I bet it's gonna suck

[Sabatasso]

Well, obviously, I am certain that PES2012 is going to suck. They have probably reinvented some of the game, but have ignored the usual and game breaking flaws. You'll see.

But I will happily eat my own words if the game turns out great, nothing will make me happier to be honest. But at least I won't be disappointed this time around, when the game annoys the living shit out of me after a week and I desperately try to tweak it into a play-worthy condition.

[Typho2k]

im pretty sure it will be atleast better than 2011, so it wont probably be thaaattt bad.. ..hopefully

[shaun7]

Well, I am sort of in the middle, not in favour and not against. I don't buy all the hype, but at the same time, the things they're talking about make sense and there were lots of positive impressions and at the same time I don't want to end up with no football game to play because although there will be many great games this year, I just have to have a good football game and I expect it from pes the most this year.

Last year I expected it more from fifa btw. But pes 11 turned out to be much more playable although the flaws it had were SHOCKING, but it was tons more enjoyable than pes 10 somehow because it was way more balanced. So I am waiting for more to judge. :)

[Makavelian]

http://ctya.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/glass-half-full.jpg

[joekim1]

hey, its a cup of water

[muscularmatt]

Wow. Talk about miserable pessimism. With an outlook like that you probably aren't going to enjoy it.

[S-D-P]

Loved PES 2011, underrated game and not appreciated although it has caused me pain. If they fix cursor change and polish out some other bugs PES 2012 will be perfect for me.

I'm bored of the negativity on here which is why I spend more time at EVO WEB:ninja:.

pes 2011 has so many fundamentals right, first touch is crucial, 360 manual passing based on many factors, shooting based on many factors, momentum and inertia, player individuality and much more, I just hope konami dont change too much from pes 2011.

[muscularmatt]

I'm with you, SDP. I can't see what everyone is getting so pissed off about. PES 2011 is vastly different from any other in the series, and really brings the franchise forward to the world of modern computer games. I mean, how much do you actually want out of the bloody game???

[Typho2k]

according to certain sources.. the most of the big flaws from 2011 will be fixed, and with konami adding different playstyles from latino and european leagues, according to the developers, and AI being smarter, i dont see why it wont be enjoyable for those who love football.. but we'll see how it turns out..

[Montanaro]

konami adding different playstyles from latino and european leagues, according to the developers,.

:rolleyes:

So I guess they finally realized current tactical system was nowhere near adequate enough to represent various styles of football....

[Michu]

I'm with you, SDP. I can't see what everyone is getting so pissed off about. PES 2011 is vastly different from any other in the series, and really brings the franchise forward to the world of modern computer games. I mean, how much do you actually want out of the bloody game???

Cursor switching and having AI controlled defenders running away from the ball detracted from its good points (i.e the passing).

Also, as Seabass admitted in a recent video, the feint system meant decent players were able to overwhelm opponents. His words.

PES2012 though Seabass has spoken about greater emphasis on team work being able to open up defenses and more intuitive player movement.

I don't think PES2012 will be shat, I won't be rushing to buy it but I'm confident it will be a decent offering, especially now that I've seen that cursor switching will be with the right analogue stick allowing you to select anyone.

[MysteryMan]

Loved PES 2011, underrated game and not appreciated although it has caused me pain. If they fix cursor change and polish out some other bugs PES 2012 will be perfect for me.

I'm bored of the negativity on here which is why I spend more time at EVO WEB:ninja:.


I dont know what kind of fanboy you are but some of the things you wrote are just wrong.

shooting based on many factors

Like for example a world class striker going 1 on 1 and missing the goal 5 out of 10 times? that based on many factors?
That just doesn't happen in real life.

player individuality

Funny joke but seriously? The only player individuality you have is when YOU control the players, the AI players play NOTHING like real players.

[Michu]

the AI players play NOTHING like real players.

Ah, this is true, my friend and I played a World Cup on Top Player the other day and we noticed in his first game that the goal he scored ... well he shouldn't have been able to, the CPU defender ran away from the ball when it was right in front of him, Babel then scored for him and we both commented how easy a goal it was on Top Player. Granted it doesn't always happen but I beat Germany as Ghana 6-0 in my first game, and my first three goals were from weird AI.

according to certain sources.. the most of the big flaws from 2011 will be fixed, and with konami adding different playstyles from latino and european leagues, according to the developers, and AI being smarter, i dont see why it wont be enjoyable for those who love football.. but we'll see how it turns out..

Now this I am pleased about, especially seeing as It was a suggestion I made in one of my first threads on this site, regional playing styles. If its true, hats off to Konami.

[Makavelian]

My glass is definitely half full .People are getting old and miserable and asking for too much out of a yearly updated football game,wearing there tinted glasses of pro evo's of old.Even if it's a slight upgrade of last year i know it will be hours and hours and hours and hours of fun multiplayer games.No game can hold a candle to pes's longevity throughout the year.Great games come out and get boring in no time.Pes no matter how much it pisses you off and you swear you'll neve play it again you always come back.For me anyway.People compain about pes being samey samey every year, just look at cod one of the biggest selling games what has become so fucking stale same old bs every year.I'm not saying i'm fully happy with 2011 because fuck me it's flawed but even with pes 2008 theres always a way to play the game what just makes it fucking butter .I might be biased because i can't stand fifa even though i give it a chance every year,It just isnt for me.Pes is by far the most rewarding game for putting time into it and random shit happening.They are the main reasons why i've always loved pes /iss.Random shit happening,even after 6 months of play

[Michu]

The next gen offerings have been pathetic from Konami, PES2011 is the first decent installment since the upgrade but its still addled with glitches.

I love PES, as much as the next fan as I've been playing it since you guys were nippers but I hardly think its too much for Konami to deliver a progressive football game.

The problem clearly is the annual release, and you're right, its the same with COD, these franchises milk consumers. I don't think its unrealistic to expect tangible quality for a £40 video game.

I'd never play FIFA by the way. Its just not ... football.

[Makavelian]

Dear god .I've just re-read some of my posts tonight!Im not retarded just intoxicated and a shit wireless keyboard.

[Haribo]

http://ctya.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/glass-half-full.jpg

My glass is definitely half full

I thought you were just meaning "in other news, water is wet", such is the obvious statement of the OP. :joel:

[muscularmatt]

They say the pessimist says it's half empty and the optimist says it's half full.

I don't do either I'm proactive, I piss in it to fill it up.

[IronCity]

pes 2011 is a blast regardless of the problems. I do expect 2012 to be better, yet still have its problems. However, I also expect to have hours of super happy fun on it and be driving home from work above the speed limit to sneak some games in before dinner.

And you can't go to a single forum for a video game and not see miles of complaints. I don't believe a developer can make one that doesn't breed negative criticism or one that works perfectly. I think most developers are saying to themsevles at the time of release that "I wish we had one more month to fix this". But at the end of that month I bet they would be saying it over again.

[Montanaro]

They say the pessimist says it's half empty and the optimist says it's half full.

I don't do either I'm proactive, I piss in it to fill it up.

Why would you piss in it, when you could just drink it?

Surely that would be even more proactive

[S-D-P]

@the mystery man

Trust me mate I aint no fanboy, got bored of that years ago. Iv'e slated konami for the past few years and turned to fifa until pes 2011.

All those people who love pes 2011 and understand its nuances must be wrong then? and apparently I'm a fanboy for being one of those people lol.

And missing 5/10 times is based on you being wank at the game:lol:

[shaun7]

SDP. The thing about the shooting is that it's way too automatic and I really mean too much assistance. But another problem is that the assistance is not good enough as many shots that you try (placed shots especially) go in the middle most of the time even though you pressed the right buttons for it to go in the side.

So the way I see, it is to make the shooting like the passing. More semi assisted. That way, you press the directions and stuff and HE ACTUALLY TRIES TO SHOOT THERE, but then the shot would be better placed harder struck depending on the individual, the player's you're controlling.

But I do agree that the overall shooting is not bad, it's actually good enough. A few fixes here and there and it would be great. :)

[S-D-P]

SDP. The thing about the shooting is that it's way too automatic and I really mean too much assistance. But another problem is that the assistance is not good enough as many shots that you try (placed shots especially) go in the middle most of the time even though you pressed the right buttons for it to go in the side.

So the way I see, it is to make the shooting like the passing. More semi assisted. That way, you press the directions and stuff and HE ACTUALLY TRIES TO SHOOT THERE, but then the shot would be better placed harder struck depending on the individual, the player's you're controlling.

But I do agree that the overall shooting is not bad, it's actually good enough. A few fixes here and there and it would be great. :)

Shaun I am really split about this, on one hand I love the shooting as it combines the instinctive nature of striking a ball along side other contextual aspects, ie body position, momentum, angle you approach the ball and backlift etc. However I do agree with the comparisons you make to passing, I would like a system that combines what I mentioned above but with a more manual aspect, however this would be difficult to achieve.

For the most part shooting feels organic to me, but at times It can have a slightly automatic feel as if the stats work themselves rather than you being in control of the stats if that makes sense.

I do feel the system replicates real life very well and takes skill to master, but more user input without losing individuality would take it to the next level. The manual pass modifier in pes relies heavily on user input but also stats to a smaller degree, I think the shot system could take a lead from this.

[Sabatasso]

I do feel the system replicates real life very well and takes skill to master, but more user input without losing individuality would take it to the next level. The manual pass modifier in pes relies heavily on user input but also stats to a smaller degree, I think the shot system could take a lead from this.

What part of the shooting requires "skill to master" if I may ask?

The push of a single button or the doze of luck that decides if it's a hit or a miss?

I know there are some factors of speed, pressure and positioning involved, but for the most part, the game is going so fast that you can't really do anything but shoot and pray in most cases.

In other words, it's easy and it requires no leet skillz or e-penis factor to accomplish, and what you do with the stick to place the shot only affects it a tiny tiny bit.

Anyway, since I stopped shooting and started to round the keeper, I rarely score less than 5 goals per match, but if you try to shoot past the keeper on 1 on 1's you'll easily see 3-6 misses on clear cut chances, not saves but clean MISSES. THAT'S how flawed shooting really are. And I have not even started on those generic long shots.

[IronCity]

I think shots OFF goal are frustrating. But when I watch a real match I feel the number of shots OFF goal are rather comparable to PES. I have seen a lot of good shooters in the EPL in live matches rocket the ball at two times the height of the net or 6 feet to the left. That is why PES has the "oh shit, hands on head" animation for players. Happens all the time in live matches. I do agree however with the two posts above that a little more skilled control needs to be implemented, but I would still hope that 2012 will continue with a good number of off goal shots. I love the balance aspect for shooting in 2011. It often forces you to do more than a one touch effort - I imagine that coding trumps FIFA 11.

[shaun7]

Shaun I am really split about this, on one hand I love the shooting as it combines the instinctive nature of striking a ball along side other contextual aspects, ie body position, momentum, angle you approach the ball and backlift etc. However I do agree with the comparisons you make to passing, I would like a system that combines what I mentioned above but with a more manual aspect, however this would be difficult to achieve.

For the most part shooting feels organic to me, but at times It can have a slightly automatic feel as if the stats work themselves rather than you being in control of the stats if that makes sense.

I do feel the system replicates real life very well and takes skill to master, but more user input without losing individuality would take it to the next level. The manual pass modifier in pes relies heavily on user input but also stats to a smaller degree, I think the shot system could take a lead from this.

But still I do think that more user input combined with the player individuality (more like semi assisted) shooting would be much better because at least it would take more skill to place the ball where you want, but at the same time, the player's stats come into play and the ball will go closer to goal depending on the player's shooting ability.

Not like fifa semi assisted though because it's way too sensitive and there's no individuality in that apart from power, but more like the pes 11 passing. I am talking about the type of shot where you can control how hard and the direction you shoot, but then the player's ability comes in and the player will aim better if he has better shooting skills.

[S-D-P]

@Sebatasso

Not saying its perfect, but 80% of the time I understand why a shot has traveled the way it did, I feel you have to take different factors into consideration when striking the ball and this is the reason I like the shooting mechanics. For example I can create different shot types based on the way I strike the ball and the angle at which you connect with the ball, I do agree that it can feel hit or miss at times and sometimes can come down to pure luck. Hard to explain what I mean without the game in front of me, but I feel the mechanics represent real life very well.

@shaun7

I agree about more directions, at times the shooting can feel stiff and no matter where you aim it can go in a specific direction. I think the analog could be utilised much more for shooting, ie using the analog to add more backspin and top spin which would result in shots of more varying trajectory.

I would love a system with a full 360 ratio for shooting, but the key thing here is how would that take stats into account? I agree more user input is needed despite my love for the current system.

[Sabatasso]

@Sebatasso

Not saying its perfect, but 80% of the time I understand why a shot has traveled the way it did, I feel you have to take different factors into consideration when striking the ball and this is the reason I like the shooting mechanics. For example I can create different shot types based on the way I strike the ball and the angle at which you connect with the ball, I do agree that it can feel hit or miss at times and sometimes can come down to pure luck. Hard to explain what I mean without the game in front of me, but I feel the mechanics represent real life very well.


I also think it works nice in training, but in matches against AI you are always under pressure. You can't get a fucking moments relief to lay off a proper shot. This is all a problem because the defenders, regardless of Top Speed and Acceleration, are faster than Usain Bolt.

In the real world players like Messi and Ronaldo are able to shake off the defenders a tiny second to get off that shot properly, there are a few defenders who are impossible to shake off though. But in PES 2011, any defender, including 17 year old "nobodys" from Iraq stick to Messi like superglue...

If they based defense on pressure and positioning rather than constant ball chasing, they would not have to resort to such "arcade-ish" measures to resolve the two figured scorelines.

Although, I would prefer two figured scorelines in two-player over what PES 2011 produced, honestly. I would just play more, but shorter matches with my friends. Problem solved.


I would love a system with a full 360 ratio for shooting, but the key thing here is how would that take stats into account? I agree more user input is needed despite my love for the current system.

Why wouldn't stats be involved?

Now it's like this: you press shoot and press left. AI reads checking shot technique and finishing -> number crunching -> you shoot way over to the right

With control over where you want to put it: you press shoot and press left. AI readschecking shot technique and finishing -> number crunching -> you shoot outside to the left.

I don't see why that would be so hard, really. The better skill, the more precise, and more importantly, more hits on target.

Almost every time I rush toward a defender and feint right, go left and shoot "in the step", the ball goes to the right side of the goal, hits and misses alike, but my stick clearly intends that I want to shoot to the left. I can control every fucking thing else I want my player to do, why not the shot placement?

And I am not talking about flukes, I want more flukes to be honest. Flukes that goes way off, and flukes that goes straight in.

[Amateur]

What part of the shooting requires "skill to master" if I may ask?

The push of a single button or the doze of luck that decides if it's a hit or a miss?

I know there are some factors of speed, pressure and positioning involved, but for the most part, the game is going so fast that you can't really do anything but shoot and pray in most cases.

In other words, it's easy and it requires no leet skillz or e-penis factor to accomplish, and what you do with the stick to place the shot only affects it a tiny tiny bit.

Anyway, since I stopped shooting and started to round the keeper, I rarely score less than 5 goals per match, but if you try to shoot past the keeper on 1 on 1's you'll easily see 3-6 misses on clear cut chances, not saves but clean MISSES. THAT'S how flawed shooting really are. And I have not even started on those generic long shots.

Fully agree with that. The game is going so fast that you barely do anything, it is mostly determined by the computer. The fact that you cannot determine movement without also affecting your position on the pitch and without also affecting your visual perspective, tells you just how fast this game plays; it's impossible to do anything without moving through space.

And the thing that makes Lio Messi the player that he is, is not how fast he moves through space, but how skillful he is within the space. PES and FIFA still function around the same old d-pad system, which revolves around movement through space, which is why the defensive system revolves around chasing the ball like a pack of headless chickens.

The game is always running, and this directly determines the number of animations/precision which can be implemented into the game.

I miss the old responsiveness of the d-pad versions of PES, and in my opinion the only way that you can have a responsive analog based video game with *real* manual passing, is if the left analog stick determines responsive and precise things that have nothing to do with the direction that the ball carrier is looking at nor with movement that affects your position on the pitch.

So anyways, like you, I really cannot see how perfecting a shit execution should be described as something that requires skill to master. I mean, it requires some skill, but I would never describe PES11 as a hardcore video game, in my opinion it is very simplistic and dumbed down.

@shaun7

I agree about more directions, at times the shooting can feel stiff and no matter where you aim it can go in a specific direction. I think the analog could be utilised much more for shooting, ie using the analog to add more backspin and top spin which would result in shots of more varying trajectory.

I would love a system with a full 360 ratio for shooting, but the key thing here is how would that take stats into account? I agree more user input is needed despite my love for the current system.

REAL MANUAL...... Would only improve the player individuality. But you cannot have real manual if the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick cannot be used to affect little differences in accordance to just one direction: north, south, east, west, north-east, north-west, south-east, south-west.

If directing the left analog stick towards the west, without the assistance of any shoulder button, is enough to determine that the ball carrier will literally look towards the west.... as a result it is impossible to have manual passing or manual shooting.

In my opinion, real manual passing should be about,

(1st) having a total of eight generic directions, not directions of movement, but directions of visual perspective: north, south, east, west, north-east, north-west, south-east, south-west.

(2nd) directing the left analog stick, without the assistance of one of the shoulder buttons, diagonally towards the south-east: would not determine that the ball carrier will literally look towards the south-east.

(2nd) directing the left analog stick without the assistance of one of the shoulder buttons, not determining the direction that the ball carrier is looking at.

(3rd) directing the left analog stick towards the south-east without the assistance of the shoulder button, and then tapping the passing button when the ball carrier looks towards the north: the ball carrier is looking towards the north and suddenly passes the ball, not literally towards the south-east, not literally towards the north, just right between the two.

(3rd) therefore looking towards the north and passing the ball towards the east: the player would pass the ball, not literally towards the north, not literally towards the east, just right in between.

(3rd) therefore looking towards the north and passing the ball towards the south-east: the player would pass the ball closer to the east. The range of movement between east and south determining subtle differences in terms of passing directions.

(4th) as a result the range of passing directions in accordance to just one generic direction (north, south, east, west, north-east, north-west, south-east, south-west) would be much more precise. And also, as a result, heel-passes would need to be performed differently, and with players who have the ability.

(5th) the bottom line with such a system, is that a player like Xavi Hernandez would have much more passing animations than the average player, because the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick would function in accordance to just one direction.

The bottom line is that with the current game, you can only use a fraction of the capacity of movement of the left analog stick in order to determine the direction of the pass, and as a result, the player individuality in terms of passing the ball, is only determined by a fraction of the capacity of movement of the left analog stick; how much skill and player individuality can you implement into such a limited space?

As a result, the player individuality is not really manual and it's not really substantial, it works automatically; passes are laser guided by something that has little or nothing to do with your ability as a gamer.

[Ali]

Just checked the main blog for the first time in ages. The most recent post with the quotes from magazines etc sounds very promising. Of course, we've heard it all before.... but still.

[shaun7]

I only heard many positive reviews before pes 11. Right before pes 10 and 09, the previews were mixed rather than 100% positive like they are this year SO FAR. But yeah, it's better if we wait and see because I DO NOT TRUST PREVIEWS AND REVIEWS. :)

[abu97]

Jon Murphy did say pro 12 will be reliving ps2 days so, who knows, for once it'll be pes 4,5 or 6. Also, Adamneaves will be interviewing him this week so lets hope and wait

[Sabatasso]

If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

But as long as it's fun, I won't complain. I had fun with PES 2011 too, but mostly when friends and a lot of beer was involved.

[Timbone]

People are saying that the shooting is pretty good
then explain this, why is it that instead of volleying when the ball gets
to the end of the box after a corner kick, every single player even with a technique of 1, does a scissors kick?

[brado380]

Well, obviously, I am certain that PES2012 is going to suck. They have probably reinvented some of the game, but have ignored the usual and game breaking flaws. You'll see.

But I will happily eat my own words if the game turns out great, nothing will make me happier to be honest. But at least I won't be disappointed this time around, when the game annoys the living shit out of me after a week and I desperately try to tweak it into a play-worthy condition.

i bet the names are going to be gay again aswell :realmad:

[abu97]

People are saying that the shooting is pretty good
then explain this, why is it that instead of volleying when the ball gets
to the end of the box after a corner kick, every single player even with a technique of 1, does a scissors kick?

Don't you mean a shot technique of 1

[Timbone]

Don't you mean a shot technique of 1

Yeah thats right
I personally think the attacking is ok
Its just the defending that needs a complete overhaul

[louboutins60]

thank for you !

[firestorm79]

the absolute worst thing of all, which will kick our dicks right in, is that not only will there be crappy bugs and gameplay ruining glitches, but what little they got right from the previous year won't be kept in it let alone imrpoved upon...

that's the problem with the pes series - they don't understand the notion of 'building on a good foundation'. If each year they worked on what went wrong the previous year instead of trying to come up with a whole new set of fucking cheap gimmicks - which they'll get wrong anyway - we'd all be having a very different conversation right now...

[holland]

Do not expect too much. we'll just be disappointed if it does not match expectations. I'm sure PES 2012 must be very exciting :)

[Sakdov]

People are saying that the shooting is pretty good
then explain this, why is it that instead of volleying when the ball gets
to the end of the box after a corner kick, every single player even with a technique of 1, does a scissors kick?


I find the opposite ... My players always go for the volley ... No matter what i try i just cant seem to get players to scissor kick. When i played the demo i saw them all the time but retail in over 600 games i have seen them probably less than 50 times.I dunno why the majority seem to see scissor kicks all the time and some of us so little.

Maybe its because i don't mash the button while the ball is dropping? Maybe i wait for the ball to drop to the right height for the volley?

[Michu]

i bet the names are going to be gay again aswell :realmad:

Far from eloquent, but, we all know by now that licensing is always going to be an issue. Thankfully we have an option file community here that put time into correcting such minor failings.

[Sabatasso]

i bet the names are going to be gay again aswell :realmad:

Besides Gaylord, I wonder what names are truly gay... :D

[oggmeista]

Well, obviously, I am certain that PES2012 is going to suck. They have probably reinvented some of the game, but have ignored the usual and game breaking flaws. You'll see.

But I will happily eat my own words if the game turns out great, nothing will make me happier to be honest. But at least I won't be disappointed this time around, when the game annoys the living shit out of me after a week and I desperately try to tweak it into a play-worthy condition.



I think "suck" is too strong a term :huh:

In any case what may be something that you don't like might be what somebody else does like and vice versa personally I believe 100 percent it blows Fifa out of the stadium! (got fifa 11 last year due to hype uninstalled after about a week .. what aload of absoloute ***** :angry:

[Montanaro]

so...we've hardly had any more news...

[OCKRASS]

I think "suck" is too strong a term :huh:

In any case what may be something that you don't like might be what somebody else does like and vice versa personally I believe 100 percent it blows Fifa out of the stadium! (got fifa 11 last year due to hype uninstalled after about a week .. what aload of absoloute ***** :angry:

Did you say something about "....blows Fifa out of the stadium.."?

Really!:shocking:

Well take a look here buddy......and keep talking your sheeitt. :w00t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x93ib9RQY-M&NR=1

Lets Fifa Buddy.............;)

[Sabatasso]

(got fifa 11 last year due to hype uninstalled after about a week .. what aload of absoloute ***** :angry:

FIFA ain't automatically crap, just as PES aren't automatically fantastic.
Not saying that I actually believe it's gonna happen, but I would say it's a decent chance FIFA's gonna be better than PES this year.

I listen to the same crap interviews every year. I don't know about you guys, but I've never read a truly honest interview with a game producer.

Before PES 2009, Seabass went on about how great the game was, this and that fluidly implemented. The game was a hunk of unpolished crap that needed endless hours of work to be worth playing.

Same story for the 2010 version, except it never became worth playing no matter what you tweaked.

2011 was a surprise in many ways, as much of the stuff Seabass mentioned in the interviews were actually in the game. But it was poorly implemented, the same crappy AI as before, and the same hairs and graphics that has been around since forever.

One would think that a bunch of coders would be able to tweak this game into something good after so many years, as they don't seem to renew very much each year. I am still quite sure that Seabass is the only play tester, and if he is, his football knowledge is about as impressive as a barking dog.

And despite all this, I still hope for a good game. I doubt it will be fantastic, but if they at least improve PES2011 it would be a welcome addition. That is how low my expectations really are...

[shaun7]

^No man, fifa had the chance last year to get rid of pes, BUT FAILED.
As you may know, I was a pes fan, but switched to fifa in 09, but made the switch back to pes in 11. I actually got fifa 11 before pes 11 because I had faith that pes will suck and fifa will be better.

But I was wrong.

Fifa 11 in short.
Every team plays the same
No personality despite EA claiming it to be in
Career mode bugged and I really do mean BUGGED up to a point where the craeere is scripted to get rid of you at some point (after seasons with the same team, the game does everything to get rid of you. YES MAJOR SCRIPTING LIKE THE SAME PLAYER SCORING, IF YOU RESET A GAME and the same events happen if you reset the year only via a seperate save).
Strength and speed are the only attributes that matter
Technique is no where to be seen
Goal variation is VERY minimal.
Superhuman goalers, even 2nd divions gks.
Dribbling. Stupid. Messi doesn't exist on fifa because he's not tall and strong.

The list could go on forever.

Now with all that, let me tell you why I ahve to faith in fifa 12.
I listened to some interviews and the developers said
After the huge success that personality + was they will turn the focus to tackling and animations.
REALLY? REALLY?
That won't improve the game. That's only visual stuff to blind people.

It WON'T FIX THE CORE ISSUES I LISTED.

So no, rest assured that fifa 12 won't beat pes in my book and in those' who aren't blinded by fifa's animations and visual presentations.

However I agree about not expecting much because you'll be disappointed. It's better if pes 12 is truly as good as they're saying to expect less and then be surprised. :)

[Sabatasso]

So no, rest assured that fifa 12 won't beat pes in my book and in those' who aren't blinded by fifa's animations and visual presentations.

However I agree about not expecting much because you'll be disappointed. It's better if pes 12 is truly as good as they're saying to expect less and then be surprised. :)

I think you misunderstood me a bit there, because I was unlcear. But I don't believe FIFA will be better because they suddenly make a good game. But the odds are that Konami fucks it up so badly, as has happened before, that FIFA surpass them in playability anyway.

Anyway, I still kick it with PES 2009. After many modifications and tweaks, that game offer a pretty decent BAL experience.

[abu97]

fifa 09 kills pes 2009.
However after fifa 09 the gameplay has always been the same and the good thing about pes is that the gameplay actually improves but not on ps2

[shaun7]

I think you misunderstood me a bit there, because I was unlcear. But I don't believe FIFA will be better because they suddenly make a good game. But the odds are that Konami fucks it up so badly, as has happened before, that FIFA surpass them in playability anyway.

Anyway, I still kick it with PES 2009. After many modifications and tweaks, that game offer a pretty decent BAL experience.

I agree 100% about BAL. This year's bal had the best AI BUT THE RESPONSE TIME KILLS IT. It takes too long to change a direction that the defender will outrun you and outpower you. It's stupidly annoying.

I think the improved response times in pes 12 over 11 will MAKE THE BIGGEST IMPACT and will solve lots of problems in both attack and defence.

[Amateur]

FIFA ain't automatically crap, just as PES aren't automatically fantastic.
Not saying that I actually believe it's gonna happen, but I would say it's a decent chance FIFA's gonna be better than PES this year.

I listen to the same crap interviews every year. I don't know about you guys, but I've never read a truly honest interview with a game producer.

Before PES 2009, Seabass went on about how great the game was, this and that fluidly implemented. The game was a hunk of unpolished crap that needed endless hours of work to be worth playing.

Same story for the 2010 version, except it never became worth playing no matter what you tweaked.

2011 was a surprise in many ways, as much of the stuff Seabass mentioned in the interviews were actually in the game. But it was poorly implemented, the same crappy AI as before, and the same hairs and graphics that has been around since forever.

One would think that a bunch of coders would be able to tweak this game into something good after so many years, as they don't seem to renew very much each year. I am still quite sure that Seabass is the only play tester, and if he is, his football knowledge is about as impressive as a barking dog.

And despite all this, I still hope for a good game. I doubt it will be fantastic, but if they at least improve PES2011 it would be a welcome addition. That is how low my expectations really are...

The difference between PES09 and PES10, FIFA09 and FIFA10, just tells you that there is something missing.

PES11 was a massive improvement on PES10, but only in terms of execution because the fundamental areas of the game remain untouched.

It is like you mentioned. One would think that a bunch of coders would be able to implement some structure and some substance into the game, which is what the game needs the most; but clearly, the coders do not seem interested at all, since the yearly improvements are just very minor tweaks that only deal with the execution of the game without improving on the structure and substance of the game.

I think PES12 will be a decent game, because PES11 has the potential to be a decent game. However, it will not be anything innovative nor revolutionary, which is disappointing if you consider the years that have passed since PES5.

[OCKRASS]

^No man, fifa had the chance last year to get rid of pes, BUT FAILED.
As you may know, I was a pes fan, but switched to fifa in 09, but made the switch back to pes in 11. I actually got fifa 11 before pes 11 because I had faith that pes will suck and fifa will be better.

But I was wrong.

Fifa 11 in short.
Every team plays the same
No personality despite EA claiming it to be in
Career mode bugged and I really do mean BUGGED up to a point where the craeere is scripted to get rid of you at some point (after seasons with the same team, the game does everything to get rid of you. YES MAJOR SCRIPTING LIKE THE SAME PLAYER SCORING, IF YOU RESET A GAME and the same events happen if you reset the year only via a seperate save).
Strength and speed are the only attributes that matter
Technique is no where to be seen
Goal variation is VERY minimal.
Superhuman goalers, even 2nd divions gks.
Dribbling. Stupid. Messi doesn't exist on fifa because he's not tall and strong.

The list could go on forever.

Now with all that, let me tell you why I ahve to faith in fifa 12.
I listened to some interviews and the developers said
After the huge success that personality + was they will turn the focus to tackling and animations.
REALLY? REALLY?
That won't improve the game. That's only visual stuff to blind people.

It WON'T FIX THE CORE ISSUES I LISTED.

So no, rest assured that fifa 12 won't beat pes in my book and in those' who aren't blinded by fifa's animations and visual presentations.

However I agree about not expecting much because you'll be disappointed. It's better if pes 12 is truly as good as they're saying to expect less and then be surprised. :)

Sup Shaun,

I respect the fact that you have gone back to PES but please do not let your lack of skill blur your understanding of what Fifa has evolved into....a great solid game.

Firstly, not every team plays the same way in Fifa! If that was so Chicago Red Bulls would up against Real Madrid online everyday. Ridiculous!

Next, Personality plus is evident in the game. Especially in players like CR9, Messi, Drogba and a very strong defender named Pepe.....(Anyone who plays Fifa feels this)

Not all the players have Personality + but it is evident to all Fifa players like myself. Still a work in progress. But some players have better passing, dribbling and techique than others. Would you call that a personality?

Career Mode is bugged. I will admit that.

Strength and speed are a couple attributes that add to the personality of players in Fifa. Drogba strong and CR9 fast. However, players like Messi and CR9 have a personality of technique which has to be practiced and mastered.

I am sure you have seen vids of Fifa online with players labelled "skillers" who uses the techniques of players to beat their competition.
Nut megs, Rabonas, 360 turns, side steps ...you name it, once mastered the game becomes really fun. This also adds to goal variation which you mentioned, maybe because you could only score from one section of the field. The variation of goals in Fifa super exceeds PES.

Currently, there are only a few skills in PES making the game a run, pass and shoot game. Players in PES cannot even juggle a ball ....but yet still some think it is more "realistic" than Fifa. Do you recognize the dept of skill, technique and variation of animations in Fifa? I don't think so.

Let me also address the talk of "scripting" in video games. I have seen the misuse of the term in an effort to justify the poor skills of users like yourself in games.

EVERY SINGLE MOVE IN ANY VIDEO GAME IS CONTROLLED BY A PRE-DESIGNED SCRIPT. THIS INCLUDES PLAYER INPUT AND AI REACTIONS. THESE SCRIPTS ARE CODED INTO EVERY VIDEO GAME.

PLAYER INPUT IS ALSO A SCRIPT. EXAMPLE

IF A PASSES BALL B INTERCEPTS Y OR N
IF Y OPPOSITION WINS BALL
IF N A PASSES AGAIN ....

Now, have you ever noticed that when you have the ball and try to pass it to a player, he passes it to someone else? Bad scripting yes.

PES is riddled with that.

Now, when defenders in PES run away from oncoming forwards...it is infact the cause of bad coding or scripting. Like movies, the directors planned it out badly.

Now, when a team attacks and you are unable to defend and the same player keeps scoring against you....unless ...

1) You cannot foul him even if you try..he "ghosts" thru limbs
2) You cannot control your defenders...(cursor switch prob by PES)
3) You cannot keep a steady defense back line (bad AI)

....then you just maybe sheit at the game and need more practice.

Let me make this clear.

Fifa is a better game that PES because the coding/scripting in Fifa is less flawed. Still flawed but by less. Get that str8.

I hope this opens up some light for you on video games.

Ohhh....just a quick note. Fifa has kicked PES arse for the past 3yrs ...very badly. Seabass has also recently admitted the superiority and leadership of Fifa to PES.

Do you know why?

PESgaming and Pes supporter since 2004
Not a member of a single Fifa site
I dare you to say I am a Fifa Fanboy :lol:


peace

[shaun7]

@OCKRASS
I never said pes was flawless. It's actually quite flawed, but not fundamentally flawed like fifa is. Pes only has bad execution but at it's core, it's quite good. Fifa is the other way round. It executes everything nicely and looks finished, but at it's core, it's just gloss over cracks.

Firstly, not every team plays the same way in Fifa! If that was so Chicago Red Bulls would up against Real Madrid online everyday. Ridiculous!
Every team can score the same goals (which there isn't many different goals to begin with) and apart from speed and strength, the players all feel the same. A slight difference in passing, but barely noticebale.


Next, Personality plus is evident in the game. Especially in players like CR9, Messi, Drogba and a very strong defender named Pepe.....(Anyone who plays Fifa feels this)

Not all the players have Personality + but it is evident to all Fifa players like myself. Still a work in progress. But some players have better passing, dribbling and techique than others. Would you call that a personality?

Apart from speed and strength, the players are all the same. And technique does not exist in fifa. All it does it the tricks, tricks and tricks. You cannot do the messi style in fifa. Fifa's moves are all flair that doesn't make it right. It's imbalanced. The personality is slightly better, but again, only in evident areas like speed and strength and VERY SLIGHTLY in passing.

Strength and speed are a couple attributes that add to the personality of players in Fifa. Drogba strong and CR9 fast. However, players like Messi and CR9 have a personality of technique which has to be practiced and mastered.

I am sure you have seen vids of Fifa online with players labelled "skillers" who uses the techniques of players to beat their competition.
Nut megs, Rabonas, 360 turns, side steps ...you name it, once mastered the game becomes really fun. This also adds to goal variation which you mentioned, maybe because you could only score from one section of the field. The variation of goals in Fifa super exceeds PES.

Correction. Strength and speed and overrated especially strength in fifa and are the only attributes that really matter in the game. Technique does not exist because of the superhuman pressure and the fact that every time you beat a defender, you will enter a battle of strength at some point and players like messi will not prevail. Where is the body balance in fifa? Nowhere because strength is all that matters.

And the dribbling. You said it yourself. YOU HAVE TO USE TRICKS and that's the stupid part about fifa. WHY WOULD YOU USE TRICKS? In real life, there are other types of dribbling manouvers to do, but are lacking in fifa. And the goal variation beats pes?

I don't think so. I have ALMOST never scored the same goal twice in 1 ML SEASON in pes 11. In fifa I can score the same goal 3 times in 1 match. Start running from the wing with a fast and strong player, double pass, go from the side of the keeper, pass the ball to the attacker and goal. That's the typical goal in fifa.

Currently, there are only a few skills in PES making the game a run, pass and shoot game. Players in PES cannot even juggle a ball ....but yet still some think it is more "realistic" than Fifa. Do you recognize the dept of skill, technique and variation of animations in Fifa? I don't think so

There are more than just a few tricks in pes, but I agree, they aren't well executed. However, pes has other important areas where fifa fails. And that's OUTHINKING A DEFENDER by fooling a direction or by changing speed in a sudden. Messi style can be done in pes. A battle of strength when dribbling can be done, flair dirbbling like CR9 can be done too. Technique and agility matter in pes unlike in fifa.

Animations are crap in pes. I said it a million time that it's just a shame that a ps3 game has those animations.

BTW, both games are scripted but fifa 11 is on another level.
If I reset a game in pes, I never get the same result, because pes scripts at the begining of the match. However after 3 season in career on fifa, it SCRIPTS THE WHOLE SEAOSON, INCLUDING THE WEATHER FOR EVERY MATCH. I tried it and the same things happened.

In the end, both are scripted and THIS NEEDS SERIOUS SORTING. :)

[oggmeista]

Did you say something about "....blows Fifa out of the stadium.."?

Really!:shocking:

Well take a look here buddy......and keep talking your sheeitt. :w00t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x93ib9RQY-M&NR=1

Lets Fifa Buddy.............;)

Just eye candy so??:tongue:

Buddy I haven't just jumped on a bandwagon here I been watching fifa game for years & years its the fudementals that at all wrong licenses fancy gfx and now even greater managerial element wont save the game "in my eyes"

Where is the art of football in the game?

If you want mangement game you want PEs married uo to football manager now that would me a match made in heaven:dancer:

As far as im concerned im only giving fifa 2 pluses over pes Its licenses and its commentary other tyhan that cant really think of anything
Just remember how much hype there about fifa 11 .. so I got it 2nd hanf yuck!! what a terrible game
It was off my hdd within a week :lol::lol:

[oggmeista]

@OCKRASS
I never said pes was flawless. It's actually quite flawed, but not fundamentally flawed like fifa is. Pes only has bad execution but at it's core, it's quite good. Fifa is the other way round. It executes everything nicely and looks finished, but at it's core, it's just gloss over cracks.


Every team can score the same goals (which there isn't many different goals to begin with) and apart from speed and strength, the players all feel the same. A slight difference in passing, but barely noticebale.




Apart from speed and strength, the players are all the same. And technique does not exist in fifa. All it does it the tricks, tricks and tricks. You cannot do the messi style in fifa. Fifa's moves are all flair that doesn't make it right. It's imbalanced. The personality is slightly better, but again, only in evident areas like speed and strength and VERY SLIGHTLY in passing.



Correction. Strength and speed and overrated especially strength in fifa and are the only attributes that really matter in the game. Technique does not exist because of the superhuman pressure and the fact that every time you beat a defender, you will enter a battle of strength at some point and players like messi will not prevail. Where is the body balance in fifa? Nowhere because strength is all that matters.

And the dribbling. You said it yourself. YOU HAVE TO USE TRICKS and that's the stupid part about fifa. WHY WOULD YOU USE TRICKS? In real life, there are other types of dribbling manouvers to do, but are lacking in fifa. And the goal variation beats pes?

I don't think so. I have ALMOST never scored the same goal twice in 1 ML SEASON in pes 11. In fifa I can score the same goal 3 times in 1 match. Start running from the wing with a fast and strong player, double pass, go from the side of the keeper, pass the ball to the attacker and goal. That's the typical goal in fifa.



There are more than just a few tricks in pes, but I agree, they aren't well executed. However, pes has other important areas where fifa fails. And that's OUTHINKING A DEFENDER by fooling a direction or by changing speed in a sudden. Messi style can be done in pes. A battle of strength when dribbling can be done, flair dirbbling like CR9 can be done too. Technique and agility matter in pes unlike in fifa.

Animations are crap in pes. I said it a million time that it's just a shame that a ps3 game has those animations.

BTW, both games are scripted but fifa 11 is on another level.
If I reset a game in pes, I never get the same result, because pes scripts at the begining of the match. However after 3 season in career on fifa, it SCRIPTS THE WHOLE SEAOSON, INCLUDING THE WEATHER FOR EVERY MATCH. I tried it and the same things happened.

In the end, both are scripted and THIS NEEDS SERIOUS SORTING. :)


the discussion wars start once more :lol2:


:willis: what u talking about

:lol::lol::lol:


Havent read it all but I think you got them told

:chick::chick::chick::hamster: :hamster::hamster::chick::chic k:


:bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo: WELL SAID

[Sabatasso]

fifa 09 kills pes 2009.
However after fifa 09 the gameplay has always been the same and the good thing about pes is that the gameplay actually improves but not on ps2

You're entitled to your opinion. But the last Fifa I actually liked was Fifa 2000. And that was mainly because it was the only footy game I had at the time.

[Sabatasso]

I respect the fact that you have gone back to PES but please do not let your lack of skill blur your understanding of what Fifa has evolved into....a great solid game.


No offense, but you're blinded by the graphics. A bunch of screenshots does not say anything about the game to be honest. And FYI, I have scored all possible goals in FIFA11, all three of them. Long shot in the angle, heading and set piece.

Fifa is the kind of game that really gives you the feeling of Deja-Vu. It doesn't look half bad, but once you've seen it a few times, it gets really evident that the same old railroad tracks are still there, just more of them than before.

If you like FIFA, fine, good for you. But Fifa suffer from more or less the same errors that PES do, in addition to the railroad tracks. At the moment there are no good footy games on the market, so let's just stop pretending and pray for a good game next.

EDIT: What I really mean to say is good for you if you like Fifa, but most of us has also played it, so you don't have to explain to us how "good" it is.

[abu97]

You might pray for a game with good gameplay, but i'm praying for a football game with good game modes and i already know pes has 'football life' however i got a small feeling it's not gonna addict me or it's some renamed version of master league where you can actually change teams or it's just some crapper version BAL

[Sabatasso]

You might pray for a game with good gameplay, but i'm praying for a football game with good game modes and i already know pes has 'football life' however i got a small feeling it's not gonna addict me or it's some renamed version of master league where you can actually change teams or it's just some crapper version BAL

I wouldn't care if the game modes gave me a blowjob if the gameplay sucked to be honest...

[abu97]

Well yeah no one would play a game mode if the gameplay sucked but i wouldn't mind the gameplay being average if the gameplay was actually good - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqS-hPGU64Y
This shows the new mode and doesn't look good so far

[Sabatasso]

So there will be no BAL and ML, just this "Football Life"?

[abu97]

Probably - that is what F*FA 11 did with career mode - you have the chance to be player/manager, player or just manager so i got the feeling pes has copied EA again

[Sabatasso]

Probably - that is what F*FA 11 did with career mode - you have the chance to be player/manager, player or just manager so i got the feeling pes has copied EA again

At least get your facts straight before you accuse anyone of copying... The legend "career" mode was invented long before FIFA and PES ever did anything similar.

[shaun7]

Oh, it'll be like fifa only if this football life still has the same bugs. We have to wait and see about that one.

Also, I'd take gamplay over any mode, BUT, BAL alone saved pes 09 from being thrown in the bin for most people. But still gameplay is priority.

[Sabatasso]

Interesting... the "managers" in BAL only annoy the living shit out of me anyway... this might not turn out so bad after all.

I'm really looking forward to this now, with scepticism ofcourse.

[OCKRASS]

@OCKRASS
I never said pes was flawless. It's actually quite flawed, but not fundamentally flawed like fifa is. Pes only has bad execution but at it's core, it's quite good. Fifa is the other way round. It executes everything nicely and looks finished, but at it's core, it's just gloss over cracks.

Don't understand what you are saying here. PES is bad at the core and Fifa isn't but PES is better....? What :shocking:

@OCKRASS
Every team can score the same goals (which there isn't many different goals to begin with) and apart from speed and strength, the players all feel the same. A slight difference in passing, but barely noticebale.

From your statement here, I now that you have not really played Fifa 11. Anyone who plays Fifa could not make a statement like that.


@OCKRASS
Correction. Strength and speed and overrated especially strength in fifa and are the only attributes that really matter in the game. Technique does not exist because of the superhuman pressure and the fact that every time you beat a defender, you will enter a battle of strength at some point and players like messi will not prevail. Where is the body balance in fifa? Nowhere because strength is all that matters.

Flip Flapping. Do you expect Messi to physically hold off defenders? Although the pressure in Fifa 11 is tad too much, it brings realism to the game. I have never played or watch a game where defender run away from attackers like PES. Pressure is a part of football and strength is a part also. Fifa players like Drogba and Ibrah" have strength to hold off defenders. There are others ...but i don't think you would know who i am talking about.


@OCKRASS
And the dribbling. You said it yourself. YOU HAVE TO USE TRICKS and that's the stupid part about fifa. WHY WOULD YOU USE TRICKS? In real life, there are other types of dribbling manouvers to do, but are lacking in fifa. And the goal variation beats pes?

Jesus Christ! Do you know who Pele, Maradona, Ronaldinho, CR9 and Messi are? Do you know why they are popular? Do you even watch or play football. Without tricks, what would football be?

@OCKRASS
I don't think so. I have ALMOST never scored the same goal twice in 1 ML SEASON in pes 11. In fifa I can score the same goal 3 times in 1 match. Start running from the wing with a fast and strong player, double pass, go from the side of the keeper, pass the ball to the attacker and goal. That's the typical goal in fifa.

You my dear Shaun, have never played Fifa past the beginners level.


@OCKRASS
There are more than just a few tricks in pes, but I agree, they aren't well executed. However, pes has other important areas where fifa fails. And that's OUTHINKING A DEFENDER by fooling a direction or by changing speed in a sudden. Messi style can be done in pes. A battle of strength when dribbling can be done, flair dirbbling like CR9 can be done too. Technique and agility matter in pes unlike in fifa.

Ooh Dear....:facepalm:

Case closed!

the discussion wars start once more :lol2:


:willis: what u talking about

:lol::lol::lol:


Havent read it all but I think you got them told

:chick::chick::chick::hamster: :hamster::hamster::chick::chic k:


:bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo: WELL SAID


Hold up!

Who are you cheering for bro .....was that for me or Shaun?

:lol2:

Just eye candy so??:tongue:

Buddy I haven't just jumped on a bandwagon here I been watching fifa game for years & years its the fudementals that at all wrong licenses fancy gfx and now even greater managerial element wont save the game "in my eyes"

Where is the art of football in the game?

If you want mangement game you want PEs married uo to football manager now that would me a match made in heaven:dancer:

As far as im concerned im only giving fifa 2 pluses over pes Its licenses and its commentary other tyhan that cant really think of anything
Just remember how much hype there about fifa 11 .. so I got it 2nd hanf yuck!! what a terrible game
It was off my hdd within a week :lol::lol:

Sup oggmeista?

I like eye candy man...Please don't make fun of it ....:jongcrymore:

...off your hard drive....are you a PC gamer?

[shaun7]

Don't understand what you are saying here. PES is bad at the core and Fifa isn't but PES is better....? What
No fifa is bad at it's core not pes. Fifa looks finished but at it's core, it's not balanced at all.
Pes is better at balancing stuff, (level of tricks, and attributes THAT MATTER) but lacks the finishing and the gloss that fifa has.


From your statement here, I now that you have not really played Fifa 11. Anyone who plays Fifa could not make a statement like that.
Well, I got fifa 11 BEFORE PES 11, because I had faith in fifa delivering a better game, so I did play it alot and THE GOAL VARIATION SUCKS compared to pes. EVEN ISS 2 HAD BETTER GOAL VARIATION THAN FIFA 11.


Flip Flapping. Do you expect Messi to physically hold off defenders? Although the pressure in Fifa 11 is tad too much, it brings realism to the game. I have never played or watch a game where defender run away from attackers like PES. Pressure is a part of football and strength is a part also. Fifa players like Drogba and Ibrah" have strength to hold off defenders. There are others ...but i don't think you would know who i am talking about.
MESSI is strong, maybe not as strong as some players, BUT HIS BALANCE IS INCREDIBLE. And the balance attribute is totally missing in fifa.
Oh and defenders running away is a pes issue, I never argued about that.

And it's actually the other way round. You don't know what I am talking about. The dribbling is stupid in ffia. Messi's style does not exist. only strength matters and that's WHERE IT FAILS.
There's no variation in the dribbling because the game revolves around strength. Strength is important in real life, BUT TECHNIQUE PLAYS A bigger part in the real game, because a good technical player can outsmart a strong defender and fool him in a way where he won't go into a battle of strength with him. FIFA FAILS AT REPLICATING THIS.


Jesus Christ! Do you know who Pele, Maradona, Ronaldinho, CR9 and Messi are? Do you know why they are popular? Do you even watch or play football. Without tricks, what would football be?

Pele and Messi didn't use tricks, they use feints to outsmart a defender and then use their agility to their advantage. I am saying that fifa doesn't replicate the dribbling well because you have to use tricks and WHEN DID I EVER SEE MESSI DOING ROULETTES AND FLIP FLAPPING OR BALL ROLLING to beat a defender like in fifa? Nowhere. Why? Because Messi uses his agility to turn at angles where the defender cannot and he uses his close control skills to destroy the defenders. CLOSE CONTROL DOES NOT EXIST IN FIFA.

You my dear Shaun, have never played Fifa past the beginners level.

Just for you to know, my career mode runs were always at WORLD CLASS. ;)

[wallpaper_01]

Really have to agree with Shaun7 here... Watch the premier league, Id say I watch maybe 100 games a season from random teams, that's around 150 hours of football, mostly the top 4 teams. At the end of the season I can remember the tricks that have amazed me over the season, that being maybe 6 different instances of Nani, Nasri, Young, Torres, Berbatov or whoever doing a good skill in a game and impressing me. That is about, Id say 30 seconds of skill action over the 150 hours that I watch... Please don't go on about skill moves, it is a stupid argument. 99% of players don't even do step overs...

Even Messi doesnt do much, his passing movement, close control is what makes him amazing! This is definitely better realised in PES, by miles!

Next thing I agree with shaun7 is how scripted Fifa feels. 70% of my friends play Fifa. So when they come round peer pressure forces me to put it on unless they wont play... Yep annoying but I want to play football games while I drink before I go out so fair enough! I have to say it is shocking how scripted Fifa feels. Every team passes like Barca, like DEAD to their feet. Got used to passing ahead of players in PES... Lots of times when I get thru on an angle its the same shot and same save, really boring im sorry.

I kind of compare PES to Fifa like Halo to COD. Some may disagree but COD is a great game its solid on the surface and is good fun but it is extremely repetitive. Where Halo has more less scripted random moments which sometimes people will say is glitches or brilliance at times. Moments that make you shout and laugh and be amazed! I know PES hasnt improved much in animations, sponsors but the core football gameplay was nailed years ago and it is still fun today. I like that they havnt tried to get every skill in there because how often do we really see this????

I think if you are a true football fan you prefere PES because it is more about team build up and captures the emotion of the game near perfect! I will be buying PES 2012! Common guys, the game last year was good, Konami sort out the tactics and it could be pretty close to the real thing! :D Oh yeah and online mode needs to be less laggy IMO, might just be my connection though :/

[Cristiano92]

I completeley with shaun7 here.

[Sabatasso]

As I've said before, and I say it again. shaun7 is the voice of reason in these discussions.

I agree with everything I actually read, which is about 70% of that loooong post.

@OCKRASS
You must have a really good imagination. I wish I was able to settle for FIFA and just imagine that it was good like you do. No offense intended, honestly.

[OCKRASS]

As I've said before, and I say it again. shaun7 is the voice of reason in these discussions.

I agree with everything I actually read, which is about 70% of that loooong post.

@OCKRASS
You must have a really good imagination. I wish I was able to settle for FIFA and just imagine that it was good like you do. No offense intended, honestly.

None taken Sabatasso!:)

I am not trying to waste any time trying to convince anyone that Fifa is actually better than PES. To each his own i always say.

However, I did the exact same thing as Shaun a few years back when anyone mentioned Fifa. I just said what others said that the game was no good, lack of variation of shots...etc...and everyone jump in and say yeah Ockrass....

The fact is, like Shaun, i never really played Fifa.

After making the leap and now investing the same amount of time on Fifa as i did on PES, i have realized that Fifa is far more superior to PES.

I am sure i will not convince anyone here that Fifa is the shit ...but i hate to see people knock the game knowing well enough that they don't really play the game.

Pes was a great game on PS2. Currently none of my friends who played PES on ps2 play it anymore. We are where millions of players like us are today ...........playing Fifa.

For me compared to where PES was on PS2 to now ........PES sucks major balls....but year after year i am here just hoping ....

[shaun7]

The fact is, like Shaun, i never really played Fifa
HOW CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY WHAT I PLAYED AND WHAT I DID?

I mean seriously. I stated many times that i went with fifa in 09 and actually defended fifa. It was fifa 11 that put me away AFTER 3 CAREER MODE RUNS. 1 with Athletico Madrid (where I was forced to quit with a super glitch)
The other with Barca which was very short as I got bored of beating everyone.
Then the last one was Lyon where I won the champions league 3 times in a row and I also won the league 4 times in a row.

That was up until March or something like that. So I have given fifa 11 time. And it was at that moment when I realized that fifa just glosses everything up to cover MAJOR cracks. So big that football isn't what it is on the game at all.

[Bredazuid]

I am 35 years old now and play footies from my 12th year. I have played them all…., i had more than 20 different footies on my Amiga 1200.

In that time World of Sensible Soccer was the absolute bomb. I still not understand why either Fifa or Konami didn’t copy that concept. For people who remember those days they will know what i mean..

Then later ISS came. The best footy year after year with an unique control.
ISS was fantastic. In that game were already gameplay features i still miss today in Pes.

For example, did you know you could control the keeper completely in ISS? U could switch the cursor to your keeper, come out on the goal and press the button when you wanted your keeper to dive. In the beginning it was really hard but after enough practice it was defenately possible to become better than the AI keeper.

When the ISS series ended there were two options to choose at.. Pro Evolution or Fifa. For a real footy expert the choice was pretty easy. Fifa is, especially due to the First 10 seasons, no option. Its just not the game to play hundreds of hours, not exciting enough.

Pes was always better but they just dont understand to improve it to the next level. One year they have a good improvement, the next year its out.. You just cant figur out the logic if you look back at all these changes year after year. Lack of strategy. And thats why i doubt it will ever become a footy how it should be at 2012.

To be honest i really hoped there would come a new “competitor” , an alternative for Pes and Fifa. A footy programmed by an European team who always were Pes addicted. I have the idea the Japanese just dont understand to make it perfect.

[Sabatasso]

I am 35 years old now and play footies from my 12th year. I have played them all…., i had more than 20 different footies on my Amiga 1200.

In that time World of Sensible Soccer was the absolute bomb. I still not understand why either Fifa or Konami didn’t copy that concept. For people who remember those days they will know what i mean..

Then later ISS came. The best footy year after year with an unique control.
ISS was fantastic. In that game were already gameplay features i still miss today in Pes.

For example, did you know you could control the keeper completely in ISS? U could switch the cursor to your keeper, come out on the goal and press the button when you wanted your keeper to dive. In the beginning it was really hard but after enough practice it was defenately possible to become better than the AI keeper.

When the ISS series ended there were two options to choose at.. Pro Evolution or Fifa. For a real footy expert the choice was pretty easy. Fifa is, especially due to the First 10 seasons, no option. Its just not the game to play hundreds of hours, not exciting enough.

Pes was always better but they just dont understand to improve it to the next level. One year they have a good improvement, the next year its out.. You just cant figur out the logic if you look back at all these changes year after year. Lack of strategy. And thats why i doubt it will ever become a footy how it should be at 2012.

To be honest i really hoped there would come a new “competitor” , an alternative for Pes and Fifa. A footy programmed by an European team who always were Pes addicted. I have the idea the Japanese just dont understand to make it perfect.

Thanks for the history lesson. Anyway, I do remember Kick Off, Sensible Soccer, and even Emlyn Hughes Soccer (C64). And while I agree that SWOS was fun, it was pretty far from a good football game. The realism is non existent, hardly any physics and 7-5 results are far too common in that game.

And to be honest, everyone here has a great idea of how to make the perfect game, it's just sad that no one actually has the skills to do it.

Anyway, since I discovered http://yair12pespatch.blogspot.com/ and http://jenkey1002.blogspot.com/ new AI system for PES2011, I don't really worry about PES2012. yair12's 1.1.2 patch change PES2011 into a great game. If PES2012 sucks, then I'll just keep playing PES2011 until yair12 and jenkey1002 fix it.

If they can fix PES2011, they can fix anything, I have no doubt.

[Amateur]

For me compared to where PES was on PS2 to now ........PES sucks major balls....but year after year i am here just hoping ....

The problem with PES is that Konami does not want to reinvent PES and instead is going down slowly but steady, year after year. That's not to say that FIFA is better, because FIFA is more or less the same shit.

The fact that the Wii version of PES offered something new to the gamer, and yet the PS3 versions of PES does not offer anything new.... says it all. Seabass is in charge of the PS3 version of PES, but Seabass is not in charge of the Wii version of PES.

I do not like to say it, because I enjoyed video games like PES5 and PES6 a great deal, but Seabass does seem to be out of ideas. It's year 2011 and Seabass still has not found the way of reinventing PES.

And obviously, PES12 will be more of the same bullshit. No movement within the space. Scripted gameplay (they call it "Active AI" now). Stupid defensive system. The usual minor tweaks. It's just not good enough anymore.

I am 35 years old now and play footies from my 12th year. I have played them all…., i had more than 20 different footies on my Amiga 1200.

In that time World of Sensible Soccer was the absolute bomb. I still not understand why either Fifa or Konami didn’t copy that concept. For people who remember those days they will know what i mean..

Then later ISS came. The best footy year after year with an unique control.
ISS was fantastic. In that game were already gameplay features i still miss today in Pes.

For example, did you know you could control the keeper completely in ISS? U could switch the cursor to your keeper, come out on the goal and press the button when you wanted your keeper to dive. In the beginning it was really hard but after enough practice it was defenately possible to become better than the AI keeper.

When the ISS series ended there were two options to choose at.. Pro Evolution or Fifa. For a real footy expert the choice was pretty easy. Fifa is, especially due to the First 10 seasons, no option. Its just not the game to play hundreds of hours, not exciting enough.

Pes was always better but they just dont understand to improve it to the next level. One year they have a good improvement, the next year its out.. You just cant figur out the logic if you look back at all these changes year after year. Lack of strategy. And thats why i doubt it will ever become a footy how it should be at 2012.

To be honest i really hoped there would come a new “competitor” , an alternative for Pes and Fifa. A footy programmed by an European team who always were Pes addicted. I have the idea the Japanese just dont understand to make it perfect.

Fully agree with you. I also am hoping that a third party exposes PES and FIFA as outdated and simplistic video games.

Though the great thing about PES. Is that even if it is exposed as the scripted bullshit that it is. It will still sell, because it's easy to play, it's pick up and play, it's cheap entertainment.

The other great thing about PES. Is that it never actually evolves. That's why so much emphasis is placed on the Pro EVOLUTION Soccer. Because it's clearly sarcastic.

Konami is not genuinely interested in making a better game. That much is obvious after so many years of redundant tweaks and tweaks that amount to nothing. PES is the perfect money maker. Konami can always justify the lack of progress by saying that certain improvements would destroy the precious player individuality.

ISS was better than PES. PES is a dumbed down version of ISS. And I expect to see a dumbed down version of PES somehere in the next four years. It's the dumbing down of the genre. I just hope that a third party comes up with the hardcore footy sim sooner rather than later.

[Sabatasso]

Games are being dumbed down as a result of console gaming. The general console gamer wants easy games with nice graphics, and that's what they get. The problem is that they don't make real games for PC either anymore, we just get a crappy ported version that don't even use half the capability of the PC.

If you buy console games, then you are supporting the downward spiral even more. I'd say be a pirate, or buy price dumped games for PC until the gaming industry actually make an effort to make something good.

[MichelBallack]

Well, obviously, I am certain that PES2012 is going to suck. They have probably reinvented some of the game, but have ignored the usual and game breaking flaws. You'll see.

But I will happily eat my own words if the game turns out great, nothing will make me happier to be honest. But at least I won't be disappointed this time around, when the game annoys the living shit out of me after a week and I desperately try to tweak it into a play-worthy condition.

ditto, same thing happening with konami now. i remember waiting for fifa 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002... xxx they fix something, they fuck another just to keep us hoping for a better version.

the name of this game should be "22 Monkeys and a ball"