Interfering With Play 05/08/08
Posted by Dan Bolas in Interfering With Play on Tue 05 Aug
Welcome to this week’s Interfering With Play. In an exceptionally busy week on a personal level, the news regarding PES2009 is starting to shows signs of gathering pace. Very little of official origin has been released, but one point, the fact that Lionel Messi will be ‘the face’ of Pro Evolution Soccer 2009 is definitely a positive step. How this will influence the end product from anything other than a marketing point of view, however, remains to be seen. Also, this week saw the beginning of the IWP League, with the first few matches having already taken place. As with anything of this nature, especially when playing online, kinks need to be ironed out and problems need to be resolved, but so far, all seems to be running reasonably well. Hopefully this will make way for a larger, lag free league on PES2009. Anyways, on with the week’s column.
That Don’t Impress Me Much
Firstly, I hate being cynical. I feel in this country, and when it comes to anything people actually care about, be it football, music or gaming, there is always a great temptation to expect the worse, and no more so that with Pro Evolution Soccer. The game could be awesome, and there will still be people moaning about it, just like people moaned that PES6 was not as good as PES5, and so on. The usual suspects have commented on the recent ‘exclusive video’ of PES2009 and many of you may also have seen the new screenshots rolling around the web, be they official or just from PES2008. From my point of view, having looked at all the information, the screenshots and the videos, graphically I am less than impressed. Whilst PES2008 brought slightly smoother graphics on the next generation consoles, the rendering techniques seem to be no different. The lighting seems to be exactly the same, and the player models and strips look virtually identical. The video footage, whilst giving a different feel to PES, looks very similar and bar a new trick, seems to play in a very similar manor to the previous years offering.
I hate to be cynical because it’s so little to go upon. One tiny trailer video and a great deal of gossip and hearsay is not enough to base a valid opinion, but I do get the feeling of we’ve been here before. In fact, this time 12 months ago, more information was available about the then new title ‘PES2008’, and it seemed to ring many peoples alarm bells. Here, with have very little confirmed information with the title measly 3 months away, and those same bells can be heard all over the web. I am not looking for responses regarding Fifa or Seabass, I am simply looking for the answer to the question, what does PES have to do in order to get us excited anymore? Is it even possible for us to get excited about a PES game, with expectation too great? Too many gamers out there are now looking for the worse, and it is up to the Konami team to deliver, and bring back a buzz about their flagship sports title.
Time To Kill
Unsurprisingly, the PESGaming.com community was pretty united on the length of time games are played when playing PES. The 10 minute per half match seems to give gamers a good experience of having to perform from the first minute, but allowing the game to swing back and forward in a realistic manor. Like myself, many of you also prefer the 15-minute per half game mode when playing against friends, which allows the opportunity for the game to be influenced by substitutions and tactical changes in a different way. What I find interesting, and definitely something that Konami and Seabass should be looking at is the lack of interest in a 5 minute per half match. Anyone who has played one, and probably will have only done so on the demo of PES, will realise these games are too short to really get into any kind of rhythm, and as a result feel more like a quick game in the arcade as opposed to a football game on a home console. The lack of interest in this game mode, coupled with the fury at the increasing game speeds that seem to occur year in year out, should be telling Konami that PES fans want a more simulated, more realistic gaming experience, similar to that of a real football match, and not a cheap thrill fest that games like Virtua Striker and ISS offered in the early years of this century. Of course, there exception to the rule is that one or two gamers would prefer to play these quick game modes, and the option of a 5 minute per half game and even a speed metre (included on previous PES) could be brought in to cater for these gamers needs. But the bulk of gamers want to rely on tactics and football, not races and speed, in order to be successful.
Still Going Strong
Those that read Interfering With Play on a regular basis, or those of you that I have spoke to personally, will be well aware I have a great deal of games in my collection. Pondering upon the purchase of Soul Calibur IV, and waiting for payday before picking up The Bourne Conspiracy and Haze in bargain deals, my game collection is kissing 30 titles, all official and many of which that have experienced a healthy playtime. After completing the excellent franchise mode of NBA 2K7, I will occasionally go back for the odd game, but as a general feeling, winning that game mode finished the game for me. The same for games like Stuntman and Motorstorm, the games are still incredibly fun to play, but I will not be playing them anywhere near as regularly as when I was completing them. So it is scary that I still play with the same passion and same intensity for my original Master League team. I have won it all, and having started with the ‘fake’ players, I have replaced Jaric, Dodo and co. with a team of young and hungry superstars that are taking the world by storm. I play on the top difficulty; win pretty much every week, but the mode still keeps on drawing me back for more. Yes the Master League is dated, and an overhaul in both the graphics and menus would be welcomed, but as a game mode, it is exceptionally hard to fault.
Girls, Girls, Girls
Slightly strange point, but something that has not been addressed in the previous issues of IWP, or indeed anywhere on the website in the past. As many of you would expect, the majority of PES gamers are male, seeing as football is a predominantly male sport still, especially in Europe. Here, I am opening the floor to any females to get in touch with IWP, to show that there is an interest in Pre Evolution Soccer from both genders. I have personally spoken to one or two girls that love the game, but I feel these are the exception and not the rule. Any females please leave your comments at the bottom of this article, outlining your views on the previous PES. After all, this site is 100% equal opportunity.
Mature Like Cheddar
Over the next month or so, as is tradition with any game based site, the number of visitors will rise greatly, as interest in PES shoots up. It is at this stage where the people who have shown no interest in PESGaming.com start giving their two cents worth, f’ing and blinding at anyone who refuses to agree with exactly what that their point of view is. It is with great credit that I focus on the regular contributors to this column, who always discuss their topics in well thought out, structured and mature manor, even if they differ from others out there. Of course, this is what many people would expect, but it seems those that don’t are the ones that’s constantly post abusive and downright rubbish on forums all over the web. Over the next few months, I only hope this quality of posting continues, as it makes for much better discussions and an environment where the best points are heard!
That’s your lot for this weeks Interfering With Play. Next week is a landmark issue, as it is both the 1-year birthday and 50th instalment of this column. More on that will be make next week, but it will feature some of the best posts and information from the past 12 months of PESGaming.com, along with a hall of fame feature for the best contributors over the past year. Regulars will not want to miss it! danbolas@hotmail.com is that place that you can reach me, be it about the IWP League, sending a potential logo for Interfering With Play (see last week’s column) or if you have something you simply wish to get off your chest. Alternatively, you can send a public comment, by clicking on the red responses button below.
Thanks for Reading
I think you may be confusing yourself with the game times. One half of 5 minutes equates into a 10 minute game. 10-min games are easily the most played format from my observations over the past 6 or 7 years.
Great post Dan, yeah, i have always been curious about how mane girls like PES, since all of my girlfriends seem to hate the fact that i play video games, lol.
Regarding PES 2009, i think we cant’ say anything right now about how the game will look and play, we really have nothing, we should wait for a in-gameplay video of somebody who has played the game, until then, we will have to wait for Leipzig for the official Konami release, and then make a judgement, good or bad, but not based on 4 screenshots and a mini video.
Great IWP.
I too am sceptical about PES09, but, I still think that what rumour there is, is not too bad.
I posted a little while ago that the first news (from the guy who worked on the game) was just dull and uninspiring and then I played PES2008.
If 09 does play “how 08 should have”, then I think, I’ll be pretty pleased with that. PES2008 is not as bad as we may think. As you said, what game do you still play after almost a year? I have a pretty robust game collection myself and I can tell you, PES has me coming back for more like no other game in my collection. I don’t know if this is just the combination of a love of football and gaming, but, I’m not sure I care.
The lack of a full edit mode in the current gen machines has always been my major issue with PES. As far as the rumour mill goes, it would appear that a full edit mode is back and I for one am now starting to get excited again.
Oh, by the way…….. I’m a girl!
Well, only when the wife’s out!
Assache, you big girls blouse ;-)
But seriously, it’s true that we can’t judge until ‘real’ news comes out…Still, hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst…
Personally I like to play the 15min time mode, it seems to fit game fine, and in fact I totally agree with you on the point that making the game slower would be a good way to make it more realistic, which would be a great idea. Anyway, I’m a big fan of Master League and that’s the only mode I pretty much play, I always play it on the highest difficulty level, picking one of the weakest teams because I love the challange. What pissis me off is that after 2 of 3 seasons I can basically buy any star player I want. I try to buy players from non existing teams and never buy star players from existing master league teams so I can get as much challange as I can. The transfer menu is horrible, whenever I try to sell my player I never get a offer that could be adequate to my player performance ( meaning higher than whats already made up) even if the given player excels and become the top league scorer. Next, what sucks about the statistic is that you cant even see what’s going on in others leagues at the same time, whose the top scorer etc. I think, after playing my 4th season I had all the trophies, almost 200.000 transfer points, winning with FC Barcelona like 6:1 and I was practically done with the game.
There is many more things that I could write about , but in general all I would like to see in PES 09 is major Master League improvements ( more teams, leagues … that’s a must ). If PES 2009 would really have the UEFA CHAMPIONS license with all the teams and leagues, with UFEA CHAMPIONS music this really would be a dream come true. I would never even look at fifa again. But I know it’s to beautiful to be true
I find it hard to be too pessimistic, myself. Look at PES 2008. It almost stagnated compared with PES 6 (lots of people think it even went backwards) and yet it’s still an extremely playable game that nearly all of us come back to again and again. I think that since the first few PES titles, progress has become incremental – a nip here, a tuck there, but the fact is that it’s still got its major selling point: the gameplay. Despite PES 2008 hardly being one giant leap for mankind, FIFA 08 didn’t come close (my FIFA-playing friends say the pace is glacial). It also sounds like our beloved PES editing is returning, which can only be good news! And I think the reason that PES doesn’t change radically from title to title now is thus: the game is already fantastic, and the game only needs some tweaks (OK, quite a lot of tweaks in the case of last year’s offering) to keep it fresh and entertaining. In short, I trust Konami to come outin October with another really good football game.
I think some things they need to look into are making the pitch a bit bigger, perhaps 15% overall or so, slowing the game up just a bit, improving the long ball with a touch more curve on crosses from the better skilled players.
Also a 12 minute can option i think would go well if they were to increase pitch size and slow the game up a touch. 12 min games = two halves of 6 mins each, and if extra time halves are needed then there 3 mins each, seems to work out faily well i think.
Ohh yeh and defending needs to improve a decent bit.
Dan, great artical mate……..
I have to agree, how can any judgement be made on a few minutes video.
I have not got a large a collection as you Dan on my PS3, but i always play COD4, GTA, but always will end up getting the pro evo out for a online game. Don’t know what it is but even with the rubbish, trashy lag, online mode is still great fun, especially when there are 3 bars showing (usually indicates a slighty less lag game).
Im really pinning my hopes that the new version will be great, yet it is just that a hope. One thing for sure is when i originally bought the game oct last year, i was really disappointed just like you guys, when they bought updates out to sort the lag issues and offline issues out, the game did change slightly for the better. Now we are in August 08, and im still playing the game the most, and i feel paying £39.99 for a constant use of a game, is still value for money.
Lets hope guys the new game in much improved….
Roguless: I am a ten minute player, but, 12 sounds perfect.
This next version is an important one for the franchise. This is the second version on the new generation consoles, and 08, whilst still a good version, has a few areas where there is plenty of room for improvement. There is a feeling that this version should be the one where the series should really start to stretch its legs.
Incidentally, I bought both Fifa08 and PES08 when they came out, although Fifa was visually impressive I have to say that I think PES is still the smarter of the two games, especially in the off the ball movement and the in depth tactics editing.
However, the editing in PES 08 leaves a lot to be desired, some of the replays are unwatchable and the online play is so bad you wonder why they bothered to include it, its that bad, especially when compared to FIFA08’s seamless online experience – credit where credit is due. They must get this right in the next version.
Btw, I use the 5-minute game extensively but only to open all the players etc by winning all the trophies when I first get the game. And this reminds me, where is the PES Shop – this system was better overall I think. I like how FIFA does this aspect, although in FIFA things cost too much, I mean, 5000 points just for a ball? Come on!
Anyway, I really hope this next version of PES reinvigorates and advances the series. Its just like before the football season begins – I choose to be optimistic.
Great IWP Dan.
I’ve never posted a reply to one of these, but you do make some great points every week.
I have to admit i play with the 10 minute mode, it isn’t too long, but isn’t too short, it allows you to have a decent game, and get some really entertaining games, which as almost everyone will agree, is the whole point of playing PES, and it is why we play it.
The one problem i’ve had with the curent gen PES’s of recent years is that there was no giant leap forward. Whilst FIFA 07 and 08 are far from perfect games, they were a massive (and i mean MASSIVE) improvement from the last gen games (05 and 06 especially). I don’t think i have seen this kind of improvement from PES. Now, i don’t know why this is, but it has always bugged me, and is why i have lost some of my love for the game which got me into gaming in the first place.
We all know Konami could be classed as “lazy”, but i think that it is down right disrespectful that they haven’t given the fans what they deserve for supporting them through all the years. And whilst some may argue that there isn’t much that needs improving, i think we all know deep down that the gameplay can be improved to make it more realistic. And whilst FIFA may have its faults (e.g. lack of responsiveness and not being able to tackle as easily as PES to name a couple) i find that it is FIFA that i keep going back to at the moment. I think this may well be because of the quality of the career mode (which PES could learn a hell of a lot of lessons from) and dare i say it, the fact that they have the licenses (and my beloved Huddersfield Town!!) but i’m enjoying it, and to be honest, i really can’t wait untill FIFA 09!!
I wil certinly still buy PES, but it may not be the automatic choice it always has been.
As for the rumours, only time will tell…
All this negative talk about PES 2009 isn’t helping but I cant say I blame people, the trailer looks shocking, the zoom in footage would suggest virtually no graphical upgrade which is gonna be a killer in my book, a great football sim needs great gameplay and graphics, not just one, it needs both, with the usual depth adding features of course….
…and we dont need to wait for the games release to confirm wether this game will stink or not, the games conference in Leipzig takes place on the 20-24th of August, were certain to see some gameplay footage round those dates and then we’ll know if the series has been given a “complete overhaul” as Seabass stated. If I see the same PS2 level graphics and clunky looking player animation I will not waste my money on it this year, last year I bought PES for the PS3 and traded it in after 3 days with it, it was a huge let down.
FIFA (although not as good as PES was at its peak) was a cracking little buy, packed with challenges and extra features, so much effort went into that game it has gathered FIFA 08 a lot of respect from gamers and with 09 looking like its added even more positive improvements the final nails may be hammered in the Konami coffin unless they produce a quality game.
I used to play the 5 minutes-per-half games -but- after playing 10 minutes-per-half I made up my mind that 20 minutes make a better experience.
And considering Football is 90 minutes long.. well, 10 minutes per game is too short to experience what Football is about. I prefer quality -to- quantity.
Anyways, I think the Defensive Play haves to drastically improve.. it could be much better -and- there must be a Balance between Attackers and Defenders. They could include little things to make significant differences.
For example instead of just having 4 Tactical Options during Gameplay (2 for Attacking, and 2 for Defending) -it- would be better if we had 4 Defensive Tactics when Defending (without ball possession) -and- 4 Attacking Tactics when having possession of the ball.
This way when Defensing, we could have in-game-tactics that we didn’t had before, such as; Specifically assigning the Wingers to track back in one Defensive Play, or having all the Forwards track back in one Particular Situation, etc, etc..
The Bottom Line, is that with a similar system we’d have 8 in-game-tactics instead of just 4 in-game-tactics. And this can only improve the Gameplay.
Another thing that will be a MUST in the years to come -will- be having the option of creating (fully customizing) your own Playing System (Tactical scheme); a Tactical System, Defensive System, Counter Attacking System, Long Ball Play, etc, etc..
Fully deciding how you want your Attacking Mids and Defensive Mids to move through out a game, to decide if you want your team to revolve around ONE player -or- if you want another type of system that is less dependable on only ONE player, etc, etc..
This is something we have never had before, we have never had the option of creating a Tactical Scheme to suit our players. And again, there is (still) NO such thing as Tactical Stats.
So basically, it would be ridiculous to have “Custom Team Tactics” -without- having “Tactical Stats” to determine what Type of players we have. I think that’s a huge flaw in current Football Sims -because- Tactical Abilities are just as important as Technical Abilities.
And even more important, Tactical Abilities -determine- the way a team plays their Football. For example take the 1994 World Cup; Italy played with a 4-4-2 Formation, Brazil also played with a 4-4-2.
But Brazil and Italy where complete opposites, Italy played a defensive game -and- Brazil played in Typical South American fashion.. and bare in mind that they played with the same exact Formation.
So why where they so different?? Because they had Different Types of Tactical Abilities, the Brazilians had better Attacking Awareness -while- on the other hand the Italians had better Defensive Awareness.
And this gave way to their Style of play -because- logically they will play to their strengths.. So the Italians played with a Defensive 4-4-2, and the Brazilians played an Attacking 4-4-2.
And this is also the reason to why the English National Team play the way they play. They try to keep the game at a high pace, and they know how to play Long Ball Tactics effectively. In other words, they have their own Tactics -to- compensate for their lack of Tactical Skills.
Tactical Abilities pretty much determine the Style of Football a Team plays -and- that is essential in Football.
This is a BASIC aspect of Football that still hasn’t been effectively implemented into a Football Sim -as- I can take (at least in PES6) ANY Team and play ANY Style of Football Effectively. That’s a huge flaw that should be sorted out.
So in my opinion Tactical Stats will be a must in the years to come, New Stats to determine a players off-the-ball movement in each Position and Situation.
With that said, I hope PES09 turns out to be as enjoyable and addictive as PES6. And I hope to see improved Defensive Play and New Stats sooner rather than later.
Air Bag – Your comment is rubbish. You traded in your PES and got FIFA (a cracking buy). Think about what you just said, you traded in your PES (your choice, know one cares), but you did not wait for the upgrades that the makers sent to improve the game a little. Ive seen your comments on PESFAN, and everyone there agrees your a negative person, who only loves FIFA. TAKE YOUR SUNGLASSES OFF, PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES PES.
Hey retard it’s not 10mins a half. What is wrong with you? Do you actually play this game or what? FIFA uses time in halves – i think you are a joke.
Hey Amateur, interesting comments but a little over the top possibly. When i play online against people I spend ages waiting for them to tweak their players positions, attackingness etc whilst I very often just leave it on the defaults and still win quite a lot of the time. Sure I probably could do better if I tweaked stuff too but I’m not sure it needs to go that deep.
Also with all the talk about changing the speeds of the game – Has noone else noticed that the speed is often determined by the TV you are playing it on!?!
If you don’t believe me, try it on three or four different TVs. Not only will the speed be different but the camera angle and graphics vary a great deal too. For instance on my 19inch Hi Def TV the picth is lush and I have quite an overhead view (in Wide angle), whereas on a 32 Hi def TV (exactly the same game settings) the pitch is a completely different grain, the view is lowered and the speed is slowed down.
I recently played PES2 and PES3 the other day and was surprised to find that they actually play quicker than PES08 too so, yes although the speed may have changed from PES6 we have played a quicker version in the past.
Well, I think it might have been over the Top back in the PS2 -but- not anymore. With Next Gen Consoles (PS3, 360) it’s about time we get to see at least 5 Different (Individual) Stats to determine a player’s off-the-ball Movement.
That is a must, I have no doubt this Stats will eventually make it into the game. Just some 5 Stats such as; Defensive Awareness, Attacking Awareness, Goal Area Awareness, Defensive Midfielder Awareness, and Tactical Awareness.
Stats to determine a player’s positioning in every Position and Situation. For example with this 5 Stats it would be possible to establish Differences between Different Players, Different Teams -and- Different Leagues; the Spanish La Liga, English Premier League, and the Italian Serie A.
Some people might not notice the Differences, but they have them; The Spanish la Liga is mostly about the compact game of short passing, and attacking -the- Italian Serie A is the most Tactical and Defensive of the Leagues -and- the English Premier League is the least Tactical, but most physically demanding League.
This Differences shouldn’t be defined by mere Tweaks, they should be defined by each player’s Tactical Stats. For example, something clearly noticeable about La Liga and the EPL -is- that in La Liga Defenders defend closer to the Penalty Area, it’s rare to see a striker leaving Center Backs for dead in a position where the Defensive Midfielder should be.
On the other hand, in the EPL I have seen it countless of times; Thierry Henry running with the ball, and suddenly he is all alone all the way from Midfield. What happened?? Most of the Defenders where left for dead in an Advanced Position -in- a position that is more suited for a Defensive Midfielder.
This is why Fernando Torrez scored so many Goals in his 1st season in the EPL. He never scored as many Goals in all his seasons with Atletico Madrid -and- in his own words “Defenders in England are Dodgy”.
This is also why Thierry Henry is struggling in the Spanish La Liga -because- in La Liga he isn’t allowed much space, he doesn’t haves the same huge gaps to exploit -and- he cannot do what he did for most of his time in England -wich- was simply leaving Defenders for dead in Advanced Positions.
You cannot do that neither in La Liga or Serie A -and- you cannot do it simply because Defenders (in Spain and Italy) position themselves way back in the Goal Area, you cannot leave them for dead in the Midfield -and- because they position themselves in such deep positions, once you get past them on speed, you don’t have any more space to do anything.
This is what usually happens to Thierry Henry in Spain, he plays more or less in the same way he played with Arsenal -and- consequently, he runs with the ball and get past a few Defenders -but- once he gets past them he doesn’t haves any more Space to do anything.. Henry usually ends up in the Corner with no idea of what to do with the ball.
However, Slower and less skillful players have been more successful (than Thierry Henry) in the Spanish La Liga, and the Italian Serie A. Take David Trezeguet for example, this is a striker that would be effective in either La Liga or Serie A -because- he haves excellent Tactical Ability, he is always well positioned to score a Goal.
He (Trezeguet) doesn’t depends (relies) on Pace, nor Dribbling Skills, etc, etc.. He’s just a World Class Poacher. However, by the same logic it could be said that Trezeguet would struggle in the EPL because of his lack of Pace.
And of course, there are always exceptions.. as some players can be effective in any League. Ruud Van Nistelrooy in his prime could’ve been Effective in any League because he had the Goal-Scoring Instinct (Tactical Ability) and the Pace to be successful in any League. The same could be said about Samuel Eto’o, or Henrik Larsson..
So it’s all relative, some players are suited for the Spanish La Liga -others- are more suited for the English Premier League -others- are more suited for the Italian Serie A -and- a few can play in just about ANY League Effectively.
I think Tactical Stats will be a MUST in order to improve -because- Tactical Skills pretty much determine How a Team plays their Football. So I’m certain that Next Gen Football Sims will “eventually” include such Tactical Stats. It’s just a matter of When..
pro rocks it plays at the speed of thought, just like when you play.. fifa is for cattle wagon drivers who can’t turn coz it uses too much of their minimal brain capacity.. may seabass live long and prosper , im hundreds behind the new one he knows what we want..
I really don’t give a crap about how many pixels there is for each dude, most important is that the gameplay (feeling) is the best, that animations feel authentic and have a nice flow.
I’ve been playing soccer games on my old Vic64 that has better gameplay feeling then FIFA has managed to this day!
FIFA = Graphics + (unimportant), Gameplay/Feel – (Important)
PES = Graphics – (unimportant), Gameplay/Feel + (Important)
The thing about PES is they need to update the Master League game. Sure as Dan said no other game makes me come back as ML but this is still a major area for improvement, here I have to give the EA team credit for at least trying to be innovative, it does not always work but sometime the hit it off.
Screw the license also, make the game Editable to the point that those who wants it to be “licensed” can fix it, in fact KONAMI should release an application for them to fix this in an easier way and the best “patches”/Opt files should be found at Konami.com.
Save the license cost to develop the gameplay, the “feel” of the game to stay way in front of FIFA…
A couple of things that also needs to be addressed and that can make me almost wanting to demolish my shiny PES DVD, run it over with a train 500 hundred times, send it to “Do you think it Blends”, etc is the COMPLETE lack of STATS, in 2008 you can’t even see how many goals a player have done in his career.. that is surely embarrassing! How hard is it for a half decent developer to fix it so this is saved and presented from a db?!?!?!?
I agree with someone that had some criticism earlier in comments about the Trade system, I think it needs a total overhaul as well, he/she mentioned selling top performance player for nothing (if you ever get a bid!), that is just the beginning..
Thanks!
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