Arsenal Vs Man United - And The RVD Incident [Archive]

Explain.

22-09-2003, 15:37

I believe that yesterday’s game wasn’t the most exciting between the two Premiership ‘Heavyweights’. Although, I believe Arsenal went to Old Trafford with a game plan. They in my view wanted to defend and play for a draw. This in my eyes was slightly disappointing. But considering the defensive frailties we have shown lately, it was understandable.

Moving away from the game, I would like to raise a discussion about the ‘other’ incidents that like most games, will be the talking point.

First of all, I will always back the ‘Gooners’ until I lose my voice. But NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can be said to defend the actions of, (particularly) Martin Keown and Lauren. These two players along with a few others were downright disgusting in their actions towards RVD. Although, I do believe that RVD is a player, who fakes and feigns tackles to an unbelievably exaggerated status. I also believe HE got Patrick Vieria sent off. He jumped with both knees onto his back. Then flicked out his leg. I believe Patrick was wrong to retaliate, but again RVD jumped as though his stomach was about to be pierced with a knife.

Arsenal need to sort out their discipline. But remember, had this been a Bolton Vs Wolves match. Would this become back page news for days on end? Alex Ferguson is as blind as Wenger. I say this because RVD’s attitude and behaviour towards the game is awful. He is almost determined to get others in trouble. Is he the new Robbie Savage?

Please post your opinions…

jimijazz83

22-09-2003, 15:48

I agree about RVN, and am happy to see an Arsenal fan crticise the way his teams players conducted themselves at the final whistle. What Keown, Parlour, and Lauren did was a disgrace and the exact opposite of being professional. RVN on the other hand just ignored it and left the pitch, so he should get credit for that.
Cristiano Ronaldo should also be made to wear lead weights in his boots. Anytime someone gets within a yard he is flying and diving around like he is performing in a ballet. I wish someone like Savage or Vieria would clatter him fairly winning the ball, but giving him no choice but to stay down.
A boring game made a shambles by players spitting their dummies out!!

Explain.

22-09-2003, 15:53

Yes ole Cristiano does like to smell the turf doesn't he? :D

I hope bans and fines are handed out, rather than deducted points. Considering RVD's actions were the catalyst for the problems.

Giggsy11

22-09-2003, 16:40

that was disgusting towards ruud it really upset me to see.

from what i saw van nistlerooy didn't do anything to upset anyone.

I don't think ronaldo does dive -remember these are big defenders twice the age and size of him

head

22-09-2003, 19:28

RVD -> Rob Van Dam?

Explain.

22-09-2003, 21:03

How old is that Head? :D

Ruud Van Nistelrooy.

Egophobia

22-09-2003, 22:22

from what i saw van nistlerooy didn't do anything to upset anyone.

Weeeeeel.......... Acting like he's been shot in the stomach with a shotgun from point blank distance was unnecessary, and did play a big part in Vieira's second yellow.

I agree that some of the Arsenal players overdid their "celebration", but they felt (rightfully) unfairly treated by the ref and that RVN didn't make the situation any better. The refs do infact treat Arsenal and Man Utd differently. Last time Man Utd got a red card at OT was in April 2001 against City. Yes, it was Roy Keane. And no one will tell me that Arsenal are any worse than Man Utd when it comes to tacles.

At least justice was made when he smacked that ball against the crossbar. I just had to smile:)

Egophobia

rebusrahman

22-09-2003, 22:41

The chin from...

I know RVN does dive quite a bit but I honestly don't think he tried to knee/kick Viera. He made it all as awkward as possible to get a free kick but I don't think he intentionally wanted Viera sent off. But the letter of the law is that if there is intention (does not have to be contact) then it is a bookable offence. Ok, RVN did act like a girl but Viera should have been off (and his disciplinary record reflects the fact that he does lose it occassionally!).

But I also think that the treatment of RVN after was bang out of order. There should be an enquiry into that. Respect also to RVN for his "no" reaction to it all.

You always expect controversy at this fixture now and it's a shame. Because like other people on this thread I didn't think there was much of a game behind it all.

PicturePerfect

22-09-2003, 22:56

Wow. It's funny how easily a game can turn on it's heel in the last 20 minutes or so. Generally, I thought it was a very good spirited game until the over-played acts towards the end. Before I go on, I'd like to give a special mention to K-Lo. He was brilliant again, and so determined to do well. He's really shaping up to improving his status of defender. Although, I'm still waiting for the day when commentators and the general public realise he is a defender and not being 'converted' by AW...

Let's start with the Paddy incident. RVN amuses me, he really does. The way he jumped away from Vieira's provoked kick out was laughable. It was like he was trying to evade an act on his sack from a bunch of rabid dogs. Pathetic. In all fairness, Vieira shouldn't have over-reacted like that and the second yellow was probably justified. A couple of players have got bookings for such things in the past. Vieira should have stayed clam, by not doing so, he give that moron just what he wanted, an Arsenal red card. And I'm sure that piece of video will be replayed and commented on for some time now. Wenger sums it up best, really, "Patrick should not have reacted but you punish more the consequence than the source of the problem."

Tempers flared a but towards the end, Keown did an altered 'peek-a-boo' on RVN. Lauren pushed him, Parlour had a few select words. Probably not smart moves, and certainly not the thing I want us to get involved in, again. Not much in the end, really, no punches were thrown. RVN probably did best not to get involved, as much of a diver and unsportsman like person he is, he's smart, and I'm sure there will be an FA investigation of some sort now. I guess you expect tempers to flare up between these two teams.

I wonder if Jens' 'gay' trot had anything to do with RVN missing that nothing penalty. :)

Anyone else questioning whether Nistelrooy will take anymore penaltys for United this season? Maybe it's time for Keano or Neville to step in.

I guess time will only tell. Who has Mike Riley been assigned to next week? :rolleyes:

jag87

22-09-2003, 23:57

who ever rileys been assigned to, their maybe some unclear decisions such as dubious red cards and uncertain peno's!

Explain.

23-09-2003, 14:25

RVD im opinion, acted as though he was about to be pierced through the stomach with a razor sharp knife. HIS over reaction was the WHOLE reason that everything went off.

As Arsene said, maybe the cause of the problem should be dealt with. Because in many peoples eyes Ruud cheated, and that HAS to be dealt with.

Zygalski

23-09-2003, 14:49

What does this 'RVD' stand for?

Is this supposed to be a serious debate?
Seems like Arsenal fans think that Arsenal did nothing wrong and Man United fans think that they are in the right. Less bias would help.

Maybe some people should think back to Beckham Vs Simone in world cup 98. Simple comparisons can be made. There are a few double standards going around.

Explain.

23-09-2003, 14:53

RVD = Ruud Van Nistelrooy.

Looking at it, I realise it doesn't. ;)

RVN started it IMHO. I think the Arsenal players did wrong, but he was the reason it all kicked off.

only1keano

23-09-2003, 14:59

RVD = Ruud Van Nistelrooy.

Looking at it, I realise it doesn't. ;)

RVN started it IMHO. I think the Arsenal players did wrong, but he was the reason it all kicked off.

In fairness, utd fans think ruud did nothin' wrong and arsenal fans are obviously forgetten that ruud got a yellow card for the challenge and viera got a yellow also therfore they boith were equally punished for teh incident and whats more, ruud wudnt of even got booked if viera didnt react like that...ruud was goin to shake his hand!....

lets just agree to disagree, but if i was playing with Ruud and sum1 lashed out intentionally and he didnt react or point it out to the ref...i wud be annnoyefd with him!......coz if pires did the same thing with keano...do u think he wudnt of reacted any diff????....dont think so!!...

rebusrahman

23-09-2003, 16:00

some good points there, only1keano. Especially about Pires!

Giggsy11

23-09-2003, 19:50

i don't agree-viera kicked out at stomach height so he was moving his stomach out of the way,When someone kicks out at you ,you don't just move away -U FUCKIN JUMP OU THE WAY.

Whateva u think van did it did NOT mean that the Arsenal players had to react like that

Giggsy11

23-09-2003, 19:51

Arsenal Are Fuckin Cheats

rebusrahman

23-09-2003, 19:58

What u trying to say there, Giggsy11!!!

jag87

23-09-2003, 20:54

Even arsenals own chairman seems to be ashamed of the team. Unproffesional they behaved (arsenal) and RVN missed a peno, did he deserved to be abused by the arsenal players? a 3 point deduction i feel.

PicturePerfect

23-09-2003, 21:22

Arsenal Are Fuckin Cheats

Thanks for bringing some more maturity to the discussion.

To the person who said eveyone was being biased, I don't think that's fair. Explain and I are both Arsenal fans and we've both admitted to Vieira doing wrong and the actions at the end of the game to have been silly and not neccesary.

I'm sure fines are inevitable now. Probably some bans too. But I don't think points deserved to be knocked of at all. It was five or less seconds of pumped-up emotions at the end of the game. That doesn't warrant a 3-point deduction, in my opinion. I'll reiterate, the players shouldn't have acted that way, but it wasn't a freakin' brawl now, was it? The PFA chief commented on all the players behaviour during Sunday's match and deemed it unacceptable. He's probably right. United weren't such a white as white team on Sunday either. Jens Lehmann was body-checked by Fortune and Neville threw a punch.

At least now, this exposure of RVN will bring a smile to fan around England who have fell victim to his unsportsman-like tactics. You see, I'm quite certain, that if it hadn't been Nistelrooy taking that penalty, we wouldn't have seen those post-match incidents. Imagine if Keane took it. No way would it have been the same as if RVN had missed. There's great mutual respect between Arsenal players and Keane. Just look at Paddy and Keane, their heads clang during matches, they unleash powerful tackles, but they have respect for how they play the game. Veira even had something good to say about Keane after Sunday after the latter led him off the pitch.

With RVN, it's different, I have little if no respect for how he plays the game. Great Striker? Definitely. Sportsman? No, sadly, not.

This whole fiasco reminds me of our win over Man Utd. at OT to lift the trophy in May of last year. United give a very rough performance but we had confidence in the officials, didn't get too riled up, and eventually came out worthy winners. We need more of that. To stop taking justice into our own hands, and have some faith that the refs will get things right. If we keep things quiet on the pitch, in terms of discipline, they'll be nothing to write about apart from what we do best, play football.

head

23-09-2003, 22:39

what was the score

jag87

23-09-2003, 22:42

The score was infact 0-0 Head. I cant believe that you dont know it by now and im sure that its probably been around the world by now? :p

head

23-09-2003, 23:22

oh well

PicturePerfect

23-09-2003, 23:33

Nice draw with Febernache. ;)
Şaş sent off. Wrongly, probably.

Explain.

24-09-2003, 16:46

rebusrahman

24-09-2003, 19:04

Hey! Explain! You're allowed to be here now?

PicturePerfect

24-09-2003, 19:48

It's nice having him here for these Man United and Arsenal debates. :)
Before, if you want an analogy, I was like the referee being crowded around by United players. Now, I have a linesman by my side. ;)

rebusrahman

24-09-2003, 20:03

You think I'm biased towards Utd? I don't think I am. If it had happened the other way I would have criticised Utd roundly.

PicturePerfect

24-09-2003, 20:53

I don't think I ever said or implied that. It is nice to have an Arsenal fan here because Gooners on this board are largely outweighed by United fans.

jag87

24-09-2003, 21:01

Giggsy11 - Either bring some maturity and some relevant points to this thread. Or keep you pathetic comments out of it. There is no need to swear.

I and PicturePerfect are showing no bias! OK!

I reiterate: Sort out the cause of the problem. The cause of course being Ruud.

Ruud VN did nothing wrong but miss the penalty. He never said that Vieria hit him did he? It will be interesting to hear his side of the story.

PicturePerfect

24-09-2003, 21:11

Nice little gag (http://www.arsenalshorts.com/rvncheat/) on RVN.

jag87

24-09-2003, 21:14

What a biased opinion! I bet Henrys missed more penos then our RUUD!

I Like this though! LMAO!! :)

PicturePerfect

24-09-2003, 21:30

I think a lot of goalies could save Henry's penalty kicks if they didn't dive so far to the corner. RVN usually puts them right in the corner while Henry likes to slot them just to the right or left of the middle. Perhaps Toldo figured this out and that's how he stopped the penalty in the Inter game.

jag87

24-09-2003, 21:34

RVN nistelrooy missed on sunday of course and i was just wondering how costly that might be come may 2004?

Giggsy11

24-09-2003, 21:36

well i before that game their wasn't ONE team that i disliked -even liverpool(who every man u fan hates)i didn't hate.

but after the other day i will always treat Arsenal like SCUM.

And if viera starts kicking-wether he misses or not u move out the way van nistelrooy jumped out the way to get away quickly!

PicturePerfect

24-09-2003, 21:41

RVN nistelrooy missed on sunday of course and i was just wondering how costly that might be come may 2004?

Good question but I think it would be harsh to blame one missed penalty as a the reason you didn't win the league. Of course, his tally of misses this season is at 3, if I recall, so I think it's a possibility that he won't take penalties anymore for this season. At least, in the Premiership.

Zygalski

24-09-2003, 21:48

... so I think it's a possibility that he won't take penalties anymore for this season. At least, in the Premiership.

I read that he will still take them all.

rebusrahman

24-09-2003, 22:25

Hey! Shearer missed a pen in the CL qualifier but he won't stop taking them? Owen missed quite a few and that prob won't stop him? I don't see that RVN would voluntarily stop and I don't think Ferguson would take him off 'em.

Likewise for Henry and Wenger?

bantampride

24-09-2003, 22:53

I thought the whole situation was, to quote Nick Hancock, despicable, upsetting, and most importantly, very very funny!

Seriously, I hope some bans will be placed on the arsenal players, particularly parlour, lauren and keown, those three behaved like a bunch of adoloscent tossers in the playground. It sickens me that all 3 have represented their country in some of their lives.

However, the whole situation looks like two little girls with handbags out compared to what happened in 1990 (or 1991?) in the same fixture, when both teams had points deducted - Did anyone see that on the Premiership on Monday? Now thats what I call a brawl! Good old Choccy McClair sticking his boot in! Anders Limpar running away like a fairy!

PicturePerfect

25-09-2003, 02:13

Anders Limpar running away like a fairy!

Hey! We have a tougher Swede now. :)

His name is Freddie! Freddie! FREDDIE!

Okay, I'm calm now. On the penalty situation, I was just speculating because Ferguson did a similar thing to Dwight Yorke after a couple or more penalty misses. I think Keane (since he will only play the 'big games' that could rule him out this time) or G. Neville took them from then on, at least for some part of the season. I'm not entirely sure on this so don't quote me. Of course, if this was true, it could very well have been Yorke's decision to not take anymore penalties. Similar to how Dunn didn't feel upto taking the second penalty for Leeds against BC, except on a much grander scale.

Well, I'll be glad if RVN does to decide to still take the penalties.
As it stands:

Nistelrooy 0 - 1 Crossbar.

Lord Shrimpeh

25-09-2003, 02:28

Thing is if all the players get banned (as they have been charged), the entire arsenal defense will be suspended..... for chelsea. That should be amusing, better than points docked!

jag87

25-09-2003, 03:17

Man Utd players were also charged: Ronaldo and giggs.

Manchester United will launch a vigorous defence of under-fire duo Ryan Giggs and Cristiano Ronaldo after they were charged by the FA.

The pair were both charged on Wednesday for their part in Sunday's Old Trafford fracas which overshadowed the 0-0 draw with Arsenal.

While some may argue United have been treated leniently compared to the Gunners, who have six players facing a possible total 21-match ban, club officials do not believe any of their players has a case to answer.

They have already notified their intention to take legal advice and will also involve manager Sir Alex Ferguson in discussions before determining what action to take next.

Like the Arsenal players, Giggs and Ronaldo have 14 days in which to respond to the charges, which both allege improper conduct, in Giggs' case for 'a confrontation with Lauren after the final whistle', in Ronaldo's for 'confronting Martin Keown at the conclusion of the match'.

In addition, England international Phil Neville has been warned about his future conduct.

"We have received the details of the charges from the FA and we are currently reviewing them internally with our lawyers, the manager and the players involved,'' a United statement read.

"Until that review is completed, the club will be making no further comment.''

jag87

25-09-2003, 03:24

Here are the reasons why they were charged:

The FA's website revealed that the full charge sheet is:

* Arsenal - charged with "failing to ensure the proper behaviour of their players".

* Lauren - two counts of improper conduct for "confronting Ruud van Nistelrooy after Patrick Vieira's sending-off, and for confronting Ryan Giggs after the final whistle" and two counts of violent behaviour for "kicking out at Quinton Fortune following the penalty award and for forcibly pushing van Nistelrooy in the back following the final whistle".

* Keown - one charge of improper conduct for "confronting van Nistelrooy following the penalty miss" and one charge of violent behaviour "for striking van Nistelrooy on the back of the head following the final whistle".

* Parlour - one charge of improper conduct for "confronting van Nistelrooy after the final whistle" and a further charge of violent behaviour for "grabbing at Gary Neville from behind shortly afterwards".

* Cole - one charge of improper conduct for "his involvement in a confrontation with Cristiano Ronaldo after the final whistle".

* Lehmann - one charge of improper conduct for "confronting referee Steve Bennett after Patrick Vieira's second yellow card and for then persistently seeking to confront van Nistelrooy".

* Vieira - one charge of improper conduct for "failing to leave the field of play following his sending-off, and for instead seeking to confront van Nistelrooy and engaging in a verbal exchange with fourth official Neale Barry".

* Giggs - one charge of improper conduct for "his involvement in a confrontation with Lauren after the match had ended".

* Ronaldo - one charge of improper conduct for "confronting Martin Keown at the conclusion of the match".

Zygalski

25-09-2003, 15:21

I reiterate: Sort out the cause of the problem. The cause of course being Ruud.

If this is the case then gooners would have no problem on some sort of punishment for Pires who was a much bigger cheat against Portsmouth. The only difference was that the Portsmouth players didn't behave like animals afterwards.

Explain.

25-09-2003, 19:06

Ruud VN did nothing wrong but miss the penalty. He never said that Vieria hit him did he? It will be interesting to hear his side of the story.

It is obviously impossible to discuss this with the majority of Man United supporters. Most of you seem to have clouded your judgement and forgot important issues, because Man U are YOUR club.

If you watch the incident, you will notice that Ruud moves one of his legs away, then jumps. After he had moved his leg he was nowhere near the kick. This is not an opinion. It is obvious and clear when you watch the incident. After he jumps, he then turns to look at te Ref. Why? I will tell you why. He does it to make the Referee make a decision.

If everyone looks at why the Arsenal players could have possibly been that annoyed that they would act as they did. JUST LOOK at what caused it.

Explain.

25-09-2003, 19:17

If this is the case then gooners would have no problem on some sort of punishment for Pires who was a much bigger cheat against Portsmouth. The only difference was that the Portsmouth players didn't behave like animals afterwards.

Ruud Van Nistelrooy isn't being punished. Whether he cheated is debateable. Unlike the Ruud incident.

Zygalski

25-09-2003, 19:18

Did you write what you meant to write there?
(post 46)

Explain.

25-09-2003, 19:27

Why is my spelling wrong... ?;)

If I am honest, I think he cheated. But maybe not everyone on the Portsmouth team thought he did?

And to be honest can you compare Portsmouth Vs Arsenal and Man U Vs Arsenal? Not in my opinion. Everyone knows that both teams are more pysched up to play each other. Therefore of course tensions will rise.

Zygalski, do you think Ruud is innocent? And that the Arsenal players were not provoked by some pathetic idiot, looking to see a fellow professional sent off?

Zygalski

25-09-2003, 19:40

Doesn't matter what I think. The FA have charged who they see fit to charge and there's not much arguing to be done about that.

Ruud got a yellow card for the incident with Vieira and it's unfortunate that it was Vieira's second yellow. If it had been his first, then all this wouldn't have happened. So Ruud was punished as much as he should have been.

Could you have imagined any player ignoring all that provocation that took place after his miss and at the final whistle? There's no justification for that kind of behaviour be thrown at one person by so many. Most people would have reacted to it.

The whole world knows that Pires cheated. Maybe some of the Portsmouth players couldn't see exactly what happened seeing as Pires is so subtle in how he did it. It fooled the ref so it probably fooled them too. When they saw the replay, you can bet they reacted differently but it was too late.

You're still talking in a very biased way and it doesn't help the discussion much.

Explain.

25-09-2003, 19:50

How am I biased. You have said yourself, that Pires was a subtle. Ruud on the other hand was not.

I have said what happened after the game was wrong. I have also Pires cheated.

If I was 'biased' would I have said that?

People too often judge everything on what they see. Too often people refuse to punish the instigator. Ruud will get away scot free. I personally hope they throw the towel at Ruud and Pires.
Though it won't happen.

bantampride

25-09-2003, 20:42

This is what the Manchester Evening News had to say after hearing that Ronaldo and Giggs were to be charged along with the Gooners -

'Its a good job the FA aren't ruling this planet: "We'll nick Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, but we'd better run Churchill and Roosevelt in as well - after all they did get involved"'

-Made me chuckle

rebusrahman

25-09-2003, 21:14

Bloody stoopid I think! Ruud van Roosevelt!

jag87

25-09-2003, 21:17

ruud van roosevelt?

rebusrahman

25-09-2003, 21:34

Well if Arsenal equate to hitler, etc then ruud and co must be the allies?

bantampride

25-09-2003, 21:42

I think the article was a tad biased, after all it was a Manc paper.

Ruud Van Roosevelt indeed! LOL!

rebusrahman

25-09-2003, 21:59

I thought all papers were meant to be impartial observers of news ;- )

jag87

25-09-2003, 23:34

Ruud is innocent and i stay by that!

head

26-09-2003, 00:13

arsenal players attacked ruud. he didn't do anything

jag87

26-09-2003, 02:46

So it makes him the innocent party and arsene wenger is to up tight to admit that. I give him credit though as he finally admitted his team were stupid in their actions.

PicturePerfect

26-09-2003, 18:41

Article here (http://www.anr.uk.com/articles/i-2003-09-24-17-11-23.html) pointing out a few things many of us probably weren't aware of.

On the Pires incident. Yes, he probably did dive but, my God, has it been overblown. This was probably the first time Pires has been involved in such a thing and he was singled out for criticism when other players such as Ruud van Nistelrooy, Michael Owen, Christiano Ronaldo and Kevin Phillips, are guilty of offences just as blatant, if not more so.

Pires may have dived, but unlike United's Dutch striker, he's never involved himself in the cowardly stamping and over the top challenges, nor has he ever punched a fellow professional in full view of the TV cameras (an incident overlooked as Arsenal winning the title at Old Trafford was punishment enough for the PLC).

Anyway, that's enough of the Pires situation. They're some more news on the Sunday incident. I've posted my thoughts in the 'Are FA Anti-Arsenal thread?'. Go there if you're bothered.