PES 2012 News, Screenshots & Videos [Index In First Post]

[OnlyProEvo]

I'll update this thread as soon as news, new videos, screenshots and everything else is released by Konami (unless some of it is leaked...).

Please use this thread to discuss PES 2012 news, when it comes out. Check back regularly to keep up-to-date with the updates.


30 May: First 3 Screenshots Released. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/05/pes-2012-first-screenshots.html)

2 June: Next Batch Of PES 2012 Details Emerge. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/next-batch-of-pes-2012-details-emerge.html)

3 June: Konami Release PES 2012 E3 Trailer. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/konami-release-pes-2012-e3-trailer.html)

7 June: TEN New PES 2012 Screenshots Released. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-screenshots-released.html)

8 June: First PES 2012 Impressions Released. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/first-pes-2012-impressions-released.html)

18 June: E3 Interview With Jon Murphy. (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/e3-interview-with-jon-murphy.html)

23 June: D-Pad Controls Remain... For Now (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/d-pad-controls-remain-for-now.html)

28 June: Goalkeepers Have Been Fixed For PES 2012 (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/goalkeepers-have-been-fixed-for-pes.html) + "Football Life" New Game Mode is Announced (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-game-mode-announced.html)

28 June: WENB PES 2012 Playtest Impressions (http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/wenb-pes-2012-playtest-impressions/)

14 July: Gameplay Videos;
Overlapping Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-overlapping.html)
Diagonal Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-diagonal-runs.html)
Dummy Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-dummy-runs.html)
Zonal Defense (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-zonal-defense.html)
Zonal Marking (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-zonal-marking.html)
Off The Ball Controls (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-off-ball.html)

20 July: Official PES 2012 Press Release From Konami (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/konami-deliver-pes-2012-press-release.html)
Challenge Mode Returns! (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/challenge-mode-returns-for-pes-2012.html)
Messi Ditched As Cover Star (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/messi-no-longer-pes-cover-star.html)
Five New Screenshots Released (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/five-new-pes-2012-screenshots-released_20.html)

21 July: Champion And Beglin Stay With PES 2012 (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/champion-beglin-remain-for-pes-2012.html)

22 July: Three New Screens + La Liga Details (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/three-new-pes-2012-screens-la-liga.html)

28 July: PES 2012 Gameplay Video: One on Ones (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-one-on-ones.html)

[OnlyProEvo]

More PES 2012 information is coming tonight (1am English time), as Konami are holding a pre-E3 conference.

Who's staying up with me? :cool:

[Alolo91]

I will be watching it. Hopefully something good will be shown.

[OnlyProEvo]

Pretty cool video, but this week will be "the one". Let's hope we are all impressed. :D

[OnlyProEvo]

What do we think of the new screenshots guys?

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-screenshots-released.html

[Michu]

Actual gameplay screenshots would be nice, this is just glossy intro vid shots.

[Tech_Skill]

What do we think of the new screenshots guys?

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-screenshots-released.html

Couldnt give a monkey nuts to be honest.

They do fuck all for me, if konami sent me a beta copy, id be more interested, and ill tell you something all this ''embargo'' shit is a joke, i would openly tell people on pes gaming what the deal was, fuck the damn embargo.

[xelliotx]

First impressions gives me a bit of hope! Sounds good so far

[RAMAXWY]

First impressions gives me a bit of hope! Sounds good so far

it does that every year so nothing to get to exited about.
just being honest.
these reviewers never really complain they stay in some sort of grey area so you never really know what your getting.
i want to see some good ingame videos, which can help me judge the tempo and the improvements that have been talked about but in the end the only thing that can really give us an idea of what to expect is the demo,and that ain't around the corner

[xelliotx]

I was hoping for a lot of on floor E3 videos, but I'm not sure if theyre even showing this game off

[Bish]

What do we think of the new screenshots guys?

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-screenshots-released.html

I like that picture with Heitinga putting his arms round Klose. It's the same sort of 'defending' you see in real life. Like everyone else though, screenshots mean nothing on the whole.

[DunkTheJunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFCYPnDlgtw

machinima interview with tim blaire

[Timbone]

In my opinion, PES 2011 focused too much on the attacking aspects of the game, although its not perfect, I would give it a solid 8 outta 10
but the defending aspect I would give a negative 50 out of 10, its that bad

[OnlyProEvo]

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/d-pad-controls-remain-for-now.html

[OnlyProEvo]

Goalkeepers have been fixed for PES 2012!

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/goalkeepers-have-been-fixed-for-pes.html

New game mode announced!

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/new-pes-2012-game-mode-announced.html

[DIECI]

The golies in 2011 weren't all that bad as far as making saves, what sucked about them is on corner kicks for example, when you wanted to come out and attack the ball with your keeper they seemed very slow to react off the line so you had to depend on your defender to head it out, if not you could get caught in no mans land with your golie. This is the part that really frustrated me on the golies for 2011.

[OnlyProEvo]

I think many would argue that there were many more problems than that, for PES 2011 goalkeepers. I certainly would.

So guys, what do we all think this "Football Life" gamemode is about?

[S-D-P]

I honestly don't have many problems with my keepers offline, you do get the odd bad mistake but for the most part I feel the GK's are fairly organic and have individuality. I do agree they need to be improved and only a small selection of keepers in the game are capable of being consistent.

Just hope they don't take the EA route of making the GK's feel all the same where the stats seem to be irrelevant.

[abu97]

I think many would argue that there were many more problems than that, for PES 2011 goalkeepers. I certainly would.

So guys, what do we all think this "Football Life" gamemode is about?

i'm thinking football life is where you start of as a player and when you retire you have an option to become a coach, a manager, an athletic trainer, a scout or even a player's agent

[OnlyProEvo]

Good shout. Hopefully, the ability to become a player manager. Maybe the answer to our calls to be able to switch teams in ML?

[Bish]

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/wenb-pes-2012-playtest-impressions/

Don't know if this info has been posted yet.

[abu97]

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/wenb-pes-2012-playtest-impressions/

Don't know if this info has been posted yet.

Read it all and not fully satisfied - shooting needs tweaking and player fluidity needs to improve. loving the graphics though and gameplay has definitely been levelled up.
Also there will be a podcast on the same site at 11pm today! Hope it's better than the written impressions as they were not entirely helpful as nothing new and surprising

[IronCity]

Really wish I would read something about the ability to shield the ball. Someone on this site mentioned it and since that time I am infatuated with wanting that ability. Tired of being pickpocketed in the corner with my back turned to the defender.

[Bish]

Personally, I haven't noticed the floaty shooting from long range. I've always mastered that ability and when it's done right, it can look great when it hits the net.

[IronCity]

One of the best pieces I gathered from the WE blog is how much better improved PES has gotten for 2012 and how FIFA 12 seems to be a recast from 2011.

[shaun7]

Seems positive, but then again I won't trust previewers. However there seems to be something this year because apparently a lot of annoyances have been fixed. Even the shot feint and defenders catching up. If so, I would be REALLY HAPPY.

[S-D-P]

Seems positive, but then again I won't trust previewers. However there seems to be something this year because apparently a lot of annoyances have been fixed. Even the shot feint and defenders catching up. If so, I would be REALLY HAPPY.

I don't trust previews as much as I used to, this is due to last year and some of the bullshit that was spouted by various outlets. FIFA was called football perfection:huh:, whilst one preview accused pes of 8 way movement and it seemed the mainstream media judged PES after a week of play.

I expect PES 2012 to receive a great reception, this is down to how highly I rate pes 2011 and I trust konami(despite some of the shit they have produced) to build on this, in other words I think some of the hidden depths of 2011 will shine greater in 2012 if that makes sense.

[abu97]

I just find the previewers unreliable and make everything sound positive when in fact it's not - last year, they said pes 2011 AI and goalkeeping has vastly improved and remember a few previewers saying in podcasts that it has the edge to fifa when pes 2011 didn't turn out as good as i expected

[RAMAXWY]

the PES 2011 shout was "the king is back" and in my opinion that was the biggest lie in gaming preview and review history as far as i am aware off, yes i truly think that PES 2011 is that bad.
now they are almost saying the same thing about PES 2012 but just leaving the "king" part behind, so i can honestly say i am a little worried.
the only things i hang on to are the specific things Seabass and most previewers say are improved which really set PES apart from the other football games in the past, all the ingredients that were missing in PES 2011 but are essential if you really want to play football.
other then that everything else sounds too familiar.

[shaun7]

Well in my opinion, the king is back part was not a lie because it was better than fifa 11 for all it's flaws.

@SDP. I also don't trust previewers because they tend to exaggerate the positives.

[Athlon_]

Football Life is likely to be Konami's response to Career Mode in FIFA. Player/player manager/manager transition.

I read the impressions from WENB and apart from shooting all sounds great so far. I hate having to wait even longer for Master League news :realmad:

Though I bet it is much the same as last two years.

Is there any substance to the rumour of a UK September release date?

[OnlyProEvo]

You can expect a normal release, in October.

[abu97]

If it comes out in September, when will the demo be possibly be out?

[OnlyProEvo]

August. But that's a big "if".

In other news - Jon Murphy: We Will "Smash" FIFA. http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/06/jon-murphy-we-will-smash-fifa.html

[RAMAXWY]

Well in my opinion, the king is back part was not a lie because it was better than fifa 11 for all it's flaws.

@SDP. I also don't trust previewers because they tend to exaggerate the positives.

it has always in my opinion been better then FIFA so you can't see that as a standard to reach or to surpass.
KONAMI were the ones who set the footballgaming standards and with all the things missing in PES 2011 how the hell could they,the previewers and reviewers say the king was back.
every PES game has its problems but PES 2011 is by far the worst.
i still have every PES game i ever bought and believe me it is the worst i've come across and has received less playing time of them all.
saying the king is back a year ago and then mentioning all the problems i felt in my first ten games a year after:shocking::no: come on who are they kidding.
the only thing which you can say that has improved at KONAMI is their marketing skills, cause they are really doing it like FIFA nowadays, were when the final product is in your hands it is nowhere near that what they promised it would be.
the biggest problem is that the previewers that we would like to be on our side or helping them, but hey money talks so who could blame them.

[abu97]

to be honest, i wouldn't say pes 2011 is now where near the worst - it's more like a step to the right direction after pes 2009 was so horrible and 2011 is more like a turning point. before pes 3, players in master league did not develop so that was so boring and in pes 2011 they indroduced or revamped a lot of game modes so it's a stepping stone TBH

[RAMAXWY]

to be honest, i wouldn't say pes 2011 is now where near the worst - it's more like a step to the right direction after pes 2009 was so horrible and 2011 is more like a turning point. before pes 3, players in master league did not develop so that was so boring and in pes 2011 they indroduced or revamped a lot of game modes so it's a stepping stone TBH

for me the gameplay is the worst it has ever been and that's the most important part, so all the other area's, game modes may be interesting, polished and improved but when the whistle sounds and the game begins its just sh**.
so at the moment PES is just like FIFA and that is terrible.
on second thought maybe not because they are trying to imitate FIFA so they are on the right track, sucks for me though.

[S-D-P]

I reckon the game will be out on the 7th/8th of october or konami will release the same day as fifa(30th).

I hope they dont fuck with the shooting mechanics in pes 2012 to much, loved the shot system in pes 2011.

[abu97]

i heard pes 2012 is gonna be a week later from the release of f*fa 11 but not sure anout the demo.
The shooting in pes 2011 felt too much automatic so you had no control over your shots and couldn't really place it and instead blast it. i heard in pes 2012 the shootings a bit more floaty and less powerful howver you still don't have enough control over your shots unlike F*FA

[S-D-P]

I need a nice image of the new square nets for some soft porn, konami keep teasing me with snippets but I want full on nets uncensored:w00t

[Amateur]

for me the gameplay is the worst it has ever been and that's the most important part, so all the other area's, game modes may be interesting, polished and improved but when the whistle sounds and the game begins its just sh**.
so at the moment PES is just like FIFA and that is terrible.
on second thought maybe not because they are trying to imitate FIFA so they are on the right track, sucks for me though.

Agreed. I think PES11 showed just how important "fluidity" and "presentation" are, because a lot of people who hated on FIFA09 and FIFA10, started saying that PES11 was similar to FIFA09 as if that was something positive.

As far as I'm concerned, where it matters the most, the game is utter bullshit. I'm not even talking about the so called "basics" that people refer to as, cursor switching, goalkeepers, AI, etc. I'm talking about the actual basics, which are outdated and boring regardless of how good or how bad the AI or Cursor Switching is.

It no longer is about EA Sports offering the casual video game and Konami offering the hardcore video game; it's about which game is less dumb, since both are incredibly casual. Konami and EA Sports have settled down for the same thing: pick up and play video games with little to no substance underneath all the graphics.

I'm just hoping a third party shows up sooner rather than later.

[S-D-P]

@Amateur

Although we have completely different opinions on pes 2011 I will be interested to hear your thoughts on 2012(if you buy the game) I hope the series returns some joy for you, if not I'm sure you'll let us know;).

Really looking forward to seeing the new AI, with the sublime manual passing options 2011 offered this could really open up the game.

[Dean Richmond]

PES 2011 was by far the best pro evo in the series, and if they improve on that then they cant go to far wrong in my opinion.

just for me, a few improvements, some of which are confirmed already

- penalties
- referees
- shooting (maybe)
- AI

[Amateur]

@Amateur

Although we have completely different opinions on pes 2011 I will be interested to hear your thoughts on 2012(if you buy the game) I hope the series returns some joy for you, if not I'm sure you'll let us know;).

Really looking forward to seeing the new AI, with the sublime manual passing options 2011 offered this could really open up the game.

Really. The bottom line is very simple. Jon Murphy: "You can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals."

The fact that you can put your pad down and see how the game plays itself. It's the type of video game that I would have enjoyed right after PES6. Therefore not the type of video game I would enjoy in 2012. After experiencing what PES10 offered, I cannot genuinely enjoy a footy sim where I cannot bend the script of the game to function in accordance to what I want.

Long story short, it's difficult to be excited about PES12 because the main flaw of PES is the lack of user input, and when you can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals, it sounds like lack of user input remains a problem.

[S-D-P]

Really. The bottom line is very simple. Jon Murphy: "You can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals."

The fact that you can put your pad down and see how the game plays itself. It's the type of video game that I would have enjoyed right after PES6. Therefore not the type of video game I would enjoy in 2012. After experiencing what PES10 offered, I cannot genuinely enjoy a footy sim where I cannot bend the script of the game to function in accordance to what I want.

Long story short, it's difficult to be excited about PES12 because the main flaw of PES is the lack of user input, and when you can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals, it sounds like lack of user input remains a problem.


I have to admit that concerned me, some of the automatic AI interventions in pes 2011 are fucking awful, for example unselected players challenge for headers which makes corners feel pre determined.

[Bish]

Really. The bottom line is very simple. Jon Murphy: "You can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals."

The fact that you can put your pad down and see how the game plays itself. It's the type of video game that I would have enjoyed right after PES6. Therefore not the type of video game I would enjoy in 2012. After experiencing what PES10 offered, I cannot genuinely enjoy a footy sim where I cannot bend the script of the game to function in accordance to what I want.

Long story short, it's difficult to be excited about PES12 because the main flaw of PES is the lack of user input, and when you can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals, it sounds like lack of user input remains a problem.

You might be reading too much into that ''put the pad down'' statement. It could just mean when you're not focusing on the gameplay, as if you're watching a game on TV and not following the ball.

I have my fair share of skepticism myself, but I quite like what I've heard so far.

[Amateur]

You might be reading too much into that ''put the pad down'' statement. It could just mean when you're not focusing on the gameplay, as if you're watching a game on TV and not following the ball.

I have my fair share of skepticism myself, but I quite like what I've heard so far.

Perhaps, though I don't think I am reading too much into it. I'm talking about the lack of very simple yet very fundamental improvements that would add considerable depth and substance into the game.

Like for example: off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball.

By holding the L2 button + tapping the short passing button, when in possession of the ball: as a result, a selected midfielder, will run towards the position of the ball wherever the ball is positioned.

The pressure applied on the L2 button, at the time that you pressed and released the short passing button, would determine the speed at which the target will run towards the position of the ball.

Such a simple addition, would not fix any of the core flaws, but it would be a fine addition to have considering the considerable depth it would add to the gameplay. Then adding a simple ground rule, such as, only having the ability of using it twice per play, therefore making it impossible to exploit or over-use. Thus adding depth and substance into the game.

If you had to hold the L2 button + tap the short passing button, in order to manually dictate the script of the game, then it would be impossible to put the pad down and observe how the game plays itself. But we know that's not the case, because the type of improvements that Konami likes, are the type of improvements that you do not control; hence why you can put the pad down and observe how great the game is at playing itself.

The only improvements that we get are completely automatic: improved AI. Which is completely automatic and out of our hands. That's the only type of improvement that we see and that's why I do not think that I'm reading too much into the "put the pad down" statement.

Lack of user input is the main problem with PES11 and FIFA11. What is Konami doing about it? Improving the AI and making it an overall more automatic experience.

How difficult can it be to implement the following off the ball feature: off the ball movement in accordance to the script.

By pressing and releasing the L2 button (without the assistance of the short passing button) when in possession of the ball: the user would dictate the script that would determine the off the ball movement of just one individual.

How difficult is it really?

To design a script composed of three sequences: first sequence, Xavi Hernandez moves from the middle of the pitch to the right flank of the pitch; second sequence, Xavi Hernandez moves from right flank of the pitch to the middle of the pitch; third sequence, Xavi Hernandez moves from the middle of the pitch to the lef flank of the pitch.

First sequence, start at Point A and finish at Point B. Second sequence, start at Point B and finish at Point C. Third sequence, start at Point C and finish at Point D. After the user looses possession of the ball, the individual would automatically move back into Point A.

The first sequence of the script: would be manually triggered by pressing and releasing the L2 button for the first time, when in possession of the ball.

The second sequence of the script: would be manually triggered by pressing and releasing the L2 button for the second time, when in possession of the ball.

The third sequence of the script: would be manually triggered by pressing and releasing the L2 button for the third time, when in possession of the ball.

And the pressure sensitive L2 button would determine the speed at which the target moves through each sequence, there would be three speed settings: the target could move from Point A to Point B at slow pace, the target could move from Point B to Point C at medium pace, and the target could move from Point C to Point D at fast pace.

Therefore the user would have manual control over when and where the target moves without the ball, and the user would also have manual control over the speed at which the target moves without the ball. And this level of depth and freedom would be possible by simply pressing and releasing the L2 button.

That sounds very easy to do and it would be a massive improvement in terms of user input. Yet Konami is incapable of such improvements, for whatever the reason.

Jon Murphy: "We don't want everyone, it's not about that - we want the front runners, the opinion formers, the players who tell their friends "you've got to check out PES this year". We want to bring them back, and I think we can."

That's a very nice thing to read. But the truth is, with the minor changes that Konami is doing, I do not think "opinion formers" will go back to PES because PES12 is awesome; I think it's more a case of FIFA12 is horrible, let's give PES12 a try.

PES12 will be a good game for the people who enjoy PES11, on the other hand, the people who are looking for something different will be disappointed yet again. That's my two cents on PES12 and on the genre as a whole.

[Typho2k]

I actually think fifa 04 had that feature where you pressed a button, then three of your front players would be highlighted, and you could press the button again to switch between em and use the right analogue stick to make them run exactly where you wanted. One of the most perfect things i ever saw in a football game.. :(

back to pes 12.

with ai being smarter, making players give you support and do smart runs, it might get more automated, but i also get more options now since the players dont hide away from my passes... this all sounds very nice to me, cant wait to try play like barca when demo comes out and see if it works, and if it's too easy or not doable or whatever..

[Amateur]

I actually think fifa 04 had that feature where you pressed a button, then three of your front players would be highlighted, and you could press the button again to switch between em and use the right analogue stick to make them run exactly where you wanted. One of the most perfect things i ever saw in a football game.. :(

Although cool for its time, that was flawed. I'm talking about something that would be much more substantial.

back to pes 12.

with ai being smarter, making players give you support and do smart runs, it might get more automated, but i also get more options now since the players dont hide away from my passes... this all sounds very nice to me, cant wait to try play like barca when demo comes out and see if it works, and if it's too easy or not doable or whatever..

It's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, automated gameplay is boring and outdated, period. It's a pick up and play video game where the AI tells you what to do.

[shaun7]

I cannot see the automatic part in that statement. I mean the AI has to move by itself in order for you to pass to them. I mean players moving into open spaces. I think that's what they meant.

[abu97]

Yeah, when players move to spaces, they drag defenders with them as they have tto mark them giving you options for you dribble, shoot, pass or shoot.
And this game won't be abou thorugh balls this time!

[OnlyProEvo]

I need a nice image of the new square nets for some soft porn, konami keep teasing me with snippets but I want full on nets uncensored:w00t

Is this good enough for you?

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/05/nets-issue-has-been-fixed-for-pes-2012.html

[RAMAXWY]

Although cool for its time, that was flawed. I'm talking about something that would be much more substantial.



It's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, automated gameplay is boring and outdated, period. It's a pick up and play video game where the AI tells you what to do.

i think you are hanging towards a much more manual game were everything and really everything is done by the gamer or i am understanding it wrong.
i myself just really want a simulation were really every player is an individual in a team and brings his own thing to that team and you are limited to adjusting them to your liking by his stats or abilities.
i mean i want dani alves to play as he plays and even if you instruct him to go fully defensive he still will occasionally go a.w.o.l cause its in his d.n.a, his nature and imprinted cause of the stats so if you really want to go all defensive you will have to replace players like him for others suiting that formation or tactic.
that to me is how a simulation should be.
the challenge in every game is to be able to counter the way teams play by eliminating their biggest threat.
another challenge is that you will not be able to take every team and play with them in the way you like or are used to because they don't have certain players or lack the abilities.
so i am really looking forward to PES 2012 cause if they really nail this; to let the players operate like individuals in a unit, they will take simulation to a higher level because FIFA you can't even see the difference in players nor can u feel it.
in PES we can all feel it as soon as we get control of the player but to even spot the behavior,runs and mentalities without having to trigger them manually is gonna be great.
you just have to get to know your players just like a real teammate or coach in a team to realize what you can expect, how you can use them effectively and just be on the lookout on game day for your master plan to fall into place or keep adjusting until it does.
we all know that building a great team doesn't happen overnight so i just don't want PES to become a game which gives you the option to have everything fall into place just by pushing a button.
the all manual thing is already being done by the other game so lets keep PES a simulation were the surprises keep you coming back for more.
there is a reason why most get bored of FIFA in a few months and sometimes weeks because u just get the feeling like you've seen it and done it all before but with PES everything should stay fresh in every match.
if they nailed this i can understand why Jon Murphy is so sure they will blow the competition away this year with gameplay.
lets just hope it isn't a marketing stunt like we are used to from FIFA.;)(and KONAMI as of late)

[S-D-P]

Is this good enough for you?

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/05/nets-issue-has-been-fixed-for-pes-2012.html

Thank you that was highly arousing.

[OnlyProEvo]

Haha, you're welcome!

[Amateur]

I cannot see the automatic part in that statement. I mean the AI has to move by itself in order for you to pass to them. I mean players moving into open spaces. I think that's what they meant.

I know what they meant, I just think that type of game is outdated. In real football, in one play, the players who actually touch the ball, more often than not range from 2 to 5 players; with PES and FIFA, all the players move, and you can easily play ping pong by passing the ball all over the pitch.

You can easily run through the midfield without even thinking, because the AI automatically dictates everything for you: outdated and flawed.

The AI has to move itself in order for you to pass the ball, but that does not mean that the AI needs to do whatever it wants, which is what happens with PES11 and FIFA11. My point is simple, the AI should move in accordance to what you want, and you should manually dictate when the AI moves in accordance to your instructions.

In order to do that, the game needs to automatically lock itself, in order to give you full control over the game: you would have control over two players, the ball carrier, and a midfield player moving without the ball.

The midfield player without the ball, would be controlled by simply pressing and releasng the L2 button. Pressing and releasing the L2 button would trigger off the ball movement in accordance to the script: the script would be designed by yourself, and would be composed by numerous sequences.

The first sequence of the script would be triggered by pressing and releasing the L2 button for the first time since you got hold of the ball: as a result, the midfield target would move from Point A to Point B. Point A and Point B could be any position on the pitch.

The second sequence of the script would be triggered by pressing and releasing the L2 button for the second time since you got hold of the ball: as a result, the midfield target would move from Point B to Point C.

Therefore pressing and releasing the L2 button would trigger the script sequence by sequence. The L2 button would also determine the speed at which the midfield target would move from Point A to Point B, from Point B to Point C, from Point C to Point D, etc, etc.

One center forward would also move in accordance to a one sequence script. The one sequence script would not be manually triggered by the user; instead, the one sequence script would trigger itself automatically in accordance to the L2 script. For example, the center forward would move from Point A to Point B, six seconds after the first sequence of the L2 script.

In order to make it easier for the user, there would be little clock on the edge of the screen, which would count the seconds that have passed since you had possession of the ball. For example, if ten seconds have passed since you got hold of the ball, then the little clock would say "10", and if you trigger the first sequence of the L2 script when the clock was at "12", and you know that the center forward will move from Point A to Point B ten seconds after the first sequence of the script, then you know that when the little clock hits "22" the center forward will move from Point A to Point B.

That fixes the complaints of "AI Cheating" because the center forward would never move in accordance to the whims of a computer, instead, the center forward would move in accordance to your specifications. Which can sound trivial, but would make a massive difference to the game.

So controll over one individual (the midfield target), gives you control over numerous individuals (center forward), which is what PES11 and FIFA11 do not offer.

I'm not talking about complicated right analog stick gimmicks, I'm not talking about manually controlling two players at the same time, I'm talking about something very simple: left analog stick to controll the ball carrier, press and release the L2 button in order to dictate the rest of the game, simple.

A third character, perhaps a second stricker or an attacking midfielder, could also automatically move in accordance to a one sequence script. For example, the second stricker will move from Point A to Point B, one second after the third sequence of the L2 script is triggered.

The second stricker script would not be like the center forward script nor like the midfielder script: the off the ball movement of the second stricker would revolve around the position of the midfield target. Meaning that Point A could be any space on the pitch, but Point B would need to be much more speficific.

For example, Point A could be a space on the right flank, that space on the right flank would not change regardless of the position that the midfield target occupies. On the other hand, Point B would need to be a space localized at precisely eight feet of distance between the second stricker and the midfield target, therefore Point B could be many spaces, depending on the movement of the midfield target.

Therefore, again, controll over one individual (the midfield target), gives you control over numerous individuals (center forward and second stricker), which is what PES11 and FIFA11 do not offer, because you only have control over one individual: the ball carrier. And as a result the ball carrier is merely a puppet, since the AI determines what the ball carrier can do with the ball.

The user would have the ability of changing the script of the midfielder, the script of the center forward, and the script of the second stricker, without the necessity of pressing the pause button nor the select button. The midfielder, the center forward, and the second stricker, would each have a total of six scripts from which to choose from.

Then you implement some ground rules into the game, in order to make it impossible for the use to exploit or over-use the scripts. It would only be possible to change the script when not in possession of the ball. The script of the midfielder, can only be changed three times per half. Thus adding improtance to the managerial or tactical aspec of the game.

On the other hand, the script of the center forward and the script of the second stricker, would be unlimited.

Then on top of that, you implement an additional feature: off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, would be specifically reserved for midfielders only. By pressing (without releasing) the L2 button + pressing and releasing the short passing button: a target in the midfield will run towards the position of the ball, wherever the ball might be.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, would be designed to complement with off the ball movement in accordance to the script. It would be possible to dictate off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, a maximum of two times per play: before the first sequence of the midfielder script and after the first sequence of the midfielder script.

If done before the first sequence of the L2 script, then the L2 script can still work after you dictated off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball. On the other hand, when used after the first sequence of the L2 script, then the L2 script will not work until you loose possession of the ball and gain possession of the ball once again.

Of course, such an off the ball system would require a complete overhaul on the defensive end. The L2 script that is used on the attacking end, would also be a benefit for the defensive end of the game, because the computer would know what the ball carrier intends to do, and therefore the computer can be competent on the defensive end without the necessity of AI stunts such as the "Fabio Cannavaro catching up with Cristiano Ronaldo" balancing act.

Again. I'm not talking about complicated right analog stick gimmicks, I'm not talking about manually controlling two players at the same time, I'm talking about something very simple: left analog stick to controll the ball carrier, press and release the L2 button in order to dictate the rest of the game, simple.

With PES and FIFA you do not get the type of freedom that I'm talking about, because in PES and FIFA the AI does whatever it wants, and at the end of the day, that is the biggest flaw with PES and FIFA: the lack of user input, as a result of the complete and utter control the AI has over the game.

A better system for cursor changing, better AI, better GKs, better animations, better graphics, will do nothing to improve the lack of user input. Which is why, at the end of the day, a lot of people will complain about PES12 being "too easy" or about "AI cheating", because better AI will determine what the ball carrier can do with the ball.


PS -- This rant was not meant to be offensive, just making myself clear, that's all.

[Typho2k]

ooooorrr you could just play online 11vs11 for no more ai cheating!















naww.. just kiddin

[shaun7]

@Amateur. Although you are not wrong I cannot say I agree.
Let me explain.
Everything manual including player movements would lose individuality so the fun in the transfers would be gone.

Although we should have a more manual movement, we still shouldn't decide how the player moves exactly, leave that up to the stats. Otherwise every player will be the same.

So in the end I want a game that's semi automatic, where you decide what you want, and the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

[Amateur]

@Amateur. Although you are not wrong I cannot say I agree.
Let me explain.
Everything manual including player movements would lose individuality so the fun in the transfers would be gone.

Although we should have a more manual movement, we still shouldn't decide how the player moves exactly, leave that up to the stats. Otherwise every player will be the same.

So in the end I want a game that's semi automatic, where you decide what you want, and the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

I am a big fan of player individuality, which is why I was such a big fan of the PS2 versions of PES; I cannot see neither how nor why everything manual would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality.

I am 100% sure that more control over the game would only increase the player individuality.

Example: an average center forward would give a very OBVIOUS indication just before he runs from Point A to Point B, thus making it very easy for the defender to read the game. On the other hand, a world class center forward would not give any OBVIOUS indication about anything, therefore making it more difficult for the defender to read what the center forward will do.

Example: average midfielder CANNOT move in certain ways, average midfielder CANNOT move at certain times. On the other hand, Xavi Hernandez can move in an unlimited range of directions, Xavi Hernandez can move at any given time.

That is player individuality applied on the tactical end of the game; the same thing that determines technical attributes such as passing, dribbling, and shooting, can easily be applied on the tactical abilities of the players.

That level of depth does not exist neither in PES nor FIFA. So I could easily say that player individuality is shit in PES, simply because player individuality does not exists in terms of tactical ability.

What you are saying is something that I completely disagree with. So if Xavi Hernandez is an intelligent player, he should do intelligent things without my input?

Therefore, making it virtually impossible to, as a manager, make incorrect use of an intelligent player. Therefore completely undermining the tactical end of the game, completely undermining my footballing brain, since an intelligent player will always react intelligently because that's what the "team play" stat says.... I disagree with that.

If Lio Messi is a great dribbler, he should dribble past three defenders without my input? No. He should simply have more tools than the average player, but he shouldn't automatically dribble past three players regardless of how shit you are at playing the game.

Anyways. I completely disagree with you, I think your point is very negative and outrageously simplistic: "semi-automatic" is just another word for "scripted", and I think scripted gameplay is outdated. I think tactical stats and technical stats should determine the range of things that each player is capable of, however, I do not think stats should determine how I use the stats.

I respect your opinion, but your argument about "every player will be the same" does not make any sense to me.

So in the end I want a game that's semi automatic, where you decide what you want, and the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

That is impossible. You cannot decide what you want when everything you do is predetermined by a script that you have zero control of.

Statistics can and should decide how good the player is at moving without the ball; however, in a video game where the gamer is in control of the entire team, statistics SHOULD NOT decide *when* the statistics work, because doing such a thing, not only undermines the ability of the gamer, but it also undermines the player individuality.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect a fast player who can run past defenders; yet in PES11, regardless of the fact that statistically Samuel Eto'o is a very fast player, somehow, slow defenders such as Fabio Cannavaro can actually catch up with Samuel Eto'o after Samuel Eto'o ran past them. That sounds like the computer decides to undermine the stats.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect him to at least run when it is obvious that he should run; but that does not happen in PES11. In PES11 Samuel Eto'o becomes a dumb zombie *when* the computer decides that Samuel Eto'o should be a dumb zombie, regardless of the fact that the statistics say that Eto'o should be a tactical genius. That's what happens when the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

What's the point of having Samuel Eto'o when the computer can decide that Eto'o will make the run a little too late this time or a little too early that other time, only to watch how the very same computer decides that an average center forward will move at the right time and will score a goal as a result.

That's how the computer makes it possible for an average team to attack once and score once, and for a world class team to attack countless of times with no end result. Because the computer decided that the world class team would have dumbed down center forwards, and the computer decided that the average team would have Romario as the center forward.

That's scripted gameplay. That's what happens in many occasions when you play PES11 and FIFA11. I think it is an outdated concept precisely because it CANNOT fundamentally improve, it can only improve in terms of visuals and in terms of gimmicks, but not fundamentally.

[abu97]

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect a fast player who can run past defenders; yet in PES11, regardless of the fact that statistically Samuel Eto'o is a very fast player, somehow, slow defenders such as Fabio Cannavaro can actually catch up with Samuel Eto'o after Samuel Eto'o ran past them. That sounds like the computer decides to undermine the stats.

.

Yes but if you sign messi, you wouldn't expect a slow midfielder like park ji sung to catch up with him even though this happened in the uefa cl final

[RAMAXWY]

I am a big fan of player individuality, which is why I was such a big fan of the PS2 versions of PES; I cannot see neither how nor why everything manual would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality.

I am 100% sure that more control over the game would only increase the player individuality.

Example: an average center forward would give a very OBVIOUS indication just before he runs from Point A to Point B, thus making it very easy for the defender to read the game. On the other hand, a world class center forward would not give any OBVIOUS indication about anything, therefore making it more difficult for the defender to read what the center forward will do.

Example: average midfielder CANNOT move in certain ways, average midfielder CANNOT move at certain times. On the other hand, Xavi Hernandez can move in an unlimited range of directions, Xavi Hernandez can move at any given time.

That is player individuality applied on the tactical end of the game; the same thing that determines technical attributes such as passing, dribbling, and shooting, can easily be applied on the tactical abilities of the players.

That level of depth does not exist neither in PES nor FIFA. So I could easily say that player individuality is shit in PES, simply because player individuality does not exists in terms of tactical ability.

What you are saying is something that I completely disagree with. So if Xavi Hernandez is an intelligent player, he should do intelligent things without my input?

Therefore, making it virtually impossible to, as a manager, make incorrect use of an intelligent player. Therefore completely undermining the tactical end of the game, completely undermining my footballing brain, since an intelligent player will always react intelligently because that's what the "team play" stat says.... I disagree with that.

If Lio Messi is a great dribbler, he should dribble past three defenders without my input? No. He should simply have more tools than the average player, but he shouldn't automatically dribble past three players regardless of how shit you are at playing the game.

Anyways. I completely disagree with you, I think your point is very negative and outrageously simplistic: "semi-automatic" is just another word for "scripted", and I think scripted gameplay is outdated. I think tactical stats and technical stats should determine the range of things that each player is capable of, however, I do not think stats should determine how I use the stats.

I respect your opinion, but your argument about "every player will be the same" does not make any sense to me.



That is impossible. You cannot decide what you want when everything you do is predetermined by a script that you have zero control of.

Statistics can and should decide how good the player is at moving without the ball; however, in a video game where the gamer is in control of the entire team, statistics SHOULD NOT decide *when* the statistics work, because doing such a thing, not only undermines the ability of the gamer, but it also undermines the player individuality.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect a fast player who can run past defenders; yet in PES11, regardless of the fact that statistically Samuel Eto'o is a very fast player, somehow, slow defenders such as Fabio Cannavaro can actually catch up with Samuel Eto'o after Samuel Eto'o ran past them. That sounds like the computer decides to undermine the stats.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect him to at least run when it is obvious that he should run; but that does not happen in PES11. In PES11 Samuel Eto'o becomes a dumb zombie *when* the computer decides that Samuel Eto'o should be a dumb zombie, regardless of the fact that the statistics say that Eto'o should be a tactical genius. That's what happens when the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

What's the point of having Samuel Eto'o when the computer can decide that Eto'o will make the run a little too late this time or a little too early that other time, only to watch how the very same computer decides that an average center forward will move at the right time and will score a goal as a result.

That's how the computer makes it possible for an average team to attack once and score once, and for a world class team to attack countless of times with no end result. Because the computer decided that the world class team would have dumbed down center forwards, and the computer decided that the average team would have Romario as the center forward.

That's scripted gameplay. That's what happens in many occasions when you play PES11 and FIFA11. I think it is an outdated concept precisely because it CANNOT fundamentally improve, it can only improve in terms of visuals and in terms of gimmicks, but not fundamentally.

i don't think you read my earlier post or you just chose to ignore it but i won't sum it all up again, i'll just say this, a one two pass is basic so i love how that is being implemented in the game but giving a gamer that much control like you are talking about doesn't make the game a simulation anymore if you asked me.
the challenge is to find a formation or playing style that suits you and using the abilities of you players to get the most out of that formation.
so depending on all the stats of the day,fitness,mentality,the total teamwork depending on players that are on the field there will still be room for surprises,challenges but you won't be able to constantly force certain runs and will have to be on the look out for the players runs according to their abilities at that given time, on field situations and your selected formation.
at least that is my opinion on how a simulation should be implemented for a football game.
your great players should excel on their own by making intelligent runs depending on the situation and you should be on the look out for these runs especially when in control of a great passer but to constantly be able to force the issue doesn't sound too good to me and will make the game boring within weeks.
but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.
too give you an example: someone with a footballing brain that spots gaps in a defense easily would be able to take a team like Wigan and beat another gamer with a less defeloped footballing brain all day long even though that guy was controlling BARCELONA because he would be able to trigger runs that the real players of Wigan probably wouldn't dream of cause of their stats, formation or teamwork ratio.
the outcome of every game would be fully depending on the skills of the gamer and not on the selected team or players.
it would be the same like when you select a viper in a GT game and can beat the F1 all day just because you had the skill, because the selected vehicle didn't matter.

[Phat_Tok]

it has always in my opinion been better then FIFA so you can't see that as a standard to reach or to surpass.
KONAMI were the ones who set the footballgaming standards and with all the things missing in PES 2011 how the hell could they,the previewers and reviewers say the king was back.
every PES game has its problems but PES 2011 is by far the worst.
i still have every PES game i ever bought and believe me it is the worst i've come across and has received less playing time of them all.
saying the king is back a year ago and then mentioning all the problems i felt in my first ten games a year after:shocking::no: come on who are they kidding.
the only thing which you can say that has improved at KONAMI is their marketing skills, cause they are really doing it like FIFA nowadays, were when the final product is in your hands it is nowhere near that what they promised it would be.
the biggest problem is that the previewers that we would like to be on our side or helping them, but hey money talks so who could blame them.

Yep, 100% accurate. Ever since next gen consoles have been out Pro Evo has been a bag of shite. Ppl can argue about the pro's and cons of one against another but the day Pro Evo switched over to PS3 it lost the realism and became a shitty version of Fifa. Konami and seabass have yet to see this and more importantly realise this. I dont beleive a sinlge word about how good 2012 will be this, or how it will be that and how they have fixed everyhting. Until I play it i wont beleive anyhting.

[shaun7]

@Amateur. Everything manual means NO STATS INPUT. Why? Because YOU ARE CONTROLLING IT. MORE FREEDOM, I HIGHLY AGREE. AND MORE USER INPUT, A BIG YES, But I want to be able to do everything myself, but then one player does it better than the other because of his stats and 100% manual would mean, no stats involved.

So SEMI AUTO SOLUTION IS THE BEST, where you decide the direction, power, placement, movement, dribbling and stuff like that, but then STATS COME INTO PLAY and some players do it better than others.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

[Amateur]

Yes but if you sign messi, you wouldn't expect a slow midfielder like park ji sung to catch up with him even though this happened in the uefa cl final

Park Ji Sung is slow?

Anyways. The point is simple: how many times does that happen in real life football? and how many times does it happen in PES?

PES is a video game.... freak occurrences such as a slow player catching up with a fast player, are the type of things that can be simulated, only if there is a reason behind the freak occurrence. For example, Messi was very tired and Park Ji Sung was relatively fresh, and that is why a slow player can catch up with a faster player.

But that does not happen with PES. In PES, a slow player will catch up with a faster player, just because, no reason, no logic, simply because the computer randomly decided that the slow player should catch up with a faster player.

If you want that type of bullshit in a video game, that's your opinion, but it certainly makes little sense to have a video game that is supposed to revolve around stats and yet also undermines the stats. A lot of freak occurrences in PES11, but the video game lacks consistency and substance where it matters the most.

i don't think you read my earlier post or you just chose to ignore it but i won't sum it all up again, i'll just say this, a one two pass is basic so i love how that is being implemented in the game but giving a gamer that much control like you are talking about doesn't make the game a simulation anymore if you asked me.
the challenge is to find a formation or playing style that suits you and using the abilities of you players to get the most out of that formation.
so depending on all the stats of the day,fitness,mentality,the total teamwork depending on players that are on the field there will still be room for surprises,challenges but you won't be able to constantly force certain runs and will have to be on the look out for the players runs according to their abilities at that given time, on field situations and your selected formation.
at least that is my opinion on how a simulation should be implemented for a football game.
your great players should excel on their own by making intelligent runs depending on the situation and you should be on the look out for these runs especially when in control of a great passer but to constantly be able to force the issue doesn't sound too good to me and will make the game boring within weeks.
but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.
too give you an example: someone with a footballing brain that spots gaps in a defense easily would be able to take a team like Wigan and beat another gamer with a less defeloped footballing brain all day long even though that guy was controlling BARCELONA because he would be able to trigger runs that the real players of Wigan probably wouldn't dream of cause of their stats, formation or teamwork ratio.
the outcome of every game would be fully depending on the skills of the gamer and not on the selected team or players.
it would be the same like when you select a viper in a GT game and can beat the F1 all day just because you had the skill, because the selected vehicle didn't matter.

What makes you think that?

You are thinking about PES11, an ARCADE game. I am talking about a SIMULATION where even if you can easily "spot the gaps" you cannot easily exploit the gaps, because everything would work around the same rules, nothing would be exploitable: meaning that gaps would not be easy to exploit, regardless of your footballing brain.

Barcelona would win most games, because the stats would be a lot more important than your footballing brain; your footballing brain would make the difference when playing Barcelona vs Real Madrid.

but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.

You could not be more wrong. The wii versions of PES use a completely dumb system which works via the right analog stick. I am not talking about something dumb, such as off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick.

I am talking about something realistic and substantial, such as off the ball movement in accordance to a preset script, off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, and off the ball movement in accordance to a midfield target -- cannot be exploited, because it is impossible to exploit due to numerous reasons.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick -- can be exploited and is extremely dumb, because you can see all the gaps, thanks to the wide view perspective, and then you direct the right analog stick, and the player moves as if he had a radar for a brain -- dumb and easy to exploit, it's basically cheating.

I am not talking about a dumb right analog stick gimmick. I am talking about a substantial football simulation, wrapped into a simple control scheme: left analog stick to control the ball carrier, the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the rest of the game, simple.

I am honestly baffled, by the fact that some people find such a simple control scheme as "too manual". But it's all a matter of opinion, so.... I just think that you are looking too much into PES, which makes it impossible for you to honestly and neutrally consider a different type of game.

@Amateur. Everything manual means NO STATS INPUT. Why? Because YOU ARE CONTROLLING IT. MORE FREEDOM, I HIGHLY AGREE. AND MORE USER INPUT, A BIG YES, But I want to be able to do everything myself, but then one player does it better than the other because of his stats and 100% manual would mean, no stats involved.

So SEMI AUTO SOLUTION IS THE BEST, where you decide the direction, power, placement, movement, dribbling and stuff like that, but then STATS COME INTO PLAY and some players do it better than others.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

Directing the right analog stick, and a player moving without the ball in accordance to how you direct the right analog stick -- no stats input.

Creating a script, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and a player moving in accordance to the preset script -- does not affect the stats in any way, shape, or form.

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.

You are talking about stats determining how and when you use the stats. Therefore a player with a good "footballing brain" stat, would not be affected by the lack of footballing brain of the gamer.

Of course. The problem that this creates. Is that, since the gamer does not have control over the SCRIPT that determines how the stats are used: as a result, the gamer cannot possibly determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT.

And if the gamer cannot determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT: as a result, you get a video game that CANNOT fundamentally improve, because it is massively flawed at its foundation, where it matters the most.

Semi-auto is complete and utter bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. The same stats based concept could be applied to a completely manual game, it's just a matter of giving more precision to certain players and giving less precision to certain players.

Therefore the meaning of "semi-automatic" in my opinion is bullshit, because you could describe a completely manual system as "semi-automatic" just because the stats determine the range of things that each player can do.

Again. I do not understand your "semi-automatic" argument. The passing system of PES11 could be completely different and STILL take the stats into account, it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the passing system of PES5 was completely different, and it STILL took the stats into account.

What makes you think the system that I'm talking about would not take the stats into account? That's the part of your argument that I do not understand.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

I think you are conveniently talking about the good aspect of the game, but you are conveniently ignoring the negative aspect of the concept that you are defending: movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer, and movement without the ball, at the end of the day, is just as important as passing the ball.

It does not matter how refined the passing system is, if the movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer.

I'm not making a convenient argument, I'm talking about the loose ends of PES, and how the mentioned "loose ends" can be fixed, and the fact that the mentioned "loose ends" cannot be fixed by simply refining the passing and shooting system.

I'm talking about expanding the player individuality into the tactical end of the game, and at the same time fixing the old "AI cheating" complaints; and you respond by saying that what I'm talking about would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality. I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

I can understand if you simply want a more simplistic experience such as PES11 or FIFA11, since it is a matter of opinion at the end of the day. But to say that implementing substance into the game, would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality, is just a very convenient and FALSE argument.

Yep, 100% accurate. Ever since next gen consoles have been out Pro Evo has been a bag of shite. Ppl can argue about the pro's and cons of one against another but the day Pro Evo switched over to PS3 it lost the realism and became a shitty version of Fifa. Konami and seabass have yet to see this and more importantly realise this. I dont beleive a sinlge word about how good 2012 will be this, or how it will be that and how they have fixed everyhting. Until I play it i wont beleive anyhting.

I do not 100% agree with you, though, I think PES12 will be a disappointment because the formula that Konami and EA Sports are using, is a formula that I strongly believe CANNOT improve anymore.

At the end of the day. I think people will complain about PES12 "not being enough of an improvement" or about "AI cheating" or about "PES12 is too easy", etc.

Because at the end of the day, Konami is just improving the AI, the ball physics, the animations, etc. Which are things that do nothing to fix the core flaws such as "AI cheating".

[Typho2k]

in pes 11, the defenders catching up is a script thingy which will be gone in 12 they say..

Its time amateur studied game development i think :D

[Amateur]

in pes 11, the defenders catching up is a script thingy which will be gone in 12 they say..

Its time amateur studied game development i think :D

The "script thingy" cannot be fixed, because the "script thingy" is the foundation of PES. PES12 will have the "script thingy" without a doubt, maybe in a slightly different way, but it will be there at the end of the day.

PES12 will only offer a new cursor change system and improved AI, but other than that, the decade old flaws will remain. PES12 is just a yearly update; what makes you think one year is enough to fix a flaw that has not been fixed in ten years?

[shaun7]

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.
That was my POINT EXACTLY. This is what I want, however if stats come into play, then it's NOT MANUAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE AI USES THE PLAYER'S STATS TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME of something. So in the end, that's called semi auto, where you combine you skill and how you play, with the set of player's abilities.

Ans seriously, scripting has nothing to do with this, AI cheating? Yes, but scripting is a EASY WAY OUT for the developers to make the game SEEM HARD. It can be reduced but it can never go away.

Also, I want a different type of game NOT JUST PES, what was up with that? I mentioned that pes 11 was FULLY AUTO in the shooting and stuff like that AND I WANT A CHANGE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS AND FREEDOM. That for me, means that I WANT A BETTER PES.

If you're talking about a fully manual game, GO PLAY FIFA 10, seriously, it does it really well. Almost everything is manual. But guess what? The transfers will become irrelevant, speed and strength would be overrated badly since those 2 are the only 2 attributes that matter in manual and every team will be the same and all the goals will be the same. WHY? Because manual means you control everything and the stats do little to none.

[RAMAXWY]

Park Ji Sung is slow?

Anyways. The point is simple: how many times does that happen in real life football? and how many times does it happen in PES?

PES is a video game.... freak occurrences such as a slow player catching up with a fast player, are the type of things that can be simulated, only if there is a reason behind the freak occurrence. For example, Messi was very tired and Park Ji Sung was relatively fresh, and that is why a slow player can catch up with a faster player.

But that does not happen with PES. In PES, a slow player will catch up with a faster player, just because, no reason, no logic, simply because the computer randomly decided that the slow player should catch up with a faster player.

If you want that type of bullshit in a video game, that's your opinion, but it certainly makes little sense to have a video game that is supposed to revolve around stats and yet also undermines the stats. A lot of freak occurrences in PES11, but the video game lacks consistency and substance where it matters the most.



What makes you think that?

You are thinking about PES11, an ARCADE game. I am talking about a SIMULATION where even if you can easily "spot the gaps" you cannot easily exploit the gaps, because everything would work around the same rules, nothing would be exploitable: meaning that gaps would not be easy to exploit, regardless of your footballing brain.

Barcelona would win most games, because the stats would be a lot more important than your footballing brain; your footballing brain would make the difference when playing Barcelona vs Real Madrid.



You could not be more wrong. The wii versions of PES use a completely dumb system which works via the right analog stick. I am not talking about something dumb, such as off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick.

I am talking about something realistic and substantial, such as off the ball movement in accordance to a preset script, off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, and off the ball movement in accordance to a midfield target -- cannot be exploited, because it is impossible to exploit due to numerous reasons.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick -- can be exploited and is extremely dumb, because you can see all the gaps, thanks to the wide view perspective, and then you direct the right analog stick, and the player moves as if he had a radar for a brain -- dumb and easy to exploit, it's basically cheating.

I am not talking about a dumb right analog stick gimmick. I am talking about a substantial football simulation, wrapped into a simple control scheme: left analog stick to control the ball carrier, the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the rest of the game, simple.

I am honestly baffled, by the fact that some people find such a simple control scheme as "too manual". But it's all a matter of opinion, so.... I just think that you are looking too much into PES, which makes it impossible for you to honestly and neutrally consider a different type of game.



Directing the right analog stick, and a player moving without the ball in accordance to how you direct the right analog stick -- no stats input.

Creating a script, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and a player moving in accordance to the preset script -- does not affect the stats in any way, shape, or form.

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.

You are talking about stats determining how and when you use the stats. Therefore a player with a good "footballing brain" stat, would not be affected by the lack of footballing brain of the gamer.

Of course. The problem that this creates. Is that, since the gamer does not have control over the SCRIPT that determines how the stats are used: as a result, the gamer cannot possibly determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT.

And if the gamer cannot determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT: as a result, you get a video game that CANNOT fundamentally improve, because it is massively flawed at its foundation, where it matters the most.

Semi-auto is complete and utter bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. The same stats based concept could be applied to a completely manual game, it's just a matter of giving more precision to certain players and giving less precision to certain players.

Therefore the meaning of "semi-automatic" in my opinion is bullshit, because you could describe a completely manual system as "semi-automatic" just because the stats determine the range of things that each player can do.

Again. I do not understand your "semi-automatic" argument. The passing system of PES11 could be completely different and STILL take the stats into account, it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the passing system of PES5 was completely different, and it STILL took the stats into account.

What makes you think the system that I'm talking about would not take the stats into account? That's the part of your argument that I do not understand.



I think you are conveniently talking about the good aspect of the game, but you are conveniently ignoring the negative aspect of the concept that you are defending: movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer, and movement without the ball, at the end of the day, is just as important as passing the ball.

It does not matter how refined the passing system is, if the movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer.

I'm not making a convenient argument, I'm talking about the loose ends of PES, and how the mentioned "loose ends" can be fixed, and the fact that the mentioned "loose ends" cannot be fixed by simply refining the passing and shooting system.

I'm talking about expanding the player individuality into the tactical end of the game, and at the same time fixing the old "AI cheating" complaints; and you respond by saying that what I'm talking about would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality. I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

I can understand if you simply want a more simplistic experience such as PES11 or FIFA11, since it is a matter of opinion at the end of the day. But to say that implementing substance into the game, would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality, is just a very convenient and FALSE argument.



I do not 100% agree with you, though, I think PES12 will be a disappointment because the formula that Konami and EA Sports are using, is a formula that I strongly believe CANNOT improve anymore.

At the end of the day. I think people will complain about PES12 "not being enough of an improvement" or about "AI cheating" or about "PES12 is too easy", etc.

Because at the end of the day, Konami is just improving the AI, the ball physics, the animations, etc. Which are things that do nothing to fix the core flaws such as "AI cheating".

lets get this right, i hate PES 2011 SO I AM NOT IN ANY WAY HOPING FOR A REPEAT.
you don't want the same thing the wii game is offering at the moment, so thank god, other then that i don't really understand how you want this implemented and be able to trigger this with a button manually without messing up the meaning of the stats and formations.
if you mean being able to program predetermend runs in training, and your formations by your players so you know what to expect and can play exactly like you trained and programmed, it sounds great, but i still think you shouldn't be able to force it manually.
you should be on the look out for the opportunity in the match to execute this move when everyone is in position and the outcome would be depending on the stats, opponent etc but if its not that you mean then it still sounds too manual for me but hey lets hope they implement that as an option which you can turn on or off cause in the long run we are all paying for the game and should be able to get what we want but that of course is just theory.

[shaun7]

^So you're with me for the next pes?
A more user input game without messing the stats up?

I want a semi auto game. Where you decide everything like shots, passes, dribbling and stuff like that, basically the directions and THE GAME LISTENS TO YOU and then the stats come into play and players execute them differently depending on the stats.

[abu97]

i would rather have a half individual and a half statwise game because what is the point of messi not acting like messi. so you shouldn't have it ful individual or it would ruin master league on dynamic (if they still will put up that mode on pes 2012)

[RAMAXWY]

^So you're with me for the next pes?
A more user input game without messing the stats up?

I want a semi auto game. Where you decide everything like shots, passes, dribbling and stuff like that, basically the directions and THE GAME LISTENS TO YOU and then the stats come into play and players execute them differently depending on the stats.

Yes, that's my idea of a simulation. Can't seem to understand how it would work if they implemented what he is suggesting. It makes the stats seem useless to me.

[Moyesavelian]

The only way they can make a true sim is if they made it 90 minutes a game .Not going to happen pes is not a sim and never will be or has been.I actuaally like the players being able to catch up to faster players because it encourages more football in multiplayer.You guys are demanding way way too much for a yearly updated game and are going to be disapointed again.It's only a game just enjoy it .

[Amateur]

That was my POINT EXACTLY. This is what I want, however if stats come into play, then it's NOT MANUAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE AI USES THE PLAYER'S STATS TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME of something. So in the end, that's called semi auto, where you combine you skill and how you play, with the set of player's abilities.

I never described my idea as "manual". I mean, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and the player moving in accordance to a preset script CANNOT be described as something "manual".

Though having said that. I am talking about the stats determining how and when I can use the stats, but without randomly deciding things that I never wanted in the first place.

For example. Xavi Hernandez would have the ability of moving at any given time. Therefore pressing and releasing the L2 button, at any given time, would result with Xavi Hernandez moving from Point A to Point B.

On the other hand. An average midfielder, would *not* have the ability of moving at any given time. Therefore pressing and releasing the L2 button *when* the ball carrier is being man marked, would do nothing, because the average midfielder cannot move *once* the ball carrier is engaged in a one on one battle.

That's an example of STATS determining *when* I can use the stats, without the necessity of stats taking over the game and deciding things that you never wanted in the first place.

The stats could also determine *how* I can use the stats, because the stats could determine the range of directions in which a player can run without the ball, without the necessity of taking over the game. Such a concept could be described as "semi-automatic" because the stats would determine the range of things that each player can do; however, I do not want a "semi-automatic" system where the stats take over the game.

Hence the massive difference between the AI thinking for you, and, the AI merely giving you more tools to do more intelligent things.

Xavi Hernandez having unlimited range of directions and the ability to move at any given time, enables you to do more intelligent things with Xavi Hernandez than with the average midfilder. Yet the massive difference is, that Xavi Hernandez would not automatically do intelligent things simply because the AI is pulling the strings for you.

A gamer who lacks a footballing brain might not know how to make the best use of Xavi Hernandez; however, that would not change the fact that Xavi Hernandez is statistically equipped to do more intelligent things than the average player.

On the other hand. When the AI thinks for you. It means that Xavi Hernandez will do intelligent things without your input as a gamer, and in doing such a thing, the video game becomes an automatic arcade game.

Hence the massive difference between the gamer determining how and when he uses the stats, as opposed to the stats determining how and when the gamer uses the stats. Sounds trivial, but the difference is revolutionary.

CHESS is a game that revolves around player individuality, yet a computer is not determining when and how you use your pieces. The fact that the gamer has complete control over how and when he uses his pieces does not affect the player individuality in any way.

Ans seriously, scripting has nothing to do with this, AI cheating? Yes, but scripting is a EASY WAY OUT for the developers to make the game SEEM HARD. It can be reduced but it can never go away.

The SCRIPT is completely necessary due to numerous facts; however, as I was saying, the gamer could have control over the SCRIPT as opposed to the SCRIPT having control over the gamer.

That's the massive game changer. The game would still be SCRIPTED, but the game would be scripted by yourself. The AI would not think for you, the AI would act in accordance to your instructions. Therefore your footballing brain would gain more importance, but without undermining the stats of the players.

Hence why I mentioned the idea of creating the SCRIPT and manually triggering the script by pressing and releasing the L2 button. Because it would fix the "AI cheating" flaw, which is a core flaw. And at the same time, would not undermine the stats, and would actually maximize the player individuality. Therefore making it a win-win solution to a massive flaw.

Also, I want a different type of game NOT JUST PES, what was up with that? I mentioned that pes 11 was FULLY AUTO in the shooting and stuff like that AND I WANT A CHANGE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS AND FREEDOM. That for me, means that I WANT A BETTER PES.

If you're talking about a fully manual game, GO PLAY FIFA 10, seriously, it does it really well. Almost everything is manual. But guess what? The transfers will become irrelevant, speed and strength would be overrated badly since those 2 are the only 2 attributes that matter in manual and every team will be the same and all the goals will be the same. WHY? Because manual means you control everything and the stats do little to none.

FIFA11 is not really manual, because it cannot be manual, because the passing system cannot be manual due to numerous reasons.

FIFA11 is not manual in any respect. It is a flawed formula that cannot be manual. It is scripted gameplay with irrelevant gimmicks that give it a "manual" feel to it.

Long story short. FIFA has always been a shit game. The off the ball feature where you tap the shoulder button and the center forward runs forwards into space, is representative of what FIFA is: a scripted video game with irrelevant gimmicks that give it a "manual" feel to it.

You tap the shoulder button and as a result the center forward runs forwards into space: feels and looks manual, but in fact it is scripted and insubstantial.

I also want more freedom, but before having more freedom on the technical areas of the game, I think it should be higher on the list of priorities to actually have a foundation on which to build on, which is what PES11 does not have.

PES11 does not have a foundation on which to build on, Konami is simply perfecting the technical areas of the game, but the foundation of the game remains the same. Technical improvements can only go so far when the foundation of the game makes it impossible to improve, which is what is happening with the PES and FIFA series.

I think fixing the core flaws of PES should be the top priority, and after having a foundation on which to build on, then you focus on the technical areas of the game.

lets get this right, i hate PES 2011 SO I AM NOT IN ANY WAY HOPING FOR A REPEAT.
you don't want the same thing the wii game is offering at the moment, so thank god, other then that i don't really understand how you want this implemented and be able to trigger this with a button manually without messing up the meaning of the stats and formations.
if you mean being able to program predetermend runs in training, and your formations by your players so you know what to expect and can play exactly like you trained and programmed, it sounds great, but i still think you shouldn't be able to force it manually.
you should be on the look out for the opportunity in the match to execute this move when everyone is in position and the outcome would be depending on the stats, opponent etc but if its not that you mean then it still sounds too manual for me but hey lets hope they implement that as an option which you can turn on or off cause in the long run we are all paying for the game and should be able to get what we want but that of course is just theory.

We agree on one thing for sure, neither of us likes PES 2011. But as far as my idea goes, you are not looking at the bigger picture, in terms of how much the player individuality would improve as a result of such an off the ball system.

You implement different types of movement without the ball. And then you implement statistical importance into the tactical end of the game. For example, certain players would have the ability of moving at any given time, whereas the average player would not have the ability of moving at any given time; certain players would have an unlimited range of directions in which to run without the ball, whereas the average player would have limited directions in which to run without the ball, etc.

I know that the video game cannot fundamentally improve if the gamer cannot manually trigger predetermined runs.

I am talking about manually triggering the off the ball movement of just ONE individual; you would not manually trigger the off the ball movement of the center forward nor the off the ball movement of the second stricker, the off the ball movement of the mentioned targets would automatically trigger itself in accordance to your specifications. Therefore you are not "manually forcing" anything really.

The game would still feel organic and uncertain, because you would not exactly know how things would play out.

[S-D-P]

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/jon-murphy-pes-2012-video-blog/

Murphy blog with some interesting news, like what I'm hearing so far.

[Amateur]

The only way they can make a true sim is if they made it 90 minutes a game .Not going to happen pes is not a sim and never will be or has been.I actuaally like the players being able to catch up to faster players because it encourages more football in multiplayer.You guys are demanding way way too much for a yearly updated game and are going to be disapointed again.It's only a game just enjoy it .

That's not true at all mate. Have you ever seen 10 MINUTE highlights? 20 MINUTE highlights?

It is true that it is impossible to produce a proper football simulation if you want to squeeze all the substance into a 5 MINUTE game. However, 10 MINUTES and 20 MINUTES are more than enough to produce a true sim.

Therefore, I disagree with you. I do not think that I expect too much from a video game. I think that I am merely a REALISTIC person whom is asking for his money's worth. A PS3 console is quite expensive, and I'm playing shitty video games like PES11. Hey, I'm just asking for my money's worth, nothing more and nothing less.

Unrealistic expectations? Not at all. I merely know when a video game CANNOT improve anymore due to numerous facts, and with such a realization, as a consumer, it is logical to ask for something that can actually improve. I mean, what is the point of supporting a product that has no potential to improve?

It's only a video game? It is worth 60 dollars on a yearly basis. It sells millions of copies on a yearly basis. It is a powerful industry. I do not think you take it seriously enough.

I guess this is the difference between blatant FANBOYS who will like anything the company produces, and realistic people who are fed up of the yearly updates that remain inconclusive after a decade of development.

Do you think it should be deemed as acceptable that five years after PES5 we are playing PES11?

FIVE YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT!! and PES11 is the best "evolution" they can produce? Give me a break. I am not demanding too much at all.

It's called research. When you start supporting product, you might do some research on what Konami has previously produced. The ISS series, started in 1995, was a more clever concept than PES. The PES series, started in 2001, is a dumbed down version of ISS, more automatic because it revolves more around stats rather than ability.

So that's a total of 16 years since Konami started producing footy sims. And it shows a clear trend of dumbing down the product, in order to make the product more appealing to a wider audience . Which as a result, means that the "EVOLUTION" has not actually been an evolution, because the product has been dumbed down, the product has not actually improved for the better.

16 YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT!! That is why yearly updates are inconclusive, because the company is interested in making more money, the company is not genuinely interested in making a better product.

You would think that Konami would replace the ISS series with something better, due to the money that you, as a consumer, have invested into the series. But that's just wishful thinking, because Konami will use your money in order to produce a dumber product that can be appealing to a wider audience, in order to make more money!!

Therefore, yearly updates are inconclusive, because the product that you liked and supported five years ago, will get dumber and dumber down the line: it will not improve for the better, it will never be as good as you would hope, it is an inconclusive and repetitive and very successful business.

Am I asking for too much? No. I just think, and I have reason to think, that five years down the line, we will be playing a dumbed down version of PES which will be appealing to a wider audience. The game will be utter shit at its core, but a wider audience will find it appealing.

As a consumer, I am complaining and talking about better ways of playing a footy sim. There is always the possibility that a company is reading the complaints from certain fans of the PES and FIFA series, and that the company will look to produce exactly what Konami and EA Sports do not want to produce.

[Moyesavelian]

I take this serious enough .You just expect too much from a game that's updated yearly.Every time i read your posts it's always six paragraphs of nothing.Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action(go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead and they've got the balance perfect for 10 minute matches.it's just the tinted glasses of great games like pes 3/5/6 that people deprecating new pes games because everyone's getting older and being able to put up with less annoying things.Like older pes's were fucking riddled with flaws but we overlooked them because we were younger and not so critical ..
I like how you got a jab in about me being a pes fan boy , maybe your right but i only enjoy pes as fifa is to easy and the learning curve is a week at maximum .
Tbh though i would love for ea to shit on konami and produce the better game for all it's fancy dress etc..

Every year i give both both game an equal chance ,even when pes 2008 was released i preferred it over fifa release because pes you can always tune into and play a great game of multi-player offline or on with like minded individuals.
The only games that can be classed as a real sim is games like gtr/race 07 and certain other pc racing games .
If you think about football played worldwide, it is quite a tedius game majority of the time with fits and bursts in the 90 minutes .If they made pes too realistic it would be an abortion.I think pes 2011 with fixed responsiveness and cursor switching , toned down through balls on the ground and fixed referees would be amazing.


My pc costs alot more than a ps3 but i'm not bitching ,i don't expect the world every year when pes is released because it's yearly updated game.If it had been in the works for 3 years then that would be different.Despite stupid flaws what god only knows how the play testers didn't see or unless they had no time to fix them before the release they have done a great job of moving the series on in the space since 2010 was released.

[abu97]

Yeah, for me pes 2011 is hundreds times better than pes 6 because i am only 14 and i am young so pes 2011 is so better. Every game has it's negatives but pes 6 - no power gauge, passing was too automatic, goalies were crap and animations were worse and master league as crap. All hardcore pes gamers prefer old-gen rather than next-gen. I'm next-gen so i prefer pes 2011 or 2012

[Moyesavelian]

Don't worry you'll become a moaning cunt as well in a few years despite the quality of the new pes'shttp://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/lol/smiley-lol.gif.

[Amateur]

I take this serious enough .You just expect too much from a game that's updated yearly.Every time i read your posts it's always six paragraphs of nothing.Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action(go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead and they've got the balance perfect for 10 minute matches.it's just the tinted glasses of great games like pes 3/5/6 that people deprecating new pes games because everyone's getting older and being able to put up with less annoying things.Like older pes's were fucking riddled with flaws but we overlooked them because we were younger and not so critical ..
I like how you got a jab in about me being a pes fan boy , maybe your right but i only enjoy pes as fifa is to easy and the learning curve is a week at maximum .
Tbh though i would love for ea to shit on konami and produce the better game for all it's fancy dress etc..

Every year i give both both game an equal chance ,even when pes 2008 was released i preferred it over fifa release because pes you can always tune into and play a great game of multi-player offline or on with like minded individuals.
The only games that can be classed as a real sim is games like gtr/race 07 and certain other pc racing games .
If you think about football played worldwide, it is quite a tedius game majority of the time with fits and bursts in the 90 minutes .If they made pes too realistic it would be an abortion.I think pes 2011 with fixed responsiveness and cursor switching , toned down through balls on the ground and fixed referees would be amazing.


My pc costs alot more than a ps3 but i'm not bitching ,i don't expect the world every year when pes is released because it's yearly updated game.If it had been in the works for 3 years then that would be different.Despite stupid flaws what god only knows how the play testers didn't see or unless they had no time to fix them before the release they have done a great job of moving the series on in the space since 2010 was released.

Or maybe. Just maybe. Old PES games such as PES5 and PES6 were released in 2005 and 2006. Meaning that at the time, flawed video games such as PES5 and PES6 were certainly good enough.

On the other hand. The video game that you hilariously described as "substantial" is in fact one of the dumbest video games ever made, in year 2011, and that's why it is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I do not think it has anything to do with my age. I think it has everything to do with the fact that Konami and EA Sports have not even attempted to do something innovative in the last six years. The years of experience of playing PES or FIFA or ISS, would have made me critical regardless of my age.

If I start playing PES when I'm ten years old. By the time that I'm 18 and I realize that Konami and EA Sports have not done anything innovative in the last eight years; as a fan of the series, I will certainly complain about it. I could be 25 years old or 14 years old, it has little to do with the age of the consumer, and more to do with the experience and knowledge of the consumer: a 14 year old kid could easily be better informed than a 25 year old adult who just started playing footy arcade games.

To suggest that making PES "too realistic" would be an abortion, is complete and utter bullshit, based on nothing concrete. On one hand, it is flat out impossible to make a footy sim too realistic, simply because it is impossible due to mathematical reasons. On the other hand, PES11 is an abortion, as far as I'm concerned.

Bottom line. You are a consumer who makes generic, false, and convenient, statements or arguments. I'm just talking about something quite simple, and unlike you, my ideas or opinions are based on something objective, as opposed to the fact that you think PES11 is substantial regardless of the numerous facts which show you how substantial PES11 really is. Unlike you, I'm not going around telling people that their expectations are too high or too low, because it contributes absolutely nothing to the content of the conversation.

You said that my expectations are too high. I responded to your comment. Simple. But I guess you like talking about how you think that PES11 is substantial, and how you think that my expectations are too high, and how you think that I bitch too much about the game, etc, etc. You obviously do not understand nor care about my point of view, but you wanted to say something anyways.

Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action (go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead

The quoted sentence sums it all up. I should go play PES08 because that's what I want, which is why I spend time talking about new concepts to make the game slower and more substantial. And of course, somehow, PES11 is too substantial for me to handle, which is why I complain about PES11 being a dumbed down video game.

At the end of the day. You are correct. I just want non stop action like PES08, and PES11 is simply too substantial for my fickle mind to comprehend.

[Moyesavelian]

At the end of the day. You are correct. I just want non stop action like PES08, and PES11 is simply too substantial for my fickle mind to comprehend.

Very humble of you.
Thanks.

[abu97]

I find pes 2011 a way more challenging game than pes 4,5,6 as the graphics and gameplay are better. I got bored of pes 4 after a month or two and still find pes 2011 excitIng apart from the AI and i think the only reason people think pes 4,5,6 is better than pes 2011 is because fifa was crap at those times - eg if fifa was better than pes 6, everyone would say pes 6 is worse. I fifa were crap this year, everyone would say pes 2011 is better. However it hink outside the box and ignore fifa and pes 2011 for me is one fof the best games konami have made (including other genre games)
BTW, this is my opinion, not yours so don't insult me if you don't agree

[Amateur]

I find pes 2011 a way more challenging game than pes 4,5,6 as the graphics and gameplay are better. I got bored of pes 4 after a month or two and still find pes 2011 excitIng apart from the AI and i think the only reason people think pes 4,5,6 is better than pes 2011 is because fifa was crap at those times - eg if fifa was better than pes 6, everyone would say pes 6 is worse. I fifa were crap this year, everyone would say pes 2011 is better. However it hink outside the box and ignore fifa and pes 2011 for me is one fof the best games konami have made (including other genre games)
BTW, this is my opinion, not yours so don't insult me if you don't agree

When was the first time you played PES5?

I think PES5 and PES6 were good enough for their time, the stats concept was still relatively innovative at the time, the game felt like it was going places, etc.

But then five years down the line, you notice that the game has not fundamentally improved at all. So I think it's mostly a matter of when you started supporting the PES series. If you had never played footy sims, and you suddenly play PES11, you will think that PES11 is an innovative video game with addictive gameplay.

On the other hand. If you have played the ISS series, the PS2 versions of PES, then you might find that PES11 is not innovative at all, not good enough considering the potential of current gen consoles, particularly after five or six years of development have passed since video games like PES5.

Anyways. I will not insult you for having an opinion. It's when you use your opinion to argue points such as how high or how low my expectations are, that your opinion becomes an annoyance. Other than that, I have no problem at all with your opinion.

[abu97]

Yeah your probably right, im not much of an experienced player and my first pes was pes 4 then pes 6 and that was 4 years ago. But the graphics were very terrible i definitely know

[Amateur]

Yeah your probably right, im not much of an experienced player and my first pes was pes 4 then pes 6 and that was 4 years ago. But the graphics were very terrible i definitely know

I also started at PES4 or PES3, more or less at the same time as you, and I just cannot find PES11 as innovative as PES5 was five years back. Anyways. It's just a matter of opinion.

[Moyesavelian]

PES has alway's been like an arcade game if you want to play it like that! but imo pes 2011 is fucking amazing when you play someone who plays build up football. The only thing that spoils it is you can't hold your defensive line you've always got to be tracking back with a player because you can't rely on the defender to track the attacker when facing a clever player, who always get the timing right on ther passes.But for slow technical football pes 2011 is so far ahead of every other pes that preceded it.I've played so many online game and i'm still seeing new thinks nearly every match.That's why i've always loved pes the random things that happens.Also i'd still say i'm still improving my game.
If they fixed the cursor switching / Defender tracking player's better /through balls on the ground toned down it would be class.
Yes the series has been been quite dissapointing on next gen consoles apart from pes 6 on the 360 .But come on you cannot say there's been noimprovement since last years 2010 game.The improvements have been huge.
Single player is shite though and referees i don't remember ever being this bad on even iss.
Pes 5 the stats were still relatively new ?Really:/.
Compare pes 3 too 6.
Pes 2008 to 2011.
The series is more innovative than you give it credit.
But they will never top the innovation of pes 2 too pes3 .

[Amateur]

PES has alway's been like an arcade game if you want to play it like that! but imo pes 2011 is fucking amazing when you play someone who plays build up football. The only thing that spoils it is you can't hold your defensive line you've always got to be tracking back with a player because you can't rely on the defender to track the attacker when facing a clever player, who always get the timing right on ther passes.But for slow technical football pes 2011 is so far ahead of every other pes that preceded it.I've played so many online game and i'm still seeing new thinks nearly every match.That's why i've always loved pes the random things that happens.Also i'd still say i'm still improving my game.
If they fixed the cursor switching / Defender tracking player's better /through balls on the ground toned down it would be class.
Yes the series has been been quite dissapointing on next gen consoles apart from pes 6 on the 360 .But come on you cannot say there's been noimprovement since last years 2010 game.The improvements have been huge.
Single player is shite though and referees i don't remember ever being this bad on iss.

First of all, my apologies for my exaggerated reaction a few posts back, I have a bad habit of overreacting, particularly when discussing PES.

As for PES. I agree with the point that PES11 offers more than the PS2 versions of PES. My main frustration with the series is that you can still play it like an arcade game if you want to, Konami is still trying to be appealing to as many people as possible, and that's a massive limitation on the evolution of the genre.

There has been improvement, but in my opinion the improvement is in unimportant areas, the fundamental areas remain as flawed as ever. To be honest, I would be completely satisfied with PES11 if I had not discovered the hidden tricks that PES10 offered.

Once I experienced the massive difference, of knowing that when I hold the L2 button + tap the short passing button: this player will move horizontally (without the ball) across the width of the pitch, towards the left flank of the pitch. And I also know that by doing the same thing again, the same player will move horizontally (without the ball) across the width of the pitch, towards the right flank of the pitch.

It gives you the freedom to create great passing angles, it gives you the freedom to determine where you begin your attack and where you finish your attack: PES10 offered that freedom, hidden underneath all the shitty animations, and the potential is impressive.

There is simply no way I will ever be genuinely entertained by just controlling the ball carrier and nothing else, because I already experienced just how fun it is to control the ball carrier and to control the script that determines the options of the ball carrier. PES10 is the concrete evidence on which I base most of my criticism.

If the idea of dictating the script of the game, works extremely well in a video game that was not designed to function around user-dictated scripts; that is, a video game where the computer does not know what the script will do, a video game where the computer does not control the amount of times that the script can be bended/manipulated by the user, etc.

If it works surprisingly well in a video game that was not designed to function around user-dictated scripts; imagine how well it would function in a video game that revolves around the idea of user-dictated scripts?

The result would be a video game where the computer would in fact know what the script will do. Therefore making it a video game where the computer, on the defensive end of the game, would automatically cursor change itself -- therefore getting rid of the necessity of pressing a button just to change from one player to another player, getting rid of the time that it takes to press one button in order to do something that does not add anything to the entertainment value of the game -- in order to give you actual control over the game, because that second that was previously used on something redundant, would now be used for something that would add a great deal of depth and structure to the game.

The player in possession of the ball, would trigger the script that he designed. And the computer would know what the script will do before the script is triggered. And as a result, the gamer who does not have possession of the ball, would not need to think about cursor changes, because the computer would automatically do it for the gamer, and as a result, the gamer whom is not in possession of the ball would actually focus on playing football.

*
*
Something redundant
*
*

Tap the L1 button, you change from one player to another player, and directing the left analog stick literally determines the direction in which the player runs without the ball.

And since the gamer plays the game from a wide view perspective. The players on the pitch move like human beings with radars for brains. It destroys the essence of football, which is the fact that off the ball movement is determined by the position of the ball, instead of determined by the movements of one button.

Not substantial at all, because it's so blatantly obvious, that as a gamer you never actually think when it comes to playing without the ball. From the wide view perspective you can see where the play will culminate, you know that the play will culminate at Point B, and as a defender you move to Point B without thinking about anything, because directing the left analog stick literally determines the direction in which the player will run without the ball.

*
*
Something substantial
*
*

The gamer in possession of the ball would be in control of attacker-one (the ball carrier) and attacker-two (without the ball). On the other hand, the gamer who is not in possession of the ball would be in control of multiple defenders at the same time: in the middle of the pitch, the L1 button would be permanently attached to defender-one who would be the key defensive midfielder, and the R1 button would be permanently attached to a secondary defensive midfielder.

If attacker-one passes the ball to attacker-two, the gamer who is not in possession of the ball would need to read the game and make decisions before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball. In other words, there would be a window of time for you react as a defender, after that window shuts it would be impossible to determine movement without the ball.

For example. If attacker-one passes the ball to attacker-two. As a defender you would need to read what attacker-two will do with the ball. The window of opportunity to make decisions would be the time span between, when attacker-one passed the ball, and, when attacker-two had his first touch on the ball.

1st -- Tapping the short passing button before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball, would mean that defender-two would run after attacker-two after attacker-two passes the ball.

2nd -- Not tapping the short passing button before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball, would mean that defender-two would stay put, defending the space that he already occupies.

At times the 1st option would be the correct choice, other times the 1st option could be a horrible mistake. And most importantly, the left analog stick would not determine the direction in which the player runs without the ball.

The only player who would have the ability to move in accordance to one button, would be defender-one, the key defensive midfielder, and it would only work once per pass: by directing the right analog stick in one direction, the key defensive midfielder would move towards the given direction. The R1 button would determine the off the ball movement towards the given direction. And most importantly, it would only be possible to determine one direction of movement only once per pass, therefore making it impossible to exploit.

The bottom line is, you would get rid of the insubstantial act of tapping one button just so you can cursor change from one player to another player, and you replace that with a new system that requires you to tap different buttons in order to close down the team in possession of the ball.

This is the FUNDAMENTAL area where we have not seen any improvement at all. The tactical end of the game remains an arcade game, where directing the left analog stick and pressing the sprint button, is all you need to think about when playing without the ball.

Like I said at the beginning of this essay: my main frustration with the series is that you can still play it like an arcade game if you want to. Therefore, Konami is still trying to be appealing to as many people as possible, and that's a massive limitation on the evolution of the genre.

Because we see improvements in terms of GIMMICKS... GIMMICKS such as more passing directions, more fluid animations, better graphics, etc, etc. But the FUNDAMENTAL areas of the game: the off the ball movement that determines what the ball carrier can do with the ball, the defensive system, remains the same old flawed system. I have not seen any innovation in the FUNDAMENTAL areas of the game. That's my argument.

[RAMAXWY]

I find pes 2011 a way more challenging game than pes 4,5,6 as the graphics and gameplay are better. I got bored of pes 4 after a month or two and still find pes 2011 excitIng apart from the AI and i think the only reason people think pes 4,5,6 is better than pes 2011 is because fifa was crap at those times - eg if fifa was better than pes 6, everyone would say pes 6 is worse. I fifa were crap this year, everyone would say pes 2011 is better. However it hink outside the box and ignore fifa and pes 2011 for me is one fof the best games konami have made (including other genre games)
BTW, this is my opinion, not yours so don't insult me if you don't agree
no one should insult you just because of your opinion, i agree but saying PES 2011 is one of the best games konami has made is really looking for it.

the first look we got from pes 2012 is a video in which seabass himself sums up a few but mostly the important reasons why pes 2011 isn't what you'd expect from a football game especially with a slogan like "engineered for freedom".

Now, seabass is telling us we will be able to play the game in any which way we like with the improvements he made.

what the hell did the "engineered for freedom" stand for then?

so if pes 2011 is the best you've played you really should consider a trip down memory lane (pes5, pes6 and we9) cause they can still, till this day blow everything away which came afterwards.
do not just judge the game according to the graphics cause yes in that department pes 2011 edges it.
they still play a fantastic game of football though

i'm a pes fan in heart and soul cause the other alternative has been bull as far as i'm concerned, but pes 2011 by no stretch of the imagination is one of the best.

most of the things we've asked for and will be present in pes 2012 were already there in the three i just mentioned so no wonder pes 2011 was such a disappointment for a lot of us.

we just expected more a lot more.

Amateur has an agressive way of saying things and the long posts put some of you of but when he says PES HASN'T CHANGED FUNDAMENTALLY over the years(atleast not for the better) i agree with him and though we don't see eye to eye in how the change should take place we both want the game to move forward.
sometimes i wonder if the reason some moved to FIFA isn't the fact that they offered something new, something fresh other then something better.

[abu97]

I played pes 2011 right now and i don't agree on what i said. It's just too automatic, if there is no manuel shooting, it's harder to put away one on ones and computer is too stupid so now i agree, pes 5 gameplay is better but it wasnt manuel
pes 2011 is just too robotic and the computer AI is too crap and is more arcadey

[Dean Richmond]

First of all, my apologies for my exaggerated reaction a few posts back, I have a bad habit of overreacting, particularly when discussing PES.

As for PES. I agree with the point that PES11 offers more than the PS2 versions of PES. My main frustration with the series is that you can still play it like an arcade game if you want to, Konami is still trying to be appealing to as many people as possible, and that's a massive limitation on the evolution of the genre.

There has been improvement, but in my opinion the improvement is in unimportant areas, the fundamental areas remain as flawed as ever. To be honest, I would be completely satisfied with PES11 if I had not discovered the hidden tricks that PES10 offered.

Once I experienced the massive difference, of knowing that when I hold the L2 button + tap the short passing button: this player will move horizontally (without the ball) across the width of the pitch, towards the left flank of the pitch. And I also know that by doing the same thing again, the same player will move horizontally (without the ball) across the width of the pitch, towards the right flank of the pitch.

It gives you the freedom to create great passing angles, it gives you the freedom to determine where you begin your attack and where you finish your attack: PES10 offered that freedom, hidden underneath all the shitty animations, and the potential is impressive.

There is simply no way I will ever be genuinely entertained by just controlling the ball carrier and nothing else, because I already experienced just how fun it is to control the ball carrier and to control the script that determines the options of the ball carrier. PES10 is the concrete evidence on which I base most of my criticism.

If the idea of dictating the script of the game, works extremely well in a video game that was not designed to function around user-dictated scripts; that is, a video game where the computer does not know what the script will do, a video game where the computer does not control the amount of times that the script can be bended/manipulated by the user, etc.

If it works surprisingly well in a video game that was not designed to function around user-dictated scripts; imagine how well it would function in a video game that revolves around the idea of user-dictated scripts?

The result would be a video game where the computer would in fact know what the script will do. Therefore making it a video game where the computer, on the defensive end of the game, would automatically cursor change itself -- therefore getting rid of the necessity of pressing a button just to change from one player to another player, getting rid of the time that it takes to press one button in order to do something that does not add anything to the entertainment value of the game -- in order to give you actual control over the game, because that second that was previously used on something redundant, would now be used for something that would add a great deal of depth and structure to the game.

The player in possession of the ball, would trigger the script that he designed. And the computer would know what the script will do before the script is triggered. And as a result, the gamer who does not have possession of the ball, would not need to think about cursor changes, because the computer would automatically do it for the gamer, and as a result, the gamer whom is not in possession of the ball would actually focus on playing football.

*
*
Something redundant
*
*

Tap the L1 button, you change from one player to another player, and directing the left analog stick literally determines the direction in which the player runs without the ball.

And since the gamer plays the game from a wide view perspective. The players on the pitch move like human beings with radars for brains. It destroys the essence of football, which is the fact that off the ball movement is determined by the position of the ball, instead of determined by the movements of one button.

Not substantial at all, because it's so blatantly obvious, that as a gamer you never actually think when it comes to playing without the ball. From the wide view perspective you can see where the play will culminate, you know that the play will culminate at Point B, and as a defender you move to Point B without thinking about anything, because directing the left analog stick literally determines the direction in which the player will run without the ball.

*
*
Something substantial
*
*

The gamer in possession of the ball would be in control of attacker-one (the ball carrier) and attacker-two (without the ball). On the other hand, the gamer who is not in possession of the ball would be in control of multiple defenders at the same time: in the middle of the pitch, the L1 button would be permanently attached to defender-one who would be the key defensive midfielder, and the R1 button would be permanently attached to a secondary defensive midfielder.

If attacker-one passes the ball to attacker-two, the gamer who is not in possession of the ball would need to read the game and make decisions before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball. In other words, there would be a window of time for you react as a defender, after that window shuts it would be impossible to determine movement without the ball.

For example. If attacker-one passes the ball to attacker-two. As a defender you would need to read what attacker-two will do with the ball. The window of opportunity to make decisions would be the time span between, when attacker-one passed the ball, and, when attacker-two had his first touch on the ball.

1st -- Tapping the short passing button before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball, would mean that defender-two would run after attacker-two after attacker-two passes the ball.

2nd -- Not tapping the short passing button before attacker-two has his first touch on the ball, would mean that defender-two would stay put, defending the space that he already occupies.

At times the 1st option would be the correct choice, other times the 1st option could be a horrible mistake. And most importantly, the left analog stick would not determine the direction in which the player runs without the ball.

The only player who would have the ability to move in accordance to one button, would be defender-one, the key defensive midfielder, and it would only work once per pass: by directing the right analog stick in one direction, the key defensive midfielder would move towards the given direction. The R1 button would determine the off the ball movement towards the given direction. And most importantly, it would only be possible to determine one direction of movement only once per pass, therefore making it impossible to exploit.

The bottom line is, you would get rid of the insubstantial act of tapping one button just so you can cursor change from one player to another player, and you replace that with a new system that requires you to tap different buttons in order to close down the team in possession of the ball.

This is the FUNDAMENTAL area where we have not seen any improvement at all. The tactical end of the game remains an arcade game, where directing the left analog stick and pressing the sprint button, is all you need to think about when playing without the ball.

Like I said at the beginning of this essay: my main frustration with the series is that you can still play it like an arcade game if you want to. Therefore, Konami is still trying to be appealing to as many people as possible, and that's a massive limitation on the evolution of the genre.

Because we see improvements in terms of GIMMICKS... GIMMICKS such as more passing directions, more fluid animations, better graphics, etc, etc. But the FUNDAMENTAL areas of the game: the off the ball movement that determines what the ball carrier can do with the ball, the defensive system, remains the same old flawed system. I have not seen any innovation in the FUNDAMENTAL areas of the game. That's my argument.

You write far too much its clogging up the whole forum!

PES 2011 is by far and without shadow of a doubt the best Pro Evo game ever made, in fact the best football i have ever played. The gameplay, the graphics, the master league everything, is amazing. And for anyone who thinks PES 5 is better really hasnt played it enough. I hate it when people play ONE game and make a judgement, because on first play it isnt as good as say, a few months play!

I loved it at first, then hated it, tried getting into fifa (dare i say it), hated that too, fifa 11 is really bad! than played PES 11 again, and it was awesome. I just love the fatc that every game is different, every goal is different and its soo much fun to play. Yes it has a few flaws (what game doesnt?), but hopefully they will be fixed in 2012 to make 'The greatest football game ever made'

[Cristiano92]

PES 2012 Gameplay Video, a bit more than an hour to go :)
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=225797317460527

[shaun7]

^Nice. I hope they show real gameplay not only highlights. :)

[Cristiano92]

There will be a new Improvement, which makes the game as special as the 360Movement did.

[Dean Richmond]

cant wait for this video , hope it shows proper video and not animations like the E3 'Gameplay' video said

[OnlyProEvo]

Gameplay Videos;

Overlapping Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-overlapping.html)
Diagonal Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-diagonal-runs.html)
Dummy Runs (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-dummy-runs.html)
Zonal Defense (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-zonal-defense.html)
Zonal Marking (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-zonal-marking.html)
Off The Ball Controls (http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-off-ball.html)

[abu97]

Onlyproevo, is it possible to know when the next peice of pes 2012 info, screenshots, gameplays etc.will be coming out as you did before

[OnlyProEvo]

I am not so sure about more screenshots, gameplay videos or anything like that.

But the next batch of impressions are bound to come in from the PES Rankings play test this weekend. I will be there with 31 other individuals, so there's sure to be a lot more first impressions to be posted next week.

[OCKRASS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVMC5tUk6E&feature=player_embedded

New Video.....

The defending on the first goal says it all ....Just amazing!

:no:

[shaun7]

^I actually posted about that, BUT THAT MAY BE DUE TO THE FACT THAT THESE WERE ONLY SHOW OFFS. When I see real gameplay, I will judge.

[byrnie05]

Videos like these are probably on 1-star to almost guarantee the move you're demonstrating will be executed.

[abu97]

Nah, it'd probably be on normal difficulty as the defence looked tight and the playtest is just tomorrow so onlyproevo, get our questions please from the other post and keep 'em in ya head and try your best to answer them please

[Amateur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVMC5tUk6E&feature=player_embedded

New Video.....

The defending on the first goal says it all ....Just amazing!

:no:

I do not necessarily agree with your point. Just commenting on the video. But the problem is very simple.

Overlap: "the player is always anticipating your move"

Zonal Defense: "The communication between the defensive and the midfield lines is much better, your ability as a player does not affect the communication between the defensive and the midfield lines, meaning that you have no control over this aspect of the game."

Zonal Marking: "these individual decisions are being made all the time by the computer, therefore midfield play requires no ability at all, because the computer reads the game for you and makes the correct decisions for you."

*
*
Just simple QUESTIONS.
*
*

How the fuck can a video game anticipate what I want to do? Impossible.

What the fuck happens when I do not want the "Overlaping Run" yet the computer forces it upon me?

What happens when the user does not need to think about anything when playing in the midfield due to the fact that the "Active AI" makes all the correct decisions for you?

What determines the momentum of the game if a sudden drop in focus is irrelevant due to the fact that the "Active AI" makes the correct decisions regardless of your level of focus as a gamer?

For example. Mortal Kombat revolves around the level of focus of the gamer precisely because it requires constant TIMING from the gamer. A drop in focus from the gamer, would mean that the gamer would have the wrong TIMING and therefore the momentum would shift to the gamer with the better timing; whereas the player individuality is excellent because the characters have different timing and different abilities.

Why can't PES function like Mortal Kombat, in the sense that momentum shifts in Mortal Kombat are determined by the TIMING of the gamers rather than by random decisions by the computer?

Why can't PES revolve around TIMING in order to manually trigger ZONAL MARKING rather than the "Active AI" automatically triggering the ZONAL MARKING?

*
*
One ANSWER to all the questions.
*
*

The computer is merely forcing you into doing something, but Konami says that the computer anticipates what you want. BULLSHIT. Same old thing, that is, SCRIPTED gameplay, but with more responsive or "active" AI.

The decline of PES is due to the lack of diversion, lack of diversion due to the fact that you only control the ball carrier and you do not think about anything else, such a formula is outdated precisely because it cannot fundamentally improve past its current stage.

And unfortunately for the people who would like something new, Konami is not doing anything about the lack of diversion: PES12 plays itself without your intup. As I expected, the dumbing down of the genre continues at full speed.

[OCKRASS]

I do not necessarily agree with your point. Just commenting on the video. But the problem is very simple.


Just simple QUESTIONS.

How the fuck can a video game anticipate what I want to do? Impossible.

What the fuck happens when I do not want the "Overlaping Run" yet the computer forces it upon me?

.

We agree to disagree Amateur....

...but you make some sense here.

Where the fuck is he going so fast? That will be my question.

What if i lose the ball on the next pass....now i am as open as a whore on the first night of fleet week.

Maybe they should have made it a trigger button run instead.

Defense still looks horrible...and i still see the idiots talking about its just a video or maybe on beginners level ...when will they learn?

When?

[Pantilimon]

We agree to disagree Amateur....

...but you make some sense here.

Where the fuck is he going so fast? That will be my question.

What if i lose the ball on the next pass....now i am as open as a whore on the first night of fleet week.

Maybe they should have made it a trigger button run instead.

Defense still looks horrible...and i still see the idiots talking about its just a video or maybe on beginners level ...when will they learn?

When?

I agree here.There's no point in showing us how stupid the AI is.
Evereyone must accept the truth that these videos reflect the way PES is going to be.

[abu97]

overlap wont be a problem - noone complains about on fifa

[shaun7]

I agree here.There's no point in showing us how stupid the AI is.
Evereyone must accept the truth that these videos reflect the way PES is going to be.

Why are you here?
The fact is that you don't give feedback or constructive criticism. You're only here to bash and hate on pes.
You didn't comment on the fact that the AI overlaps much better, or the off ball control situations. No, instead you found something to bash pes on.

I will still wait for REAL GAMEPLAYS and especially the demo where I can test it myself as these were only show offs. Maybe the AI is much tougher in the full game, maybe it isn't.
Maybe the AI only went into position a few times and were actually recorded? Or maybe the AI truly is better.

You know, these questions cannot be answered with these so far.

[Pantilimon]

You're always saying this and you're always wrong.You said this 2 years ago when the first videos about PES 2010 were released, you said this 1 year ago about PES 2011.And the truth is that both of these games had big flaws not only in gameplay but also in AI.Then I wonder what's the use of giving feeback when nobody listen to it?
I admire your optimism, but you shouldn't ignore the truth.

[felinefury]

You could not be more wrong. The wii versions of PES use a completely dumb system which works via the right analog stick. I am not talking about something dumb, such as off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick.

I am talking about something realistic and substantial, such as off the ball movement in accordance to a preset script, off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, and off the ball movement in accordance to a midfield target -- cannot be exploited, because it is impossible to exploit due to numerous reasons.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick -- can be exploited and is extremely dumb, because you can see all the gaps, thanks to the wide view perspective, and then you direct the right analog stick, and the player moves as if he had a radar for a brain -- dumb and easy to exploit, it's basically cheating.

I am not talking about a dumb right analog stick gimmick. I am talking about a substantial football simulation, wrapped into a simple control scheme: left analog stick to control the ball carrier, the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the rest of the game, simple.

Completely dumb system using the right analog stick, huh? Either you played a totally different Wii version of PES or you should get your facts straight before complaining about a version that seems to fix a lot of the problems you bring up.

You complain about scripted gameplay in an earlier post but somehow "ball movement in accordance to a preset script" is a good thing now because it can't be exploited?

Perhaps you should decide whether you want a simulation or a videogame before you rant on about wanting manual control while complaining that the football videogame currently with the best manual control is too easily exploited?

Note: I'm not saying the Wii version is perfect (it has its share of minor quirks) but improving Wii-like gameplay is probably the best way towards making the best football videogame.

[Amateur]

We agree to disagree Amateur....

...but you make some sense here.

Where the fuck is he going so fast? That will be my question.

What if i lose the ball on the next pass....now i am as open as a whore on the first night of fleet week.

Maybe they should have made it a trigger button run instead.

Defense still looks horrible...and i still see the idiots talking about its just a video or maybe on beginners level ...when will they learn?

When?

Agreed. Actually, it's quite simple to fix some of the obvious problems with the completely automatic approach that Konami wants to continue using.

M-B6MbIEk_Q

The gamer should be in control of the Zonal Marking. Manual Zonal Marking. SIMPLE.

Attacker A passes the ball to Attacker B; on the defensive end, the user would have a limited time span to make a decision. The mentioned time span would range from (a) when Attacker A passes the ball, to (b) when Attacker B has his first touch on the ball.

If the user taps the through pass button before Player B has his first touch on the ball: as a result, the defensive midfielder will execute the zonal marking.

If the user does not tap the through pass button before Attacker B has his first touch on the ball: as a result, the defensive midfielder will not execute the zonal marking.

Such a simple mechanic gives the user control over this tactical aspect of the game, because it gives you the option of choosing the 1st option or the 2nd option. And as a result, the video game can revolve around mistakes made by the user, if the gamer used the 2nd option in the wrong scenario, that would trigger a mistake.

Meaning that the user would need to read the game, and try to use the 1st choice in the correct scenario, and the 2nd choice in the correct scenario.

*
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Example: Lio Messi with the ball. Two defenders on Lio Messi, Defender A and Defender B. But Xavi Hernandez is free from mark.
*
*

In the given scenario. If the computer automatically determines zonal marking. This would mean that one of the two defenders whom is marking Lio Messi, will go after Xavi Hernandez. The obvious problem with this, is really quite simple, you would now have ONLY ONE defender marking Lio Messi.....

We know what can happen if ONLY ONE defender is marking Lio Messi: Messi could dribble past Defender A and then he would be free from mark, because Defender B is now marking Xavi Hernandez. MASSIVE MISTAKE dictated by the computer.

That's a very common situation where the 2nd option (not executing the zonal marking) is the better option, due to the fact that Lio Messi can easily dribble past players, whereas Xavi Hernandez is not as dangerous when running at defenders.

This is why it is so important for the gamer to actually be in control over the zonal marking, because if the gamer can choose between two different type of defensive reactions, the video game can revolve around mistakes made by the gamer, as opposed to mistakes that are randomly dictated by the computer.

Not only would it add substance and structure to the game, but it would also be a diversion to keep us entertained when not in possession of the ball.

*
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Manual Zonal Marking
*
*

It would no longer be, simply a matter of pressing the sprint button and running around like a headless chicken; instead, the defender would need to make decisions before Attacker B has his first touch on the ball. Therefore, the footballing brain of the user would be key.

The only reason why Konami is still using the same old formula of automatic bullshit, is because if the user actually has control over Zonal Marking: as a result, a casual gamer who does not have a good understanding of Football would be easily defeated by a gamer with a decent footballing brain.

When Zonal Marking is completely automatic, the footballing brain of the gamer is redundant because the computer is making all the decisions for you, regardless of how focused or unfocused you are as a gamer.



Completely dumb system using the right analog stick, huh? Either you played a totally different Wii version of PES or you should get your facts straight before complaining about a version that seems to fix a lot of the problems you bring up.

You complain about scripted gameplay in an earlier post but somehow "ball movement in accordance to a preset script" is a good thing now because it can't be exploited?

Perhaps you should decide whether you want a simulation or a videogame before you rant on about wanting manual control while complaining that the football videogame currently with the best manual control is too easily exploited?

Note: I'm not saying the Wii version is perfect (it has its share of minor quirks) but improving Wii-like gameplay is probably the best way towards making the best football videogame.

Of course a preset script is a very good thing, because on the defensive end the computer can be competent due to the fact that the computer would now what the team in possession intends to do with the ball.

As a result. Manual cursor change is made redundant, because it would be possible to have specific buttons such as L1 and R1 amongst others, permanently attached to certain players, because the computer would know what the team in possession of the ball intends to do with the ball.

And because the computer would know what the team in possession of the ball intends to do with the ball, the computer can give you the freedom to make decisions; on the other hand, when the computer does not know what the team in possession of the ball intends to do with the ball, the computer MUST make the decisions for you. Which is the main problem with PES and FIFA.

*
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Buttons for when you are not in possession of the ball, and yet are not close enough to the ball carrier in order to actually man mark the ball carrier.
*
*

L1 button: would be permanently attached to the key defensive midfielder. By pressing the L1 button, the key defensive midfielder would move towards the position of the ball.

Right Analog Stick: would be permanently attached to the key defensive midfielder. By directing the right analog stick, the key defensive midfielder would run towards the given direction. Though unlike the Wii system, the right analog stick would only affect the direction of movement without the ball, only ONCE per pass, ONE direction for ONE pass, it would be impossible to move in MULTIPLE directions when the team in possession of the ball has only made ONE pass.

L2 button: would be permanently attached to the key defensive midfielder. By pressing the L2 button the key defensive midfielder would move towards the direction given with the right analog stick. The off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick would only work ONCE per pass. On the other hand, the duration of the movement would be determined by the L2 button: meaning that fully releasing the L2 button would mean that movement in accordance to the right analog stick would no longer work, until the ball carrier passes the ball ONCE again.

R1 button: would be permanently attached to a secondary defensive midfielder. By pressing the L1 button, the secondary defensive midfielder would move towards the position of the ball.

Short Passing button: would determine Manual Zonal Marking, and would be permanently attached to the secondary defensive midfielder. By pressing the short passing button before the opponent has his first touch on the ball after a pass is made: as a result, the secondary defensive midfielder will run after the opponent who just had his first touch on the ball, after the mentioned opponent passes the ball to another player.

Through Pass button: would be permanently attached to the key center back. By pressing the through pass button before the opponent has his first touch on the ball after a pass is made: as a result, the key center back will not move towards the position that the ball occupies, and would instead move towards the position that the opponent's forward target occupies. This can only be done ONCE per play, as opposed to ONCE per pass.

Through Pass button: movement in accordance to the position of the ball would be the correct decision in some occasions (depending on the preset script); on the other hand, movement in accordance to the position of opponent's forward target, would be the correct decision in other situations. Therefore, reading the preset script would be a crucial element of defensive play.

Shooting button: would be attached to the random players (not the key defensive midfielder, nor the secondary defensive midfielder, nor the key center back) whom are closest to the ball carrier. By pressing the shooting button, the forward or midfielder or center back whom is closest to the ball carrier would run after the ball carrier, in order to apply pressure.

Long Ball button: would determine Manual Zonal Marking, and would be attached to random players. By pressing the long ball button before the opponent has his first touch on the ball after a pass is made: as a result, a random player (not the key defensive midfielder, nor the secondary defensive midfielder, nor the key center back) will run after the opponent whom is running without the ball.

Long Ball button: unlike the Manual Zonal Marking that is attached to the short passing button, this Manual Zonal Marking would be designed in order to contain the attacking players whom are making Overlapping Runs through the flanks. Therefore it would be designed in order to contain the attacking players whom are out of the defensive midfielder's jurisdiction.

Left Analog Stick: it would only affect man marking, but would never affect off the ball movement. Meaning that it would never determine nor affect the direction in which the players run without the ball; instead, it would only determine the direction and distance of the standing tackle or sliding tackle. The left analog stick would automatically cursor change itself to whomever is man marking the ball carrier, but would serve no purpose when not close enough to man mark the ball carrier.

Bottom Line,

As a defender. The game would no longer be about directing the left analog stick and pressing the sprint button. The game would be about TIMING and about CRITICAL THINKING.

Your goal as a defender is to read the preset script correctly, until all the sequences of the preset script are used, because once the preset script expires, it will be easy to close down the opponent and get close enough to man mark the ball carrier.

However. If you make a mistake, such as not triggering Manual Zonal Marking when you should, that would create space for the team in possession of the ball. Mistakes would not be randomly dictated by the computer, and would instead be determined by the ability of the gamers.

*
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Preset Script
*
*

A preset script would add substance and structure into the game, it is way beyond the stupid Wii system, but apparently you cannot see why.

You get rid of the stupid Manual Cursor Change, and you replace it with something that actually requires CRITICAL THINKING.

The football video game currently with the best manual control is too easily exploited? Yes it is. It is insubstantial and stupid.

Is it better than PES11 on the PS3? Yes because it offers something new to the gamer. It offers two different types of diversion: the ball carrier, and the player without the ball, more diversion. PES on the PS3 is just about the ball carrier, and it gets boring very quickly, because it's the same old formula.

Is the Wii PES easy to exploit? Yes because the computer CANNOT be competent due to the fact that directing the right analog stick determines the direction in which a player will run without the ball. And since the computer does NOT know the direction that you will give at any given time, the computer CANNOT be competent, because the computer cannot read the future, which makes it impossible for the gamer to be in control of the game because the computer is not in control of the game.

In addition, since you play the game from a WIDE VIEW PERSPECTIVE, this means that the players on the pitch will move as if they had a radar for a brain, which is in fact CHEATING, and also completely ruins the concept of player individuality.

The Wii system is as stupid as this: playing from the wide view perspective, you notice a gaping hole somewhere on the pitch, you direct the right analog stick towards the gaping hole, and the player/target moves towards the gaping hole. Simple and stupid.

The computer cannot be competent, because the computer cannot read your mind: the computer does not know if you want to move towards the gaping hole or if you want to move into some other space on the pitch, and this creates a lack of balance due to the fact that the defender cannot react in time, due to the fact that the computer does not know what you intend to do when in possession of the ball.

PES on the Wii functions around a literal and stupid concept. It is better than PES on the PS3, but that doesn't change the fact that it is stupid and obvious. As a gamer, I am merely talking about how we can have a footy sim that is addictive and yet flawless, and I know that the preset script is the only way it can be done.

The preset script would give the game a feeling of uncertainty, an "anything can happen" feeling, due to the fact that the ball carrier would not know how the defender would react to the preset script, because defensive reactions would not be determined by a preset script. Therefore producing an "anything can happen yet I am in control of what I intend to do" feel to the game.

Perhaps you should decide whether you want a video game or a movie before you rant. Because PES is closer to being movie, than it is to being a video game.

NOTE -- preset script is an improvement on the Wii-like gameplay, simpler to execute yet impossible to exploit. It gives you control over the game, which is the main thing that differentiates video games from movies.

[shaun7]

You're always saying this and you're always wrong.You said this 2 years ago when the first videos about PES 2010 were released, you said this 1 year ago about PES 2011.And the truth is that both of these games had big flaws not only in gameplay but also in AI.Then I wonder what's the use of giving feeback when nobody listen to it?
I admire your optimism, but you shouldn't ignore the truth.

No, I am not always wrong. I just like to judge when it's the time.:)
Pes 10, I agree, it was stupid and bad, but pes 11 was not bad at al; overall. I never said that the AI was good BTW, but the overall balance of the game was quite good. Pes 11 isn't bad at all. It has stupid flaws that should have been avoided, but overall, it' still plays a good game.

What I meant was at least weigh the good and the bad and wait for at least the demo. :) It looks way better when you do that rather than just go full negative.

@Amateur. It's easy to say that you can control the zonal defending and marking but how can you with 1 controller? But then again, a more manual game is needed for sure, BUT to a point where player individuality isn't lost because if you control everything by yourself, the individuality will be lost. However, combining what you want, with the player's skill will make the game better. However you still can't control all 11 players.

[goalgerd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmx1VTrXpek


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZwwxEsw7E



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hjki0Q20Mw


theres more there

[Amateur]

No, I am not always wrong. I just like to judge when it's the time.:)
Pes 10, I agree, it was stupid and bad, but pes 11 was not bad at al; overall. I never said that the AI was good BTW, but the overall balance of the game was quite good. Pes 11 isn't bad at all. It has stupid flaws that should have been avoided, but overall, it' still plays a good game.

What I meant was at least weigh the good and the bad and wait for at least the demo. :) It looks way better when you do that rather than just go full negative.

@Amateur. It's easy to say that you can control the zonal defending and marking but how can you with 1 controller? But then again, a more manual game is needed for sure, BUT to a point where player individuality isn't lost because if you control everything by yourself, the individuality will be lost. However, combining what you want, with the player's skill will make the game better. However you still can't control all 11 players.

Dude, I respect your views, because I completely agree with you nine times out of ten. However, in this case, I think you are being closed minded about the idea that I'm putting across, you seem to be adamant about the classic PES ping pong game; on the other hand, I'm not thinking about an unstructured and insubstantial ping pong game where you easily have three different options where you can pass the ball into.

It's easy to say that the gamer can manually control the zonal defending and marking but how can you do such a thing with just ONE controller?

Answering such a question in detail, would require a lot of words. But the bottom line is simple: it's not about QUANTITY, it's about STRUCTURE, STRUCTURE is everything, QUANTITY is redundant.

It does not matter if you have 100 choices to make, because you can only make ONE decision per pass. The ball carrier only has ONE decision per pass, and the defender only has ONE decision per pass. The choices would be very limited, and therefore would not be anything complicated.

On the defensive end, some decisions, the very important decisions: would only work ONCE per play. Therefore if you use it at the wrong time, you wasted your card, and you are left exposed.

For example. If the opponent's center forward will run into space precisely seven seconds after the first sequence of the script is triggered. As a defender, you would need to tap the through pass button before the opponent has his first touch on the ball after a pass was made: in order to effectively contain the opponent's center forward.

Example: what happens if it's been five seconds since the first sequence of the script was triggered by the team in possession of the ball, and the opponent's center forward will run into space seven seconds after the first sequence of the script was triggered.

This means that in two seconds, the opponent's center forward will run into space. If the opponent already had his first touch on the ball after a pass was made, and as a defender, you did not tapped the through pass button before the opponent had his first touch on the ball.... In such a case, it's checkmate, because as a defender you did not anticipated the play.

The opponent's center forward will run into space, and the center back whom is supposed to be marking him will not be in the right place at the right time: the center back will not even have the chance of getting close enough to the opponent's center forward, in order to actually man mark the opponent's center forward.

On the other hand. What happens if it's been five seconds since the first sequence of the script was triggered by the team in possession of the ball, and the opponent's center forward will run into space seven seconds after the first sequence of the script was triggered.

This means that in two seconds, the opponent's center forward will run into space. If the opponent already had his first touch on the ball after a pass was made, and as a defender, you tapped the through pass button before the opponent had his first touch on the ball.... In such a case, you have effectively contained the opponent's center forward, and you will at least have the chance of man marking the opponent's center forward, which would give you control over the situation because the center forward would need to dribble past you in order to score the goal.

Of course you could say that by tapping the through pass button every time the opponent passes the ball, you would effectively contain the opponent's center forward: but the problem is, that as a defender you can only use the through pass button feature only ONCE per play, as opposed to ONCE per pass.

Therefore if you use the through ball button at the wrong time, you will GIFT the opponent with a one on one opportunity against the GK. On the other hand, if you use the through pass button at the right time, you will have the option of man marking the opponent's center forward in time to prevent the goal, which is much better than a blatant one on one against the GK.

And of course, when in possession of the ball, the game would not be as easy as passing the ball to the center forward, because you would need to create space out of nothing; as opposed to the computer creating space for you.

And of course, if you use the through ball button at the wrong time, you will not always GIFT the opponent with a one on one opportunity against the GK, because it depends on the situation. The main point is, that the opponent's center forward would gain a critical advantage, which in some cases, can mean a one on one opportunity against the GK.

Bottom line. It's not about QUANTITY. It's not about making THREE different decisions in ONE second. Its about making ONE decision per pass. And since it has nothing to do with QUANTITY, one controller is more than enough.

As the ball carrier, you know that the center forward will move only ONCE per play in accordance to the preset script that you created. And as the defender, you know that the through pass button will only work ONCE per play.

As the ball carrier, you know that the preset script will eventually run out of sequences. And as the defender, you know that if you make the correct decisions with the defensive midfielders, that the opponent will eventually run out of options.

It's about playing the game pass by pass, sequence by sequence, until one team makes a mistake. It's about STRUCTURE, it's about CRITICAL THINKING, it's about reading the game one step at a time.

[OnlyProEvo]

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/ope-pes-2012-playtest-impressions.html

Here are my PES 2012 impressions, in case you haven't already read them.

[Ali_BWFC]

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/ope-pes-2012-playtest-impressions.html

Here are my PES 2012 impressions, in case you haven't already read them.

Thanks. Were you able to give much feedback to the PES team?

One thing that worries me, what you said in the last couple of paragraphs. About when you picked the South American team and they were poor. This SHOULDN'T be the case. They're supposed to be proffessional football players and should be able to control the ball and pass it around with ease. I'm also worried about the fact that you said that world class players seem even better. That's all we need! The gulf in quality between the likes of Messi/Ronaldo et al, and the rest, to get even bigger! :facepalm:

[shaun7]

^Why not? In reality players like messi are superior to others. n pes 11, this got slightly reduced by the stupid catch up bug and sloooww response. In my opinion, if these 2 are fixed, THEY WILL obviously appear better. :)

[Ali_BWFC]

^Why not? In reality players like messi are superior to others. n pes 11, this got slightly reduced by the stupid catch up bug and sloooww response. In my opinion, if these 2 are fixed, THEY WILL obviously appear better. :)

From his comments, it seems like Messi/Ronaldo etc are gonna be amazing, and everyone else will be shit. The way he talks about the Copa America players shows this. In reality, these players are top class players. They're not up with Messi etc, but they're top players because they play for top sides. OnlyProEvo's comments make it sound like Konami has them playing like amateurs!

Even the lesser quality players can catch up to Messi and Ronaldo. I bet I can find you plenty of players in League 1, or Serie B that can outpace some of the top players.
This is where Konami often fails. The lesser quality players have shit attributes all round. In real life, they could be quicker than Usain Bolt, but Konami would still give them shit speed attributes, because they're not one of the top players.

[OnlyProEvo]

Thanks. Were you able to give much feedback to the PES team?

One thing that worries me, what you said in the last couple of paragraphs. About when you picked the South American team and they were poor. This SHOULDN'T be the case. They're supposed to be proffessional football players and should be able to control the ball and pass it around with ease. I'm also worried about the fact that you said that world class players seem even better. That's all we need! The gulf in quality between the likes of Messi/Ronaldo et al, and the rest, to get even bigger! :facepalm:

They asked for my opinions, and I told them what I thought.

And I wouldn't go as far as saying that the Copa Liba teams were poor - they were just not as good as the class players at Inter, Barca, etc. and rightly so!

Oh, and if players are going to "whore" with Messi, Ronaldo etc, this year, it will only be because that they are good players of the game. It won't be easy to take it around defences, from what I saw.

[zizou4ever]

I agree with Ali_BWFC. South American teams have a lot of quality players. Unfortunately Konami only considers good players the ones who play in Europe.
Just an example: Pato comes from Internacional (Brazilian team). His stats when he was in Internacional were very poor. The next PES when he was in Milan, his stats were amazing. Why was that??? Does it mean that the player suddenly becomes amazing just by the fact he's playing in a "big team"?

Of course, I am not saying that all South American teams have great players, but I think Konami should do a better research on that.

[OnlyProEvo]

For me, and probably Konami as well, a player doesn't "make it" until they've achieved success on the big stage.

With all due respect, the South American leagues just aren't as big as the European leagues. That's why 90% of the great players come to Spain or England mostly, to play their football.

[OnlyProEvo]

Sorry for double post. The site went down for like 20 seconds...

[OnlyProEvo]

New PES 2012 announcement is coming this week. No promises, but expect the news to hit on Wednesday.

[Amateur]

From his comments, it seems like Messi/Ronaldo etc are gonna be amazing, and everyone else will be shit. The way he talks about the Copa America players shows this. In reality, these players are top class players. They're not up with Messi etc, but they're top players because they play for top sides. OnlyProEvo's comments make it sound like Konami has them playing like amateurs!

Even the lesser quality players can catch up to Messi and Ronaldo. I bet I can find you plenty of players in League 1, or Serie B that can outpace some of the top players.
This is where Konami often fails. The lesser quality players have shit attributes all round. In real life, they could be quicker than Usain Bolt, but Konami would still give them shit speed attributes, because they're not one of the top players.

Agreed. For example, Luis Suarez (Uruguay, Liverpool) is undoubtedly a world class players. He was world class at the world cup, and is showing great skills so far in the Copa America Tournament.

I think that due to the nonexistence of movement within the space, Konami is forced into boosting the physical attributes of certain players. I mean, it's not like Lio Messi can move within the space better than the average player, Lio Messi only has more directions in which to twist and turn, and that's not movement within the space and that's not enough to make him stand out in PES.

So you boost the physical attributes of star players, and then average players have shit physical attributes. And that makes players like Messi and Ronaldo stand out that bit more.

[FutebolArte]

For me, and probably Konami as well, a player doesn't "make it" until they've achieved success on the big stage.

With all due respect, the South American leagues just aren't as big as the European leagues. That's why 90% of the great players come to Spain or England mostly, to play their football.

thats bullshit... they come only for the money....

if they could make the same amount of money, why would they want to leave their homes???

the fact that you people (euros) think that is utterly conceited and a lil racist
honestly... why would gomes want to play for fuckin everton? to prove himself??? thats bullshit... or hernanes went to lazio just to play against "better" opponents??? so you think roma is better than Penarol??? or santos??? Neymar, Ganso, Elano....

fact is, people go for the money... especially players from arg and brazi...

hahaha thats rich, Lugano left SPFC to go play in turkey.... for the craziness that is turkish football... you know all those great club side...

where do you get that fact that 90% of players go to spain and england??? do you just make stuff up??? FFS

and ps for mods, feel free to sticky this....

I've had enough of ur shit

[OnlyProEvo]

Jon Champion and Jim Beglin confirmed for PES 2012 - http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/champion-beglin-remain-for-pes-2012.html

Three more screens and La Liga details - http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/three-new-pes-2012-screens-la-liga.html

Index updated.

[Ali_BWFC]

Jon Champion and Jim Beglin confirmed for PES 2012 - http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/champion-beglin-remain-for-pes-2012.html

Three more screens and La Liga details - http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/three-new-pes-2012-screens-la-liga.html

Index updated.

I hope this isn't the major news that was teased the other week. The prospect of having La Liga fully licensed again is nice, but it doesn't make too much of a difference since the teams are already there in their unlicensed form. I'm still hoping for Bundesliga.

[OnlyProEvo]

No, no, no, no, no! This isn't the major news, that will be revealed at Gamescom.

[Ali_BWFC]

Agreed. For example, Luis Suarez (Uruguay, Liverpool) is undoubtedly a world class players. He was world class at the world cup, and is showing great skills so far in the Copa America Tournament.

I think that due to the nonexistence of movement within the space, Konami is forced into boosting the physical attributes of certain players. I mean, it's not like Lio Messi can move within the space better than the average player, Lio Messi only has more directions in which to twist and turn, and that's not movement within the space and that's not enough to make him stand out in PES.

So you boost the physical attributes of star players, and then average players have shit physical attributes. And that makes players like Messi and Ronaldo stand out that bit more.

It all makes me a bit worried at how bad the default ML players are gonna be! :shocking:

No, no, no, no, no! This isn't the major news, that will be revealed at Gamescom.

Ok.... ok.... calm down tiger! :D

[abu97]

No, no, no, no, no! This isn't the major news, that will be revealed at Gamescom.

Please onlyproevo, is it possible to find out when the major new will come out at gamescom and released on the internet - i'm so desperate to find out. Anyway i love how you recorded lampard's and wilshere's stats, can't believe though they rated wilshere, an 19 yr old (konami have a reputation of rating young players badly), than lampard, one of the best cmf - well at his prime he was.
Anyway can you remember anymore overall ratings - they don't need to be overall stats - individual stats if you want

[OnlyProEvo]

I am calm, Ali_BWFC. :]

I can't remember any stats off the top of my head. If you look in the right places, you'll find the stats - although these are likely to change, by the game's official release.

As for the news, I can't reveal anything until Konami give the go ahead. Obviously, I want to maintain a good relationship between them and my blog. :]

[abu97]

Nah, couldn't find any sites showings stats but it don't matter as i was just interested

[felinefury]

[~large chunk of text about defensive controls omitted for space~]
*
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Preset Script
*
*

A preset script would add substance and structure into the game, it is way beyond the stupid Wii system, but apparently you cannot see why.

You get rid of the stupid Manual Cursor Change, and you replace it with something that actually requires CRITICAL THINKING.

The football video game currently with the best manual control is too easily exploited? Yes it is. It is insubstantial and stupid.

Is it better than PES11 on the PS3? Yes because it offers something new to the gamer. It offers two different types of diversion: the ball carrier, and the player without the ball, more diversion. PES on the PS3 is just about the ball carrier, and it gets boring very quickly, because it's the same old formula.

Is the Wii PES easy to exploit? Yes because the computer CANNOT be competent due to the fact that directing the right analog stick determines the direction in which a player will run without the ball. And since the computer does NOT know the direction that you will give at any given time, the computer CANNOT be competent, because the computer cannot read the future, which makes it impossible for the gamer to be in control of the game because the computer is not in control of the game.

In addition, since you play the game from a WIDE VIEW PERSPECTIVE, this means that the players on the pitch will move as if they had a radar for a brain, which is in fact CHEATING, and also completely ruins the concept of player individuality.

The Wii system is as stupid as this: playing from the wide view perspective, you notice a gaping hole somewhere on the pitch, you direct the right analog stick towards the gaping hole, and the player/target moves towards the gaping hole. Simple and stupid.

The computer cannot be competent, because the computer cannot read your mind: the computer does not know if you want to move towards the gaping hole or if you want to move into some other space on the pitch, and this creates a lack of balance due to the fact that the defender cannot react in time, due to the fact that the computer does not know what you intend to do when in possession of the ball.

PES on the Wii functions around a literal and stupid concept. It is better than PES on the PS3, but that doesn't change the fact that it is stupid and obvious. As a gamer, I am merely talking about how we can have a footy sim that is addictive and yet flawless, and I know that the preset script is the only way it can be done.

The preset script would give the game a feeling of uncertainty, an "anything can happen" feeling, due to the fact that the ball carrier would not know how the defender would react to the preset script, because defensive reactions would not be determined by a preset script. Therefore producing an "anything can happen yet I am in control of what I intend to do" feel to the game.

Perhaps you should decide whether you want a video game or a movie before you rant. Because PES is closer to being movie, than it is to being a video game.

NOTE -- preset script is an improvement on the Wii-like gameplay, simpler to execute yet impossible to exploit. It gives you control over the game, which is the main thing that differentiates video games from movies.

10/10 A++ response, would read again :D

Defensively, the Playmaker controls can do everything you mentioned with less memorization of complex button controls. You can mark players/zones precisely, without relying on buttons controlling random players.

Offensively, I agree the Playmaker controls can be too much for opposition AI at times. I don't agree that Konami should go with a control scheme that handcuffs the player's options (relatively speaking with respect to the Wii controls) just because the AI currently isn't good enough to play competent defense against a human player. Developers' efforts (and system processing power) should be focused towards improving that part of AI, even at the expense of teammate AI (since Playmaker controls make teammate AI mostly inconsequential). The other reason why inferior AI defense shouldn't result in a more script driven control scheme (again relative to Wii controls) is because a human vs human match with Playmaker controls is incredibly challenging and satisfying when it becomes a match of wits, reflexes, and field management.

Not sure what you're referring to when you say PES is more movie-like than videogame-like. I'm guessing that remark was for somebody who plays PES on a non-Wii system since the Wii version gives the most control to the player of any other football game out there.

P.S. It's not a right analog stick; it's an infrared pointer. :) Its function really reduces the number of necessary buttons so I'm not seeing how traditional controls are "simpler to execute."

[sydney2008]

I hope that KONAMI give us the DEMO as soon as possible , I can`t wait any longer .

[Ali_BWFC]

It'll probably come out a month or so before release date. So probably about September-ish.

[sydney2008]

It'll probably come out a month or so before release date. So probably about September-ish.

Thank you , i heard some rumors about PES 2012 demo release date will be before FIFA 12 hits the markets , so it might be in august , but if it`s in september as you said , ohh we still haven`t finished july yet , :) .

[Ali_BWFC]

Thank you , i heard some rumors about PES 2012 demo release date will be before FIFA 12 hits the markets , so it might be in august , but if it`s in september as you said , ohh we still haven`t finished july yet , :) .

Last year, I think the demos of PES and Fifa were released the same week.

[OnlyProEvo]

I hope that KONAMI give us the DEMO as soon as possible , I can`t wait any longer .

This COULD be a reality, as Jon Murphy himself said he hopes to get a demo out ASAP - after the shooting is fixed.. which it has been!

[sydney2008]

It`s a great news OnlyProEvo , Thank you .

[Ali_BWFC]

This COULD be a reality, as Jon Murphy himself said he hopes to get a demo out ASAP - after the shooting is fixed.. which it has been!

They shouldn't rush the demo. This year is a BIG year for PES. They don't want to put people off with a demo of a half finished game, do they?

[OnlyProEvo]

Unless they make an exclusive beta for a limited number of players to participate in...

[sydney2008]

In my opinion , Konami can realease a demo before end of august to have a balance time between the demo and the realease of the full game in october , hope so .

[OnlyProEvo]

PES 2012 will be released in the UK, on October 14th.
http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-uk-release-date-october-14th.html


New Gameplay Video: One on Ones
http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2011/07/pes-2012-gameplay-video-one-on-ones.html

[Amateur]

10/10 A++ response, would read again :D

Defensively, the Playmaker controls can do everything you mentioned with less memorization of complex button controls. You can mark players/zones precisely, without relying on buttons controlling random players.


Yes but you have to give more thought to how such a system would affect -- or better said -- would change the passing system.

It would not be anything complicated, as far as I'm concerned. I think it would be simpler in the truest sense of the word, but more comprehensive and systematic, as well as flawless.

On the attacking end, you pass the ball with the short passing button; on the defensive end you make defensive decisions that can only be made when the opponent passes the ball, such defensive decisions would be determined by pressing or not pressing the short passing button.

As a gamer. You would know that the short passing button would be attached to the secondary defensive midfielder. Therefore it should not be complicated at all.

On the attacking end, the gamer can only dictate an overlapping run ONCE at a time; on the defensive end the through pass button would be used so that the random player whom is supposed to be marking the attacker making the overlapping run, runs after the attacker making the overlapping run, and effectively contains the attacker whom is making the overlapping run.

On the attacking end, the gamer cannot dictate a 2nd overlapping run if the attacker who made the 1st overlapping run never touched the ball; on the defensive end, it would be easier to close down the ball carrier.

How would the ball carrier dictate the overlapping run? With a new passing system.

It would be completely different, it would be more complicated than the PES system but it would not actually be complicated, it would simply not be as simplistic and as random as the PES system is.


Offensively, I agree the Playmaker controls can be too much for opposition AI at times. I don't agree that Konami should go with a control scheme that handcuffs the player's options (relatively speaking with respect to the Wii controls) just because the AI currently isn't good enough to play competent defense against a human player. Developers' efforts (and system processing power) should be focused towards improving that part of AI, even at the expense of teammate AI (since Playmaker controls make teammate AI mostly inconsequential). The other reason why inferior AI defense shouldn't result in a more script driven control scheme (again relative to Wii controls) is because a human vs human match with Playmaker controls is incredibly challenging and satisfying when it becomes a match of wits, reflexes, and field management.

Not sure what you're referring to when you say PES is more movie-like than videogame-like. I'm guessing that remark was for somebody who plays PES on a non-Wii system since the Wii version gives the most control to the player of any other football game out there.

P.S. It's not a right analog stick; it's an infrared pointer. :) Its function really reduces the number of necessary buttons so I'm not seeing how traditional controls are "simpler to execute."

A preset script would never "handcuff" the options of the gamer; quite the contrary, it is the PES and FIFA system that handcuff's the options of the gamer.

Who determines WHEN a gap will open up?

Who determined WHERE a gap will open up?

Who determines if the center forward decides to run a little too late or a little too early?

No. It is not the right analog stick system. The right analog stick system merely functions so that the gamer directs the right analog stick towards the gap, yet the gap itself is randomly dictated and determined by the computer. Therefore, the right analog stick system is predetermined by the computer; in other words, the right analog stick system is in fact "handcuffed" by the computer.

On the other hand. A Preset Script System is not handcuffed by the computer, because the gamer decides WHEN it works, the gamer decides WHERE it works, the gamer decides the SPEED of the actual movement, the gamer is actually in control over the game.

You are talking about the Wii-system. The Wii-system is very flawed and gives you control over just ONE player, via gimmicky execution. On the other hand, the Preset Script System that I have vaguely described and explained, would give you control over MULTIPLE players, via simple execution.

The Preset Script System would give you limited options in terms of how many tools you have per play; however, the Preset Script System would give you unlimited options in terms of the range of things that you can actually do.

The Right Analog Stick System is completely random and limited in every aspect, because you are not in control of the game, you just have control over a very trivial and redundant part of the game.

I'm not saying that the Wii-system is utter shit. I'm just saying that it can be better and simpler to use.


PS -- pressing and releasing the L2 button..... Is simpler than an infrared pointer.... Due to very obvious reasons. Not trying to be offensive, just saying.

[S-D-P]

FYI

Some detailed impressions from EVO WEB, these guys dont just create hype for the sake of hype either.

enjoy

http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64376

[S-D-P]

Sorry for double post but here's a new video.

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/pes-2012-hold-up-play-video/comment-page-1/#comment-5707

[felinefury]

Yes but you have to give more thought to how such a system would affect -- or better said -- would change the passing system.

It would not be anything complicated, as far as I'm concerned. I think it would be simpler in the truest sense of the word, but more comprehensive and systematic, as well as flawless.

On the attacking end, you pass the ball with the short passing button; on the defensive end you make defensive decisions that can only be made when the opponent passes the ball, such defensive decisions would be determined by pressing or not pressing the short passing button.

As a gamer. You would know that the short passing button would be attached to the secondary defensive midfielder. Therefore it should not be complicated at all.
Relative to "traditional" football videogames, any control scheme that allows the gamer to control more than one player at a time is going to be more complicated than what the average (aka casual) fan is accustomed to. The multitasking involved is enough of a learning curve for these types of players. Obviously, an avid gamer (such as yourself) isn't going to be as easily fazed by such a change. But PES isn't going to win back the mainstream football gamer (I'm assuming Konami cares about competing against EA's FIFA) without catering to a lower denominator though.

All I'm saying is the pointer system is more intuitive than assigning all these actions to buttons. In other words, you can switch around the buttons and assign L2 to the secondary DMF instead of the primary DMF and it wouldn't make much difference (aside from preference) as button assignments are mostly arbitrary. On the other hand, you're not going to point at defender A to manipulate the actions of defender B because that makes no sense. The act of pointing at defender A to control defender A makes intuitive sense. To a seasoned gamer, this subtle difference will be forgotten/overlooked quickly but to a more casual gamer, especially one who would be new to controlling multiple players at once? Could be the difference between loving the game and being frustrated with the game.

Your stipulation of limiting overlapping runs seems to be based on your preference for realism over "arcadey" gameplay so I'll chalk that up as differing tastes and not really worth arguing over. Different strokes for different folks.

A preset script would never "handcuff" the options of the gamer; quite the contrary, it is the PES and FIFA system that handcuff's the options of the gamer.

Who determines WHEN a gap will open up?

Who determined WHERE a gap will open up?

Who determines if the center forward decides to run a little too late or a little too early?

No. It is not the right analog stick system. The right analog stick system merely functions so that the gamer directs the right analog stick towards the gap, yet the gap itself is randomly dictated and determined by the computer. Therefore, the right analog stick system is predetermined by the computer; in other words, the right analog stick system is in fact "handcuffed" by the computer.

On the other hand. A Preset Script System is not handcuffed by the computer, because the gamer decides WHEN it works, the gamer decides WHERE it works, the gamer decides the SPEED of the actual movement, the gamer is actually in control over the game.

You are talking about the Wii-system. The Wii-system is very flawed and gives you control over just ONE player, via gimmicky execution. On the other hand, the Preset Script System that I have vaguely described and explained, would give you control over MULTIPLE players, via simple execution.

The Preset Script System would give you limited options in terms of how many tools you have per play; however, the Preset Script System would give you unlimited options in terms of the range of things that you can actually do.

The Right Analog Stick System is completely random and limited in every aspect, because you are not in control of the game, you just have control over a very trivial and redundant part of the game.

I'm not saying that the Wii-system is utter shit. I'm just saying that it can be better and simpler to use.

PS -- pressing and releasing the L2 button..... Is simpler than an infrared pointer.... Due to very obvious reasons. Not trying to be offensive, just saying.
Okay, you lost me lol. Of course, a single player game is going to be determined partially by how the computer controls the opposing team. Every single player videogame ever made is based upon how the player reacts to what the computer does (all which are bound by a set of rules specific to the game).

When the Wii gamer is on offense, he/she can wait for the opposition AI to "make a mistake" with player positioning, thereby exposing gaps for him/her to exploit. Generally not recommended for obvious reasons. Space can be created by the gamer when the opposition AI is man-marking the forwards - simply drag the forward to a certain area of the pitch and the defender follows (voila, space is created and another attacking player can move into the space created to receive a pass!). The opposition AI not playing enough zone defense to counter this type of tactic is a downside that should be remedied since offense does become easier once the gamer is used to multitasking different areas of the pitch. Against human players, this is not a problem since the other guy can recognize the tactic and deal with it accordingly.

I don't even know where to begin with the "gives you control over just ONE player" comment. <insert obligatory "Are you trolling?" comment here> At any given instant, you can control at least two players simultaneously (one with the analog stick, one with the pointer). Expand the timeframe past a single instant and you can conceivably control every teammate on the screen if you do drag/point commands one after another. Feel free to elaborate on why you think such a control scheme is random or even limited.

Can the Wii controls be better? Yes, definitely. Can they be simpler without losing function? I don't believe so.

Comparing a button press that represents 1/8th of your proposed control scheme to something that is half of another scheme is a bit disingenuous, no? Yeah, a single button press is simpler than infrared pointing. But you're not going to be very effective at controlling a team with just one button or even two buttons.

[leelika08]

I accept with infor: 18 June: E3 Interview With Jon Murphy.

23 June: D-Pad Controls Remain... For Now

28 June: Goalkeepers Have Been Fixed For PES 2012 + "Football Life" New Game Mode is Announced

28 June: WENB PES 2012 Playtest Impressions
__________________
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[roblucci]

I think some people forget that in the leaked game play video we have seen so far there is a situation where players not rushing or shy away to chase the loose ball.

[Amateur]

Relative to "traditional" football videogames, any control scheme that allows the gamer to control more than one player at a time is going to be more complicated than what the average (aka casual) fan is accustomed to. The multitasking involved is enough of a learning curve for these types of players. Obviously, an avid gamer (such as yourself) isn't going to be as easily fazed by such a change. But PES isn't going to win back the mainstream football gamer (I'm assuming Konami cares about competing against EA's FIFA) without catering to a lower denominator though.

I do not think that Konami is going to make the serious footy sim, Konami is merely EA's bitch, EA shares the mainstream market with Konami.

Though having said that, I believe that a third party could produce the serious footy sim, which is where my interest lies, as I could not care less about appealing to the masses whom are dumb enough to be baffled by the baffling task of actually thinking when they play video games.

All I'm saying is the pointer system is more intuitive than assigning all these actions to buttons. In other words, you can switch around the buttons and assign L2 to the secondary DMF instead of the primary DMF and it wouldn't make much difference (aside from preference) as button assignments are mostly arbitrary. On the other hand, you're not going to point at defender A to manipulate the actions of defender B because that makes no sense. The act of pointing at defender A to control defender A makes intuitive sense. To a seasoned gamer, this subtle difference will be forgotten/overlooked quickly but to a more casual gamer, especially one who would be new to controlling multiple players at once? Could be the difference between loving the game and being frustrated with the game.

I disagree. In my opinion the pointer system is more obvious and more literal, but that doesn't make it more intuitive at all. I have tried the two systems, the pointer system and the preset system, and I find that the preset system is much more intuitive because the control scheme is more intuitive and responsive.

The pointer system is flawed, it forces the user into thinking about direction, and therefore forces the computer into having to pull off balancing stunts. The system that I propose is much more substantial, as well as much simpler to use.

I'm taking into consideration, the fact that I expect movement within the space to be a possibility in the next few years. Therefore, I do not want the gamer to be baffled by the amount of directions, direction of passing, direction of dribbling, etc, etc.

To date, movement within the space is impossible, which means that you only think about the direction in which you move through space, but never about the direction in which you move inside the space that you occupy.

When movement within the space is possible, the pointer system will just overload the game with directions. On the other hand, the preset script system can handle more directions, can be much more specific, and at the same time would not interfere with the direction in which you move inside the space, the direction in which you move through space, the direction of passing, etc, etc.

The pointer system is stupid, as simple as that. There's no substance to it, it's just a gimmick to further divert your mind, but it does not actually add substance to the game.

Your stipulation of limiting overlapping runs seems to be based on your preference for realism over "arcadey" gameplay so I'll chalk that up as differing tastes and not really worth arguing over. Different strokes for different folks.

Agreed. I just want a video game where, if I fail as a gamer, I can find a reason that explains why I failed in that particular situation. I do not expect Konami nor EA Sports to produce a serious footy sim, but I'm hoping that a third party is aware of the fact that there is market for a serious footy sim.

Okay, you lost me lol. Of course, a single player game is going to be determined partially by how the computer controls the opposing team. Every single player videogame ever made is based upon how the player reacts to what the computer does (all which are bound by a set of rules specific to the game).

Not necessarily. I mean, we do have CHESS VIDEO GAMES, and the computer does not determines the choices that you have; I mean, yes, you do react to whatever the computer does, but the computer does not forces you into choosing one out of three randomly dictated choices.

The problem with PES is that it is a video game where THREE different choices will materialize simultaneously so that you can choose one of them. Of course, the problem is, that you are not in control of the game, you cannot control when the AI makes a mistake; only the AI can control when the AI makes a mistake.

When you play a CHESS VIDEO GAME, you have countless of choices from which to choose from, but only ONE CHOICE will actually materialize. This means that on the defensive end, your opponent can react accordingly.

On the other hand, what would happen if you are playing a CHESS VIDEO GAME where, out of 50 possible choices, the computer picks 3 choices out of a total of 50 choices, so that you can chose 1 out of the mentioned 3 choices that the computer picked for you without your consent?

This would mean that instead of choosing ONE out of 50 choices per play, your freedom and control over the video game is reduced into just ONE out of 3 choices per play; whereas the computer, has the power and the freedom to chose ONE out of 50 choices per play.

How do you win a CHESS MATCH if your opponent literally determines what you can and cannot do?

With PES, if you want a cheeseburger, the computer might just provide you with a chicken sandwich, a hamburger, and a pizza, three different choices materialize at the same time, yet that does not mean that you get what you wanted. On the other hand, with CHESS, if you want a cheeseburger, you get a cheeseburger.

Therefore, OBVIOUSLY, all video games revolve around what the computer does, but not all video games give you complete freedom, and PES is one of those games that does not give you complete freedom.

When the Wii gamer is on offense, he/she can wait for the opposition AI to "make a mistake" with player positioning, thereby exposing gaps for him/her to exploit. Generally not recommended for obvious reasons. Space can be created by the gamer when the opposition AI is man-marking the forwards - simply drag the forward to a certain area of the pitch and the defender follows (voila, space is created and another attacking player can move into the space created to receive a pass!). The opposition AI not playing enough zone defense to counter this type of tactic is a downside that should be remedied since offense does become easier once the gamer is used to multitasking different areas of the pitch. Against human players, this is not a problem since the other guy can recognize the tactic and deal with it accordingly.

There you go again, completely disregarding the fact that I want a video game where you can find an explanation to every mistake. I do not want the AI to determine when the AI makes a mistake...... because obviously..... it goes without saying that you have fuck all control over the video game.

The bottom line is very simple. The pointer system is helplessly flawed, to begin with, because on the defensive end, the computer cannot counter it without the necessity of disregarding the ability of the gamer. That's the only reason that you need, to know why the pointer system is stupid.

I don't even know where to begin with the "gives you control over just ONE player" comment. <insert obligatory "Are you trolling?" comment here> At any given instant, you can control at least two players simultaneously (one with the analog stick, one with the pointer). Expand the timeframe past a single instant and you can conceivably control every teammate on the screen if you do drag/point commands one after another. Feel free to elaborate on why you think such a control scheme is random or even limited.

Can the Wii controls be better? Yes, definitely. Can they be simpler without losing function? I don't believe so.

Comparing a button press that represents 1/8th of your proposed control scheme to something that is half of another scheme is a bit disingenuous, no? Yeah, a single button press is simpler than infrared pointing. But you're not going to be very effective at controlling a team with just one button or even two buttons.

That's funny, I always believed that trolls disregarded your opinion, which doesn't really describe me as a poster, yet describes you just fine.

Again, and I'm hoping that this time you do understand the simple point: it does not matter if you have control over two players simultaneously, because the 1st payer (with the ball) and the 2nd player (without the ball) can do anything at any given time; which means, that on the defensive end, the computer is not intelligent nor competent enough to effectively counter what the team in possession of the ball is going to do with the ball, because the computer does not know in which direction the 2nd player will move, the computer does not know when the 2nd player will move, the computer can only create the scenario to encourage one direction at a given time, but other than that, the computer has no idea.

Whom will be the 2nd player the next time? In which direction will the 2nd player move? When will the 2nd player move? The computer has no idea, and this is why the Manual Cursor Change System is necessary, which is also why midfield battles do not exist as far as PES and FIFA go, because the precious split-seconds that are needed in order to actually have midfield battles are wasted on the redundant task of Manual Cursor Change.

Manual Cursor Change does not require any type of critical thought, it's just a button to change from one player to another player, yet the circumstances that determine the functioning of the Manual Cursor Change are completely and randomly determined by the computer; which is why, again, we have no midfield battles, because the Manual Cursor Change has nothing to do with tactics nor with off the ball movement; you're just a mouse running after the cheese.

In order to have MIDFIELD BATTLES, the gamer needs to have the freedom of choosing just ONE idea per play, so that only ONE choice becomes a reality. As a result, this means that, on the defensive end, the computer can easily contain the ball carrier by making the ONE decision that is needed. The difference between having space and not having space, would finally be sustained by a logical explanation.

On the other hand, when you have THREE different choices that have materialized simultaneously..... this means that ONE out of the mentioned three choices must be the correct one; the bottom line is, that the gamer is not creating anything, the gamer is merely reacting to whatever choices the computer provides, which is very easy because the difficult part of midfield play is creating, not reacting.

If the ball carrier cannot create, if the ball carrier can only react to whatever the computer creates on the attacking end; then what does the computer do on the defensive end?

Essentially, the computer provides you with three choices on the attacking end, the three choices materialize without your consent, you chose one of the three choices, and then the computer reacts on the defensive end. Of course, the obvious problem with such a system, is the fact that the AI determines when the AI makes a mistake, therefore completely disregarding your ability as a gamer.

How do you play a MIDFIELD BATTLE that plays itself? Simple, you cannot play it, you just ride it.

Can the Wii controls be better? Yes, definitely. Can they be simpler without losing function? I don't believe so.

Comparing a button press that represents 1/8th of your proposed control scheme to something that is half of another scheme is a bit disingenuous, no? Yeah, a single button press is simpler than infrared pointing. But you're not going to be very effective at controlling a team with just one button or even two buttons.

With the preset script system, the CF would run in accordance to the preset direction and in accordance to the preset time: from Point A (any area of the pitch) to Point B (any area of the pitch), exactly ten seconds after the 1st Sequence of the Script is manually triggered by the user.

A little clock would be seen at all times on top of the ball carrier, therefore making it easier for the ball carrier, and for the defender, to know how many seconds have passed since the 1st sequence of the Script was triggered. There are no loose ends, and the player individuality would be twice as good.

And yes, absolutely, one button is enough to dictate the movement of many players: CF moves from Point A to Point B exactly 10 seconds after the first sequence of the script is triggered by the gamer; SS moves from Point A to Point B exactly 4 seconds after the first sequence of the script is triggered, etc, etc. I do not see any flaw with it, and it can easily be aided by a new passing system to further maximize the options that you have on the pitch.

If you try to find the logic and the flaws of it, you will eventually realize that the preset script system can be perfected, unlike the pointer system.

[MysteryMan]

Nobody else will make a footy game tho so it kinda sucks, alltho if anyone would make a great game I think 2sports would be the one, their sport games are by far the best and most realistic.
The depth that nba 2k has is amazing, the inviduality, every player has his own moves , jump shots , dribbles etc... the game plays so similar to real life etc.. but well, they won't be making a footy game so no sense talking about it.

[Athlon_]

Its all gone quiet about 12 at the moment, any idea when to expect more news about the game? Particularly ML?

[Ali_BWFC]

If you check that OnlyProEvo blog, he says something about "myPES" which will be revealed at Gamescom. Sounds like it could be some online web service that links to your PSN/XBL etc, maybe somewhere where you can upload your saved replays and all that. I'm just speculating of course.

[Appswah]

When's Gamescom? Is it next week?

[Ali_BWFC]

It's from the 17th to the 21st I believe, so yeah.. next week.

[MysteryMan]

17-21.08.2011

[Appswah]

awesome.

[Macheda]

Lot's of promising new screenshots :)
http://multiplayer.it/immagini/pro-evolution-soccer-2012-pes-2012-per-pc/353859/

[adam13]

Official Konami PES 2012 Ball List

Classic
Plain
WE-PES 2002
WE-PES 2003
WE-PES 2007
WE-PES 2008
WE-PES 2009 claw
WE-PES 2010
WE-PES 2011
WE-PES 2012
Adidas Speedcell
Adidas Predator X-ite
Nike Seitiro
Nike Seitiro Hi-Vis
Puma v1.10
Puma King Ball
Puma Powercat 1.10 Ball
Umbro Neo Pro High Visibility Football
Umbro Neo Pro
The official Champions League, Europa League and Copa Libertadores balls will also remain for their respective gamemodes.
This list has been taken from the current code of PES 2012, so please be aware that this list is subject to change, in time for the retail release of PES 2012.

Konami today announced PES 2012 Licenced Stadium list

Old Trafford
Wembley Stadium
Camp Nou
Santiago Bernabeu
Stade De France
Stade Lous II
Il Nuovo Stadio Della Juventus
San Siro
Giuseppe Meazza
Stadio Olimpico
Estadio Dragao
Estadio Jose Alvalade
Estadio Da Luz
Amsterdam Arena
El Monumental
Saitama Stadium 2002
Allianz Arena


Unlicensed Stadiums

Burg Stadion
Royal London Stadium
Rose Park Stadium
Bristol Mary Stadium
Estadio Del Nuevo Triunfo
Stade De Sagittaire
Stadio Orione
Ville Marie Stadium
Estadio De Escorpiao
Estadio Amazonas
Estadio De Palenque
Konami Stadium
Mohamed Lewis Stadium

[Bredazuid]

Interesting news regarding Football Life. You can read / translate the original preview from: http://pesblog.be/nieuws/pro-evolution-soccer-2012-hands-on/

Here i translated the most interesting part:

So we can be brief about the new modes in our preview version; Football Life is the new umbrella of the Master League and Be a Legend and adds club Boss to it too. Here you are neither manager nor one of the players but the chairman of a team. Interesting concept: do transfers, hire and fire coaches and run your club financially into the right direction. It’s simular to the coachmodus in Pes2011 MLO because you can only watch the game. Quickly stimulate or watching the match in high speed is also possible.
As far as the code was finished this is the only new offline modus. The Master League itself is especially graphically improved, your alter ego constantly in the picture - your players to train. Press conferences are now depicted, although it is regrettable that the interaction is absent. you must not answer questions, you just keep looking for a movie. On the basis of the Master League has little or nothing has changed. A few new features we have spotted. For example now you can communicate with your players to find out if they are satisfied or dissatisfied and you can choose and set up daily new workout regimen. Both features appear to be still quite incomplete, because every answer to dissatisfaction of one player always gave the same result, with every player. The training regimen determine dull. Physical training ensures that you physically go up (duh?), But your technique down. Then you train on technology and the reverse takes place. It is still unclear to me what the added value of the whole concept, it even made sure that players progress quite 'broken' appeared. So my conclusion can only be that this is clearly a work in progress - it can not be that Konami their modus uno late shipping. So a final verdict is in any case impossible.

The conclusion of the complete review was that Pes 2012 will become the best footy ever if they manage to fix the keepers which seems to be in the previewed build the worst element of the game.

[Moyesavelian]

Interesting news regarding Football Life. You can read / translate the original preview from: http://pesblog.be/nieuws/pro-evolution-soccer-2012-hands-on/

Here i translated the most interesting part:

So we can be brief about the new modes in our preview version; Football Life is the new umbrella of the Master League and Be a Legend and adds club Boss to it too. Here you are neither manager nor one of the players but the chairman of a team. Interesting concept: do transfers, hire and fire coaches and run your club financially into the right direction. It’s simular to the coachmodus in Pes2011 MLO because you can only watch the game. Quickly stimulate or watching the match in high speed is also possible.


http://media.ps2.guias-trucos-juegos.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/PES-Management.jpg

[bigberry]

PES management was utter garbage .

Id quite like a manager mode like the old LMA games on ps1 , strange that a manager game hasnt came out this generation.

[Jonny16]

They probably knew that PES management as a stand alone game was utter crap so they stuck it in the main PES game so it appeals to even the managers/directors in us :)

[wipsnadepoo]

I am starting to get concerned that once KONAMI have nit addressed the obvious need in ML to switch clubs... seriously this should have been the very first improvement considered before adding anything else. How is it possible after all these years we are still waiting for this key option to be added to one of PES's most loved modes. At least if J.Murphey came out and said it was not possible to implement because of blah blah blah then at least there would be some transparentcy. But they have said nothing - they don't even acknowledge it???

[adam13]

http://media.ps2.guias-trucos-juegos.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/PES-Management.jpg

Is PES Management great?
And when it out?
About 2005?
:obamahmm:

[Aidan-lfc]

So the only thing they have added to the offline master league is player interaction??

[LuKaKu_TT]

I think PES 2012 will be a brilliant game, just a shame about Jon champion still being the commentator, god he doesn't half bore me to death at times :L

[MysteryMan]

I am starting to get concerned that once KONAMI have nit addressed the obvious need in ML to switch clubs...

I agree, I mean HONESTLY I can ignore the shitty robotic animations and all that but GOD at least implement features that WE all want for years now.

[Moyesavelian]

Is PES Management great?
And when it out?
About 2005?
:obamahmm:

I'm sure it was the pes 3 game engine.Could be wrong though.

PES management was utter garbage .Ditto

Id quite like a manager mode like the old LMA games on ps1 , strange that a manager game hasnt came out this generation.
They just don't work properly on consoles.

[Bammers05]

PES Management was great up until your team actually started playing matches, at which point it became utter garbage.