View Full Version : Right, Time For Some Real Talk on This Fifa/PES Buisness
Tech__Skill
18-09-2010, 16:23
Good Afternoon PES Gaming boys,
I had to get on here to voice my disgust at some of the downright rubbish and bullshit being spewed about the whole FIFA vs PES craptalk that is going on at present. Obviously opinions are like are like assholes, pretty much everyone has one, but fuck me, there is some A grade bullshit being spoken out there, and it just wouldn't be the same if I didnt stir the shitpot at least one more time for you all.
A few years ago when FIFA 09 came out EA were in a position when they really had a chance to nail the PES coffin once and for all, im serious, they had PES on the fucking ropes badly and the fact that there is even a PES vs FIFA year battle tells you right away that EA have fucked up, they have fucked up BIG TIME. Very simply, EA Had the licenses, the animations, the graphics (not as good as pes's but still good) the broadcast authenticity, the game modes, competent online, the big money and this year, they still have that, but here is what they dont have.
DEPTH.
That 5 letter word you see above is the word that is gonna kill FIFA and why PES is probably gonna take over, possibly as soon as next year. EA sports are not interested in DEPTH, EA sports are interested in GIMMICKS.
Earlier in the year (I can find the post) I said that EA sports would make some attempt at bringing individuality into the game, but I wasnt sure if it would live up tp the hype promised by EA. Enter "Personality +" this is EA talk for "after about 15 years of making football game, the player attributes might actually mean something". Why cant the fuckers just say "look there is going to be increase individuality this year and heres how", why do they have to give everything minor thing a fucking name.
I'm about to go and do a shit as i write this maybe I should start calling it "Colon output plus" or "External Rectal output pro" its just straight ridiculous. "Pro Passing" is EA talk for "every now and again the game makes you misplace and pass and make the player take a 1st touch before doing some incredibly unrealistic pass".
But I tell you what, If these features ACTUALLY fucking worked i'd be alot happier. Lets look at Personality +
PERSONALITY +
Basically, this is how much personality fifa 11 has. I put Amauri in goal, he was doing world class point blank saves, this despite ea making a big fuss over keeper personality.
I was playmaking with Goalkeepers and defenders in midfield, and no matter what the fuck EA say, there is little difference between good defenders and top midfielders in this game. I had cheillini on the wing, the boy had pass completion stats of 11/12 every fucking time. I had Bonucci (CB) as a DM and i was spraying it around like Xavi.
YES, sometimes you can tell there is a small difference between certain players, when you are chelsea, Alex is not as good a passer as Anelka, but the differences between players are not that big, Anelka maybe a better passer than alex, but you can still put alex in anelka's position and make some crazy passes. The point here is, once again, once you discount physical attributes, there is little differences between players.
PRO PASSING
Basically, this means if you play Buffon in AMF, he will take a 1st touch before doing a 180 degree 15 yard throughball. After 30 attempts, he will misplace a pass. 'Shit on toast' is the phrase that comes to mind about this "innovation".
The other 'new' shit in this game I cannot even be assed to talk about at the risk of puking. The reason for that is cos the SAME SHIT THAT WAS FUCKED UP IN FIFA 09 IS STILL FUCKED UP NOW.
The tackling is SHIT PERSONIFIED, this is how you tackle in fifa 11, no timing needed, just hold down the tackle button and iniesta will go on a crazed rampage tramping players down like its the NFL. Seriously, fifa 11, is actually like the NFL in alot of ways, its a bunch of zombies running into each other over and over.
There is no TIMING of the tackle, slide tackles are SHIT. EA tried to say "this year player have different tackling abilities" REALLY??? I had messi at CB and he was like Baresi in there. This is why games of fifa (especially online) are pressure trash, no timing of the tackle needed so everyone runs after each other with endless stamina knocking each other flying off the ball, SIM MY FUCKING ASS.
The dribbling..................... .The shit gives me the creeps, im serious. No jokes, today I had people tell me that you can do Messi like dribbles in fifa 11, in fifa 11 you can dribbling like a spastic, thats about it. The CPU WILL NOT LET YOU GET PAST!!!!! UNLESS YOU USE THE TRICK STICK. I saw some videos of people using Messi in fifa and it was the most ridiculous shit ive ever seen, and people thought this was realistic. Basically, these fuckers had messi doing 360 roulettes to get past defenders and they were real proud about it as if messi does that shit in real life. FIFA is fundamentally unbalanced when it comes to dribbling, the CPU can dribble past you for jokes, you cant dribble past them. What the fuck kind of football game requires you to use tricks to get past a player.
This is one area PES2011 KILLS FIFA11, you can use Messi's superior close control and balance to get past defenders without tricks.
One other thing for now, In fifa, EVERY FUCKING PLAYER HAS THE SAME 1ST TOUCH! EVERYONE, EVEN THE 3RD CHOICE GOALKEEPER HAS THE SAME 1ST TOUCH AS MESSI!
Look.......................... ...........
Ive had enough of this shit, i told myself this is gonna be the last year i play some gay shit where every player is the same, the game is bugged up, the tactics are shit or dont work, defensive lines are through the fucking roof so every game has about 70 1 on 1's. So I played the pes 2011 demo.
PES IS A ROBOTIC PIECE OF SHIT, STILL TO THIS DAY. BUT....................
It's got REAL potential...infact, I prefer it to fifa 11 at the moment.
Its less robotic than last year and I like the passing, its sort of manual but not quite because certain players are better passers than others.
You can feel the difference between players, i just had pedro and villa on left wing, and pedro was SHIT man, seriously, i gotta sort him out, and thats the beauty of PES, cos you dont think like that in fifa, in fifa, i would just sub Pedro with victor valdes, thats how SHIT that game can be at times.
In PES, there is this thing called BALANCE. If your about to take a shot, and i jossle you at the right time, your shot might go flying over the bar, because you had fuck all balance. In fifa this concept doesnt exist, if you had a 200 ton gorilla like drogba jossiling iniesta, iniesta would still do a perfect pass or shot, the jossling ANIMATION is there in fifa, the EFFECTS are not.
In PES if If I tell the defensive line to stay back, they stay back, i dont see em on the fucking halfway line setting the CPU up for another one on one.
In PES, if im 1-0 down with Barca Pique comes up from the back just like in real life to join the attack because im guessing its part of his personality defined by the those fucking pokemon card thingys. Still thats very realistic. In fact PES is very good for replicating the way teams play, in PES you cant play barcelona style football every minute, but you can have your team mimic barca very well, with the defensive lines, pressing, and player movement (although aspects of this need improving)
The REAL pro passing is in PES, in that game passes get misplaced alot more.
Also tackling is better than in fifa demo, when i tried to pressure jossle a player in pes, he went down under the pressure and he got a free kick, cos i unblanced him. So tackles need to be timed in pes.
You have to pay special attention to the TOP PLAYERS, in pes, robben's dribble technique is better than the others, so you cant always steam into him, cos he will use close control and raw technique to turn away or beat you, same as with Messi, Xavi ETC. In Pes you can shield the ball with smaller players against bigger players by doing little sharps turns to around the player to keep the ball away from the them.
The Dribbling is CRAZY, you can turn defenders INSIDE OUT, literally, with the right player, NO TRICKS NEEDED.
Lots of things in PES2011 need changing
The defending in PES is very dodgy and really needs fixing up (CPU through balls are too good and defenders stand still and let passes go by them, that is SHIT)
Player movement is shit, but maybe if I fuck around with the pokemon cards I can get players to make more runs.
And other stuff I cant be assed to go into.
But the point is, the game is actually quite technical, and it doesnt really feel pick up and play to me.
Pes is actually starting to look like the game it once was, the football fans game, where individual players and tactics win games and i really respect that. I think though PES has flaws, it might be going in the right directions, in fact once they make a game that moves as fluidly as fifa, fifa is in REAL TROUBLE.
The problem with this fifa/pes community is FEEDBACK. Some people know how to test a game and know what needs changing, some are good at playing a game, but are shit at feedback and some like Adam from WENB are fucking shit at EVERYTHING. Seriously Whatever that guy touches turns to shit, he ran off to kiss fifa's ass when he joined and started ruining the fifa soccer blog website (basically he sold out) by spreading his usual misinformation and bullshit. Seriously, the people who Konami and EA sports actually listen to are FUCKING CLUELESS.
There is a guy on this forum called 'amateur' the guy is a fucking loon, but why the fuck isnt he on a fucking plane in japan talking to Konami? he fucking knows how to improve football games, same with Shaun7 even, but these guys dont get to go, instead these suck ass cunt pieces go...... and they talk the talk about how they are gonna tell Konami/EA whats up, and then when they get there they are kissing asses, they are Ho's. These bitches need wiping off the face of the earth, im talking about Adam Neaves, Adam from wenb and the rest of the bitches down there, all of them, if Konami fucked those guys off, and started listening to proper feedback, they game would improve at a meteoric rate.
This is part of the reason EA fucked up, they dont actually listen to feedback, they invite a bunch of bum bandits to guildford to play the game and the game ends up like shit yet again, so either the feedback is crap or someone aint listening, either way i think its both.
Basically shut down ALL the other forums and just have Evo Web and Pesgaming, thats where its at, the rest are trash.
Fifa 11 demo is not impressive to me, 3 years on and im seeing the SAME OLD SHIT and personally Im sick of it. I want a game thats gonna last more than 3 fucking weeks and EA Sports arent interested in that, they are interested in making a game for the 5 year olds who wanna do kick ups in the middle of a game and score a 30 yard volley with titus bramble.
Enough is Enough.
FIFA and PES are two different philosophies on football, but this time around, Im gonna have to give pes a little credit for making a game which doesnt insult my intelligence and for making a game which makes me think about which players im using, which teams im using, which tactics im using and why. This is the basis of game with some durability. So yea, credit to konami, they have a way to go yet, but if they can build on this, there is something potentially very good coming along soon.
Peace to all the usuals on pesgaming and HAMMER the feedback forum seriously, its the only way they will sort the game out.
...and Tech's back. :laugh:
The thing is Tech, on most parts, I understand and completely agree with what you're saying, but just do not swear as frequently as it's just not necessary and it makes you out to be some sort of BioShock splicer who's just managed to acquire a keyboard somehow.
Please edit the post and remove the swearing, because I certainly can't be pestered, and I don't want to delete the thread as I happen to think you make some very valid points.
Thanks man.
well thats a handful. not sure many people will read the whole thing.
jay_jay89
18-09-2010, 18:35
i read it all and found it hilarious lol, but also agree with you on nearly every point you make. i think fifa 11 is a disgrace. i played maybe 10 to 15 games on the demo and its just the same thing happening over and over again, same fifa different year. i am enjoying the pes demo, sure it has its flaws but i think its a great starting ground for future games. bring on the full game i say
shankly is god
18-09-2010, 19:01
HAHAHA welcome back TECH oh how I have missed you!!! :/
I have to agree with most of your essay there, how ever I do feel Fifa has made a massive leap from number 10 and it does feel like at times you can play a decent game of footy! I have only managed to play 3 games of pes before getting kicked of the telly by my wife, and im kinda impressed with it with some fluid moves etc! but i gotta give it a better bash when i can!
Shanks
charlie1983
18-09-2010, 19:13
you got tourette's lol?
FutebolArte
18-09-2010, 20:08
wow
lol
Jedimaster1
18-09-2010, 22:39
Pretty good read. Interesting stuff and made me laugh -- "In PES, if im 1-0 down with Barca Pique comes up from the back just like in real life to join the attack because im guessing its part of his personality defined by the those fucking pokemon card thingys." lol!!!:lol:
wallace1231
18-09-2010, 22:51
Haha great post. I don't agree 100%, but still... ^^
The perfect amount of swearing imo!
milenec11
18-09-2010, 23:14
first of all i would like to apologize for my bad english. iam from Greece and i play the most soccer games i can get from the market since pro soccer deluxe. Both konami and ea claims that these are sims soccer games. Ok lets talk about that. The most teams in the world in the last few years plays the 4-2-3-1 system. I download both demos for ps3
and i play a few games, the most tactical game is pes11 cos they have tactics not keeping places like fifa . Yes the keeper is not as good as sould be, but is just a game. Lets see not what game is the best but what game is the less worst. The major bug in pes for me is the fight in the center of the field after the keeper freekick.Always the first guy there wins no matter if its sort or tall.In fifa every team plays like every team, exactly the same.The difference is if your team has messi or not. Iam going to buy both games but only because i am collector and not because i see depth and realism in fifa 2011. Graphics just graphics . Does any one saw at celebrations after a goal that all players has the same height (van der sar and makelele) for that sim we talk about. So well come back konami hope that you stay there .
ps. ( for konami executives Shingo 'Seabass' Takatsuka: do you ever saw a football game to see how a goalkeeper reacts just observe and you will be illuminate.)
James_dean
18-09-2010, 23:20
I do agree with Tech that some people on these boards like Amateur and Shaun7 should be working for Konami. I even think Tech and Shaun7 should be working there with Amateur, they would be a nice working buds in the office in Japan.
I remember few years ago on the forum of Civilization 4 there was a guy who had similar and futuristic views on his favorite game similar to Tech and Amateur, that guy was then hired by Sid Meier to help create Civilization 5.
"External Rectal output pro" --> real highlight!!! hahahahhaha :D
I do agree with Tech that some people on these boards like Amateur and Shaun7 should be working for Konami. I even think Tech and Shaun7 should be working there with Amateur, they would be a nice working buds in the office in Japan.
I remember few years ago on the forum of Civilization 4 there was a guy who had similar and futuristic views on his favorite game similar to Tech and Amateur, that guy was then hired by Sid Meier to help create Civilization 5.
Very interesting point. Although I can't imagine Seabass being eager to work with Tech with his seemingly aggressive language. :lol: We all know swearing occurs mind, and it just shows the passion people really have for the game which is an amazing thing, although the frequency of the swearing is a bit much.
Hey you never know, if you articulate your posts and refine their wording, you may have the off chance of being hired by Konami.
I have to admit to cracking up when you mentioned the Pokemon cards though. :laugh:
Billy Minof
18-09-2010, 23:38
Nice post, straight to the point. :)
Bammers05
18-09-2010, 23:46
Probably the best pes-related post I've read on here in a long time. Some of the swearing's a bit unnecessary, as Hunter said, but, in terms of the actual points you made, I can't find too much to disagree with.
Also, "Colon output plus" :lol:
wipsnadepoo
19-09-2010, 00:35
Good post Tech_skill, well worth the read - I 92.6% agree =)
But at approx 84kg Drogba is anything but a 200 ton gorilla (espn stats), he is light weight for his height buddy.
i agree on almost every point u make.
vietfan09
19-09-2010, 03:26
AGREE WITH U 100000000000000000000000000000 00 %
THIS IS WHAT IAM TALKING ABOUT ! DEPTH AND GIMMICK ARE TWO THINGS THAT FIFA IS BEST CAN DO . !
Seriously , no matter how hard FIFA try , they are still trying to copy the real things into the game , but still doesn't fit at all. Couple new animations each year , gameplay are still **** BIG TIME .
PES as always , REAL FACE , REAL TOUGH MATCH EACH TIME , Despite the fact that they have less licensed , but every thing about PES IS A real Football match.
Real Animations , Real gameplay , everything .
jUVENtUS4LiF3
19-09-2010, 03:33
i have to agree on everything you said fifa is a garbage ARCADE football game it just feels so unrealistic and scripted its all about pressure u can't even hold the ball for a second without getting ran over by a defender i don't see why any REAL football fan would enjoy a game that's goals, passes, etc look and feel so fake. it's literally a copy and paste of fifa 10 with a little more garbage. pes 11 destroys fifa 11 on every level.
Jono3642
19-09-2010, 04:12
what a load of horse dung.
Great Post, TECH!! :D Had a good laugh, cuz its always the fact that you get to laugh at later on..
and i agree with you on all fronts.
The only good fifas IMO
Fifa 1996
Fifa 98
Fifa 99
Fifa 2003
From 04-11 Christ
agree with u 100000000000000000000000000000 00 %
this is what iam talking about ! Depth and gimmick are two things that fifa is best can do . !
Seriously , no matter how hard fifa try , they are still trying to copy the real things into the game , but still doesn't fit at all. Couple new animations each year , gameplay are still **** big time .
Pes as always , real face , real tough match each time , despite the fact that they have less licensed , but every thing about pes is a real football match.
Real animations , real gameplay , everything .
i have to agree on everything you said fifa is a garbage arcade football game it just feels so unrealistic and scripted its all about pressure u can't even hold the ball for a second without getting ran over by a defender i don't see why any real football fan would enjoy a game that's goals, passes, etc look and feel so fake. It's literally a copy and paste of fifa 10 with a little more garbage. Pes 11 destroys fifa 11 on every level.
people with sense:)
Fair play. Although, as I tend to do with most novels, if the first paragraph doesn't grab me, I don't read the rest.
milenec11
19-09-2010, 10:09
I play many games of pes11 demo and i did not manage to find any individual player tactic on the field .Has any or not?
Because if its not than is a step back for the all tactic board. If someone find something please tell me how. Thats is a real issue.
Phatmann
19-09-2010, 10:38
The only good fifas IMO
Fifa 1996
Fifa 98
Fifa 99
Fifa 2003
From 04-11 Christ
Fifa 2003 was one of the worst games I've ever had the misfortune of playing. I actually played it a few months ago to see whether it was as bad as I remembered and it was worse. Absolutely dire.
Tech__Skill
19-09-2010, 11:05
i have to agree on everything you said fifa is a garbage ARCADE football game it just feels so unrealistic and scripted its all about pressure u can't even hold the ball for a second without getting ran over by a defender i don't see why any REAL football fan would enjoy a game that's goals, passes, etc look and feel so fake. it's literally a copy and paste of fifa 10 with a little more garbage. pes 11 destroys fifa 11 on every level.
See, i actually dont agree with you on this one. Look they are two different philosophies on football, fifa is far better when it comes to things like player movement and there are certain things i prefer in fifa like the fact you can tell a player to make a run using one of the side buttons, rather than having to do a 1-2 or hoping he will make the run. The in game atmosphere in FIFA destroys PES right now, so im not saying fifa is a totally shit game with no redeeming features. Fifa 11 seems better than fifa 10.
The point is, that demo is not enough improvement for a years worth of development and whats becoming apparent now, is that EA Sport do not fix core issues, they gloss over the issue with something that creates another issue.
Remember when Fifa got shit for being real easy, back in the day where you could stroll though teams and beat Barcelona about 13-1 if you really tried. EA's response to this kind of rubbish was simply to stop you being able to go past CPU players without tricks, which makes the game less easy, but creates another issues, dribbling becomes void.
Even the Pro passing is a bit dodgy for me, I need to test it more, but rather than being a clever system which reads player pass stats and determines how good they can pass, it does come across to me as what is a called contextual error system where the CPU decides that you need to miss this pass to make the ''pro passing'' apparent.
I could be wrong on that, but sometimes it feels like the CPU is saying, ''right you have made that pass, you can't make this one because we need to even it out a little''
They just have this habit of not resolving the issues at the core, and its stuff they have been told about for Years now, its just unacceptable for me.
The world cup games when it came out was the best game on the market at the time, better than fifa 10, but after 3 weeks the game got samey again, I gave them a pass on this, thinking they would be holding back the real shit for Fifa 11, but i'm just not seeing the improvements that really should be made, the gameplay has hardly moved forward since fifa 09 and you have to realize EA have release 3 football game in a year, fifa 10, world cup and Fifa 11 and the same old issues (other than excessive ping pong) are present in all 3.
The issue is clear, the game is very good on 1st impressions, but it doesn't last, I know people like it right now, I wanna see what they have to say in 4 weeks times. As for PES, totally different style of football, I think anyone playing both demos really needs to give PES some time, its still very rigid compared to fifa and this is one of things that cause people to dismiss it, if you can get past that and see its depth, you might enjoy it.
^I agree with that 100%.
Both games are different. But the thing is that fifa 11 made more emphasis on strength when strength was already badly over rated in fifa 10.
The other thing is the dribbling. As you mentioned. You can't dribble past players unless you use the trick stick, but the cpu can EASILY beat you.
The other thing in defence is that almost every defender defends the same way and tackles are not good as you said. You explained it well.
But overall, it's still a good game. Though it disappointed me highly. Because I expected some stupid issues to be fixed by now and instead, the most irritating issues that were in fifa 10 are still in fifa 11. :(
As for pes. This is the first time in 3 years that the improvements are pretty strong.
It has serious potential. The passing is much better than fifa's on manual because even though you can pass everywhere in pes, the individuality is still greatly felt. For example you cannot pass the same way as xavi, because xavi's accuracy is much better in passing. Same with close control. Players like messi are greatly defined because UNLIKE IN FIFA, you can beat a defender with some small feints and quick turns.
The thing I truly hate in pes at the moment is the cursor selection. Man, it needs fixing. Player runs are also not good enough.
But overall, pes made some serious improvements.
I think that, this is the first time in 3 years that I actually preferred pes to fifa AT THE MOMENT.
I am really sick and tired of fifa's stupid pressure system (where the cpu puts super human pressure on your players) and defending where strength is HUGELY overrated. I cannot stand it anymore.
Football doesn't revolve around strength only.
A football game is won, with teamwork and tactics and both of these aren't made good enough in fifa because every team plays the same.
Well, pes can have a bit more pressure, but the thing I really liked is that smaller teams than your selected team will play more defensive and instead of putting super human pressure like in fifa, they close all the spaces possible LIKE IN REALITY. And you'll still find it difficult to score.
So all in all, both games have issues but both games are good enough.
Tech__Skill
19-09-2010, 13:26
I play many games of pes11 demo and i did not manage to find any individual player tactic on the field .Has any or not?
Because if its not than is a step back for the all tactic board. If someone find something please tell me how. Thats is a real issue.
Actually, this is a very good point, I was thinking the same thing, I was looking for them arrow things which you can use to define a players run. But i think Konami ditched it for them damn cards, what is it the with the japanese and cards, they fucking love the things innit?
I think in the full game you might be able to activate the 'incisive run' card, I think that might be the one that makes players make those kind of movements rather than the arrows.
elliman22
19-09-2010, 14:02
Dude, ur the sh!t. I hear you with everything. I had gone to the dark side and was playing FIFA and really was going to by the fifa 11. But the PES 2011 demo blew away. I mean it can still be tweaked. But compared to the box that is the firld in fifa. I mean, everything is just so congested. When I played the pes Demo I coundn't help but feel like I was really playing football. I might just get both games like my Greek friend milenec11. I am just glad KONAMI has got back to real football..Can anyone tell me where to get the Xbox 369 demo. I played the PC version. I live in Trinidad and Tobago in the caribbean. Look way down close to Venezuela and you'd see my island. Let me know. Send me a link..something..Help..
vietfan09
19-09-2010, 15:44
people with sense:)
what do you mean ?
milenec11
19-09-2010, 15:48
Actually, this is a very good point, I was thinking the same thing, I was looking for them arrow things which you can use to define a players run. But i think Konami ditched it for them damn cards, what is it the with the japanese and cards, they fucking love the things innit?
I think in the full game you might be able to activate the 'incisive run' card, I think that might be the one that makes players make those kind of movements rather than the arrows.
Then my friend we should have the choice to activate or deactivate according the game, those fucking cards. And i see that the release date is to close to hide so many from us. Cross my fingers mate.
I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. One other thing to be aware of is that if you change the tactics and formations it helps with player runs as well IMO.
JohnnieDarko
20-09-2010, 16:03
This is comedy gold :) Valid points too on Personality+.
When EA introduced it in a video, they showed that people would now make mistakes in passing or trapping, based on their particular skill attribute in that area. I mean seriously, isn't that what stats are exclusively supposed to do anyways?
byondthought
20-09-2010, 16:29
The dribbling..................... .The shit gives me the creeps, im serious. No jokes, today I had people tell me that you can do Messi like dribbles in fifa 11, in fifa 11 you can dribbling like a spastic, thats about it. The CPU WILL NOT LET YOU GET PAST!!!!! UNLESS YOU USE THE TRICK STICK. I saw some videos of people using Messi in fifa and it was the most ridiculous shit ive ever seen, and people thought this was realistic. Basically, these fuckers had messi doing 360 roulettes to get past defenders and they were real proud about it as if messi does that shit in real life. FIFA is fundamentally unbalanced when it comes to dribbling, the CPU can dribble past you for jokes, you cant dribble past them. What the fuck kind of football game requires you to use tricks to get past a player.
This is one area PES2011 KILLS FIFA11, you can use Messi's superior close control and balance to get past defenders without tricks.
well u did make a couple of decent points, but me thinks ur not too good at fifa!!!
no tricks!!
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/36991491
oh and its world class level(all videos say Amateur)
Right, this is my first post here. I hate the PES vs FIFA discussion but Tech made some decent points. My friends kept telling me how FIFA11 would blow me away so I finally thought I'd give it a try. Note that my only FIFA experience goes back to around 99 or 2000. Back then Batigoal was still playing with Fiorentina and I thought I'd give him a run for his money. He actually did a bicycle kick from just underneath the crossbar and I thought to myself what the f*ck was that all about.
Back to the future, FIFA11, at first glance the game looks amazing, nice ambience, great commentary, nice graphics and all. So I played for an hour or so. The gameplay's actually good and I was winning as well, on medium difficulty. So I thought lets up the tempo and ended up playing on the so-called legendary mode. I won 2-0 playing Chelsea against Real and that just killed it for me. It was a close game but common I haven't played the game for ages, give me a hammering!!
To be honest, I'd pick that game over PES 2010 any given day but PES2011 will be my drug of choice. I've been playing the demo for about 4 days now and I'm still getting beaten. The challenge is there and some might say that after a few months you'll be able to tear apart the cpu once again. Well, I'll gladly pay the 60$ and a have a go at it.
i actually thought they ruined pes with the "pokemon cards" ,suddenly it felt if you were over 13 you shouldnt be playing it
Stormrider
20-09-2010, 17:52
good stuff I miss reading your posts Tech lol.
Why did "they" ban Tech_Skill??? Has he done anything wrong? Fellow's got the point and suddenly his banned.
Stormrider
20-09-2010, 20:43
Wondering the same thing. Shame really cuz this is the best post I read here in a long time and all the profanity makes it even better :D
Phatmann
20-09-2010, 21:10
It is against the rules to have more than one account. The ban on his original account has been lifted though, so I'm sure he will be back posting here in no time.
Thanks for info Phatmann.
forzamilan84
20-09-2010, 21:18
Great post. You should seriously consider giving your suggestions to Konami. Potential to make a great football game; like you said.
Fifa 2003 was one of the worst games I've ever had the misfortune of playing. I actually played it a few months ago to see whether it was as bad as I remembered and it was worse. Absolutely dire.
Which one was the FIFA you could play indoor? That one was the best. I remember you could kick the ball off your post and it would go to the other side of the field.
Tha boi Skills talks sense... Bring him back.
Seriously, a great thread, what was he banned for?.
Phatmann
20-09-2010, 21:22
@forzamilan84, Fifa 97. I heard the wii version of Fifa this year will have something similar to this with a 5-a-side indoor and outdoor mode. Unfortunately, I can't ever imagine playing a football game with the wii controls.
@shaft85, try reading my post?
1 Thing i noticed when attacking is that the play sometimes seems scripted. Like theres no way i can score if im 2 goals up. Thats weird. I wonder if any other people have noticed this? I did get more than 2 on some ocasions. But i had to try very hard.
welcome back Tech,i have to say i missed you.
really glad you finally see it like this.
honestly, i expected a lot more of the personality plus and pro passing from EA but as you said i couldn't feel it at all.
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 01:39
well u did make a couple of decent points, but me thinks ur not too good at fifa!!!
no tricks!!
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/36991491
oh and its world class level(all videos say Amateur)
First of all, this is the only time you will ever hear me say thank you.......EVER
But thanks to the mods/admins for lifting my ban on my account.
(I feel dirty after saying that, gonna go and have a shower)
1) I am shit at football games period, I used to be good at PES cos i used to HAMMER it for hours. BUT, i know how to TEST/evaluate a football game, there is a difference.
2) Your actually right, you can use skill dribbling which is what it looked like was being used, it was redundant in fifa 10, so i forgot about it uses until yesterday when i stumbled across it.
Having said that the dribbling isnt as good as PES from what I have played, i pulled off one or two skill dribbles with a centre back too, still fair do's
PS. just played against Real Madrid on Fifa 11 with a Centre Back in goal, (cos you know the goalkeepers are meant to have personality which make them better than other keepers right??) he made a double point blank reflex save from Benzema...... thats fifa 11 for you...... personally, the shit i did 1st thing this morning had a little more personality in it, but maybe thats me.
I've heard OPM magazine have given this game 10/10, how in the fuck did they come to that conclusion? Journalism at its downright worst i bet those guys got a free sample of David Rutter's sperm to go with their review copies of the game, fucking el, 10/10????
Fifa 11 is better than fifa 10 imo, (not that difficult to beat fifa 10 and its 70+ bugs and 0 personality and ping pong) but this might be the most OVERRATED game ive seen in years, people are confusing fluid player movement and broadcast realistic visuals with a realistic game of football on the pitch. Fifa is still ASTHETIC, looks fantastic, the players move really nice, great animations, smooth, but for me, on the pitch, its not taking great steps forward, I still dont pay attention to who is on the ball in fifa if im playing with barca as there isnt much difference between the top players anyways. In PES the difference between messi and villa is there, the way they play their game on the pitch is different (the pokemon cards) and they feel different in terms of control.
you are so damn right, you hit exactly the point of these two games and spoke out of my heart.
byondthought
21-09-2010, 14:03
First of all, this is the only time you will ever hear me say thank you.......EVER
But thanks to the mods/admins for lifting my ban on my account.
(I feel dirty after saying that, gonna go and have a shower)
1) I am shit at football games period, I used to be good at PES cos i used to HAMMER it for hours. BUT, i know how to TEST/evaluate a football game, there is a difference.
2) Your actually right, you can use skill dribbling which is what it looked like was being used, it was redundant in fifa 10, so i forgot about it uses until yesterday when i stumbled across it.
Having said that the dribbling isnt as good as PES from what I have played, i pulled off one or two skill dribbles with a centre back too, still fair do's
lol, nope its not skill dribble!! it my new fav feature analog sprint, its what imo makes dribbling better in fifa than PES! there are now 5 different dribble speeds, pace control, normal, low sprint, medium sprint and high sprint, this leaves all the skill of how to take on player(without any skill move what so ever) upto timing and control! its not just an easy thing to do as it is in PES imo..
heres a Walott 1
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37003541
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 14:48
lol, nope its not skill dribble!! it my new fav feature analog sprint, its what imo makes dribbling better in fifa than PES! there are now 5 different dribble speeds, pace control, normal, low sprint, medium sprint and high sprint, this leaves all the skill of how to take on player(without any skill move what so ever) upto timing! its not just and easy thing to do as it is in PES imo..
Lmao.....okay man, i'm happy to play along to a certain point but here's where i'm gonna draw the line, if there is ONE thing PES is better than fifa at right now, its dribbling, i know your getting excited cos you dribbled AROUND one player, and dribbled though one player, but i prefer the dribbling far more in PES. When i use Messi in PES, i dont need to fuck around with the sprint buttons as much, here's the trick i use in pes........... The Stats.
Messi must have better balance than pretty much any player in the demo, sometimes even if the CPU goes flying in with a slide tackle messi can still use his balance to survive the tackle and recover the ball (um.... like he does in real life yea). He also has a noticeably better turning ability to, as does Xavi so... if big ass defenders try and barge you off the ball....all it takes is one deft sharp turn away or turn, im talking STATS and attributes, cos messi and robben dribble differently to busquets and keita yea, thats why I dont need 5 fucking dribble speeds in PES, I just pick the correct player and his stats do the talking.
In fifa the CPU nearly always makes crazy perfectly timed interceptions regardless of who the player doing the tackling is. This is because EA just ramped up the CPU AI tackling ability because years ago Fifa had a reputation for being easy, simple as that.
If you like fifa, like it, i dont give a flying fuck to be honest, it does somethings very well, but fuck me, if you think fifa 11 is acceptable progress then I really dont know what to say to you, play messi in xavi's positions, there is NO difference, play Abidal in CM, he still pings it about for a laugh. To me, thats is NOT realistic football, however nice the players move.
In fifa what happens when you play a CB on the wing instead of Pedro......nothing, they both tactically move the SAME, the only difference ive seen so far, is that pedro is the better passer and dribbler (if its a really good cb, non physical differences are MINIMAL)
In pes, players behave differently regardless of position, because they actually have a pre defined personality, so Abidal does not move around the pitch the same way Dani Alves does when they play the same position, Alves is far more aggressive and reckless. Iniesta plays different to Xavi because xavi holds the centre more and inesta constantly makes breaking late runs into the box. Im not seeing this in fifa, what im seeing as a game that is ASTHETICALLY very nice to watch and to play in aspect, but weak at the core.
So your way of looking at things is actually quite simplistic (im being nice here, to be honest, it was fucking stupid), "its harder in fifa so people dont like it" that's whats being implied here, dont bring that shit to my door again, in PES the stats count when dribbling, if you dribble past several players with messi in PES, its likely because you were using Messi not because you tapped the analogue sprint button a few times, play the PES demo, and see if you make pedro dribble like Messi on a regular basis (im not talking a couple a 10 secs videos), the stats mean Messi will always be better and the personality means messi has better close control.
byondthought
21-09-2010, 15:25
Lmao.....okay man, i'm happy to play along to a certain point but here's where i'm gonna draw the line, if there is ONE thing PES is better than fifa at right now, its dribbling, i know your getting excited cos you dribbled AROUND one player, and dribbled though one player, but i prefer the dribbling far more in PES. When i use Messi in PES, i dont need to fuck around with the sprint buttons as much, here's the trick i use in pes........... The Stats.
How can u even comment on dribbling in fifa when u dont know how to do it and cant do it???:shocking: in PES its a peace of piss to dribble, no skill needed, everything is done for u!! Ive beat 4 people with messi in fifa and that was hard work and it was extremely satisfying. its a new feature it will take time to get used to but it definitely NOT just about beating ONE player! :blush:
I'm not here to change your mind about fifa, u have ur opinion and thats fine, but when u start saying things are impossible and "u cant beat a man without skill moves" you need to be proved wrong! :D
I'm sure u do think dribbling is better PES, its a lot easyer and you said your self your crap at computer football games, so this probably contributes a lot in forming your opinion. :unsure:
For me, I loved PES PS2 so so so so so much, PES5 was the greatest football game, nobody loved that game more than me. when i was backpacking I even used to keep a copy without even having a PS2 on me just in case I came across 1 on my travels! Now its fifa11 for me, its by a small distance the best football ever made(yes I know u don't think so) thats just it, its people like me whos opinions count to make the game recognized as the best, not yours unfortunately. we have opinions on many different things and in the same way mine counted for PES5, it counts for Fifa11, simples! Thats just the way it is! :huh:
I respect you have a different opinion on the 2 games and thats fine, u make some valid points, there will always be ways to bash either game!!
You play yours and i'll play mine! :)
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 15:45
How can u even comment on dribbling in fifa when u dont know how to do it and cant do it???:shocking: in PES its a peace of piss to dribble, no skill needed, everything is done for u!!
I'm sure u do think dribbling is better PES, its a lot easyer and you said your self your crap at computer football games, so this probably contributes a lot along way in forming your opinion. :unsure:
Dude, im really sorry to have to say this but I think you need to squeeze your asshole a little tighter, that way the EA boys wont find it so easy to get in there, they don't even have to lube up, your just bending over with a big fucking grin, ready to shell out more money on a game which is hardly different to the other games. For the last time im going to explain the following to you.
FIFA 11 demo on world class is not difficult, im gonna show you a video of pinging it about with fucking Puyol, Milto, Maxwell, The goalkeeper Pinto and Dani Alves as my midfielders and strikers. LMAO.
WORLD CLASS DIFFICULTY (as you said, ea football world labels all vids as 'amatuer' difficulty)
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165993
Wow, having puyol one touch pass it like that.....thats a REAL sim right, the same sim OPM are giving 10/10.
Here's another video of me clattering players simply holding down the tackle button and look XAVI is playing at centre back and look he is barging what looks like AMAURI off the ball.......just like in real life, man this game is well realistic.
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165540
Do you understand now, its not about ''he likes PES cos PES is easier'' its FUCK ALL to do with that, as iv'e shown above playing barcelona style football in fifa is a JOKE, a 2 year old can do it, I can do it with defenders in the midfield. Where were the stats in that video???? is that personality + plus right?? Please.....
In PES, its about stats, its not about what is easy, Pedro cant dribble like messi, cant move like messi tactically, cant turn like messi. Xavi cant tackle like Nesta, do you understand this, no special skill dribbling needed in pes, the players are DIFFERENT.
MysteryMan
21-09-2010, 15:52
How can u even comment on dribbling in fifa when u dont know how to do it and cant do it???:shocking: in PES its a peace of piss to dribble, no skill needed, everything is done for u!! Ive beat 4 people with messi in fifa and that was hard work and it was extremely satisfying. its a new feature it will take time to get used to but it definitely NOT just about beating ONE player! :blush:
I'm not here to change your mind about fifa, u have ur opinion and thats fine, but when u start saying things are impossible and "u cant beat a man without skill moves" you need to be proved wrong! :D
I'm sure u do think dribbling is better PES, its a lot easyer and you said your self your crap at computer football games, so this probably contributes a lot in forming your opinion. :unsure:
For me, I loved PES PS2 so so so so so much, PES5 was the greatest football game, nobody loved that game more than me. when i was backpacking I even used to keep a copy without even having a PS2 on me just in case I came across 1 on my travels! Now its fifa11 for me, its by a small distance the best football ever made(yes I know u don't think so) thats just it, its people like me whos opinions count to make the game recognized as the best, not yours unfortunately. we have opinions on many different things and in the same way mine counted for PES5, it counts for Fifa11, simples! Thats just the way it is! :huh:
I respect you have a different opinion on the 2 games and thats fine, u make some valid points, there will always be ways to bash either game!!
You play yours and i'll play mine! :)
Actually hes right , the dribbling in PES represents the real world much better, im thinking you don't watch alot of soccer matches from your comment because saying Fifa's dribbling is more realistic compared to the real world is just ridicilous.
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 15:56
Actually hes right , the dribbling in PES represents the real world much better, im thinking you don't watch alot of soccer matches from your comment because saying Fifa's dribbling is more realistic compared to the real world is just ridicilous.
Dude, see my last post.
And what i can do on world class in fifa11 without even trying hard, considering I have a midfield with pinto the goalkeeper, puyol, alves, and G. Milto, abidal is upfront i believe with maxwell, im pinging it about man for a laugh.
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165993
byondthought
21-09-2010, 16:02
Dude, im really sorry to have to say this but I think you need to squeeze your asshole a little tighter, that way the EA boys wont find it so easy to get in there, they don't even have to lube up, your just bending over with a big fucking grin, ready to shell out more money on a game which is hardly different to the other games. For the last time im going to explain the following to you.
FIFA 11 demo on world class is not difficult, im gonna show you a video of pinging it about with fucking Puyol, Milto, Maxwell, The goalkeeper Pinto and Dani Alves as my midfielders and strikers. LMAO.
WORLD CLASS DIFFICULTY (as you said, ea football world labels all vids as 'amatuer' difficulty)
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165993
Wow, having puyol one touch pass it like that.....thats a REAL sim right, the same sim OPM are giving 10/10.
Here's another video of me clattering players simply holding down the tackle button and look XAVI is playing at centre back and look he is barging what looks like AMAURI off the ball.......just like in real life, man this game is well realistic.
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165540
Do you understand now, its not about ''he likes PES cos PES is easier'' its FUCK ALL to do with that, as iv'e shown above playing barcelona style football in fifa is a JOKE, a 2 year old can do it, I can do it with defenders in the midfield. Where were the stats in that video???? is that personality + plus right?? Please.....
In PES, its about stats, its not about what is easy, Pedro cant dribble like messi, cant move like messi tactically, cant turn like messi. Xavi cant tackle like Nesta, do you understand this, no skill dribbling needed in pes, the players are DIFFERENT.
lol, too bad for you your opinion means diddly squat out here in the real world aye!!! Probably cus a lot of it it based on lack of knowledge/understanding!! :erm:
lol, you remind me so much of the old PS2 fifa boys, its funny, when we were praising PES5 they were shunning it!! :rolleyes:
Anyway, only came back on the forum cus when I first played PES2011 I thought it was a decent game, but unfortunately the more I played of both the more a realised it wasn't as close as I first thought!! :no:
Dont really care enough to carry on, so for that reason "i'm out"
Ciao. :cool:
byondthought
21-09-2010, 16:26
Dude, see my last post.
And what i can do on world class in fifa11 without even trying hard, considering I have a midfield with pinto the goalkeeper, puyol, alves, and G. Milto, abidal is upfront i believe with maxwell, im pinging it about man for a laugh.
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/37165993
ok, 1 more thing before I go, that vid got me thinking. Have u ever actually tried that with PES?? changing all the players around etc??
Works for PES too, I just tried it and I really couldnt believe it, if only u could upload replays!! I just scored a great goal, first time shot form Puyol from a great through ball from Valdes, both playing as strikers!! and yes I was passing it around very nicely in midfield with my other defenders!!
man, I really didn't think u could do that with PES, but then again ive never tried! Seriously give it a go, it may not be as bad as when fifa is on full assisted mode(but hey thats what assisted means) but its still really bad!
and now "i'm out" Ciao xx
ps I love that Valdes does back heel passes in PES when he plays upfront lol
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 17:08
ok, 1 more thing before I go, that vid got me thinking. Have u ever actually tried that with PES?? changing all the players around etc??
Works for PES too, I just tried it and I really couldnt believe it, if only u could upload replays!! I just scored a great goal, first time shot form Puyol from a great through ball from Valdes, both playing as strikers!! and yes I was passing it around very nicely in midfield with my other defenders!!
man, I really didn't think u could do that with PES, but then again ive never tried! Seriously give it a go, it may not be as bad as when fifa is on full assisted mode(but hey thats what assisted means) but its still really bad!
and now "i'm out" Ciao xx
ps I love that Valdes does back heel passes in PES when he plays upfront lol
LMAO...........give it up man, i actually had passing on semi, not assisted....did you like the player invdiduality?? did you like my one touch passing with defenders in midfield, OHHH THIS FIFA 11 IS SOOOOO HARD, MUST BE THE REASON I CAN PLAY BARCA FOOTBALL WITH GOALKEEPERS AND DEFENDERS...... its soooo realistic.
And I tried it in PES, here the difference, the defense is APPALLING when you play strikers at the back, thomas muller isnt making double reflex saves in goal, infact he didnt even move when xavi buried it in the bottom corner, the quick passing YES I could do it in flashes, anyhow i took a touch, it was horrible, you see in the PES all players dont have exactly the same 1st touch like they do in fifa, the players dont move around the same way on the field like they do in fifa, so i know if i put a proper right back in on the wing he would do a much better job. Also, i wasnt able to use a centre midfielder like Xavi to easily disposses a target man like amauri, in fifa you can do these things all day long.
Im not saying PES is perfect, fifa does certain things better than PES, but for me dribbling and individuality isnt one of them for the reasons I have posted above.
And your arguement seemed to centre on, the fact im discrediting fifa because I cant play it.....well if I cant play it, and im dominating teams of world class with goalkeepers and defenders in my attack, it doesnt say much about fifa does it.
Pes 2011 is about Stats, Attributes and Tactics and Fifa 11 is not (to be fair, we have yet to test the custom tactics lmao), thats why it lacks depth
DoubleO_88
21-09-2010, 18:52
Tech you are an absolute legend I had to sign up to say that I hope you don't mind that I quoted your post and put it on another forum, always good to spread truth.
I thought I was the only one who hated FIFA's horrible tackling system I come here and find like minded people who are also sick of getting ran over by steam roller defenders actually even Messi can steam roll attackers with the ball, so stupid.
Tech you are an absolute legend I had to sign up to say that I hope you don't mind that I quoted your post and put it on another forum, always good to spread truth.
I thought I was the only one who hated FIFA's horrible tackling system I come here and find like minded people who are also sick of getting ran over by steam roller defenders actually even Messi can steam roll attackers with the ball, so stupid.
That is the number 1 reason I don't like Fifa. It is just way to easy to run through people and win the ball.
Number 2 would have to be that everyone in the demo plays a high defensive line.
epic, this thread is just epic.
we all knew he could talk but i thought i'd never see the day he'd be defending PES.
THE ARGUMENTS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN ARE OUT OF THIS WORLD BECAUSE LETS FACE IT,it is easier defending PES.
LOVING IT TECH,and the fact that your man enough for this,well it won't mean a lot i guess but hats off and you have all my respect.
I am also with those against fifa's overrated pressure system and tackling system. It's just too easy to take the ball.
BTW this is only mentioning the bad side of fifa, because it too like pes has a good side.
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 21:44
I am also with those against fifa's overrated pressure system and tackling system. It's just too easy to take the ball.
BTW this is only mentioning the bad side of fifa, because it too like pes has a good side.
I agree, as an overall package, I can see why fifa is preferred to PES, the issue I have is with.
-EA Releasing 3 games in one year, with each game having few major improvements over the over in my opinion
-EA making promises they cannot keep the player individuality shown in their test bed development video doesn't appeared to have made its way into the final game.
-EA making excuse after excuse for not patching a game with 70+ bugs, some of which were game breaking.
-The media totally overrating Fifa11 based on a few days max of playing it, which is not long enough of a period to give the game a 10/10 score, especially when the game is notorious for not lasting the distance.
-Deluded fans calling Fifa11 the best football game ever, when it's quite clear there are fundamental imbalances in core game aspects such as dribbling, the CPU AI is still not that great from what i've have seen in the demo, player and tactical individuality is still not up to standard, I still dont think the heading abilities of players is up to standard from what I have seen and that's not discounting the possibility of a ton of bugs like last years version.
-People confusing Broadcast realism, with 'on the pitch realism' in other words, fifa is capable of looking like a tv broadcast, but under the hood, i'm yet to be convinced the way it plays is as realistic as some would have you believe. PES does not look as broadcast realistic as fifa, but on the pitch there is a case for it being just as realistic if not more than fifa. I(in terms of player individuality, passing and tactics etc)
-I still think things are a bit repetitive in the final 3rd in recent fifa's, but maybe thats me, I still think in PES2011 there are are more possibilities when it comes to scoring goals.
-EA have yet to show me they are capable of making an engrossing career mode where you can play multiple seasons without gamebreaking bugs, incorrect basics like the weather and without the gameplay getting repeatative.
This is my opinion right now, if EA can change it, I will give them credit, I call it as I see it, and right now, this is how I see it.
DoubleO_88
21-09-2010, 22:47
I agree, as an overall package, I can see why fifa is preferred to PES, the issue I have is with.
-EA Releasing 3 games in one year, with each game having few major improvements over the over in my opinion
-EA making promises they cannot keep the player individuality shown in their test bed development video doesn't appeared to have made its way into the final game.
-EA making excuse after excuse for not patching a game with 70+ bugs, some of which were game breaking.
-The media totally overrating Fifa11 based on a few days max of playing it, which is not long enough of a period to give the game a 10/10 score, especially when the game is notorious for not lasting the distance.
-Deluded fans calling Fifa11 the best football game ever, when it's quite clear there are fundamental imbalances in core game aspects such as dribbling, the CPU AI is still not that great from what i've have seen in the demo, player and tactical individuality is still not up to standard, I still dont think the heading abilities of players is up to standard from what I have seen and that's not discounting the possibility of a ton of bugs like last years version.
-People confusing Broadcast realism, with 'on the pitch realism' in other words, fifa is capable of looking like a tv broadcast, but under the hood, i'm yet to be convinced the way it plays is as realistic as some would have you believe. PES does not look as broadcast realistic as fifa, but on the pitch there is a case for it being just as realistic if not more than fifa. I(in terms of player individuality, passing and tactics etc)
-I still think things are a bit repetitive in the final 3rd in recent fifa's, but maybe thats me, I still think in PES2011 there are are more possibilities when it comes to scoring goals.
-EA have yet to show me they are capable of making an engrossing career mode where you can play multiple seasons without gamebreaking bugs, incorrect basics like the weather and without the gameplay getting repeatative.
This is my opinion right now, if EA can change it, I will give them credit, I call it as I see it, and right now, this is how I see it.
I agree but in a PES vs FIFA perspective there's no point arguing PES being less broken when clearly it is with this horrible bug where defenders don't attack jogging players 1 on 1 now that is much more broken than anything on FIFA but if that does get resolved I will be happily buying PRO this year but if not then call me a FIFA boy because that bug is so off putting right now, after being so pleased with everything else in the game it's so disappointing that has to let it down.
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 22:58
I agree but in a PES vs FIFA perspective there's no point arguing PES being less broken when clearly it is with this horrible bug where defenders don't attack jogging players 1 on 1 now that is much more broken than anything on FIFA but if that does get resolved I will be happily buying PRO this year but if not then call me a FIFA boy because that bug is so off putting right now, after being so pleased with everything else in the game it's so disappointing that has to let it down.
Thats fine, I don't remember saying FIFA 11 is more bugged than PES2011, correct me if I am wrong.... and that bug you mentioned in PES is bad and does need fixing, what I am referring to is this...... Last year David Rutter (fifa top dog) tweeted a few weeks before fifa 10 was released, that it was a bug free game, on release there were over 70 bugs and EA did NOTHING about many of them, it was disgraceful and I cussed the shit outta them on this very forum for that.
Fifa 09 has a bunch of bugs in it as well some of them I believe were still present in fifa 10! In fifa 10, players would literally go missing from your squad cos they had been let go without your permission, if you loaned a player to another club, that club could sell him without your permission, the was a bug which stopped you renewing contracts till the players contract ran out, a bug which put your club a billion or so pounds/euros in debt.......loads of bugs and EA these fucks all disappeared and then re appeared when it was time to sell the next fifa.
Lets see what happens with fifa 11, it wouldn't surprise me if that was bugged up too, seeing as EA have a shit track record when it comes to QA'ing their recent fifa games.
Jedimaster1
21-09-2010, 23:04
Thats fine, I remember saying FIFA 11 is more bugged than PES2011, correct me if I am wrong.... and that bug you mentioned in PES is bad and does need fixing, what I will say is this...... Last year David Rutter (fifa top dog) tweeted a few weeks before fifa 10 was released, that it was a bug free game, on release there were over 70 bugs and EA did NOTHING about many of them, it was disgraceful and I cussed the shit outta them on this very forum for that.
Fifa 09 has a bunch of bugs in it as well some of them I believe were still present in fifa 10! In fifa 10, players would literally go missing from your squad cos they had been let go without your permission, if you loaned a player to another club, that club could sell him without your permission, the was a bug which stopped you renewing contracts till the players contract ran out, a bug which put your club a billion or so pounds/euros in debt.......loads of bugs and EA these fucks all disappeared and then re appeared when it was time to sell the next fifa.
Lets see what happens with fifa 11, it wouldn't surprise me if that was bugged up too, seeing as EA have a shit track record when it comes to QA'ing their recent fifa games.Agreed!
I get frustrated reading reviews which every year call Fifa the perfect game. But after I buy the game and play for a few weeks, I notice every freakin' bug that EA somehow didn't find. Plus the online exploits and patches that fixes one thing, but then breaks another. Classic EA quality control.
PES, even with it's lack of features and presentation, always seems to capture my attention for longer. And this demo seems to me to be a vast improvement over last year's game.
But alas I will get Fifa again and PES. We'll see which is the best in the end, at least for me.
Tech_Skill
21-09-2010, 23:13
Agreed!
I get frustrated reading reviews which every year call Fifa the perfect game. But after I buy the game and play for a few weeks, I notice every freakin' bug that EA somehow didn't find.
This is the thing with the recent fifa games, the reviewers do not play the game enough to find the bugs, so they give it great reviews, then a few weeks later all hell breaks loose. We went through it all with the 'fifa 10 is the best game ever', those reviews were totally discredited when people actually started playing fifa for longer than a week. Their method of reviewing doesn't work, fifa is KNOWN for being very good in the 1st few weeks before the cracks begin to appear. Let's see what happens this year.
When i played the fifa demo, i played/tested from the point of seeing if I thought enough had been done to the game to make me think i could play it offline all year round without getting bored, so far the answer is NO, there just is not enough variation, but maybe the full version will be special.
(Also, the was slight typo in my response to ''double 0-88'', I do NOT remember saying fifa11 is more bugged than pes2011, but i am open to correction on that)
DoubleO_88
22-09-2010, 00:26
This is the thing with the recent fifa games, the reviewers do not play the game enough to find the bugs, so they give it great reviews, then a few weeks later all hell breaks loose. We went through it all with the 'fifa 10 is the best game ever', those reviews were totally discredited when people actually started playing fifa for longer than a week. Their method of reviewing doesn't work, fifa is KNOWN for being very good in the 1st few weeks before the cracks begin to appear. Let's see what happens this year.
When i played the fifa demo, i played/tested from the point of seeing if I thought enough had been done to the game to make me think i could play it offline all year round without getting bored, so far the answer is NO, there just is not enough variation, but maybe the full version will be special.
(Also, the was slight typo in my response to ''double 0-88'', I do NOT remember saying fifa11 is more bugged than pes2011, but i am open to correction on that)
Oh well I guess it seemed like that's what you were implying, but that may be the case anyway because I didn't even know about all those bugs in FIFA as I've not owned a FIFA game since FIFA 99 but I've played enough games on it to know the gameplay sucks compared to old pro's on PS2 but I admit FIFA was much better on the 09 10 installments.
I also hate reviewers. They're way too biased and don't understand how football works. But the biggest flaw of reviewers is that they play it for a few hours and then write a review. That's stupid. With a game you need much more. You need AT LEAST days. Even up to a week.
But anyway FIFA 11 is CLEARLY overrated. I mean 10/10? That's shocking.
If it was 8/10 then yeah it deserves an 8 but not a 10.
But for me, the AI is actually worse than fifa 10. I am not 100% sure about this but it's what I think at the moment.
Reason being that the AI can dribble past you with the greatest ease and you cannot go past them using close control (or it rarely happens), the superhuman pressure in fifa 11 is worse than fifa 10. That said, there are things which aren't fixed from fifa 10 like strength still being an overrated attribute and it's still not fixed in 11 and the attributes clearly don't mean much AGAIN.
That said, it does not deserve a 10.
Same with pes It has issues that aren't so small like the defender tackling for example. IT IS AN AI problem that needs fixing. However, I never expected such an improvement from pes 11.
Tech_Skill
22-09-2010, 09:21
I also hate reviewers. They're way too biased and don't understand how football works. But the biggest flaw of reviewers is that they play it for a few hours and then write a review. That's stupid. With a game you need much more. You need AT LEAST days. Even up to a week.
But anyway FIFA 11 is CLEARLY overrated. I mean 10/10? That's shocking.
If it was 8/10 then yeah it deserves an 8 but not a 10.
But for me, the AI is actually worse than fifa 10. I am not 100% sure about this but it's what I think at the moment.
Reason being that the AI can dribble past you with the greatest ease and you cannot go past them using close control (or it rarely happens), the superhuman pressure in fifa 11 is worse than fifa 10. That said, there are things which aren't fixed from fifa 10 like strength still being an overrated attribute and it's still not fixed in 11 and the attributes clearly don't mean much AGAIN.
That said, it does not deserve a 10.
Same with pes It has issues that aren't so small like the defender tackling for example. IT IS AN AI problem that needs fixing. However, I never expected such an improvement from pes 11.
agreed on a few things there, actually i think the pressure is worse in fifa 10, but here's another thing........
Someone said this on evo web and its actually very true, PES is never gonna beat fifa in the ratings again until it sorts out its presentation and player movement, should Konami focus on these things in the PES2011 or would you prefer them to increase player individuality even more?
I think in terms of game presentation, i think the answer for Konami is to make it customizable, you how on your computer or firefox you can download different themes? do the same for pes, release them as DLC, people would go nutz for that shit, especially if you make them club related, so for instance release a Milan theme, a barca theme etc.
agreed on a few things there, actually i think the pressure is worse in fifa 10, but here's another thing........
I am not 100% sure about that.
Someone said this on evo web and its actually very true, PES is never gonna beat fifa in the ratings again until it sorts out its presentation and player movement, should Konami focus on these things in the PES2011 or would you prefer them to increase player individuality even more?
I think it's true unfortunately. However I find this year's presentation and menus quite good. Actually they're good.
I cannot understand this though.
Everyone is currently saying how great fifa's presentation is but then they overlook certain things.
At least in fifa 10 sicne I haven't play fifa 11 full version.
It was EXTRA SLOOW compared to pes loading times
The menus were slow to navigate and sometimes the button you press doesn't respond in time. In pes 10 (even though i didn't like it's gameplay) the menus were pretty well in terms of loading times and navigation speed.
Even the formations in fifa take too much time to select the proper player.
But with that in mind, pes should focus on gameplay elements first and PLAYER MOVEMENT especially. I think player individuality can take a back seat FOR NOW because there are other issues to solve first.But fluidity (especially in linking animations) and player movements ARE A MUST in the improvements list. Then ofcourse the presentation. For me, it's not that important, but then again, a game needs to have everything including presentation.
I think in terms of game presentation, i think the answer for Konami is to make it customizable, you how on your computer or firefox you can download different themes? do the same for pes, release them as DLC, people would go nutz for that shit, especially if you make them club related, so for instance release a Milan theme, a barca theme etc.
This is actually a great idea. That's awesome as you're showing the fans that you're interested in the game's presentation even more and the fans will be more involved. They could also allow you to make your own wallpaper by having it imported from your ps3. Much like the logos in the kits, but they'll be wallpapers I know I would love this because I am pretty good at photoshop and I really like using it. Not to mention, it's editing aswell and pes is already great at editing.
I think in terms of game presentation, i think the answer for Konami is to make it customizable, you how on your computer or firefox you can download different themes? do the same for pes, release them as DLC, people would go nutz for that shit, especially if you make them club related, so for instance release a Milan theme, a barca theme etc.
Cash-cow EA style?
Tech_Skill
22-09-2010, 19:05
Cash-cow EA style?
DLC can be free, but yes, they could also charge, its a trade off, they are more likely to do it if they can make money off it, but it can be free, or people can create their own and distribute them like option files, there are a few ways it can be done, either way, allowing users to customise core aspects of the game is something that should be looked into for ALL games, not just football games.
Stormrider
22-09-2010, 20:02
Yea I never understood all the hype for Fifa's menus. I can't stand them. They're really slow and hard to navigate. It takes forever to look at a player's stats and when you get there the stats are arranged alphabetically which makes it even longer to determine a player's key stats on top of being really slow to navigate through them all. Maybe it's because EA recognize that their stats mean diddly squat so they try to make it as hard as possible to view so people will just give up and simply play the game.
In any version of Pes it's incredibly quick and simple to check player stats, edit formations and strategies, and the loading is a whole lot quicker. In Fifa, and all EA games for that matter, there's a some form of loading for every little thing you do. Makes me wanna pull my hair out.
[QUOTE=Tech_Skill;1652320]Dude, im really sorry to have to say this but I think you need to squeeze your asshole a little tighter, that way the EA boys wont find it so easy to get in there, they don't even have to lube up, your just bending over with a big fucking grin, ready to shell out more money on a game which is hardly different to the other games. For the last time im going to explain the following to you.
HOLY JAYSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is spaced-out stuff man. Poor fella ( byondthought )only tired to get his point across.
[QUOTE=Tech_Skill;1652320]Dude, im really sorry to have to say this but I think you need to squeeze your asshole a little tighter, that way the EA boys wont find it so easy to get in there, they don't even have to lube up, your just bending over with a big fucking grin, ready to shell out more money on a game which is hardly different to the other games. For the last time im going to explain the following to you.
HOLY JAYSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is spaced-out stuff man. Poor fella ( byondthought )only tired to get his point across.
:w00t yeah i thought i was the only one that thought it was priceless:D:D.
best insult on this site if you ask me pure gold.
123hello
25-09-2010, 16:57
After playing the demo of PES 11, I have come to the conclusion that Konami aren't good enough... I'm sorry, and I understand that this is a PES Gaming website, yet I have to offer some feedback. The dribbling, although you have more control, which is a good thing, it seems soo unrealistic. The defenders, don't defend like they would in real life, they just ball watch and do a rubbish jokey animation. The passing is good, and I like it. Thats the good thing about PES 11. The Crossing animations are really silly aswell. They do this reall, relaxed, 'David Beckham' style cross, even when your sprinting. The shooting is rubbish aswell. They do a really limp and loopy shot. You can barley drive a ball. They also do a silly animation when they shot too, the whole game deosn't seem realistic if im honest. It's an improvement from PES 10, yet I don't think it will be a hit as much. I will probaley end up buying it as I love BAL Mode, yet if Fifa's Career mode is good then BAL will be ineligble. So In conclusion I have been let down by the demo, and I now call myself a officail Fifa player...
James_dean
25-09-2010, 17:16
After playing the demo of PES 11, I have come to the conclusion that Konami aren't good enough... I'm sorry, and I understand that this is a PES Gaming website, yet I have to offer some feedback. The dribbling, although you have more control, which is a good thing, it seems soo unrealistic. The defenders, don't defend like they would in real life, they just ball watch and do a rubbish jokey animation. The passing is good, and I like it. Thats the good thing about PES 11. The Crossing animations are really silly aswell. They do this reall, relaxed, 'David Beckham' style cross, even when your sprinting. The shooting is rubbish aswell. They do a really limp and loopy shot. You can barley drive a ball. They also do a silly animation when they shot too, the whole game deosn't seem realistic if im honest. It's an improvement from PES 10, yet I don't think it will be a hit as much. I will probaley end up buying it as I love BAL Mode, yet if Fifa's Career mode is good then BAL will be ineligble. So In conclusion I have been let down by the demo, and I now call myself a officail Fifa player...
You want a realistic game and you choose Fifa? Are you on drugs?
Fifa appeals to the masses for its simplicity ,theres a template to it ,that has been the same for every single Fifa ,as for it evolving it never has ,it has just added more variation to gameplay
but simply and try this on ANY version of Fifa and you will find it works
4-4-2 formation from CB pass to Leftback ,leftback passes foreward upfeild to left midfeild ,left midfeild passes in feild to nearest centre midfeild ,centre midfeild passes foreward straight upfeild too striker ,the striker plays it back to the centre midfeilder ,the central midfeilder then plays it foreward to the other striker who is goal side with a free shot on goal
then try the same passing move on PES try it with Barca first ,you will maybe get away with 1 in 6 will make it through to the final ball
try it with a team in Copa on the demo you will find the move will break down at least 50% of the time before it gets to the central midfeilder as the pace of the ball even with the new passing system will allow players to get back into posistion
the point i am making is this ,Fifa doesnt mark ,because it doesnt have time too ,simply because EVERY player passes at the same pace and accuracy ,regardless of champions league or lower divisions ,where as PES for all its faults if you match top team v top team then players react quicker to this and will also close you down quicker ,average team v average team ,the players react slower ,but also the passes are slower ,and forces you to change your style of play and maybe even the formation you play from what team you choose
try and say the same about Fifa
I've been playing the pes 2011demo alot vs human opposition recently, and the defence is just not good enough. It's way to easy to pass the ball around and keep possession on offence.
But fifa is a pos, and i never liked how it felt, so that's not an option.
So i guess it's back to editing WE9/PES5 for me again. I did want to like pes 2011, so i could play online, and not have to edit anymore.
Of course there are some better things in 2011, like the graphics and the short passing freedom, but at the end of the day the most important thing to me is a realistic balance between the offence & defence.
Too bad, cause i thought it just might of let me put pes5/WE9 to rest finally, but i guess that was just wishful thinking.
After all, it's been how many years that this game has been the best now ?
ehsancgfx
25-09-2010, 19:38
I've been playing the pes 2011demo alot vs human opposition recently, and the defence is just not good enough. It's way to easy to pass the ball around and keep possession on offence.
But fifa is a pos, and i never liked how it felt, so that's not an option.
So i guess it's back to editing WE9/PES5 for me again. I did want to like pes 2011, so i could play online, and not have to edit anymore.
Of course there are some better things in 2011, like the graphics and the short passing freedom, but at the end of the day the most important thing to me is a realistic balance between the offence & defence.
Too bad, cause i thought it just might of let me put pes5/WE9 to rest finally, but i guess that was just wishful thinking.
After all, it's been how many years that this game has been the best now ?
have you done the mistake i did at first ? the type 2 gamepad setup has different pressure button. so fist make sure your pressure button is what u think it is.
now if you say u cant shoot in pes11 its believable. but u cant defence ? boooh! pes has 4 type of defence and its so much easy to defence like rock solid. the new jokey system of defence let you defend according to the situation. see here .. http://pes2011.com/
Do you guys remember 10 years ago?
You remember playing internation superstar soccer and thinking WOW they are so far ahead of themselves its insane.
We just enjoyed the amazing physics for its time and played it. Too be honest guys. I dont give a rats ass about a stadium editor and i love stadiums. I collect stadium books and am a member of the biggest stadium forum known to man. But i dont care. I want physics. Not just up to date, or infinite movement physics. But amazing physics. Ill take ps2 graphics for amazing physics again. Thats what kept me glood to my seat for 6 hours playing with england in the international cup. The rare ocasions that i won it and the group stages. The qualifying for it. People just dont understand. The shooting, was so fun, the keepers defying gravity. Who cared... the playing experience was so good that nobody really cared. Now they have gone back in the right direction. But its about time. So many games are ahead of their time. Mario 64/ kart, cod4, sonic, pacman and the first few pro evo games. In my opinon pro evo reached its peak way back in pes 5/6. All they seem worried about now is getting the shots to look realistic, whilst taking the fun out of the game. With messi in real life, hes off balance, bang goal. He aims top corner, keeper has to make the save of his life to get it. Now its just so different. I mastered the penalties today, but they need fixing. Corners are not great. Tackling not fun. You should be able to tackle alot harder. Passing is ok. Dribbling is so slow in my opinion. Back in april before we saw the videos i was expecting another shitty game. We dont have that, its good. So fuck it, ill buy it
have you done the mistake i did at first ? the type 2 gamepad setup has different pressure button. so fist make sure your pressure button is what u think it is.
now if you say u cant shoot in pes11 its believable. but u cant defence ? boooh! pes has 4 type of defence and its so much easy to defence like rock solid. the new jokey system of defence let you defend according to the situation. see here .. http://pes2011.com/
I know about all of that. Defending and the defencive ai is not good. You really see when playing vs ppl who are good. Go back and try PES5, and you'll see what i'm talking about.
I think that game must of been to hard for casuals to just pick up and play and have success ( score goals/create chances )
So they went in another direction. It is all about the $$$$ after all, isn't it ?
I know about all of that. Defending and the defencive ai is not good. You really see when playing vs ppl who are good. Go back and try PES5, and you'll see what i'm talking about.
I think that game must of been to hard for casuals to just pick up and play and have success ( score goals/create chances )
So they went in another direction. It is all about the $$$$ after all, isn't it ?
It's always about making money.. it is now and it was back then during the golden age of PES.
Their problem was next-gen programming. They went the wrong direction and lost what felt great about PES which were the physics and gameplay and depth of stats.
PES11 is a good step forward. It's not the same and at this point I feel PES will never be the same as it was. I think if we approach it that way we can give the game a fair shot.
On a side note, what would be a great idea I think would be to do a re-release of PES for PS2 running at 480p widescreen with updated rosters and online play. I would personally pay $39.99 on PSN for this.
It's been so bad, I really think Konami spending time porting the PS2 version on PS3 with updated presentation would be better than PES2008,2009, and 2010 IMHO so far. I will hold my judgement on PES11 until I play it for awhile.
FootballAdikt
26-09-2010, 00:43
It's pretty amusing that there's this feud between FIFA and PES players. Well not all of them, just the really foolish ones that think there can ever really be a definite answer towards the question : WHICH GAME IS BETTER?
It's a video game. Relax. Enjoy it. Be glad you are alive to experience the coming of many minds to put together this incredible football simulation we either call PES or FIFA.
PS : THIS is why we have wars , because theres people out there who truly believe it is worthwhile to argue 'video games'
Tech_Skill
26-09-2010, 00:51
PS : THIS is why we have wars , because theres people out there who truly believe it is worthwhile to argue 'video games'
Wars lol, I thought for a moment you meant actual wars like the one in Iraq and shit....I mean i know im a shit stirrer but I ain't George Bush or anything like that, you mean fifa vs pes right wars right? lol.
FootballAdikt
26-09-2010, 00:57
Wars lol, I thought for a moment you meant actual wars like the one in Iraq and shit....I mean i know im a shit stirrer but I ain't George Bush or anything like that, you mean fifa vs pes right wars right? lol.
No, I meant in general. This is why we have wars. Because there is people out there who take the time to argue about such trivial things as video games. So if people get 'mad' enough to start arguing about two video games , imagine what else they argue about ..... Cereal brand....Cars.....Clothes.... The latest cell phones.
It's just people taking it all for granted. Relax. Enjoy the game.
Tech_Skill
26-09-2010, 01:04
No, I meant in general. This is why we have wars. Because there is people out there who take the time to argue about such trivial things as video games. So if people get 'mad' enough to start arguing about two video games , imagine what else they argue about ..... Cereal brand....Cars.....Clothes.... The latest cell phones.
It's just people taking it all for granted. Relax. Enjoy the game.
That's true, I remember the war in Vietnam, if only the Americans and the Vietcong came to an agreement on whether Coco pops or Corn flakes were better, many lives could have been saved.
Im only messing bro, down here, we like to talk a little shit every now and again, your point is taken, welcome to the forum.
FootballAdikt
26-09-2010, 01:16
That's true, I remember the war in Vietnam, if only the Americans and the Vietcong came to an agreement on whether Coco pops or Corn flakes were better, many lives could have been saved.
Im only messing bro, down here, we like to talk a little shit every now and again, your point is taken, welcome to the forum.
Thanks. Ive been coming here since maybe 2008 . Finally decided to register for the forums after playing the PES 2011 demo. This will be a great year.
Sniper23BG
26-09-2010, 01:58
Well i loved both Fifa and pes every year i used to buy both every year but for the first time since 2003 ive decided that pes wasnt worth my money since 3rd gen consoles came out the game went really bad it didnt have a proper edit mode the gameplay was rubbish u couldnt even shoot properly or dribble since people asked for a slower paced which i hate the gameplay looked like the aliens changed them into robots but fifa improves every year because the gameplay is brilliantly upgraded 360 movement i just wished pes went back to the ps2 era wear it owned fifa by years
Sniper23BG
26-09-2010, 02:15
LOL u should be a comedian i that made me laugh but i do agree with some points though
James_dean
26-09-2010, 04:52
Well i loved both Fifa and pes every year i used to buy both every year but for the first time since 2003 ive decided that pes wasnt worth my money since 3rd gen consoles came out the game went really bad it didnt have a proper edit mode the gameplay was rubbish u couldnt even shoot properly or dribble since people asked for a slower paced which i hate the gameplay looked like the aliens changed them into robots but fifa improves every year because the gameplay is brilliantly upgraded 360 movement i just wished pes went back to the ps2 era wear it owned fifa by years
Oh god. I think the human race is on it´s way down.
Stormrider
26-09-2010, 05:09
On a side note, what would be a great idea I think would be to do a re-release of PES for PS2 running at 480p widescreen with updated rosters and online play. I would personally pay $39.99 on PSN for this.
lol please don't encourage them. PSN classics are no more than $9.99. Charging $40 for Pes 5 in this day and age would be considered robbery, but I'd gladly dish out about $10 for a widescreen Pes 3 or Pes 5.
roblucci
26-09-2010, 15:03
I really respect Tech for his comment.Very brilliant idea.FIFA fanboys still wonder why there are so many people still playing PES even lacking license.
vietfan09
27-09-2010, 14:45
I really respect Tech for his comment.Very brilliant idea.FIFA fanboys still wonder why there are so many people still playing PES even lacking license.
True , And again , with this year PS3 WENB has made a special OF for Ps3 included EPL league logo on the side and Real Logo for EPL league and other leagues as well . Smooth gameplay, Online Master League which is the best of both world , plus it it is KONAMI , you can't get wrong with them .
Sigh Poor FifaFanboys still playing The Gimmick Fifa series ,
Nice post, straight to the point.
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Tech_Skill
27-09-2010, 18:17
To be honest, it all depends what you want from a football game. The games are two different interpretations on how football should be played. I think it's like Fifa is an interpretation of how football LOOKS and PES is an interpretation of how football PLAYS.
I would also say Fifa feels better than PES and this is one of the reasons why some people dismiss PES after a couple of games. This year I would say the game is a little less robotic but i think the passing and gamespeed has alot to do with me liking the demo so far. I put pes 2010 in the other day, that game is SHIT and I stand by that, 100mph ping pong garbage. I play the PES 2011 demo on a speed of -2 and I like that gamespeed and I like aspects of the new passing system also. If you can get past the robotic-ness of pes and can appreciate certain things in it, like the individuality, then its possible to pick up.
If you like the recent fifa series in general I can see why you wouldn't give a lot of time to PES, why would you?? Fifa has the licenses, better presentation, better movement, better animations and if you liked the recent fifa games, you'll probably like the way FIFA11 plays and so will more likely prefer fifa. I peronally started to get annoyed with seeing the same old shit in fifa games and so because PES looked to have made improvements was willing to give PES alot more gametime this year because to me its more playable than pes 2011.
One thing is for sure, to appreciate either, I think you need to sit down with both for a while......im talking a week or so, maybe more, because the way you play football in both these games is very different and I think the way you think about playing these games is different. Coming straight off FIFA11 into PES2011 and playing 1-2 games isnt the way to go imo.
On the reviews front, I don't give a fuck, 10/10 for fifa 11 is not acceptable from the games I have played of it, I know some magazines don't give 10/10 for the perfect game and some give a game 10/10 if its the definitive game in it's genre, but how many readers know this, most just look at the score itself I would say. The shitty tackling system alone is a 2/10 in my book so how the fuck they get 10/10 is beyond me.
One thing is for sure, to appreciate either, I think you need to sit down with both for a while......im talking a week or so, maybe more, because the way you play football in both these games is very different and I think the way you think about playing these games is different. Coming straight off FIFA11 into PES2011 and playing 1-2 games isnt the way to go imo.
This is really true. You just cannot jump from pes to fifa or vice versa and expect to do good in it because both have different interpretations of football.
The thing is, that maybe this year, it's a matter of taste. Where fifa, fails, pes delivers and where pes fails, fifa delivers SORT OF.
Examples are individuality great on pes, but not good enough in fifa
Movement and animation are great on fifa, but not so good in pes.
Anyway overall, NEITHER PES NOR FIFA DESERVES A 9 OR A 10, I think an 8 or 8.5 is acceptable for both.
Both have some issues which needs resolving so a 9 is still a bit high. That's why an 8 or 8.5 will be acceptable.
So when reviewers write a review with a 9.5 or 10 especially for fifa (because it get's higher review scores), I won't even begin to read that review. I mean seriously? Is that professional??
That's why I never trust reviews (although sadly, it does some influence to some).
benny400
27-09-2010, 19:46
Tech- like many have been saying, fair play for your honest argument. I used to think you were just on here to anger people, but you have a lot of truth in your arguments.
For me, this years PES is a big step up. There remains a few glitches here an there, but in terms of the last few PES games this is a large step in the right direction.
one last thing tech. Not only have your neutral and logical comments concerning the PES/fifa debate made you go up in made estimation, but the fact that you have a picture of the legend that is Timothy Dalton in Licence to Kill as your profile picture makes me thnk that you're actually a pretty clever guy. He for me is the best bond, true to fleming, and just a general legend in both his bond films
one last thing tech. Not only have your neutral and logical comments concerning the PES/fifa debate made you go up in made estimation, but the fact that you have a picture of the legend that is Timothy Dalton in Licence to Kill as your profile picture makes me thnk that you're actually a pretty clever guy. He for me is the best bond, true to fleming, and just a general legend in both his bond films
haha i thought i was bodie from the proffesionals
renegade90
27-09-2010, 23:24
I feel people overrate PES' gameplay.
Professional footballs don't kick a ball like they do in PES, its somthing that has annoyed me for ages. Don't get me wrong i like Pro11 and plan too buy it. However the gameplay is far from realistic. Very far infact.
pategato
28-09-2010, 00:24
The demo of FIFA 11 is way inferior in ALL regards to the full game, which I already own. This year's demo is based on a very old build by the looks of it.
That 10/10 score is not too far from what FIFA 11 deserves. Superb game.
Tech Skill arguing the merits of PES over Fifa... if there was ever an indication as to how much PES11 is throwing the cat amongst the pigeons in the fifa community this must surely be it.
I've lurked here long enough to remember several of Tech's fire and brimstone condemnations of PES 10 and wondered about the sanity of a man's increasingly abusive trades with members of a site called PESGaming for, shockingly, supporting their chosen platform of footballing entertainment. Wondered, laughed my arse off, and went about my day. In fairness, he wasn't the only one ...
Still it seems I alongside a proportion of the PESGaming community ("you're our hero Tech!" :lol:) underestimated Mr. Skill. It appears that he's simply a highly emotional chap who expects ALOT from his football gaming experience and who would deny him that? Moderator's aparrently, but now we're all friends again ("I love you tech!") I'd like to add the following to this debate.
I've never bought a Fifa football title since the cluster fuck versions of the 90's. Then satan's spawn (read marketing) decided this next gen thing meant the prettier it looks, the better it is (read "the more money we make") and poor old Konami got all confused. Silly Konami. PES 8, PES 9 and PES10 followed. And no, they were not, by comparison, good. But they were prettier... meanwhile Fifa start to take themselves seriously and developed, by comparison to their previous efforts, a far superior game in Fifa 10.
So... I know there's a fair few of you out there in the community that made the leap from Pro to Fifa last year. This question is for you:
I'm not blind to the faults of Pro's previous efforts but neither am I blind to Fifa's prior tendencies to put style over substance. Don't talk to me about stadia, or commentary (though PES is in dire need of a decent commentary team and script), or licences because it pales into insignifiance in the face of the core mechanics of the game. It's beautiful for a reason...
To someone who is genuinely on the fence, and refuses to shell out the best part of £70 for both, lets indeed have some real talk on this. IGN, OPM, infact most of these so called independent reviewers all have, wait for it, agendas:shocking:. So, step forward those of you who have clocked up some serious hours on both demos and compare and contrast the following.
Ball Physics
Crossing
Passing
Dribbling
Tricks
Shooting
AI both Defensive and Offensive
Refereeing
Tactical Options (I was intrigued by Fifa' introduction of set piece plays but how did this work in practice?)
Anyone willing to give it a go?
nick nack
28-09-2010, 18:27
I have to agree with most of Techs comments.His language makes me laugh tho lol
Tech_Skill
28-09-2010, 19:43
This is gonna piss people off, but fuck it, I LIKE the refeering in PES2011, Im a Serie A watcher so im used to seeing bullshit freekicks being given away for minor contact and I think there is a possibly it might dissuade pressure whores.
Some of the refs in FIFA11 ref under UFC rules, Iv'e clattered a few CPU players in the game and the ref does nothing, my experiences with previous FIFA's amount to the CPU being able to do ju-jitsu style attacks on you and the ref allows it, meanwhile if you brush the CPU with your toenail, its a foul.
I need to play fifa11 demo again, haven't played much of either demo of late, but played alot more PES2011.
but fifa improves every year because the gameplay is brilliantly upgraded 360 movement i just wished pes went back to the ps2 era wear it owned fifa by years
The thing that really annoys me about the FIFA vs PRO debate is the stupid marketing gimmicks that come into it. e.g 360 movement - 360 degree movement has been about since psone days although its just recently that FIFA decided to print it on the box and advertise that it is possible to move the stick through 360 degrees and you don't have to use the d-pad so you can make the player go through 360 degrees but obviously FIFA fanboys never figured out that you could use the stick to move around by 360 degrees before FIFA 10.
Now every review talks a load of garbage about new FIFA gimmicks eg 360 degree movement (you can move the stick 360 degrees, never done that in a football game before)/ Passing+ (the longer you press the pass button the harder the pass, what an mindblowing innovation) / Personality (goalkeepers, midfielders, defenders and strikers have different abilities,who would have thought that would be in any football game) as if they were incredible innovations when in fact its nothing new or innovative and but has been in all football games since psone and n64 where you had a stick that moved 360 degrees and pressing the pass button for longer causes a stronger pass and different types of players had different attributes. What could be next for FIFA 12 how about SuperShot 360 degree control (you have to press the shoot button for longer to make the player strike it harder and you can shoot around 360 degrees) or Sprint control pro (the harder you press the trigger down the faster the player runs), or some other game defining world changing innovation that is actually to borrow a phrase of TECHs a bit of External Rectal output pro.
Such gimmicks distract you from the real pros and cons of the game as if you hadn't read the absurd FIFA marketing gimmicks you would think differently of the game no-one would have noticed 360 degree movement if FIFA hadn't printed it on all the boxes and made sure it appeared in every single review. PES 2010 represented the personality of teams and players much better than FIFA 10 and probably FIFA 11 yet because FIFA is marketing this every reviewer is going to mentions it as if it is a brilliant new innovation when for all you know the code for personalities could be almost identical to FIFA 10.
If you read the reviews for FIFA 10 how many mention the chip shot cheat where you could score with a chip shot every time, or dodgy referees+goalkeepers,or that alot of the players looked like characters from the Bash Street Kids or that you can just bash away at the pass button and the pass always goes perfectly to a free player who always has perfect one touch control and no team even 2nd division ones ever misplace a pass --Answer : none
However the great thing about PES is that it is judged by the gameplay not marketing gimmicks and that is why reviewers give it lower but more honest scores. Konami seem to be listening to customers rather than is the case with FIFA who brainwash customers with a load of nonsensical marketing into believing that because of a few fancy words printed on the back that it is a new innovative game completely different than the one they released a few months back.
Also just typed FIFA 11 glitch into youtube : 1,580 results
not bad for 10/10 game that hasn't been officially released
Tech_Skill
28-09-2010, 23:05
I plan to read the above post soon, however.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJeeAF6G-Y&feature=player_embedded#
Final version of pes 2011.
Looks superspeed, probably the way it was filmed and such and such.......I hope....it better not look that fast on -2 speed.
Pay attention to the in-game atmosphere......
Edit: Here is another one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqgqleHbgCg
Im assuming this is final version, some of the animations suck ass to the bone, look at the 1st eto'o goal in this video, one of the most unrealistic goals ever seen. And the speed has got me worried man, the in game atmosphere with chants added in is crazy, it seems awesome.
unclefredo
29-09-2010, 00:03
However the great thing about PES is that it is judged by the gameplay not marketing gimmicks and that is why reviewers give it lower but more honest scores. Konami seem to be listening to customers rather than is the case with FIFA who brainwash customers with a load of nonsensical marketing into believing that because of a few fancy words printed on the back that it is a new innovative game completely different than the one they released a few months back.
No offence here, I have no favour toward either side but aren't Konami guilty of doing exactly the same? "Engineered for Freedom" ring a bell? The only point is they've improved the passing in PES. I could understand if this was a theme throughout the game but it's not - such as moving the wall, choice of penalty view, allowing players to run on, choosing strictness of the referees - i could go on forever. 360 degree movement? Konami lauded exactly the same this year did they not? They've just implemented it poorly. Point is that Konami used to be about integrity of the gameplay - it's not true anymore. If people on here are honest with themselves, they surely have to realise this. Both games are trying to hook gimmicky slogans onto fairly average games. I do agree with one point tho, EA haven't changed much since WC2010 - but to be fair, that is a decent game. PES2010 isn't.
James_dean
29-09-2010, 00:45
I plan to read the above post soon, however.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJeeAF6G-Y&feature=player_embedded#
Final version of pes 2011.
Looks superspeed, probably the way it was filmed and such and such.......I hope....it better not look that fast on -2 speed.
Pay attention to the in-game atmosphere......
Edit: Here is another one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqgqleHbgCg
Im assuming this is final version, some of the animations suck ass to the bone, look at the 1st eto'o goal in this video, one of the most unrealistic goals ever seen. And the speed has got me worried man, the in game atmosphere with chants added in is crazy, it seems awesome.
You shouldn´t worry about the speed of the full game, it must be the same as in the demo with the option to change it however I´v noticed how many people prefer playing the game at +2. It shows how much the speed option is needed because pleasing millions of people isn´t a simple task.
I noticed in the first video that when crossing the ball into the opp area the defender still backs away, that bug is much more serious than the bug being able to jog down to the corner flag as no one will use it unless playing the game against the AI and having no ambitious at all of playing beautiful football.
You shouldn´t worry about the speed of the full game, it must be the same as in the demo with the option to change it however I´v noticed how many people prefer playing the game at +2. It shows how much the speed option is needed because pleasing millions of people isn´t a simple task.
I noticed in the first video that when crossing the ball into the opp area the defender still backs away, that bug is much more serious than the bug being able to jog down to the corner flag as no one will use it unless playing the game against the AI and having no ambitious at all of playing beautiful football.
whenever there is a choice, in ANY game for it o go slower paced i always choose it
pes 2010 was a decent game when you slowed the gameplay speed down using kitserver
however something ive noticed about the fifa 11 demo is that slow gameplay speed, instead of simply slowing down sprinting, the speed of the ball on the pitch, ANIMATIONS are slowed down, whilst it makes sense for skill moves etc, it doesnt make sense that making a pass up the wing, the player has to "think" about what youve just inputted
it leaves fifa being broken down in the midfield as a glorified game of bumper cars
putting it on fast resolves this issue, springing up the same issue pro evo 2010 had, ferrari speed players bombing down the wing beating everybody then whipping in a 200mph cross
im liking the pro evo 2011 demo, but its far from perfect... something we will all have to keep in mind whilst choosing this year, neither are perfect, but personally i believe Pro evo is a better representation, granted not as good or polished game as fifa
You shouldn´t worry about the speed of the full game, it must be the same as in the demo with the option to change it however I´v noticed how many people prefer playing the game at +2. It shows how much the speed option is needed because pleasing millions of people isn´t a simple task.
I noticed in the first video that when crossing the ball into the opp area the defender still backs away, that bug is much more serious than the bug being able to jog down to the corner flag as no one will use it unless playing the game against the AI and having no ambitious at all of playing beautiful football.
I noticed the defenders backing off on crosses too. My friend scored header goals on me with little ass Villa & Messi, while the much bigger Bayern cb's don't even attack the high balls like they would in real life.
It's not just crosses though, players back off on thru balls too and regular x passes, just letting them go right on by when they could easly been broken up or intercepted.
- Back to editing WE9.
Just to throw a new iron in the fire...
From XBox 360 World head to head review:
Goals: FIFA shooting much improved & easier to score headers, PES shooting weightier, but GK's stay on the line far too often.
Matches: Depth of player individual abilities and natural feeling physics system make FIFA games feel different. PES's has a lack of depth and unconvincing physical confrontations. PES is better paced though.
Career Mode: New career options with both be a GK & a combined Be A Pro & Manager mode option. Same old for PES. No info available on the quality of the online ML yet.
Licences: Major addition of an online creation centre for FIFA. PES counters with a the stadium editor, but still a major lack of leagues to choose from.
Aesthetics: Much improved faces on FIFA, 11 different body types, winter playing gear, three sock heights and more emotions. Best player animations. PES also has new animations, but last years faces are beaten in quality by FIFA 2011's. The ball rolls better in PES though :huh:
FIFA verdict: A man of the match upgrade. 90/100
PES verdict: A more arcade like play and much better than last year. Still a distant second to FIFA. 79/100
Make of that what you will...
Tech_Skill
29-09-2010, 15:08
Matches: Depth of player individual abilities and natural feeling physics system make FIFA games feel different. PES's has a lack of depth ...............
I stopped reading here, honestly, these ''reviewers'' cannot be for real.
If there is ONE thing on earth that PES 2011 looks like having this year, its DEPTH.
And anyone who talks about fifa's player individuality in a favourable comparison to PES 2011 probably needs euthanizing, unless the fifa 11 final version is out of this world, I cant see how such a comparision can be made.
The REAL test is gonna be a few months from now, once people get the intial fifa wow factor outta their colon, will the game last? I looked on evo web the other day and someone who already has the final version said the same thing, to be honest, when I look for a serious review of fifa games, that's the place I go to, i dont fuck with them other bitches.
The REAL test is gonna be a few months from now, once people get the intial fifa wow factor outta their colon, will the game last?
And therein lies the key to the whole matter. The worrying thing is that from a respected member's comments on this site, it looks like FIFA's bells & whistles are all in the correct places.
But as I said, make of it what you will.
Tech_Skill
29-09-2010, 15:23
And therein lies the key to the whole matter. The worrying thing is that from a respected member's comments on this site, it looks like FIFA's bells & whistles are all in the correct places.
But as I said, make of it what you will.
I'm playing the waiting game on this, i'll have a look at some final version videos and see what some of the more sensible people are chatting. I'm not getting suck assed again into wasting another 40 pound on some 3 week shit, for that kinda money I can get a ryanair flight to Ukraine and buy a 6ft blonde woman with Double D tits.
Thanks for the lookout.
iamcanadianeh
29-09-2010, 16:48
The thing that really annoys me about the FIFA vs PRO debate is the stupid marketing gimmicks that come into it. e.g 360 movement - 360 degree movement has been about since psone days although its just recently that FIFA decided to print it on the box and advertise that it is possible to move the stick through 360 degrees and you don't have to use the d-pad so you can make the player go through 360 degrees but obviously FIFA fanboys never figured out that you could use the stick to move around by 360 degrees before FIFA 10.
I have to disagree with this.
The kind of 360 movement introduced in PES 2010 and Fifa 10 is unlike anything that has been in a soccer game previously. Yes, there were games in the past where you could skate around anywhere you want, but the difference is that in this new type of 360 movement you can move anywhere, but only whenever the player touches the ball. These are pretty well known facts, and you can test them out for yourself by playing the games.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that there is a lot of marketting hype, but this was not a case of that. In fact, it's also well known that Konami changed their entire project plan for PES 2010 half way through development (sacrificing Mo cap and animations) in order to implement 360 movement like Fifa was doing. They didn't quite get it right, but it was definitely there in PES 2010. Again, test the game for yourself and you will see the undeniable proof.
So yeah, I think it's a bit much to suggest that Konami did all this work in 2010 to implement something that isn't real or was always there to begin with. :shocking:
Tech_Skill
29-09-2010, 17:14
I have to disagree with this.
The kind of 360 movement introduced in PES 2010 and Fifa 10 is unlike anything that has been in a soccer game previously.
Agreed, This is ISS64 (think its called Perfect Striker in Japan) alot of people consider this 360 movement, to me, its not, the turning animations are quite deceptive, but on closer inspection it looks like 8 way movement to me, 16 way max.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Vyg-0PeIQ
Secondly, I don't believe there is such a thing as 360 degree movement, the Analog controllers on todays machines don't allow you to turn from 1 degree to 2 degrees for example, so the whole concept of 360 degree movement is flawed imo. There is actually no such thing.
^Yeah, that's what i said a few months back about the 360 movement. There's no such thing. It's all tricks with animations.
Matches: Depth of player individual abilities and natural feeling physics system make FIFA games feel different. PES's has a lack of depth
That has to be the most stupid thing ever. I mean seriously???
I hate reviewers like that. Why are they called professionals is beyond me.
That's the one thing pes accels greatly over fifa.
Overall Fifa 11 will be a better product no doubt, but pes 11 made some huge improvements and the gameplay is actually pretty good (not in terms of animations) in terms of players, individuality, tactics, and how it plays overall.
Why is no review mentioning fifa's horrible tackling system?
Or the stupid trick stick that you have to use every time to beat a defender (messi style is completly forgotten in fifa)? Or the FACT that the strength is hugely overrated in fifa where messi gets beaten by defenders easily because he's not as strong as certain players? Or the Refs that favour the AI hugely?
Man, pes 11 does have issues, BUT SO DOES FIFA AND IT'S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE MENTIONES THEM and actually admits that fifa is not flawless and that it hides it's glitches and weak point and blinds certain people with animations, flow and presentation.
Note: I may have sounded as a pes fanboy, but really, both are good games in my opinion, but I don't like these stupid reviews favouring a game without admitting it's faults.
iamcanadianeh
29-09-2010, 18:49
My point is that whether it's 360, or 180, or whatever, what we got with Fifa 10 and PES 2010 was new. No conspiracies here IMO ;)
I noticed the defenders backing off on crosses too. My friend scored header goals on me with little ass Villa & Messi, while the much bigger Bayern cb's don't even attack the high balls like they would in real life.
It's not just crosses though, players back off on thru balls too and regular x passes, just letting them go right on by when they could easly been broken up or intercepted.
- Back to editing WE9.
can you switch to that defender while the ball is in flight? that could resolve the problem. If you could switch and take control of him then you could head the ball and not allow him to move back .
Cristiano92
29-09-2010, 20:19
The "problem" with defenders was on a early www.prorevo.de review.
You need to control the defender much more, to get the ball headed.
A good thing in my opinion, why only press the shoot button and our defender moves to the right place and heads. ;)
PES vs FIFA,
----------------------
Part I, "360 dribbling"
----------------------
I think that, when talking about "360 movement", it is important to acknowledge "360 running" and "360 dribbling" as different and independent areas, which complement each other, but different areas nonetheless.
To call it "360 movement" is too generic and vague, because movement could be running or dribbling, it's not tied to running or dribbling, movement is everything, walking is moving.
As for the idea of 360 movements... I'm going to start by questioning the 360 dribbling that PES and FIFA use: is it 360 dribbling? or 360 running? and how about 360 man-marking?
The 360 "dribbling" that PES and FIFA sell... It's not dribbling, it's running... they are selling an idea of "dribbling" which is in fact an illusion. TRY THE FOLLOWING: stop the movement of the ball, and when stationary, try to direct the left analgue stick...
Does the left analogue stick produces on-the-spot dribbling animations or does it produces moving-from-the-spot running animations?
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA11, and PES5, and PES6, it is impossible to do any stationary dribbling via the left analogue stick, because the left analogue stick always produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS... it does not matters if you are holding or not holding the R1 SPRINT button or the R2 CLOSE CONTROL button: the left analogue stick ALWAYS produces or triggers running animations.
This means, that it is very possible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without ever touching the SPRINT button... because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces running animations.
This is why you can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, PES11, FIFA11, on the same day; and you will find out that the left analogue stick still works identically to how it worked in PES5, the only difference is that there are now more directions to run into.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
I describe the left analogue stick concept, as a uni-polar concept, because there is only one facet to it, one layer to it, one dimension to it: RUNNING ANIMATIONS...
And why is this such a big problem?
It is a big problem because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, the left analogue stick is responsible for running, dribbling, passing, and shooting. And what happens when the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept?
What happens is, that if you direct the left analogue stick mid-way, this will be enough to produce or trigger RUNNING ANIMATIONS... And when you want a subtle passing animation, or a subtle dribbling animation, or a subtle shooting animation, you need to be very precise because the left analogue stick is trigger happy, and will produce RUNNING ANIMATIONS at the slightest of touches.
And the big problem with this, the big limitation, is that the scope of non-running animations that can be implemented into the left analogue stick... is very limited; so limited, that, as a matter of fact, it is impossible to dribble without running because the left analogue stick does not produces on-the-spot dribbling animations, and we only have a handful of passing and shooting animations to choose from.
In other words, if the moving range of the left analogue stick, from the center to as far as it can go in any direction, is of 1 to 10; and out of that range of movement, 3 to 10 produces running animations... this means that you can only implement non-running animations from 1 to 3.
The scope is very limited because the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA1, and PES5, and PES6; if the player had his 1st touch on the ball, and you are not holding nor tapping the SPRINT button, and yet, you are directing the left analogue stick towards the right... What would happen if, I do this in any of the mentioned games?
No, the ball carrier will not pass the ball from his left foot to his right foot, without the necessity of running; no, the ball carrier will not shield the ball with the left side of his body, whilst remaining stationary; instead, directing the left analogue stick towards the right, will produce running animations towards the given direction, and will have the ball carrier running 5 or 10 feet into the given direction.
This is why, slow but technically gifted players like Xavi Hernandez tend to loose the ball too easily, because when they start running, they cannot out-run anyone because they are slow... it is impossible to dribble without running; or to be more accurate, it is straight out impossible to dribble on-the-spot with the left analogue stick.
This is why, Kun Aguero is actually better than Xavi Hernandez at shielding the ball, because Kun Aguero has the pace to RUN away from the opponent, and thus maintain possession of the ball.
And this is why EA Sports invented the right analogue stick gimmicks, this is why such gimmicks exist, to give you the ability of dribbling on-the-spot... to give you a cheap alternative without going through the trouble of actually replacing the outdated concept.
The problem is, that the right analogue stick gimmicks are repetitive and systematic, always producing the same identical animation; the other problem with it, is that it's not very accessible, not intuitive enough... for instance, the thumb that you use when passing the ball or when having a go at goal, is the same thumb that you use when using the right analogue stick dribbling tricks.
On the other hand, if we had all these dribbling animations attached to the left analogue sick, it would be a lot more intuitive and acessible, because your right thumb is ready to measure that pass or that shot.
In other words, EA Sports did not fixed the flaw, EA Sports did not replaced the outdated and flawed concept, EA Sports simply offered an alternative, added a detail which is attached to the right analogue stick; yet the FACT remains, that the left analogue stick is the hearbeat of everything, you do not use the right analogue stick when you pass the ball nor when you shot the ball.
The right analogue stick gimmicks, help hide the flaw, it minimizes the limitations of the uni-polar left analogue stick concept; yet the flaw is still there at the end of the day, because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, and if you minimize the scope of non-running animations which can be attached to the left analogue stick, you minimize everything.
So, 360 dribbling?
I do not think so, Konami and EA Sports have sold you the idea of "dribbling" when in fact you cannot do any dribbling, in truth, it is 360 RUNNING with the brand name "360 dribbling".
Now, what would happen if the uni-polar left analogue stick concept is replaced with a bi-polar concept?
A bi-polar system where,
1st -- it would be impossible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without using the SPRINT button or SPRINT buttons.
2nd -- it would be necesary to kick-start the movement of the ball by tapping one of the two SPRINT buttons (R1 and L1) because the movement of the ball will not automatically kick-start itself.
3rd -- similar to the passing power bar concept, where the left analogue stick determines the direction, and the passing buttons determine the power behind the pass; there would be two different SPRINT buttons, L1 for shorter strides , R1 for longer strides. Thus relieving the left analogue stick from the burdon of determining the distance covered, as well as the direction in which you run.
4th -- there would be a concrete difference between running with the ball and dribbling with the ball, because the left analogue stick will produce different types of animations depending on whether or not you are using the SPRINT button.
5th -- it would be near impossible to dribble past defenders by simply running at them and changing directions, as it would require some build-up dribbling, like in real life, before actually running past the opponent.
A bi-polar concept that would have four different areas attached to the same button,
1st -- running animations: dribbling animations that will move you through the space, animations that will only work when using the SPRINT buttons and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
2nd -- statinary animations: dribbling animations that will only work when stationary or when the ball movement is dead or nearly dead.
3rd -- dribbling animations: the on-the-spot dribbling animations that will be used when not stationary, when moving or running through space with the ball at your feet.
4th -- shielding animations: animations that would function by holding the R2 button and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
So that, if you are not holding nor tapping any of the SPRINT buttons, and you direct the left analogue stick slightly towards the right: this will produce a specific type of on-the-spot dribbling animation. On the other hand, if in the same scenario you direct the left analogue stick as far to the right as it can go: it would produce a slightly different, but noticeably different, on-the-spot dribbling animation.
Can you imagine the scope or amount of non-running dribbling animations that could be implemented into a bi-polar left analogue stick system?
On-the-spot animations, dribbling, man-marking, shielding, tackling, passing, shooting, without the necessity of moving from the space nor moving through space; it would change the whole experience.
In case you are baffled by the "bi-polar" concept that I just tried to explain as best as I could and as briefly as I could. Here is a clearer article which might, perhaps, give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from,
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/5261.html
------------------------------
Part II, the defensive system
------------------------------
Both PES and FIFA revolve around the same uni-polar concept, and this is why, the defensive system in PES is broken and the defensive system in FIFA is also broken.
I think 360 RUNNING is rather unnecessary, I don't want 360 running, I don't see footballers running in circles like a bunch of morons...
Yet with PES and FIFA, you can choose to be a moron, you can decide to run in circles whenever you feel like it, you can break the game whenever you feel like it because there is no structure and no consistency to how the game is played, and this is the reason for why the game is broken...
You see, the defensive system and the one versus one system are different areas of the game, you could have an outdated one versus one system and yet, have a very good defensive system. However, the problem is that a competent defensive system would expose the uni-polar left analogue stick concept for what it is.
Of course, to hide the fact that you cannot actually do any dribbling, they use a broken defensive system...
In real life, before you get past a defender, there is some build-up dribbling before actually running past the defender; in PES and FIFA, it skips the build-up dribbling and goes straight to running... this is why the one versus one system is hugely outdated, because it's PES5 with more directions attached to it.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually playing proper football... because the one versus one system is outdated and the defensive system is broken,
Which means that the ball does not nessecarily dictates the movement of a DMF because the user literally has full manual control over the direction in which the DMF runs, the DMF can always move in accodance to how the user wants him to move, the DMF can always move in accordance to what the user can see from his wide view perpspective... the DMF has a super-human perspective, which enables him with the ability of reacting and moving in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This means that there is no structure to how the game plays, and also, that the movement of the ball does not necessarily dictates the movements of the DMF; but of course, this broken defensive system minimizes the limitations of the outdated left analogue stick concept... because the broken defensive system and the outdated one versus one system, both revolve around RUNNING, and thus creates the illusion of "dribbling" when in fact it is impossible to do any manual on-the-spot dribbling nor any manual on-the-spot defending, you can only RUN with the ball... and this is why the gameplay concept revolves around RUNNING and not around playing proper Football.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually bother playing proper football... because the gameplay concept as a whole, is broken and revolves around RUNNING, and Messi is a fast and skillful player who can consistently RUN his way past 4 defenders and score an easy goal.
If you stop running around like a headless chicken, and if you ever get tired of holding on to the R1 SPRINT button, you might acknowledge just how fruitless the defensive concept is...
Having full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which your DMF runs without the ball... In what way does it enrich the experience? In what way does it requires any skill to hold the R1 SPRINT button and run after the ball like a headless chicken?
It is completely redundant, it creates an illusion of control and responsiveness when in fact it gives you LESS control and LESS substance, and it is the reason for why the game is broken; and obviously, it barely requires any skills, because everything is overwhelmingly obvious and predictable from our wide view perspective.
The full manual control that you have when defending, in terms of the direction in which a defensive midfielder RUNS without the ball, is attached to ONE button: the left analogue stick...
And guess what? You have 9 players on the pitch, the 9 players are attached to ONE button, which renders the defensive system as redundant and 90% automatic and scripted.
This is why Bolton can hold possession like Barcelona FC, and this is why, when it happens, you cannot do anything about it... because the defensive system is broken; when defending, you can only react to circumstances by running after the ball like a headless chicken or by reacting like a human being who has eyes behind his back and can react and move in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This does not gives the user more control, this merely minimizes the limitations of the outdated one versus one system.
The defensive system is currently broken, has always been broken, and will always be broken: it needs to be replaced with a competent system that has more to do with playing football and less to do with running around like a headless chicken.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
---------------------------
Part III, bottom line
---------------------------
So between PES and FIFA,
Both video games revolve around the same outdated concept, with a different feel to it, a different look to it, but the same old concept at the root of it all. it's great to have a bi-polar passing concept where you need to be accuracte in terms of directions and power, but passing is attached to the left analogue stick, and the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
This is why I can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, on the same day, and not notice any difference in how the left analogue stick works and how the game is played; it's the same old concept with more directions attached to it, but just as broken and as predictable as it's ever been.
PES or FIFA?
A matter of opinion, both video games have the same fundamental flaws, which one you like the most is down to your taste; but to say that one is better than the other, I believe it is subjective and far from the truth.
I prefer PES over FIFA for whatever the reason, perhaps due to the player individuality and the L2 Strategies; FIFA is too easy and superficial for my taste.
Man, pes 11 does have issues, BUT SO DOES FIFA AND IT'S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE MENTIONES THEM and actually admits that fifa is not flawless and that it hides it's glitches and weak point and blinds certain people with animations, flow and presentation.
Ironically, the reviewer in questions did say FIFA isn't perfect, but clarified this by saying FIFA's problems are not as noticeable.
Gloss, may be aesthetic, but if it hides the cracks...
Ironically, the reviewer in questions did say FIFA isn't perfect, but clarified this by saying FIFA's problems are not as noticeable.
Gloss, may be aesthetic, but if it hides the cracks...
bastards,but you are right.
starting to doubt wether i should only buy PES this year.
is it really that better compared to the demo?
What's with all these ESSAYS?
Seriously, I just read 9 pages of this 5-star thread and the last thing I wanna see is another 20 paragraph essay by Amateur.. lol. Great passion, but man, my eyes are starting to hurt now.
ANd yeah, those pro-fifa reviewers are on crack or something, probably know nothing about football and just sit all day in their offices playing games, so they judge FIFA and Pro Evo on those standards... Fifa is pretty, yeah, but as a football game, PES has always been the tactically superior, and saying it has no depth is just beyond me. Kinda makes me wanna walk in there and whack the guy upside the head with a copy of PES 11, and make him play it again till he gets it right. Damn shame.
Ironically, the reviewer in questions did say FIFA isn't perfect, but clarified this by saying FIFA's problems are not as noticeable.
Gloss, may be aesthetic, but if it hides the cracks...
Some people can see through cracks though. ;)
And fifa's problems are not as noticeable AT FIRST. Because anyone with eyes can see them well when comparing it to real football. But anyway again, it's his opinion.
But my point still stands. Professional reviewers should be much better than that, seriously.
Tech_Skill
30-09-2010, 18:32
Right, well for the first time in a few years, I will NOT be buying FIFA11 on its UK release date tomorrow. And guess what, Im reading Evo Web and seeing a few posters SLATE the game BAD, and guess what, its the SAME shit I orginally posted in this thread, pressure trash games, one of the shittest tackling systems made in years, Lack of personality and the list goes on also starting to see the first batch of bugs being noticed in the final version, Man its hilarious, seeing comments like ''messi tackles as well as puyol'', you dont need the final version to see that, I was reporting this kind of shit at the beggining on this thread and put vids in here to prove it.
Right, well for the first time in a few years, I will NOT be buying FIFA11 on its UK release date tomorrow. And guess what, Im reading Evo Web and seeing a few posters SLATE the game BAD, and guess what, its the SAME shit I orginally posted in this thread, pressure trash games, one of the shittest tackling systems made in years, Lack of personality and the list goes on also starting to see the first batch of bugs being noticed in the final version, Man its hilarious, seeing comments like ''messi tackles as well as puyol'', you dont need the final version to see that, I was reporting this kind of shit at the beggining on this thread and put vids in here to prove it.
Of course FIFA11 is the same old, adding details to a flawed concept will not actually fix the outdated concept.
Details like the R2 close control, right analogue stick, are just cheap alternative that will never fix what needs to be fixed... which is that the game is in fact broken.
PES: stagnant off-the-ball movement, but as a positive, the tackling system is not as bad as FIFA; as a negative, too easy to hold possession.
FIFA: responsive and more lively off-the-ball movement, more difficult to hold on to possession, but as a negative, the tackling system is bullshit.
PES and FIFA have a different feel and a different look, but the underlying flaw is the same, and the reason for why the mentioned flaws exist is because of that underlying flaw.
The most vocal fans, in my experience, are almost always wrong; they criticize an obvious flaw without actually understanding why the flaw exists... which makes their whole argument redundant and subjective.
I think the whole PES vs FIFA debate is outdated at this point, both games have flaws, both games are "improving" at snail pace, and certainly, FIFA is not better than PES.
If they replace the uni-polar left analogue stick concept with a bi-polar left analogue stick concept: they fix the long standing flaw, change how the game is played... that's innovation, that would be a proper revolution.
That's the bottom line,
The left analogue stick has a range of movement from 1 to 10; running animations are implemented from 2 to 10, and non-running animations (passing, shooting, stationary dribbling, trapping) are implemented into the 1 to 2 range of movement, which means that only a handful of non-running animations can be implemented into the game.
The uni-polar left analogue stick cannot handle more animations, there's no more space, the left analogue stick has a range of movement, and that's it...
This is why we have the right analogue stick dribbling tricks and the R2 close control, so that Konami and EA Sports can continue adding little bits of animations without actually fixing the underlying flaw... cheap alternatives which only serve to hide the flaw but will never actually fix the flaw.
You direct the shot, the pass, the running, the defending, with the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK...
Where the fuck is the RIGHT ANALOGUE STICK when we are directing a pass or aiming a shot?
The right analogue dribbling tricks, it's just a gimmick, a detail. The R2 close control, another detail.
You change how the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK works, you change how the game is played, you take your game to a new level.
Unfortunately, they don't seem keen on replacing the old left analogue stick concept, it's always cheap gimmicks which will not fix what should have been fixed by now.
PES: "engineered for freedom"
FIFA: "player individuality"
DunkTheJunk
30-09-2010, 23:37
Player movement is shit, but maybe if I fuck around with the pokemon cards I can get players to make more runs.
Just hold left bumper when you pass ;) the player passing the ball then makes a run through to attack. But, yeah i basically agree with all of the points you have made.
All the technical shit aside, I find pes more enjoyable than fifa and i have much more fun with pes, theres more excitement when you score a goal as aposed to fifa, and thats what i think is most important, even though the previous versions did have some very frustrating aspects.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 00:45
4 hours on, im still trying to work out what the fuck Amateur is talking about, I kinda see what he's saying about how you can do much with the left stick other than stand still or run (in fifa there is an inbetween slow dribble you can do if you dont push the analouge stick all the to the max) but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided passing and player individuality and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting, or maybe I dont understand at all LMAO.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick, so you press the stick in a direction to mimic the direction of the pass, the longer you pull or push the stick, the more power, let the player attributes have a say in both the power and direction....does that free up the left analogue stick for doing more stuff??? (long passing is easy, assign a shoulder button, and hold it down whilst moving the stick for long pass etc)
muzza798
01-10-2010, 01:19
There is such a lack of variety in fifa I seriously cannot sit there and complete 1 match. I play for about 30 mins (game time) and just say out loud "fuck this". The game is so fucking boring. Everyone is the same, everyone moves the same etc. They 'styles' of play are all the same, when I attack its the same type of attack. I basically can disengage my brain for 10 mins during the game cos it requires absolute zero brain power to play. Its just 1 touch and pass, 1 touch and pass all the way down the pitch.
Pes has sop much variety in dribbling, shooting, senarios...etc
Pes is so supierior to fifa that I don't know y people like fifa for anything other than online. Fifa 09 great game and loved it but 10 and 11 are so dull and lapluster.
Can I just take a few moments to salute Mr 'Tech_Skill' for his comments.
Not only was his first post quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on any forum on the web, but one of the most intelligent. I'm not quite sure if Tech is trying to entertain us all, as well as inform us, but it's working, even if it is just his temper over-boiling. I could read that all s**t all night.
Tech - nice one. ;)
I'm very impressed with the demo so far. Pro Evo's, not Fifa. Not the penalties though.
SEVEN DAYS!
Craney91
01-10-2010, 02:10
The problem with FIFA and in-particular EA Sports is that they try to capitalize on just about everything JUST so it sells more than its competition. This isn’t just FIFA, this is every single game they come out with.
Fair enough from a business point of view, of course you are going to try and capitalize on everything to give you that edge sales-wise. That’s just how the world and money works and that will never change.
But for somebody with half a brain cell who can actually use common sense to pick fault with the game and its developers.....should know these things.
EA I feel wrongly claim simulation, this to me is the biggest fraud of all. If you honestly believe anything EA Sports produce, is true to life, apart from the licenses they get, then I seriously think you need looking at!
EA have a habit of making a game to their taste….Even though they’ll feed you with the same old shit “We look at feedback each year!”
Well is it me? or do they not pay any attention to the constructive criticism from people in the know every single year? Am I missing something? Because I still see the same shitty problems with FIFA 10 that I saw in FIFA 98!
They’ll try and bend the rules of the sport, polish them, give it a fancy name and THEN try and make out it deserves £40. I honestly think EA have made FIFA 09 4 times, 09 (obviously), 10, World Cup and now 11.
Progress for me with EA is slug like, it barely changes each year and apart from the odd add-on here and there, it really doesn’t warrant a new game each year.
The thing I get with EA and especially the majority of its gaming community is that they’ve kind of brainwashed its buyers, so that they think that getting everything done for them in the game (I.E. Pressure, tackling, passing etc) is the way every game should be and if it doesn’t meet those (Automatic) standards then that must mean the game is hopeless.
That’s why many FIFA players will give PES a go and say (The passing’s shit, the shootings shit, it won’t tackle when I hold the button down, I can’t win a header and then instead of thinking about what to say, the same old tripe comes out, THIS IS ARCADE!)
Errrrr, whats FIFA then?
That’s the major difference between PES and FIFA, PES encourages practice, yet gives you the INITIATIVE to want to play it more and more to get to that level you feel comfortable with (addictive). PES isn’t perfect (Nothing is!) but what you do get with Pro Evo is a sense of CONTROL over what you want to do, what you TELL the pad to do. That connection is there with button and ball (More than ever in PES 2011) but the fundamental and system has always been there from day 1!
I’ll be the first to admit, I thought PES 2009 was atrocious (every time you turned 45 degrees, it did a feint) PES 2010 wasn’t brilliant, but it showed improvement, and PES 2011 has improved once again from its younger brother.
That’s what you want to see EACH YEAR, significant improvement!
I find myself with FIFA when you look at it and play it enough, it’s actually surprising just how little control you have over ANYTHING, For instance heres a everyday attack on goal in FIFA:
(You’ll tell the pad to shoot, it won’t, and it will take extra 2 touches and then get tackled because of it.)
Did I want it to do that? Did I tell it to do that? NO…..If I wanted to take a touch, I would’ve told it to….then got the shot of when I told it to.
Yet you know as well as me you will get the usual “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried the demo and full game” JIBBERISH. It’s gotten to the point with EA Sports, I KNOW what to expect before its even been talked about by its Dev’s. Call me mystic meg, but when you play all the sport games it produce’s and see similar problems with all of them, and then the same problems happen again on its next installment. How does that give you the confidence that the next one will sort it out? When they haven’t done fuck all about that same naggy problem for 3 years+ and the same dev’s are there making the new one? Ay?
That’s why I refused to download FIFA 11’s demo, that’s why I won’t be buying it either!
So for all those that want a mainstream automatic gitchfest, fuck of on GLITCH 11,
All those that want a representation of football, play PES.
Craney91
01-10-2010, 02:15
Oh I forgot to mention that 2 button control system on the world cup game.
A control system that existed of only 2 BUTTONS, PASS and SHOOT.
Am I on planet bong?
Night Night everybody ;)
FIORE_FAN
01-10-2010, 08:11
Oh I forgot to mention that 2 button control system on the world cup game.
A control system that existed of only 2 BUTTONS, PASS and SHOOT.
Am I on planet bong?
Night Night everybody ;)
Well.... that 2-button system is pure genius, when my sisters 6 year old son wants to play against me!!!! I even have problems beating him - so that 2-button system is absolutely genius, when your playing against a totally newcomer!!!
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 11:11
That’s why I refused to download FIFA 11’s demo, that’s why I won’t be buying it either!
So for all those that want a mainstream automatic gitchfest, fuck of on GLITCH 11,
All those that want a representation of football, play PES.
Look, at the end of the day, you should have played the fifa 11 demo, its still better than PES2011 in quite a few areas and in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT, this year things might be a little different, but you should have played fifa11 and tested it because there are things in the game like Player movement which still kick PES's ass.
Craney91
01-10-2010, 11:29
Well.... that 2-button system is pure genius, when my sisters 6 year old son wants to play against me!!!! I even have problems beating him - so that 2-button system is absolutely genius, when your playing against a totally newcomer!!!
This is exactly what my point is, although it may benefit a 6 year old, a dad or a granddad, that is purely why it has been put into the game, in hope of gaining more sales by doing so.
There are too many aids and assists with FIFA, like I said it tries to cater for everyone, whilst missing the point of the basics somewhat.
For me a computer game has to be a challenge, not necessarily hard to get to grips with, but a challenge. (So 10 months down the line it’s still got you wanting more…) PES has always had that challenge and skill to be good. Yes down the years it’s had overpowered players just like FIFA has had, but to get the fundamentals and basic things right, it takes time to learn and practice. UNLIKE FIFA, (which I believe anybody can play on and compete after 1 or 2 games using Barca.)
The way I looked at it, was this.... for me to get any joy out of a broken game like FIFA 10….I HAD to go fully manual, that way I knew the mistakes I made, I MADE! Not some shitty A.I.! If I misplaced a pass, it was down to number 1, if I shot wide, it was my fault. But to me it felt like a totally different game within a game when I done this, just solely because error was there and mistakes could happen so it wasn’t automatic at all.
I did enjoy fully manual a lot because it had some reward to how you played, you wasn’t going to curl one in on the volley, top bag from 30 yards out every time, but when you did, you was proud of what you done, not the assist.
What is the point of buying a game?
My idea is that every game should make you want to practice to get good at the game, not with shitty assists and aids, but getting good yourself over time. Look at it like this, a baby can’t run before it can walk.
And THIS is the problem with FIFA; it is running before it can even CRAWL.
For all the criticism Pro Evo gets from FIFA fan boys about it being “arcade….” At least PES progresses (Maybe a little slow at times) each year, in the way that it feels RIGHT, it doesn’t feel out of place, it feels as if it can be built upon.
I mean FIFA 11 (Be a Goalkeeper) how the FUCK have they managed to do that? The goalkeepers are a total shambles now and if they’re not fixed and worked on, just as much as the rest of the aspects of the game, it’s not going to get any better anytime soon. Yet EA Sports are going to give you “control” of this broken, untested mess?
….and then has the nerve to say…."We are 11."
It would be like doing (Be a Goalkeeper) on PES 11, it wouldn’t work because it’s not ready or prepared for it, so instead of putting it in there for the sake of it, Konami will get the goalkeepers right first before even talking about such a thing. So it will feel right when it is there.
But once again EA Sports rush into it to make the £$£.
A total mess, over a total mess.
Craney91
01-10-2010, 11:41
Look, at the end of the day, you should have played the fifa 11 demo, its still better than PES2011 in quite a few areas and in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT, this year things might be a little different, but you should have played fifa11 and tested it because there are things in the game like Player movement which still kick PES's ass.
Why should I associate myself with something I don’t agree with or believe in?
I made that conscience decision about 6 months into FIFA 10, that I wouldn’t be buying FIFA 11. I wouldn’t even accept it, or play it if EA Sports gave it me for free! I wouldn’t even download its demo. I have stuck to that promise, and I still will.
It had my support for a few years, but it hasn’t really gone anywhere other than down.
"in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT"
That’s one of the problems with the FIFA community; they see their opinions as facts. However that’s just the view you have of the game, other people may see different. Yes it might have sold more, and yes it may have gotten better reviews. But that doesn’t mean its BETTER, neither does it mean PES is better either.
You play the one you prefer, if you think it’s better than the other that’s fine, that is your opinion nobody can change that. But it’s not fact.
It will be very very interesting this time next week I think.
Reviews aren't looking amazing so far.............7/10 on Eurogamer and 7/10 on VideoGamer. Looks like its improving but is still not the critics game of choice. Should be up to speed by 2018.............look forward to that:)
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 12:18
Why should I associate myself with something I don’t agree with or believe in?
I made that conscience decision about 6 months into FIFA 10, that I wouldn’t be buying FIFA 11. I wouldn’t even accept it, or play it if EA Sports gave it me for free! I wouldn’t even download its demo. I have stuck to that promise, and I still will.
It had my support for a few years, but it hasn’t really gone anywhere other than down.
"in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT"
That’s one of the problems with the FIFA community; they see their opinions as facts. However that’s just the view you have of the game, other people may see different. Yes it might have sold more, and yes it may have gotten better reviews. But that doesn’t mean its BETTER, neither does it mean PES is better either.
You play the one you prefer, if you think it’s better than the other that’s fine, that is your opinion nobody can change that. But it’s not fact.
It will be very very interesting this time next week I think.
Yeah yeah, but I think you need to PLAY the fucking game also, I dont disagree with alot of what your saying, but PES can learn from Fifa on quite a few things, In game atmosphere, Player movement, animations to name a few. I dont mind people having their own opinions, that fine, but when people start going near the PES is way better than fifa in every way road (as some have done in here), thats when i'll step in.
Despite fifa being a monumental fuck up in certain areas, the reality is, it's still better than PES2011 in a certain areas, If you can't see player movement as at least one of those areas, I don't know what to say really, Pes is still pretty robotic.
When it comes to DEPTH, then we are talking a different ballgame, to me, I see that as PES territory.
FolkertBelt
01-10-2010, 12:30
"in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT"
That’s one of the problems with the FIFA community; they see their opinions as facts. However that’s just the view you have of the game, other people may see different. Yes it might have sold more, and yes it may have gotten better reviews. But that doesn’t mean its BETTER, neither does it mean PES is better either.
Maybe he means that it's a FACT that his opinion is 'that fifa has been the better game'
-=)
Good Afternoon PES Gaming boys,
I had to get on here to voice my disgust at some of the downright rubbish and bullshit being spewed about the whole FIFA vs PES craptalk that is going on at present. Obviously opinions are like are like assholes, pretty much everyone has one, but fuck me, there is some A grade bullshit being spoken out there, and it just wouldn't be the same if I didnt stir the shitpot at least one more time for you all.
A few years ago when FIFA 09 came out EA were in a position when they really had a chance to nail the PES coffin once and for all, im serious, they had PES on the fucking ropes badly and the fact that there is even a PES vs FIFA year battle tells you right away that EA have fucked up, they have fucked up BIG TIME. Very simply, EA Had the licenses, the animations, the graphics (not as good as pes's but still good) the broadcast authenticity, the game modes, competent online, the big money and this year, they still have that, but here is what they dont have.
DEPTH.
That 5 letter word you see above is the word that is gonna kill FIFA and why PES is probably gonna take over, possibly as soon as next year. EA sports are not interested in DEPTH, EA sports are interested in GIMMICKS.
Earlier in the year (I can find the post) I said that EA sports would make some attempt at bringing individuality into the game, but I wasnt sure if it would live up tp the hype promised by EA. Enter "Personality +" this is EA talk for "after about 15 years of making football game, the player attributes might actually mean something". Why cant the fuckers just say "look there is going to be increase individuality this year and heres how", why do they have to give everything minor thing a fucking name.
I'm about to go and do a shit as i write this maybe I should start calling it "Colon output plus" or "External Rectal output pro" its just straight ridiculous. "Pro Passing" is EA talk for "every now and again the game makes you misplace and pass and make the player take a 1st touch before doing some incredibly unrealistic pass".
But I tell you what, If these features ACTUALLY fucking worked i'd be alot happier. Lets look at Personality +
PERSONALITY +
Basically, this is how much personality fifa 11 has. I put Amauri in goal, he was doing world class point blank saves, this despite ea making a big fuss over keeper personality.
I was playmaking with Goalkeepers and defenders in midfield, and no matter what the fuck EA say, there is little difference between good defenders and top midfielders in this game. I had cheillini on the wing, the boy had pass completion stats of 11/12 every fucking time. I had Bonucci (CB) as a DM and i was spraying it around like Xavi.
YES, sometimes you can tell there is a small difference between certain players, when you are chelsea, Alex is not as good a passer as Anelka, but the differences between players are not that big, Anelka maybe a better passer than alex, but you can still put alex in anelka's position and make some crazy passes. The point here is, once again, once you discount physical attributes, there is little differences between players.
PRO PASSING
Basically, this means if you play Buffon in AMF, he will take a 1st touch before doing a 180 degree 15 yard throughball. After 30 attempts, he will misplace a pass. 'Shit on toast' is the phrase that comes to mind about this "innovation".
The other 'new' shit in this game I cannot even be assed to talk about at the risk of puking. The reason for that is cos the SAME SHIT THAT WAS FUCKED UP IN FIFA 09 IS STILL FUCKED UP NOW.
The tackling is SHIT PERSONIFIED, this is how you tackle in fifa 11, no timing needed, just hold down the tackle button and iniesta will go on a crazed rampage tramping players down like its the NFL. Seriously, fifa 11, is actually like the NFL in alot of ways, its a bunch of zombies running into each other over and over.
There is no TIMING of the tackle, slide tackles are SHIT. EA tried to say "this year player have different tackling abilities" REALLY??? I had messi at CB and he was like Baresi in there. This is why games of fifa (especially online) are pressure trash, no timing of the tackle needed so everyone runs after each other with endless stamina knocking each other flying off the ball, SIM MY FUCKING ASS.
The dribbling..................... .The shit gives me the creeps, im serious. No jokes, today I had people tell me that you can do Messi like dribbles in fifa 11, in fifa 11 you can dribbling like a spastic, thats about it. The CPU WILL NOT LET YOU GET PAST!!!!! UNLESS YOU USE THE TRICK STICK. I saw some videos of people using Messi in fifa and it was the most ridiculous shit ive ever seen, and people thought this was realistic. Basically, these fuckers had messi doing 360 roulettes to get past defenders and they were real proud about it as if messi does that shit in real life. FIFA is fundamentally unbalanced when it comes to dribbling, the CPU can dribble past you for jokes, you cant dribble past them. What the fuck kind of football game requires you to use tricks to get past a player.
This is one area PES2011 KILLS FIFA11, you can use Messi's superior close control and balance to get past defenders without tricks.
One other thing for now, In fifa, EVERY FUCKING PLAYER HAS THE SAME 1ST TOUCH! EVERYONE, EVEN THE 3RD CHOICE GOALKEEPER HAS THE SAME 1ST TOUCH AS MESSI!
Look.......................... ...........
Ive had enough of this shit, i told myself this is gonna be the last year i play some gay shit where every player is the same, the game is bugged up, the tactics are shit or dont work, defensive lines are through the fucking roof so every game has about 70 1 on 1's. So I played the pes 2011 demo.
PES IS A ROBOTIC PIECE OF SHIT, STILL TO THIS DAY. BUT....................
It's got REAL potential...infact, I prefer it to fifa 11 at the moment.
Its less robotic than last year and I like the passing, its sort of manual but not quite because certain players are better passers than others.
You can feel the difference between players, i just had pedro and villa on left wing, and pedro was SHIT man, seriously, i gotta sort him out, and thats the beauty of PES, cos you dont think like that in fifa, in fifa, i would just sub Pedro with victor valdes, thats how SHIT that game can be at times.
In PES, there is this thing called BALANCE. If your about to take a shot, and i jossle you at the right time, your shot might go flying over the bar, because you had fuck all balance. In fifa this concept doesnt exist, if you had a 200 ton gorilla like drogba jossiling iniesta, iniesta would still do a perfect pass or shot, the jossling ANIMATION is there in fifa, the EFFECTS are not.
In PES if If I tell the defensive line to stay back, they stay back, i dont see em on the fucking halfway line setting the CPU up for another one on one.
In PES, if im 1-0 down with Barca Pique comes up from the back just like in real life to join the attack because im guessing its part of his personality defined by the those fucking pokemon card thingys. Still thats very realistic. In fact PES is very good for replicating the way teams play, in PES you cant play barcelona style football every minute, but you can have your team mimic barca very well, with the defensive lines, pressing, and player movement (although aspects of this need improving)
The REAL pro passing is in PES, in that game passes get misplaced alot more.
Also tackling is better than in fifa demo, when i tried to pressure jossle a player in pes, he went down under the pressure and he got a free kick, cos i unblanced him. So tackles need to be timed in pes.
You have to pay special attention to the TOP PLAYERS, in pes, robben's dribble technique is better than the others, so you cant always steam into him, cos he will use close control and raw technique to turn away or beat you, same as with Messi, Xavi ETC. In Pes you can shield the ball with smaller players against bigger players by doing little sharps turns to around the player to keep the ball away from the them.
The Dribbling is CRAZY, you can turn defenders INSIDE OUT, literally, with the right player, NO TRICKS NEEDED.
Lots of things in PES2011 need changing
The defending in PES is very dodgy and really needs fixing up (CPU through balls are too good and defenders stand still and let passes go by them, that is SHIT)
Player movement is shit, but maybe if I fuck around with the pokemon cards I can get players to make more runs.
And other stuff I cant be assed to go into.
But the point is, the game is actually quite technical, and it doesnt really feel pick up and play to me.
Pes is actually starting to look like the game it once was, the football fans game, where individual players and tactics win games and i really respect that. I think though PES has flaws, it might be going in the right directions, in fact once they make a game that moves as fluidly as fifa, fifa is in REAL TROUBLE.
The problem with this fifa/pes community is FEEDBACK. Some people know how to test a game and know what needs changing, some are good at playing a game, but are shit at feedback and some like Adam from WENB are fucking shit at EVERYTHING. Seriously Whatever that guy touches turns to shit, he ran off to kiss fifa's ass when he joined and started ruining the fifa soccer blog website (basically he sold out) by spreading his usual misinformation and bullshit. Seriously, the people who Konami and EA sports actually listen to are FUCKING CLUELESS.
There is a guy on this forum called 'amateur' the guy is a fucking loon, but why the fuck isnt he on a fucking plane in japan talking to Konami? he fucking knows how to improve football games, same with Shaun7 even, but these guys dont get to go, instead these suck ass cunt pieces go...... and they talk the talk about how they are gonna tell Konami/EA whats up, and then when they get there they are kissing asses, they are Ho's. These bitches need wiping off the face of the earth, im talking about Adam Neaves, Adam from wenb and the rest of the bitches down there, all of them, if Konami fucked those guys off, and started listening to proper feedback, they game would improve at a meteoric rate.
This is part of the reason EA fucked up, they dont actually listen to feedback, they invite a bunch of bum bandits to guildford to play the game and the game ends up like shit yet again, so either the feedback is crap or someone aint listening, either way i think its both.
Basically shut down ALL the other forums and just have Evo Web and Pesgaming, thats where its at, the rest are trash.
Fifa 11 demo is not impressive to me, 3 years on and im seeing the SAME OLD SHIT and personally Im sick of it. I want a game thats gonna last more than 3 fucking weeks and EA Sports arent interested in that, they are interested in making a game for the 5 year olds who wanna do kick ups in the middle of a game and score a 30 yard volley with titus bramble.
Enough is Enough.
FIFA and PES are two different philosophies on football, but this time around, Im gonna have to give pes a little credit for making a game which doesnt insult my intelligence and for making a game which makes me think about which players im using, which teams im using, which tactics im using and why. This is the basis of game with some durability. So yea, credit to konami, they have a way to go yet, but if they can build on this, there is something potentially very good coming along soon.
Peace to all the usuals on pesgaming and HAMMER the feedback forum seriously, its the only way they will sort the game out.
You are having a laugh mate - how do you know how the full releases are going to play. Fifa is only just out and PES isn't out until next week
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 13:27
You are having a laugh mate - how do you know how the full releases are going to play. Fifa is only just out and PES isn't out until next week
Fuck me, please tell me your not one of these ''you cant judge a game till you have played the final version'' clowns. Whats the fucking point of a demo if you cant form an opinion on how good the game actually is from it?
Infact, I'll go another route, go on evo web the only other half decent site on the net right now, fuckers on there had FIFA11 final version LAST WEEK. Why am I seeing so many of the following complaints, many of them near identical to the ones I made above.
-Pro Passing not that apparent
-Player Individuality missing especially when you are not a top team
-Games are still pressure trash
-Tackling is a joke
-BUGS GALORE ONLINE IN THE FINAL VERSION, how you like this for a bug ' When you play as a team online and go to make a sub, when you make the sub, the CPU replaces your entire starting 11 with the starting 11 of the team you used in the PREVIOUS game.....LMAO.
Are you suggesting I go to the shop right now, and waste my money on this kind of SHIT? tell you what, you give me the money, Ill buy the fucking thing, play it for 5 mins, find out the same old flaws everyone else is finding with it, take it out the xbox, wipe my ass with it, put it in the case, sign the case 'To marcgiu, enjoy, love from Tech_Skill' then post it to you......and then you can play away.
does your boyfriend know you use that language.........
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 13:38
does your boyfriend know you use that language.........
He's fine with it, your mother cant stand it though, still she gets paid at the end so all is forgiven.
He's fine with it, your mother cant stand it though, still she gets paid at the end so all is forgiven.
She is more of a FIFA girl so prob not your type........
She said keep your money so you save up and get out of your parents basement...
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 13:45
She is more of a FIFA girl so prob not your type........
She said keep your money so you save up and get out of your parents basement...
How can you talk to her when she's over here?
She can't even talk right now........ all I can hear is alot of slurping, hold on........
Okay I just had a word, she says dinner is already in the oven, heat it up when your ready, she'll be home later on.
How can you talk to her when she's over here?
She can't even talk right now........ all I can hear is alot of slurping, hold on........
Okay I just had a word, she says dinner is already in the oven, heat it up when your ready, she'll be home later on.
Thats good - I hate cooking on Fridays
BTW the slurping you can hear is your manbitch emptying your ar5ehole ........while he uses his 2 free hands to play with manual controls on Fifa.
Something you should try before spouting your bollocks.........;)
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 14:10
Thats good - I hate cooking on Fridays
BTW the slurping you can hear is your manbitch emptying your ar5ehole ........while he uses his 2 free hands to play with manual controls on Fifa.
If ever there was a case of someone projecting their own homo-erotic fantasies this was it..... do me a favor, when your mother gets home, climb back into her pussy head first and abort yourself in there. With a bit of luck she'll be shitting your remains down the loo by dinnertime tomorrow.
If ever there was a case of someone projecting their own homo-erotic fantasies this was it..... do me a favor, when your mother gets home, climb back into her pussy head first and abort yourself in there. With a bit of luck she'll be shitting your remains down the loo by dinnertime tomorrow.
Nice mate - you have succesfully taken a bit of banter , got wound up and crossed the line.
Go back to watching your Star Trek box set in your pants and pretend - to yourself - that anyone cares about your self indulgent rants about PES.
Go back to watching your Star Trek box set in your pants and pretend - to yourself - that anyone cares about your self indulgent rants about PES.
:lol: Win.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 14:24
Nice mate - you have succesfully taken a bit of banter , got wound up and crossed the line.
What line? I was talking about football, you decided to get personal, fine by me, I love talking about the personal lives of posters on here, next time, be a good boy, stick on topic and don't try and raise the stakes and you'll be fine.
Regarding the original comments you made towards me, all I can say is, when you see 'gamechangers' (people who meet EA to test early builds and give ideas) slating the final version, for many of the reasons I have already touched upon in this thread and then go onto the fifa forum to see a shit loads of bug reports, I think ive made a sensible decision by NOT buying the game on release.
Kevthedrummer
01-10-2010, 14:30
Right, I am in the possession of FIFA... and I have to say that for the first time in years, I actually found PES (demo) a much more enjoyable game playing experience. I also never thought I would say that I prefer PES's passing system, but I really do... There's something fundamentally wrong with the weight and power of passes in this years' FIFA, they seem to fall short and trickle quite slowly even though the full power gage is used. Most passes get cut out by the opposition. They have also completely stamped out dribbling, which is shit quite frankly. I mean I'm glad they made it harder, but this is another element where PES is better.
PES lets you play the beautiful game... FIFA forces you to play frantic ping-pong heartless and relentless football. It feels crammed.
I know PES isn't perfect, but to me, it does what I want, and you can dictate the game in the manner you wish from slow build up to fast passes zipping around.
Since you can trade FIFA 10 for FIFA 11 and only pay £8 (at Asda) I might as well get both FIFA and PES in case one doesn't last the test of time, but for now, PES is the one for me.
What line? I was talking about football, you decided to get personal, fine by me, I love talking about the personal lives of posters on here, next time, be a good boy, stick on topic and don't try and raise the stakes and you'll be fine.
Regarding the original comments you made towards me, all I can say is, when you see 'gamechangers' (people who meet EA to test early builds and give ideas) slating the final version, for many of the reasons I have already touched upon in this thread and then go onto the fifa forum to see a shit loads of bug reports, I think ive made a sensible decision by NOT buying the game on release.
Think that you have made yourself look silly enough now mate - laters.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 14:42
Think that you have made yourself look silly enough now mate - laters.
Lmao, what a fucking crybaby, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the abortion comment, has your mother really had an abortion or something? Did she wanna abort you and then she missed her appointment at the clinic?
As for FIFA, who's opinion do I take into account? the gamechangers who played the test builds and had the final version before release or some nobody (YOU) yapping on about licking out assess whilst playing fifa on manual......
If that's how you play fifa, i suggest you put the controller down and go get an AIDS test.
Now run along, the grown ups are talking.
Lmao, what a fucking crybaby, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the abortion comment, has your mother really had an abortion or something? Did she wanna abort you and then she missed her appointment at the clinic?
you still going......................has n't your bus arrived yet?
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 15:00
you still going......................has n't your bus arrived yet?
I thought you said Laters, now your back....what's it gonna be, you gonna man it out in here, or run off with your knickers down your ankles like before. LMAO.
Who's opinion is more relevant.... Let See.
Your biggest contribution to the fifa vs pes debate so far has been....
"manbitch emptying your ar5ehole ........while he uses his 2 free hands to play with manual controls on Fifa.
Something you should try"
Now, I think you've got a football gaming site where we discuss football games, mixed up with a Homoxsexual chat line/forum, (maybe its called PES-GAY-IM-IN.COM or summin, just a guess) which is why you started making those kind of suggestions to me.
Now....my arguement is the following....
I'm seeing so many of the following complaints, many of them near identical to the ones I made above.
-Pro Passing not that apparent
-Player Individuality missing especially when you are not a top team
-Games are still pressure trash
-Tackling is a joke
-BUGS GALORE ONLINE IN THE FINAL VERSION, how you like this for a bug ' When you play as a team online and go to make a sub, when you make the sub, the CPU replaces your entire starting 11 with the starting 11 of the team you used in the PREVIOUS game.....LMAO.
Therefore, i'm struggling to see why I should take YOUR opinion, which seems to be based on your experiences as a teenage rent boy playing fifa with your Pimp VS the opinion of People who have had the final version of fifa since last week.
Cheers.
My point was this
"You are having a laugh mate - how do you know how the full releases are going to play. Fifa is only just out and PES isn't out until next week"
Also if you can't tell the difference between a bit of banter about boyfriends/ Mums (school yard stuff) and Abortions/ Aids than I feel sorry for you........You can't be right.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 15:35
My point was this
"You are having a laugh mate - how do you know how the full releases are going to play. Fifa is only just out and PES isn't out until next week"
1) Demos-are-there-for-a-reason. You play them, then you decide how likely you are to like the game and then you decide whether you would like to buy the game, based on these and other decisions you have made during the decision process.
If you are suggesting I forget all the shit I saw in the demo, and buy the full game in the hope that the final version is going to be a revelation, then I would say, thats stupid, Infact no, I would say your a moron.....Infact No, I woudn't say that cos I wouldnt be surprised you said that, cos I already know you are a moron.
2) If I have to repeat this one more time, i'm going to have to break down to you in the style of 'spot the dog goes for a walk' in the hope that what's left of your brain matter can grasp this concept.
I've seen players who have the full game and have had the full game since last week make near identical criticisms to the ones I originally made, Infact, look at what 'Kevthedrummer' on this forum just posted a few mins ago regarding the final version, he said....
"hey have also completely stamped out dribbling, which is shit quite frankly"
Now read my post from LAST WEEK where I say pretty much the same thing, AKA I dont need to waste money on the final version to find out the dribbling is still not good enough.
Do you understand now, I can't be way off the mark if some of the fuckers who have the full game are seeing the same issues in the final version, that I saw in the demo. Also, go on the fifa forums, and check out the people on there complaining about how Online is broken, and How career mode has hardly changed since FIFA10 and look at the bugs people are complaining about, horrific bugs like this where players disappear at the beginning of the game
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/39001659
You dont have to buy the final version to realise there is some fucked up shit going on in fifa11.
Also if you can't tell the difference between a bit of banter about boyfriends/ Mums (school yard stuff) and Abortions/ Aids than I feel sorry for you........You can't be right.
You= Crybaby-pussyhole.
If you start some personal shit, finish it, dont decide you cant handle it then start heading for the exit.
Got FIFA yesterday, for me its the first game to surpass PES 5, I know it has its flaws and has problems online(I only play CM and offline multiplayer) but all manual fifa is truly stunning in gameplay terms although it can be the most infuriating game ever. CPU AI is still abit generic but I can effect this with custom tactics. The shooting is immense and you can aim anywhere and put topspin on the ball or hit straight trajectory depending on how you move the analog. I can't wait for PES 2011 and it will offer me things that fifa cannot, I just feel PES still has too much of an assisted aspect whereas fifa mixes stats with user input brilliantly. I know more flaws will become apparent the more I play but its a fantastic game can't wait to see what pes has to offer. Finally FIFA also has attention to detail for the first time, fifa 10 felt stale quite quickly although it was a great game.
1) Demos-are-there-for-a-reason. You play them, then you decide how likely you are to like the game and then you decide whether you would like to buy the game, based on these and other decisions you have made during the decision process.
If you are suggesting I forget all the shit I saw in the demo, and buy the full game in the hope that the final version is going to be a revelation, then I would say, thats stupid, Infact no, I would say your a moron.....Infact No, I woudn't say that cos I wouldnt be surprised you said that, cos I already know you are a moron.
2) If I have to repeat this one more time, i'm going to have to break down to you in the style of 'spot the dog goes for a walk' in the hope that that what left of your brain matter can grasp this concept.
I've seen players who have the full game and have had the full game since last week make near identical criticisms to the ones I originally made, Infact, look at what 'Kevthedrummer' on this forum just posted a few mins ago regarding the final version, he said....
"hey have also completely stamped out dribbling, which is shit quite frankly"
Now read my post from LAST WEEK where I say pretty much the same thing, AKA I dont need to waste money on the final version to find out the dribbling is still not good enough.
Do you understand now, I can't be way off the mark if some of the fuckers who have the full game are seeing the same issues in the final version, that I saw in the demo. Also, go on the fifa forums, and check out the people on there complaining about how Online is broken, and How career mode has hardly changed since FIFA10 and look at the bugs people are complaining about, horrific bugs like this where players disappear at the beginning of the game
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/39001659
You dont have to buy the final version to realise there is some fucked up shit going on in fifa11.
You= Crybaby-pussyhole.
If you start some personal shit, finish it, dont decide you cant handle it then start heading for the exit.
If you think going to extreme's is "grown up" then fill your boots. Rest assured me and probably most of the people reading this will feel sorry for/ be laughing at - you. As I said - I actually don't think you are right mate.
With regard the game - we will have to give it a couple of weeks and see which game plays better over a period of time.
Got FIFA yesterday, for me its the first game to surpass PES 5, I know it has its flaws and has problems online(I only play CM and offline multiplayer) but all manual fifa is truly stunning in gameplay terms although it can be the most infuriating game ever. CPU AI is still abit generic but I can effect this with custom tactics. The shooting is immense and you can aim anywhere and put topspin on the ball or hit straight trajectory depending on how you move the analog. I can't wait for PES 2011 and it will offer me things that fifa cannot, I just feel PES still has too much of an assisted aspect whereas fifa mixes stats with user input brilliantly. I know more flaws will become apparent the more I play but its a fantastic game can't wait to see what pes has to offer. Finally FIFA also has attention to detail for the first time, fifa 10 felt stale quite quickly although it was a great game.
good post mate - getting mine tonight
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 15:48
Got FIFA yesterday, for me its the first game to surpass PES 5, I know it has its flaws and has problems online(I only play CM and offline multiplayer) but all manual fifa is truly stunning in gameplay terms although it can be the most infuriating game ever. CPU AI is still abit generic but I can effect this with custom tactics. The shooting is immense and you can aim anywhere and put topspin on the ball or hit straight trajectory depending on how you move the analog. I can't wait for PES 2011 and it will offer me things that fifa cannot, I just feel PES still has too much of an assisted aspect whereas fifa mixes stats with user input brilliantly. I know more flaws will become apparent the more I play but its a fantastic game can't wait to see what pes has to offer. Finally FIFA also has attention to detail for the first time, fifa 10 felt stale quite quickly although it was a great game.
I respect your opinion. I just wanted to make a point.
For alot of people, Manual takes away from the reasons they enjoy football games, In that manual on fifa tends not to support player individuality no?? Maybe its different on fifa11, (ill fire up the xbox and try it) but on manual if you make a mistake isnt it YOU making the mistake rather than the player?
If so, for many that defeats the object of having a game with individuality, yes, Passing on PES may well be more assisted, but the passing is based more on PLAYER STATS, thus why Xavi is a better passer than Pedro, rather than user input.
Just a point.
If you think going to extreme's is "grown up"
Are you still here? Thought you said 'Laters' a few posts ago....
You talking about me going to extremes when you said.
manbitch emptying your ar5ehole ........while he uses his 2 free hands to play with manual controls on Fifa.
Something you should try"
LMAO. Your a clown mate.
good post mate - getting mine tonight
Enjoy it man, give it time though some people judge the game too quickly like they do with pes, the controls of fifa are very subtle. If you haven't already try manual passing, its more stat based and intuitive this year which adds more individuality to players.
I respect your opinion. I just wanted to make a point.
For alot of people, Manual takes away from the reasons they enjoy football games, In that manual on fifa tends not to support player individuality no?? Maybe its different on fifa11, (ill fire up the xbox and try it) but on manual if you make a mistake isnt it YOU making the mistake rather than the player?
If so, for many that defeats the object of having a game with individuality, yes, Passing on PES may well be more assisted, but the passing is based more on PLAYER STATS, thus why Xavi is a better passer than Pedro, rather than user input.
Just a point.
Are still here? Thought you said 'Laters' a few posts ago....
You talking about me going to extremes when you said.
LMAO. Your a clown mate.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I respect your opinion. I just wanted to make a point.
For alot of people, Manual takes away from the reasons they enjoy football games, In that manual on fifa tends not to support player individuality no?? Maybe its different on fifa11, (ill fire up the xbox and try it) but on manual if you make a mistake isnt it YOU making the mistake rather than the player?
If so, for many that defeats the object of having a game with individuality, yes, Passing on PES may well be more assisted, but the passing is based more on PLAYER STATS, thus why Xavi is a better passer than Pedro, rather than user input.
Just a point.
I agree to some extent tech, but this year manual passing is different and more contextual like pes 5, stats also have an effect and you have to think about body balance and the position your in. I do feel more individuality this year regards to passing, something missing from 08,09 and 10. Never played semi or assisted so not sure how shooting and passing is effected there.
Enjoy it man, give it time though some people judge the game too quickly like they do with pes, the controls of fifa are very subtle. If you haven't already try manual passing, its more stat based and intuitive this year which adds more individuality to players.
Quality news - keen to try Spurs on Manual passing.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 15:55
If you haven't already try manual passing, its more stat based and intuitive this year which adds more individuality to players.
So in fifa this year, the manual passing takes stats into account right? Is this just a feature in the final version or is it the same in the demo, cos im firing up the xbox now to test this shit.
So in fifa this year, the manual passing takes stats into account right? Is this just a feature in the final version or is it the same in the demo, cos im firing up the xbox now to test this shit.
Didn't play the demo that much mate, it just feels more realistic to me and you can also add curve with the through ball depending on the angle. I use through ball for most short passes. I used to think the manual on fifa was perfect as it was all down to you but this is unrealistic and passing can become generic, this year its different for me personally and it feels more tactical. Shooting is so good you can even use it as a 2nd type of driven pass as now the shooting is pretty much 360, or in other words there is so much more variation. I don't have the patch by the way dont think it made major changes though regarding passing.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 16:12
Didn't play the demo that much mate, it just feels more realistic to me and you can also add curve with the through ball depending on the angle. I use through ball for most short passes. I used to think the manual on fifa was perfect as it was all down to you but this is unrealistic and passing can become generic, this year its different for me personally and it feels more tactical. Shooting is so good you can even use it as a 2nd type of driven pass as now the shooting is pretty much 360, or in other words there is so much more variation. I don't have the patch by the way dont think it made major changes though regarding passing.
Ok, im playing now with Messi and Iniesta etc in defense, and goalkeepers and defenders upfront on all manual, so far, no noticeable difference between players, I will play a little more, and see what happens.
Stormrider
01-10-2010, 17:16
Enjoy it man, give it time though some people judge the game too quickly like they do with pes, the controls of fifa are very subtle. If you haven't already try manual passing, its more stat based and intuitive this year which adds more individuality to players.
This makes no fuckin sense to me. If manual passing is stat based, then how on earth can they call it manual?
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 17:24
This makes no fuckin sense to me. If manual passing is stat based, then how on earth can they call it manual?
LMAO, your kind of right, the reason I didn't go down that route, is that I think its possible to implement player individuality on a ''manual'' framework depending on what your interpretation of manual is.
If your interpretation of manual = User controls every single thing
Then yes, your probably right, if the user controls everything, then using player stats is taking element of control away from the player and therefore not manual by that definition.
This makes no fuckin sense to me. If manual passing is stat based, then how on earth can they call it manual?
Sorry to sound dismissive but I can't be fucked explaining exactly how it works, people who have played manual like me since fifa 08 will know what I mean. Manual is maybe the wrong name for it, but stats affect it simple, though dont know exactly how its programmed, its called manual as the user still plays a big part in where the ball goes but it depends on other variables as well.
I just got fifa 11 today. Started career mode with Athletico madrid.
The gameplay is smoother than the demo and yeah it is slightly beter than the demo but not as much as some people are hyping it.
OVERALL, IT'S IS QUALITY HOWEVER the things tech and I mentioned are still there. I couldn't see why people are hyping it so much.
Yeah overall it's better than 10 especially the shooting and it has more wow moments than 10 for sure, but the flaws are pretty evident.
STRENGTH IS OVERRATED BADLY
The AI IS HORRIFIC. Really, it's generic, stupid, and annoying. When the AI is controlling strong players (even though not dribblers), he can dribble past you like messi and you can't even get near him. Makes him surrounded with a filed where you can't even get close. I was shocked that they didn't do anything about this. It's the most annoying thing ever.
Individuality is slightly better than 10, but I feel that players misplace a pass, not because of stats, but because the AI decided too. I don't know. Not sure about this, but it seems like it atm.
And the AI players INTERCEPTS WAY TOO MUCH. It's annoying.
There are moments where you feel clattered, not a bad thing, but the way it is on fifa 11, is annoying. When that happens, you cannot do a thing because if you pass, they intercept, if you try to dribble, they push you out and take the ball.
Then I encountered a glitch.
It seems that when the AI wants to score, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO (btw I was a pretty solid defender in 10 ) THEY WILL SCORE, even if your AI controlled defenders run away from AI strikers. Yeah I encountered this in my last game. I conceded 2 goals because of this stupid bug.
I feel that the AI is horrific. Seriously at times GAME BREAKING ON WORLD CLASS. I don't mind cheating but NOT LIKE THAT.
But it has a good side too :)
The shooting is pretty solid and as I said, there are wow moments that I didn't feel in fifa 10.
The presentation is pretty good, the career mode improvements are solid, the animations seem smoother and better, the player movement is good, the build up is better than 10, and overall the game has improved from fifa 10 and I was really surprised by that. For the first time, in fifa, I felt surprised with a goal I made with Marchisio where I didn't expect it to go in. That was great.
Stormrider
01-10-2010, 18:04
Sorry to sound dismissive but I can't be fucked explaining exactly how it works, people who have played manual like me since fifa 08 will know what I mean. Manual is maybe the wrong name for it, but stats affect it simple, though dont know exactly how its programmed, its called manual as the user still plays a big part in where the ball goes but it depends on other variables as well.
I thought that's what semi-auto is for. If what you say is true then that's pretty cool but very misleading from EA.
Kevthedrummer
01-10-2010, 18:14
I just got fifa 11 today. Started career mode with Athletico madrid.
The gameplay is smoother than the demo and yeah it is slightly beter than the demo but not as much as some people are hyping it.
OVERALL, IT'S IS QUALITY HOWEVER the things tech and I mentioned are still there. I couldn't see why people are hyping it so much.
Yeah overall it's better than 10 especially the shooting and it has more wow moments than 10 for sure, but the flaws are pretty evident.
STRENGTH IS OVERRATED BADLY
The AI IS HORRIFIC. Really, it's generic, stupid, and annoying. When the AI is controlling strong players (even though not dribblers), he can dribble past you like messi and you can't even get near him. Makes him surrounded with a filed where you can't even get close. I was shocked that they didn't do anything about this. It's the most annoying thing ever.
Individuality is slightly better than 10, but I feel that players misplace a pass, not because of stats, but because the AI decided too. I don't know. Not sure about this, but it seems like it atm.
And the AI players INTERCEPTS WAY TOO MUCH. It's annoying.
There are moments where you feel clattered, not a bad thing, but the way it is on fifa 11, is annoying. When that happens, you cannot do a thing because if you pass, they intercept, if you try to dribble, they push you out and take the ball.
Then I encountered a glitch.
It seems that when the AI wants to score, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO (btw I was a pretty solid defender in 10 ) THEY WILL SCORE, even if your AI controlled defenders run away from AI strikers. Yeah I encountered this in my last game. I conceded 2 goals because of this stupid bug.
I feel that the AI is horrific. Seriously at times GAME BREAKING ON WORLD CLASS. I don't mind cheating but NOT LIKE THAT.
But it has a good side too :)
The shooting is pretty solid and as I said, there are wow moments that I didn't feel in fifa 10.
The presentation is pretty good, the career mode improvements are solid, the animations seem smoother and better, the player movement is good, the build up is better than 10, and overall the game has improved from fifa 10 and I was really surprised by that. For the first time, in fifa, I felt surprised with a goal I made with Marchisio where I didn't expect it to go in. That was great.
I find that the interceptions are because of the lack of power behind the passing as I mentioned in my post... but yeah I'm totally with you on this one. 2011 will be a PES year for me.
FIFA feels like it's cheating you much like 2008-09 of PES did (didn't really play 10 much) - I could just tell when they were going to score. There was nothing I could do... 89 mins, 0-0.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 18:20
but I feel that players misplace a pass, not because of stats, but because the AI decided too. I don't know. Not sure about this, but it seems like it atm.
Its something else I found in the demo, its the contextual error system they use I think, The AI says 'right your missing that one now', perhaps it does that more for the shitter player than the good ones, and that is fifa's player individuality, but I too think there is something going on there, can quite work it out though.
Play MLO, I've heard the AI there is pretty good :lol:.
I agree with what you said shaun regarding the AI cheating, However I feel it was worse on 10. The good thing is there are more ways round it this year and its not as gamebreaking as other parts of the game are so good for me personally. I think shooting on manual is fantastic on this game, there are so many different ways you can strike the ball the shot button can sometime be used like the driven pass, I have done a few cross field passes at mid height with the shot button. I will struggle to go back to pes's slightly scripted shooting after this.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 18:45
I agree with what you said shaun regarding the AI cheating, However I feel it was worse on 10. The good thing is there are more ways round it this year and its not as gamebreaking as other parts of the game are so good for me personally. I think shooting on manual is fantastic on this game, there are so many different ways you can strike the ball the shot button can sometime be used like the driven pass, I have done a few cross field passes at mid height with the shot button. I will struggle to go back to pes's slightly scripted shooting after this.
I'm glad you like Manual on fifa, its a challenge no doubt, but i think you missing the point here, Pes's shooting is ''scripted'' in accordance with player stats, which is what gives the game depth compared to manual shooting.
Basically yes, Technically, Full Manual is a skill and its harder to pick up than the standard passing on PES.
But can you really tell the difference on manual between a shot with Xavi and a shot with Iniesta? Im not sure you can, and that's why manual is nice in terms of testing your skill, but the players can end up feeling to similar and then it doesnt matter who have on the ball...then the game can become repetitive.
For example, I Played World cup on manual passing, for a week or so it was nice, but all the players felt the same man, game got boring afterwards, but maybe thats me.
I think FIFA players want more individulity which is why people like me were excited a EA's sales pitch regarding how every player is gonna be different, but I just dont see how their intepretation of manual fits in with that, maybe I havent played manual enough, but the reason I dont really touch it, is because to me, on fifa, manual = hardly any difference between players=i dont care who is on the ball= I dont care who i play in which position= game goes in the bin within 3 weeks.
I'm glad you like Manual on fifa, its a challenge no doubt, but i think you missing the point here, Pes's shooting is ''scripted'' in accordance with player stats, which is what gives the game depth compared to manual shooting.
Basically yes, Technically, Full Manual is a skill and its harder to pick up than the standard passing on PES.
But can you really tell the difference on manual between a shot with Xavi and a shot with Iniesta? Im not sure you can, and that's why manual is nice in terms of testing your skill, but the players can end up feeling to similar and then it doesnt matter who have on the ball...then the game can become repetitive.
For example, I Played World cup on manual passing, for a week or so it was nice, but all the players felt the same man, game got boring afterwards, but maybe thats me.
I think FIFA players want more individulity which is why people like me were excited a EA's sales pitch regarding how every player is gonna be different, but I just dont see how their intepretation of manual fits in with that, maybe I havent played manual enough, but the reason I dont really touch it, is because to me, on fifa, manual = hardly any difference between players=i dont care who is on the ball= I dont care who i play in which position= game goes in the bin within 3 weeks.
Tech I'm not missing your point mate just disagree slightly, I know exactly how pes works I have played it since the first installment. Strangely I agree with you in most parts apart from putting fifa in the bin:ohmy: although I have snapped a few discs in half in my time. I do sometimes feel I have less of a connection with my team on fifa because of what you mentioned. With pes last gen I had the feeling that stats would rightly make the difference but I was still in control, on recent additions I score and sometimes feel like the game did it which is just plain wrong and I'm almost certain PES 2012 will be even more manual based. I have just been messing about in arena after some of the excellent discussion in this thread, I was comparing how it felt to shoot and pass with Sneijder compared to Fletcher and I really did feel the difference. I got sick of fifa 10 after a while because it was so stale even on manual, this year I feel key improvements have been made and its clear some of their influences come from last gen PES games. I can't wait for PES 2011 and I may even prefer it to FIFA 11, at the same time I feel FIFA is not far from perfection but whether EA carry on down the path to perfection is upto them. It pains me to say it but if FIFA has a deeper CM with integrated CL and europa League and better team individuality I don't think I would go anywhere near PES.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 19:36
Tech I'm not missing your point mate just disagree slightly, I know exactly how pes works I have played it since the first installment. Strangely I agree with you in most parts apart from putting fifa in the bin:ohmy: although I have snapped a few discs in half in my time. I do sometimes feel I have less of a connection with my team on fifa because of what you mentioned. With pes last gen I had the feeling that stats would rightly make the difference but I was still in control, on recent additions I score and sometimes feel like the game did it which is just plain wrong and I'm almost certain PES 2012 will be even more manual based. I have just been messing about in arena after some of the excellent discussion in this thread, I was comparing how it felt to shoot and pass with Sneijder compared to Fletcher and I really did feel the difference. I got sick of fifa 10 after a while because it was so stale even on manual, this year I feel key improvements have been made and its clear some of their influences come from last gen PES games. I can't wait for PES 2011 and I may even prefer it to FIFA 11, at the same time I feel FIFA is not far from perfection but whether EA carry on down the path to perfection is upto them. It pains me to say it but if FIFA has a deeper CM with integrated CL and europa League and better team individuality I don't think I would go anywhere near PES.
Fair do's, its your preference at the end of the day.
Shaun7, do me a favour, try fifa11 full version on manual and see if you can tell a difference in passing between say.........Sneijder and Eto'o.
Anyway tech I hope you find some enjoyment with FIFA 11, when I get PES 2011 i may be able to see more glaring flaws with FIFA(even playing pes 2010 allowed me to do this with 10) until then Its quite tough to judge. Its fucking great though finally having two class football sims that both offer something different. Roll on the 8th october.
Fair do's, its your preference at the end of the day.
Shaun7, do me a favour, try fifa11 full version on manual and see if you can tell a difference in passing between say.........Sneijder and Eto'o.
Gonna try it tomorrow. Was gonna try it anyway.
Anyway it's all down to preference this year as both games can have close to ground breaking glitches, but if you can see through that, both offer something different when it comes to football.
So roll on the 8th october to finally compare pes 11 to fifa 11 in terms of everything. Since the full version has all the teams so much better to compare.:)
4 hours on, im still trying to work out what the fuck Amateur is talking about, I kinda see what he's saying about how you can do much with the left stick other than stand still or run (in fifa there is an inbetween slow dribble you can do if you dont push the analouge stick all the to the max) but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided passing and player individuality and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting, or maybe I dont understand at all LMAO.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick, so you press the stick in a direction to mimic the direction of the pass, the longer you pull or push the stick, the more power, let the player attributes have a say in both the power and direction....does that free up the left analogue stick for doing more stuff??? (long passing is easy, assign a shoulder button, and hold it down whilst moving the stick for long pass etc)
It's fairly simple,
This is why we now have a power bar for passing the ball, because in PES10 the left analogue stick was responsible for both the direction of the pass and the power of the pass... and this limited both dribbling and passing.
Because in PES10, the left analogue stick was responsible for determining the distance of the pass, as well as direction of the pass; as well as the direction in which you run with the ball, and in some instances, it also determines the distance which you cover with the ball.
The uni-polar left analogue stick concept CANNOT handle all these different areas, passing, dribbling, shooting.
This is why dribbling was so simplistic and unresponsive in PES10, because the left analogue stick concept is not flexible; this is why passing felt so outdated when compared with FIFA10.
What they did with Passing, where they added a power bar, so that you now have independent control over the direction and the power of the pass.
The power bar relieved the left analogue stick from the burden of determining the power behind the pass, and thus, you now have more directions and overall better control over your passing.
You do the same thing with dribbling; fairly simple, you add a "power bar" into dribbling... and you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of unnecessary redundancies.
The power bar concept used for dribbling, would be two different type of SPRINT buttons, one attached to the R1 button and the other to the L1 button: responsive and comfortable controls, to determine the distance covered with the ball at your feet.
For dribbling, you cannot have a "power bar" identical to the one that is used for passing the ball; dribbling demands instantly responsive power bars, the L1 button and the R1 button.
With the additional L1 SPRINT button, you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of, not only determining the direction in which you run, but also determining the distance of your running or your dribbling...
Now, as a result, if the left analogue stick has a range of movement of 1 to 10: you now have 1 to 10, to implement all sorts of on-the-spot physics and animations.
And thus, if you direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of the SPRINT buttons, the left analogue stick will not produce running animations which affect the direction in which you RUN with the ball, instead, the left analogue stick would produce on-the-spot animations which affect the direction in which you DRIBBLE with the ball.
If you direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of the SPRINT buttons, the left analogue stick will not move you from the space, instead, it would produce on-the-spot dribbling animations, on-the-spot stationary dribbling animations, on-the-spot running dribbling animations, on-the-spot trapping animations, on-the-spot passing animations, on-the-spot shooting animations.
Stationary Dribbling -- without the assistance of the sprint buttons, you direct the left analogue stick when stationary or when the ball movement is dead.
Running Dribbling -- without the assistance of the sprint buttons, you direct the left analogue stick when the ball carrier is already running with the ball.
That's how you start a revolution, you replace the thing that is holding everything down...
but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like player individuality
Stationary dribbling -- the higher this attribute the more stationary dribbling animations the player will have, thus enabling him with the ability of shielding the ball without the necessity of running nor moving from the space. (Roman Riquelme, Xavi Hernandez, Andrea Pirlo, Ronaldinho, etc)
Speed Dribbling -- the higher this attribute the more control the player will have when dribbling at speed, the more dribbling animations the player will have when dribbling at high speeds. (Lio Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Arjen Robben, etc)
Passing Technique -- stat to determine the on-the-spot passing animations of the players. The players with good passing technique will have a certain edge, because the passing animations will create passing angles that would be impossible with the average player.
Trapping Technique -- stat to determine the 1st-touch animations of the players. Players with good trapping technique will have a certain edge that the average player will not have.
Shooting Technique -- the higher this attribute the more on-the-spot shooting animations the player will have. Thus Zlatan Ibrahimovic will have countless of on-the-spot shooting animations, that the average player will not have.
Player individuality would flourish in a big way... the more different and specialized types of animations the game has, the more noticeable and relevant the player individuality will be.
If the left analogue stick has a range of movement from 1 to 10, and running animations compose 2 to 10 of that range of movement...
You can see where the problem is, in that you can only implement a handful of non-running animations into a 1 to 2 range of movement, out of a 1 to 10 range of movement.
This is why the game revolves around RUNNING, because the left analogue stick produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS at all times with or without the assistance of a SPRINT button; dribbling, passing, shooting, defending, are all attached to the left analogue stick button.
Konami and EA Sports should make better use of the left analogue stick, replace and rectify the outdated left analogue stick concept, instead of adding more and more little gimmicks in an effort to cover up or hide the underlying flaw.
With dribbling, the left analogue stick is currently responsible for the direction in which you run, the distance covered (in some instances), and we only have ONE sprint button.
So replacing an aged foundation which is about to fall down... That's a start, you fix the damn dribbling system which seems to be designed for 5 year olds: direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT sprint, and you can still cover distances of over 100 feet...
Because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS, without the assistance of a SPRINT button, because it works the same with or without the assistance of a SPRINT button; and thus, it is possible to cover distances of over 100 feet without the assistance of a sprint button.
LMAO
You change how the left analogue stick works, and then you change the defensive system with something that fits in with the new dribbling and man-marking system.
but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting,
The problem that you don't seem to fully understand is that the defensive system is broken...
This is why laser guided passing, too easy to hold possession, etc, happens so easily and so consistently; this is why, even though you can see it coming you cannot do anything to prevent it; this is why you can always exploit the same obvious flaw hundreds of times and, from a defensive standpoint, you cannot do anything to prevent it from happening again and again...
Because the defensive system seems to be designed for 5 years olds: run after the ball like a headless chicken, don't think, just do it.
You can only react to circumstances by running around like a headless chicken, but you cannot manipulate what type of circumstance you want to create for the team in possession of the ball.
When the team in possession of the ball starts passing the ball between the CBs and WBs from side to side, and you cannot do anything about it other than running after them like a headless chicken, in vain; why is that?
The defensive system is broken and has been broken since before PES5, it has always been broken; the only difference is that the advances in other areas of the game further expose a flaw that wasn't as evident in games like PES5 and PES6.
It is an obvious and predictable system, with absolutely no SUBSTANCE to it, a headless chicken dance, because the defensive system is designed to hide or minimize the flaws of the outdated left analogue stick concept.
A competent defensive system might actually make the game more boring, because the dribbling system and man-marking system is boring... Konami doesn't seem keen on exposing the weakest area of the game.
The dribbling system does not have an addictive hook to it, and the man-marking system is even worst; Konami needs to add SUBSTANCE into dribbling and man-marking... the way to do this is by making better use of the left analogue stick.
And I reiterate: the defensive system is broken...
The left analogue stick should not be used for manually controlling the direction in which a player runs when you are defending, because the left analogue stick is ONE button, yet we have TEN players on the pitch.
If the left analogue stick is responsible for determining, literally determining, the direction in which all the players RUN without the ball when defending... This means that the defensive system will be broken in one way or the other.
It means that you will spend your time pressing the R1 SPRINT button and directing the left analogue stick, doing trivial and redundant things which have little to do with playing football; even more redundant and trivial, if we consider the fact that everything is overwhelmingly predictable and obvious from our wide view perspective...
We have radar-like vision from our wide view perspective, and even though everything is painfully obvious and predictable... it is inevitable because the defensive system is broken and thus does not provide you with the tools required to play football.
At the same time, the wide view perspective is not responsible for the overwhelming predictable and obvious nature of the video game; the video game is predictable and obvious because the defensive system is predictable, obvious, inadequate, and straight out redundant, it has nothing to do with playing football, it has more to do with Usain Bolt.
And for this reason, defending becomes a boring procedure that you must endure, press R1 and RUN after the ball and apply double-coverage on the ball carrier: there's no substance to this system, no hook that makes it an enjoyable area of the game.
And more importantly, the usage of the left analogue stick is wasted on RUNNING ANIMATIONS as opposed to on-the-spot man-marking animations.
The left analogue stick should shift automatically and change to whomever is closest to the ball carrier, it should revolve around on-the-spot man-marking, and not around mindless moving-from-the-spot running.
MAN-MARKING ANIMATIONS (ON-THE-SPOT): marking the left side of the ball carrier, marking the right side of the ball carrier, center, tactical fouls, using the right foot to intercept a pass or to tackle, using the left foot to intercept a pass or to tackle, etc.
RUNNING ANIMATIONS (MOVING-FROM-THE-SPOT): run and crash into the ball carrier, resulting in endless spot-kicks and fragmented play due to the lack of fluidity... fragmented play being a by-product of the lack of physics/animations.
Running without the ball when defending, should be semi-manual, the user cannot literally have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the directions in which all the players run when defending; instead, attach different players with different roles, DMF, WB, CB, AMF, CMF, CF, to different buttons.
Certain buttons, like the buttons which would be attached to the CFs, will only work when the ball is in the opponent's half of the pitch. Thus, you can sit back with your DMF, and yet dictate the semi-manual movement of one of your CF, because the button attached to the DMF and the button attached to the CF are independent tools.
When the ball crosses over into your half of the pitch, that same button which worked to trigger or produce off-the-ball pressure from your CF, will now work for another player with a different role.
By pressing the mentioned buttons (not specified), the players will automatically run after the ball, the ball dictates the off-the-ball movement: that's how football works.
The DMF will automatically position himself and move differently, to an AMF or WB or CB or CF; different role, different responsibilities, different priorities, different off-the-ball movement.
And thus, if the DMF is attached to the R1 button, and you were holding on to the R1 button when the opponent passed the ball: this will AUTOMATICALLY produce or trigger a specific type of defensive reaction from your DMF.
If you where not holding the R1 button at the time the opponent passed the ball: this will AUTOMATICALLY produce or trigger a slightly different, but decisively different, type of defensive reaction from your DMF.
Thus, you can no longer hold on to the R1 button and run around like a headless chicken because... guess what? You no longer have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which all your players move without the ball when defending, you can no longer hold on to the R1 button without any type of repercussion.
The defensive system is no longer broken, you now have the control to dictate certain circumstances and therefore manipulate how the team in possession of the ball will attack.
The off-the-ball movement when defending would no longer be scripted by the whims of a COM, instead, the defensive script would be dictated by the calculations or miss-calculations of the user.
You have to THINK about it, you have to time the R1 button, you have to anticipate your opponent, because holding or not holding the R1 button when the opponent passes the ball... will produce different type of defensive reactions from your DMF, and these defensive reactions will be critical when defending.
And when you get there, when you get close to the ball, you have to win the one-versus-one challenge via on-the-spot man-marking animations... as opposed to simply holding the R1 button and crashing into the ball carrier.
It would no longer be the INSUBSTANTIAL headless chicken run that it currently is.
As a result, you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of redundancies, and can now use the left analogue stick for things that have more to do with playing football and less to do with running around like headless chicken.
You create a new hook for defensive play, so that defending becomes something enjoyable, as opposed to a boring procedure that you must endure when not in possession of the ball.
We should not have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which your DMF runs without the ball; you need to relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of redundancies, in order to give more CONTROL and more SUBSTANCE to the user.
So,
1st -- you replace the outdated left analogue stick concept.
2nd -- you replace the broken defensive system.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick,
Some people might be into that idea,
For my part, I don't like the idea of passing the ball with the right analogue stick... forcing the user into constantly using the right analogue stick, it would feel too systematic for my taste.
I want more intuitive and responsive controls.
Tech_Skill
01-10-2010, 21:56
You do the same thing with the left analogue stick; fairly simple, if you direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT using any SPRINT button, the left analogue stick will not move you from the space, instead, it would produce on-the-spot dribbling animations
...........are you saying when you the move the play with the analogue stick without press sprint, the player dribbles, rather than moving the ball forward into space??
I have few words to say on the matter.
I play PES for BAL.
I play FIFA for when I wanna kick my brother in laws ass (he supports Arsenal, I mean come on!)
Craney91
01-10-2010, 22:55
TBH I’m that way with EA Sports now, I don’t need to play the product(s) to know what’s going to be wrong with them. Years and years of experience and buying into their scam, have taught me to not take one blind bit of notice from now on.
I can understand that maybe other developers and company’s maybe do deserve a try and a chance before giving a opinion or view on it, but this is EA Sports we are talking about here.
For instance, a few months back when Ubisoft released “Pure Football” you kind of had to play that! As it was the first try from Ubisoft....you needed to play it to be able to give a true/valid opinion of it.
With FIFA, it’s the same every single year, and for me that is more than enough to turn a blind eye to a small “irrelevant” thing like a demo or even its full game.
Yes, it’s the old argument “PES could learn from FIFA” about smoothness as PES is to “robotic”
But for me the MAJOR thing that sways me towards Pro Evo is that, for what it lacks in smoothness and polish compared to FIFA, it EXCELLS in responsiveness and always has! You tell it to do something and it will do it instantly. FIFA feels scripted in that way, and it feels as if the A.I. takes 50% of the control of the player you’re controlling.
That’s been the ice-age problem with FIFA, responsiveness and button recognition. (Press shoot first time and it will sometimes take 2 touches even before it gets into the animation to shoot and by that time the ball has been lost type of thing)
I don’t mind if PES is a little robotic, at least it does what you tell it to and id take that over smoothness and polish any day of the week.
Fully Manual is the only thing thats good about FIFA gameplay-wise.
The problem with FIFA and in-particular EA Sports is that they try to capitalize on just about everything JUST so it sells more than its competition. This isn’t just FIFA, this is every single game they come out with.
Fair enough from a business point of view, of course you are going to try and capitalize on everything to give you that edge sales-wise. That’s just how the world and money works and that will never change.
But for somebody with half a brain cell who can actually use common sense to pick fault with the game and its developers.....should know these things.
EA I feel wrongly claim simulation, this to me is the biggest fraud of all. If you honestly believe anything EA Sports produce, is true to life, apart from the licenses they get, then I seriously think you need looking at!
EA have a habit of making a game to their taste….Even though they’ll feed you with the same old shit “We look at feedback each year!”
Well is it me? or do they not pay any attention to the constructive criticism from people in the know every single year? Am I missing something? Because I still see the same shitty problems with FIFA 10 that I saw in FIFA 98!
They’ll try and bend the rules of the sport, polish them, give it a fancy name and THEN try and make out it deserves £40. I honestly think EA have made FIFA 09 4 times, 09 (obviously), 10, World Cup and now 11.
Progress for me with EA is slug like, it barely changes each year and apart from the odd add-on here and there, it really doesn’t warrant a new game each year.
The thing I get with EA and especially the majority of its gaming community is that they’ve kind of brainwashed its buyers, so that they think that getting everything done for them in the game (I.E. Pressure, tackling, passing etc) is the way every game should be and if it doesn’t meet those (Automatic) standards then that must mean the game is hopeless.
That’s why many FIFA players will give PES a go and say (The passing’s shit, the shootings shit, it won’t tackle when I hold the button down, I can’t win a header and then instead of thinking about what to say, the same old tripe comes out, THIS IS ARCADE!)
Errrrr, whats FIFA then?
That’s the major difference between PES and FIFA, PES encourages practice, yet gives you the INITIATIVE to want to play it more and more to get to that level you feel comfortable with (addictive). PES isn’t perfect (Nothing is!) but what you do get with Pro Evo is a sense of CONTROL over what you want to do, what you TELL the pad to do. That connection is there with button and ball (More than ever in PES 2011) but the fundamental and system has always been there from day 1!
I’ll be the first to admit, I thought PES 2009 was atrocious (every time you turned 45 degrees, it did a feint) PES 2010 wasn’t brilliant, but it showed improvement, and PES 2011 has improved once again from its younger brother.
That’s what you want to see EACH YEAR, significant improvement!
I find myself with FIFA when you look at it and play it enough, it’s actually surprising just how little control you have over ANYTHING, For instance heres a everyday attack on goal in FIFA:
(You’ll tell the pad to shoot, it won’t, and it will take extra 2 touches and then get tackled because of it.)
Did I want it to do that? Did I tell it to do that? NO…..If I wanted to take a touch, I would’ve told it to….then got the shot of when I told it to.
Yet you know as well as me you will get the usual “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried the demo and full game” JIBBERISH. It’s gotten to the point with EA Sports, I KNOW what to expect before its even been talked about by its Dev’s. Call me mystic meg, but when you play all the sport games it produce’s and see similar problems with all of them, and then the same problems happen again on its next installment. How does that give you the confidence that the next one will sort it out? When they haven’t done fuck all about that same naggy problem for 3 years+ and the same dev’s are there making the new one? Ay?
That’s why I refused to download FIFA 11’s demo, that’s why I won’t be buying it either!
So for all those that want a mainstream automatic gitchfest, fuck of on GLITCH 11,
All those that want a representation of football, play PES.
Good comments,
I agree with most of what you said, I prefer PES over FIFA, though like FIFA, PES has not improved very much in the last 7 years or so.
What I don't want to see, is PES11.5 in two years time... I really hope PES11 is the stepping stone towards something better and different.
I don't want to play PES13 and find out that the left analogue stick is the same old rubbish, and that the defensive system is still the same old broken BS.
Right, I am in the possession of FIFA... and I have to say that for the first time in years, I actually found PES (demo) a much more enjoyable game playing experience. I also never thought I would say that I prefer PES's passing system, but I really do... There's something fundamentally wrong with the weight and power of passes in this years' FIFA, they seem to fall short and trickle quite slowly even though the full power gage is used. Most passes get cut out by the opposition. They have also completely stamped out dribbling, which is shit quite frankly. I mean I'm glad they made it harder, but this is another element where PES is better.
PES lets you play the beautiful game... FIFA forces you to play frantic ping-pong heartless and relentless football. It feels crammed.
I know PES isn't perfect, but to me, it does what I want, and you can dictate the game in the manner you wish from slow build up to fast passes zipping around.
Since you can trade FIFA 10 for FIFA 11 and only pay £8 (at Asda) I might as well get both FIFA and PES in case one doesn't last the test of time, but for now, PES is the one for me.
It's good to hear someone whom I consider credible (apart from Tech_Skill and shaun7 and a few others) saying such things about PES11.
That's basically what I thought about PES10 vs FIFA10, I just thought it was less shit than FIFA10, though both games were a great disappointment in my opinion.
It finally looks like Konami will move on from the PES5 and PES6 days.
Comparing PES10 with PES11, what can you do in PES11 that you could not do with PES10?
I know that passing, for obvious reasons, but what about on-the-spot dribbling? and dribbling in small pockets of space? man-marking?
I just got fifa 11 today. Started career mode with Athletico madrid.
The gameplay is smoother than the demo and yeah it is slightly beter than the demo but not as much as some people are hyping it.
OVERALL, IT'S IS QUALITY HOWEVER the things tech and I mentioned are still there. I couldn't see why people are hyping it so much.
Yeah overall it's better than 10 especially the shooting and it has more wow moments than 10 for sure, but the flaws are pretty evident.
STRENGTH IS OVERRATED BADLY
The AI IS HORRIFIC. Really, it's generic, stupid, and annoying. When the AI is controlling strong players (even though not dribblers), he can dribble past you like messi and you can't even get near him. Makes him surrounded with a filed where you can't even get close. I was shocked that they didn't do anything about this. It's the most annoying thing ever.
Individuality is slightly better than 10, but I feel that players misplace a pass, not because of stats, but because the AI decided too. I don't know. Not sure about this, but it seems like it atm.
And the AI players INTERCEPTS WAY TOO MUCH. It's annoying.
There are moments where you feel clattered, not a bad thing, but the way it is on fifa 11, is annoying. When that happens, you cannot do a thing because if you pass, they intercept, if you try to dribble, they push you out and take the ball.
Then I encountered a glitch.
It seems that when the AI wants to score, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO (btw I was a pretty solid defender in 10 ) THEY WILL SCORE, even if your AI controlled defenders run away from AI strikers. Yeah I encountered this in my last game. I conceded 2 goals because of this stupid bug.
I feel that the AI is horrific. Seriously at times GAME BREAKING ON WORLD CLASS. I don't mind cheating but NOT LIKE THAT.
But it has a good side too :)
The shooting is pretty solid and as I said, there are wow moments that I didn't feel in fifa 10.
The presentation is pretty good, the career mode improvements are solid, the animations seem smoother and better, the player movement is good, the build up is better than 10, and overall the game has improved from fifa 10 and I was really surprised by that. For the first time, in fifa, I felt surprised with a goal I made with Marchisio where I didn't expect it to go in. That was great.
Sounds like the same old bullshit, but more scripted than before; hence, the "personality +"
It has been done with PES5 and PES6, it now has more directions attached to it... the underlying flaw is still the same.
Great business for EA Sports, not so great for the hardcore fans who expect real improvements as opposed to details and gimmicks that are added to hide the flaws, not fixing the flaws.
...........are you saying when you the move the play with the analogue stick without press sprint, the player dribbles, rather than moving the ball forward into space??
You are closer now...
I suggest you give it a 2nd read because I changed a lot of what I initially said, my first attempt was a bit rushed and perhaps too vague and not specific enough.
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/5261.html
The link that I just posted will give you a much better understanding of what I mean.
I think that if you give a 2nd read to the last post where I quoted you, and then give a quick read to the link that I just posted...
It's not very easy to understand without the assistance of video footage, but I think it should definitely give you a much clearer idea than the idea that you currently have.
Simply put, the idea is,
------------------------------------------------
1st, DRIBBLING with the ball
Will be done by directing the left analogue stick WITHOUT using the L1 nor the R1 SPRINT buttons.
The left analogue stick will NOT move the ball forwards into the space... Instead, the left analogue stick will move the ball in relation to the space that you occupy.
In other words, the left analogue stick affects the direction in which you DRIBBLE with the ball, not the direction in which you RUN or ACCELERATE with the ball.
2nd, RUNNING with the ball
Will be done by using one of the two (or the two) SPRINT buttons whilst at the same time maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
The left analogue stick will move the ball forwards into the space... in other words, the left analogue stick affects the direction in which you RUN or ACCELERATE with the ball, not the direction in which you DRIBBLE with the ball.
--------------------------------------------------
In the link that I posted, it explains the idea of "ball movement" and that ONCE the "movement of the ball is kick-started" you can move through space and dribble on-the-spot whilst at the same time also moving through space, thus the difference between dribbling feints and actually running or accelerating with the ball.
For instance, if you kick-started the ball movement, it was necessary to use one of the two SPRINT buttons in order to kick-start the movement of the ball... Once the ball is in movement, if you RELEASE THE SPRINT button and then go on to direct the left analogue stick...
This does not mean that the ball carrier will shift back into a STATIONARY STANCE, it does not means that the ball carrier will stop and dribble on-the-spot...
When the ball movement was kick-started into life, if you RELEASE THE SPRINT button and then direct the left analogue stick: the left analogue stick will produce on-the-spot dribbling animations but the ball carrier will CONTINUE moving through the space with the ball at his feet, depending on how you use the L1 and R1 SPRINT buttons.
At the same time, you can also kill or reduce the movement of the ball and shift back into a STATIONARY STANCE, and thus perform stationary dribbles.
And once in a STATIONARY STANCE, the left analogue stick will NOT move the ball forwards into the space... Instead, the left analogue stick will move the ball in relation to the space that you were occupying when you killed the movement of the ball.
The idea of "ball movement" is that the movement of the ball should not kick-start itself AUTOMATICALLY... because when that happens, like it happens in every PES and FIFA game, it minimizes every aspect of the video game.
Luis Figo is a good example of "ball movement" and "build-up dribbling",
Luis Figo covered a lot of distance, but he was a methodical dribbler of the ball... he did not straight out RAN at you like Lio Messi or Arjen Robben... he did his trademark on-the-spot dribbling feints, whilst running through space, and once the defender bit into the challenge, he would then try to run/accelerate past the defender.
In other words, there is a difference between dribbling with the ball at your feet and accelerating with the ball at your feet; the idea is, build-up dribbling and then running/accelerating past the defender.
This is what Zinedine Zidane did, it is what Luis Figo did, it is what Roman Riquelme does, etc, etc.
It is also important to acknowledge that it is always necessary to do some build-up dribbling before actually accelerating past a defender; the thing is, that different types of dribblers use different types of build-up dribbling techniques.
So even Lio Messi needs to do some type of simple and efficient build-up dribbling feint, a build-up dribbling feint which accommodates his left foot and body posture in the perfect position to sprint off after the defender "bites" into the challenge; even great dribblers like Lio Messi need to do build-up dribbling before actually running or accelerating past an opponent.
Yet in PES and FIFA there is no build-up dribbling, no proper dribbling and feinting physics/animations; it skips the build-up dribbling and goes straight into RUNNING...
The left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, if you minimize the scope of non-running animations which can be implemented into the left analogue stick, you minimize everything.
In every PES game, despite the clear player individuality, it feels like every individual has the same dribbling approach as Lio Messi, everyone RUNS straight at defenders, no build-up dribbling is needed nor even possible, and that diminishes the player individuality... in real-life, I don't see Xavi Hernandez running straight at defenders.
With more different types of dribblers, different types of animations and techniques, additional stats; player individuality would flourish a great deal... and every area of the game would benefit in a positive way from such a revolution.
It would be very different to PES, very different to anything that has been done before, but in many ways... I think it would feel more like PES, slower were it needs to be, but more responsive and more accurate were it needs to be.
Got FIFA yesterday (a present...) and I have to say from what I've played so far, me likey. It's better than 10 & harder to build up play. There are some issues with passing, but non I can find so far with dribbling, though have only used the created player route do far. (Mixing different pace with change of direction & the odd bit of trick stick work quite well for me.)
The AI of weaker players is very apparent. I started at Accrington and can confirm they suck ass in a major way. In a cup game v Tranmere, I could tell which side was better just by watching behaviour.
It's by no means perfect, but continues to be a progression as far as i am concerned. And that's the crux of the whole thing. Personal preference.
Hello Clitty
02-10-2010, 14:43
Flick, how would you compare it to PES?
OK
just finish playing FIFA 11
WTF
soo many people have hyped this game up .... and the hype seems to play on their minds.!!
THIS IS Becomming EXACTLY like FIFA 10... i played online and won exaclty the same way i usually do . one two one and through ball , pass across and score. Ive scored some good ones with Rooney.
The goals i conceded are hideous! . they were so crap , literally headers and Defense AI messing up.
im disapointed . but it is a very good game. But for some reason i dont think it is better than PES.
The passing is horrid , 3 times my passes went to the wrong player , one which led to a goal .
The shooting is good. But the AI seems to be really silly.
FOR EG. i scored a chip the ball was rolling in , and my oppenents defense went to chase it before it goes over the line . Wayne rooney lol , is literally grabbing terry, and slowing him down ??
ball physcics arent as good as PES.
passing and freedom.i dont feel that much freedom anymore on FIFA. PES seems to be the freedom game.
the only thing that i feel FIFA has going for it.
-animations , brilliant
- liscences
-sound and AI.
-Build up play is harder [ i remember last year , i hammerd people because of easy build up play last year]
the GKS are very good. But the game online , is all about pressure. its more smooth and fluid than PES but i dont feel any depth to it.
ITS FEELS LIKE FIFA 10 . !!!! THE FIFA 11 DEMO LOOKED BETTER AND PLAYED BETTER THAN THIS.
the more i play the more it seems like FIFA 10 with tweaks ! , but it should keep me occupied until the 8th,
Seriously im shocked at the reviews and some opinions. Yes the game is very good. but not like some make it out to be . I actually think PES outshines in quite a few spots , and thats rare for me to say becasue ive been cursing it since last year comparing it to FIFA. this is the first time ever ive brought a FIFA game before PES.
overhyped.
And no emotion , it just feels DULL. AND PLEASE the player models dont look no where near PESs brilliance.
^THE AI IS NOT BAD, IT'S HORRIBLE. even after the 2nd day of play, I still say this.
As for the pressure. It's so UNREALISTIC. REALLY, GAMES IN REALITY, AREN'T ALL PRESSURE BASED LIKE IN FIFA 11.
For example, where is the brilliance of closing down the spaces?
Where's the clever defence movement?
These 2 are highly missing in fifa especially the first one. It's all about pressure, pressure and pressure. NO GAME OF REAL FOOTBALL PLAYS LIKE THAT.
Ofcourse pressure in important, but not like that.
It has to be done by closing down the spaces and then attacking the attacker CLEVERLY, not by spamming the pressure button.
But anyway, apart from the obvious stupid things, fifa 11 is better than fifa 10 without a doubt.
As I already said, there are wow moments that fifa 10 had missing. The shooting is much better in 11 too, especially in semi assisted. Finally, some good shooting in fifa.
BTW I totally agree about the passing power. It's way too low. I set the through balls to manual and still, the EXACT THING HAPPENS. The through pass, won't be powerful enough. Sad to see that.
But anyway, overall, it's better than 10.
^THE AI IS NOT BAD, IT'S HORRIBLE. even after the 2nd day of play, I still say this.
As for the pressure. It's so UNREALISTIC. REALLY, GAMES IN REALITY, AREN'T ALL PRESSURE BASED LIKE IN FIFA 11.
For example, where is the brilliance of closing down the spaces?
Where's the clever defence movement?
These 2 are highly missing in fifa especially the first one. It's all about pressure, pressure and pressure. NO GAME OF REAL FOOTBALL PLAYS LIKE THAT.
Ofcourse pressure in important, but not like that.
It has to be done by closing down the spaces and then attacking the attacker CLEVERLY, not by spamming the pressure button.
But anyway, apart from the obvious stupid things, fifa 11 is better than fifa 10 without a doubt.
As I already said, there are wow moments that fifa 10 had missing. The shooting is much better in 11 too, especially in semi assisted. Finally, some good shooting in fifa.
BTW I totally agree about the passing power. It's way too low. I set the through balls to manual and still, the EXACT THING HAPPENS. The through pass, won't be powerful enough. Sad to see that.
But anyway, overall, it's better than 10.
ok ive played more online ... 13 games or so.
The AI is terrible.
1. The game feels on rails !!! , how funny is that .
2. Its better than FIFA 10 , yes , because of shooting and difficault build up play.
Theres no emotion or depth to the game , it all feels basic. The scoring
and shooting DOES NOT feel satisfying at all . It feels very scripted.
The one on ones are now much harder cuz the keeper saves every shot
in the one on one situation.
The pressure thing is RIDICULOUS. STUPID. i mean its constant as it was in FIFA 10 WC . i mean how do i slow down gameplay , pass more and think of moves , rather than doing everything on the spot , randomly. Its very hectic. I mean as soon as one of my players gets the ball hes immedialty closed down and tackled, becasue of the easy tackling. And worse theres no indviduality so every player feels the same, its breaking the game for me. Unrealistic.
The game is good , but its not what critics said , amazing.
Theres a lot of flaws. And the biggest most annoying thing , is thats it FEELS LIKE FIFA 10 . i simply cant find a difference apart from the ball having much more weight to it.
its like PES 2009 AND PES 2010 , after a while the gameplay feels the same.
FIFA 11 is a tweaked verison of FIFA 10 , which i have respect for...... becasue EA are in a position to do that , But its not worth the hype and the high reviews. And i think PES has closed the gap and more.
Ive scored soo many goals the same way, of through pass and passing it in. Its not FUN. simple as ..
overall.
I just feel FIFAS marketing scheme , and liscenses are the core reason.
And the animations and physciality. These are the only two areas where its superior to PES. ...
Im disapointed. Its not a game i would play with freinds , fam for a very long time.
I agree about scripting. It's stupid. It's like the AI decided if you are gonna score and how many passes you will complete and which ones you'll fail.
I mean, most of the times I would know if I am NOT gonna make the pass BEFORE THE PLAYER PASSES.
Man, I seriously cannot get over this AI. I seriously cannot. It's far too annoying.
In world class, you can't slow the tempo because the AI will superman you with strength and if you try to do it to them, they'll continue turning and turning with marseille roulettes (the bad thing is that almost everyone does them in the best ever way like zidane) and you cannot touch them. It's like they're surrounded with force fields at times where you cannot get close.
And if you do get close and tackle them, they'll most likely get a foul because the referees are so biased towards the AI (though to be fair, it's slightly less annoying that in fifa 10). However, I do not agree about emotion. I do feel satisfaction when I score in fifa 11.
As for the reviews. 9 or 10 is pretty much STUPID. NO OTHER WAY TO SEE IT.
8 or 8.5 is fair in my book.
It would have easily been a 9 if the AI wasn't as horrible though.
ok ive played more online ... 13 games or so.
The AI is terrible.
1. The game feels on rails !!! , how funny is that .
2. Its better than FIFA 10 , yes , because of shooting and difficault build up play.
Theres no emotion or depth to the game , it all feels basic. The scoring
and shooting DOES NOT feel satisfying at all . It feels very scripted.
The one on ones are now much harder cuz the keeper saves every shot
in the one on one situation.
The pressure thing is RIDICULOUS. STUPID. i mean its constant as it was in FIFA 10 WC . i mean how do i slow down gameplay , pass more and think of moves , rather than doing everything on the spot , randomly. Its very hectic. I mean as soon as one of my players gets the ball hes immedialty closed down and tackled, becasue of the easy tackling. And worse theres no indviduality so every player feels the same, its breaking the game for me. Unrealistic.
The game is good , but its not what critics said , amazing.
Theres a lot of flaws. And the biggest most annoying thing , is thats it FEELS LIKE FIFA 10 . i simply cant find a difference apart from the ball having much more weight to it.
its like PES 2009 AND PES 2010 , after a while the gameplay feels the same.
FIFA 11 is a tweaked verison of FIFA 10 , which i have respect for...... becasue EA are in a position to do that , But its not worth the hype and the high reviews. And i think PES has closed the gap and more.
Ive scored soo many goals the same way, of through pass and passing it in. Its not FUN. simple as ..
overall.
I just feel FIFAS marketing scheme , and liscenses are the core reason.
And the animations and physciality. These are the only two areas where its superior to PES. ...
Im disapointed. Its not a game i would play with freinds , fam for a very long time.
Of course it's not fun, EA Sports has not done anything original, they just copied the D-Pad Oriented Concept that PES5 and PES6 used... and they transferred the D-Pad Concept into the Left Analogue Stick, and thus, attached more directions to it.
Adding directions to a flawed concept will not fix the underlying flaw, it will only hide it, not fix it.
The d-pad does not really has a range of movement, it is an outdated button with barely any depth to it; the reason for why certain flaws were not as evident in PES5 and PES6, is because the d-pad limitations covered the underlying flaw.
With FIFA10, PES10, FIFA11, PES11, certain flaws are more evident than ever because the progress in other areas of the game have further exposed the underlying flaw.
When you transfer that same d-pad concept to the left analogue stick, it means that you have added more directions... but it still revolves around RUNNING ANIMATIONS.
That's why FIFA10 and FIFA11 are overrated, because EA Sports has not done anything brilliant... actually, it's fairly simple what they did, they took PES5 and PES6 and they added more directions to it.
That's why the physical game, although it looks fluid and pretty, it's actually rather boring to play... because it is an illusion, a lot of physics and animations are missing.
If the left analogue stick has a range of movement from 1 to 10 in all directions, and running animations compose 2 to 10 percent of that 1 to 10 range of movement... you can see where the problem is, in that you can only implement a handful of non-running animations into a 1 to 2 percent out of a 1 to 10 range of movement.
The left analogue stick produces running animations without the assistance of a sprint button; the left analogue stick also produces running animations with the assistance of a sprint button: it always produces running animations...
This is why it is possible to cover distances of over 100 feet without the assistance of a sprint button, because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS...
This is because, what EA Sports did is fairly simple, they took the old D-Pad Concept that PES5 and PES6 used, added more directions into the D-Pad Concept, and branded their "invention" as "360 Dribbling"
In truth, it is not 360 DRIBBLING, it is not dribbling, it is in fact 360 RUNNING; but "360 DRIBBLING" sounds better doesn't it?
It's the very same thing that they did with the player individuality concept that PES5 and PES6 used, it is an outdated concept, yet EA Sports found the way of making it sound like something new: "Personality +"
Sounds better doesn't it?
The left analogue stick and the d-pad are very different controls, the underlying flaw, the root of the problem, is that EA Sports simply transferred the d-pad concept, out of the d-pad and into the left analogue stick. In other words, they are not making good use of the left analogue stick.
This is why the game revolves around running, because the left analogue stick produces running animations at all times with or without the assistance of a sprint button; dribbling, passing, shooting, defending, are all attached to the left analogue stick button.
The left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, and if you minimize the scope of non-running animations which can be implemented into the left analogue stick, you minimize everything.
This is why, if the heartbeat of the video game revolves around RUNNING...
You do not design a defensive system that forces you into actually slowing down and trying to dribble past a defender, because this will expose the fact that it is impossible to actually dribble with the ball at your feet...
Instead, you design a defensive system that allows you to RUN past defenders... and thus hides or minimizes the underlying flaw.
With FIFA11, EA Sports made certain adjustments to the defensive system, and as a result, it exposes the underlying flaw...
Which is why some people do not like the tackling and pressure system, because when you get closed down, you don't see it like something fun or enjoyable...
Instead, you see it like something dull and repetitive because you don't really feel like you can dribble past the defender, it lacks the unpredictable and organic factor because you can already predict when the AI will become super-human and will tackle away, it feels like the defender will end up tackling you and winning the ball; and the right analogue stick dribbling tricks, are too systematic and repetitive to be considered or described as something "enjoyable" and "intuitive"
What EA Sports did with FIFA11, is that the AI now closes you down more quickly... That's the way a Football Sim should play, but the problem with FIFA11 is,
1st -- that it does not has the physics/animations required for such a pressure system, and thus the pressure system exposes the lack of animations where it matters.
2nd -- the defensive system is very INSUBSTANTIAL, it's always pressure, pressure, pressure; that's not how Football works. Yes, in Football there is a lot of pressure, but you need to THINK before you react... in FIFA11 you must react, react, react, without ever THINKING.
Its is an outdated video game with details and gimmicks which are designed to hide the UNDERLYING FLAW... every flaw is a by-product of the underlying flaw.
That said, PES11 is also outdated, and all the flaws in PES11 are a by-product of the very same underlying flaw. The difference in feel, between PES and FIFA, revolves around how they decide to cover up the underlying flaw.
So, it's not like there is something better to play, it's either FIFA11 or PES11, and between these two it's all down to your opinion.
ThaReaper01
02-10-2010, 21:02
I quite liked FIFA 10, but FIFA 11 feels really restrictive. Like I was playing FIFA 09. If you could update kits in FIFA, I'd buy FIFA 10. But I'm gonna go with PES 2011 for PS2. 'Ave it!
Tech_Skill
08-10-2010, 21:22
Right, so I got this game today, now the very first thing that was apparent was that when I strolled into my local store to buy this shit, there were only 3 copies left on Xbox, so, somebody, somewhere is buying this stuff, this is the 1st time ive got PES on official release day since PES08 btw.
Konami hates Xbox users, seriously, I remember back in the day when I had PES5 on PS2 and my mate used to have it on Xbox, I swear the xbox version had some toned down editing mode and plus, I had a world class option file, and he had Middlebrook, west midlands village and all that shit. Now, since its okay for me to laugh at others less fortunate than myself...... i had a good fucking laugh at his expense, well fuck me, now he has PS3, and I have xbox 360........the joke is on me.
Why in the fuck can I not upload chants? Its bad enough not being able to get the WENB option file, (which these days is just about the only fucking reason for typing that shit website in firefox), fair enough I said, Daymos is making one for the Xbox so fuck it, at least I have something, I downloaded bunch of chant packs, 1st thing to I tried to was upload some barca/real chants........FUCK ALL. Konami need to wise the fuck up, I thought Xbox was the most popular console out there right now, so why the fuck are 360 users treated like lepers, its a joke, you would think I have an Atari Jaguar or some shit console that 3 people on earth own.
The AI in this game sucks ass, seriously, Defensively its fucking nasty, this is down to the response times being so late and im talking late as hell for a video game. Press the pass button, and about a second later, the ball gets passed, press shoot, the cunt takes a first touch, its fucking not nice and needs sorting for PES 2012. The through balls are laser guided at times, when I do one, ive seen the CPU ai player stop himself intercepting it just to let the pass get to the attacker, there is also an issue with the tackling, as i can stroll through the odd player without him making a challenge and the cpu AI can do the same thing, there is a reason for this ill touch on maybe another time, it has a good effect when attacking and a shit effect when defending.
CPU AI cheats on top player, I won like 8/10 on top player, but I did switch off the damn game at one stage because the goals I was conceding were INSANE, like my defender taking a 1st touch infont of goal and the ball going in, the CPU will look to shot and then the rebound will fall perfectly for one of the CPU attackers, just like in PES08.
The one good thing I will say about this game is this....when you play with Real Madrid, they dont play the same as Barcelona, for me, I notice a clear difference, Also, C Ronaldo and Messi are both 98's in stats, but they are different players, Messi can go plast players without tricks, in this game, I dont think you can play the same way with ronaldo, because he takes much heavier touches, what ronaldo's strength is.....is his tricks, if you take a guy on and fuck with the trick stick, the Ronaldo can kill that defender. It's interesting, I'll keep an eye on it.
PS. Goalkeepers suck ass too, I scored a disgusting 30 yard free kick with Ronaldo but the keeper should have done more. Wish I could upload that shit, was a decent freekick man.
The jury is out on this one...
PS Higuian is dirty in this game, I scored like 9/10 in about 10 games with this guy.
It's a video game for god's sake what more do you want...
Tbh, as far as i see it, it can only get improvements on the installment.
So sit tight, play and wait for the next installment.
Tech_Skill
08-10-2010, 22:09
It's a video game for god's sake what more do you want....
When I press shoot, i'd like the attacker to shoot and not take a 1st touch, that would be nice.
Would be nice for the defender to tackle when i press the tackle button too.
Would be even nicer if the CPU/my defenders didnt stop when a though-ball is put in.
You thinks thats asking too much here?
Would be nice if the auto/semi switching actually worked also.
I love Tech_Skill's rants.:D
James_dean
08-10-2010, 23:10
The goalkeepers need to be fixed as they seem to score own goals, saving a shot and then kicking the ball accidentally into their own net.
It´s obvious that this game was rushed out on the market to compete with Fifa and really needs a good patch to finish the product.
In the end I quite happy with the game.
Tech_Skill
08-10-2010, 23:14
The goalkeepers need to be fixed as they seem to score own goals, saving a shot and then kicking the ball accidentally into their own net.
It´s obvious that this game was rushed out on the market to compete with Fifa and really needs a good patch to finish the product.
In the end I quite happy with the game.
Im gonna try and stick with it and see what happens, I really hate conceding goals, especially goals which are hardly my own fault, but hey, I just want a decent game..... There are 3 three things in this world which really piss me off.
1) Shit football games
2) X factor/American Idol and all that shit
3) Other people living and breathing.
Other than that, i'm pretty relaxed.
The defensive system in PES11 is broken, and in FIFA11 is also broken, in fact, all the football sims that I have played in my life-time have a broken defensive system...
The fact that you literally control the off-the-ball runs of all the players via the left analogue stick.... is impractical, incompetent, redundant, and is the reason for why the defensive system is ALWAYS broken.
In my opinion, I don't think it's a matter of response times; I mean, response times do matter, but PES5 and PES6 were responsive... yet the defensive system was broken.
This is all down to the fact that Konami uses the left analogue stick like a d-pad, but a d-pad with more directions... and that does not works very well, the d-pad and the left analogue stick are very different buttons and should revolve around different concepts.
When you use the left analogue stick and the left analogue stick revolves around an outdated d-pad concept; you get PES10, FIFA10, PES11, FIFA11.
It's a video game for god's sake what more do you want...
I am aware of the fact, and I'm also aware of the fact that I pay good money for PES and therefore have a right to voice disappointment; there's a difference between pointless moaning and pointless praising, and constructive criticism with an actual purpose.
I don't expect much from video games, but at least I expect Konami and EA Sports to make fucking proper use of the left analogue stick....
IT'S BORING, UNRESPONSIVE, ONE-DIMENSIONAL, when I want to dribble with the ball... And you know why this is? Because it's actually, literally, impossible to dribble with the ball... It just lacks a lot of excitement and substance when dribbling with the ball, it's PES5 with more directions... in year 2010.
Like FIFA10 and PES10, the overall product is fun to play, but the one-versus-one area is outdated and boring; and for a good reason, Konami and EA Sports are making inadequate use of the left analogue stick.
And both companies are covering up the fact with cheap details like the right analogue dribbling tricks... Honestly, how many of them tricks are used in real-life on a consistent basis?
After two or three weeks of playing the game, I will mention the areas that I think have improved the most, because I have no problems praising a good video game; however, when you see the same concept that was used in games like PES5 and PES6, there's just no way around that.
For all the positives that PES11 offers, the number one priority for PES12 should be:
* change the way the left analogue stick works... make better use of the left analogue stick.
* get rid of the d-pad roots which are responsible for the unresponsive or sluggish feel of the game, get rid of the d-pad roots which are still apparent in PES11 and FIFA11.
* and after doing that, fix the damn man-marking system... seriously, it is year 2010 and I can barely tell the difference between PES5 and PES11 or FIFA11: running and crashing into the ball carrier, resulting in never-ending spot-kicks due to the lack of non-running physics/animations.
Hello Clitty
09-10-2010, 01:06
I like the points being raised, but how would you use the left stick? I've been playing football games since the early 90s and many things are still the same. The AI has always cheated, defending has always been difficult, keepers spotty, the controls unnecessarily difficult. I think there needs to be a revolution, wipe the slate clean and think outside the box. Which reminds me, is the Wii version something in the right direction? I've never played it.
He got banned but the thread still stands, lawl, that's funny.
With all the swearing, he reminds me of the Angry Video Game Nerd :D
When I press shoot, i'd like the attacker to shoot and not take a 1st touch, that would be nice.
Would be nice for the defender to tackle when i press the tackle button too.
Would be even nicer if the CPU/my defenders didnt stop when a though-ball is put in.
You thinks thats asking too much here?
Would be nice if the auto/semi switching actually worked also.
:faceplm:
Tech_Skill
09-10-2010, 12:15
He got banned but the thread still stands, lawl, that's funny.
With all the swearing, he reminds me of the Angry Video Game Nerd :D
Still here motherfucker, you remind me of Stevie Wonder cos you must have been blind as fuck to miss the other 50 posts I made in this thread, which I couldn't have made if i was banned now was I. "Lawl oh boys thats so funny" :rolleyes:
I might be a nerd, but I'm actually a good looking nerd, don't let this Nerd around your chick, once she sees something bigger than your 5 inch maggot, she'll have mixed race kids popping out her pussy like you wouldn't believe.....and you'll be paying for em so whose the fucking nerd now :laugh:
--------------------------------------------------------------
NOW...................
Here is something I wanted to speak about today.
VIDEOS, in light of what we have seen from BOTH games, do you think is fair to make CERTAIN judgments on a game from the Video? I would say and that aspects of the games played out as i expected from the videos (particularly the fifa11 game), which i intially thought was very similar to the other iterations, it was also clear as day from the videos that the ''pro passing'' was dodgy as hell and that it was still possible to ping pong about (although it was clear it was alot less easier)
I think certain videos can tell you some important details about the gameplay. Or do people subscribe to the you cannot judge stuff on videos other than Graphics?
What do you all think?
You can take certain points from a video but not much.
Speed being one of the things you cannot take, because the video will suffer from framerate issues so it'll make the game appaear either faster or slower.
But you can get a general idea of the game.
But then again, a video won't get you the feeling of being in the game and this is a very important aspect in a football game.
So I still think that although you can get a general idea of the gameplay, you can't quite experience it so it's not 100% fair to judge it from a video.
But as I said, you can get a general idea.
In my opinion a demo is way better to base the game on.
Tech_Skill
09-10-2010, 13:39
You can take certain points from a video but not much.
Speed being one of the things you cannot take, because the video will suffer from framerate issues so it'll make the game appaear either faster or slower.
But you can get a general idea of the game.
But then again, a video won't get you the feeling of being in the game and this is a very important aspect in a football game.
So I still think that although you can get a general idea of the gameplay, you can't quite experience it so it's not 100% fair to judge it from a video.
But as I said, you can get a general idea.
In my opinion a demo is way better to base the game on.
For sure, but what im getting at here, Is that I think its possible for some people to make some good assumptions on the gameplay based on the videos. When i saw fifa 11 videos it became obvious to me that the pro passing wasnt what EA were making it out to be, ''Pro Passing'' tends to affect WEIGHT of the pass, as in if you try a 1st time pass with a shit passer, the ball will be played at a slower pace which in tight areas allows the opposition to get a hold of it.
What EA made out in their promotion of pro passing mixed with Personality + was that poor passers would see a varying DIRECTION on their passes, aka, the passes would go into the wrong directions quite frequently as well as being over or underhit, When I watched the videos of the gameplay, this was clearly not apparent, passes made by lower skill players seems to be on target, but underhit with little variation in direction.
So those videos helped me make a judgement call on the pro passing, which was backed up when I played the demo.
Sometimes I find videos quite useful actually.
Sabatasso
09-10-2010, 13:47
Because it's actually, literally, impossible to dribble with the ball... It just lacks a lot of excitement and substance when dribbling with the ball, it's PES5 with more directions... in year 2010.
Ten thumbs or something? Dribbling in pes2011 is easier than ever before!
It also looks good and feels right.
Pitch length solo runs is quite hard on Top Player though, if that's what you're after then I may suggest FIFA 2000 or something...
NOW...................
Here is something I wanted to speak about today.
VIDEOS, in light of what we have seen from BOTH games, do you think is fair to make CERTAIN judgments on a game from the Video? I would say and that aspects of the games played out as i expected from the videos (particularly the fifa11 game), which i intially thought was very similar to the other iterations, it was also clear as day from the videos that the ''pro passing'' was dodgy as hell and that it was still possible to ping pong about (although it was clear it was alot less easier)
I think certain videos can tell you some important details about the gameplay. Or do people subscribe to the you cannot judge stuff on videos other than Graphics?
What do you all think?
You most certainly CAN judge a Football Sim without playing the game, because a VIDEO will suffice.
A VIDEO will tell you what the left analogue stick can do and what the left analogue stick cannot do; that alone, is enough to judge the final product.
A VIDEO will also show you how EA Sports and Konami have decided to hide the underlying flaw; the underlying flaw being the fact that you cannot actually dribble with the ball.
Of course a VIDEO will not give you a proper feel of the game; but personally, I do not look at VIDEOS and think about how the game feels, I just pay attention to the general things: how does the left analogue stick works...
That's the bottom line for me, how does the left analogue stick works... Oh, I have seen it in the VIDEO, it still functions like a d-pad; oh well... I guess I should expect a broken defensive system yet again.
From that point onwards, it's not hard to imagine how the game will feel, it will feel like a video game that is still restricted by the d-pad button.
Considering the fact that all the football sims that I have played in my life-time, are restricted by the d-pad button; then no, it is not hard to imagine how the game will feel when I can see, in the VIDEO, that it still is restricted by the d-pad button.
So yeah, I do think a VIDEO is very objective and relevant. Comparing VIDEOS of PES11 or FIFA11 with VIDEOS of real football, is a great way of knowing or learning, informing yourself, about where the game is failing.
Ten thumbs or something? Dribbling in pes2011 is easier than ever before!
It also looks good and feels right.
Pitch length solo runs is quite hard on Top Player though, if that's what you're after then I may suggest FIFA 2000 or something...
I suggest you learn how to read before saying stupid things like you just did,
Did you not understand the parts where I said that it is impossible to dribble with the ball?
Dribbling in pes2011 is easier than ever before!
The fact that you started your second phrase by suggesting that DRIBBLING is possible................. and that it is easier than ever before....... tells me four things,
1st -- you did not bothered reading what I had to say, and you have no intention of at least trying to understand what I had to say; you just want to make fun of my argument.
2nd -- you do not respect me, you think I am deluded.
3rd -- you don't know shit about the game that you are playing, you are a fan boy who should not be taken seriously by anyone who isn't a fan boy; end of.
4th -- you think that making it easier is something positive... how is making an automatic and restrictive system easier than it already was... something positive? again, it just highlights what a massive fan boy you are.
Pitch length solo runs is quite hard on Top Player though, if that's what you're after then I may suggest FIFA 2000 or something...
I am complaining about the over-abundance of RUNNING ANIMATIONS, I am complaining about the non-existence of NON-RUNNING ANIMATIONS....
I want the left analogue stick to function like an analogue stick, instead of being restricted by the limitations of the d-pad.
And your response to my argument, is that I should go and play FIFA 2000? Really?
I am complaining about the restrictions of the d-pad button, and you tell me to go and play a video game that revolves around the d-pad?
Did you even bothered reading and understanding what I had to say... before actually questioning what I had to say? Do you even think before you talk?
Why do you even bother responding to me when you do not respect me nor have any interest in understanding what I am saying?
Actually, you don't have to answer my questions... and you don't have to read my comments... just stay the fuck away when you see one of my long essays, and you won't have anything to complain about.
No, doesn't happen in my game (PC). Might be a console problem, and if it is, it serves you right for supporting the ever declining quality of games in general by buying and supporting console game industry. Games have never been shallower since the production of these abominations started. :P
It's funny how you disapprove about shallowness and superficiality, and yet your comments are always shallow and superficial....
I wonder why so much people finance and support the console game industry; maybe, just maybe, just like you did not bothered reading and thinking before you talked to me... maybe a lot of people do not like to think when they play PES or FIFA. Could that be possible?
Which explains why it is impossible to dribble with the ball, because instead of thinking about your intentions and thinking about how you disguise your intentions; in PES11 and FIFA11 your intentions are always in action...
And thus, you cannot actually think about how you disguise your intentions because it is in fact impossible to disguise intentions that are already in motion: it is easier than ever before! it's so automatic and restrictive that you don't even need to think when you dribble past 3 defenders! great!
Yeah, I think you support the production of shallow video games, and I think the vast majority of fans support the production of shallow video games; which is why the console gaming industry exists, because we pay for it, and we ask for it.
If it makes you feel better about yourself as a gamer or as a person, yes I agree with you, I am deluded, I should go play FIFA 2000; thank you for your valuable suggestion.
Now you can (hopefully) go away, knowing that you are right and I am wrong; which is what you wanted to hear... you have succeeded in wasting my time, congrats.
Sabatasso
09-10-2010, 18:30
Double.. lag sry.
Sabatasso
09-10-2010, 18:31
Yet another incredibly long post
You obviously don't like me, I have no problem with that because I don't really like you either for some reason. Now that that's out in the open, let's skip to the actual reply. I choose to ignore the fact that you tried to ridicule me, and instead notify you that you obviously don't understand sarcasm.
My opinions are not less worth than yours just because I don't use a million words to describe them, I tend to believe that readers have a few braincells too and don't feel the need to over explain everything. You may call that shallow...
You say this and that is broken in PES 2011, I say it's working but could be better.
You say there's no dribbling with the ball in PES2011, I say it is, but it's not effective compared to gambeta, and the feints work in all directions too.
Now, just because I try to make a funny remark out of one of your quotes does not mean I am out to get you in any way, the sooner you realize that the better.
James_dean
09-10-2010, 18:40
You obviously don't like me, I have no problem with that because I don't really like you either for some reason. Now that that's out in the open, let's skip to the actual reply. I choose to ignore the fact that you tried to ridicule me, and instead notify you that you obviously don't understand sarcasm.
My opinions are not less worth than yours just because I don't use a million words to describe them, I tend to believe that readers have a few braincells too and don't feel the need to over explain everything. You may call that shallow...
You say this and that is broken in PES 2011, I say it's working but could be better.
You say there's no dribbling with the ball in PES2011, I say it is, but it's not effective compared to gambeta, and the feints work in all directions too.
Now, just because I try to make a funny remark out of one of your quotes does not mean I am out to get you in any way, the sooner you realize that the better.
With all the different animals in the forest we could all be friends
Ok,
So I read the following thing about PES11, it reads,
"the addition of 1000 all-new animations has greatly increased the number of ball touches during dribbling. Using the D-pad to adjust timing and power makes it possible to change the distance of ball touches and the speed of pullbacks."
You can read the full explanation here: http://www.pes2011.com/en/index.html
I think it sounds interesting, but I am confused about what it means: do they mean that you can adjust timing and power with the left analogue stick AND the d-pad? Or is it something that you can ONLY do with the d-pad?
You obviously don't like me, I have no problem with that because I don't really like you either for some reason. Now that that's out in the open, let's skip to the actual reply. I choose to ignore the fact that you tried to ridicule me, and instead notify you that you obviously don't understand sarcasm.
I have no reason to like or dislike you, I don't know you; however, whenever you talk about me or whenever you respond to me... it is always with the same sarcastic tone.
If you used that tone 5 times out of 10... that would be cool... but no, you ALWAYS use the same tone when you mention my name or respond to me directly.
I do not like that. You do not see me responding to your comments do you? You know why? Because I don't give a shit about your opinion regarding the overall product.
I would appreciate if you could share your opinion regarding the FACT that I have discussed; but that's it, I do not care about whatever it is you think about PES11 as a whole.
I am talking about a very specific fact: the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is restricted by the D-PAD CONCEPT that was used in PES5 and PES6.
What is your opinion regarding the mentioned FACT? How would you fix it? Why do you think it has not been fixed yet?
That's all I wanted to hear; but when you quote me.... and you are under the impression that what I claim to be a FACT, is just my OPINION....
I do take that as an insult; I guess you disagree with the fact; cool. By the way, I do understand sarcasm, it is not my fault that you do not know how and when to use it.
My opinions are not less worth than yours just because I don't use a million words to describe them, I tend to believe that readers have a few braincells too and don't feel the need to over explain everything. You may call that shallow...
Like I already mentioned, I am talking about a FACT, I am not talking about my opinion.
In my opinion, I still enjoy playing PES10.... that doesn't changes the FACT that it is impossible to dribble in PES10 and FIFA10 and PES11 and FIFA11.
I fully respect the opinion of someone who thinks that FIFA10 is better than PES10; or that PES10 is better than FIFA10.
When you talk about opinions... Opinions are very interesting if we are talking about politics or music or history or something complicated; but PES is not complicated...
As far as opinions go regarding PES, you have three options: I agree, I disagree, I don't give a shit, there is nothing left to discuss... because it is an opinion.
I have no interest in doing that, at least not at the moment, and not until I have PES11 for at least three weeks.
So I reiterate my intention, I am talking about a FACT... and you cannot really disagree or agree with a fact, the fact exists whether you like it or not.
I consider you shallow and lazy (as a gamer and consumer) because that's what your words reflect, if you changed the way you express yourself in paper, then my opinion about you would also change; you talk about OPINIONS... And hey, no OPINION is above another OPINION, even more so when talking about such a simple thing as PES or FIFA.
But I am talking about a simple FACT, and if you actually bothered reading, you would have known this by now.
I honestly don't care about your opinion regarding PES11, I never asked your opinion about the game as a whole; what I wanted to hear, is your opinion regarding this fact that I have explained...
And you respond by saying that you can DRIBBLE with the ball.... I take it that you do not agree with the fact.
You say this and that is broken in PES 2011, I say it's working but could be better.
You say there's no dribbling with the ball in PES2011, I say it is, but it's not effective compared to gambeta, and the feints work in all directions too.
And I say, YOU are wrong and I am right.
You think it works, you are under the delusion that you can dribble; FACT remains that you cannot... but if you do not know what dribbling is...
You don't understand the argument, you do not understand the difference between RUNNING with the ball and DRIBBLING with the ball.
You do not understand the repercussions that come hand in hand with the FACT that you can cover spaces of over 100 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button.
In other words, you can RUN without the assistance if a SPRINT button... that's a serious problem, that's not a bug, and it's been there since day one; it is a d-pad restriction, it is not an analogue restriction.
You cannot DRIBBLE in PES nor in FIFA, you can do TRICKS and you can RUN past defenders; yes it is working in some way or the other... but PES10 also worked, and PES5 also worked... it does not changes the fact that the defensive system is broken because you CANNOT do any manual dribbling and man-marking.
You CAN manually RUN, but you CANNOT manually DRIBBLE nor MAN-MARK... There's a big difference between ACCELERATING or RUNNING with the ball and actually DRIBBLING with the ball.
If you do not know where the key difference lies and why it is such a big deal, then it will not bother you as much; your opinion... not mine.
Now, just because I try to make a funny remark out of one of your quotes does not mean I am out to get you in any way, the sooner you realize that the better.
Yeah, do you really think I waste my time worrying about you or someone else trying to get me?
I am talking about a simple FACT here, nothing less and nothing more; you are the person who is under the delusion that, what I claim is a FACT, is really my opinion. I just think you have a condescending attitude.
If you can only come up with funny remarks and sarcasm, but your comments never have any real content in them; then you should know that I am not interested...
My comments, or at least my intention, is to encourage constructive criticism REGARDING a fact... I am not interested in CENSORSHIP dressed up with the word "funny" or "sarcastic".
And I ask, why do you continue mentioning my name or quoting me when I have done nothing to you?
If you have nothing good to say about the actual argument, then why even bother mentioning my name or even responding to me? You are wasting your time, as well as mine.
And by the way, the long essays, over-explaining things, is not an act, I am not trying to lecture anyone, this is how I express myself when I want to explain a fact: I like to be clear about it, and I like to cover the same thing at least twice, so there is no confusion.
I am not telling you that your opinion is stupid nor am I questioning your opinion, and if it sounded like that at some point, that is not my intention.
PES11 is the most excited I have been about a video game... in the last 3 years at least, because I know it is a good video game.
I'm just not the type of consumer who cares about what your OPINION is regarding SUBJECTIVE matters regarding PES; if you look closely, I have only discussed one simple thing: the way the left analogue stick is employed or used in PES11 and FIFA11.
Sabatasso
10-10-2010, 08:50
You cannot DRIBBLE in PES nor in FIFA, you can do TRICKS and you can RUN past defenders; yes it is working in some way or the other... but PES10 also worked, and PES5 also worked...
Definition of dribble
1. To let flow or fall in drops or an unsteady stream.
2. Sports
a. To move (a ball or puck) by repeated light bounces or kicks, as in basketball or soccer.
b. To hit (a baseball, for example) so that it bounces slowly.
I do understand that you don't think dribbling is possible in PES or FIFA, but that's not a fact, it's still your opinion and I disagree with you but I believe it could be better.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=maradona+ dribble&aq=f
When you say running is not part of dribbling, you are just wrong. Gambeta is a form of dribbling that involves body feints and quick turns while running.
Dribbling is a combination of feints, turns and speed where the goal is to trick your opponent into believing you are going to do something different than what you actually are going to do. That is possible in both FIFA and PES. It's restricted ofcourse, but they are computer games and none of them claim to be a dribbling simulator.
About the analog stick, if they coded it to move slower when barely touched and full speed when moved all the way and possibly pressed in, it would perhaps be better than what we have now. I would prefer body feints being controlled by this stick as well.
But I personally feel that there are more urgent fixes that's needed in PES 2011 than the left stick though, like AI team work and possession keeping for example.
I've managed to improve the general flow of all previous versions of the games through modding, and I intend to do the same this year after I've studied enough AI vs AI games of different teams and find out what the underlying problem is. The obvious ones is that the AI is stupid and use too much time on the ball when attacking.
Facts & opinions, just because you are not able to dribble the way you want, does not make it a fact that you can't dribble in these games, and on top you're saying I don't know what dribbling is... shame on you.
You take your opinion and make it a fact because you think so, but it's still just an opinion.
it does not changes the fact that the defensive system is broken because you CANNOT do any manual dribbling and man-marking.
You can not manually hit the ref in the face either, but you don't see me complaining about it. There is a limit to what one would be able to do, and not to do in a game. Realism in a game is limited, and the most important thing a game can do is to capture the essence of what it's supposed to be and to fake it good.
You say defensive system is broken, I say could be better. And you can do manual man-marking, I do it all the time in BAL and when I play against friends/AI. I mark or cover with the player I control, and pressure the ball using friendly AI players with the button assigned for that. (A)
PS. Let's say you like big tits, and your girl has small tits.. do you tell her that her tits are broken? That her tits aren't tits, but small bumps on her chest where the tits are supposed to be?
Small tits are still tits, just as gambeta is still dribbling. By renaming it to "running with the ball" does not change the fact that it's still dribbling.
Definition of dribble
1. To let flow or fall in drops or an unsteady stream.
2. Sports
a. To move (a ball or puck) by repeated light bounces or kicks, as in basketball or soccer.
b. To hit (a baseball, for example) so that it bounces slowly.
I do understand that you don't think dribbling is possible in PES or FIFA, but that's not a fact, it's still your opinion and I disagree with you but I believe it could be better.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=maradona+ dribble&aq=f
When you say running is not part of dribbling, you are just wrong. Gambeta is a form of dribbling that involves body feints and quick turns while running.
Dribbling is a combination of feints, turns and speed where the goal is to trick your opponent into believing you are going to do something different than what you actually are going to do. That is possible in both FIFA and PES. It's restricted ofcourse, but they are computer games and none of them claim to be a dribbling simulator.
About the analog stick, if they coded it to move slower when barely touched and full speed when moved all the way and possibly pressed in, it would perhaps be better than what we have now. I would prefer body feints being controlled by this stick as well.
But I personally feel that there are more urgent fixes that's needed in PES 2011 than the left stick though, like AI team work and possession keeping for example.
I've managed to improve the general flow of all previous versions of the games through modding, and I intend to do the same this year after I've studied enough AI vs AI games of different teams and find out what the underlying problem is. The obvious ones is that the AI is stupid and use too much time on the ball when attacking.
Facts & opinions, just because you are not able to dribble the way you want, does not make it a fact that you can't dribble in these games, and on top you're saying I don't know what dribbling is... shame on you.
You take your opinion and make it a fact because you think so, but it's still just an opinion.
You say broken, I say could be better.
I do not agree with that definition.
Dribbling is not just ONE thing, DRIBBLING is the sum of many different skills put together. Therefore, your definition is redundant and impractical as far as I'm concerned.
That said, I do think your verdict is almost fair: I say broken, you say could be better.
I would agree with your verdict if you were disagreeing with my opinion, but you are not disgreeing with me, you are disagreeing with a fact.
But I personally feel that there are more urgent fixes that's needed in PES 2011 than the left stick though, like AI team work and possession keeping for example.
I've managed to improve the general flow of all previous versions of the games through modding, and I intend to do the same this year after I've studied enough AI vs AI games of different teams and find out what the underlying problem is. The obvious ones is that the AI is stupid and use too much time on the ball when attacking.
Facts & opinions, just because you are not able to dribble the way you want, does not make it a fact that you can't dribble in these games, and on top you're saying I don't know what dribbling is... shame on you.
You take your opinion and make it a fact because you think so, but it's still just an opinion.
No, not really... it is a FACT, it is not my opinion.
This is my beef with it: in real life, I can place my body inside a 5 foot square, and I can DRIBBLE with the ball WITHOUT moving from the 5 foot square; I can pass the ball from my left foot to my right foot, WITHOUT moving from the 5 foot square.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlwVEhS3DY
In the given link, just pay attention to the time span between (9:43 -- 9:50) you will see a slow but technically gifted player, dribbling with the ball, WITHOUT moving from the space.
The ball carrier gets closed down by two opponents, and no the spot-kick is not awarded at the slightest of contact, instead, a physical battle takes place... the ball carrier passes the ball from his right foot and into his left foot, and after that, he runs away from his opponents.
And when you look at it, when you LOOK at it, it LOOKS exciting and unpredictable... because not only does it looks pretty, but also, the physics are there, it is not an illusion: the physics are there.
You see how the right leg stretches and left leg stretches, and how the ball carrier swiftly passes the ball from his right foot to his left foot; and with a bit of luck, he comes away with the ball.
In PES11, I will never feel the joy and unpredictable nature of DRIBBLING with the ball; because although certain areas do work, we have some very important animations that are currently missing.
In PES11 and FIFA11, dribbling FEELS and LOOKS systematic and predictable.... There is no feel to it, no responsiveness to it, and no substance to it.
I am skilled with the left analogue stick, and I can enjoy video games like PES10 and PES11 and FIFA11; but I would be lying if I did not admitted the lack of feel and excitement when dribbling with the ball...
If you cannot see how the dribbling and man-marking affects the overall package, then you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about; let alone judge my argument as my opinion.
Because in PES11, I can cover spaces of over 100 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button...
This means that you cannot dribble WITHOUT moving from the space, because the left analogue will have you running or jugging, from one 5 foot square into another 5 foot square and the next thing you know... you have covered a space of over 20 feet, when all you wanted was a subtle dribbling skill.
This means that the left analogue stick, not only does it determines the direction in which you run with the ball, but it also determines the distance that you cover; and when this happens, you are limiting the usage of the left analogue stick with a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
And more importantly, it means that you cannot hide your intentions... because your intentions are always in action, your intentions are already in motion; and you cannot hide something that is already materializing before your very eyes.
The right analogue stick will never fix this flaw, because the right analogue stick is not accessible enough to be intricate and precise, and because the right analogue stick does not determines: passing and shooting.
A competent AI and a competent defensive system, would actually make the game very easy and very repetitive; this is why the AI is stupid... it's not by accident.
Shame on me??
Not really... I have only pointed out an obvious flaw: your comments speak for themselves... you have little to no idea about what you are talking about.
I cannot describe it as DRIBBLING because it is not DRIBBLING, why the hell do you think we get so many spot-kicks? Because the game lacks NON-RUNNING dribbling and man-marking animations.
Why do you think the AI is as stupid as you say it is? Because it needs to be stupid... otherwise the game would be more boring to play, easier and exposing the underlying flaw.
I cannot call nor describe it as "DRIBBLING" because it is incomplete; it simply does not FEELS like dribbling, and it does not LOOKS like dribbling.
And by the way, it does not matters whatever YOU or I think dribbling is or should be or shouldn't be; the FACT still is that the left analogue stick is not being used properly, the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
And the D-PAD RESTRICTION is hidden with a broken defensive system and with stupid AI: you are focusing on the by-products... not on the root of the problem.
You think it could be better, I think it's broken: that's your verdict.
This is my verdict: I am right and YOU are wrong, YOU have no idea about what you are talking about, and I cannot take you seriously when you are actually denying a FACT.
I will be honest and say that your argument is utter bullshit, the dribbling and man-marking system is broken, this is why the AI is stupid.
If you want to say that this FACT is my opinion, then so be it, there's nothing else I can say; shot yourself.
Tech_Skill
10-10-2010, 11:40
Yesterday during Master League, I really noticed the affect stamina has on players. Its fucking crazy, if your players are jaded their passing goes way off and they become slow, not just in sprinting, but in Turning ability also. Do you lot save your stamina when you play ML or do you have the players sprinting around everywhere, If keep using sprint, they get tired and attack/defending becomes even more difficult.
Sabatasso
10-10-2010, 12:09
Do yourself a favor, go to YouTube, go and watch Luis Figo, Roman Riquelme, Zinedine Zidane; pay attention to the build-up dribbling that happens just before they actually accelerate past the defenders.
Well, you forgot the best of them all on just that, Maradona. I know what you mean, but I don't think it's possible to implement it in a game that is limited to a console controller, and maintain a mainstream user friendliness. I would certainly love to try a game like that, but I suspect it would be too advanced.
It is broken. It is a fact.
You are approaching this from a real life football point of view, I am approaching from a computer game player point of view.
Have you even played PES2011? Do you use the Special Controls button at all? You may not be able to hide your obvious intentions, scoring a goal, but you are quite able to dribble in small spaces and change direction quickly if your player has high Dribbling and is agile enough.
The fact that you do not understand football as well as I do, does not means that I am wrong and that you are right.
You just made another of your opinions a fact, again, just because you think so does not make it a fact.
I feel that you are approaching from the wrong angle. You are looking for limitations in a computer game, I look for the possibilities. And to be honest with you, with your attitude towards the game, I have a hard time believing you find ANY computer game entertaining.
Sabatasso
10-10-2010, 12:10
Do yourself a favor, go to YouTube, go and watch Luis Figo, Roman Riquelme, Zinedine Zidane; pay attention to the build-up dribbling that happens just before they actually accelerate past the defenders.
Well, you forgot the best of them all on just that, Maradona. I know what you mean, but I don't think it's possible to implement it in a game that is limited to a console controller, and maintain a mainstream user friendliness. I would certainly love to try a game like that, but I suspect it would be too advanced.
It is broken. It is a fact.
You are approaching this from a real life football point of view, I am approaching from a computer game player point of view.
Have you even played PES2011? Do you use the Special Controls button at all? You may not be able to hide your obvious intentions, scoring a goal, but you are quite able to dribble in small spaces and change direction quickly if your player has high Dribbling and is agile enough.
The fact that you do not understand football as well as I do, does not means that I am wrong and that you are right.
You just made another of your opinions a fact, again, just because you think so does not make it a fact.
I feel that you are approaching from the wrong angle. You are looking for limitations in a computer game, I look for the possibilities. And to be honest with you, with your attitude towards the game, I have a hard time believing you find ANY computer game entertaining.
Well, you forgot the best of them all on just that, Maradona. I know what you mean, but I don't think it's possible to implement it in a game that is limited to a console controller, and maintain a mainstream user friendliness. I would certainly love to try a game like that, but I suspect it would be too advanced.
You are approaching this from a real life football point of view, I am approaching from a computer game player point of view.
Have you even played PES2011? Do you use the Special Controls button at all? You may not be able to hide your obvious intentions, scoring a goal, but you are quite able to dribble in small spaces and change direction quickly if your player has high Dribbling and is agile enough.
You just made another of your opinions a fact, again, just because you think so does not make it a fact.
I feel that you are approaching from the wrong angle. You are looking for limitations in a computer game, I look for the possibilities. And to be honest with you, with your attitude towards the game, I have a hard time believing you find ANY computer game entertaining.
Dude read it again, a completely changed what I initially said... your post was decent and would have been a good one had you not contradicted yourself right at the end of it.
But the way it started and the way it ended, made me think that I should not read through all your bullshit; but surprisingly, the middle parts are quite good.
The definition impractical and redundant, and at the end you contradict yourself: and you are focusing on the by-products... which again, highlights the fact that you don't seem to understand why the trivial flaws such as stupid AI exist.
Back in PES5 and PES6 the AI was not as stupid... Do you think the AI in PES11 is stupid by accident?
Anyways, I think your verdict is fair: you think it could be better, I think it is broken.
Different opinions REGARDING the same FACT: the left analogue stick is restricted by a d-pad restriction... the d-pad restriction is the root of the problem and the reason for why the AI is stupid.
James_dean
10-10-2010, 13:33
Yesterday during Master League, I really noticed the affect stamina has on players. Its fucking crazy, if your players are jaded their passing goes way off and they become slow, not just in sprinting, but in Turning ability also. Do you lot save your stamina when you play ML or do you have the players sprinting around everywhere, If keep using sprint, they get tired and attack/defending becomes even more difficult.
I did notice it too. We can argue if it is realistic or not which I´m not going to do cause it´s a video game but in my opinion it is somehow like the real thing. It just gives the game more dept, not being able to pick your best eleven game after game and being forced to invest in players that are not necessarily star players but good team players.
Stamina is a crucial thing.
I did notice it too. We can argue if it is realistic or not which I´m not going to do cause it´s a video game but in my opinion it is somehow like the real thing. It just gives the game more dept, not being able to pick your best eleven game after game and being forced to invest in players that are not necessarily star players but good team players.
Stamina is a crucial thing.
Don't take this the wrong way, but, you have repeated that same remark about "we can argue if it is realistic or not which I´m not going to do cause it´s a video game"
You can say that a million times, yet the fact remains that Konami DOES looks at REAL FOOTBALL when they work on PES; and also, it is a Football SIMULATION...
I mean, what does SIMULATION stands for?
I think the word says it all, and in my opinion, it makes perfect sense to compare a video game with real life; because PES is a SIMULATION...
If it was an arcade game designed for 8 year old kids, then yeah, I would think it is stupid to compare it with real life. But to say that PES11 should not be compare with the real thing; in my opinion, is CENSORSHIP from your part, and it contributes to nothing really.
Again, don't take it the wrong way... it's just that in my opinion, I don't see why we should not compare a SIMULATION game with the thing that is supposed to simulate.
James_dean
10-10-2010, 17:11
Don't take this the wrong way, but, you have repeated that same remark about "we can argue if it is realistic or not which I´m not going to do cause it´s a video game"
You can say that a million times, yet the fact remains that Konami DOES looks at REAL FOOTBALL when they work on PES; and also, it is a Football SIMULATION...
I mean, what does SIMULATION stands for?
I think the word says it all, and in my opinion, it makes perfect sense to compare a video game with real life; because PES is a SIMULATION...
If it was an arcade game designed for 8 year old kids, then yeah, I would think it is stupid to compare it with real life. But to say that PES11 should not be compare with the real thing; in my opinion, is CENSORSHIP from your part, and it contributes to nothing really.
Again, don't take it the wrong way... it's just that in my opinion, I don't see why we should not compare a SIMULATION game with the thing that is supposed to simulate.
When did I say Pes11 should not be compared with the real thing?
The first post was epic, but I'm afraid I can't be bothered to read the rest of this thread.
I honestly can't believe you're all still wasting your time with this shit.
Sure, it's a nice passtime, but still. It benefits Konami and EA.
I think we would all be doing ourselves a service by just making one thread and just saying things like 'it's okay, but still shit'.
They're all corporate scumbags. Making money out of us is their job.
They're in it for the money, not the love for the game.
They're never gonna hire any outsider, and people that are saying nice things about them are either on the payroll or easily pleased tools without better things to do, no offense intended.
These companies know perfectly well what must be done to make a proper game, but they won't. They make small changes and small progress, because they know full well that we will end up buying them anyway. It's called marketing, and it works. It always does.
It's like Coke and Pepsi. They will make money either way and, you know what, they love the rivalry.
I gave up criticizing these lowlifes ages ago. It's useless, and beneficial to them in all the wrong ways, because they then know precisely what to focus on and what not to improve or remove, whilst knowing the exact percentage of proper fans that they will anger or please with those tweaks.
The first post was epic, but I'm afraid I can't be bothered to read the rest of this thread.
I honestly can't believe you're all still wasting your time with this shit.
Sure, it's a nice passtime, but still. It benefits Konami and EA.
I think we would all be doing ourselves a service by just making one thread and just saying things like 'it's okay, but still shit'.
They're all corporate scumbags. Making money out of us is their job.
They're in it for the money, not the love for the game.
They're never gonna hire any outsider, and people that are saying nice things about them are either on the payroll or easily pleased tools without better things to do, no offense intended.
These companies know perfectly well what must be done to make a proper game, but they won't. They make small changes and small progress, because they know full well that we will end up buying them anyway. It's called marketing, and it works. It always does.
It's like Coke and Pepsi. They will make money either way and, you know what, they love the rivalry.
I gave up criticizing these lowlifes ages ago. It's useless, and beneficial to them in all the wrong ways, because they then know precisely what to focus on and what not to improve or remove, whilst knowing the exact percentage of proper fans that they will anger or please with those tweaks.
best post i've ever read on here.
Makavelian
10-10-2010, 22:08
is anyone else experiencing the appalling reaction times from you're defenders when the goaly parrys the bal back out ,like very unresponsive. The amount of goals like this that ive conceded in the master league like this is a joke. Goalkeepers are a total shambles!! Also the grandad dribbling after about 60 minutes because the players lose stamina so quick wtf
edit - howtf do you read a scout report? : /
http://cdn1.gamepro.com/blogfaction/images/Ladyluck%20images/Gamer%20Rant2.jpg
Tech_Skill
10-10-2010, 22:45
edit - howtf do you read a scout report? : /
is anyone else experiencing the appalling reaction times
When you go to topics to receive the news of the scout report, click on the topic which takes you to the players profile, then use L1/LB (ps3/xbox) to scroll through the player profile pages, i think its the last page in the player profile after the stats and all that shit which contains the scouting report.
Reaction times are an abortion, I was talking about them in other thread, and some next guy tried to tell me they were 'spot on'.
I'm begging to lose my fucking patience with forums in General, bunch of fucking pussies who need babysitting, the official Fifa forums are the fucking pits, fucking fetuses everywhere trying to tell people how football games work and I was playing the damn things when they was a semen trickle out they mothers pussyhole.
Reaction times are disgusting, Amateur this is why I don't fuck with your posts much at the moment, all I fucking read about is the left analogue stick, before they fuck with them sticks, they can sort the reaction times and make it so that defenders don't stand still and let through balls go past em, aka, Konami need to learn how to walk before they can run, that's my opinion on that, don't bother with the 100 page response cos I'll print that shit out and save it for toilet paper. No offence, just letting you know that, seeing as everytime I come in this thread im seeing 50 pages of talk about running dribble, standing dribble, spastic's dribble, I'd rather make my cock dribble than have to keep seeing that shit all day.
When did I say Pes11 should not be compared with the real thing?
After repeating the same thing a couple of times, that's what I understood; that it is a video game, it's not real life.
You never actually said that PES11 should not be compared with the real thing; but to me it sounded more or less like you were saying that.
The first post was epic, but I'm afraid I can't be bothered to read the rest of this thread.
I honestly can't believe you're all still wasting your time with this shit.
Sure, it's a nice passtime, but still. It benefits Konami and EA.
I think we would all be doing ourselves a service by just making one thread and just saying things like 'it's okay, but still shit'.
They're all corporate scumbags. Making money out of us is their job.
They're in it for the money, not the love for the game.
They're never gonna hire any outsider, and people that are saying nice things about them are either on the payroll or easily pleased tools without better things to do, no offense intended.
These companies know perfectly well what must be done to make a proper game, but they won't. They make small changes and small progress, because they know full well that we will end up buying them anyway. It's called marketing, and it works. It always does.
It's like Coke and Pepsi. They will make money either way and, you know what, they love the rivalry.
I gave up criticizing these lowlifes ages ago. It's useless, and beneficial to them in all the wrong ways, because they then know precisely what to focus on and what not to improve or remove, whilst knowing the exact percentage of proper fans that they will anger or please with those tweaks.
Fully agree,
I am aware of that, and to be honest I don't give a shit about Konami, what I would really like to see is a general consensus amongst the fans.
The vast majority of fans criticize a flaw and then give a suggestion that will actually make the game worst; because the "flaw" that they just criticized exists because it is employed to hide the underlying flaw.
Regardless of whatever Konami decides to do, I think we fans have the capability of agreeing on general FACTS.
But it remains a thought... because there always seems to be a fan who thinks that, what I claim is a FACT, is really my opinion.
I don't really like to spend my time talking about what I think about PES11, because it's my opinion, and in m opinion I still enjoy playing PES10 even though I know it is a shit video game.
I prefer to talk about a general FACT in the game, and see what the fellow gamers think about that specific FACT; but of course, there is always that smart guy.... who goes and says that, what you claim is a FACT, is actually your opinion.
And that is stupid and redundant. Yes there are opinions, and I fully respect opinions regarding subjective matters; however, when in your opinion you do not agree with a FACT... that's the part were I cannot take you seriously.
And unfortunately, the vast majority of fans disagree with a FACT and ignore the FACT: the AI is stupid, the lack of attacking runs, Konami are morons, the game is not fluid enough, etc, etc.
All by-products of the root of the problem. You cannot have a healthy conversation with a fellow consumer anymore, because they cannot tell the difference between a FACT and an OPINION.
It's sad really, we encourage CENSORSHIP and dressed up with the words "funny" or "sarcastic" or "it's only a video game".
Our discussions should not be limited by Konami, but unfortunately, that is the reality: the fans cannot see past the product... and the fans will insult you if you tell them how redundant their suggestions always are.
Here is one of the most popular complains,
Stupid AI: the AI is stupid, it need to be faster and smarter like back in PES5, and it should have a button to trigger attacking runs like in FIFA.
Would SMART AND RESPONSIVE OFF-THE-BALL RUNS make a DUMB game any SMARTER?
Not really, it will actually make it more predictable and more systematic and more repetitive; hence the reason for why FIFA is so predictable and so repetitive...
FIFA has msarter and more responsive off-the-ball runs: this is why it is so easy to conjure one-on-one vs the GK situations, this is one of the key reasons for why FIFA has not depth.
Making the OFF-THE-BALL RUNS smarter and more responsive, will not make the GAMEPLAY CONCEPT any smarter... the vast majority of fans seem incapable of understanding this.
It still is a DUMB CONCEPT with SMART AND RESPONSIVE OFF-THE-BALL MOVEMENT, and when the concept is dumb and the off-the-ball movement is smart... you get FIFA10 and FIFA11.
SMART AND RESPONSIVE OFF-THE-BALL MOVEMENT does not guarantee you a SMART AND RESPONSIVE VIDEO GAME.
Konami avoids the repetitiveness by giving you STUPID AI and sluggish and unresponsive off-the-ball movement.
The stupid AI of PES and the one-versus-one situations in FIFA, are different by-products of the very same flaw: the left analogue stick is limited by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
But of course, someone will come and say that this is just my opinion... because he happens to disagree with the FACT that I have discussed.
You cannot have a healthy conversation with a fellow consumer anymore, because they cannot tell the difference between a FACT and an OPINION.
Reaction times are disgusting, Amateur this is why I don't fuck with your posts much at the moment, all I fucking read about is the left analogue stick, before they fuck with them sticks, they can sort the reaction times and make it so that defenders don't stand still and let through balls go past em, aka, Konami need to learn how to walk before they can run, that's my opinion on that, don't bother with the 100 page response cos I'll print that shit out and save it for toilet paper. No offence, just letting you know that, seeing as everytime I come in this thread im seeing 50 pages of talk about running dribble, standing dribble, spastic's dribble, I'd rather make my cock dribble than have to keep seeing that shit all day.
Yeah I agree about the 50 pages of dribbling babble, I should stop doing that.
What you don't seem to understand is that RESPONSE TIMES will never be fixed if the left analogue stick is limited by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
You can repeat and repeat your discontent with the response times... it will never be fixed if the left analogue stick is employed like a 360-axis d-pad; FACT, this is why, since FIFA08 to FIFA11, the response times are still not as responsive as they should feel.
This is why, if the left analogue stick still works like a 36-axis d-pad, FIFA12 and PES12 will also have responsive issues.
If Konami continues using the left analogue stick like a 360-axis d-pad: you will notice how PES10 and PES11 and PES12, all have response issues.
The left analogue stick CANNOT work like a D-PAD: BOTTOM LINE, FACT.
You add humor to your arguments, which is cool, but if your content is always going to revolve around subjective matters... then I'd rather skip your post because I already know what you will say, have read it all before, it's funny the first time you read it... not so funny after 20 pages of the same shit.
No offense intended, as I am fully aware that my long essays are annoying to all of you; just giving you my two cents on what I think about short and subjective comments, despite how funny or sarcastic these comments might be.
You add a lot of humor, and it's funny to read, but you are going about by-products and more by-products, without ever touching on the reason for why these by-products exist.
In any case, I agree with you about my long posts, nobody cares about that and I should stop wasting my time doing that.
James_dean
11-10-2010, 01:28
After repeating the same thing a couple of times, that's what I understood; that it is a video game, it's not real life.
You never actually said that PES11 should not be compared with the real thing; but to me it sounded more or less like you were saying that.
It did sound like that lol, didn´t mean it though, of course Pes should be compared to real life, we can agree on that for sure :)
It did sound like that lol, didn´t mean it though, of course Pes should be compared to real life, we can agree on that for sure :)
Cool, that's what I meant to say, definitely agree about that.
Tech_Skill
11-10-2010, 03:18
Yeah I agree about the 50 pages of dribbling babble, I should stop doing that.
What you don't seem to understand is that RESPONSE TIMES will never be fixed if the left analogue stick is limited by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
This is one of the reasons im moving to reel this kind of talk in.
If Response times is down to the left analogue stick being used like a d-pad, how come response times were not an issue on PES games on the PS2? I certainly don't remember response times being as much as an issue then as they are now, and they have been an issue that ive seen mentioned since PES 09/10, infact I remember last years PES2010's pre launch builds being criticized by the the Muppets and WENB and a few others for having Major response time issues.
I don't know the in and outs of why exactly this is yet, but I believe there iv'e seen links between poor response times and motion captured animations, Fifa notoriously had this flaw in earlier next gen version of fifa and they managed to improve it slightly in my eyes even since Fifa 09.
In other words, im yet to be convinced that the analogue functioning like a d-pad is the cause of poor response times when the response times were in better in previous versions of PES with only an 8 directional d pad to use.
FIFA has msarter and more responsive off-the-ball runs: this is why it is so easy to conjure one-on-one vs the GK situations,
Yet another thing I disagree with, allowing the User to pick when or not User can make a player run is not THE cause of one on ones in fifa. There are most likely more than one cause, maybe the CPU AI is so dumb its not able to track player runs correctly (PES 's AI certainly isnt, and in that respect you might be right, the game isnt ready for fifa-style player run making until the CPU AI is capable of sufficiently defending against it..........
HOWEVER, in fifa, part of the issue is the incredibly high defensive lines caused by the game compacting most of the players into a very tight space in the centre midfield area, meaning there is a HUGE amount of space between the defensive line and the goal. Look at the pic and the radar and check out the defensive lines, its crazy,
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/26ad25ae97.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
huge amounts of player concentrated in a small space, if EA could create an AI capable of retreating the defensive line fast enough and smart enough when not in possession, I think you might see less on on ones.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting. An AI that truly respect player stats (so you dont see the CPU doing through balls with Inzaghi) and an AI that allows each AI controlled team to play lots of different styles of football would balance the game out more imo.
Fight Night Round 4, had a revolutionary analogue stick concept, they changed the punching system to use the right stick, rather than simply pressing a single button to pull off a punch. Yes, this made punching more difficult technically and was designed to eliminate button bashing, maybe timing of punches had to be more precise than previous versions of EA boxing games, combination punching was totally different but guess what..........The game still sucks ass to this day and pound for pound is arguably less technical than an 8 directional ''arcade'' game which is about 10 years old, called victorious boxers.
This is because the latter game is arguably better at the core in the way it deals with things like punch stamina, timing of a punch, how a fighter controls the ring space, fighter individuality (eg. you cannot fight a certain style with certain fighters) etc. So the superior analogue stick movement and mo cap in EA's fight night did NOT gurantee what many would define as realistic, bug free, simulation of boxing because several core issues were not correct. Imo, the same principles can apply to the football debate also.
This is one of the reasons im moving to reel this kind of talk in.
If Response times is down to the left analogue stick being used like a d-pad, how come response times were not an issue on PES games on the PS2? I certainly don't remember response times being as much as an issue then as they are now, and they have been an issue that ive seen mentioned since PES 09/10, infact I remember last years PES2010's pre launch builds being criticized by the the Muppets and WENB and a few others for having Major response time issues.
That's a good point,
This happens because, back in PES5 and PES6, the left analogue stick worked like an 8-axis d-pad... an 8-axis d-pad can only handle a handful of animations... and thus, you only implement the basic animations: responsive running animations that revolve around the 8-axis limitation.
The left analogue stick was a lot more responsive in PES5 and PES6; however, it is also important to acknowledge that the left analogue has never been as responsive as the d-pad.
This is why certain people say that the d-pad is for "hardcore" gamers and that the analogue is for "noobs".
But back to the point, the problem that we have today, is that the 8-axis d-pad concept was UPDATED (NOT REPLACED) with a 360-axis d-pad concept.
And a 360-axis d-pad concept will never work, even if they invent a d-pad with 360 movement... it will not feel right; and certainly, it does not feels right when you attach that concept to the left analogue stick.
The fact that the 360-axis d-pad concept will never work, makes it impractical; dribbling and man-marking will always have RESPONSE ISSUES if the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
The 360-axis d-pad, has improved passing and shooting; however, it will never work for dribbling and man-marking.
This is why FIFA has been having trouble with RESPONSE times since FIFA08, because they copied the 8-axis d-pad concept that Konami used with games like PES5 and PES6, and they simply transferred the concept from the d-pad to the left analogue stick; and they branded it as "360 DRIBBLING".
The truth is, it's not "360 DRIBBLING", it is a 360-axis d-pad concept, same old concept attached to a different button: EA Sports copied PES5 and PES6, and they attached more directions to the same old D-PAD CONCEPT.
This is why, since FIFA08 to FIFA11, these response issues have not been fixed and will not be fixed: EA Sports will say to you that this happens because of the Motion Capture...
But that's bullshit, this happens because the 360-axis d-pad system that they use, is flawed and outdated.
If EA Sports regressed back into the 8-axis era, and if they attach an 8-axis d-pad concept to the left analogue stick WITH MOTION CAPTURE animations; I bet all the possessions that I own, that FIFA would have zero RESPONSE ISSUES.
EA Sports is very aware of the fact, but they will tell you that this is because of motion capture; it's easier and cheaper to hide a flaw, than being forced to fix the flaw and replace the system.
EA Sports will also tell you that there is a perfectly good reason for their horrible faces and caricature-like models; yet the fact is that the faces are shit because EA Sports can't be arsed about fixing them; end of.
Yet another thing I disagree with, allowing the User to pick when or not User can make a player run is not THE cause of one on ones in fifa.
Of course is not THE cause, I never said it was THE cause, I said it was a KEY reason for why you can conjure one of them one-on-one situation almost at will.
If I had that same button in PES10, I would be dictating one-on-one situations all the time; in fact, in PES10 I do create one-on-one situations all the time by using the L2 STRATEGIES.
But yeah, I agree that it most certainly isn't THE reason; THE reason is the root of the problem, which is that the usage of the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
And there you have all the little by-products: unresponsive dribbling, unresponsive man-marking, systematic controls as opposed to intuitive controls, fragmented play due to the excess of spot-kicks awarded, broken tackling system due to the lack of spot-kicks awarded and overall lack of substance/animations, lack of player individuality, excessive one-on-one situations, lack of depth and a repetitive and predictable and systematic feel to everything, static and unresponsive off-the-ball runs, stupid AI, too easy to hold possession, laser guided passing, etc, etc.
Yet another thing I disagree with, allowing the User to pick when or not User can make a player run is not THE cause of one on ones in fifa. There are most likely more than one cause, maybe the CPU AI is so dumb its not able to track player runs correctly (PES 's AI certainly isnt, and in that respect you might be right, the game isnt ready for fifa-style player run making until the CPU AI is capable of sufficiently defending against it..........
HOWEVER, in fifa, part of the issue is the incredibly high defensive lines caused by the game compacting most of the players into a very tight space in the centre midfield area, meaning there is a HUGE amount of space between the defensive line and the goal. Look at the pic and the radar and check out the defensive lines, its crazy,
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/26ad25ae97.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
huge amounts of player concentrated in a small space, if EA could create an AI capable of retreating the defensive line fast enough and smart enough when not in possession, I think you might see less on on ones.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting. An AI that truly respect player stats (so you dont see the CPU doing through balls with Inzaghi) and an AI that allows each AI controlled team to play lots of different styles of football would balance the game out more imo.
Fight Night Round 4, had a revolutionary analogue stick concept, they changed the punching system to use the right stick, rather than simply pressing a single button to pull off a punch. Yes, this made punching more difficult technically and was designed to eliminate button bashing, maybe timing of punches had to be more precise than previous versions of EA boxing games, combination punching was totally different but guess what..........The game still sucks ass to this day and pound for pound is arguably less technical than an 8 directional ''arcade'' game which is about 10 years old, called victorious boxers.
This is because the latter game is arguably better at the core in the way it deals with things like punch stamina, timing of a punch, how a fighter controls the ring space, fighter individuality (eg. you cannot fight a certain style with certain fighters) etc. So the superior analogue stick movement and mo cap in EA's fight night did NOT gurantee what many would define as realistic, bug free, simulation of boxing because several core issues were not correct. Imo, the same principles can apply to the football debate also.
That's the problem of innovating, if you go and use the left analogue stick incorrectly: there are more ways of fucking up.
On the other hand, with the 8-axis d-pad concept, the chances of fucking up are much smaller or limited.
If Konami replaced the current 360-axis d-pad concept with a completely new analogue-based system... and yet their brand new analogue-based system is shit; then yes, PES5 and PES6 could be considered more technical and even better games.
Before innovating, you need to be sure that you understand how dribbling and man-marking works; otherwise, you will end up doing what EA SPORTS (any surprise here?) did with Fight Night.
I have played Fight Night for a long time, I have never bought the game, but my cousin always buys it; and the new system is stupid, it has no substance.
In any case, I think Fight Night is not a good example to compare with a Football Simulation; it's just very different... and the fact it is produced by EA SPORTS... is another factor that makes Fight Night an inadequate example.
Going back to Football Gaming,
Your comments regarding FIFA and PES are spot on; however, I am convinced that the differences in feel are mostly down to how Konami and EA Sports decide to hide the underlying flaw.
For instance, some people have said that FIFA10 used a smaller pitch, than the one Konami used with PES10.
If the small pitch rumor is indeed a fact, there you have another reason, which contributes to the game feeling repetitive and predictable...
On a smaller pitch, you can do less things, you take away the artistic feel of Football, and of course, it is easier to create the one-on-one situations.
If the pitch in FIFA is indeed smaller, this is not an accident, this is there to make the game more fun to play, easier to play; and of course, minimize the D-PAD RESTRICTION that is currently holding the genre back.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting.
That's one of the key words: BALANCE...
When did Konami lost that BALANCE? After PES5... the SPOT-KICK issues of PES5 were "fixed" by breaking the balance, and giving an advantage to the ball carrier....
And the thing about BALANCE... is that it goes hand in hand with UNPREDICTABILITY... Without a proper balance, the game will not have proper unpredictability.
When comparing PES5 with PES6, in PES6 the game is more fluid, because it is not as spot-kick filled as PES5.
But PES6 is when it started going shit, because PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
In order to "fix" the spot-kick issue of PES5, it was necessary to break the balance of the game... there was no other way of "fixing" the spot-kick issue.
PES6 is unbalanced, it is fun and it is responsive, as well as addictive; but PES6 was a major turning point for the PES series...
PES6 killed the UNPREDICTABLE feel of PES5, and this is when the series started going shit because it lost the BALANCE and UNPREDICTABILITY that was associated with PES games.
PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
The thing that PES6 still had going for it, is that it still revolved around the same, tested, RESPONSIVE 8-axis d-pad concept.
But the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent with PES6, and it was not going to go away: PES08 and PES09, and Konami has absolutely no idea about how to improve on PES6 and PES5.
PES10 was the first PES game were we actually have UNRESPONSIVE gameplay, because PES10 is not 8-axis d-pad.
Yet PES10 is an interesting game, because if it had fluid and RESPONSIVE animations: nobody would have said it was rubbish.
But like I have explained throughout all my posts, there is a reason for why FIFA08, FIFA09, FIFA10, PES10, FIFA11, PES11, have RESPONSE ISSUES...
And for that very reason, if you have a proper balance, this will expose the weakest area of the game; and in doing so, will make the game more boring to play.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting. An AI that truly respect player stats (so you dont see the CPU doing through balls with Inzaghi) and an AI that allows each AI controlled team to play lots of different styles of football would balance the game out more imo.
Like I have maintained since the beginning, you are focusing on by-products that have not been fixed for a reason.
If EA Sports and Konami did what you want them to do, it will make the game more balanced but more boring to play because it will expose the obscene D-PAD RESTRICTION.
Back in PES5 and PES6 this was not a problem, because back then it was a responsive and addictive and unpredictable 8-axis d-pad concept...
Today, you cannot have that balance that you are looking for, because the 360-axis d-pad concept is unresponsive, sluggish, predictable, repetitive, systematic.
Back in PES5 and PES6, you could make a balanced and responsive video game; today, you have to decide between balanced or fun: people started playing PES because it was fun and balanced, but now you can only have one or the other.
There are serious repercussions when the 360-axis d-pad concept, improves passing and shooting, and yet makes dribbling and man-marking a sluggish and predictable procedure; improving one area of the game whilst at the same time fucking up another area... will never really work.
Konami and EA Sports, should replace the 360-axis d-pad concept with a completely new analogue-based concept: an analogue-based concept that offers the same freedom when passing the ball, but also, new freedom and responsiveness when dribbling with the ball and when man-marking the ball carrier.
PES5 you mean. 6 is when the series started going to shit ! ( as far as being balanced berween offence & defence realistically )
PES5 you mean. 6 is when the series started going to shit ! ( as far as being balanced berween offence & defence realistically )
That is true... but instead of acknowledging the negatives alone, also consider the positive effects: in PES6 the game is more fluid, because it is not as spot-kick filled as PES5.
But other than that, PES6 is when it started going shit, because PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
In order to "fix" the spot-kick issue of PES5, it was necessary to break the balance of the game... there was no other way of "fixing" the spot-kick issue.
PES6 is unbalanced... but it is fun and it is responsive; the unbalanced gameplay, killed the UNPREDICTABLE feel of PES5, PES6 is when the series started going shit because it lost the UNPREDICTABLE feel of the game... without a proper balance, you don't have proper unpredictability... PES6 was a major turning point for the PES series.
PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
Hi Amateur I see you talking a lot about the flaw of being unable to dribble without activating a running animation? I'm just curious as to what pure dribbling is and if you have any real life footage as an example, thank you
Hi Amateur I see you talking a lot about the flaw of being unable to dribble without activating a running animation? I'm just curious as to what pure dribbling is and if you have any real life footage as an example, thank you
Ok, pure dribbling (as you call it) is more than just ONE skill; DRIBBLING is many different type of skills put together.
In PES11 and FIFA11 you only have a very small portion of DRIBBLING, the essential mechanics of dribbling are missing.
Here is where the problem lies,
In real life, if someone draws a 5 foot square on the ground, I can place my body inside that drawn 5 foot square... and I can DRIBBLE with the ball WITHOUT moving from the INSIDE of the 5 foot square to the OUTSIDE of the 5 foot square; I can pass the ball from my left foot to my right foot, WHILST remaining INSIDE the 5 foot square; I can place the ball in the space between both feet, WITHOUT moving from the 5 foot square.
This is what I describe as ON-THE-SPOT DRIBBLING, because you are dribbling with the ball without moving from the spot.
Now, when you can cover spaces of over 100 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button; when such a thing is possible, so possible that people are not aware of how bug a deal it is...
When such a thing is possible, you cannot dribble without moving from one 5 foot square into another 5 foot square; in other words, you cannot do any ON-THE-SPOT DRIBBLING.
Now, in real life football, when the ball carrier gets closed down by an opponent, you do not get the automatic spot-kick that is awarded in PES5 and PES11; in real life, a physical but technical battle takes place...
In real life, it's not only about running into the ball carrier, you must MEASURE your man-marking and your tackling... In the same way you MEASURE your passes and your crosses and your shots on goal...
In one-versus-one situations: the ball carrier must measure how he dribbles with the ball, and the defender must measure his tackling as well as his positioning.
How can you measure your tackles in PES10? How can you measure your tackles in PES11?
In PES11 and FIFA11 you cannot actually measure your man-marking, because if you cannot dribble without running, you are not measuring how you dribble with the ball, you are measuring how you run with the ball: and if you cannot measure how you dribble, if you cannot dribble without running, then how can the defenders man-mark without running?
Both defenders and attackers are restricted by the very same D-PAD RESTRICTION. So you cannot dribble without running and you cannot man-mark without running: and thus, when the ball carrier gets closed down, you do not get a physical and yet technical battle... you either get a spot-kick, you loose the ball, or you run past the defender, but you never actually do any ON-THE-SPOT DRIBBLING nor any ON-THE-SPOT MAN-MARKING.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You asked for real life footage as an example, I will provide links to YouTube footage, and I will divide the footage into two different dribbling skills: ON-THE-SPOT DRIBBLING and ON-THE-SPOT FEINTS.
I will specify at the beginning of each example, if it is on-the-spot dribbling or on-the-spot feints, you should read the brief explanation for each example before watching the footage; the footage will focus on the dribbling mechanics that we do not have in PES11 and FIFA11.
1st example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12407.html
2nd example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12712.html
3rd example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12893.html
4th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13280.html
5th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13470.html
6th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13726.html
7th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13979.html
8th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14129.html
9th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14392.html
10th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14730.html
11th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14927.html
12th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/15307.html
thank you for that very interesting read, you should look your own ways of making your own video game with the breadth of information you contain :)
Tech_Skill
11-10-2010, 11:09
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The fact that the 360-axis d-pad concept will never work, makes it impractical; dribbling and man-marking will always have RESPONSE ISSUES if the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
Again, this makes no sense. I was using Analogue stick with ISS Pro Evolution 2 on Ps1, I dont remember any response issues, certainly nothing in the league of PES2011. Infact I dont ever remember seeing response times being a real issue until PES 2010, which coincidentally, is when PES really started to kick off with the Motion capture animations.
This is why FIFA has been having trouble with RESPONSE times since FIFA08, because they copied the 8-axis d-pad concept that Konami used with games like PES5 and PES6, and they simply transferred the concept from the d-pad to the left analogue stick; and they branded it as "360 DRIBBLING".
This is why, since FIFA08 to FIFA11, these response issues have not been fixed and will not be fixed: EA Sports will say to you that this happens because of the Motion Capture...
But that's bullshit, this happens because the 360-axis d-pad system that they use, is flawed and outdated.
But guess what, your saying EA ripped off konami's d pad system and added more directions (FIFA10), but, here's the thing, that system had been around for AGES on older pes games, Response times were much better. So how can the same system, being transferred from one game with hardly any response time issues (PES) to another.... result in games with massive response time issues? (FIFA08 so I hear)
The response times on fifa 08 were terrible apparently (iv'e yet to play it) and were improved quite alot in fifa 09, but to my knowledge, BOTH systems used the same Analogue stick system
So if the analogue stick/dpad issue is the cause of poor player response times, how come EA created a game with the same system and less response time issues, that kind of points towards the fact that issue probably wasn't the Analouge/Dpad system in the first place, but something else causing the issues which they improved.
If EA Sports regressed back into the 8-axis era, and if they attach an 8-axis d-pad concept to the left analogue stick WITH MOTION CAPTURE animations; I bet all the possessions that I own, that FIFA would have zero RESPONSE ISSUES.
Ermm but that's what they were doing weren't they. Fifa 08 and Fifa 09 analogue controls were 8 way directional movement, fair do's you can dribble forwards and backwards at different speeds using the analogue sticks, but again, being able to dribble with the ball slowly, then faster depending on how far you push the analogue stick forward shouldn't = Slower response times for the entire game right.
I dont know what dribbling has to do with Response times here, Surely whats going on involves some-kind of issue where the game isn't fast enough to process the command coming in from the controller and then produce the result of the command (shot, pass, cross) on the screen. It's almost a bit like Lag, without using your internet connection, again, I dont see the links between this and D-pad or Analogue.
It's simple. These are the most talked about issues in football gaming right now.
-Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices)
-AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users
-Lack of Player Individuality/More player individuality needed
-Passing is too accurate
-Games are full of bugs
-Ball physics
-Poor Animations/Advancing the animations in the game
- Creating a game with Broadcast reality (ie. better camera angles and better dynamic camera angles too)
For me, the issue you present with the Analogue stick/Dpad doesn't solve the majority of the issues in the game at present, where your going wrong here is your picking an issue in the game and implying this issue is the core of multiple issues in the game, personally, restrictive movement only goes so far in addressing issues with AI, bugs and the other core faults in gaming right now.
That's why fight night round 4 Vs Victorious Boxers was a valid point, EA removed the flaws caused by being allowed to press a button to punch, and moved the punches to the analogue stick. Also, Fight night had far better movement, because the movement was no as restrictive as Victorious boxers which had a very rigid movement, Yet fight night still has core issues which make it arguably less realistic in aspects than a 10 year old game that uses a few directional movements and button to punch. This is because movement of players/fighters whatever in game is not the be all and end all, a game with restrictive movement can still produce better gaming than one with less restrictive movement, other core issues come into play.
Again, this makes no sense. I was using Analogue stick with ISS Pro Evolution 2 on Ps1, I dont remember any response issues, certainly nothing in the league of PES2011. Infact I dont ever remember seeing response times being a real issue until PES 2010, which coincidentally, is when PES really started to kick off with the Motion capture animations.
But guess what, your saying EA ripped off konami's d pad system and added more directions (FIFA10), but, here's the thing, that system had been around for AGES on older pes games, Response times were much better. So how can the same system, being transferred from one game with hardly any response time issues (PES) to another.... result in games with massive response time issues? (FIFA08 so I hear)
The response times on fifa 08 were terrible apparently (iv'e yet to play it) and were improved quite alot in fifa 09, but to my knowledge, BOTH systems used the same Analogue stick system
So if the analogue stick/dpad issue is the cause of poor player response times, how come EA created a game with the same system and less response time issues, that kind of points towards the fact that issue probably wasn't the Analouge/Dpad system in the first place, but something else causing the issues which they improved.
Ermm but that's what they were doing weren't they. Fifa 08 and Fifa 09 analogue controls were 8 way directional movement, fair do's you can dribble forwards and backwards at different speeds using the analogue sticks, but again, being able to dribble with the ball slowly, then faster depending on how far you push the analogue stick forward shouldn't = Slower response times for the entire game right.
I dont know what dribbling has to do with Response times here, Surely whats going on involves some-kind of issue where the game isn't fast enough to process the command coming in from the controller and then produce the result of the command (shot, pass, cross) on the screen. It's almost a bit like Lag, without using your internet connection, again, I dont see the links between this and D-pad or Analogue.
It's simple. These are the most talked about issues in football gaming right now.
-Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices)
-AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users
-Lack of Player Individuality/More player individuality needed
-Passing is too accurate
-Games are full of bugs
-Ball physics
-Poor Animations/Advancing the animations in the game
- Creating a game with Broadcast reality (ie. better camera angles and better dynamic camera angles too)
For me, the issue you present with the Analogue stick/Dpad doesn't solve the majority of the issues in the game at present, where your going wrong here is your picking an issue in the game and implying this issue is the core of multiple issues in the game, personally, restrictive movement only goes so far in addressing issues with AI, bugs and the other core faults in gaming right now.
That's why fight night round 4 Vs Victorious Boxers was a valid point, EA removed the flaws caused by being allowed to press a button to punch, and moved the punches to the analogue stick. Also, Fight night had far better movement, because the movement was no as restrictive as Victorious boxers which had a very rigid movement, Yet fight night still has core issues which make it arguably less realistic in aspects than a 10 year old game that uses a few directional movements and button to punch. This is because movement of players/fighters whatever in game is not the be all and end all, a game with restrictive movement can still produce better gaming than one with less restrictive movement, other core issues come into play.
Yeah but even with PES5 and PES6, you have a difference in RESPONSE times...
And yet PES6 did not had any MOTION CAPTURE, and you can certainly feel, straight away, a difference in terms of RESPONSIVENESS between PES5 and PES6.
So your MOTION CAPTURE theory does not quite fit into this story, PES5 and PES6 have very clear differences in RESPONSIVENESS and FEEL, these games did not have any MOTION CAPTURE and both were 8-axis d-pad.
Between FIFA08 and FIFA10, EA Sports had plenty of time to polish their system... you can make it better, yet it will always have response issues because they use the left analogue like a d-pad.
If you invented a d-pad with over 30 directions, it would never be responsive: it would get lost in translation.... in all the different directions that it can now go.
As for ISS,
I have never in my life played that game, but people whom I respect have told me it was more or less 360 analogue; having never played the game, I am in no position to talk about it...
However, if I said to you that ISS did used the analogue like an analogue, and that the D-PAD revolved around an ANALOGUE CONCEPT; what do you have to say about that?
1st -- Would you say that the D-PAD revolved around an ANALOGUE CONCEPT?
2nd -- Or would you say that the D-PAD revolved around a D-PAD CONCEPT?
It is either one or the other, the d-pad and the left analogue stick are entirely different buttons; the gameplay concept MUST revolve around one or the other, because the left analogue stick will never function like the d-pad, nor will the d-pad ever function like the left analogue stick.
Remember, PES was very different to ISS... And from my perspective, it sounds like ISS was supposed to be played with the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK, and not with the D-PAD.
On the other hand, PES was meant to be played with the D-PAD, it was not based on the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK.
So there's the basic question again.
In PES, the left analogue stick revolves around a D-PAD CONCEPT. This is why the vast majority of "hardcore" fans did not used the left analogue stick when they played PES.
In ISS, what button did the vast majority of "hardcore" fans used? LEFT ANALOGUE STICK or the D-PAD?
Perhaps, maybe, ISS was far ahead of its time and actually used the left analogue stick the way it should be used. I can't judge on that because I have not played ISS, I have played PES and FIFA.
And PES and FIFA started feeling unresponsive since the "360 passing" emerged... when it was 8-axis passing, we never had any RESPONSE ISSUES; which, of course, coincides with the usage of MOTION CAPTURE.
And PES10 does have some MOTION CAPTURE on it, but it also was the first PES game not to revolve around the old 8-axis d-pad concept.
In addition, 2K9 and 2K10 have MOTION CAPTURE, and yet these video games have no RESPONSE ISSUES.
So considering the mentioned fact, I have a hard time believing that MOTION CAPTURE is THE reason for the response issues. It should be a factor, because it takes time to perfect, but I do not think it is THE reason.
2K9 and 2K10, no response issues, motion capture; why is it that PES and FIFA cannot do something that worked in the 2K series?
I just don't see why MOTION CAPTURE is responsible for the unresponsiveness; I think the thing that is responsible for the lag or unresponsiveness, is the lack of space to implement the MOTION CAPTURE to link one animation to another animation and so on and so forth....
The LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is being employed like a D-PAD, and as such, is being restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION; it does not have the space required to implement sufficient MOTION CAPTURE to link the animations.
Perhaps, even though without MOTION CAPTURE, ISS had great linking animations, which made the transition from one animation to another animation seamless and responsive.
The old FIFA games were never as responsive nor as precise as PES was; and MOTION CAPTURE had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Tech_Skill
11-10-2010, 15:36
Yeah but even with PES5 and PES6, you have a difference in RESPONSE times...
And yet PES6 did not had any MOTION CAPTURE, and you can certainly feel, straight away, a difference in terms of RESPONSIVENESS between PES5 and PES6.
So your MOTION CAPTURE theory does not quite fit into this story, PES5 and PES6 have very clear differences in RESPONSIVENESS and FEEL, these games did not have any MOTION CAPTURE and both were 8-axis d-pad.
Between FIFA08 and FIFA10, EA Sports had plenty of time to polish their system... you can make it better, yet it will always have response issues because they use the left analogue like a d-pad.
If you invented a d-pad with over 30 directions, it would never be responsive: it would get lost in translation.... in all the different directions that it can now go.
As for ISS,
I have never in my life played that game, but people whom I respect have told me it was more or less 360 analogue; having never played the game, I am in no position to talk about it...
However, if I said to you that ISS did used the analogue like an analogue, and that the D-PAD revolved around an ANALOGUE CONCEPT; what do you have to say about that?
1st -- Would you say that the D-PAD revolved around an ANALOGUE CONCEPT?
2nd -- Or would you say that the D-PAD revolved around a D-PAD CONCEPT?
It is either one or the other, the d-pad and the left analogue stick are entirely different buttons; the gameplay concept MUST revolve around one or the other, because the left analogue stick will never function like the d-pad, nor will the d-pad ever function like the left analogue stick.
Remember, PES was very different to ISS... And from my perspective, it sounds like ISS was supposed to be played with the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK, and not with the D-PAD.
On the other hand, PES was meant to be played with the D-PAD, it was not based on the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK.
So there's the basic question again.
In PES, the left analogue stick revolves around a D-PAD CONCEPT. This is why the vast majority of "hardcore" fans did not used the left analogue stick when they played PES.
In ISS, what button did the vast majority of "hardcore" fans used? LEFT ANALOGUE STICK or the D-PAD?
Perhaps, maybe, ISS was far ahead of its time and actually used the left analogue stick the way it should be used. I can't judge on that because I have not played ISS, I have played PES and FIFA.
And PES and FIFA started feeling unresponsive since the "360 passing" emerged... when it was 8-axis passing, we never had any RESPONSE ISSUES; which, of course, coincides with the usage of MOTION CAPTURE.
And PES10 does have some MOTION CAPTURE on it, but it also was the first PES game not to revolve around the old 8-axis d-pad concept.
In addition, 2K9 and 2K10 have MOTION CAPTURE, and yet these video games have no RESPONSE ISSUES.
So considering that FACT, I have a hard time believing that MOTION CAPTURE is THE reason for the response issues. It should be a factor, because it takes time to perfect, but I do not think it is THE reason.
2K9 and 2K10, no response issues, motion capture; why is it that PES and FIFA cannot do something that worked in the 2K series?
I just don't see why MOTION CAPTURE is responsible for the unresponsiveness; I think the thing that is responsible for the lag or unresponsiveness, is the lack of space to implement the MOTION CAPTURE to link one animation to another animation and so on and so forth....
The LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is being employed like a D-PAD, and as such, is being restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION; it does not have the space required to implement sufficient MOTION CAPTURE to link the animations.
Perhaps, even though without MOTION CAPTURE, ISS had great linking animations, which made the transition from one animation to another animation seamless and responsive.
The old FIFA games were never as responsive nor as precise as PES was; and MOTION CAPTURE had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Just glanced through this one quickly. As im keen to move on from this talk soon.
1) I said i've seen the response times issue linked to use of mo cap animations, I never said it was gospel or the sole reason. We dont know how these companies implement mo-cap animations and how it affects their game, maybe some can do it better than others, not sure, no one has said if you use mo cap, you get bad response times, what being said is, its been linked with poor response times, maybe that down to the way its been implemented, who knows.
2) Just to re-iterate, I dont believe that Dpad/Analouge stick and the restrictions of freedom they give/take away is the deciding factor in response times like you have suggested. The same Analogue control system has been used in previous/other pes's/fifa's and they had better response times.
3) In my opinion allowing players to Dribble/move in a certain way, doesn't go very far to tackle the following core issues in modern day football.
-Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices)
-AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users
-Passing is too accurate
-Games are full of bugs
-Ball physics
- Creating a game with Broadcast reality (ie. better camera angles and better dynamic camera angles too)
Personally I'd rather see the above issues, particularly the AI issues and the obvious bugs removed, then the other issues dealt with 1st, before I start seeing anymore revolutionary changes in the way players moved. Example: Fifa 10 brought in so called '360 dribbling' which was desgined to give players move movement in order to help attackers beat defenders by using finer turning angles to find space........
Well, it didnt work, because the CPU AI read your everymove and still tackled you nearly everytime, meaning much of the point of the innvoation became pointless as you couldnt really use it to your advantage anyways, that's an AI/Phyiscal issue and an example of why allowing more freedom/movement animations does not necessarily transfer into a better gaming experience.
The long posts aren't annoying, they're interesting but time-consuming.
Just glanced through this one quickly. As im keen to move on from this talk soon.
1) I said i've seen the response times issue linked to use of mo cap animations, I never said it was gospel or the sole reason. We dont know how these companies implement mo-cap animations and how it affects their game, maybe some can do it better than others, not sure, no one has said if you use mo cap, you get bad response times, what being said is, its been linked with poor response times, maybe that down to the way its been implemented, who knows.
2) Just to re-iterate, I dont believe that Dpad/Analouge stick and the restrictions of freedom they give/take away is the deciding factor in response times like you have suggested. The same Analogue control system has been used in previous/other pes's/fifa's and they had better response times.
3) In my opinion allowing players to Dribble/move in a certain way, doesn't go very far to tackle the following core issues in modern day football.
-Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices)
-AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users
-Passing is too accurate
-Games are full of bugs
-Ball physics
- Creating a game with Broadcast reality (ie. better camera angles and better dynamic camera angles too)
Personally I'd rather see the above issues, particularly the AI issues and the obvious bugs removed, then the other issues dealt with 1st, before I start seeing anymore revolutionary changes in the way players moved. Example: Fifa 10 brought in so called '360 dribbling' which was desgined to give players move movement in order to help attackers beat defenders by using finer turning angles to find space........
Well, it didnt work, because the CPU AI read your everymove and still tackled you nearly everytime, meaning much of the point of the innvoation became pointless as you couldnt really use it to your advantage anyways, that's an AI/Phyiscal issue and an example of why allowing more freedom/movement animations does not necessarily transfer into a better gaming experience.
I think this is likely to be my last post regarding this particular subject, so I want to be clear about what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.
The motion capture + 360 axis analogue stick, formula; works pretty well for the 2K Series, 2K9 and 2K10 are good examples.
Like everything, someone will do it better than the rest, but that's besides the point; the relevant point, as far as far I'm concerned, is that in 2K Sports knows how to do it... and that Konami and EA Sports, for whatever the reason, have not nailed it yet.
Here is my reason for WHY.... Konami and EA Sports have not nailed the motion capture + 360 axis movement, formula, yet...
I think THE thing that is responsible for the lag or unresponsiveness, is the lack of space to implement the motion capture to LINK one animation to another animation and so on and so forth....
That is THE LINK that PES11 and FIFA11 are currently lacking, we need a NON-RUNNING AND RESPONSIVE LINK to link one running animation with another running animation; currently, the LINK is provided by running animations... In other words, running animations are LINKED by yet more running animations.
And like a d-pad with over 30 directions, it would never be responsive: it would get lost in translation.... due to all the running in all the different directions that it can now go.
And next thing you know, you have covered a space of over 15 feet of distance... when all you wanted was a subtle and effective and responsive LINK: a LINK that does not requires you to run 5 yards with the ball, subtle, effective, responsive.
Because the LINK gets lost in translation, we get response issues, because the 360-axis d-pad gets lost in translation... due to all the directions in which it can now run.... and consequently, the LINK between running animations, feels like a heavy car with a really heavy and unresponsive steering wheel.
The LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is being employed like a D-PAD, and as such, is being restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION; it does not have the space required to implement sufficient MOTION CAPTURE to link the animations.
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The other thing I wanted to discuss, is FIFA09.
Passing on FIFA09 was not exactly 8-axis was it? Or do you not remember all the PES fans talking about how much more fluid and freed-up the passing felt in FIFA09?
FIFA09 already had the "passing power bar" thing working for it, plus it did not feel like it was 8-axis passing.
You keep the dribbling restricted to the same old 8-axis concept, and yet you introduce this new and improved passing system; perhaps the passing had a lot to do with the RESPONSE TIMES...
FIFA09 did not functioned under the same 8-axis passing that was used with PES6 and PES5 and PES09..........
And the thing about passing is.... that it is directly linked with OFF-THE-BALL RESPONSE TIMES, as well as ON-THE-BALL RESPONSE TIMES.
If you change the way passing works, this will change how the game plays; FIFA09 had a different passing system to the 8-axis passing system which was used in PES5 and PES6.
For the mentioned reason, I do not think it is wise to compare FIFA09 with PES5 and PES6; the passing system was not 8-axis and it had a "power bar" working for it, and passing is a key area of the game, and it will affect off-the-ball response times as well as on-the-ball response times.
Now that FIFA11 has slightly improved response times.... Have you noticed how SLOW the PASSING is now when compared with FIFA09 or FIFA10?
SLOW PASSING will make the dribbling and man-marking animations look and feel more responsive; yet the underlying flaw remains untouched.
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I wanted to provide real life footage, so that you or anyone interested can get a better understanding and a better idea of where I'm coming from. I will first explain the basic idea, and will then provide real life footage as examples.
1st Part: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/11390.html
2nd part: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/11724.html
3rd part: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12004.html
4th part: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12283.html
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5th part: real life examples.
Now, for the actual footage showing how the INSIDE CUT and the PRECISION TOUCH works in real life.
Before watching the footage, you should read the explanation, so that you get a vague idea of where I'm coming from.
1st example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12407.html
2nd example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12712.html
3rd example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/12893.html
4th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13280.html
5th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13470.html
6th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13726.html
7th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/13979.html
8th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14129.html
9th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14392.html
10th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14730.html
11th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/14927.html
12th example: http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/15307.html
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If you watched the footage and also read how it would worked on paper; then you should understand my verdict on this subject.
Now, PES5 and PES6 and PES10 have no power bar for passing the ball, the left analogue stick determined both the DIRECTION and POWER of the passes.
This was a problem for PES5 and PES6, as well as with PES10; so regardless of response times or response issues, regardless of motion capture; the fact that the left analogue stick determined both the DIRECTION and POWER of the passes... This was always a limitation and a problem, and eventually it would show up, and it was felt in PES5 and PES6, despite the lack of motion capture and the lack of 360-axis d-pad.
With passing, the power bar helped matters, because it relieved the left analogue stick from the burden of determining the direction of the pass as well as the power of the pass.
With dribbling, the left analogue stick currently affects the DIRECTION in which you run, as well as the DISTANCE COVERED: the fact that you can cover spaces of over 100 feet of distance by simply directing the leftb analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button... is a problem, is a limitation, it was destined to show up due to mathematical reasons, and it is currently restricting every area of the game.
Do you not think that, by applying the "power bar" concept to dribbling... that this would not help matters?
With dribbling, the difference between HOW we dribble and WHEN we choose to employ a certain skill,
Why can't we have the responsiveness of instantly responsive buttons such as the PASSING and CROSSING buttons; to decide WHEN we use certain dribbling skills that do not require left analogue stick directions, such as the INSIDE CUT.
And why can't we mix that D-PAD-LIKE CONCEPT to determine WHEN certain dribbling skills are used, and use the the left analogue stick to determine HOW it is done?
So that INSTANTLY RESPONSIVE buttons determine WHEN certain skills are used, and the range of movement and depth of the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK determines HOW it can be used in all the different dimensions or facets of dribbling.
Determining HOW and WHEN and the DISTANCE COVERED, are three different areas determined by one button, that's very restrictive however you look at it.
Just like when the left analogue stick determined both the POWER and DIRECTION of passes, which was restrictive, and was fixed.
Do you really, honestly, think that better employed buttons would not help matters in terms of RESPONSE ISSUES?
2K9 and 2K10, no response issues, motion capture, 360 movement; why is it that PES and FIFA cannot do something that worked in the 2K series?
It is a fact that the left analogue stick is not being used to its full potential; however, I cannot prove to you, with concrete and undeniable evidence, that this is THE root of the problem.
At the same time, your theory cannot be described as a fact either, because the 2K games discredit the theory about motion capture being THE root of the problem; as well as other things which also discredit the mentioned theory.
In any case, I think the debate was healthy and informative, which is something that you will not see very often in any PES forum. Without completely disagreeing with you, I stand by my initial theory... without deviating into what I consider trivial, this is my verdict,
People can say whatever they want about ISS, PES5, and PES6; yet the fact is that ISS revolved around a shit dribbling system... great for the time, but outdated today: the dribbling in ISS, PES5, and PES6, was responsive and unpredictable, but it is a very restrictive and outdated concept, and it never actually felt like dribbling.
Back then it was responsive and unpredictable and organic and imprecise, today it is unresponsive and predictable and systematic and imprecise; as different as it may look and feel, both the 8-axis d-pad and the 360-axis d-pad are imprecise when it comes to dribbling and man-marking: that lack of precision is a D-PAD RESTRICTION... not an analogue restriction.
I just don't see why motion capture is responsible for the unresponsiveness; I think THE thing that is responsible for the lag or unresponsiveness, is the lack of space to implement the motion capture to LINK one animation to another animation and so on and so forth....
That is THE LINK that PES11 and FIFA11 are currently lacking, we need a NON-RUNNING AND RESPONSIVE LINK to link one running animation with another running animation; currently, the LINK is provided by running animations... In other words, running animations are LINKED by yet more running animations.
And like a d-pad with over 30 directions, it would never be responsive: it would get lost in translation.... due to all the running in all the different directions that it can now go.
And the next thing you know, you have covered a space of over 15 feet of distance... when all you wanted was a subtle and effective and responsive LINK: a LINK that does not requires you to run 5 yards with the ball, subtle, effective, responsive.
Because the LINK gets lost in translation, we get response issues, because the 360-axis d-pad gets lost in translation... due to all the directions in which it can now run.... and consequently, the LINK between running animations, feels like a heavy car with a really heavy and unresponsive steering wheel.
The LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is being employed like a D-PAD, and as such, is being restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION; it does not have the space required to implement sufficient MOTION CAPTURE to link the animations efficiently.
Improving other areas of the game, when the heartbeat of the game is the weakest area of the game; is like trying to run without knowing how to walk properly.
The physical and yet technical aspect of football, needs to be better, much better, much more substantial and precise, before they start making the game smarter in other areas.
A smarter and more balanced game, will expose the obscene response issues, lack of physics, lack of substance, that we currently have in the most important area: dribbling and man-marking.
Konami knows this, and EA Sports is also aware.
Avelives
12-10-2010, 07:22
Guys enough with the enormous posts already...
Its as simple as this, Fifa is great as a mass appeal crowd pleaser, easy to pick up and play, looks great, but dig deeper and its a bit shallow and pointless. Like a really hot girl who isn't that bright.
PES is a little twitchy and odd at times, takes some getting used to but dig deep enough and its brilliant, a bit like a slightly odd looking girl who rocks in bed.
Hear endeth that lame analogy.
As for Defending being broken since PES5? WTF!!
I was perfectly capable in PES2010 of sitting back and counteracting oponents attacks by shepherding them into certain areas of the pitch, dont know what you mean tbh,
Tech_Skill
12-10-2010, 07:48
I think this is likely to be my last post regarding this particular subject, so I want to be clear about what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.
The motion capture + 360 axis analogue stick, formula; works pretty well for the 2K Series, 2K9 and 2K10 are good examples.
Like everything, someone will do it better than the rest, but that's besides the point; the relevant point, as far as far I'm concerned, is that in 2K Sports knows how to do it... and that Konami and EA Sports, for whatever the reason, have not nailed it yet.
Here is my reason for WHY.... Konami and EA Sports have not nailed the motion capture + 360 axis movement, formula, yet...
I think THE thing that is responsible for the lag or unresponsiveness, is the lack of space to implement the motion capture to LINK one animation to another animation and so on and so forth....
That is THE LINK that PES11 and FIFA11 are currently lacking, we need a NON-RUNNING AND RESPONSIVE LINK to link one running animation with another running animation; currently, the LINK is provided by running animations... In other words, running animations are LINKED by yet more running animations.
And like a d-pad with over 30 directions, it would never be responsive: it would get lost in translation.... due to all the running in all the different directions that it can now go.
And next thing you know, you have covered a space of over 15 feet of distance... when all you wanted was a subtle and effective and responsive LINK: a LINK that does not requires you to run 5 yards with the ball, subtle, effective, responsive.
Because the LINK gets lost in translation, we get response issues, because the 360-axis d-pad gets lost in translation... due to all the directions in which it can now run.... and consequently, the LINK between running animations, feels like a heavy car with a really heavy and unresponsive steering wheel.
The LEFT ANALOGUE STICK is being employed like a D-PAD, and as such, is being restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION; it does not have the space required to implement sufficient MOTION CAPTURE to link the animations.
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The other thing I wanted to discuss, is FIFA09.
Passing on FIFA09 was not exactly 8-axis was it? Or do you not remember all the PES fans talking about how much more fluid and freed-up the passing felt in FIFA09?
FIFA09 already had the "passing power bar" thing working for it, plus it did not feel like it was 8-axis passing.
You keep the dribbling restricted to the same old 8-axis concept, and yet you introduce this new and improved passing system; perhaps the passing had a lot to do with the RESPONSE TIMES...
FIFA09 did not functioned under the same 8-axis passing that was used with PES6 and PES5 and PES09..........
And the thing about passing is.... that it is directly linked with OFF-THE-BALL RESPONSE TIMES, as well as ON-THE-BALL RESPONSE TIMES.
If you change the way passing works, this will change how the game plays; FIFA09 had a different passing system to the 8-axis passing system which was used in PES5 and PES6.
For the mentioned reason, I do not think it is wise to compare FIFA09 with PES5 and PES6; the passing system was not 8-axis and it had a "power bar" working for it, and passing is a key area of the game, and it will affect off-the-ball response times as well as on-the-ball response times.
Stopped reading here, I never seen anything to suggest fifa's passing system has changed in terms of directions you can pass in, in fifa 09 im pretty sure it was 8 directional movement and passing, in fifa 10 i assume it was '360 movement' with the passing system staying the same. Passing for sure felt better in fifa 09 than in previous pes's, maybe it had something to do with passes in PES being very straight with little bend which enhanced that 'passing on a grid' feeling amoungst other issues. pes But previous to this year, I assume the directions of passing in both games are the same, until I see evidence to the contrary.
If if anything its PES's passing system that has changed as PES 2011 is said to offer more directions to pass in.
As for Defending being broken since PES5? WTF!!
I was perfectly capable in PES2010 of sitting back and counteracting oponents attacks by shepherding them into certain areas of the pitch, dont know what you mean tbh,
PES2008 defending was a disgrace, seriously, so very bad, 2009 I dont even remember that game it was so shit, 2010 I remember the AI being passive for the 3 or so games of that shit i played, in pes 2011, the defending is very bad at times, the other day in master league the defender stopped still and watched a though ball bounce off him and it left a one on one for the CPU AI. As far as im concerned, the AI in modern day gaming is a huge issue, more of an issue to me than some of the other stuff I see about Dpad's and Analouge sticks.
On a different note, I was on fifa forum the other day, Man, those fans on there have had enough, saw quite a few posts on there from people that are now playing PES again, I think quite a few of them are gonna go back to fifa because the learning curve on PES is steep, but ive noticed some of the people really willing to stick it out are some of the offliners who play the career mode on fifa. Apparently that mode is fucked, bugged and boring YET AGAIN, so they switched to master league and some of them are shocked by how in depth it is. Iv'e gotta say Master League looks so strong so far this year, there's alot going on there, but Konami have to allow you to move clubs mid season.
Guys enough with the enormous posts already...
Its as simple as this, Fifa is great as a mass appeal crowd pleaser, easy to pick up and play, looks great, but dig deeper and its a bit shallow and pointless. Like a really hot girl who isn't that bright.
PES is a little twitchy and odd at times, takes some getting used to but dig deep enough and its brilliant, a bit like a slightly odd looking girl who rocks in bed.
Hear endeth that lame analogy.
As for Defending being broken since PES5? WTF!!
I was perfectly capable in PES2010 of sitting back and counteracting oponents attacks by shepherding them into certain areas of the pitch, dont know what you mean tbh,
Sure you do not know what I mean, you don't even know why the defensive system in PES5 is broken... It's kinda funny to be honest, the flaw is so invisible, that people do not see it as a flaw, they already see it as part of the game; yet it is the reason for why defending was broken in PES5 and PES6 and PES10 and FIFA10 and PES11 and FIFA11.
PES5 was filled with spot-kicks because it lacked proper dribbling and man-marking physics: it is a FACT which can be proven by statistics and by logic, as well as video footage...
5 to 6 years later, and we still have a video game filled with spot-kicks, because like in PES5, it lacks basic dribbling and man-marking physics; adding more directions to PES5 was never going to fix the problem, and here we are in year 2010.
The game is stupid and dumb where it matters the most, and they minimize the fact by giving you stupid AI all around.
I will not bother explaining why it is broken, simply put, can you kill someone whom is already dead?
Well, can you dribble when the player is permanently and automatically running and dribbling for you? Do we have a power bar for stealing the ball or tackling?
If the COMPUTER passed the ball for you, ALL THE TIME, would you say that the passing system is not broken?
Stopped reading here, I never seen anything to suggest fifa's passing system has changed in terms of directions you can pass in, in fifa 09 im pretty sure it was 8 directional movement and passing, in fifa 10 i assume it was '360 movement' with the passing system staying the same. Passing for sure felt better in fifa 09 than in previous pes's, maybe it had something to do with passes in PES being very straight with little bend which enhanced that 'passing on a grid' feeling amoungst other issues. pes But previous to this year, I assume the directions of passing in both games are the same, until I see evidence to the contrary.
If if anything its PES's passing system that has changed as PES 2011 is said to offer more directions to pass in.
Good for you, you stopped reading there, cool.
Even if it is 8-axis, it has the passing power bar... which WILL and DID changed the game. It took PES how many years to implement such an obvious feature?
You have yet to explain why 2K9 and 2K10 are not unresponsive video games and you are conveniently clinging on to the same information; information that does not proves anything.
So motion capture is largely responsible for the sluggish feel, right?
And why was it so imprecise back in PES5, responsive but IMPRECISE... Why was PES10 also imprecise? Why is FIFA10 also imprecise? Why was ISS imprecise? and why is PES11 also imprecise as well as sluggish?
That's were the whole motion capture bullshit starts looking like a pack of lies; something that is supported by the fact that 2K9 and 2K10 are filled with motion capture and yet do not feel sluggish; and also supported by other facts.
I agree with some parts of your argument and I think your criticism is spot on for the most part, but your suggestions on how it should improve.... in that respect, I think your argument is pretty redundant for obvious reasons which I will not bother explaining again.
I play PES5 today, and after the 100th spot-kick of the game, I turn the game off. Responsiveness and unpredictability is great, but if the game is imprecise, this will become unbearable.
I prefer playing PES11 with stupid AI, than being forced to play PES11 with smart AI.
If the defense was not stupid, FIFA11 would bore the hell out of me, more than it currently does; I prefer creating 10 on-on-one situations per game, rather than being forced to actually dribble past a defender... Na, I prefer the broken defensive system if the physics are non-existent.
Perhaps, this is why you can play FIFA and I cannot, after scoring 15 one-on-one situations in 10 minutes, that's the part were I turn off the game and don't bother with it.
But anyways, thanks for your time, it was nice having a half decent conversation about the product in question.
-Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices)
-AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users
-Lack of Player Individuality/More player individuality needed
-Passing is too accurate
-Games are full of bugs
-Ball physics
-Poor Animations/Advancing the animations in the game
- Creating a game with Broadcast reality (ie. better camera angles and better dynamic camera angles too)
Poor animations: let's make it pretty... it still is a shit system, it doesn't matters how pretty it looks.
You cannot have PRECISION with the D-PAD CONCEPT, because the left analogue stick determines HOW you dribble or run, WHEN you dribble or run, and also, the DISTANCE COVERED with the ball; three entirely different areas determined by one button, that is a problem, that is very restrictive however you look at it.
We already saw how much passing changed and improved, by simply adding a power bar to determine the power of the pass; in the next couple of years, the same thing will be done with dribbling and man-marking, and this will be a massive change and a very positive step in the right direction, and it will affect all the areas of the game.
Ball physics: will make it look more pretty, feel more pretty.... it still is a shit system at its very core, where it matters the most.
Lack of Player Individuality/More player individuality needed: obvious really... very obvious.
Games are full of bugs: because a bug free game will make me forget about how shit the game actually is? a bug free PES10 will never make the game that much better, nor will it make FIFA10 nor FIFA11 nor PES11 that much better.
Passing is too accurate: this has to do with the lack of physics as well as lack of AI, and lack of AI is a by-product of lack of physics. The easy passing is what will keep the fans hooked, that's the hook of the game, asking them to minimize their hook is simply unwise.
AI Doesn't respect player stats and makes poor player do great things to try and get even with the users: if it respected the stats, the game would be too easy... this is why the AI does not respects the STATS, and when they want to, the AI will run you over.... because the game does not have proper physics where it matters the most.
Most of the AI goals, will be the result of a slow player out-running a fast CB, super-man scoring a header from a corner kick, etc, etc. If we had proper physics, the AI would not have that freedom of simply deciding to bend the laws of physics and magically score a goal.
Poor CPU AI (makes bad logical choices): so you want them to make better choices? Really? The game is already an easy ping pong game... and you want smarter teammates?
Yeah, there's a reason for why they are stupid, because if they were any smarter.... it would expose the complete lack of proper dribbling and man-marking physics, it would make the game more boring to play, and in the case it favors the attackers over the defenders, it will result in countless one-versus-one situations per game; resulting in 10-8 score lines.
It's LOOSE-LOOSE, if it's balanced you loose, if it favors the attackers you loose: this is why the AI is stupid, because despite whatever you think, it makes the game more fun to play. This is why in PES your teammates seem to be stoned all the time, and in FIFA you score one-versus-one goals without even intending to do so.
Yes we have bugs, but most of these "flaws" are there to offer a balance, so that the game is neither too easy nor too boring.
You are asking Konami and EA Sports, to run when they have not even learned how to walk properly.
You are under the impression, that it is me, whom is asking them to run without knowing how to walk; but in truth, I am asking them to learn how to walk, before attempting to run.
Actually, and I don't give a shit about how you take this, hopefully you'll understand that it's just an argument concerning a video game, nothing more and nothing less; and I do, for the most part, respect your criticism regarding PES and FIFA.
But I just find it hilarious that someone with your attitude, cannot see how that list of rubbish is nothing relevant, it's completely redundant, if you cannot see why... that says a lot.
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