Interfering With Play 22/01/08
Posted by Dan Bolas in Interfering With Play on Tue 22 Jan
Welcome to this weeks Interfering With Play. As regular readers know, last week saw the first of six sections regarding the Seabass letter, which hopefully will have some sort of influence on the development of PES2009. This week, Interfering With Play is going to be focusing on Game play, an area of the Pro Evolution Soccer Series that has always been head and shoulders above any other football game. As usual, any comments are welcomed at the bottom of this article, or directly into my e-mail inbox.
Seabass Letter: Game Play
This week’s topic for the Seabass letter is regards the Game play of PES2008 in game, and possible ways it could be improved for 2009. Here, feel free to read the ideas, and comment on their importance to you as a PES gamer, along with developing any that may sound like a good idea. These are the collective views of many gamers, along with my own personal views and those of my PES playing mates.
PES2008 was the first Pro Evolution Soccer game that had serious questions raised about its Game Play. The old generation versions of the game were adjudged to not have progressed enough, whilst the next generation versions have been ridiculed for a number of reasons. Anyone who has been a fan of the PES series since the beginning will be able to tell that the latest instalment feels like a Konami game, but there seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing. The first part of this is defiantly down to the offline slowdown so many gamers have experienced. I am not referring to the online section, as this will be covered next week, however the slowdown when playing at certain stadiums or playing against a friend offline, which is totally unacceptable. PES has always been praised for being the realistic gaming experience with the way the ball deflects, moves and rolls, with everything from physics and fatigue taken into account to get an accurate portrayal of a game of football. The first law should therefore be that it all runs smoothly, and that the action should not slowdown in and around the penalty area, at a time when timing of tackles or shot power is imperative. I am aware that this has affected some gamers more than others, with different camera angles and stadiums providing different degrees of lag. This, however, is completely and utterly unacceptable. In a day and age where 32 players can play online without any slowdown, a next generation console should not be slowing down due to too much going on, and it is a problem that if not rectified in the next edition of PES, will cost Konami a lot of money, and a lot of customers.
On those games that do not suffer from lag, PES is still a very enjoyable gaming experience, and whilst some doubters have been writing the game off entirely, on its day it still recreates the magic of a realistic game of football, with unlucky deflections, great challenges and mazy dribbles. A criticism of the ISS Pro Evolution Soccer 2, one of the final PSONE versions of the Konami game was that speed players seemed to be untouchable, and playing quick players out of position, for example Owen at Centre Back, would still result in a victory. Throughout the PES series, the importance of passing has developed, with players like Beckham, Gerrard and Xavi being as crucial a part of a successful side at the more glamorous speed players. PES2008 has seen the series revert to the times of old though, and the quicker players now seem to have more influence than ever. Yes, this is true in real life football matches, but it needs to be controlled much more. The fact that given very little space, a player like Kaka or Ronaldo can still outrun the entire opponents defence and score four or five a game is something that seriously needs to be addressed, be it by an overhaul of the running and dribbling mechanics or by improving defensive A.I. Of course, that is not to say that the quick players should not have the devastating affects, anyone who has been watching the Premier League the last 18 months will be able to appreciate the importance of pace to a player like Cristiano Ronaldo, but being making speed the number one priority, it takes away from beautiful passing football, something which is an equally important part of the game.
Defending has always been a hit or miss thing in football games, and the PES series has seen a number of different approaches to it, some successful some not so much. This last instalment of the game turned certain aspects of it into a more luck than judgement scenario, especially when defending crosses or high balls. Defenders would constantly go missing, and especially playing with national teams, it would not be uncommon to see the CB up in open play on the right wing. PES5 worked well due to being able to position your defenders early, to read the play and maybe intercept the ball, and this is something that would be welcomed back in 2009. Too often defenders are in useless positions, something again which needs to be addressed by the Konami A.I team.
Having spoke shortly about the A.I of PES, I feel it would be a fair time to quickly mention the Team Vision aspect of the game. For many people, it is seen as a case of ‘the emperor’s new clothes’ whereby if someone tells you it is there; start to notice things that aren’t really there. Football is as unpredictable as any sport, and as a result the A.I needs to try and read every possible outcome. Doing so means it would be impossible to score, and as a result they need to bring in an element of human error. At the moment, the balance is too much in favour of the attacking sides, and the defensive A.I needs to improve dramatically. Things such as clearing your lines, or bringing down a player to stop a counter attack are both aspects that need to be worked on, along with adapting to a change in formation. A side playing four up front to get a late equaliser would be launching balls up at every possible opportunity, not passing it among the defenders wasting time.
Probably the most talked about point on the e-mails I have received is regarding the Goalkeepers. Some gamers have suggested Konami takes a gamble and allows players to take control of the stoppers themselves. Anyone who has played in goal on the fixed camera option will agree that this may make scores more unrealistic, and it is probably not the way to go. The key, I personally feel would be more animations for the goalies, as to increase the number of saves they can make. Even Petr Cech makes mistakes in real life, be it missing the cross as he did vs. Arsenal or letting one through his body like against Aston Villa. Of course, this is frustrating when playing a game, but goalies who hold everything would be even more frustrating an unrealistic, anyone who has played the ISS series with 5 star GK will agree with that. Yes, they do spill a lot, but watch any side under pressure and you will see the keepers parry a lot as well. The problems may be more to do with the defenders reaction speeds as opposed to the keepers handling. One point that defiantly should be addressed is the ability to throw the ball out and launch a quick attack, as opposed to waiting and only being able to throw or roll the ball to a set player. This could be implemented in the same was as a free kick, issuing a power bar and opting for rolling it with the pass button, or throwing it with the through ball button.
A lot of people have requested more skill or trick moves, which again could be seen as a bad thing. Many of the trick moves on PES could be used in a much more realistic manor, as opposed to bringing new ones in. The scissors step overs are not anywhere near effective enough, and a player like Ronaldo should be able to wrong foot a defender using them. A lot of the time, these skills are wasted and don’t add any benefit other than showing off. In similar way to the fake shot, the scissors could bring up a power bar before quickly allowing you to slip away. The new tricks that have been brought in on both PES6 and 2008 have all been implemented very well, so maybe Seabass and co. will take this on board, giving the older tricks such as the scissors, spin and flick up tricks a bit of an overhaul.
The final game play point I would like to raise is regarding set pieces. These have improved already since the last generation, with the option to send the big men up from the back. The option of quick free kicks and having two players stand over the ball are also features that, with a little tweaking, could be very usable. The real point that has been raised is about the positions players take up in the box, and how the runs they make are not anywhere near as well timed, as they should be. Some suggestions include the option of selecting one of 4 or 5 different preset running patterns before each corner or free kick, with the defending team being able to do the same. Another option is to give a cursor in the centre of the screen, using the right analogue stick to control the players in the middle, with the left to control the whip or spin on the kick itself. My own personal favourite would be the option to spend time on the training ground devising your own runs an movements, using a click and move feature, for it to be saved and used in your matches. Whether any of these are going to take place is highly unlikely, however, if anyone has any suggestions about potential ways to increase the quality of set piece movement, please get in touch in the usual way.
That is the main points I have received on the Game play front in the e-mails and comments. Any build up on this or possible ideas related to these can be sent to me via e-mail or left as comments at the bottom of this article.
Word On The Street
I took the time over the weekend to download and test the demo of Fifa Street 3 off the Playstation Network. I am presuming it is also available off X Box Live, however, I would not recommend spending the time downloading it. Having purchased the original game in a bit to let my showboating skills alive, I found it to be nothing more than a gloried turn based game, with the ability to do over the top skills all too easy, and the likelihood of getting through the defence in the high end of 80% on every attack. As a novelty, it was a good idea, but as a career based game, it was a waste of time. The latest version is more cartoon like than ever with no attempt to make a realistic game and matrix like movements an occurrence every 30 seconds. Of course this is for a target audience, but I am just trying to work out who this audience would be. Once again, it seems EA are churning out mindless sequels to games in an attempt to make as much cash as possible, a policy Konami would be ill advised to follow. Anyone who has played the demo, your opinions would be welcomed during the comments at the bottom of Interfering With Play.
Bow Down To The King
Just wanted to also quick address the talking point of the last few weeks in English football, the Newcastle United syndrome. Most Newcastle fans were delighted with the return of Kevin Keegan, and the fact that he will make them an attractive football club once again. I live in the West Midlands, and am therefore in no position to comment on what Newcastle life is like, but from the outside, it seems that they are a footballing area that is living in dream land. The definition of a big club is no longer what you have won in the 1970’s or how many cups you have, it is how big your bank balance is, how many world class players are on your books and how you perform week in week out in your domestic league. Maybe Sam Allardyce was the wrong man to take charge of Newcastle United, but it wasn’t because Big Sam is a bad manager. The fact remains that any successful club needs to take time and build a team. Both Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger have spent a great deal of time at their respective clubs, installing a mind set within their players and a culture among their staff. Newcastle have chopped and changed managers, players and tactics far to often over the past 10 years to even be spoken in the same breath as they two sides, who along with Chelsea, are the three dominant sides in the English League. So realising the Newcastle are no longer a top side, they must look to the second tier of the English top flight for a place to fit in. Everton, Liverpool and Portsmouth all are sides who have accomplished managers who have been given the backing of their respective boards for a number of seasons and a fan base who all appreciate the work their side are doing, even if it doesn’t always result in silver wear. Aston Villa and Manchester City also have strong managers, who have merged together big money names with young stars and home grown talent to form good footballing teams.
Newcastle has none of the above at the moment. Kevin Keegan is a manager who is exceptionally passionate and loves his football, but lacks both the mental intensity and tactical knowledge to succeed at the highest level, as he has proved time and time again. He was last in charge at St. James Park when there were two foreign managers in the Premier League, Sir Alex and Joe Kinnear, and scrapped both the Reserve team and Youth Teams at Newcastle. The Newcastle fans are just like everyone else, they are passionate about their local team, and want the best from their players. You try going to places like Millwall or Cardiff and saying they don’t support their club enough. The fact is, since Keegan has been at Newcastle, the club has maintained a top flight status, had a couple of decent cup runs and has hosted a few top matches featuring the worlds best players. To be honest, unless the owner Mike Ashley gives Keegan £200 Million to buy players, the best that Newcastle can hope for in the next few years is a UEFA Cup spot. Any football fans views would be greatly appreciated.
That’s your lot for this week. Comments are welcomed at the bottom of the page about anything you have read on here, in particular regarding the Letter to Seabass. You can also e-mail me directly; danbolas@hotmail.com is the place to direct your comments to. Thanks to the hundreds of people that have been in contact so far, obviously far to many to reply to you all individually, but your support is very much appreciated and I assure you I read and make notes on every single e-mail before writing Interfering With Play
Thanks for Reading
Thanks alot for taking your time for “Interfering With Play” it is much appreciated and obviously it seems like its usually well thought out and it must take you some time.
on comment on this weeks IWP
You made some very valid points about the keepers and the defenders reactions to spills
I played the Demo of Fifa street 3 and its a waste of time
Amazing piece Dan. Something that frustrates me in the games is when you play online, and tow people playing each other can chose not only the same team (fair enough) but even the same bloody kit. This is totally annoying and im sure this is easily sorted.
Some good points covered. Totally agree with tricks, special moves etc. Even if all the problems with pes were sorted for the next game there is still one thing that would stop me buying it. Anyone else thinks they should re-install the camera widescreen angle 1-9 option? They’ve had it since pes2 I think and I hear pes2008 is without it. It was the final reason for me NOT to purchase a ps3 and pes2008 this year.
p.s. as if there wasn’t a million other reasons ;)
great article.
just a quick note i downloaded fifa street demo on xbox and i quite enjoyed it, i have never played the games before but it seemed quite fun and a very different approach to football games, i would want to know more about game modes and ‘longativity’ before purchasing though.
I used to own NBA street on ps2 and enjoyed that.
I agree with many of your points and having owned PES since release day I am only just recently starting to play it regurlarly. I have owned all versions since PES 1 on ps2 and more often than not the game discs would just live in my console and i played little else but this version was different.
I was very disappointed with it at first, especially online mode but i feel online has improved quite a lot and i am just beginning to generally ‘get-in’ to the whole game more now.
Thanks again
Very interesting read and I agree with many of the points raised.
On a different note, I dl’d Fifa Street on the 360 too. Don’t really no what to make of it at the moment. From a serious football game players view I found it ridiculous and pointless. Then after accepting it for what it was, a pick up and play arcade kick about, I started to like it. Like Nathan I had the NBA street series and it manages to achieve some of the same gameplay, but football and basketball are totally different games and it Fifa Street is missing some key elements to give off that fun arcade experience.
Good points, as always!
I missed just one thing: The fact that the pace was upped so it feels more arcade-like. PES has always been for ‘real’ football-fans if I may say so, who prefer a more simulation kind of game instead of a ‘pick-and-play’ style game. PES5 had a great pace, very realistic, now it seems to be moving away from the simulation type of game, which is in my opinion the wrong direction. It’s unbelievable that I played 1 game with my Roma (10 minutes) against Milan and finished the game 7-7!!! It’s nice to have some higher scoring games, but PES-fans generally prefer the ‘realistic’ 1 or 2 goals games with once in a while a higher scoring game, but 7-7 is out of any proportions…..
IOW: Pace down please in PES2009 for a more realistic simulation feel.
Magic Roma, i very rarely write on my own article but that is a spot on point. It will definatly be included in the final article and is something i will bring up in next weeks IWP aswell!
About the fifa street demo, it is a street game made by EA BIG. Meaning that the game is not meant to be realistic. If you are looking to just have fun and just kick the ball around and be entertained, then i think it actually is a good game. Of course i would prefer the manager mode in fifa or the master league in winning eleven over it, but then again if someone that doesn’t know much about the sport wanted to play a soccer game, playing fifa street would be better then explaining how to play winning eleven since there are way too many things you can do in pes.
I imported the game here in the States and since WE6 International first came here I’ve never touched another footy game because of the freedom and unpredictability. For some reason this time around, the flow seems more rigid and scripted when the CPU has the ball, the CPU scores on every set peice within 25 yards, the only real difference between players is pace and response times I haven’t noticed much else. I loved this series because I used to have to work for every goal and work to defend the CPU from scoring. But scoring is pretty simple and well you can stop a scripted flow of play form the CPU esepcially a set peice. Just very dissappointed.
I meant you can’t stop a scripted flow of play
Nothing new to add here that other comments haven’t covered, but I just reiterate the other comments by saying a great article.
HI, ON PS3 PRO EVO, WHEN YOU HOLD L1 YOU GET SOME PHRASES TO SAY TO OTHERS, MORE RECENTLY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR OWN PHRASES, HOW DO YOU GET THEM? ANYONE KNOW???
I think that the game play in the new pro evo is shockin wen u first start using it i found it seems to get better the more you play it i have also got fifa 08 i would like to see a career in the game as a footballer but with more options available in the game such as you can get sold to other team the better ratings the better the team. I would like the idea of the game to be a bit harder because it seems that with about to passes you are at an apponents goal. Also it wood be gid if it was a slight bit simpler to score free kicks.
Can I ask, with the letter that you are putting together, how exactly are you going to give it to Seabass?? Is it being hand delivered to him or being spelt out in the form of an interview? My reason for asking is that I am struggling to see the point of it if you are just going to post it.
Sorry for sounding negative – It’d be great if it worked!
Hey just like to say i totally disagree with your comments on Newcastle United, As i have owned a season ticket for Newcastle for the past 6 year my opinion may be one sided although to say we are not a BIG club is just ridiculous when you look at the fact that we have a 52 000 seater stadium which we basically fill every week, we also take the full alocation to away games on a regular basis and i would love for you too tell me what premiership teams other than, man u, chelsea, liverpool and Arsenal have a bigger fan base than us, because there are none! WE ARE A SLEEPING GIANT!
Great Article,
Few Points:
1. The Movement needs to be more fluent i.e. no more 45′ degrees, a full 360′ degree movement when running, would be more realistic. Again on your point on dribbling, I look forward to the new additions off tricks but like you said they are more for show, and rarely do any damage to the opposing team. They need to address how they could cause the tricks (i.e. Ronaldo’s step overs).
2. Goalkeepers, like you said should spill, drop more but also increase there skill too as they are really poor in game, they should be a lot harder to beat, their positional play should be Along with some more animations (like you said). Also you should, if you want to, be able to tackle the GK, I know there isn’t much point, but the option should be there. Also very good point on the throwing aspects to that sounds awesome, and would add to the game.
3. Corners, Totally agree 100% what you said.
**Also Fifa Street is ****, you should have already known this, seeing as it is a Fifa game? :P
The main problem I have is offline lag, and slow frame rate when viewing replays (at close up camera, the zoomed out camera is actually smooth). Apart from that I’m happy with the game. I knew Konami would stuff up something, which is why I’m not surprised. It just happened to be online mode. Next years release will no doubt stuff up on something extremely obvious. Maybe they’ll forget to have a one player option!
As for people having 7-7 games, you really need to learn how to defend. I recently have had about six games with my brother. Of those two were 0-0 and went to pens, only one was a high scoring game (4-1, and 3 goals were conceded in injury time) and the remaining games were two 1-0s and a 2-1.
You need to sort your defence out!
i’m fine with most aspects of the football in PES2008 on the ps3. the main things that could be improved in my opinion are player statistics.
I would like to see detailed player statistics including how many games started, sub appearances, goals total in relation to previous seasons and there are plenty more things that could be included. these things can be improved on and will make the master league more detailed and interesting.
All in relation to your comment that newcastle utd are a sleeping giant is just ****ing bollocks. Im sorry but you idiot newcastle fans need to get rid. When your so called Toon army came to white hart lane you idiots did not get your full allocation.
Also to the wannabe newcastle utd fan, it makes people laugh how you think your a bog club, your ****e. Keegan is going to fail and getting dennis wise as director of football shows that newcastle are a small club. Fan allocation is not a deciding factor on how big the club is. Newcastle fans are from newcastle, not from around the globe. So my friend i find it a disgrace that yuo think your a sleeping giant. Pompey are a bigger club than that ****e newcastle.
IDIOT
Finally there is a patch that completely fixes the lag in offline games. I have not tried it online as yet but hopefully those problems will be fixed as well.
As for Dennis Wise joining Newcastle.
As a Leeds fan I was sad to see him leave, however results have not been the same since Poyet left and maybe he was the real reason for the successful start to the season.
I cannot see what role he will perform for the toon, but Keegan seemed as suprised as anyone regarding the move.
The main reason I have stopped playing PES recently is more down to the unfair advantages the CPU gives itself, notable in the master league. This cheating, which seems to have become more notable since PES6, has carried over to PES08. Some games you just dont have control over your players. If that could be sorted out, PES wouldnt leave my PS3. (even with all the other flaws)
Newcastle, apart from a decent manager, desperately need defenders. Top teams are built from the back. Even teams like Man U and Arsenal have always been solid defensively.