View Full Version : Extreme Music Thread (Grind, Death/Black/Doom/Sludge Metal, Hardcore, Thrash)
I was wondering if anyone on here listens to heavy heavy music none of this Metallica, Iron Maiden piss
Anyone into...
Hardcore, Death Metal, Black Metal, Thrash, Grindcore?
Personally I'm into a little bit of each been getting into a band called Abigail Williams Black metal-esque with lots of synth and keys, fucking amazing!
If you like heavy music name some bands your into, i think alot of people here like Rock and Hip/Hop and Rap though.
I've been in some bands links in my siggy, i was young and they're poorly produced but all a hobby :)
none of this Metallica, Iron Maiden piss?
Sorry man, You totally lost me there:realmad:
But anyway, in light of the topic,
My brother and sister both listen to Bring Me The Horizon, which inevitably leads to me listening to them.... Ever heard of them? They're quite good...
And i'm going to throw some Industril metal at you, and say I think Rammstein are ridiculously sick at what they do....
WE ALL LIVE IN AMERICAAAAA
Haha yeah man BMTH are good :] New album is cracking Track 3 'It was written in blood' total tune!
Last time I saw them was them touring there first album some good mosh on the go at that gig :]
I love my beatdowns!
Yeah man, some heavy shit on there
Sykes is such an awesome front man, and coincidentally a sex idol in birmingham
He is a good frontman, he's a sex god everywhere :p I don't see it haha
http://www.myspace.com/abigailwilliams check that shit!
Sorry man, You totally lost me there:realmad:
But anyway, in light of the topic,
My brother and sister both listen to Bring Me The Horizon, which inevitably leads to me listening to them.... Ever heard of them? They're quite good...
And i'm going to throw some Industril metal at you, and say I think Rammstein are ridiculously sick at what they do....
WE ALL LIVE IN AMERICAAAAA
Now, I saw Bring Me The Horizon at Reading and I wanted to rip my eardrums out through my arsehole they were so bad.
In my opinion that is... ;)
I like Rammstein though.
Yeah I werent too keen on them at first, and I felt like that, but after listening to some of the songs and appreciating the guitar work that they pull off, I think they're a good band...
I really wanna go see rammstein but I never get around to it man, my favourite song by them has gotta be 'Sonne' Absolute choonage
I first heard Rammstein on Kerrang! Tv years back Sonne was the video they do write good songs I just grew out of it. Quite anthemic at times.
Yeah the thing with bands like BMTH it takes a few listens i remember listening to a band called Dillinger Escape Plan who played Leeds/Reading mainstage a few years back (The singer shat in a bag, through it in the crwod, the crowd through it back he rubbed the shit over his chest) They were noise to my ears at first then i grew to love them.
Yes people should appreciate the technicality of some of the music that gets played these days.
I Killed the Prom Queen.
They've spilt up but I saw them in London when they were still going. They got some awesome songs.
Devil Wears Prada have this wicked cover of the song "Still Fly" that I really like.
I like Bring Me The Horizon too.
I fucking love The Devil Wears Prada can't wait for their new album i love the drums and synth in particular, wasn't into IKTPQ you know of Parkway Drive, Miggy?
Yeah Parkway Drive are awesome too. Pretty good hardcore scene in Australia.
Yeah there's a fair few cracking bands like Thy art is murder, The red shore. Never been into IKTPQ or Parkway though :s
I can't get enough of IKTPQ and Parkway. The lead singer of Parkway Drive was in the Australian Big Brother, I think he got himself kicked out because the band were going on tour. He thought he'd be voted out sooner.
You heard of Darkest Hour?
uA - 1905
26-01-2009, 19:51
These are the fags you're talking about?
http://www.rialtotheatre.com/images/events/Bring_Me_The_Horizon_dark_vers ion.jpg
Shit, I've seen women that are tougher than these types.
Yeah thats BMTH
They're young, leave em alone....
Some sick guitar skills though, and the one in the front is an awesome frontman, as Ive said above
They get so much grief but at the end of the day they're touring the world and playing what they love, I wish I could do that!
Is that what sort of music you would play if you could play then dotty?
I'd probably be more of an indie man myself, but you never know what style you would end up adopting
Is that what sort of music you would play if you could play then dotty?
I'd probably be more of an indie man myself, but you never know what style you would end up adopting
Aye man if you check The colour pink is gay link on my sig that was my last band i left them though, you might like some of the guitaring there's shreds and finger tapping :)
Wow that is heavy lol
Was you the bass player? is that why theyre still looking for one?
Yeah man i played bass i'm playing one last show and i'm going fucking mental definately smashing my bass up for that show fucking love going nuts live, scaring people is amazing! :)
Jonno394
26-01-2009, 20:10
Why not post some examples of this music with youtube videos so that people like myself, who are not that into the whole hardcore scene, can sample it's "delights" without having to make an effort.
I do like Atreyu, The Devil Wears Prada and Girls Aloud though.
What's the Youtube embedding code?
It'll be to the right of every video
Dillinger Escape plan = Math metal with Jazzy parts :)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/r-lxwlgyhhA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/r-lxwlgyhhA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Everytime I die - The logic of crocodiles
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HdvoBD0NOmA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HdvoBD0NOmA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
The devil wears prada
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RwVHgj5a68&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RwVHgj5a68&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Oh i thought you needed the [yt] type tags lol
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SouRJ4m06Rk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SouRJ4m06Rk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Bring me the Horizon - Chelsea Smile
I think this is their best song, give this a listen Jonno
Dillinger Escape plan = Math metal with Jazzy parts :)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/r-lxwlgyhhA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/r-lxwlgyhhA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Everytime I die - The logic of crocodiles
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HdvoBD0NOmA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HdvoBD0NOmA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
The devil wears prada
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RwVHgj5a68&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1RwVHgj5a68&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Oh i thought you needed the [yt] type tags lol
It's not something I'd look into much, but as a Musician I can appreciate how good some of them are technically. The drummer in the first vid is awesome.
The last vid has some nice sections in there. It's just the shouting/screaming I'm not into, cos I like the music.
A few of my favourites
Darkest Hour - With a Thousand Words to Say But One
RPaQVTSzhA4
I Killed the Prom Queen - Say Goodbye
_JtOSM62E04
Five Finger Death Punch - Ashes
pKRedQTGSnA
FutebolArte
26-01-2009, 21:24
meh.. just think that shit all too contrived... a bunch of rich angry people??? yeah right... tough guys yelling at the top of their lungs with no technical musical backing (usually).
gimme some coltrane on heroin anyday, broke ass junkie, but the motherfucker had sole, and was REAL
I love heavy music and I'm far from rich lol
I think people seriously struggle realising how hard it is to be a decent singer let alone a great singer when it comes to screaming, it zaps your energy right down plus moving around on stage it's brutal.
Hmm I think you've never played an instrument before most of the songs i listen to in about a 3 minute song have more riffs in it than a whole rock bands album would. Odd time signatures and polyrhythms it's hard to get your head round lots of stuff.
Just because people shout doesn't mean their angry either.
uA - 1905
26-01-2009, 22:08
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/igJAJV-ckIk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/igJAJV-ckIk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
I prefer this by Dillinger Escape Plan. Less vocals they have, the better.
You should donwload 'Miss Machine' and 'Ire Works' they still have the odd crazy tracks but it's more chilled out with singing, it's not too bad.
Mouth of the Architect, Rosetta, Earthtone9, early Isis, recent Cult of Luna.
dotty, may I add sludge metal to the thread title?
Yeah sure, i prefer a little bit of 'doom' though :p
I couldnt really find anywhere else to say this, so i'll say this here lol I'm sure you wont mind ;)
Has anyone listened to the slipknot album 'All hope is gone' ? The newest one...
I think its a great album, one of the best metal albums this year i'd say....
Psychosocial is an absolute head banger man...and slipknot show their versatility again with the songs 'Till we Die' and 'Vermillion Pt.2'
Great CD, one i'd reccommend to everyone who will listen :D
It's been out a while, right? If it's the one I heard then I wasn't much of a fan. I think I've got it, I may give it another go. Might be a good'n for the gym.
Yeah it has been out a while, I've only just bought it though, and i'm loving it.
So many sick guitar riffs, 7 is an awesome guitar player
Yeah it has been out a while, I've only just bought it though, and i'm loving it.
So many sick guitar riffs, 7 is an awesome guitar player
Yeah it's been out for a while, it's ok i really like 'Self titled' and 'Iowa' more though.
Number 7 Mike was a guitar teacher before Slipknot went huge.
Wow really, imagine getting lessons off him :crymore:
Wow really, imagine getting lessons off him :crymore:
To be honest from what i've seen most of Slipknot members they look better with masks haha!
Oh yeah if anyone is into..Gallows and Every Time I Die you should check out.
www.myspace.com/lowerthanatlantis southern rock with a nice punky edge to it.
haha yeah true say, I like the Gallows, I shall check lower than atlantis out sometime
wrathchild_uk
03-02-2009, 22:51
I used to be into death metal quite alot back in the day..was actually in a death metal band but that was ages ago now...
Nice one, any links to hear some music?
wrathchild_uk
04-02-2009, 23:46
Nah i dont sadly it was back in 2002 so a fair few years ago..if anyone is into star wars and death metal you should check out Anchorhead
www.myspace.com/anchorheaddarthmetal
A lot of the new 'extreme' metal isn't that new. To be honest most of the new stuff does nothing for me.
Back in the day though (and still dragged out of the draw from time to time), old school Sepultura, Coven, Possessed, Cannibal Corpse, Vio-Lence, Death Angel, Morbid Angel (one of the best live bands I've seen), Godflesh, Fudge Tunnel (Hate songs in E Minor - superb album), Ministry, Entombed, Obituary, Atrophy, Amorphis, Fetish 69, Disharmonic Orchestra... just a few from my collection!
All time fave though has to be the Laibach remixes of Sworn to the Black & God of Emptiness by Morbid Angel done back in 1994. 100% better than anything i've heard since.
Yeah i'd agree to an extent thing is i've listened to my fair share of Death metal and for me it gets so repeditive after just a few songs. New bands these days get ripped for being in a trend but they do make some heavy music like some bands i hear get ripped but it's heavier than Cannibal Corpse and i've heard their most recent album and it's not even that heavy, saying that if i want heavy just go for Grind :) Origin fucking own!
Did anyone hear Cryptopsy' last album? :laugh:
Admit the Corpse have 'lightened' their mood. Their cover of Zero the Hero is still awesome though (it's on Hammer Smashed Face, or Skull... cannot remember & my vinyl is in the attic)
I've moved away slowly from my Death/Thrash roots over the last ten years. Broadened the horizons so to speak, so i'm not that up to date with the latest stuff. My ears are however always open to new experiences.
I was thinking about this today about how music seems so generic etc. I think it's easy to answer it's todays easy access to everything. Back in the late 80's and through the 90's bands would become a success from getting signed through a major label. Not too many independant labels. Anyway now these days bands can get an EP or LP recorded easier and cheaper and pay a lot less and more quality purely because of technology. My band just last month recorded our song through a mac, Line 6 Pod and a few drum mics we rented for the drums and that recording which took like 2 hours kicks the arse of rough demos back 20 years.
So i suppose what i'm saying is that with Myspace, Bebo, last.fm, Facebook which bands use it's so easy to get exposed play more shows, do tours without a major label backing. This also makes it better for scenes to connect for shows and bands are more out there, so it seems like all these bands are just generic but i'm sure if this was in the 80's it'd be the same thing lots more bands get noticed but a few gems always show. There are lots of good new bands out there remember with music progressing some things grow slightly more limited. It's pretty hard to make something unique. I think lots of band don't get deserved mentions but they can be really technical which is something that has lacked in the past some really good talented people out in bands these days.
And i think the standard of some genres like metal has grown heavier for instance bands like Linkin Park etc used to be the standard of big bands now you get Bring me the horizon who are a lot more heavy i think it's good, especially for acceptance of people who are 'Alternative' in todays society.
Fuck what a speel!
Anyone heard a UK band called Narcosis insane grind, heavily influenced by Napalm Death they split after their second album but just moved onto Relapse records, which was cool.
http://www.myspace.com/narcosisgrind
This band are a little like Suicide silence some cracking blasts in their tunes.
www.myspace.com/immoralityuk
Probably one of the best British bands around right now just released their 3rd album, tech metal
www.myspace.com/architectsuk
Hey thought i'd post my old band which i left a few weeks ago, i recorded the bass in the two songs check them out at.. www.myspace.com/thecolourpinkisgay
I.N Extasy
17-04-2009, 13:09
I was thinking about this today about how music seems so generic etc. I think it's easy to answer it's todays easy access to everything. Back in the late 80's and through the 90's bands would become a success from getting signed through a major label. Not too many independant labels. Anyway now these days bands can get an EP or LP recorded easier and cheaper and pay a lot less and more quality purely because of technology. My band just last month recorded our song through a mac, Line 6 Pod and a few drum mics we rented for the drums and that recording which took like 2 hours kicks the arse of rough demos back 20 years.
So i suppose what i'm saying is that with Myspace, Bebo, last.fm, Facebook which bands use it's so easy to get exposed play more shows, do tours without a major label backing. This also makes it better for scenes to connect for shows and bands are more out there, so it seems like all these bands are just generic but i'm sure if this was in the 80's it'd be the same thing lots more bands get noticed but a few gems always show. There are lots of good new bands out there remember with music progressing some things grow slightly more limited. It's pretty hard to make something unique. I think lots of band don't get deserved mentions but they can be really technical which is something that has lacked in the past some really good talented people out in bands these days.
And i think the standard of some genres like metal has grown heavier for instance bands like Linkin Park etc used to be the standard of big bands now you get Bring me the horizon who are a lot more heavy i think it's good, especially for acceptance of people who are 'Alternative' in todays society.
Fuck what a speel!
This is a plausible argument.
However, you just can't help but notice the bands that have less to offer.
I also find Bring Me The Horizon to be terrible. Five Finger Death Punch on the other hand...:smug:
Oh, and as far as I am concerned Metallica are a thrash act (see first post)...:erm:
Didn't really know where else to put this, so I thought here would do.
Bought Trivium's 'the crusade' the other day.
Its brilliantly put together, i've listened to it about 100 times already lol Its really realy good. You can tell just by listening to them that they know their shit, some of the solo's are amazing not to mention the breakdowns and the riffs they come out with.
I definately recommend it to everyone who happens to be a metal fan.
I.N Extasy
09-05-2009, 10:48
Didn't really know where else to put this, so I thought here would do.
Bought Trivium's 'the crusade' the other day.
Its brilliantly put together, i've listened to it about 100 times already lol Its really realy good. You can tell just by listening to them that they know their shit, some of the solo's are amazing not to mention the breakdowns and the riffs they come out with.
I definately recommend it to everyone who happens to be a metal fan.
I'll give it a try. What other metal bands do you listen to?
Also does anyone here listen to Dark Tranquility?
Not a lot if i'm honest. But I heard a lot of Triviums stuff, they've got like about 5 albums.
I'm not too in touch with the whole metal scene though. I do love this Trivium album though, you'll like it I reckon. Another thing is that it actually feels like an album, rather than a bunch of singles on one CD.
Oh, and as far as I am concerned Metallica are a thrash act (see first post)...:erm:
Were a thrash band at first... now a commercial sell out.
See early Anthrax for true thrash.
Early Sepultura had good Thrash most albums Pre 90's is a good shot.
Hi all,
Metal is one of favourite music genres and since it's in the thread title, I'll post this question up.
Can anyone please type up any totally quality Metal albums that they love very much, I have Metal albums (Iron Maiden, Metallica, Savatage, Megadeth, etc.) but I'm not satisified yet with the number of top albums in my Downloads folder.
Thanks.
One day on now from my question, can anyone suggest anything? Please :)
Try some Rammstein and Slipknot. :nath:
Yeah man, Rammstein are fucking awesome :nath:
'Sonne' & 'Amerika' :nath:
Just a few faves of mine (album/band):
Dirt - Alice in Chains
Coma of Souls - Kreator
Cowboys From Hell - Pantera
Speak English Or Die - SOD
Seasons in the Abyss - Slayer
Hammerheart - Bathory
Wolverine Blues - Entombed
+ any Anthrax pre '93 as Sound of White Noise on is shit.
If you like Evanesence type stuff then try Lacuna Coil, fairly samey but OK non the less. Liking Bullet for my Valentine as well at the mo :rolleyes:
Fairly mixed & light selection based on what you already have. Will save heavier stuff for now
Thanks to everyone who has replied, especially fick that's quite a list. :) I'll have a bash on last.fm sometime and see if they have any of those you've mentioned entirely, does my head in sometimes when they only have a few full tracks in all the album =[
If anyone comes up with anything / finds a Metal album they really love, please say so in here so I can check it out, helps out everyone else too.
I'm liking Audioslave - Audioslave quite a lot, some crackers on there (Cochise, I am the Highway, Bring 'em back alive, Gasoline are great), all the album is good infact.
I.N Extasy
24-05-2009, 11:00
Not a lot if i'm honest. But I heard a lot of Triviums stuff, they've got like about 5 albums.
I'm not too in touch with the whole metal scene though. I do love this Trivium album though, you'll like it I reckon. Another thing is that it actually feels like an album, rather than a bunch of singles on one CD.
I forgot about that. :faceplm:
I've actually listened to a Trivium song or two and their cover of Master of Puppets and I wasn't impressed.
Were a thrash band at first... now a commercial sell out.
See early Anthrax for true thrash.
Never been any further than ...and Justice for All. Actually no, I tried listening to ReLoad and thought it was crap.
"Give me fuel! Give me fire! Give me that which I desire!"
If you like Evanesence type stuff then try Lacuna Coil, fairly samey but OK non the less. Liking Bullet for my Valentine as well at the mo :rolleyes:
Berry, you may want to look into Nightwish as well. :)
You and Bullet?! :|
I like The Poison, it's not all that but a good listen non the less. Some of the lyrics are downright terrible though! The rhythm guitarist/vocalist is too much of a whiny bastard. Get rid.
Thanks to everyone who has replied, especially fick that's quite a list. :) I'll have a bash on last.fm sometime and see if they have any of those you've mentioned entirely, does my head in sometimes when they only have a few full tracks in all the album =[
Use YouTube? On another note; I've read many a praise about Spotify.
EDIT:
Can anyone recommend some good stuff other than Ace of Spades by Motorhead?
You and Bullet?! :|
Aye, suprised me as well. Nice mix of a light death, thrash & and not too annoying nu-metal. Scream,Aim Fire is actually a pretty good album.
EDIT:
Can anyone recommend some good stuff other than Ace of Spades by Motorhead?
Same sort of stuff?
When online, go to www.rockradio.co.uk/manchester (http://www.rockradio.co.uk/manchester/) and selelct "listen live". They play a fantastic selection of classic rock from Motorhead to Manowar. Quite a few more modern bits thrown is as well.
Well worth a listen & a good place to pick up some music inspiration from yesteryear.
I.N Extasy
24-05-2009, 11:22
Aye, suprised me as well. Nice mix of a light death, thrash & and not too annoying nu-metal. Scream, Aim, Fire is actually a pretty good album.
Same sort of stuff?
When online, go to www.rockradio.co.uk/manchester (http://www.rockradio.co.uk/manchester/) and selelct "listen live". They play a fantastic selection of classic rock from Motorhead to Manowar. Quite a few more modern bits thrown is as well.
Well worth a listen & a good place to pick up some music inspiration from yesteryear.
Have you listened to Say Goodnight? Would you agree that is somewhat of a watered down version of Fade to Black? :unsure:
Thanks for reminding me of that site. Should keep me entertained a good while. :happy:
Have you listened to Say Goodnight? Would you agree that is somewhat of a watered down version of Fade to Black? :unsure:
:laugh: Never thought about it like that & I guess you're right!
Back to the heavier stuff...
..what are anyones thoughts on Disharmonic Orchestra? Heard 'Just a though' the other day & wondered it it's worth checking out other stuff..?
I.N Extasy
08-06-2009, 06:11
Opeth anyone?
Fick could you link me to some music.
And NI i've heard them of them for years but not actually listened too aren't they Melodic death metal?
I've been listening to the American Me 'Heat' album fucking amazing!
tkhIwiu0-lU
Fick could you link me to some music.
And NI i've heard them of them for years but not actually listened too aren't they Melodic death metal?
I've been listening to the American Me 'Heat' album fucking amazing!
tkhIwiu0-lU
There's a good website I have visited full of various metal genres... can't remember the name as I have it saved as a favourite on my PC at home. I'll pm you later...
I.N Extasy
09-06-2009, 11:57
Fick could you link me to some music.
And NI i've heard them of them for years but not actually listened too aren't they Melodic death metal?
I've been listening to the American Me 'Heat' album fucking amazing!
tkhIwiu0-lU
Black Rose Immortal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98SaFvW-JyQ&feature=PlayList&p=036B2BFC9CCAF8C9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=40)
Progressive Death. :\
WE ARE THE FIRE!!
:nath: :nath: :nath:
I.N Extasy
24-09-2009, 05:23
You lot listen to black or death metal? Fick?
Been meaning to get some of Bathory's earlier work.
My new band just got started fucked up a rough arse song from our second praccy this was like the 3rd take with the singer who had just came into the room to jam.
www.myspace.com/plaguevessel
Sure nobody will like it hahaha.
My new band just got started fucked up a rough arse song from our second praccy this was like the 3rd take with the singer who had just came into the room to jam.
www.myspace.com/plaguevessel
Sure nobody will like it hahaha.
Would be interesting to hear a clearer recording. Not bad for an early practice for a new group though, heard a hell of a lot worse on stage!
Only thing I'd say is that you need a hook. A sound to differentiate yourselves from the rest It's a good old-school death sound, but with something to lift it you may get more attention... If you have on other tracks then cool, ignore me!! Just the musings of an ageing rocker.
Lothanos
04-02-2010, 18:19
^as above^
You won't start out perfect and its all about devloping the sounds that work for you.
Also enjoyed the America me tube above. cheers!
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