View Full Version : Stop The Scripted Cheating
LEGOFLAMB22
23-04-2009, 15:09
Seriously I love Pro Evo but year after year the game just has too many cheats and annoyances.
1. When you do a tackle the computer conveniently gets the ball back - the player you tackled might as well have just done the perfect pass to his team mate as that's where the ball goes, and straight to feet.
2.when you're fouled in opponents box ref doesn't give penalties but for the same foul anywhere else on the field (that you commit) you get a yellow for.
3. your players turn soooooo slowly on the ball allowing opponents to tackle even if you're dribbling with someone fast like walcott and not someone rubbish like distin
4. slow opponent players catch up and push past you to tackle you as if by miracle (christiano ronaldo vs say makalele)
5. computer *nearly always* scores free kicks even if you have a brilliant keeper and the guy taking the free kick is John Mcrubbish
6. every pass you make goes directly to opposing team or goes to the wrong player in a bad position so the computer can get the ball back easily.
7. your defenders refuse to head the ball when in a brilliant position, allowing computer to score
8. when you tackle the computer the ball seems to bobble and then stick to that players feet defying physics.
9. your players refuse to shoot or pass when you tell them. For example you press the button to make sure they hit it first time and instead they take bad touches and allow defenders to close down making chances to score disappear
10. your defenders kicking the ball out when there's plenty of time to pass properly and you've told them not to kick it in that direction.
11. you can smell when the computer has decided it *will* score as all their players are crap and even though you close them down and give them no space they seem to be able to bustle past and push defenders out of the way in order to score.
It makes master league almost unplayable when you're far better than the team you're playing but it cheats at every opportunity and decides not to let you win.
It even cheats when you play a friend in exhibition mode but not nearly as bad and it seems to swap who it cheats.
I don't mind losing fair and square but when it's doing it on purpose it's so annoying
I fully agree to stop the scripting part and the cheating.
Since PES2. And I dont think it will stop. Ive written about it before and im sure alot of you will write about it in the future, its part of PES and I dont think it should will go.
stottmeister
23-04-2009, 17:00
maybe this is part of what makes pes better than fifa.
i mean, fifa i always used to win 5-0 or something, on pes it seems the cpu restricts you through this scripting which in some way prevents total dominance, or in my case prevents even slight dominance.
i do agree it is a pain, like the last minute corner thar the cpu gets and you can bet your ass it results in that equaliser/winner that you prayed you could avoid
CaptainCabinet
23-04-2009, 17:24
It's not cheating, grow up.
stottmeister
23-04-2009, 17:25
yes, i did have a game versus my gal's dad and he absolutely battered me, he was liverpool, i was spurs.
but the cpu seemed to deny him over and again and i scored the only goal late on.
now i wasn't complaining then but i bet this guy was pissed who lost the competition tho.
The Eristic
23-04-2009, 20:03
7. your defenders refuse to head the ball when in a brilliant position, allowing computer to score
How about your 6'4"+ attackers with jump/header in the 90s persistently refusing to head the ball in the box, always trying some ridiculous overhead or scissor kick from like 6 yards out?
Seriously I love Pro Evo but year after year the game just has too many cheats and annoyances.
1. When you do a tackle the computer conveniently gets the ball back - the player you tackled might as well have just done the perfect pass to his team mate as that's where the ball goes, and straight to feet.
2.when you're fouled in opponents box ref doesn't give penalties but for the same foul anywhere else on the field (that you commit) you get a yellow for.
3. your players turn soooooo slowly on the ball allowing opponents to tackle even if you're dribbling with someone fast like walcott and not someone rubbish like distin
4. slow opponent players catch up and push past you to tackle you as if by miracle (christiano ronaldo vs say makalele)
5. computer *nearly always* scores free kicks even if you have a brilliant keeper and the guy taking the free kick is John Mcrubbish
6. every pass you make goes directly to opposing team or goes to the wrong player in a bad position so the computer can get the ball back easily.
7. your defenders refuse to head the ball when in a brilliant position, allowing computer to score
8. when you tackle the computer the ball seems to bobble and then stick to that players feet defying physics.
9. your players refuse to shoot or pass when you tell them. For example you press the button to make sure they hit it first time and instead they take bad touches and allow defenders to close down making chances to score disappear
10. your defenders kicking the ball out when there's plenty of time to pass properly and you've told them not to kick it in that direction.
11. you can smell when the computer has decided it *will* score as all their players are crap and even though you close them down and give them no space they seem to be able to bustle past and push defenders out of the way in order to score.
It makes master league almost unplayable when you're far better than the team you're playing but it cheats at every opportunity and decides not to let you win.
It even cheats when you play a friend in exhibition mode but not nearly as bad and it seems to swap who it cheats.
I don't mind losing fair and square but when it's doing it on purpose it's so annoying
AI-Cheating has been a part of PES since as far as I can remember. It shouldn't be removed -BUT- it should definitively change. The whole random "momentum shifts" Concept needs to change.
* We need solid reasons for every AI-Controlled "Momentum Shift".
Konami needs to give us more control over the AI-Controlled momentum shifts. If Konami manages to do that, then it would be a great feature... Otherwise, I would prefer it if the random cheating isn't in the game.
As for the fans who say that "it's not cheating"... IT IS CHEATING; SEABASS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THIS TO BE TRUE.
I find it pointless that some people still say that "it is not cheating". Why would someone say that When Seabass himself confirmed this to be true??
Dragonfly
23-04-2009, 21:49
If the cheating is scripted, then maybe you guys should learn to read. :smug:
Yeah......So long as the game is taken with a pinch of salt, as no more than a bit of light hearted fun around the Sofa with nothing much at stake except winner stays on or bragging rights, then perhaps the scripting can add a bit of excitement to fray.
But as soon as the game is being played competitvely, whether it be a Ł5 per head tourney amongst mates or a national tournment for a small fortune, the Scripting AI needs to get right the fuck out of the game and leave the outcome of the game down to the skills of the two humans playing the game with no hidden AI hand interfering in any way whatsoever other than by genuine sheer chance (as oppossed to calculated chance)
Fully agree...
If the cheating is scripted, then maybe you guys should learn to read. :smug:
I have learned how to read and... the book is quite boring after the 1st read.
Konami must change their game in this respect, it is predictable and repetitive... and it's plain out OLD. Next Gen Consoles should give us more Control (and substance) over every aspect of the game.
Somehow taking a ride with the COM becomes boring after a few plays. It can be cool and exciting for awhile, but I think it's reached the point where the game should be more Serious.
You simply CAN'T deny that there comes a period where your teammates simply cannot do a single thing.
This is more evident in BAL than anything else.
i dont think its as bad as some of you are making out.....people will often blame the computer when its just the player being shit...easy option
I don't want to start a fifa vs pes war. But in Fifa 09, the AI cheating is much less and yet, the game is still difficult. Why can't pes be the same? I really hate the cheating because it takes place in 2 players too.
I don't want to start a fifa vs pes war. But in Fifa 09, the AI cheating is much less and yet, the game is still difficult. Why can't pes be the same? I really hate the cheating because it takes place in 2 players too.
Yeah because FIFA gives us more control over certain things like; passing the ball, midfield battles, corner kicks, etc, etc...
But at the same time I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it.
stottmeister
24-04-2009, 11:15
i was losing every match in ML till i got bent on a half season loan. now i cant lose.
i get the feeling this scripting has shifted in my favour because now he's gone back to spurs i'm still winning, i know my other guys have improved but not that much in 11 games.
its almost like the A.I. has decided i've been humiliated enough now.
^That's the problem. The AI decides for you.
Yeah because FIFA gives us more control over certain things like; passing the ball, midfield battles, corner kicks, etc, etc...
But at the same time I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it.
Excactly. I hope pes 2010, has less "AI decides for you" things and will have a manual control system.
muscularmatt
24-04-2009, 17:57
It's not cheating, grow up.
i agree, not just on PES but on all the gaming forums you get some
paranoid little twerp with this 'boohoo why can't i win all the time'
mentality. the fact that pes is so much harder than other footy
games is what makes it fun! either practice the game and get better,
turn the difficulty down, or STFU
stottmeister
24-04-2009, 19:12
aah, now all i need is to buy an un tackleable player.
shame my status in ML will make most of these wonder players piss themselves laughing when i make an offer
^That's the problem. The AI decides for you.
Excactly. I hope pes 2010, has less "AI decides for you" things and will have a manual control system.
What I mean is that Konami should develop a New Concept for dictating the "momentum shifts".
If we could have something like an in-game "Confidence Level" gauge that changes throughout the game. So that the Team with better "Confidence Level" haves the momentum in their favor.
But it must be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent. Maybe if you're dominating the possession -the- momentum will be in your favor. Or if you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent would be completely bummed out.
It must be something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. I think it could be a great feature of the game. But if Konami maintains the same Random AI-Controlled "momentum shifts" then I would prefer it if they weren't in the game.
Konami must give us more control of everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Love the idea, simply brilliant, they should pay you for this
I've been saying this for ages. Not Amateur's idea, but the cheating thing. Why can't they make the game so each player just performs to the best of their abilities, and not beyond? Is it so difficult?
You are of course ONLY KIDDING, right?
Once a player works out the exploits they can practically score at will.
Since I dont like your tone much, I think I will spoil the game for you.
To score a guaranteed goal everytime, simply run a fast untacklable player (C Ronaldo, Messi etc) towards the touchline and perhaps 2-3 relative feet wide of the goalpost. When you are about 1 yard or so away from the touchline having given yourself a rather improbable tight angle from which to shoot from, simply tap the shoot button and watch the exact same goal fly in time and time again.
It aint hard dude........
Perhaps you should just learn a bit more about the game before passing such comments.
LOL....if your good enough you WONT do that and you would be able to cope with people doing it to you...i can (put my trumpet down)
and amateur your idea is great, but i question its practicality. most people cant take it when things are against them at 0-0...i can imagine people doing their nut if they lose a quick goal and are under constant pressure from a confident team....i mean surely its just another game mechanic to be exploited by people obsessed with winning.....like the messi runs etc.
could work a treat though
MysteryMan
25-04-2009, 14:06
Besides the cheating I also hate the difficulty , its just plain dumb...
When you put it on higher level like top players the AI isn't smarter.... its not better... it just makes their players more superman alike , like a very slow player can outrun Messi and so ... thats really childish and dumb , make the AI SMARTER and play better , not the players better , its not realistic and arcade like.
^That's what I'm talking about. That's when I get angry, when the AI palyers turn into supermen.
LOL....if your good enough you WONT do that and you would be able to cope with people doing it to you...i can (put my trumpet down)
and amateur your idea is great, but i question its practicality. most people cant take it when things are against them at 0-0...i can imagine people doing their nut if they lose a quick goal and are under constant pressure from a confident team....i mean surely its just another game mechanic to be exploited by people obsessed with winning.....like the messi runs etc.
could work a treat though
Like it or not, it is a reality of Football; the momentum changes.
My whole point is that Konami must give us complete control. Let's say that almost everything is decided by our actual skills as players, and your opponent is outplaying you fair and square -this- would mean that the momentum would be in your opponent's favor...
And there would be a lot of depth to it because the Team Confidence is the result of every Individual's Confidence Level. So it covers both Individual performances and Team performances.
When an Individual haves a "Low Confidence Level" some of his stats will go down: resulting in less off-the-ball movement, which in turn will make him harder to find on the pitch.
On the other hand, when an Individual haves a "High Confidence Level" some of his Stats will improve: resulting in more off-the-ball movement and effort.
That change in the Stats or in "off-the-ball movement" should be how the whole "momentum shifts" work.
* off-the-ball movement is very important in Football, because without good off-the-ball movement you don’t get good passing angles.
It would be a completely Unbiased Concept... everything would depend on our skills as players.
Let's have a scenario: Barcelona vs Chelsea, Essien is keeping a close mark on Leo Messi... and Essien is winning that "one-on-one" battle. Let's say Leo Messi tried to dribble past Essien but failed, and this has happened for about 3 consecutive times so far.
This would have a negative effect on Messi's Confidence Level, maybe Messi started the match with an 80% Confidence -and- after struggling against Essien his Confidence has gone down to 65%.
This would mean that some of Leo Messi's Stats will go down momentarily: maybe his Dribbling Stats will go down a bit, and he will also be harder to find on the pitch.
This would mean that for the coming PLAYS you should try playing through Iniesta, or through Xavi, or through Thierry Henry -until- Leo Messi recovers a healthy "confidence level".
And if you still play with Leo Messi, you could risk making it worst... this would encourage Collective Play and it would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi.
** How can Konami encourage Collective Play??
The whole point about the "Confidence Level" Concept is having some sort of control over the "momentum shifts" that occur throughout a game… but it would also be a completely new element of "Team Chemistry".
For example...
Let's take Barcelona FC: with Barcelona it wouldn’t be a wise move to have Leo Messi doing everything –because- this would mean that team-mates like Xavi would not see much of the ball. And if Xavi doesn’t get hold of the ball so that he can distribute play –this- would result with Xavi having a “Low Confidence Level”.
And if Xavi haves a Low Confidence Level –this- would affect Barcelona in a negative way. The Balance of the system would be lost for a given time, depending on how you get Xavi back into the game.
This would encourage collective play… let’s say someone is doing everything with Leo Messi, like they usually do Online. This would result in the Team loosing Confidence because Leo Messi is not passing the ball; there would be consequences for over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
Because Football is a Collective game, it isn’t only about the Leo Messis and the Robinhos and the Cristiano Ronaldos, etc, etc.
It shouldn’t be as one-dimensional as simply getting a bunch of “egos” together and having a star-studded Team… It shouldn’t be that simple, it should also depend on the actual balance and “team chemistry” of the Team: on how all those “egos” work together as a Team.
** The positives and negatives about “star-studded” Teams…
With teams like Barcelona FC you get world-class players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches, all this “superstars” and their high demands: Leo Messi wants to have the ball, Xavi wants to have the ball, Thierry Henry also likes to hold the ball, Samuel Eto’o also wants the ball, etc, etc.
If Messi started doing everything on his own –this- would create a conflict within the team. This is the price you pay when you play for a Big Team; you are no longer The Leader of the team, you have to share the spotlight with other “superstars”.
You wouldn’t need to worry about this in an Average Team with Average Individuals… But in Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona and Man Utd this is a problem, because everyone is a “superstar” and you have to deal with their “egos” and make them work as a Team.
The Confidence Level Concept would give us more Realistic Differences between Average Clubs and Big Clubs.
With a Big Club like Real Madrid you get better players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches. On the other hand, with a more Average Club like Fiorentina we would get more average players, but as a positive we don’t have to deal with the high demands of “superstars”.
With bigger clubs we have more instability and conflicts within the team are more likely to happen. On the other hand with average clubs we have less quality, but as a positive we have a more consistent “team chemistry”.
** Bottom Line??
The "Confidence Level" Concept could:
* Provide a new layer of "team chemistry".
* Finally fix the AI-Dictated "momentum shifts" that are completely out of our hands.
* It would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
* It would encourage Realistic/Collective Play.
I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a Part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it. Here are a couple of scenarios:
* If Leo Messi keeps dribbling with the ball and playing by himself –this- could have a Negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level. Because this would mean that players like Xavi and Iniesta are not getting the ball, and this would create a conflict within the team –and- the conflict will have a negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level.
* If you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent will be completely bummed out.
* If you're dominating the possession –the- momentum should be in your favor.
* If Cristiano Ronaldo had an easy chance to score and failed to convert it, and his overall performance isn’t much better –this- would have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And consequently some of his Stats will go down momentarily: resulting in less off-the-ball runs and maybe a drop in his Dribbling Stats. Ronaldo could go missing for some parts of the game, and it would be up to you to get him back into the game.
* If you have a player like Juan Roman Riquelme and you don’t feed him the ball, and instead choose to play with other players –this- could have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And as a result Riquelme could become impatient and could simply stop running, effectively disappearing from the game for an unknown amount of minutes. Or until you start working on passing him the ball and improving his “confidence level”.
It should be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent, something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. Konami must give us more control over everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".
PS - My apologies to anyone who might be offended by the long "rant".
Like it or not, it is a reality of Football; the momentum changes.
My whole point is that Konami must give us complete control. Let's say that almost everything is decided by our actual skills as player, and your opponent is outplaying you fair and square -this- would mean that the momentum would be in your opponent's favor...
And on the contrary...
The whole Confidence Level that I mentioned could be used against the users who over-use players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
** How can Konami encourage Collective Play??
The whole point about the "Confidence Level" Concept is having some sort of control over the "momentum shifts" that occur throughout a game… but it would also be a completely new element of "Team Chemistry".
For example...
Let's take Barcelona FC: with Barcelona it wouldn’t be a wise move to have Leo Messi doing everything –because- this would mean that team-mates like Xavi would not see much of the ball. And if Xavi doesn’t get hold of the ball so that he can distribute play –this- would result with Xavi having a “Low Confidence Level”.
And if Xavi haves a Low Confidence Level –this- would affect Barcelona in a negative way. The Balance of the system would be lost for a given time, depending on how you get Xavi back into the game.
This would encourage collective play… let’s say someone is doing everything with Leo Messi, like they usually do Online. This would result in the Team loosing Confidence because Leo Messi is not passing the ball; there would be consequences for over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
Because Football is a Collective game, it isn’t only about the Leo Messis and the Robinhos and the Cristiano Ronaldos, etc, etc.
It shouldn’t be as one-dimensional as simply getting a bunch of “egos” together and having a star-studded Team… It shouldn’t be that simple, it should also depend on the actual balance and “team chemistry” of the Team: on how all those “egos” work together as a Team.
** The positives and negatives about “star-studded” Teams…
With teams like Barcelona FC you get world-class players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches, all this “superstars” and their high demands: Leo Messi wants to have the ball, Xavi wants to have the ball, Thierry Henry also likes to hold the ball, Samuel Eto’o also wants the ball, etc, etc.
If Messi started doing everything on his own –this- would create a conflict within the team. This is the price you pay when you play for a Big Team; you are no longer The Leader of the team, you have to share the spotlight with other “superstars”.
You wouldn’t need to worry about this in an Average Team with Average Individuals… But in Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona and Man Utd this is a problem, because everyone is a “superstar” and you have to deal with their “egos” and make them work as a Team.
The Confidence Level Concept would give us more Realistic Differences between Average Clubs and Big Clubs.
With a Big Club like Real Madrid you get better players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches. On the other hand, with a more Average Club like Fiorentina we would get more average players, but as a positive we don’t have to deal with the high demands of “superstars”.
With bigger clubs we have more instability and conflicts within the team are more likely to happen. On the other hand with average clubs we have less quality, but as a positive we have a more consistent “team chemistry”.
** Bottom Line??
The "Confidence Level" Concept would:
* Provide a new layer of "team chemistry".
* Finally fix the AI-Dictated "momentum shifts" that are completely out of our hands.
* It would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
* It would encourage Realistic/Collective Play.
I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a Part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it. Here are a couple of scenarios:
* If Leo Messi keeps dribbling with the ball and playing by himself –this- could have a Negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level. Because this would mean that players like Xavi and Iniesta are not getting the ball, and this would create a conflict within the team –and- the conflict will have a negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level.
* If you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent will be completely bummed out.
* If you're dominating the possession –the- momentum should be in your favor.
* If Cristiano Ronaldo had an easy chance to score and failed to convert it, and his overall performance isn’t much better –this- would have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And consequently some of his Stats will go down momentarily: resulting in less off-the-ball runs and maybe a drop in his Dribbling Stats. Ronaldo could go missing for some parts of the game, and it would be up to you to get him back into the game.
* If you have a player like Juan Roman Riquelme and you don’t feed him the ball, and instead choose to play with other players –this- could have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And as a result Riquelme could become impatient and could simply stop running, effectively disappearing from the game for an unknown amount of minutes. Or until you start working on passing him the ball and improving his “confidence level”.
It should be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent, something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. Konami must give us more control over everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".
Well said. Couldn't agree anymore. This will give more challenge especially for people who have acquired all the best players in ML. Something for them to think about in acquiring all the best players.
Well said. Couldn't agree anymore. This will give more challenge especially for people who have acquired all the best players in ML. Something for them to think about in acquiring all the best players.
I appreciate that... It would make things more challenging and realistic. Pro Evo gets a bit boring and repetitive when you realize that the whole AI-Cheating is out of your hands.
The Confidence Level Concept would give us some control over the AI-Dictated "Momentum Shifts" -plus- it would also add a whole new layer of "Team Chemistry".
For example...
* You play Sergio Aguero as Defensive Midfielder, and this would have a negative effect on his Confidence Level.
* You play Riquelme as a Winger, and this will have a negative effect on his Confidence Level.
* If your Defensive Midfielder is having a bad game and is Low on Confidence... This will have a negative effect on the TEAM. Because Attacking Midfielders and Forwards won't see much of the ball.
The Confidence Level Concept would establish some important fundamentals. It would always be better to play to your player's strengths.
And it would also encourage collective play, as well as a Realistic Balance in the team. It wouldn't be about having Attacking players like Leo Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robinho, Kaka, etc, etc...
You would also need Defensive Players to feed them the ball, hard-working midfielders like Mascherano and Ambrosini.
Because let's say that we have a team with: Leo Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robinho, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Fernando Torres... None of this players likes to defend -and- if any of them are reduced to defending; their "Confidence Level" will go down.
So you would need a Realistic Balance in your Team: hard-working players like Mascherano with naturally gifted players like Leo Messi. This would work best for all parts, because Mascherano will not mind being reduced to Defensive Duties -and- Leo Messi will have more freedom to do what he likes to do.
And also...
It would encourage Collective Play, because over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo would come at a price. It could have a negative effect on your team-mates Confidence.
Pro Evolution 2009 flaws??
* I can play Sergio Aguero as a Defensive Midfielder without problems... and he is as good as any Defensive Midfielder. Fast and Agile players always make good Defensive Midfielders, this is a huge flaw of PES09.
* You can do just about anything with Leo Messi -and- it doesn't seems to affect any of his team-mates: Xavi, Iniesta, Thierry Henry, Samuel Eto'o... which is completely Unrealistic.
I think the Confidence Level Concept that I've mentioned, I think it would fix some of those flaws. And in my opinion it would be a massive improvement.
i play football at u16 level and the momentum thing applies in this as well!!!
We were dominating a game, winning 1 - 0, looking like a stroll to victory when the other team scored a fluky goal, it boosted their morale considerably, the they were dominating, in fact, our team couldn't get the ball, let alone score.
Luckily we won as we managed to get a 2nd and 3rd until they pulled one back and we finished it off 4 - 2
EDIT: soz for double post
Another eg is England League yesterday - man u v spurs
Silly ref decision gives man u a goal which gave them the impetous and confidence to get another 4 and win
ooo and they really need mental attributes for off the ball and BAL affecting what runs they make off the ball or at corner kicks, not all players move the same, some stay static in one place and wait for the ball to come to them, making them less effective than someone who makes a run affecting your choice of "players to go up"
I can play Sergio Aguero as a Defensive Midfielder without problems... and he is as good as any Defensive Midfielder. Fast and Agile players always make good Defensive Midfielders, this is a huge flaw of PES09.
That really annoys me. This is the most annoying thing in pes. Speed is overrated. I need to see a more defensive game and the defence and tackling abilities need to be more active in pes.
That really annoys me. This is the most annoying thing in pes. Speed is overrated. I need to see a more defensive game and the defence and tackling abilities need to be more active in pes.
This has always been a flaw of PES... if you look closely, PES doesn't have STATS for "Marking" or "Tackling" -and- Special Abilities do not work very well, because there's no accuracy to them.
The game needs more Defensive Stats and more Stats for the off-the-ball movement. Tactical Movement is extremely important in Football, and I find it disappointing that there are no STATS for off-the-ball movement.
They should also include different types of off-the-ball movement, not everyone haves the same off-the-ball tendencies.
This also really annoys me, because I was expecting that this flaws would be fixed with Next Gen Consoles... Instead: Konami made the game worst and actually removed substance from the game.
Pro Evolution 2010 could really be make or break. If 2010 is another major disappointment, I cannot see myself buying PES 2011.
I think I will switch to FIFA if Pro Evo 2010 is another disappointment... there's just no point in supporting a sold-out franchise.
I agree on stats. That's what defines a football game. But the stats, need to be recognized more by the game.
I think it is not only a bad thing that pes is scripted. Like some say: it makes the difference with fifa.
I agree with the 'feeling' u get when the CPU 'decides' to score... That's funny and almost impossible to escape from. But this moment usually pops up when u didn't finish the chances u got urself during the game, so it's some sort of chainreaction.
I think it is not only a bad thing that pes is scripted. Like some say: it makes the difference with fifa.
I agree with the 'feeling' u get when the CPU 'decides' to score... That's funny and almost impossible to escape from. But this moment usually pops up when u didn't finish the chances u got urself during the game, so it's some sort of chainreaction.
A few years back I would've said the same thing...
But honestly, in my opinion the "Scripting" is a Key LIMITING factor in the PES series. Konami must gives us control over the "momentum shifts". It cannot be something that the AI-Decides on its own.
Many fans have grown past that, and Konami must understand that we expect better. I don't like playing against human-Players, just so the COM decides who will win, like it usually happens. Pro Evolution should be less COM -and- more about our actual skills as players.
I think it is not only a bad thing that pes is scripted. Like some say: it makes the difference with fifa.
The thing is fifa is scripted in the same ways, but different ways.
Yeah in PES teams can randomly start playing brilliantly and score flukey goals, win every 50-50 etc etc
But in fifa say in manager mode or whatever, your team plays like Man Utd during home games, and like West Brom when they play away.
Just limiting the scripting argument to PES alone isn't fair, because it happens in both games.
Source : I own, and play, both games.
The thing is fifa is scripted in the same ways, but different ways.
Yeah in PES teams can randomly start playing brilliantly and score flukey goals, win every 50-50 etc etc
But in fifa say in manager mode or whatever, your team plays like Man Utd during home games, and like West Brom when they play away.
Just limiting the scripting argument to PES alone isn't fair, because it happens in both games.
Source : I own, and play, both games.
Could you elaborate a little on this??
I know that there is "scripting" in PES09... But I haven't heard or read anything about "scripting" in FIFA09. I haven't played FIFA09 very much (maybe a few games here and there) and so I haven't really noticed any AI-Cheating.
But I'm sure AI-Cheating is a part of both games. Although it seems like it is more obvious in PES than it is in FIFA. Anyways...
How does the AI cheat in FIFA?? Is it pretty much the same thing as in PES?
The thing is fifa is scripted in the same ways, but different ways.
Yeah in PES teams can randomly start playing brilliantly and score flukey goals, win every 50-50 etc etc
But in fifa say in manager mode or whatever, your team plays like Man Utd during home games, and like West Brom when they play away.
Just limiting the scripting argument to PES alone isn't fair, because it happens in both games.
Source : I own, and play, both games.
Maybe it is a bit scripted, because I am with Sampdoria on fifa 09, and Lecce are doing extremely well (stupid isn't it), and they are giving me a really hard time.
I mean that is a script, but with momentum. They are doing well, so they start playing really well.
Note: I am not saying fifa is better, but in case of cheating and scripting, fifa is more fair than pes.
Tech_Skill
27-04-2009, 12:50
Could you elaborate a little on this??
I know that there is "scripting" in PES09... But I haven't heard or read anything about "scripting" in FIFA09. I haven't played FIFA09 very much (maybe a few games here and there) and so I haven't really noticed any AI-Cheating.
But I'm sure AI-Cheating is a part of both games. Although it seems like it is more obvious in PES than it is in FIFA. Anyways...
How does the AI cheat in FIFA?? Is it pretty much the same thing as in PES?
Nowwhere near as bad as PES 09, it happens occasionally to me on world class against the top teams, the worst was one time cambiasso scored a near crazy volley from a tight angle after the ball had deflected off their player, off mine and then to him.
In the 89th-90th min, to make it 1-1.
Sickening.
It does happen, and on legendary the CPU is relentless, however you can still beat the top team and have a good game of football, for me legendary is a bit end to end and certain players are crazy, like Berbatov ronaldo and rooney, but I still beat these teams when i played them. I prefer world class as a better balance.
But pes 2008 was the absolute worst of the worst, every time you score, the CPU will find a way to get one back, ive seen defender run away from attackers, stop still, a lone striker marked by 3 cb's and still rising above all of them to get the header in, its crazy.
So yea, fifa has it, but it doesnt ruin the game and its not even close to frequency it exists in pes 2008/9 where you sit there waiting and expecting for the CPU to get that cheap goal its been looking for.
Vitumbiko
28-04-2009, 21:03
That's true Pes 2008 and 2009 were scripted! I remember I put this in one of the Pes 2008 forums and they laughed at me! :realmad: I'm glad some people have seen the truth! Pes 2009 and 2008 were SCRIPTED!
^Fully agree on what you said especially on:
where a complete n00b could beat a vet who had been playing the game for years simply down to 'luck'......artifically enforced AI luck that is
This is the most annoying things in pes. I used to win alot in 2 player matches in pes 5 because that game was based on skill more than luck. But from pes 6, I started finding it much more difficult to beat a beginner who started to play it only for a week or so, while I masterd everything on it.
I just doesn't make sense.
I almost-always listen to whatever MatTheCat says because I can see he knows PES... I fully agree with him about: PES has always been scripted.
But I've never really understood why he's so negative about PES6.
I mean... Sure it is more Arcade-Like than PES5 and the AI-Cheating is more overwhelming. But the game also provides you with more control and responsiveness to counter against the AI-Cheating.
And sure, many times the COM makes the difference in a highly contested match. But still: when I play PES6 against human-opponents the game demands more skills than when I play PES09.
On the other hand, PES09 gives you less control over the AI-Cheating. The game is designed so that when you feel that the "momentum" is against you -you- use the (R2) Strategies.
When the momentum is against you: use the (R2) Strategies, set your Defensive Strategy, and then continue scoring Goals via Counter Attacks.
When the Momentum is against you -you- use the (R2) Strategies... when the momentum is back to normal you revert back into your standard Formation... it's the same procedure all the time and you have no control over it; you just use the (R2) Strategies whenever the COM tells you to.
If you do not use the (R2) Strategies when the momentum is against you... you'll get to see all the details involved in AI-Cheating:
* You see how your Center Backs leave their positions just so the COM can score an easy goal. This happens very consistently and it is completely out of your hands.
* You see how your players cannot give the simplest of passes. Many of your passes go horribly wrong for no apparent reason other than the COM deciding it should go wrong. This happens whenever the “momentum” is against you.
* You see how the COM suddenly becomes significantly stronger and faster than you: winning every loose ball and every "midfield battle".
* Players like John Terry running and accelerating past players like Fernando Torres.
* Whenever you (or the COM) score a Goal from a Corner Kick... you never now exactly WHY, you just Tap some buttons and at times the ball goes in, other times it doesn't. A "yes" or "no" routine completely decided by the COM.
* Your own Defenders giving away a Penalty without your consent.
* Samuel Eto'o literally running circles around my Defense.
This is Why PES09 becomes so predictable and repetitive after a few plays. Because we cannot manipulate How the Momentum changes throughout a game.
It is completely out of your hands. You are basically taking a ride with the COM: you tap a couple of buttons here and there, decide how and when to pass or shot the ball -but- do you have any control over your Team's off-the-ball movement??
This is a flaw that should have been fixed with Next Gen Consoles and -instead- of improving on it, Konami actually made it worst with the infamous "Teamvision".
I don't have a problem with the momentum changing because it happens in real-life... but I do have a problem with the fact that I cannot manipulate how the momentum changes in-game.
It's just a bit disappointing when you realize that the COM is dictating almost everything for you.
Konami must give us more control and freedom to make our Own Mistakes and our own brilliant moves. Many "hardcore" PES Fans have turned to FIFA09 because of this, there's less cheating involved; it's more about YOU, and less about the COM.
I play PES6 against human-opponents the game demands more skills than when I play PES09.
It is a bit more skill demanding rather, but not enough.
Pes 5 was more skill demanding rather than luck.
PES has always been scripted. But for me, it really started getting ugly with PES 6 where a complete n00b could beat a vet who had been playing the game for years simply down to 'luck'......artifically enforced AI luck that is! For me, PES 6 was the most scripted although maybe that is only because we would still play that game 'competitively' and the instances where the AI both totally assisted and also conspired against me are much more prominent in the mind. As for PES 2008, I never had a single game of that since Nov 2007, therefore I cant really comment.....
But PES 2009 is it scripted.....Of COURSE IT IS! But since every single one of my gaming mates now plays FIFA 09 and PES 2009 online is soo god damn awful, I dont get much 2 player action which is where the scripting is utterly most infuriating.
Does it make it seem like 'the real thing'....CERTAINLY NOT!
What you are complaining about is the fact that 80% of forum members are snotty nosed pig thick little brats. Anyone with any sense has acknowledged the game has been scripted for years, the fact that it is aint even up for debate.
Fully agree...
Anyways, I wanted to know which PES versions do you consider the best of the series: Could you give me your Top 2 versions??
In my opinion I'd say PES5 and PES6... but I don't really remember PES3.
But between PES5 and PES6; I think PES5 feels somehow "fresher" than PES6. But the big letdown for me is that in PES5 I find that there are excessive fouls... it is practically impossible to tackle someone without giving away a foul.
And the other big PES5-Negative is when Inside the Penalty Area, I would've liked a bit more control/responsiveness with players like Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.
It's not cheating, grow up.
I agree. I find the cheating suggestions ludicrous... to be honest I wish the game cheated more... I am finding it way too easy.
wilsybill
29-04-2009, 20:52
People still saying scripting doesn't exist when the games actual designer and maker says thast there is?! I think I'd believe him over the guys on this board who think that scripting doesn't exist.
It is SO annoying. It makes the game not fun anymore. Totally takes away any element of surprise. You actually know when the CPU is going to score etc. No matter what you do you can't prevent it. I have actually dropped to professional level, but alas it's still there.
I played a world cup as England. Drew with Italy first game - hard game but I didn't feel cheated (1-1). Got beat off Finland 1-0 despite having 12 shots ON target (they of course scored a last minute corner). Third game against Thailand! Not to worry, an easy 3 points there then - NOT! I got beat 3-2. I was all over them for the first 20 mins and went 1-0 up. Thailand then began to play better than Italy and I couldn't get the ball. They equalised and then went back to being rubbish. After half time I took the lead and once again Thailand became Brazil of the 70's and equalised. Then surprise, surprise last minute corner and I lose 3-2!!!
The scripting or momentum shifts are in there but they need to be a hell of a lot more subtle. I want to play a game where I don't feel cheated. Make it MORE SUBTLE!!!!!!!
Tech_Skill
29-04-2009, 21:00
Either this vid is fake, or PES cheats/scripts and has done for years.
Obviously ive been playing PES for over 10 years, so I know the answers regardless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
If anyone still wants to argue im happy to post another vid.
Either this vid is fake, or PES cheats/scripts and has done for years.
Obviously ive been playing PES for over 10 years, so I know the answers regardless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
If anyone still wants to argue im happy to post another vid.
That's clearly cheating. But honestly, does that happen every game, all the time (like everyone is suggesting)? No, of course not. I've never seen anything like that AT ALL. I have seen about three things that come close:
1) a goal for ME, when the scorer was about 10 yards offside when the ball is played. Although it does also say that there was no assist (despite it being a blatant cross) so clearly it glitched and it somehow treated it as if a defender had intervened during the cross (which didn't happen).
2) a goal for ME, where I took a penalty low in the middle, the keeper stood still, it went through his legs (I'm sure we've all seen this) but then he saves it with his hand before ANY of the ball was over the goalline, let alone all of it. But it counted.
3) a random glitch that affected no-one. Twice, a player of mine has been badly fouled (on the turn, defender gets the supporting leg) and the player flies over, and his head twisted a full 360 degrees.
I've never had any Super Being (except Robbie Fowler) suddenly make the ball do a loop-de-loop in the air.
EDIT: that said, I have had games where the Com seemed to score with every attack. But usually they could miss anything. But when the Com is in a good mood, I have had some seriously fun games - a recent 5-4 win vs. Bolton springs to mind; 3-3 on 85mins, three late late goals.
^PES IS NOT BASED ON SKILL. IT'S BASED ON LUCK. Though you still ned skill to win, in 2 player matches, luck is the deciding factor. No skill needed.
Now back to AI cheating.
It does happen every game, but not extraordinay cheating. The AI players will always be better than you, but in some game they become supermen unlike in others.
Tech_Skill
30-04-2009, 16:21
^PES IS NOT BASED ON SKILL. IT'S BASED ON LUCK. Though you still ned skill to win, in 2 player matches, luck is the deciding factor. No skill needed.
Now back to AI cheating.
It does happen every game, but not extraordinay cheating. The AI players will always be better than you, but in some game they become supermen unlike in others.
Spot on.
Little things that go on in every game.
Exhibit 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnz04pZfpB0
Actually this one is better Exhibit 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcnwsq-5Ob8
The scripting was the main reason i decided to give the other game a try, it's been ramped up under the guise of this team vision shite since pes 2008.
Pure rubbish once again from konami, thankfully, I can play a better game of football without constant AI cheating in it.
^PES IS NOT BASED ON SKILL. IT'S BASED ON LUCK. Though you still ned skill to win, in 2 player matches, luck is the deciding factor. No skill needed.
Now back to AI cheating.
It does happen every game, but not extraordinay cheating. The AI players will always be better than you, but in some game they become supermen unlike in others.
Fully agree...
But I think it's safe to say that the overwhelming "AI-Chetaing" is there because the game is extremely one-dimensional in many aspects:
* When Dribbling: "fake shot" all day long, it never fails to work and it requires zero level of skill.
* When Defending: run, run, run, run, run, and when you're close enough release some buttons... it almost never fails, and you don't even have to THINK. And again; it requires no level of skill... You do not have to Think about going Left, or Right, or Center. There's no depth to Marking and Tackling: therefore the COM decides many things for you.
* The Balance between Defenders and Attackers: plain out ridiculous, the Attackers have a huge advantage over the defenders... I can basically score goals at will because the Defenders don't have the STATS nor the Animations to counter against the twitchy "fake shot".
* Off-the-Ball Movement: Completely determined by the Team Formation and the COM. This is the Main Flaw with every PES title to date: The Team Formation determines the movements of the players. Tactical Movement should be directly linked to OFF-THE-BALL STATS.
* The list of one-dimensional things keeps going and going...
In short: I fully agree with Shaun7.
In certain aspects, the series undoubtedly improves with each title albeit at the expense of the balance of overall gameplay. For me, PES3 was the pinnacle of the series in terms of gameplay balance. PES3 was the game that inspired the once monthly big tourneys between mates whereby we would have two groups of four in two rooms playing it out in a champions league style format with the semi-s and the grand final played in the front room with everyone watching. It was £5 per head entry and the winner took all (most) runner up got his fiver back. Great times were had. Then PES 4 came along and the sharks amongst us soon figured out that there were certain ways of trying to socre which paid great dividends such as the lob shots and of course PES4 saw the inception of the dreaded cut-back. The new found abundance of lame goals totally cheapened and hugely soured the tone of our little video soccer tourney get togethers. Our tourneys on PES 4 lasted till about Jan 2005 whereby they were disbanded. As a result of the new unimproved uberlame goal scoring methods, our tourneys left everyone wanting to break each others bones and almost caused a fight or two. For me, PES has never really recovered from PES4.
However, whilst I would state PES3 as being the ultimate PES I am well aware that by todays standards it simply would not do and that PES 3 would look and feel utter crap running alongside PES 2009. Despite the misdevelopment of the AI balance and the opening up of certain flaws in the AI which they (konami) simply cannot seem to iron out, the gameplay mechanics have improved vastly since PES's early days. So although I would love to say PES 3 rules over all other PES games. The fact remains that PES 2009 is the one I choose to play.
I'll see if I can borrow a copy of PES3.
But between PES5/PES6 and PES09: for me PES5 and PES6 are miles better -because- PES09 is not Football.
Football is all about Time and Space: I cannot get past the disproportions in Time and Space that I find in PES09. There's just no sense of Timing, you have all the Time in the world to think about whatever it is you're going to do next.
Too much running with the ball... not nearly enough Football Play.
To this I can add that Samuel Eto'o and every other fast player can literally run Circles around your defense... the Game simply doesn't feels like Football.
There are no Player Likenesses, Pace is hugely Overrated, Passing is dreadful -and- a very unrealistic amount of Space and Time.
On the other hand...
When I play PES5 or PES6: this games forced me into thinking faster, and in PES5 you could still contain Fast players... however this all changed with PES6 and PES08 and PES09.
When I play PES5 or PES6: although clearly one-dimensional and out of date, it feels like playing Football. The proportions in Space and Time are more realistic.
But the main flaw is that too many things feel like a "yes" or "no" routine... when I dribble past someone I never feel like I got through because of My Skill as a player, it feels like the COM allowed me to get past.
When I try to dribble past someone and fail; it feels like the COM decided I shouldn't get past... Unlucky I guess.
The Main Flaw is like Shaun7 mentioned; there's no SKILL involved, it's more about whatever the COM decides to do.
And of course...
The AI-Dictated "Momentum Shifts" that are scripted to go against you at some point in the game; this is when your Team's off-the-ball movement turns to shit for no particular reason... you have no control over this and you can only follow the Script.
The Eristic
01-05-2009, 04:30
Sometimes the "extraordinary" cheating boggles the mind.
Watch the Genoa striker in the top right corner. This goal stood (what's a little 1/2 mile offside to the AI when they need a goal?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rMY7UcsnqE
Amateur, that's what I was talking about.
Tech_Skill
01-05-2009, 12:02
Sometimes the "extraordinary" cheating boggles the mind.
Watch the Genoa striker in the top right corner. This goal stood (what's a little 1/2 mile offside to the AI when they need a goal?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rMY7UcsnqE
Both games need to work on their offsides, in the 'other' game, the assistant ref will get it wrong, especially off crosses sometimes, whether this is meant to mimic real life decisions i dont know.
Actually I like offsides that weren't "offsides". In all the game of football in reality, a mistake by the ref is 100% likely to happen.
The thing that I hate is that 90% of the time it's in the favour of the AI.
iamcanadianeh
01-05-2009, 16:49
Actually I like offsides that weren't "offsides". In all the game of football in reality, a mistake by the ref is 100% likely to happen.
The thing that I hate is that 90% of the time it's in the favour of the AI.
The only reason it happens more in favour of the AI is not due to "cheating." It seems to me that it's due to the fact that, as humans, we make unpredictable plays which the programming for the offside rule did not expect.
Also, I disagree about it being a good thing that the offsides can be wrong. Yes, this happens in real life, but it usually happens when a player is marginally offside. In PES 09 that's not the case, the errors I have seen are more due to mistakes in the actual interpretation of the offside rule, for example, when a player is not allowed to "tag up."
Tech_Skill
01-05-2009, 17:23
Actually I like offsides that weren't "offsides". In all the game of football in reality, a mistake by the ref is 100% likely to happen.
The thing that I hate is that 90% of the time it's in the favour of the AI.
I agree, if its a close call, i dont mind it going either way, on the 'other game' some player are clearly off and the ref okays it, same for me, there have been times im 3-4 yards offside, get the linesman gets it wrong.
Down to personal preference.
MysteryMan
01-05-2009, 18:04
They should let play go from offsides , if someone is in offside and he gets a pass but the opponent intercepts it don't stop the game , let it continue like in real life.
iamcanadianeh
01-05-2009, 18:16
They should let play go from offsides , if someone is in offside and he gets a pass but the opponent intercepts it don't stop the game , let it continue like in real life.
Yeah, that too. It's stuff like that that bothers me most.
Sometimes in reality, the offside is clear and yet, the goal is still given. I would like to see them in pes. It makes it realistic. I see these kind of mistakes in many games and I watch many football inculding serie A
and EPL. Sometimes even la liga and there will always be QUESTIONABLE REFEERING and offsides.
The only reason it happens more in favour of the AI is not due to "cheating." It seems to me that it's due to the fact that, as humans, we make unpredictable plays which the programming for the offside rule did not expect.
Not always. Sometimes it truly is down to cheating.
BTW, the offside rule in pes 09 works good in my opinion. Well much better than fifa 09's at least.
iamcanadianeh
01-05-2009, 21:28
Shaun7 - So you think that the CPU decided that it wanted to win and so it allowed an offside to slide? Ok. In those cases is it a marginal call or is it due to the problems like not allowing you to tag up properly or due to a riccochet off a defender where the referee should have allowed play to run on, etc? If it's the latter I can't see your argument because the problem is clearly due to across the board mistakes in the code, not intentionally scripted to happen at certain times (in other words it wil always happen under those or similar circumstances, as opposed to being triggered to happen when the cpu so chooses). If it's the former, I've never seen it and I think you have said that it doesn't happen yourself... So... What makes you decide it's cheating and not just poor programming? I'm not saying either is acceptable, but if what appears to be cheating can be explained in other ways then it's either a matter of opinion, or its simply a matter of what's more likely to be true. Again, if it's what's likely to be true then you have to ask yourself "why would Konami program cheating into the game?"
Hope I'm being clear and that I won't be flamed to death for asking what seem to me like pretty straightforward questions...
I hate off-sides that are NOT off-sides: it happens in REALITY -but- it is Impossible to Simulate.
Some things will never be possible on a Football Simulation: one of them should be bad referee calls, like off-sides that aren't off-sides.
Maybe include different types of referees: like for example a Referee that's more sensitive with Fouling, and a referee that allows all kinds of Fouls, etc, etc...
But a referee deciding to call an off-side when it isn't?? Impossible, leave that to Reality. This would Only be yet another "tool" for AI-Cheating:
* Scoring Random Corner Kicks.
* Your own defenders giving away Penalties without your consent.
* The Referee calling Off-Sides whenever he feels like it.
Personally, I think it's a blessing that we can have DECENT REFEREES on a Football Simulation. Unlike the Corrupt Ones we have in Real-Life.
This is one aspect of Football that's best left out of the game: base the game on SKILL, not LUCK.
MysteryMan
01-05-2009, 23:05
Also one more thing , when you score from an offside you ALWAYS , and I mean ALWAYS run to the side and celebrate and then after some time the comments. say oh no no no , it was offside... COME ON , ALWAYS the same thing , at least make a few different things like scoring a goal and the ref rules offside and you immediatly notice and wave your hand cuz ur angry and etc....
Shaun7 - So you think that the CPU decided that it wanted to win and so it allowed an offside to slide? Ok. In those cases is it a marginal call or is it due to the problems like not allowing you to tag up properly or due to a riccochet off a defender where the referee should have allowed play to run on, etc? If it's the latter I can't see your argument because the problem is clearly due to across the board mistakes in the code, not intentionally scripted to happen at certain times (in other words it wil always happen under those or similar circumstances, as opposed to being triggered to happen when the cpu so chooses). If it's the former, I've never seen it and I think you have said that it doesn't happen yourself... So... What makes you decide it's cheating and not just poor programming? I'm not saying either is acceptable, but if what appears to be cheating can be explained in other ways then it's either a matter of opinion, or its simply a matter of what's more likely to be true. Again, if it's what's likely to be true then you have to ask yourself "why would Konami program cheating into the game?"
Hope I'm being clear and that I won't be flamed to death for asking what seem to me like pretty straightforward questions...
The offsides do favour the AI more right?
But that's not the biggest problem.
When they want to score sometimes, they do it, even if it's offside. That's the cheating I was referring to.
For example.
If you have a player sent off, the game suddenly becomes different. The AI wil start to play alot harder and much faster that they will score even if it was offside.
What do you call that?
It happens in my brother's ML.
It's cheating. It's like the cpu allowed it to happen.
It's as if I posted that myself, spot on. Every single point I agree with!
PS. Nottingham FTW! :)
Iheartpes
03-05-2009, 11:34
Was playing ML last night, im top of my league.. havent lost a game in the last 11 games etc. Played Rotterdamm last night, they are right at the bottom. Whatever i did i couldnt score, Rooney on top form missed from 4 yards out, they scored 2 goals in 2 attempts. It seemed whatever i did i could not score, this was after winning my last games 4-0, 4-1 etc.
Its just annoying, you miss some easy goals and you just think "okay.. the cpu wants me to lose one" ;)
Was playing ML last night, im top of my league.. havent lost a game in the last 11 games etc. Played Rotterdamm last night, they are right at the bottom. Whatever i did i couldnt score, Rooney on top form missed from 4 yards out, they scored 2 goals in 2 attempts. It seemed whatever i did i could not score, this was after winning my last games 4-0, 4-1 etc.
Its just annoying, you miss some easy goals and you just think "okay.. the cpu wants me to lose one" ;)
Happened to me too. My agbonlahor who has 99 in both top speed and accelaration and has scored like 35 goals half way in the league had problem running past bordeaux defenders. At the end i got lucky and scored a goal. This is 1 time out of 100 it happened to me. next time i will probably throw the controller at the wall because of the COM.
Sorry for my english.
Sabatasso
04-05-2009, 09:38
I think the scripting should be there, but implemented alot more subtle than it currently is.
When HJK Helsinki manages to pressure Barcelona non stop for 90 minutes on Camp Nou winning 0-3 on away field and Barca can't keep the ball for more than two-three passes the scripting is wrong.
If the same thing happened against Real Madrid or Juventus I would not object, because winning against high profile clubs should be hard but it isn't unless scripted.
But simply making your players hit the bar/post, GK's making those once in a lifetime saves would be enough scripting in my opinion.
When the scripts make your team unplayable it's too much.
PS. when i notice the scripting taking too much control over my players I instantly switch to dribbling mode, after alot of training I'm quite able to dribble across the field with any decent player and put the ball in the net, making at least a draw out of scripted matches.
Well it depends on what kind of scripting. But still I prefer randomness and momentum of a team in order to play well/win when AI controlled.
iamcanadianeh
04-05-2009, 16:46
The offsides do favour the AI more right?
But that's not the biggest problem.
When they want to score sometimes, they do it, even if it's offside. That's the cheating I was referring to.
For example.
If you have a player sent off, the game suddenly becomes different. The AI wil start to play alot harder and much faster that they will score even if it was offside.
What do you call that?
It happens in my brother's ML.
It's cheating. It's like the cpu allowed it to happen.
I've asked this question before: "When you say the AI is offside, do you mean A.) marginally and due to a strict straight line that they are over, or B.) due to a mix up where a player is way offside, or shouldn't be considered offside because it riccocheted off another player, or the player should have been allowed to tag up but wasn't...?
I think that question is what's important because if it's B then it is obviously not due to intent on the CPU's part. The programming just was done poorly and they forgot to make it capable of making the right call under those circumstances. Sure, it might seem like cheating, but not everything is always as it appears...
Anyway, I just want to make sure I'm being perfectly clear what my take on this is. Not that it really matters, because if you want to think of it as cheating your certainly entitled to your opinion. I just want to stand up for those of us who don't see it that way.
PEACE :D
^Sometimes it is A and sometimes B. Both happens really.
Sometimes even in the replay they are offside, but anyway, it does happen in reality and I like that. I really do. It makes it realistic. However I don't like how this happens to AI controlled teams much more that with the team I am controlling.
The main problem with PES is that it always had, and apparently always will have AI-Cheating... too many things are decided by the COM -and- not by our actual skills as players. It's boring and repetitive.
The AI-Cheating is one of the Key LIMITING factors of the PES series... the sooner Konami fix this -the- sooner Pro Evolution will actually Evolve.
But instead of improving on it, Konami made it worst with next Gen Consoles... Now we barely even have control over anything:
* We barely have any Control when Defending.
* We barely have any control during Corner Kicks.
* We barely have any control when Passing the ball, at times you think that it's actually 6-Directional.
* We barely have any control over our Team's off-the-ball movement.
* We don't have any control over the "momentum shifts".
I think I've finally reached the point where I cannot play One Game of PES09. I have grown past that rubbish and want something better... I want a game based on SKILLS and not on LUCK.
And to be completely honest, there's nothing realistic about PES09, it's a pathetic attempt by Konami.
The only positives I can see are:
* Shooting feels better than in past years... but on the downside, too many "Slow Goals".
* Stamina is actually relevant in-game; players will get tired if over-used.
There's nothing else I can say about PES09, the rest of the game is complete rubbish.
iamcanadianeh
04-05-2009, 21:12
^Sometimes it is A and sometimes B. Both happens really.
Sometimes even in the replay they are offside, but anyway, it does happen in reality and I like that. I really do. It makes it realistic. However I don't like how this happens to AI controlled teams much more that with the team I am controlling.
Sounds like we understand eachother. I've seen some strange goals too which were clearly in the net but weren't called goals, strange keeper glitches, etc, too...
Dundon's
04-05-2009, 21:44
The main problem with PES is that it always had, and apparently always will have AI-Cheating... too many things are decided by the COM -and- not by our actual skills as players. It's boring and repetitive.
The AI-Cheating is one of the Key LIMITING factors of the PES series... the sooner Konami fix this -the- sooner Pro Evolution will actually Evolve.
But instead of improving on it, Konami made it worst with next Gen Consoles... Now we barely even have control over anything:
* We barely have any Control when Defending.
* We barely have any control during Corner Kicks.
* We barely have any control when Passing the ball, at times you think that it's actually 6-Directional.
* We barely have any control over our Team's off-the-ball movement.
* We don't have any control over the "momentum shifts".
I think I've finally reached the point where I cannot play One Game of PES09. I have grown past that rubbish and want something better... I want a game based on SKILLS and not on LUCK.
And to be completely honest, there's nothing realistic about PES09, it's a pathetic attempt by Konami.
The only positives I can see are:
* Shooting feels better than in past years... but on the downside, too many "Slow Goals".
* Stamina is actually relevant in-game; players will get tired if over-used.
There's nothing else I can say about PES09, the rest of the game is complete rubbish.
Spoken like a true veteran.
jdlsantos
05-05-2009, 01:17
I've been playing WE/PES since WE9(PES5) and the cheating has gotten worse through the years.
In WEPES2007(PES6) the cheated depending what style team you played. If you played a team with fast aggressive strikers they'd do a better job defending then your defenders. They'd become byline to byline players. I remember playing AEK Athens one time and Rivaldo in his advanced age was marking my midfielders easily taking the ball away from them. After Athens took a 2-1 lead, I kid you not I COULD NOT MAKE ANY PASSES OR EVEN LEAVE MY OWN HALF. I wish I was exaggerating but every single pass I made during the second half of the game either went out of bounds, to the other team or my player would extend his leg out and miss the ball leading to the other team getting it. It was a ML game but I had players like Cahill, Nasri, D. Silva, N. de Jong, M. Richards. Not all stalwarts of the game but above average players.
There's no point in talking about 2008 because flushing a toilet and playing that game where the same things.
But 2009 that game is a pro. I know some of you have mentioned it but you can "feel" when the computer is scored. I remember one game where the CPU was making a throw-in, the player I was controlling got hit off balance by the referee, the CPU threw it in, made a pass where I was supposed to be and the CPU took a shot and scored on a perfect curler into the top right corner. The name of the scorer escapes my memory but after that game I went into edit mode and looked at the player's swerve rating and it was in the high 50's. Yes the high 50's and this guy was bending the ball better than Beckham, Pirlo, Juninho, and C. Ronaldo combined.
Other instances of AI cheating...
-The AI switching your selected player during corners. The player you were controlling moves out of the defenders way and scores the game tying/winning goal.
-Goalies having erratic reaction times, they'll stop a 25yd Gerrard rocket but they can't stop the slowest of headers.
There's a ton more but I can't remember the rest.
I've been playing WE/PES since WE9(PES5) and the cheating has gotten worse through the years.
In WEPES2007(PES6) the cheated depending what style team you played. If you played a team with fast aggressive strikers they'd do a better job defending then your defenders. They'd become byline to byline players. I remember playing AEK Athens one time and Rivaldo in his advanced age was marking my midfielders easily taking the ball away from them. After Athens took a 2-1 lead, I kid you not I COULD NOT MAKE ANY PASSES OR EVEN LEAVE MY OWN HALF. I wish I was exaggerating but every single pass I made during the second half of the game either went out of bounds, to the other team or my player would extend his leg out and miss the ball leading to the other team getting it. It was a ML game but I had players like Cahill, Nasri, D. Silva, N. de Jong, M. Richards. Not all stalwarts of the game but above average players.
There's no point in talking about 2008 because flushing a toilet and playing that game where the same things.
But 2009 that game is a pro. I know some of you have mentioned it but you can "feel" when the computer is scored. I remember one game where the CPU was making a throw-in, the player I was controlling got hit off balance by the referee, the CPU threw it in, made a pass where I was supposed to be and the CPU took a shot and scored on a perfect curler into the top right corner. The name of the scorer escapes my memory but after that game I went into edit mode and looked at the player's swerve rating and it was in the high 50's. Yes the high 50's and this guy was bending the ball better than Beckham, Pirlo, Juninho, and C. Ronaldo combined.
Other instances of AI cheating...
-The AI switching your selected player during corners. The player you were controlling moves out of the defenders way and scores the game tying/winning goal.
-Goalies having erratic reaction times, they'll stop a 25yd Gerrard rocket but they can't stop the slowest of headers.
There's a ton more but I can't remember the rest.
This is where Pro Evo fails massively... I was expecting that Konami would finally fix that with Next Gen Consoles -but- how wrong was I.
There is NO Team Chemistry in PES, and Konami themselves have confirmed this by openly stating that To Date: the Team Formation determines how your Team will move off-the-ball.
As a result we don't have any difference between "Tactical Ability" and "Technical Ability". Leo Messi is a better Defensive Midfielder than Makelele... any fast/agile player with good balance -is- a great Defender.
This haves a very negative effect on the Credibility of the "Simulation". My Defensive Midfielders are Leo Messi and Sergio Aguero... is that realistic at all??
Konami should start developing New Concepts for Team Chemistry.
jdlsantos
06-05-2009, 15:07
Agreed Amatuer.
High aggression + high balance = excellent defenders.
They need to implement new rating algorithms. I'm not a fan of the Madden NFL serious but one thing they got right was player speed. a 290lbs.+ Offensive/Defensive Linemen with an 80 speed rating was not the same as a 185lbs. Wide Reciever with an 80 speed rating. Of course in soccer there isn't weight gaps of that kind with players but we all know the slower players usually play a more defensive role.
I'm not saying defenders speeds in PES should be crippled, but Puyol, Terry, Cannavaro, etc. should not be out pacing the likes of C. Ronaldo, Walcott, F. Torres. The only exception I see at the back position that might keep up with them is I. Cordoba and probably a few others.
The reason these upfield players have such a high work rate is because of the Aggression rating. I'm not saying Strikers and Wingers never come down to defend because that is not the case. Many of games I've seen these types of players come down the field to help occasionally, but in PES they pretty much do it all the time. Drogba, Messi, or Raul should not be near the penalty box every time I bring the ball down to the opposing teams last third of the field. If his team is down 1-0 with time closing in then I can see this desperation happening but not 5 minutes into the first half.
I also think the Balance rating should be tweaked as well. There should be tiers to it. Example, a Defender with an 80 Balance rating should not be pushed around by Adriano just because he has a 90 Balance. The player with out the ball can concentrate more on trying to take the ball away because he doesn't have to worry about dribbling the ball plus keeping his marker away. Now if Adriano was to be challanged by a Midfielder with an 80 rating he should stand a better chance against him compared to a fullback. This can work as a Rock/Paper/Scissor type of system.
The Technique rating is another one. It shouldn't just be for the way a player traps the ball or shoots, it should also cover how he keeps the ball away from a defender. Players like Riquelme, Figo, Juninho, K. Nakamura which aren't speedsters by any means still manage to bring the ball upfield because of their ability to keep defenders away. This should be implemented into PES. In the game, pretty much any player with an 85+ speed rating automatically becomes a Maradona-like ball handler. I think you've said this before Amatuer but there should be a dribbling rating for the wings and for the center of the field because those are two different animals. Only a few players can do both but in real life but in PES any Tom, Dick & Harry with decent pace become Zidane, Messi, Henry, Ronaldo all in one.
I agree especially about the team chemistry. It was always missing in pes.
^As I said, pes is based on luck not skill.
iamcanadianeh
06-05-2009, 20:30
Well, just for the record, I still disagree... :happy:
In my opinion, the game verges on being too easy, and to me that's a bigger problem. Even if the AI get a "cheap" one, you can always dribble through even the best defense with a skillful attacker and get one on one with the goalie, beat them one on one with a fake, or take a shot with R2 so that you are very unlikely to miss the net. That being said, I find the fact that the AI fights back to be welcome.
I play on Top Player in ML, and don't have amazing players. My best player by far is Darren Bent, and his shot acc is just below or at 80 now. He has the scoring special skill I believe, which helps, but he isn't an amazing finisher. If I had a better team I would definitely be able to school the AI in any match, so I don't understand this perpective. In other words I wish the AI "cheated" more actually.
Sorry... I take that back. Actually I wish the AI was just "better" and that dribbling wasn't as easy. And hopefully that is a good description of PES 2010 :)
To be honest, if I played the game with more of an emphasis on passing I might have a lot more difficulty and begin to see how the AI is cheating, but I want to win! So I always do whatever I need to to get that goal. Point is, in PES 09 that's a bit too easy, and by that I mean the opposite of what many are saying... I think it relies too much on "skill" and not enough on "luck." By skill, I mean dribbling, in other words, when I do score it is often too deliberate, not due to pressuring the defense and converting a half-chance. In real footy though it's often a little mistake or a player out of position (it does happen) that leads to a goal, not a player dribbling through an entire team. I do try to fight the urge to dribble my way to goal, but tbh, that option is always in my back pocket. And no, I don't have some secret cheap move that I rely on. Most goals are very different, but like I said, often too deliberate (i.e. I think, "I need to score," so I pass it to a good player, they dribble in, pass if needed, but force a goal more times than not, and if I miss the net I do it again but get closer to the goalie, and try to set up a shot I can't miss, using R2 - rarely - to make sure I hit the target).
Sorry, this will be my last post in this thread... Promise ;)
Here is a classic....
Earlier today, I played an online match as England V Spain.
1st half, my team were linking incredibly well and I was pulling off some stunning play that is not normally possible in PES. However, my strikers just couldnt hit the target
Off the post,
Off the bar,
Keeper makes stunning reflex save,
(NB* by this point I know exactly what is coming)
Keeper makes stunning double/treble reflex save.
Keeper makes physical impossible save whereby he changes direction in mid dive
etc etc etc
On 44th minute, my opponent scores from lame cross where his attacker was unmarked in my box. This was his only chance of the 1st hlaf.
2nd half, my side just cannot seem to link or keep possession, lots of passes going astray, players in poor positions, etc which results in my opponent dominating. But alas, he cannot seem to score.
In one of my rare 2nd half forrays into the danger area, I win a corner and score from that.....
With much at stake my opponent starts playing like a little n00b and going like fuck for an exploit goal....He gets one, he wins.
Oooh the thrilling excitement of it all....
YAWWWNNNN.
The scripting really and truly is not so much about little things like the CPU not giving away fouls and such as it is the AI imposing certain probability structures in the game. In the match I described above, it was probable that in one half, England were going to have the lionshare of gameplay but simply be very unlucky in front of goal. Since the AI is no more than a series of calculations, this can easily be done by tipping the probability in midfield strongly in one teams favour. The fact that I could not score in front of goal can easily be done by strongly tipping the probability equations against my opposition conceding a goal and vice versa should my opponent get forward and actually get an opportunity in front of goal, as hard as it might be for him to do so. The second half was simply a reverse of this and my opponents frustration led to him demonstrating jsut how easily this games AI can be exploited should a player really wish to do so.
The game is a bag of arse.
The whole AI-Scripting needs to change... we need to have more Control over it and we need some Key Stats for Dictating it. We should have the power of manipulating it, so that it can be based on Our Actual Skills as players -instead- of some random decision by the COM.
Manipulating the "momentum shifts" would be a skill we would have to master. Much better than simply following the Script that the COM comes up with.
It's been pretty much the same thing since always... only difference is that it is year 2009, it could only work for so long. Hopefully Konami will find a way of making the game more about SKILLS -and- less about LUCK.
Well, just for the record, I still disagree... :happy:
In my opinion, the game verges on being too easy, and to me that's a bigger problem. Even if the AI get a "cheap" one, you can always dribble through even the best defense with a skillful attacker and get one on one with the goalie, beat them one on one with a fake, or take a shot with R2 so that you are very unlikely to miss the net. That being said, I find the fact that the AI fights back to be welcome.
I play on Top Player in ML, and don't have amazing players. My best player by far is Darren Bent, and his shot acc is just below or at 80 now. He has the scoring special skill I believe, which helps, but he isn't an amazing finisher. If I had a better team I would definitely be able to school the AI in any match, so I don't understand this perpective. In other words I wish the AI "cheated" more actually.
Sorry... I take that back. Actually I wish the AI was just "better" and that dribbling wasn't as easy. And hopefully that is a good description of PES 2010 :)
To be honest, if I played the game with more of an emphasis on passing I might have a lot more difficulty and begin to see how the AI is cheating, but I want to win! So I always do whatever I need to to get that goal. Point is, in PES 09 that's a bit too easy, and by that I mean the opposite of what many are saying... I think it relies too much on "skill" and not enough on "luck." By skill, I mean dribbling, in other words, when I do score it is often too deliberate, not due to pressuring the defense and converting a half-chance. In real footy though it's often a little mistake or a player out of position (it does happen) that leads to a goal, not a player dribbling through an entire team. I do try to fight the urge to dribble my way to goal, but tbh, that option is always in my back pocket. And no, I don't have some secret cheap move that I rely on. Most goals are very different, but like I said, often too deliberate (i.e. I think, "I need to score," so I pass it to a good player, they dribble in, pass if needed, but force a goal more times than not, and if I miss the net I do it again but get closer to the goalie, and try to set up a shot I can't miss, using R2 - rarely - to make sure I hit the target).
Sorry, this will be my last post in this thread... Promise ;)
Have you ever played a 2 player match? 1 vs 1 with a friend?
If so how do you explain this:
Since pes 6, this has been a serious problem.
I played with Juve and my fried ( who wasn't sure what pes was) played with Man utd. I dominated throught and he got 2 cheap goals (he didn't even know what buttons to press). Then I got the draw. But for me it was a disappointment.
I hit 3 times the crossbar and his GK was superman.
Note: this happened in pes 6, but the same thing happens in pes 08, and 09 sadly.
Almost no skill involved in matches, always luck.
Have you ever played a 2 player match? 1 vs 1 with a friend?
If so how do you explain this:
Since pes 6, this has been a serious problem.
I played with Juve and my fried ( who wasn't sure what pes was) played with Man utd. I dominated throught and he got 2 cheap goals (he didn't even know what buttons to press). Then I got the draw. But for me it was a disappointment.
I hit 3 times the crossbar and his GK was superman.
Note: this happened in pes 6, but the same thing happens in pes 08, and 09 sadly.
Almost no skill involved in matches, always luck.
Fully agree...
It also happened in PES5 I think, although not as much... but this is definitely something that should be a priority.
Playable Online is one of the priorities -but- making the game more about Skills and less about Luck should be another Priority.
It's reached the point where it's obvious and too out of date. The game needs to massively improve in this respect, it's very disappointing to know that it requires no skills. And if Konami keeps using that same (scripted momentum shifts that go against you at some point) Concept... they will certainly loose some fans to FIFA.
The "AI-Cheating" or "AI-Scripting" was one of those things I ignored when I played PES5 and PES6. But you know it's year 2009 and I'm really bored of the same old BS.
^It did happen on pes 5 but not as much. Personally I got tired of this luck based thing.
At least fifa 09 is like pes 5. It does depend on luck, but skill plays it's own part too.
Now again, by this I don't mean fifa 09 is better. I am just saying what's better in fifa 09 at the moment, because fifa 09 has it's own major problems like the controls for example.
iamcanadianeh
07-05-2009, 18:28
Have you ever played a 2 player match? 1 vs 1 with a friend?
If so how do you explain this:
Since pes 6, this has been a serious problem.
I played with Juve and my fried ( who wasn't sure what pes was) played with Man utd. I dominated throught and he got 2 cheap goals (he didn't even know what buttons to press). Then I got the draw. But for me it was a disappointment.
I hit 3 times the crossbar and his GK was superman.
Note: this happened in pes 6, but the same thing happens in pes 08, and 09 sadly.
Almost no skill involved in matches, always luck.
I said I wouldn't post again, but Shaun has a direct and valid question for me, so...
Yeah, I live in Canada so I don't have a lot of buddies who are nearly as interested in footy or PES as I am. Online is broke, so mostly I play against the AI.
Now... We've talked a lot about the AI and how it seems to cheat, but you're talking here about playing mano a mano... That leads me to believe that you think the CPU chooses one side to win even if it's a human player! If that's true, then does the CPU sometimes choose for you to win even against the CPU? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify what we mean by "cheating." It's still very vague to me exactly what you, Mat and Amateur are really saying.
I've asked this before, "do you think the CPU decides that it wants to win?" Or, are you talking about the seeming randomness of when and when a goal isn't scored? If it's the latter, then that's something I can relate to more, but it's very difficult to call it "cheating." Cheating, to me would mean that the AI does it intentionally, whereas the randomness of when a goal goes in or doesn't is very different! If it's randomness, then I for one wouldn't call it "scripting." If the code is random however I can see how under certain circumstances it might seem like there is a "script" but again, which are you saying?
Scripting, or too random?
As for playing 1 v 1, I have been playing this series since the PS1 days, and even searched out and played Konami's original game for the nintendo, plus all the N64 titles, and everything I've been able to get my hands on since... I think I'm good at the game enough to walk into a match against any one of my Canadian buddies who know little or nothing about soccer, but on the off occassion, in almost any game in this series my friends have been able to pull off victories against me. I actually like that, but I would say that if you play the game regularly (i.e. every day) and go up against someone who plays it hardly at all or never, that they might win one match against you, but if you play 3, 5, 10 matches you will have the clear advantage.
PS - Anyone ever played NHL 09 btw? If you want to see a game where there is little skill involved and the AI decides when a goal goes in and when it doesn't, check that one out! It's amazing how hard it is to score (unless you do one of the 3 blatant glitch goals in the game), and when you do there's absolutely no reason why you can say that you scored on that chance versus the other 25 chances that were saved! In contrast PES 09 is way better IMO, but maybe I've just played it more and gotten past this issue. Who knows, but I enjoy it and I don't think the goals I score are cheap, repetetive, or even ugly. They're just often quite deliberate. Also, I don't score a ton of goals... Most times it's 2-1, 3-1, and lots of 1-0, and I don't always win obviously either (I'm just saying that I feel like I have a more than fair chance to win, which is all that matters).
My bottom line point is that I find this refreshing compared to PES 08 and others where I would regularly end up with 8-0 scorelines and the CPU could almost never score a goal on me.
PPS - Don't get the wrong idea here. I agree with Matt's point about how purists prefer to play a passing game and set up great goals that are less deliberate 100%. My point is just that I feel I have no choice but to try to appreciate PES 09 for what it is, and for that it's really not as bad as some make it out to be. Eventually, as I've come to appreciate it more and more, it's the AI's ability to score that I think makes it an advance in the series in that respect. If you choose to look at it that way I guess...
I said I wouldn't post again, but Shaun has a direct and valid question for me, so...
Yeah, I live in Canada so I don't have a lot of buddies who are nearly as interested in footy or PES as I am. Online is broke, so mostly I play against the AI.
Now... We've talked a lot about the AI and how it seems to cheat, but you're talking here about playing mano a mano... That leads me to believe that you think the CPU chooses one side to win even if it's a human player! If that's true, then does the CPU sometimes choose for you to win even against the CPU? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify what we mean by "cheating." It's still very vague to me exactly what you, Mat and Amateur are really saying.
I've asked this before, "do you think the CPU decides that it wants to win?" Or, are you talking about the seeming randomness of when and when a goal isn't scored? If it's the latter, then that's something I can relate to more, but it's very difficult to call it "cheating." Cheating, to me would mean that the AI does it intentionally, whereas the randomness of when a goal goes in or doesn't is very different! If it's randomness, then I for one wouldn't call it "scripting." If the code is random however I can see how under certain circumstances it might seem like there is a "script" but again, which are you saying?
Scripting, or too random?
As for playing 1 v 1, I have been playing this series since the PS1 days, and even searched out and played Konami's original game for the nintendo, plus all the N64 titles, and everything I've been able to get my hands on since... I think I'm good at the game enough to walk into a match against any one of my Canadian buddies who know little or nothing about soccer, but on the off occassion, in almost any game in this series my friends have been able to pull off victories against me. I actually like that, but I would say that if you play the game regularly (i.e. every day) and go up against someone who plays it hardly at all or never, that they might win one match against you, but if you play 3, 5, 10 matches you will have the clear advantage.
PS - Anyone ever played NHL 09 btw? If you want to see a game where there is little skill involved and the AI decides when a goal goes in and when it doesn't, check that one out! It's amazing how hard it is to score (unless you do one of the 3 blatant glitch goals in the game), and when you do there's absolutely no reason why you can say that you scored on that chance versus the other 25 chances that were saved! In contrast PES 09 is way better IMO, but maybe I've just played it more and gotten past this issue. Who knows, but I enjoy it and I don't think the goals I score are cheap, repetetive, or even ugly. They're just often quite deliberate. Also, I don't score a ton of goals... Most times it's 2-1, 3-1, and lots of 1-0, and I don't always win obviously either (I'm just saying that I feel like I have a more than fair chance to win, which is all that matters).
My bottom line point is that I find this refreshing compared to PES 08 and others where I would regularly end up with 8-0 scorelines and the CPU could almost never score a goal on me.
PPS - Don't get the wrong idea here. I agree with Matt's point about how purists prefer to play a passing game and set up great goals that are less deliberate 100%. My point is just that I feel I have no choice but to try to appreciate PES 09 for what it is, and for that it's really not as bad as some make it out to be. Eventually, as I've come to appreciate it more and more, it's the AI's ability to score that I think makes it an advance in the series in that respect. If you choose to look at it that way I guess...
It's not rocket science, it's plain and simple...
Whenever your Team's "off-the-ball" movement turns to shit for no particular reason -this- means that The Momentum is against you for the time being.
Whenever all of your moves are going perfectly and your opponent doesn't seems capable of doing anything about it -this- means The Momentum is in your favor.
What dictates How and Why the Momentum Shifts throughout a game?? Whatever it is, we have no control over it... therefore some people call it "Scripted" others simply say it's Cheating.
I also mostly play against the COM since most of my friends play FIFA09 -and- it is also very easy to spot when playing against COM or Human, it's the same thing.
Is there any Skill involved??
I almost-always win every game against inexperienced players... so with that in mind the game obviously necessitates some level of skill.
But whenever I play against someone who knows the game, it's usually decided by some COM gimmick like my "off-the-ball" movement turning to shit for no reason other than the COM deciding it should be that way.
I don't like the fact that I have no control over the "momentum shifts". I don't like having to follow some rubbish Script.
As for the Randomness...
The game is based on LUCK, and Not on actual SKILLS. Which is something you realize whenever you play Competitively. It's something Shaun7 explained quite well some time ago.
To date, all I do when I’m taking a Corner Kick is Tap the R2 + the Shooting button + the Crossing button - I don’t know why but I always score plenty of headers by doing this.
My main problem with this is that it requires zero level of Skill/Thinking, it requires zero level of Tactical play; outwitting your opponent.
You just Tap some buttons and the COM takes care of the rest, and if you’re LUCKY enough the ball will go in. A “yes” or “no” routine entirely dictated by the COM.
Entertaining - Yes, for a quick fix, maybe some 3 or 4 games.
Since I dont like your tone much, I think I will spoil the game for you.
To score a guaranteed goal everytime, simply run a fast untacklable player (C Ronaldo, Messi etc) towards the touchline and perhaps 2-3 relative feet wide of the goalpost. When you are about 1 yard or so away from the touchline having given yourself a rather improbable tight angle from which to shoot from, simply tap the shoot button and watch the exact same goal fly in time and time again.
Can you spoil the game for me too ?
By touchline you mean goal line right ?
I just don't get it, is there a video somewhere showing that ?
Thanks
Now... We've talked a lot about the AI and how it seems to cheat, but you're talking here about playing mano a mano... That leads me to believe that you think the CPU chooses one side to win even if it's a human player! If that's true, then does the CPU sometimes choose for you to win even against the CPU? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify what we mean by "cheating." It's still very vague to me exactly what you, Mat and Amateur are really saying.
I mean that especially on 2 player matches, the win is decided from the begining. Only few skill is needed.
And as for ME VS AI. It's almost the same thing, though it doesn't happen as much as in 2 player matches.
But I agree that pes 09 is 10* better than pes 08.
iamcanadianeh
08-05-2009, 19:14
It's not rocket science, it's plain and simple...
Whenever your Team's "off-the-ball" movement turns to shit for no particular reason -this- means that The Momentum is against you for the time being.
Whenever all of your moves are going perfectly and your opponent doesn't seems capable of doing anything about it -this- means The Momentum is in your favor.
What dictates How and Why the Momentum Shifts throughout a game?? Whatever it is, we have no control over it... therefore some people call it "Scripted" others simply say it's Cheating.
I also mostly play against the COM since most of my friends play FIFA09 -and- it is also very easy to spot when playing against COM or Human, it's the same thing.
Is there any Skill involved??
I almost-always win every game against inexperienced players... so with that in mind the game obviously necessitates some level of skill.
But whenever I play against someone who knows the game, it's usually decided by some COM gimmick like my "off-the-ball" movement turning to shit for no reason other than the COM deciding it should be that way.
I don't like the fact that I have no control over the "momentum shifts". I don't like having to follow some rubbish Script.
As for the Randomness...
The game is based on LUCK, and Not on actual SKILLS. Which is something you realize whenever you play Competitively. It's something Shaun7 explained quite well some time ago.
To date, all I do when I’m taking a Corner Kick is Tap the R2 + the Shooting button + the Crossing button - I don’t know why but I always score plenty of headers by doing this.
My main problem with this is that it requires zero level of Skill/Thinking, it requires zero level of Tactical play; outwitting your opponent.
You just Tap some buttons and the COM takes care of the rest, and if you’re LUCKY enough the ball will go in. A “yes” or “no” routine entirely dictated by the COM.
Entertaining - Yes, for a quick fix, maybe some 3 or 4 games.
Thanks Amateur, that explanation makes it clearer for me.
Not that I agree with your degree of exaggeration, but at least I understand now exactly what's being said. Sure, I agree, it could/should be better, but in my experience the momentum shifts are there, but they're far from making the game unplayable... In fact, I've found that the more you actually play the game the less you notice it, because you get better at beating the com and eventually their momentum doesn't mean a sniff. In fact, you welcome it. Whenever the momentum shifts in the com's favor - the timing of which I wouldn't expect to have control over anyway - all I say to myself is "bring it on b#@ches!!!" :D
Let me ask something just to see if I understand correctly. If the computer decides who wins, and no skill is necessary then why is it that Hooligans wins so much? Is it that the computer favors him?
This table reflects games since 2004.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/208/historictableforpesgami.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=historictableforp esgami.jpg)
As I said before. Skill play a small part (only a small part) while LUCK DECIDES THE WIN. Especially since the last 3 releases. This jas always annoyed me and has put me away from playing online or 1vs1 with friends.
I don’t mean to sound rude, but how can it be luck if the league is clearly dominated by him? Playoffs almost always have the same teams too.
I do believe skill plays a major part. Hooligans won his first championship with a clearly inferior team also.
No disrespect intended but I do believe we have different opinions on where luck stands.
Thanks Amateur, that explanation makes it clearer for me.
Not that I agree with your degree of exaggeration, but at least I understand now exactly what's being said. Sure, I agree, it could/should be better, but in my experience the momentum shifts are there, but they're far from making the game unplayable... In fact, I've found that the more you actually play the game the less you notice it, because you get better at beating the com and eventually their momentum doesn't mean a sniff. In fact, you welcome it. Whenever the momentum shifts in the com's favor - the timing of which I wouldn't expect to have control over anyway - all I say to myself is "bring it on b#@ches!!!" :D
Yeah but think of how much better the game would be if we had the power of Manipulating the "momentum shifts" throughout the game.
It would fucking awesome, in my opinion. But it would require a few New Stats and Concepts.
I used to be like you, I ignored the flaws of the game -and- actually enjoyed playing it. But after 4 years of playing it, it's simply impossible to ignore. Will it ever improve??
In my opinion, the more I play it the easier and easier the game becomes... logically. But it's just boring and repetitive because I have no say in How the Momentum Flows throughout the game. There's just no depth to the game in this respect.
Momentum Shifts are an essential aspect of Football. Therefore I think it would be a massive improvement if Konami ever updates their whole approach on momentum.
I don’t mean to sound rude, but how can it be luck if the league is clearly dominated by him? Playoffs almost always have the same teams too.
I do believe skill plays a major part. Hooligans won his first championship with a clearly inferior team also.
No disrespect intended but I do believe we have different opinions on where luck stands.
Maybe so.:)
But I am talking from personal experience. Also when I went to my cousin (he has the european version), we played online against a friend and he was really lucky. Guess what. He won.:no: He doesn't even know how to play the game. He always expoits the MAN utd glitch or what ever it is (he keeps crossing from the wings and it's really hard to catch them) and crosses the ball. That's only what he can do.
Now, ofcourse, you must have skill to play the game, but LUCK will always decides the win. At least that's how I see it.:)
I don’t mean to sound rude, but how can it be luck if the league is clearly dominated by him? Playoffs almost always have the same teams too.
I do believe skill plays a major part. Hooligans won his first championship with a clearly inferior team also.
No disrespect intended but I do believe we have different opinions on where luck stands.
It's like MatTheCat explained; 'exploiting the AI' is a very different thing from 'playing the game'.
You can choose to exploit all the flaws in the game, in which case you'll win almost every match. Or you can chose to actually "play" the game like it was intended to be played.
In terms of exploiting flaws within the game, that requires skills... But the issue that I have with it is that I find it extremely boring. I'm very good at exploiting all the flaws, but it's just boring and unrealistic.
And this is why IMO the game is more about Luck, and less about Skills. Because when you play the game properly, Luck haves more weight than actual Skills.
I think that if we could manipulate How the Momentum Flows throughout a game... I think that would add a whole new level of depth into the gameplay. Because "off-the-ball" movement is directly linked with the "momentum shifts".
Problem is that (currently) we have no control over the "momentum shifts" -and- then all of a sudden, our Team's off-the-ball movement turns to shit for no particular reason.
And off-the-ball movement is Key in Football, without it we cannot do anything. Sure we always get to 'manually' control One player... but what determines How the other 9 players move off-the-ball??
I think we need Off-the-Ball Stats or in other words Tactical Stats... to fix some long-standing flaws. It isn't fair nor realistic that Messi haves the same "Defensive Awareness" as Claude Makelele.
And alongside the New Tactical Stats, Konami should also develop a New Concept for the "momentum shifts".
If we could manipulate the "momentum shifts" throughout the game, I think that would prevent players from exploiting the flaws within the game. Which would make for a much better/realistic challenge.
I think "momentum shifts" should be The Top Priority for Konami, they must/should give us more control over it. And also over the Tactical game, which is something that Konami already mentioned in their press release.
Plus the obvious improvements; Animations and Movements, Passing, Graphics, etc, etc...
iamcanadianeh
12-05-2009, 19:07
It's like MatTheCat explained; 'exploiting the AI' is a very different thing from 'playing the game'.
You can choose to exploit all the flaws in the game, in which case you'll win almost every match. Or you can chose to actually "play" the game like it was intended to be played.
In terms of exploiting flaws within the game, that requires skills... But the issue that I have with it is that I find it extremely boring. I'm very good at exploiting all the flaws, but it's just boring and unrealistic.
And this is why IMO the game is more about Luck, and less about Skills. Because when you play the game properly, Luck haves more weight than actual Skills.
I think that if we could manipulate How the Momentum Flows throughout a game... I think that would add a whole new level of depth into the gameplay. Because "off-the-ball" movement is directly linked with the "momentum shifts".
Problem is that (currently) we have no control over the "momentum shifts" -and- then all of a sudden, our Team's off-the-ball movement turns to shit for no particular reason.
And off-the-ball movement is Key in Football, without it we cannot do anything. Sure we always get to 'manually' control One player... but what determines How the other 9 players move off-the-ball??
I think we need Off-the-Ball Stats or in other words Tactical Stats... to fix some long-standing flaws. It isn't fair nor realistic that Messi haves the same "Defensive Awareness" as Claude Makelele.
And alongside the New Tactical Stats, Konami should also develop a New Concept for the "momentum shifts".
If we could manipulate the "momentum shifts" throughout the game, I think that would prevent players from exploiting the flaws within the game. Which would make for a much better/realistic challenge.
I think "momentum shifts" should be The Top Priority for Konami, they must/should give us more control over it. And also over the Tactical game, which is something that Konami already mentioned in their press release.
Plus the obvious improvements; Animations and Movements, Passing, Graphics, etc, etc...
Do you set the attack/defense levels to auto or manual? You'll notice that when a team starts to push you more and make more aggressive runs that their level goes to red or just below... At that point you have the option to drop yours, and become more defensive (and also it's a good idea to activate the counter attack tactic at the same time), or try to gain posession and attack them yourself, because you also know that is when they are at their weakest on the counter. I always use manual - always have - but if you're not then I guess it could seem more "out of your hands."
Also - I think this is the first year where certain teams are generally always more aggressive at all times (PES United and WE United in particular). It might just be the first year I've noticed though.
Gunner11
16-05-2009, 18:44
I barely mention anything about Fifa, but based on the title of this thread, I thought this was worth mentioning. I was trying out this ultimate team feature that my brother had started, and I was winning 2-0. As I scored my third goal, you would not believe what happened. They counted it as an own goal. I've never experienced a glitch as bad as that before. I'm just thankful that PES does not cheat enough to the point where the computer starts depicting the outcome of a game.
gazwefc83
22-05-2009, 10:50
i dont mind all that what you posted expect for the appauling ref decisions (a perfect timed tackle) and your sent off and youve given away a penalty or freekick
and
the computer jumping into tackles for you (its supposed to be me verus another player or the comp) not me and the comp verus whoever
PwnOfTheDead
22-05-2009, 15:43
I barely mention anything about Fifa, but based on the title of this thread, I thought this was worth mentioning. I was trying out this ultimate team feature that my brother had started, and I was winning 2-0. As I scored my third goal, you would not believe what happened. They counted it as an own goal. I've never experienced a glitch as bad as that before. I'm just thankful that PES does not cheat enough to the point where the computer starts depicting the outcome of a game.
I would take that any day over the infuriating auto tackles/passes/clearances and players stopping dead allowing the COM to run ahead and score...
I have only glanced over the points on this thread so forgive me if I go over points already raised. I understand about the AI cheating but am wondering whether it would be possible to have a game of football in a video game without some element of the so called "scripting?"
I am playing PES 6 at the moment and well when comparing the scripting in it with pes 09, it feels so much more natural. Seabass admitted that there is an element of scripting in PES 6 but I do not notice much and I think it helps to keep the game challenging and fresh!
Obviously given the poor AI in PES 09 scripting is even more noticeable and thus well lets hope that Seabass and his team can sort it out in PES 2010.
PwnOfTheDead
22-05-2009, 16:39
There should be no scripting whatsoever in PES2010. Period.
thenotsogood
22-05-2009, 16:55
There should be no scripting whatsoever in PES2010. Period.
I agree. As Amateur stated in the early pages, that system would work much better and actually define next-gen football. Fifa has a decent system, you score, you can get a quick second if you play your cards right due to morale, but they flaw in the play good get momentum aspect, you could have a near goal line scrap for a goal, and it doesn't seem to motivate them one bit.
In real football, that bit motivation can easily help secure a goal or doom you to conceding another, trying to find that balance would be interesting in both online and offline play.
Also, I'm peeved about what just happened, last-minute equaliser, concede a last-second winner soon after. Just urked me because it seemed the defenders just decided to stop marking (especially the side-backs, my god they suck on this game when it counts). It was my ML team that I've been playing as for what was the hird game, so they sucked basically, and I played a beautiful posession game, and if it was real life, I would have had all the momentum, but I simply didn't due to the system in place.
I have only glanced over the points on this thread so forgive me if I go over points already raised. I understand about the AI cheating but am wondering whether it would be possible to have a game of football in a video game without some element of the so called "scripting?"
I am playing PES 6 at the moment and well when comparing the scripting in it with pes 09, it feels so much more natural. Seabass admitted that there is an element of scripting in PES 6 but I do not notice much and I think it helps to keep the game challenging and fresh!
Obviously given the poor AI in PES 09 scripting is even more noticeable and thus well lets hope that Seabass and his team can sort it out in PES 2010.
Pes had some scripting like when someone plays as Man utd, they always score no matter what, but it isn't even half the amount of Pes 09. Pes 09 is too scripted.
Pes 5 had the least scriptness.
iamcanadianeh
22-05-2009, 21:10
I agree. As Amateur stated in the early pages, that system would work much better and actually define next-gen football. Fifa has a decent system, you score, you can get a quick second if you play your cards right due to morale, but they flaw in the play good get momentum aspect, you could have a near goal line scrap for a goal, and it doesn't seem to motivate them one bit.
In real football, that bit motivation can easily help secure a goal or doom you to conceding another, trying to find that balance would be interesting in both online and offline play.
Also, I'm peeved about what just happened, last-minute equaliser, concede a last-second winner soon after. Just urked me because it seemed the defenders just decided to stop marking (especially the side-backs, my god they suck on this game when it counts). It was my ML team that I've been playing as for what was the hird game, so they sucked basically, and I played a beautiful posession game, and if it was real life, I would have had all the momentum, but I simply didn't due to the system in place.
It doesn't entirely solve the problem, but... Have you tried changing your SBs to CBs? This has always been a problem in PES, pretty much as long as I can remember, and to combat it I have been using CBs as SBs since about PES 6. However, I have noticed on PES 09 that I almost need them to be more defensive than they were in previous versions. Also, I generally use CBs in those positions (I mean position/stat wise). I know that you shouldn't have to do this, but I find I have always needed to do so to some degree in PES... Especially online, where certain player will always exploit space on the wings by adjusting the positions of their wingers unrealistically high and wide.
Also, like I said before, using manual attack/defense levels helps; that way you have a choice to try to keep them back. Not holding square to defend is important too, because it will drag a second man out of position. Sometimes that can be a SB, but the SB-out-of-position problem is usually there before you're involved with the play in that area of the pitch. :(
^Pes 5 had the best balance of attack and defence for sure. It gave the defence ability importance unlike in pes 09 (to a ceretain point though).
scripted AI? cmon man, it doesnt happens every time....
sometimes i tackled cpu striker hard, its not count as foul, and
sometimes cpu striker is nearly to make a score against me, and its just hits the bar.., and
sometimes, in 90+ minutes, i lose 1-0 against CPU, and got freekick from 30+yard, and i scored and the game ends draw...
^Skill is there, but LUCK DECIDES THE WIN.
I consider myself good in pes (not the best for sure) and I played some matches with freinds. The ones who play as Man utd or Barcelona will win. Your players will start to loose position for no reason, your GK will make silly mistakes, your players will become slow. While his will become really fast, responsive, his GK will become superman and he will score no matter what you try to do.
THIS IS FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I still like pes 09 though, but I had to admit that.
PwnOfTheDead
23-05-2009, 15:51
It's kind of like a love/hate relationship. No matter how frustrating the AI can be it's the one game that I play all year round.
As I have said before: I disagree. I have played more than 60 matches against other people, and that is only counting the ones that are needed for the league I play at, I could say that I have played at least 80 matches against other people. These matches are done with invented teams.
If the result is fixed, how do you know who is going to win here?
PwnOfTheDead
23-05-2009, 16:14
It only seems to be when you are playing the COM...
^It happens more in 2 player matches.
Understand this. SKILL is there. Ofcourse. But luck always decides who wins the game.
I don't want to argue on a proven fact. It's been there since pes 6.
I hope you're not seeing me as a pes hater. I'm just saying how to improve the game. LESS AI CONTROLLED. MUCH LESS. Even Fifa is AI controlled but not like in pro. It depends on momentum on fifa while on pro it depends on who the AI will pick up.
But still it doesn't mean I prefer fifa. NO. I don't don't. I like them both.
I still play pes 09 till this day and I do like it but it gets really frustrating.
I definitely don’t see you as a PES hater; actually I do believe the contrary.
It’s just that I don’t think luck decides who wins because if it were luck then the long run would show very balanced results and that is not the case in my personal experience.
In my opinion skills matter a lot more than luck.
That said, I would like less scripting also.
thenotsogood
23-05-2009, 20:56
I will sound like the typical PES player who sucks and complains, but I am fuming after the last three or four games I've had in the master league. I understand you start with a sucky team, and add to that I'm playing on Top Player, but it just feels that all the little 'mistakes' your team makes seems more and more deliberate as you play on.
Just then, I gave up a 1-0 lead through an AI controlled team-mate making the most horrendous sliding tackle from behind to concede the penalty. Then a simple ball into the box was cleared to bounce back off a defender and into the path of their forward to shoot into an open net. This annoys me because the forward was in a bad position, only lucky due to the mistakes my defenders made, and the keeper was in an even worse position, where the ball was going to, he had no right to go for it, and technically didn't... He just, came off his line, to be perfectly honest.
The game before that I crawled back to a draw, only to see a last-gasp winner from their team sneak into the net. A simple header into the box was fumbled by the keeper, the defender looked dumbstruck as this happened, mind you, I'd probably be the same, and then a forward simply nets the ball.
This is made even more frustrating by the simple fact that I had been dominating most games of the three or four (I admit defeat on one of the games, I simply fielded a poor team and performed poor myself), and by dominating, I mean I had more shots, and the keepers seemed invincible. Include to that mix the usual array of fouls gone unnoticed and non-fouls being incorrectly penalised for.
I am simply not enjoying the game right now, and the scripting seems all that more evident when you're up against the odds to begin with.
I definitely don’t see you as a PES hater; actually I do believe the contrary.
It’s just that I don’t think luck decides who wins because if it were luck then the long run would show very balanced results and that is not the case in my personal experience.
In my opinion skills matter a lot more than luck.
That said, I would like less scripting also.
Opinions are opinions :)
But whenever I remember from my experience (playing against an amateur on pes 6) I get mad. ;)
^It happens more in 2 player matches.
Understand this. SKILL is there. Ofcourse. But luck always decides who wins the game.
sorry.....what 'luck' do u mean?
my ML team now is undefeated (without cheating, with some rules), and based on ur opinions, i have amazing luck?
^Who said that?? ;)
ML doesn't count to a 100%.
I was talking about 2 player matches mostly. That's when the luck factor comes in.
Half of these scripts are down to you being shit, sorry but you must be utter crap.
Defending crosses is easy and i only conceed to lapses in concentration or poor button timing.
Freekick defending you should make your players jump! it's on the hardest rating it's going to be harder and they wll put away more chances when they get them.
The only bad thing in the game that needs changing is the whole sliding area the engine is unrealistic and they get up straight away.
They seriously need to add like 2 stars harder since most fall at the early hurdles maybe edging it slowly hard would be a benefit to greats like me :P
Half of these scripts are down to you being shit, sorry but you must be utter crap.
Defending crosses is easy and i only conceed to lapses in concentration or poor button timing.
Freekick defending you should make your players jump! it's on the hardest rating it's going to be harder and they wll put away more chances when they get them.
The only bad thing in the game that needs changing is the whole sliding area the engine is unrealistic and they get up straight away.
They seriously need to add like 2 stars harder since most fall at the early hurdles maybe edging it slowly hard would be a benefit to greats like me :P
It haves nothing with you being rubbish...
Forget about CK goals, the important thing is that when the Momentum is against you, your Team's off-the-ball movement turns to shit, and there's nothing you can do about it other than revert to a more Defensive Strategy for the time being.
And watch how the opposing team is winning all the space in the pitch, and winning every ball and every battle.
There should be a reason for those "momentum shifts". We should have the power of Manipulating how the Momentum Shifts throughout the course of a match. It should not be completely random and out of our hands.
Football is unpredictable and random since always, we really don't need any random "scripting" to make it feel more unpredictable.
As I have said before: I disagree. I have played more than 60 matches against other people, and that is only counting the ones that are needed for the league I play at, I could say that I have played at least 80 matches against other people. These matches are done with invented teams.
If the result is fixed, how do you know who is going to win here?
I dont know if the result is fixed. I somehow doubt it (but who knows).
Anyway, what I want to say is there is a LOT of other factors involved in 1vs1 games. For example, I noticed that the auto sliding mostly occurs to the team that's winning by a threadbare lead. The momentum shifts are SO predictable. If my team scores, the next few minutes, I'll have to ride out some insane pressure from my friend's team. In real life, it's the other way around: the team that's conceded needs to find a way to claw back into the game.
In short, I think both you and shaun are right. Although there is skill involved, it is too small, the luck factors too big, for the game to be enjoyable and satisfying.
^Excactly. I totally agree.
I don't think Results are "Scripted". But some matches are Scripted to go against you, that doesn't means that you will loose, it simply means that your Passing and off-the-ball movement will not be as good as it usually is.
You can still come out as a winner, even if the momentum is against you. But when you play competitively, more often than not, luck makes the difference.
This haves a lot to do with the game being based on the d-pad, it can only go in 8-directions... So the COM will always have to improvise when Passing or Shooting the ball - Luck.
Plus the Momentum Shifts that make no sense... Completely random and out of our hands.
Often, I get the feeling that the team that is the underdog will get an elevated boost of their stats. Shall we say, underGOD?
For example, the other day, I was playing as Tottenham against my friend's Man U and we both could feel how slow and stupid his defense was. Not only that, Ronaldo was easily being caught up to by my defenders.
I know it happens in real life, that Ronaldo isn't a demigod. But then don't go make him invincible in his stats and throw it out the window once the game starts. The stats parameters need to be more intuitive.
It takes away a little bit of the satisfaction when your 99 speed striker is being caught up to by a 68 speed 192 cm CB and finally hacked down without drawing a card :) ( and of course injuring your player)
I have some hope for Konami on this one though because the teaser shows some new sliders and stuff being introduced. Let's wait and see.
iamcanadianeh
04-06-2009, 18:54
Often, I get the feeling that the team that is the underdog will get an elevated boost of their stats. Shall we say, underGOD?
For example, the other day, I was playing as Tottenham against my friend's Man U and we both could feel how slow and stupid his defense was. Not only that, Ronaldo was easily being caught up to by my defenders.
I know it happens in real life, that Ronaldo isn't a demigod. But then don't go make him invincible in his stats and throw it out the window once the game starts. The stats parameters need to be more intuitive.
It takes away a little bit of the satisfaction when your 99 speed striker is being caught up to by a 68 speed 192 cm CB and finally hacked down without drawing a card :) ( and of course injuring your player)
I have some hope for Konami on this one though because the teaser shows some new sliders and stuff being introduced. Let's wait and see.
Do you repeatedly tap the run button when you have the ball, or just hold it? Almost any player can get outsprinted if you just hold the button. Also, it would have a lot to do with the stamina and fatigue level of both players.
Do you repeatedly tap the run button when you have the ball, or just hold it? Almost any player can get outsprinted if you just hold the button. Also, it would have a lot to do with the stamina and fatigue level of both players.
No, I repeatedly press it, so the player kicks the ball further. yea, I read the command list. But the mystery speed of the defenders has been in PES since WE 2007 (the first game I played). But now I think it is time to go.
Tech_Skill
05-06-2009, 15:42
Half of these scripts are down to you being shit, sorry but you must be utter crap.
Defending crosses is easy and i only conceed to lapses in concentration or poor button timing.
Freekick defending you should make your players jump! it's on the hardest rating it's going to be harder and they wll put away more chances when they get them.
The only bad thing in the game that needs changing is the whole sliding area the engine is unrealistic and they get up straight away.
They seriously need to add like 2 stars harder since most fall at the early hurdles maybe edging it slowly hard would be a benefit to greats like me :P
Mate your a paralympic great.
Cant believe this thread is still going on, the amount of vids on you tube proving AI cheating happens+ feedback from people who have played the game for years. Then a few knobcheeses come out with
"Its cos your shit, It never happens to me, Im great"
Pure Knobbery, fuck off.
pesman11
05-06-2009, 17:20
The truth is that if it were easy to fix these problems the designers would have done so already. I'm sure they are as aware of the imperfections as all the players are but there must be some complications.
Just master the game, even if it's not a perfect representation of real soccer.
I think it's not hard to stop AI cheating and scripted games. Pes 5 had much less of these. This has been the case since we 2007, pes 6. But now, luck is the biggest ever factor.
They can go back to pes 5 in terms of cheating and AI CONTROLED PLAYERS IN YOUR TEAM.
Tech_Skill
05-06-2009, 18:34
I think it's not hard to stop AI cheating and scripted games. Pes 5 had much less of these. This has been the case since we 2007, pes 6. But now, luck is the biggest ever factor.
They can go back to pes 5 in terms of cheating and AI CONTROLED PLAYERS IN YOUR TEAM.
Even pes 5 had its moments, pes 6 was bad but you could just about get by, pes 2008 was unbearable. And before any fucktwats start talking about how shit we are for noticing when the AI is going to score....On pes 2008 I won ML div 1 and 2 straight away with Juventus on the hardest setting (Very hard-top player i think), then gave the game back cos it was so shit and put pes 6 back in.
iamcanadianeh
05-06-2009, 18:48
Mate your a paralympic great.
Cant believe this thread is still going on, the amount of vids on you tube proving AI cheating happens+ feedback from people who have played the game for years. Then a few knobcheeses come out with
"Its cos your shit, It never happens to me, Im great"
Pure Knobbery, fuck off.
How about some links to these videos?
I'm not saying anyone is shit. Well... SOme of you might be... But my point is to clarify that there are obviously some people (myself included) who either don't see this as a problem, don't notice it at all, or find the challenge it provides to be a good thing.
It's not that I don't believe that some of you experience something which you interpret as cheating, I just want to make it clear that some of us don't see it that way or notice it at all, so maybe it has to do with the way you play, the teams you use, or the strategies you employ.
These videos might really help me understand if someone can direct me to them.
Tech_Skill
05-06-2009, 18:59
How about some links to these videos?
I'm not saying anyone is shit. Well... SOme of you might be... But my point is to clarify that there are obviously some people (myself included) who either don't see this as a problem, don't notice it at all, or find the challenge it provides to be a good thing.
It's not that I don't believe that some of you experience something which you interpret as cheating, I just want to make it clear that some of us don't see it that way or notice it at all, so maybe it has to do with the way you play, the teams you use, or the strategies you employ.
These videos might really help me understand if someone can direct me to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcnwsq-5Ob8
*Yawn*
I cant believe im having to post vids on this, i thought most people who played pes since psx days knew pes has ALWAYS cheated to some degree, and fifa 09 does it as well.
Even pes 5 had its moments, pes 6 was bad but you could just about get by, pes 2008 was unbearable. And before any fucktwats start talking about how shit we are for noticing when the AI is going to score....On pes 2008 I won ML div 1 and 2 straight away with Juventus on the hardest setting (Very hard-top player i think), then gave the game back cos it was so shit and put pes 6 back in.
True, pes 5 had it's moments, but the game was mostly based on skill not on luck. From pes 6 onwards, the luck fctor increased, and from pes 2008, luck is the difference maker since the AI randomly switches momentum. In pes 5 you had much more control. Even in pes 6, but still it was a bit less than in 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcnwsq-5Ob8
*Yawn*
I cant believe im having to post vids on this, i thought most people who played pes since psx days knew pes has ALWAYS cheated to some degree, and fifa 09 does it as well.
The first video is totally nonse and I wouldn't guarantee thats all real.
The second video is real true and happens to me all the time, good thing someone has taped it.
I think it's not hard to stop AI cheating and scripted games. Pes 5 had much less of these. This has been the case since we 2007, pes 6. But now, luck is the biggest ever factor.
They can go back to pes 5 in terms of cheating and AI CONTROLED PLAYERS IN YOUR TEAM.
It's actually VERY hard to stop AI cheating and scripting. Because then Konami will actually have to program POSITIONAL defense.
See when the defender is in the right position, he can make a proper effort to pry the ball away from the opposition. Instead, PES defenders run helter skelter and when they realize "OH no! Messi is on a breakaway!" You'll see boosters attached to their feet and they propel forward magically or they hack you down and don't get a booking. It's really funny to watch if it isn't you getting screwed over.
So the much easier way would be to elevate the AI's stats according to the situation.
^Well, how come pes 5 had much less of this issue? What went wrong in pes 2008 and in pes 09 ( a bit less than 08 but still).
^Well, how come pes 5 had much less of this issue? What went wrong in pes 2008 and in pes 09 ( a bit less than 08 but still).
I ask myself the same question. It's as much a mystery as it is to you. Here's to hoping for less scripting and better gameplay in PES 2010 :)
Tech_Skill
06-06-2009, 09:39
^Well, how come pes 5 had much less of this issue? What went wrong in pes 2008 and in pes 09 ( a bit less than 08 but still).
PES 08 was was the begining of the end, because they started really ramping up this teamvision bolllocks.
Remember this garbage by Konami???
It went something like
"You cant keep doing the same tactics because they AI adapts to your style of play"
When it really was
"We'll just ramp up the AI capabilities above yours+ add scripting so you cant win every game".
Bad news is, this crap is going to be in pes2010, but they reckon they've re done it this time.
hmmmmmmmmm
^Yes, but in pes 09 it was less than 08. However I beleive that they can go back to the strong point in pes 2010.
Tech_Skill
06-06-2009, 11:39
^Yes, but in pes 09 it was less than 08. However I beleive that they can go back to the strong point in pes 2010.
Yeah, the crazy AI was better in 09, but it was still bad.
When you get pes 2010.
All you need to do is play barca, in the camp nou.
Top player.
Then when you score 1st, see how the cpu behaves, that how you know how bad it is.
PES 08 was was the begining of the end, because they started really ramping up this teamvision bolllocks.
Remember this garbage by Konami???
It went something like
"You cant keep doing the same tactics because they AI adapts to your style of play"
When it really was
"We'll just ramp up the AI capabilities above yours+ add scripting so you cant win every game".
Bad news is, this crap is going to be in pes2010, but they reckon they've re done it this time.
hmmmmmmmmm
I remember when I 1st read that, I was LMAO because it made no sense to me. Clearly flawed... How is it possible that you cannot use the same Tactics every time??
Barcelona - do they change their tactics when they play against Man Utd or Chelsea?? No, they always play to their strengths, they always play their game.
Chelsea - do they change their tactic when they play against Barcelona?? Yes, because they know Barcelona is superior at playing Possession Football. So in turn, they change into more Anti-Football tactics. In an effort to intimidate smaller and more skillful players, trying to stop the flow of the play and relying on Long Ball Tactics.
Which is To Date, a huge flaw of PES - the Formation and Strategies determines how your Team plays. There is barely no difference between Barcelona and Chelsea, AC Milan or Man Utd, etc, etc. This is something that should be dictated by each Individual's Stats... in other words each individual's Strengths.
PES needs New Stats and Special Abilities, it's that simple... Perhaps the PS2 could not handle anymore Stats -but- the PS3 certainly can handle more Stats and Special Abilities than PES4.
My suggestion on this matter is...
Konami should implement New Stats and Special Abilities, they need to upgrade their Foundations... they need to get rid of the old and one-dimensional "Arrows System". They should implement an in-game Gauge for Confidence Level and for Stamina.
The Confidence Level will dictate How the Momentum Shifts throughout a game, actively changing (going up and down) throughout the course of a game. Therefore dictating How Your Team moves off-the-ball, which is something that (to date) we have no control of.
We have control of choosing different options, in terms of Strategies. How well your players execute whatever strategy you want to use?? Entirely dictated by the COM.
In addition to this, logically, Konami should implement New Tactical Stats to determine How Good an individual is at moving off-the-ball. Which again is something that (to date) we cannot control.
And in addition to this, some Work Rate Stats to determine how much an individual Runs Off-the-Ball. And also another Stat for Player Demands, to determine how much of a "superstar" an individual is.
The Work Rate and Awareness Stats + Consistency and Mentality Stats + Player Demands Stat -would- be the Key Stats to dictate how the Confidence Level Gauge works for each individual.
How well you move and How much you move -are- completely different things, that we should never determine. Player Demands are also another thing that we cannot determine.
Yes we should have the option of sending more than One player on attacking runs -BUT- we should not "manually" control those runs. It's very easy to have great Awareness if you're seeing every gap from The Wide View Perspective
How well an individual executes your thoughts should be down to Stats and STATS only. Otherwise the game becomes an arcade affair, with barely any differences between Individuals and Teams... everything becomes repetitive very quickly.
Player Demands?? In a Team full of "superstars" everyone wants a piece of the ball; Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Henry, Eto'o. Therefore, if you over-use Leo Messi -this- would result in other Key Players having "Low Confidence" because they are not touching the ball enough.
This is the price of managing Big Teams full of superstars. And it certainly isn't an issue in smaller Teams. No one haves a problem with Antonio Cassano in Sampdoria, he is the big fish in there and his team-mates are fully aware of that.
However in a Team like Real Madrid you have a lot of EGOS and you have to find a way of making those "egoes" work successfully as a unit. Which is not as easy as it looks.
It is also worth mentioning that Player Demands would vary depending on the Role and Stats of each individual.
Riquelme is not flexible with his approach to the game, he plays his game and that's it, you force him into playing in the Wings or as a Second Striker -and- that will not have a positive effect on Riquelme. Therefore Riquelme haves High Player Demands in that he only likes to play One Role.
Ronaldinho would not be "ok" if he was employed in a deeper role that requires Defensive effort, and deprives him from attacking play. etc, etc.
All this together would force us into having a Realistic Balance in the Team.
Bottom Line??
Konami needs to replace their very one-dimensional "Arrows" System -with- a new system that continuously changes in-game. This system could very easily dictate the Momentum Shifts, and should complement with a gauge for Stamina and a stat for Player Demands.
This would add a whole new layer of substance to the gameplay, new elements of Team Chemistry amongst other things... forcing us to play with different players, and avoiding the over-use of players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Encouraging Collective Play.
This are the types of gimmicks that Konami should start implementing into their game. And of course, Motion Capture is a must in this day and age. And no comment on the 8-Directional Movement... it obviously needs to be upgraded.
The Random Feel of PES?? Football is random and unpredictable by nature. Even if the game is 100% based on Skill, it would still feel random.
That's my two cents on the whole "Scripting" debate. It happens in real life and should be a part of every Football Sim... but we must have the power of Manipulating how the Momentum Shifts in-game. Which is something we cannot do at the moment.
PS - Apologies to anyone offended or annoyed by long posts.
I dont think this is true.
Back in the days of PES3 & PES4 on PS2, I used to sit and do a few homemade teams using the Editor which took me fucking ages.
Anyways, I would generally superimpose my teams over 'non-important' sides. The end result was that I would have a Dundee Utd or Aberdeen 80's Superstar Select with individual players with stats ramped up high enough to put Real Madrid or Inter to shame. However, my made up teams seemed to lack that special 'something' that made the in-built top teams a bit special to play with. Although playing my made up teams against each other often made for very entertaining exciting but scrappy games as you had none of the clinical AI steering of the game but with high quality players at your disposal.
Therefore, I would suggest that in PES, the teams do have thier own 'style masks' which will influence what the team is like to play with overall, regardless of personnel or tactics/strategies.
That's your opinion, and I respect it. I don't remember PES3 nor PES4 enough to comment on them.
But IMO, if there is such a difference, it isn't nearly enough. I have tried a lot of things with PES6, and the difference is pretty much irrelevant. In PES6, and PES08, and PES09 there is no such thing as Team Chemistry.
It is also worth mentioning that Konami themselves said that "In previous PES games, the team formation has determined the movements of the players. PES 2010 introduces a new system wherein the individual attacking and defending nature of the players is integral to the way they play".
Perhaps this wasn't the case in PES3 and PES4, I don't know... but it was a looong time ago.
Just came fresh off the biggest cheat-fest I've seen PES pull off. I wish there was a way to post an entire Masterleague game online. 23 shots on target and the 17 year old Van Der Sar with some bullcrap 79 response stops ALL of them. ALL F*CKING SHOTS!! But the one shot that the computer has on target by Torres goes in. By the way, I have an almost fully developed Huber in hot red form.
I've had defenders with 77 speed catch up to my fastest runners, injuries on my players without booking, illegal tackles in the box, uncontrollable auto-sliding, magnetic balls, etc etc. All in the same game.
I'm down for a tough soccer game but I'm not going to sell my soul by going along with this shit. If PES 2010 (or FIFA) pulls off so much as a hair's breadth of scripting and stats boosting, I will vow to never buy a game from the company again.
Lol, I'm sure you all have had the experience where you're wonder WHO THE HELL is that blazing fast defender overtaking your 97 top speed 94 acceleration and 95 dribble speed winger and you check formation marking settings and see that the joe shmuck has a top of 77 and you just want to scream your head off.
I'm uninstalling PES permanently and hoping that 2010 wont have scripting. If it does, goodbye Konami.
pesman11
09-06-2009, 15:59
I feel for you wowie...it is very annoying when a guy like Walcott or Messi or Ronaldo gets run down from behind by some joe shmoe fool with average speed.
however, i gotta say that 23 shots on target and no goals...that's not just the game pal you gotta be putting those babies away.
LFCPower
09-06-2009, 18:05
You must have some shit players, 23 shots on target an no goals.
Take it from me, just stop playing the game
Tech_Skill
09-06-2009, 18:39
I've had defenders with 77 speed catch up to my fastest runners, injuries on my players without booking, illegal tackles in the box, uncontrollable auto-sliding, magnetic balls, etc etc. All in the same game.
Lmao, seen it all, pes 2008, seriously, i might actually get myself another copy of that game, just for jokes, its that bad, most scripted PES by a fucking mile.
Unfortunatley according to some of the morons on the forum this =
"You are shit, otherwise it wouldnt happen"
To them, i point out the following.
1) Fuck you.
2) PES 2008 I won the master league D1 and D2 right away on the hardest setting, who cares, it was the most horrible master league ever of all time, even when i won the scores were like 5-2, 3-1, even 6-4, just stupid, the AI nearly always found a way to score in every game. The winning doesnt mean shit if you dont enjoy it when you win.
3) Its meant to be an enjoyable game, you know, something you can relax and play in your spare time. It isnt meant to be a complete mind fuck to the point where you get paranoid every time you go 1-0 up cos you know the AI will fuck you up somehow.
All of a sudden, your passing goes off, the AI seems that little bit faster, Peter crouch can catch Obafemi Martins in a straight line, the ball always deflects back to the AI, that kinda shit, its disgusting.
I came on here a year ago cos Mat the cat was taking so much fucking stick for pointing these things out to the noobs, who were telling him it was all in his head and a load of bollocks, about a year later they finally starting to work out that the AI does cheat, after numerous posts, videos, and an education that you'd have to pay for anywhere else.
iamcanadianeh
09-06-2009, 21:36
Lmao, seen it all, pes 2008, seriously, i might actually get myself another copy of that game, just for jokes, its that bad, most scripted PES by a fucking mile.
Unfortunatley according to some of the morons on the forum this =
"You are shit, otherwise it wouldnt happen"
To them, i point out the following.
1) Fuck you.
2) PES 2008 I won the master league D1 and D2 right away on the hardest setting, who cares, it was the most horrible master league ever of all time, even when i won the scores were like 5-2, 3-1, even 6-4, just stupid, the AI nearly always found a way to score in every game. The winning doesnt mean shit if you dont enjoy it when you win.
3) Its meant to be an enjoyable game, you know, something you can relax and play in your spare time. It isnt meant to be a complete mind fuck to the point where you get paranoid every time you go 1-0 up cos you know the AI will fuck you up somehow.
All of a sudden, your passing goes off, the AI seems that little bit faster, Peter crouch can catch Obafemi Martins in a straight line, the ball always deflects back to the AI, that kinda shit, its disgusting.
I came on here a year ago cos Mat the cat was taking so much fucking stick for pointing these things out to the noobs, who were telling him it was all in his head and a load of bollocks, about a year later they finally starting to work out that the AI does cheat, after numerous posts, videos, and an education that you'd have to pay for anywhere else.
All I can say is that when I go home at the end of the day, I play ML on Top player, I don't sign superstars, and have a blast - no complaints about cheating from me, and I haven't once had an auto foul in the box. I'm not sure if this is what causes it, but I never hold the square button around the player with the ball.
I don't think I'm the best at the game, but I do well enough. I'm undefeated in the last 11 games right now, coming off last season where i lost in the champions league final to AC Milan, and lost in the League cup to Chelsea. Both of those games I lost were epic battles, and I can't wait to win them this time around.
I'm just trying to share this experience because I think there are some people like myself who actually find the AI in 09 to be an improvement due to the challenge it brings. Around this time last year I was winning everything 8-0 in PES 08, so to me it's great that I can have been playing the game this long and still not be blowing the AI out of the water (getting there this season though, and I think if I had some superstars it would be another case).
Also, IMO, when a team goes down 1-0 they do often charge back in real life. The difference in AI between 08 and 09 is that when they charge back they don't get caught as easily on the counter, so you can't run up the score. You have to fight hard for each goal, and personally I love it when the keeper saves everything I'm throwing at him... Just makes it that much better when I do finally score...
3) Its meant to be an enjoyable game, you know, something you can relax and play in your spare time. It isnt meant to be a complete mind fuck to the point where you get paranoid every time you go 1-0 up cos you know the AI will fuck you up somehow.
Haha! SO TRUE! I've actually stopped celebrating my goals because I know they'll probably score back immediately. I have to scramble to make a meaningless sub to hold the lead.
Btw, for people that were saying that I must be shit or my players are shit(in a bad way :)), I havent lost a cup match yet and I am a Superstar team in the fourth season with the highest scorer and assist on my team (aguero and kaiser).
To test how bad the scripting is, I made a temporary change yesterday where played Barca vs. Chelsea with Terry's stats all changed to 1 (Attack = 1, Defense = 1, etc.) He still catches up with Etoo!
This is what happens when the computer is your opponent, controls 10 of your players AND is the ref :)
Tech_Skill
10-06-2009, 09:53
To test how bad the scripting is, I made a temporary change yesterday where played Barca vs. Chelsea with Terry's stats all changed to 1 (Attack = 1, Defense = 1, etc.) He still catches up with Etoo!
This is what happens when the computer is your opponent, controls 10 of your players AND is the ref :)
Oh shit, I can't believe i never thought of that, its so obvious, so if change eto, messi and henry's stats to 1....they still score those crazy goals?
If so, that proves the CPU cheats.
iamcanadianeh
12-06-2009, 03:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcnwsq-5Ob8
*Yawn*
I cant believe im having to post vids on this, i thought most people who played pes since psx days knew pes has ALWAYS cheated to some degree, and fifa 09 does it as well.
Thanks. Finally got a chance to check those out.
1st one is obviously either fake, or it's something no one else has ever seen. Not worth discussing anyway...
2nd video is pretty good, but a few things:
1. The movement towards the player is a failed attempt to shoulder charge. If you have a look at it you can see that this is clearly a game feature which is problematic. We need to have a reasonable definition of what cheating is though. A gameplay glitch is not the same as cheating! In other words, the CPU didn't decide to make that happen so that they can have the ball.
2. The one glitch they show with the keeper who makes the save without touching the ball... Again, I agree this is a glitch, and probably one of the worst ones in this year's game, but if you think it's done on purpose, I think it's a stretch to call it cheating. If you interpret it as cheating by the CPU so that they will win, then again, ask yourself why, and also ask why it happens in your own favour as well. Sorry, I just really don't buy into this conspiracy theory. I think of it more as problems with the game, which every game has.
3. The miraculous save with the keeper's leg... Again, just an utter coincidence. Do you really think the keeper AI is that good? No, these things are really only happening because of bad, or inadequate AI (because the designers can't possibly predict every possible occurence that can happen). If you watch the keeper's animation, then it's clear that he makes one canned animation, very smooth, and that the trajectory of the ball just happens to hit his leg. Reading more into it than that is just crazy!!! It's actually the exact opposite of what the caption in the video says, because the keeper didn't know that the ball would be centered. If there was a distinct kicking motion by the keeper that woud be another thing, but it's clearly one simple animation and a pure coincidence.
One more thing - there has been some talk about defenders catching up to attackers, even with lowered stats... On Top Player in PES 09 it's true that just about no player can outrun a defender with the ball. That's just the way it is, and the reason for this is that it has been too easy to exploit, particularly on the wings, in previous versions. TBH, that is a bit unrealistic, but again, it's one thing to point out unrealistic AI or glitches, but to claim that the AI somehow knows what you are doing and plans to make certain things happen so that they will win is something I think you need to think real long and hard about before flaming others for not looking at it that way. You're entitled to have that opinion, but I'm on here to say that it really seems much more clear and obvious if you look at it as parts of the programming of the game which may seem a certain way, but really are not put in there to piss you off. Again, I'm not saying that these things don't happen, just that I don't believe the conspiracy theory for one second. There are several facts which in fact disprove this, the main one, as I mentioned before, is that the AI will push forward when down a goal (as often happens in a real game) but their success rate at finishing is far from being better. In fact, I have seen them miss open nets, penalties, etc when they are pressing hard. I also think the appearance that your own passes go astray on purpose is an illusion as well, due the AI pressing harder (when under pressure passes go astray when players have lower technique, and when the other team presses more they are also much more likely to intercept).
Anyway, it's been an interesting topic for me, just because I feel that some people are misunderstanding the game, and how games in general work... but I think those are my final words now that I've had a chance to respond to the kinds of things that people are talking about specifically.
There is Cheating... I'm not even going to bother repeating everything that's been said in here.
The Momentum Shifts are completely out of you hands, and are entirely Dictated by the COM -this- is how PES09 works. And in my opinion it's scripted -depending- on some pre-determined numbers; how much the COM will attack, how much times you will attack, etc, etc.
Scripted doesn't means that the result is decided before hand. It just means that the Momentum Shifts will go against you in That game. Therefore your Team's off-the-ball movement and Passing will not be as good as usual.
That said, you can still easily win by using the appropriate Strategies. Although it still is quite boring because the COM haves too much control over your Team, and there's nothing you can really do about that.
This all goes hand-in-hand with the fact that PES still is to this day 'based' on the d-pad which is an 8 Directional Control. So whenever a Passing angle or Shooting angle is too intricate for the d-pad to handle -the- COM starts improvising, and this is when the Luck factor comes in, which is quite consistently.
The fact that the game is excessively Assisted by the COM is indicative of "Scripting". Or in other words Cheating, because it is completely out of your hands, the off-the-ball movement of your players is completely out of your hands.
There's really nothing else to say here. Some people notice this when they play the game -but- other people (for some reason) do not notice it enough.
iamcanadianeh
12-06-2009, 15:37
Thanks Amateur. That's a good summary of your perspective. Again, I totally disagree. I think it may seem that your team performs worse, but that it's just an illusion. I hope we both agree that you shouldn't have control over when the opposing team will perform better or worse, and if so, then the only think we disagree on is whether your own team performs better or worse as determined by the AI. Personally, I have never, honestly noticed my own team perform worse, but I have noticed the com perform better.
Thanks Amateur. That's a good summary of your perspective. Again, I totally disagree. I think it may seem that your team performs worse, but that it's just an illusion. I hope we both agree that you shouldn't have control over when the opposing team will perform better or worse, and if so, then the only think we disagree on is whether your own team performs better or worse as determined by the AI. Personally, I have never, honestly noticed my own team perform worse, but I have noticed the com perform better.
It's not an illusion, your Team's off-the-ball movement gets slower and more inaccurate when the Momentum is against you. The Momentum is completely dictated by the COM -and- the momentum is directly linked with off-the-ball movement. Therefore the game is "scripted" to a certain extent.
Magic is an Illusion... however, the PES Cheating is NOT an illusion. The evidence is the game itself, there's no need for proof, just take your time and watch the replays -and- watch how the COM pulls all the strings in terms of off-the-ball movement.
With better off-the-ball movement your Team performs better. On the other hand, with worst off-the-ball movement your team will not perform as good as usual. It's a basic principle, off-the-ball movement is essential, without it you cannot play quality football.
So, Konami implemented some Momentum Shifts into the game, the same momentum concept that has been used in PES for many years now. When the momentum is against you -your- opponent will have better off-the-ball movement. Therefore Your Team will perform worse for the time being.
I think the "Illusion" here is that you actually think that the AI doesn't determines if your Team will perform better or worst. That's an illusion, you think you're in control of it when in fact the COM is pulling the strings.
Do you honestly think a Vast majority is under This Illusion you mentioned??
Perhaps you have a point in that it is not cheating, because it affects both sides almost equally, and it provides us with a few strategies to counter against it. However, because we have NO control over it, this makes it "scripted" to a certain extent. And some people consider that to be Cheating.
In real-life many people see different realities... But I don't think that's the case when criticizing a Simulation GAME. There are no different realities in this case, the game is the same product For everyone.
iamcanadianeh
12-06-2009, 21:16
I think that this is an important discussion because we're really talking about some of the nitty gritty of the gameplay and AI. I also think it's good that we are trying to work together to try to summarize these concerns, which to some degree both sides of the argument have. Maybe it will result in some good suggestions we can make for Konami in the future.
I will do some play testing on the weekend with these things in mind and try to be open minded about the issue. One thing I will have to try is using default strategies. I've been thinking that some of the strategies I employ might be making this seem much less of a problem for me than it is for others. For example, I use SBs converted to CBs, manual attack/defense levels, counter attack, and pressure (almost always). If I went to default, maybe I would begin to swear about these things like the rest of you!??!
I think that this is an important discussion because we're really talking about some of the nitty gritty of the gameplay and AI. I also think it's good that we are trying to work together to try to summarize these concerns, which to some degree both sides of the argument have. Maybe it will result in some good suggestions we can make for Konami in the future.
I will do some play testing on the weekend with these things in mind and try to be open minded about the issue. One thing I will have to try is using default strategies. I've been thinking that some of the strategies I employ might be making this seem much less of a problem for me than it is for others. For example, I use SBs converted to CBs, manual attack/defense levels, counter attack, and pressure (almost always). If I went to default, maybe I would begin to swear about these things like the rest of you!??!
No doubt, this was/is a great thread... there are a lot of good suggestions and discussions already. One of the best threads I've seen in all the PES Forums I've visited.
Anyways...
You can use different Strategies depending on the situation -but- How well your players execute your thoughts is entirely dictated by the COM. If the Momentum is Against you and you start applying pressure, your players will not do it right because your off-the-ball movement will be poor for the time being.
The COM doesn't knows how to take advantage of this... But a Human Opponent will spot it very quickly, and will know how to exploit it. The COM dictates the flow of the game, and you have absolutely no say in that, you cannot Manipulate that.
And again, What determines How well each Individual executes your directions?? What determines How Much an individual runs off-the-ball?? And what determines How Well an individual moves off-the-ball?
Nothing! it's all dictated by the COM. There are no Stats for the off-the-ball movements. There are no Stats for Defensive Awareness, or Work Rate, etc, etc.
And consequently, Leo Messi is actually better than Makelele at playing the "Makelele Role". The Tactical Side of the game is treated as a mere casualty, and this results in poor Team Likenesses.
You can use just about any Strategy Successfully with Any Big Team. Chelsea, Barcelona, Inter, Man Utd, AC Milan... it doesn't matter that much. And again, the COM dictates how the Momentum flows.
The 8 Directional Limitations + the COM-Dictated Momentum Shifts... PES always haves a balance between Luck and Skill. Back in PES5 and PES6 this balance seemed to be right... but since going Next Gen, this balance has gone missing in PES. You could even say that Luck overshadows Skill.
Some people are "better" than others because they know how to exploit the flaws better than most players. However, they do not play the game properly.
To put it simply:
* Konami must move on from the D-Pad. The Left Stick will provide more depth to the game, and will lessen the Luck factor.
* Konami should replace the Old "Arrows" concept for a more active one. An arrows concept that changes continuously in-game and affects Individual performances in-game. Therefore dictating the Momentum of the game, whilst at the same time giving us further options and lessening the Luck factor. As Manipulating the Momentum would be yet another skill to master.
* Konami must update their Stats and Special Abilities... the game is in need of New Stats in a couple of areas, the most obvious ones being Tactical Awareness. We should have Stats for Tactical Awareness and Work rate, which are things that we cannot control. So that it is impossible to use Any Strategy Successfully with Any Big Team.
* Konami must Revolutionize Tactical Play... they already did this with the Wii versions. It's time to do the same with the PS3/360 versions.
PES5 and PES6 where well ahead of their Time... But Konami must move on from that, the game needs big improvements. Minor tweaks are no longer satisfactory. Even more so considering this are Next Gen Consoles that are easily capable of better and more challenging games.
The Wii versions are showing innovation in some areas, and yet they still have that old feeling.
iamcanadianeh
13-06-2009, 16:56
Yeah, there are no stats for off the ball movement, defensive awareness, or work rate, and I think that some more stats of that type would be a good idea, but I just wanted to point out that there is response, which determines how quickly a player will respond to your commands, and also helps in them taking better positioning. Also, don't forget agression, which determines to what degree a player will make runs out of their normal position, so that means "off the ball runs" by players with higher agression will be quicker/better. I think you have a point there about Messi being better in DMF because his response and agression are high, so that actually might be where a new stat is needed, which I would think would be work rate, to differentiate between attacking work rate and defending work rate.
Also, there's teamwork, and the teamwork ratings between specific players which determines things like how well two players link up, or when one player will make a run for another player (which is also determined by the playmaker special ability).
I think the only thing to do though is hold tight and for those of you who are extrememly unhappy with the AI in 09, hopefully the fact that in 2010 players will have individual AI based on what type of player they are will make a big difference for 2010.
...Off to play ML, with default tactics, but if I lose I'm resetting it and playing the game the way I normally do ;)
individual AI based
Highly needed. I really want to see this.
iamcanadianeh
15-06-2009, 16:45
^Yeah, that could be the ticket.
BTW - not seeing a major difference when using default tactics (none), though when I switched from Manual attack/defense levels to auto, some strange things began to happen. I conceded about twice as many goals as I normally do, though I still haven't lost this way yet ( 1 draw, 6 wins). I'll need to test more this way, but I think that could be part of why I don't see the problems others are complaining about. Coincidentally, however, I actually found that my own players were making much better off the ball runs when using "recommended" i.e. auto attack/defence levels. It seems like in general that the cpu dictates the momentum much more when you don't have these on manual, but of course that's obviously not the whole issue. I would, however, recommend trying manual attack/defense for anyone who doesn't use it already. I have never liked letting the cpu decide when I want to pressure and when I want to tighten up more.
sweetmusicman
17-06-2009, 16:35
i was losing every match in ML till i got bent on a half season loan. now i cant lose.
its almost like the A.I. has decided i've been humiliated enough now.
lol
I should have read this earlier in the day. You just made my day..lol
iamcanadianeh
17-06-2009, 18:48
lol
I should have read this earlier in the day. You just made my day..lol
Maybe Bent is the difference maker.
"Darrent Bent!!!!"
sweetmusicman
18-06-2009, 16:59
Maybe Bent is the difference maker.
"Darrent Bent!!!!"
Darren the Lucky charm. I never experienced it. My most consecitive defeats were 6 and that was in my very first season. Now I only loss once or twice in a season.
iamcanadianeh
19-06-2009, 18:28
Me too. Undefeated in 20 right now on top player.
Must be The Darren Bent Effect.
in regards to youtube video about the guy who lost 50k, i would like u all to take notice of where the goalie is when his players are in the opposing half............he's damn near his defensive like.........i cant tell u how many times a friend of mine who is of lesser skill has intercepted a pass and blasted from almost the half line over my keepers head and into the goal and when i asked him about the shot he said he didnt direct it so it seems that no matter where u take a shot from it seems to go towards goal even if u dont direct it which can be a pain when ur playing with someone who loves to shoot from distance and have a golie who wants to be a defender
^Same as me. You have to have luck to win.
After playing nothing but 30min games since PES2009 came out i have seen alot of scripted moments and after awhile you get a sense of when they are going to happen. Now i've switched to 15 min games and i find it alot more tolerable now but its still noticable.
I've also played all my become a legend games with 30mins as a DMF. Im the sort of person who likes close low scoring games but some just got ridiculous and sometimes when my team (Mainly ManU) scored the other would have to score within the next 5-10mins no matter how much i went back and helped out the defence. I would go crazy playing a Striker in become a legend mode with 30min games, so many silly goals....
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