View Full Version : PES 2010: New Season, All New Game ??
They say "New Season, All New Game" -- an ambitious statement, but one that doesn't holds enough weight.
I think Konami is genuinely working to improve, and this latest press release is proof of that. Their whole approach seems different, more serious and detailed, more ambitious. It sounds promising..
But when you do read it a few times, you get to notice that some "Key Improvements" are missing:
* No mention of "All-New Stats".
* No mention of "Completely reworked Passing".
* No mention of a "New Engine".
I don't want to be skeptical but.. improved Graphics, improved Movements, improved AI, etc, etc.. Haven't we heard that before??
All the "Evolutions" of PES have been the same: movements, graphics, one or two new animations, and tweaking and balancing the gameplay.
Everyone knows about the "fluid and addictive gameplay" of the Older PES versions.. But something many fans overlook is the fact that, in the PS2 days, PES was well ahead of FIFA in terms of STATS. The Substance those Stats provided was a key factor in The King's dominance.
Is it a good sign of progress?? The FACT that PES4 and PES09 have the same exact set of Stats and Special Abilities.. is this progress?
Pro Evolution was appealing because it was more Realistic and Challenging than FIFA, FIFA was labeled as the "arcade-game" and PES was labeled as the more "realistic simulation".
What happened??
Pro Evolution Soccer went from "The King" to "Arcade-Mess" in less than 3 years.
This can happen when you keep doing the same things for long enough.. the same so-called "evolutions" every year, this was not going to work forever.
We still have the same one-dimensional Stats.. Stats like "Dribbling Accuracy". Should a Single Stat such as "Dribbling Accuracy" cover for:
* Cutting the Ball.
* Step Overs.
* Shielding the Ball.
* Body Feints.
* First touch
* Flicking the Ball.
* 360ª Roulette and 180ª spins
* Nutmeg.
* Avoiding Tackles.
This are all different abilities/attributes and therefore should be Individual Stats. Why is Konami still using out of date Stats?
It gets Unrealistic whenever I see Leo Messi doing Step Overs like Cristiano Ronaldo. Or Carlos Tevez doing some Outrageous Roulette, which he probably has never done in real-life.
Riquelme not doing any of his trademark South American Dribbles with the Sole of the Foot.
It is plain and inaccurate to have everyone from Leo Messi to Cristiano Ronaldo to Riquelme -DRIBBLING- in the same exact identical fashion. It's unrealistic and disappointing.
We need to have more Specific Dribbling Stats that work differently in every different situation. For example:
Shielding the Ball - The higher this attribute the better the player will hold the ball when going at Slow Pace or when in the Middle of the pitch.
The “Shielding the Ball” STAT would define very fundamental differences.. players like Zinedine Zidane, Carlos Valderrama, and Juan Roman Riquelme would have a great “Shielding Ability” that allows them to hold the ball and maintain possession at a Slow Pace – A very unusual and difficult thing to do.
People who do not play Real Football cannot fully appreciate just how difficult it is to hold and maintain possession whilst going at a slow pace. Only a handful of players have that unique ability.
Players like Kaka and Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard cannot do that, they need to run in order to maintain possession. They don’t have the Technique required to maintain possession at a slow pace.
Some players are better at “Close Control Slow Dribbling” whereas other players are better at “High Speed Dribbling”. This Fundamental Aspect of Football is completely non-existent in PES09.
To this I can add obvious improvements, such as changing the Old "Shot Accuracy" Stat and make it more Realistic and Specific. Dividing it into Stats like:
* Long Range Shot.
* Close Range Shot.
* Chip Shot.
Taking the old "Shot Technique" Stat and elaborating on it:
* Shot Composure.
* Shot Technique.
Why??
Shot Technique would determine the actual shooting technique of an individual, if he can shot right after dribbling, if he can shot accurately at high speeds, etc, etc.. On the other hand "Shot Composure" would determine how the player shots the ball under pressure.
One "Shot Technique" Stat cannot be that specific.
Running Attributes??
You have players who are faster in Short Sprints and Small Spaces.. take Diego Maradona for example, and compare him with Thierry Henry.
Thierry Henry (in his prime) had great Acceleration and Top Speed, but he was never comfortable in small spaces, he was not that good in short explosive sprints. He never had that "explosive burst of acceleration" that The Brazilian Ronaldo had.
This is why I think that the game needs a New Stat to complement with the Older Ones. We only have "Top Speed", "Acceleration", and "Agility". Not good enough anymore.
There is the old "Acceleration" Stat that determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed. Why not elaborate on it and make it deeper and more realistic?
Like for example, include a Stat for determining an individual's "Explosiveness” when he goes from “Stationary to Running".
The more explosive the individual the better he'll be in short sprints, in small spaces, when changing pace, or when shifting from stationary to sprinting.
Meaning that once the player shifts a few gears the "Acceleration" Stat should then take over. But in the Lower Gears, or when "changing from stationary to sprinting" the "Explosiveness" Stat would be much more relevant.
In other words, when going at a Slow Pace the “Explosiveness” would be more important. And when going at a 70% sprint the “Acceleration” Stat is more important.
The old "Agility" Stat simply doesn't cut it in this respect, because agility really haves nothing to do with "explosiveness". There are plenty of world class players, who are agile and fast, but do not posses that same "burst of speed" when going from "stationary to moving".
An individual can be agile and fast, but if he doesn't haves that "explosiveness" he won't make the most out of that agility and pace. Or at least won't be as much of a threat as he would be if he was an explosive player.
Compare the Brazilian Ronaldo with Cristiano Ronaldo.. The Brazilian Ronaldo didn't seemed as "agile" or as "quick with his feet" as Cristiano Ronaldo -BUT- R9 had an "explosive burst of speed" that made him lethal.
You can make the same comparison between Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi.. both have good Pace and Agility, but Leo Messi haves "an explosive burst of acceleration" that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't haves.
Leo Messi doesn't necessarily haves a higher Top Speed, but he goes from 0 to 60 like a Ferrari.
Whereas on the other hand, Ronaldo haves more or less the same Top Speed, the same Agility, good Acceleration once he is going at a quick stride.. but he needs more Space and Time to develop that velocity. He cannot shift from a Stationary stance to a 100% sprint like Messi or Maradona.
Acceleration, Agility, and Top Speed are simply NOT enough to define such differences.
Passing Stats??
Short Pass Accuracy, Short Pass Speed, Long Pass Accuracy, Long Pass Speed.. it's just not good enough for a Next Gen Simulation.
How can I say that one player is better at "Short Ground Passes" whereas another individual is better at "Long Ground Passes"?? How can I have that with the current Passing Stats?
Why not improve it?
* Short Ground Pass.
* Long Ground Pass.
* Short Lobbed Pass.
* Long Lobbed Pass.
Still only 4 Stats, but better organized and more specific. Those 4 Stats would determine Accuracy. To this we add a Stat for "Through Ball Technique".
And the “Though Ball Technique” STAT dictates the kind of passes an individual can pull off. Which haves little to do with "Passing Speed or Accuracy" and more to do with "Vision". Not everyone haves the same Vision and Creativity as Riquelme, not even good Accurate Passers like Steven Gerrard and Pavel Nedved
Meaning that if an individual haves great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” -- he will give accurate but simple passes, fail-safe passes.. BUT no Riquelme-Fabregas-Type passes.
The accuracy remains intact, but not the freedom. A player with great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” would still have “great accuracy”. But his options would be limited, because he doesn’t haves the Vision required to make complicated passes. So it would be simple and limited, but safe and accurate.
There's a difference between "good passers of the ball" and "great passers of the ball". This is why players like Riquelme and Fabregas are so useful, because although they are Not fast, they can create something out of nothing with their brilliant vision.
Players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have complete freedom when Passing the ball, more options and possibilities when Passing the ball.. because they can basically pull off any type of pass. This would make players like Riquelme and Fabregas far more appreciated within the game.
Which is something that the current Passing Stats are definitely NOT doing properly.. for one thing, when I use Leo Messi I have a huge advantage because the guy can get past anyone with his great pace and dribbling.
But when I use Riquelme or Fabregas.. I just don’t feel any advantages, I do Not feel like I have more Passing Opportunities because Vision is non-existent, something that greatly diminishes the use of players like Fabregas and Riquelme.
What’s my point??
* Pro Evolution needs to effectively Evolve along with its fans, and beyond PES6 and PES5.
Konami needs to understand that a polished-up version of PES6 is not good enough anymore. Many of us customers have grown past that.
For one thing, I can say that PES6 was a great "PS2 game" with great "replay value". But after 2 to 3 years of playing it, I can see the flaws more noticeably after each play.. PES6 is not good enough anymore.
It lacks depth and substance, it needs more Stats and Concepts.. it was a great PS2 game, but would make an average Next Gen game.
With all this said..
The press release did had a couple of interesting quotes:
----------------------------------------------------
"PES 2010: New Season, All New Game"
"Major gameplay additions will make PES 2010 the most realistic football simulation available"
"PES 2010 focuses on being a real football simulation, as it requires both strategic play and quick reactions, as in real life"
"thus returning PES 2010 to its simulation roots"
---------------------------------------------------
Interesting quotes from Konami.. Konami needs to dump the whole arcade approach, and start building on the "Simulation Roots" of the good old versions of PES.
There seems to be a lot of focus on achieving the "most realistic football simulation available".
And..
I just find it odd that Konami has not mentioned anything about implementing "all-new stats into the game to better define player attributes and individualism, for a greater level of realism".
I think the "most realistic football simulation available" should come hand-in-hand with a Stat Revolution, to achieve a greater level of realism.
Restoring the good old simulation roots is not good enough anymore.. Konami needs to build on their old "simulation roots".
They say "New Season, All New Game" -- How is it an All New Game?? Because it haves couple of new animations and flicks here and there? Because of improved graphics and movements?
We have seen that before, it's always the same Type of Evolution with PES.. Why does Konami Refuses to Update their Foundations??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game -- are The STATS.
If the Stats remain the same, the differences between Individuals will remain the same.. and as a result Individuals and Teams will pretty much play like Identical Copies.
This is why Inter Milan, Barcelona, Manchester United -all- feel the same.. different uniforms and faces, but same exact Ability -- it gets Boring and Repetitive.
New Season, All New Game?? Or New Update, Same Foundation?
P.S - Anyone Agrees??
Mighty Joe
11-04-2009, 09:55
It gets Unrealistic whenever I see Leo Messi doing Step Overs like Cristiano Ronaldo. Or Carlos Tevez doing some Outrageous Roulette, which he probably has never done in real-life.
Players like Kaka and Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard cannot do that, they need to run in order to maintain possession. They don’t have the Technique required to maintain possession at a slow pace.
You have players who are faster in Short Sprints and Small Spaces.. take Diego Maradona for example, and compare him with Thierry Henry.
Thierry Henry (in his prime) had great Acceleration and Top Speed, but he was never comfortable in small spaces, he was not that good in short explosive sprints. He never had that "explosive burst of acceleration" that The Brazilian Ronaldo had.
Don't agree with many of you points at all in fact completely disagree. Stats are what makes Pro unique compared to fifa. Theres not much difference in player skill on fifa as their stats don't hold much weight. 40 yard screamer with titus bramble??? this can be done on fifa...FACT!
And whats this about players doing unrealistic skills on Pro???? hahahahahaha have you seen FIFA??? Any player can do the most outrageous sills, even non league players so to say that statement is ridiculous!
Lampard doesnt do that much running except when he gets into the box, he's very good at keeping possesion of the ball and his passing is exceptional. part of the reason he's called Fat Frank is because he's slow at moving.
And Finally wtf are you on about Henry????? This guy was explosive anywhere!!!! FACT!!! he pretty much invented the idea of staying dormant in an offside position before explosively coming back on side in a short space and running on to a through ball! Theres a goal he scored in Euro 2000 against Denamrk the demonstrated the "explosive burst of acceleration" that you talked about Ronaldo having!
Don't agree with many of you points at all in fact completely disagree. Stats are what makes Pro unique compared to fifa. Theres not much difference in player skill on fifa as their stats don't hold much weight. 40 yard screamer with titus bramble??? this can be done on fifa...FACT!
And whats this about players doing unrealistic skills on Pro???? hahahahahaha have you seen FIFA??? Any player can do the most outrageous sills, even non league players so to say that statement is ridiculous!
Lampard doesnt do that much running except when he gets into the box, he's very good at keeping possesion of the ball and his passing is exceptional. part of the reason he's called Fat Frank is because he's slow at moving.
And Finally wtf are you on about Henry????? This guy was explosive anywhere!!!! FACT!!! he pretty much invented the idea of staying dormant in an offside position before explosively coming back on side in a short space and running on to a through ball! Theres a goal he scored in Euro 2000 against Denamrk the demonstrated the "explosive burst of acceleration" that you talked about Ronaldo having!
Yeah, Thierry Henry was explosive in the EPL.. the League with Huge wide open spaces to run into, great for players like Thierry Henry.
Was he ever the same in any other place??
Is he doing the same thing in the Spanish La Liga?? NO!! Because in La Liga you get less Space and Time on the ball, and defenders also stay closer to the back.. so it's more difficult to use your Top Speed and cath them on the break.
This is a clear Difference between Leo Messi and Thierry Henry, Henry probably haves better Top Speed, but Leo Messi is much more explosive.
You can also compare Thierry Henry with Johan Cruijff and Romario and Ronaldo... you'll get to see what I mean by "Explosiveness".
You can also compare Cristiano Ronaldo with Leo Messi..
Frank Lampard?? Are you kidding me? The guy may play slowly, but he certainly does not "Dribbles between players" at a slow pace. He haves great awareness and is very intelligent, as well as a very dangerous shooter and great passer.
But Frank Lampard is not Matt Le Tissier.. nor Zidane, nor Riquelme, nor Valderrama. There's a clear difference.
Andrea Pirlo is another player who can dictate play at a slow pace, but when someone marks him closely.. he doesn't haves that ability of Dribbling and holding possession via his Technique.
As for FIFA and STATS.. as far as I'm concerned, I never mentioned anything about FIFA. And yes, PES uses some Stats to great effect..
But don't you think it's time to improve on the Stats, maybe include some 10 New Ones?? It's been the same exact Stats since PES4!! or even before that!
Bottom Line in my opinion is that the game lacks a lot of substance.
It's all about the Leo Messis and the Cristiano Ronaldos.. But what about Tactical players like Riquelme, Fabregas, Lampard, Pirlo, etc, etc.. ??
It's not that I have a problem with Messi being super-human.. but I would also like to see players like Riquelme and Fabregas actually playing similar to their real-life counterparts.
There's just no healthy balance between players.. faster players are simply better. This shows that PES is in need of New Stats that can provide further substance to the Gameplay.
We need more Defensive and Tactical Stats, we need more Differences between Individuals.. there must be a balance between Attackers and Defenders. It cannot be the same arcade: run, run, run, dribble, run, dribble, run -- all the time.
That's boring.
I agree the stats could do with a re-vamp, you have some good ideas.
Because in La Liga you get less Space and Time on the ball,
Although I have to disagree with this, the whole attraction about the Prem is that its 90 miles an hour, players aren't allowed the time that they want and in my experience the other european leagues are slower and more methodical rather than direct, probably the reasoning for the Prems dominance in the CL at the moment.
I also agree with you about the Fabregas type player not really having a huge effect on the gameplay to the extent that a Messi or Ronaldo, these extra stats would be a good way of correcting this!
Makavelian
11-04-2009, 13:33
Lampard passing is exceptional. !
:D:no:
funny guy
I agree the stats could do with a re-vamp, you have some good ideas.
Although I have to disagree with this, the whole attraction about the Prem is that its 90 miles an hour, players aren't allowed the time that they want and in my experience the other european leagues are slower and more methodical rather than direct, probably the reasoning for the Prems dominance in the CL at the moment.
I also agree with you about the Fabregas type player not really having a huge effect on the gameplay to the extent that a Messi or Ronaldo, these extra stats would be a good way of correcting this!
You know.. it's not exactly that you have less Time and Space in the Spanish La Liga. But if you look at it closely the Defenders in the EPL defend way up -- this is why Thierry Henry catched them on the break so many times.
This is also Why Fernando Torres plays better in the EPL, he gets more Space at the back, which is better for him because he can use his Pace to greater effect.
Playing at 90 miles an hour haves consequences, one of them -- huge open gaps all over the pitch. It's always going to happen.
Fernando Torres could not the same in the Spanish La Liga because Defenders, although NOT playing at 90 miles per hours, Defenders stay close to the back.. so players like Henry and Fernando Torres have difficulties.
On the other hand, more explosive players like Leo Messi and Iniesta are clearly more comfortable in the Spanish La Liga, because they have better "explosiveness" which is better when Defenders stay close to the back.
PESFan92
12-04-2009, 19:57
You know.. it's not exactly that you have less Time and Space in the Spanish La Liga. But if you look at it closely the Defenders in the EPL defend way up -- this is why Thierry Henry catched them on the break so many times.
This is also Why Fernando Torres plays better in the EPL, he gets more Space at the back, which is better for him because he can use his Pace to greater effect.
Playing at 90 miles an hour haves consequences, one of them -- huge open gaps all over the pitch. It's always going to happen.
Fernando Torres could not the same in the Spanish La Liga because Defenders, although NOT playing at 90 miles per hours, Defenders stay close to the back.. so players like Henry and Fernando Torres have difficulties.
On the other hand, more explosive players like Leo Messi and Iniesta are clearly more comfortable in the Spanish La Liga, because they have better "explosiveness" which is better when Defenders stay close to the back.
Agree. Back when Henry was in the EPL. If you noticed, most of his goals he caught defenders out at the back and cut inside, Bam. In the La Liga. The defenders are more aware of the space they leave so they make it hard for the attackers, by staying close to the back.
This is one reason I Feel C.Ronaldo would fail in Spain because he has tremedous pace, but all the fancy footwork, may work against teams like West Brom, Fulham, Stoke, West Ham, Sunderland(No offense) because the defenders are not as aware as the likes of Sergio Ramos, Puyol, Cannavaro ect. They wouldn't give him space to run into because they will be aware of his pace.
This is why I Think Messi is an all round better player than C.Ronaldo because Ronaldo uses Step-overs, drag backs, the chop to get past his man. When Messi attacks the defenders, they try and stay with him but not to close because they know about his close control and his dribbling and also try not to leave to much space behind.
This is what PES should be like, this is how I think PES should be played, using your brain to defend against the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Etc, by not giving them space to run into, or just running at them. Also, its the same with the tatical payers like Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo, Riquelme, Beckham not giving them the space to make the "Pin-point" passes they can. If PES was like this, It would be like real-life football because your not just moving the anolouge stick and the buttons to play, your using your brain. Would make the game alot better.
Agree. Back when Henry was in the EPL. If you noticed, most of his goals he caught defenders out at the back and cut inside, Bam. In the La Liga. The defenders are more aware of the space they leave so they make it hard for the attackers, by staying close to the back.
This is one reason I Feel C.Ronaldo would fail in Spain because he has tremedous pace, but all the fancy footwork, may work against teams like West Brom, Fulham, Stoke, West Ham, Sunderland(No offense) because the defenders are not as aware as the likes of Sergio Ramos, Puyol, Cannavaro ect. They wouldn't give him space to run into because they will be aware of his pace.
This is why I Think Messi is an all round better player than C.Ronaldo because Ronaldo uses Step-overs, drag backs, the chop to get past his man. When Messi attacks the defenders, they try and stay with him but not to close because they know about his close control and his dribbling and also try not to leave to much space behind.
This is what PES should be like, this is how I think PES should be played, using your brain to defend against the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Etc, by not giving them space to run into, or just running at them. Also, its the same with the tatical payers like Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo, Riquelme, Beckham not giving them the space to make the "Pin-point" passes they can. If PES was like this, It would be like real-life football because your not just moving the anolouge stick and the buttons to play, your using your brain. Would make the game alot better.
Fully agree..
The problem for me is that since the transition to Next Gen Consoles, PES has not improved on any of the things that made PES6 such an enjoyable experience.
All that PES6 needed was:
* Next Gen Graphics.
* A Next Gen Engine for Movements and Animations.
* All-New Stats to better define player differences and realism.
* New Concepts, such an in-game Team Confidence.
But Instead..
Konami changed their whole approach, the "Simulation Roots" that had worked so well for them in the past.. Why did they changed their approach?? Why change the appealing factor of the good Old PES??
Since going Next Gen the Pro Evolution Soccer franchise has only improved for the worst.. worst movements, worst passing, less substance -- worst Gameplay.
In PES09 it's all about the PACE and Skills, the Cristiano Ronaldos and Leo Messis.. I don't really have a problem with that, I don't have a problem with Leo Messi being super-human.
But there must be a better balance between different Type of players.
Leo Messi can dribble at very high speeds and should have great explosiveness: ok, that would be realistic.
But players like Riquelme and Fabregas should also have their advantages, we should feel an advantage when Passing the ball with players like Riquelme. Players like Riquelme should have complete freedom when Passing the ball.
Like for example, Cristiano Ronaldo should have a more limited amount of options when passing the ball -whereas- with Riquelme we should have complete freedom, 360ª passing.
It would be much more realistic this way..
Because yeah, Leo Messi can beat players on Pace, he can get past 2 or 3 defenders via his pace and explosiveness -something- that Riquelme cannot do, because he doesn't haves that "explosiveness" nor acceleration.
But Riquelme should also have unique features, he should have the ability of holding the ball without the need of running or using his Pace, just like in Real Life.
So whereas Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi would need to run in order to maintain possession.. Riquelme would NOT need to run, because he is better at "Shielding the Ball". This would make Riquelme a better player for central areas, just like in Real Life.
And so on.. Pro Evolution needs features like this, it cannot be all about Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi, it cannot be all: run, run, run, dribble, run, run, dribble, run, run...
Konami must find a way of making PES a Collective Game, which is not. Because I can take Leo Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo and dribble past an entire team and score a Goal. I can also make great accurate passes with Cristiano Ronaldo.
So if Cristiano Ronaldo can dribble past entire teams, can also pass the ball accurately -THEN- Why would I need players like Riquelme??
Pro Evolution needs more STATS.. there must be more differences between different types of individuals:
* Solid Defenders like John Terry and Rio Ferdinand should have unique Defensive features.
* Hard-Working players like Mascherano and Pavel Nedved should have unique features.
* Creative players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have unique features.
* Great Dribblers like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo should have unique features.
* Goal Poachers like Van Nistelrooy and Fernando Torres should have unique features.
Right now, only the Cristiano Ronaldos, the Leo Messis, the Robinhos -have- clear unique features and advantages.
Bottom Line??
We need New Stats that can provide more substance to The Gameplay.
Like for example.. In the Defensive Aspect we need New Stats like:
* Defensive Awareness.
* Tackling.
* Sliding Tackle.
* Marking.
This would add a whole new layer of substance to Defensive Play.
Defensive Awareness: would determine the Defensive Positioning of the players. The better this attribute -the- better the player will position himself in Defensive Positions.
So, players from the Spanish La Liga would have better "Defensive Awareness" than players from the EPL.
On the other hand, players from the EPL would have inferior "Defensive Awareness" -but- superior Stamina and Pace, and probably better "Sliding Tackles".
This are Differences that should not be determined by some "Tactical Settings". This are differences that should be directly linked to an individual's actual ability.
The ability or STRENGTHS of the Individuals should dictate which "Tactical Scheme" works best for your team.. but not the other way around.
MysteryMan
12-04-2009, 21:25
Agree. Back when Henry was in the EPL. If you noticed, most of his goals he caught defenders out at the back and cut inside, Bam. In the La Liga. The defenders are more aware of the space they leave so they make it hard for the attackers, by staying close to the back.
This is one reason I Feel C.Ronaldo would fail in Spain because he has tremedous pace, but all the fancy footwork, may work against teams like West Brom, Fulham, Stoke, West Ham, Sunderland(No offense) because the defenders are not as aware as the likes of Sergio Ramos, Puyol, Cannavaro ect. They wouldn't give him space to run into because they will be aware of his pace.
This is why I Think Messi is an all round better player than C.Ronaldo because Ronaldo uses Step-overs, drag backs, the chop to get past his man. When Messi attacks the defenders, they try and stay with him but not to close because they know about his close control and his dribbling and also try not to leave to much space behind.
This is what PES should be like, this is how I think PES should be played, using your brain to defend against the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Etc, by not giving them space to run into, or just running at them. Also, its the same with the tatical payers like Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo, Riquelme, Beckham not giving them the space to make the "Pin-point" passes they can. If PES was like this, It would be like real-life football because your not just moving the anolouge stick and the buttons to play, your using your brain. Would make the game alot better.
True but at the end you can't stop Messi , you can only do a good job marking him but he will cut into your defence eventually and if you mark him too good he got open players to pass to , thats how its in real life and if PES will be a simulation then Messi will be very hard to stop.
MysteryMan
12-04-2009, 21:35
I agree with you amateur , what your saying is players need their advantages because in soccer you have various positions and each player has a role , but in PES everyone's role is just beating opponents till its close to goal then shot and score.
It should be like real soccer , Xavi has his vision and great passing that opens chances , Messi dribbles players and beats them and opens space for teammates , Iniesta having great control aswell can beat defenders with a slower pace and control the midfield with Xavi , Yaya Toure is strong and is hard to beat especially in air ( In PES09 it doesn't matter alot how high you are like it did in PES 6 ).....
One of the things of this " pin ball " soccer system in PES 09 is that in a game if you play a game your players will not get high marks for their role performance but everyone will get the same mark for a same performance of goals , assists or dribble distance...
For example in a simulation Xavi would get a good grade if he would have nice passing and opening chances but in PES he would get maybe 5.5 , he would get higher scores if his dribble distance was longer and especially if he scores a goal or assist, but Xavi rarely scores a goal in game his ROLE is different therefor the grade should not determine this for ALL players...
Defenders or goalkeepers aswell get very low grades most of the time if you play with your team ... even if you have Casillas keeping , if you play well and let your opponents have little chance on goal Casillas will have little work and receive a 5... Thats RIDICILOUS , in the end even if you have a worldclass player he won't be in that top 5 category in grading ever because PES rates players the same for all positions.
I agree with you amateur , what your saying is players need their advantages because in soccer you have various positions and each player has a role , but in PES everyone's role is just beating opponents till its close to goal then shot and score.
It should be like real soccer , Xavi has his vision and great passing that opens chances , Messi dribbles players and beats them and opens space for teammates , Iniesta having great control aswell can beat defenders with a slower pace and control the midfield with Xavi , Yaya Toure is strong and is hard to beat especially in air ( In PES09 it doesn't matter alot how high you are like it did in PES 6 ).....
One of the things of this " pin ball " soccer system in PES 09 is that in a game if you play a game your players will not get high marks for their role performance but everyone will get the same mark for a same performance of goals , assists or dribble distance...
For example in a simulation Xavi would get a good grade if he would have nice passing and opening chances but in PES he would get maybe 5.5 , he would get higher scores if his dribble distance was longer and especially if he scores a goal or assist, but Xavi rarely scores a goal in game his ROLE is different therefor the grade should not determine this for ALL players...
Defenders or goalkeepers aswell get very low grades most of the time if you play with your team ... even if you have Casillas keeping , if you play well and let your opponents have little chance on goal Casillas will have little work and receive a 5... Thats RIDICILOUS , in the end even if you have a worldclass player he won't be in that top 5 category in grading ever because PES rates players the same for all positions.
That's exactly my point..
I don't have a problem with Messi being almost unstoppable, because that's how it is in Real Life.
However, I do have a problem with Riquelme being completely useless within the game. He isn't even close to his real-life counterpart. And the same goes for Fabregas and Xavi.
Pro Evolution needs New STATS to further define the differences between different players, and their different roles. Every player should have unique features, not only the Robinhos and Messis.
The current Stats just aren't Specific enough.
Bottom Line??
The game simply lacks substance, it is a kid's game in a Next Gen Console.
That's exactly my point..
I don't have a problem with Messi being almost unstoppable, because that's how it is in Real Life.
However, I do have a problem with Riquelme being completely useless within the game. He isn't even close to his real-life counterpart. And the same goes for Fabregas and Xavi.
Pro Evolution needs New STATS to further define the differences between different players, and their different roles. Every player should have unique features, not only the Robinhos and Messis.
The current Stats just aren't Specific enough.
Bottom Line??
The game simply lacks substance, it is a kid's game in a Next Gen Console.
You're right but this looks like a start by them:
Individual Play Characteristics: "In previous PES games, the team formation has determined the movements of the players. PES 2010 introduces a new system wherein the individual attacking and defending nature of the players is integral to the way they play. Each player enjoys unique AI tied into their best abilities, and is reflected in the actions of their team mates – i.e. if a player who is known to be a good crosser of the ball is in possession, more players will flood the penalty area to receive it. Similarly, if a player is known to be good with close control, defenders will work to cover their stronger side, while lone strikers will be automatically supported by midfielders on receipt of the ball."
But yeah slightly different to what you said.
This is on http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/970/970869p1.html
Yeah, I also find that bit of info very interesting.. I hope it haves a huge effect on the Gameplay.. and on how Individuals and Teams play their Football.
I just hope they also add some 5 or 10 New Stats as well. It's about time they start Updating their out of date Foundations.
However, I do have a problem with Riquelme being completely useless within the game. He isn't even close to his real-life counterpart. And the same goes for Fabregas and Xavi..
While I agree that new stats would be useful, it is just the AI and gameplay issues which makes players like Riquelme play like they do in pro evo 09.
I recently played an international challenge on pes 6 with Argentina. Altough I haven't seen Riquelme play in a long time in real life, he was an essential cog in my Argentina attack. He was strong in the air, an excellent dribbler, not as fast as messi or tevez but just as, or even more effective. His excellent passes could split open defences and well his free kicking ability was pure class.
Therefore his individualism was definitely noticed in my team and well pes of late has lacked this due to the sheer over emphasis on speed.
CRISSGRAN
13-04-2009, 12:19
I do enjoy your posts every year Amateur because I can see you are a genuine fan of PES and merely trying to get your point across about what Konami should be changing, oh and you are the stat man. I'm more of the opinion that this is their year to implement a true next gen change, even if it isn't quite there fully this year they have 2 more gos to chatch up with the number of tries Fifa had at next gen before eventually, 'cracking' it.
i think the point is every player should not play the same as each other every player should have there own special effective stat and i also feel that scholes should have one of the best passing on the game
Dunno1982
13-04-2009, 14:14
I think Amateur should be hired by Seabass as a consultant lol, i sometimes dont always like his pessamistic posts towards PES but i know it is just because he truly cares about the game, his comments are constructive & make sense.
The stats definately need an overhaul in order to make the players feel more individual.
While I agree that new stats would be useful, it is just the AI and gameplay issues which makes players like Riquelme play like they do in pro evo 09.
I recently played an international challenge on pes 6 with Argentina. Altough I haven't seen Riquelme play in a long time in real life, he was an essential cog in my Argentina attack. He was strong in the air, an excellent dribbler, not as fast as messi or tevez but just as, or even more effective. His excellent passes could split open defences and well his free kicking ability was pure class.
Therefore his individualism was definitely noticed in my team and well pes of late has lacked this due to the sheer over emphasis on speed.
I fully agree with everything you said.. and that's basically the whole point I was trying to make with the 1st post.
Pro Evolution used to be a "Serious Simulation" and FIFA was regarded as an "Arcade-Mess". But this has changed since the transition to Next Gen Consoles..
Why did Konami changed their Simulation Approach??
I do like what I'm hearing from Konami when they say that "PES 2010 will return to its simulations roots".
And it needs to, because PES09 is all about Pace and Skill.. but Tactical Ability is non-existent, which makes for very one-dimensional gameplay.
But my point is that restoring their good old "simulation roots" isn't good enough anymore.. They need to build on them, and make an even better game than PES6.
Let's face it, PES6 was a great PS2 game.. but it's still far from perfect, and haves plenty of room for improvement -- This is what PES 2010 should be in my opinion.
A polished-up version of PES6 with only Graphical Updates is not good enough anymore. Some fans, like myself, have grown past that.
PES6 was a great PS2 game, and the fact that many fans still play it shows the great "replay value". But it still haves some long-standing flaws, there's barely any difference between Teams and Individuals.
You compare Argentina with Manchester United and:
* Roman Riquelme and Paul Scoles are pretty much identical copies with different faces.
* Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are identical copies with different faces.
* There's barely any Stats for Defenders, and as a result there's barely any differences between defenders.
Bottom Line??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game -- are The STATS.
This is Why in PES6 or PES09 you do NOT really feel any differences between Manchester United, Barcelona, Argentina, Real Madrid, Inter Milan, AC Milan, etc, etc.. Different Faces and Uniforms, but same exact identical Ability.
This are Differences that should not be determined by some "Tactical Settings". This are differences that should be directly linked to an individual's actual ability, in this case STATS.
The ability or STRENGTH of the Individuals should dictate which "Tactical Scheme" works best for your team.. but not the other way around.
This are flaws that I expected would be changed and improved with Next Gen Consoles.. I'm still waiting for that improvement.
^I totally agree about the player comparisons you did. There's not enough difference. You nailed it.:)
i just played pro 08(my friend dont have 09 so we played 08 online) and that was actually very slow, there was so much space to exploit, the sprint button wasn't overused by me like in 09 so keeping that speed would be going one step closer to a better game.
I know, i thought 09 slowed it down but go back to 08 if you didnt break it or return for one game, you will see what i mean
And it needs to, because PES09 is all about Pace and Skill.. but Tactical Ability is non-existent, which makes for very one-dimensional gameplay.
But my point is that restoring their good old "simulation roots" isn't good enough anymore.. They need to build on them, and make an even better game than PES6.
Let's face it, PES6 was a great PS2 game.. but it's still far from perfect, and haves plenty of room for improvement -- This is what PES 2010 should be in my opinion.
A polished-up version of PES6 with only Graphical Updates is not good enough anymore. Some fans, like myself, have grown past that.
PES6 was a great PS2 game, and the fact that many fans still play it shows the great "replay value". But it still haves some long-standing flaws, there's barely any difference between Teams and Individuals.
You compare Argentina with Manchester United and:
* Roman Riquelme and Paul Scoles are pretty much identical copies with different faces.
* Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are identical copies with different faces.
* There's barely any Stats for Defenders, and as a result there's barely any differences between defenders.
Bottom Line??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game -- are The STATS.
This is Why in PES6 or PES09 you do NOT really feel any differences between Manchester United, Barcelona, Argentina, Real Madrid, Inter Milan, AC Milan, etc, etc.. Different Faces and Uniforms, but same exact identical Ability.
This are Differences that should not be determined by some "Tactical Settings". This are differences that should be directly linked to an individual's actual ability, in this case STATS.
The ability or STRENGTH of the Individuals should dictate which "Tactical Scheme" works best for your team.. but not the other way around.
This are flaws that I expected would be changed and improved with Next Gen Consoles.. I'm still waiting for that improvement.
Yeah that is true,
I would not mind seeing a return to pes 6 style gameplay, although you are right that new stats are needed.
Even at that Konami could implement with their new animation system this year player traits more effectively so it will be more noticeable in the game. In games like nba 2k8 for example there are special moves set out for individual players which makes you feel like you are actually playing with that player. PES should attempt to do this to make the players feel like they should.
Equipped with new stats these could make each player feel like individuals.
I hope you guys don't mind about this post, it's a bit off-topic, but I think it reflects on the good old "magic" of PES -and- the things that have been lost since going Next Gen.
It's basically a comparison between PES6 and PES09. I have played the Two games recently, and because I have already given PES09 a good run, and have already played PES6 for more than two years..
PES6: A game well ahead of its time.
A deep system of (28) Stats and (23) Special Abilities, well ahead of FIFA's (25) Stats system which included no such thing as Special Abilities.
Gameplay full of subtle details of great quality for the time. You could feel subtle differences between many different players, the game was NOT only about the Messis and Cristiano Ronaldos, every different player had their own advantages and disadvantages:
* Gennaro Gattuso: a tireless worker, could push you off balance and win possession –but- was a bad passer of the ball. So once you did win possession with Gattuso you had to make a simple pass to your midfielders. This forced you to play “collectively” like in Real Life.
* Riquelme: Not a fast player, not a tireless worker –but- a player who could slip passes through with incredible ease, and a player who could hold the ball well because of his balance. This is the type of player who would receive passes from Gennaro Gattuso.
* Cristiano Ronaldo: Not the best passer of the ball –but- he could run past many players with his speed and technique.
* Clarence Seedorf: Not the fastest player around, not the most skillful player –but- a very useful player.. with his good balance and tactical ability, he was a very versatile midfielder as he could hold possession because of his balance, was always in good positions because of his good tactical ability, and could also give fairly decent passes.
This was an essential aspect of the good Old PES, every different individual had their own advantages and disadvantages, and although those advantages where “clear” there was a certain quality that made it extremely realistic for its time.
Individuals who are not good at passing the ball, like Gattuso, they where not completely helpless when passing the ball (like it happens so many times with PES09) –you- just had to limit yourself into making easy passes with them.
On the other hand, with players like Riquelme.. you notice a great deal of advantage when passing the ball, you have an edge when passing the ball with Riquelme. An edge that you don’t have when Cristiano Ronaldo or Leo Messi have the ball.
With players like Cristiano Ronaldo you can get past 2 or 3 players with the use of his Pace and Technique... but he wasn’t the best passer of the ball, and he didn’t had the best balance.. and it showed in the gameplay.
Other key aspects of PES6:
Fluid Gameplay: fluid movements, fluid passing.. It actually felt like Real Football. Because of the fluidity of the gameplay, the realistic proportions between players and pitch, and the balance between Attackers and Defenders, PES6 had a “never know what will happen next” factor that involved you in the gameplay.
The “anything can happen” factor is what made PES6 such an addictive and enjoyable experience.. you can still get a kick out of this game Today.
But the "fluid gameplay" wasn’t the only thing, if you look closely, PES6 forces you into Thinking Faster than you do when playing PES09. You get Less Space and Time on the pitch, which means that you’ve got to know what to do with the ball before the ball gets to you. This is closer to Real Football.
This also involved you even more, because you are always thinking when you play PES6, be it when Attacking or Defending.
Another Key Aspect about PES6:
TOP SPEED was NOT a very important factor. It could win you matches, it could make the difference every now and then, but PACE was not the most important factor. As even slow players could run the length of the pitch realistically.
A Football Pitch is relatively small, it doesn’t takes much to cover a good part of it.. the time-consuming thing about Football is creating that space, but not “running the length of it”.
Running the final third, the middle of the pitch, that’s relatively small. The hard part is getting the ball through the pitch, which haves more to do with tactical ability and passing ability –and- less to do with the Top Speed of a player.
Another key Factor about PES6:
The acceleration and thrill in The Final Third of the pitch.. it haves that “anything can happen” feel to it that makes each and every goal feel like a unique piece of work. An Essential Aspect of PES6.
Another Key factor about PES6:
The Dribbling Tricks, very limited, very few –but- like everything in the game, the Dribbling Tricks work differently in every different situation. The tricks give the impression of not having any practical purpose, but each of them does in fact have a purpose, and can prove decisive if used properly.
The “Drag Back”: always efficient for the middle of the pitch, you could use the “drag back” and then follow it up with a quick pass –or- maybe even by “Lifting or Flicking the ball over your opponent”.
This added a nice touch of “fantasy” to PES6, you could execute great moves by mixing different tricks: Drag Back + Flicking the Ball over your opponent – was one of those surprising moves that required imagination and timing.
The Classic “Kick-Fake” Dribble.. the most effective and intuitive trick in the game in my opinion.
The Roulette via the Right Stick, another fan favorite, and surprisingly intuitive considering it was arranged to the Right Analog Stick.
Negatives about PES6??
One of the most noticeable ones is that it can become something of a “pinball” game. At times, passing the ball becomes too easy, and as a result the flow of the game resembles something similar to “Pinball Football”.
This shows that although well ahead of its time, the ball physics are definitely not as realistic as it could be. Maybe as realistic as possible for a PS2 game.. but looking back at the game now, this is one of the things that could have improved on.
There’s barely any Animations and Tricks.. although looking back at it, it had plenty of animations for a PS2 Sports Game.
Crappy Graphics.
Although the differences between Individuals where great for the time.. if you look back at it, you can see some flaws, and it is easy to see that the game would benefit from New Stats and New Animations, and New Substance.
Bottom Line about PES6??
The Genial thing about PES6 is that it captures the essence of Football, it plays like Football.
Sure it haves crappy graphics, it barely haves any animations, it doesn’t haves the best ball physics, etc, etc..
But it captures the essential things about Football:
* Moving the ball around, working your angle.. it wasn't about "running the length of the pitch" -it- was more about creating space and scoring opportunities by actually playing Football.
* Every different individual had advantages and disadvantages. This gave the game a great touch of realism, you had to think and play like a Team, it was about the "collective" effort as a team.
* The practical use of Dribbling Tricks, they could be simple and subtle, but could also be fantastic. It wasn't about mastering some complicated controls, it only required imagination and timing.. and the actual Dribbling Stats.
* The Fluid Gameplay, the realistic proportions of the pitch, the balance between defenders and attackers, the thrill in The Final Third of the pitch.. it gave the game that essential "anything can happen" magic.
PES6 left you asking for more, it didn't mattered if the score-line was 4-0.. the "anything can happen" feel of the game left you asking for more and more and more Goals.
-------------------------------------------
PES 2009: “tactical” in Intent, but “arcade-like” in Execution. A completely different game.
Positives??
* The Shooting in-game feels better.
* Much better Graphics, much better Faces and Stadiums. Player likenesses are spot-on. A huge improvement over PES6 Graphics.
* Long Balls are very effective this time around, you can really alternate between Ground Passes and Lobbed Passes. This has opened new ways of “counter attacking” amongst other things. And Unlike PES6, it isn’t a game that forces you to play through the Ground.
* The R2 “strategies” does makes a clear difference, gameplan A and B is actually effective for in-game purposes.
Negatives??
Fluid Gameplay -- Gone.
Fluid Movements -- Gone.
Fluid Passing -- Gone.
The Execution has changed completely. The edgy and robotic animations are the main Reason for the game’s lack of Feeling and Intensity. And the limited amount of options for both “dribbling and marking” make it worst.
The Defensive Play is very arcade-like in that it requires Zero Thinking. There’s no sense of “work rate” going on, as I can basically defend well with every fast and agile player. Which means that it is usual to have forwards suddenly turning into world class defenders.
Passing is excessively assisted by the COM and excessively Rigid, it feels more 8-Directional than ever before. It becomes more and more annoying with each passing game, unforgivable in a Football Simulation – Passing can make or break any Football Simulation.
Acceleration in The Last Third of the pitch is very one-dimensional and arcade-like. With controls like having to hold the R2 and then tapping the R1 just so the player can go faster. The control isn’t bad, but — the execution spells “arcade game”.
Many things in the game feel very "watered down":
* Defending and Tackling feels very watered down, there's no responsiveness to it anymore.
* Off-the-ball movement feels very watered down.. to this day I still don't see the now infamous "TeamVision".
* That Old Trademark thrill in The Final Third of the pitch is nowhere to be found. It feels as though Konami actually "stretched" the Length of the pitch, at times it feels never ending. Giving you excessive amounts of Space and Time to think about whatever your going to do next.
The Dribbling Ability of every player is pretty much identical: in the game Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi are equally good at “Cutting The Ball” and at “dribbling through small spaces”. Which again, leans closer to arcade game.
This is where the “finesse” of Football gets lost:
* When everyone runs just as much as Gennaro Gattuso. The game losses credibility, this is where Stats like “Work Rate” should be taking place.
* When there are barely any controls nor options for Defending and stealing the ball. This is where Stats such as “Marking”, “Defensive Awareness”, and “Defensive Composure” should be taken into consideration.
* When you only have a “Dribbling Accuracy” and “Dribbling Speed” Stat to cover something as important as the actual dribbling technique of every player — Cutting the Ball, Shielding the Ball, Body Feints, Flicking the Ball, 360ª Roulette — all different abilities, all individual attributes.
Bottom Line about PES09??
That always important “anything can happen” factor is nowhere to be found. PES09 simply does NOT plays like a proper Pro Evolution game.
For one thing, Top Speed is ridiculously Overrated.. and to make it worst, the Length of the Pitch seems (at times) never ending, it truly gives the impression of “stretching”.
Running the Length of the Pitch should NOT take that long, acceleration in The Final Third should be a lot more explosive and responsive.
It seems like Konami, instead of making it harder and more challenging to create Spaces and scoring opportunities.. It seems like Konami decided to simply “stretch” the Length of the pitch.
And as a result we now have a ridiculous disproportion in the length of the pitch, we have too much Space and Time to Think whatever it is we will do next. There’s no thrill or intensity in The Final Third of the Pitch.
This has completely changed the gameplay, because it is (now) very SLOW Mentally and Tactically.
The Balance between Defenders and Attackers has been lost. The Attackers have a clear advantage over the defenders, and the defenders really have no tools to counter against the twitchy tricks.
There is so much time and space on the pitch, so much advantage as an attacker –that- the old “anything can happen” feeling has been lost. Everything is more predictable now. PES09 plays more like FIFA, everything in the game is predictable, and gets boring and repetitive very fast.. it’s definitely not the same level of quality anymore.
Long story short: PES09 is a step backwards from PES6. Instead of building on their "simulation roots", instead of adding new substance to the game.. Konami actually removed substance from the game.
StringerBell
14-04-2009, 20:54
I think Amateur should be hired by Seabass as a consultant lol, i sometimes dont always like his pessamistic posts towards PES but i know it is just because he truly cares about the game, his comments are constructive & make sense.
The stats definately need an overhaul in order to make the players feel more individual.
I agree Amateur you need to be on the Konami payroll lol.
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