Interfering With Play – Tuesday 26th May 2009
Posted by Dan Bolas in Interfering With Play on Tue 26 May
IWP League Champion 2009: Ivan Kostic (Internacional)
Welcome to this week’s Interfering With Play. Before we go any further this week, I would like to make a couple of facts perfectly clear. The first, I am passionate about Pro Evolution Soccer, and football gaming in general. I have been coming to this site for many years, and been writing this very column for almost two years now. I think improving this game on a yearly basis is a serious issue, however I still try to have a laugh and joke, and make this as light hearted as possible. I think the majority of the community members are in a similar boat. I would like to follow this up by saying if your one of those people who takes everything to the next level of intensity, then maybe this community isn’t for you and you’d be better off elsewhere, but if like myself and many of the others out there, you enjoy PES and enjoy discussing it, and most importantly can have a laugh and a joke, you are more than welcome at PESGaming.com. Secondly, the log in issue is something many people are pressing towards. I personally have no control over the log in system, and the powers that be are the ones responsible for its implementation. The smart money would see a log in set up occur in late July or early August, to coincide with the busiest time of the PESGaming.com year. I will be very surprised if it doesn’t happen, so my advice would be to sit tight and watch this space. With that said, lets crack on with this week’s Interfering With Play.
“You Gotta Lose Yourself”
The new competition, PRO-ve Your Skills has got a few of you talking on the boards, and has been the subject of a number of e-mails. I am going to quickly use this area to answer a couple of questions that have been raised. Firstly, it is definitely possible to achieve a 9.0 on Pro Evolution Soccer. I am not 100% sure whether this can be achieved on Pro Evolution 2009, but have photographs of PES 2008 and PES 6 of me achieving the score. This challenge is open to any version of PES, on any console and therefore if you’re struggling to achieve the goal on PES 2009, maybe take a step back a year or two and bring in an older version.
The second point regards who is the champion, and how winning overall actually works. Basically, whoever wins week one becomes the champion, and it is there job to set a new challenge. That challenge will become available to the public on the following Sunday, and kind of like n eBay auction, the champion will remain so until someone beats his or her challenge, So for example, someone who gets a 9.0 might set their next challenge of get 100% of your shots on target with your team. Therefore, unless someone does this, they will remain champion for the following weeks. If someone does, the champion title changes hand, and the new champion must set a task for everyone, including the old champion to beat. There will be a couple of twists and turns on the way, so as soon as someone beats the challenge posted below, and e-mails an image of the screenshot proving it, the game truly begins.
Finally, I am well aware the average ratings are awful on Pro Evolution Soccer. It is something that will be addressed in a future IWP, but whilst it is present within a challenge situation, I am going to keep tight lipped and let you guys get on with it. Send your photos to the usual e-mail address and remember, it is first come, first champ!
“Get This Party Started”
Over the bank holiday weekend, I got a few of my mates round and we fired up the European Championship on PES 2009, playing fix. Fix is basically the same as Become A Legend, but instead you take the role of one player within a team, as opposed to your individual created character. Incredibly, some people don’t realise you have been able to do this since PES 3, and it shows that there are certain features included within the game which simply get ignored. Anyway, we took control of the Netherlands, and irrelevant of condition arrows, you had to choose one player to stick with throughout the tournament. I chose Seedorf, and following a 1-0 defeat against a strong France side, we went on to qualify through the group stages. A couple of 7.5s and an 8.0 in rankings earned me player of the Tournament, including a very decent display against Portugal, in which I scored and set up 2 in a tasty 4-3 victory. We ended up having to save and head our separate ways before the final, a game which sees us return against the one side that defeated us in the competition, France.
This right hear is the beauty or Pro Evolution Soccer 2009. One of my mates would consider himself a FIFA convert this year, and another would say he doesn’t play PES as much, but there is no other game that really binds a group together like PES. Yes, you can do the same of the EA Sports title, but in my experience it is never as enjoyable. Games like Call Of Duty and Gears Of War may have ‘mastered’ online multiplayer, but when gathered in a room of mates, with no one sitting off and everyone involved, PES truly still is king. I have mentioned this before, but playing fix with a group of mates is truly the way forward, and if you regularly get together, a league would be perfect! It is fair to say PES has been criticised, and rightfully so, for certain aspects of its multiplayer, but when offline, on one console, I don’t think there is a better game available.
“Don’t Worry, Don’t Panic”
Just a quickie to let all those people involved in the IWP World Cup know I haven’t forgotten about you guys. I have had a pretty hectic week away from the Internet, and therefore e-mailing has kind of taken a back burner. Roll on the iPhone when is can all be done on the go! The competition is currently being set up, and therefore I am open to suggestions for the 16 best national teams on Pro Evolution Soccer 2009. I have a rough list, but anyone wishing to give their two cents will be listened to! Expect the e-mails through later on this week, or over the weekend, outlining the rules, timing and tournament structure.
“Do You Have The Time, To Listen To Me Whine”
Moving on to the final portion of ‘The Big Survey’, this week I am going to take a look at some of the statistics you guys suggested, along with how they may affect the game play. In my opinion, any new statistic added would need to be accompanied by several new animations to compensate for it. I would also like to point out that unlike the personality traits mentioned in last week’s IWP; the statistics I am focussing on would relate to an attribute with a rating between 30 and 99, similar to the long pass accuracy, long pass speed etc. featured in PES.
Firstly, a huge talking point has been that balance takes too much dominance within the game. For example, two players that use balance in different ways would be Drogba and Messi. Lionel changes direction at such speed that his balance seems perfect, whereas Drogba has better balance regarding holding up the ball, irrelevant of his diving tendencies! In my experience, I feel the strength aspect that has been talked about so much should relate to the player’s body type. When creating a player, it is possible to choose his weight and physique, something which surely would have more effect on strength than a simple number. I am not against their being a statistic for strength, but if this was to appear instead of the body type option, I would much rather it was left out. As a general rule within football, the smaller players are weaker and more skilful, whereas taller players are stronger with less pace. Of course there are exceptions, but overall, strength needs to be related to body type as much as it does balance.
As mentioned in the survey, I feel some statistics suffer in translation. I am suggesting for one second that these should be removed, but instead maybe ask the Konami do a better job of translating them in relation to the way the affect the game. Technique is such a broad blanket to have for one stat, and therefore this could maybe split into three of four separate issues such as first touch, changing direction etc. Again, using Drogba as an example, sometimes his second touch is a tackle, because his first touch lets him down, whereas Crouch seems to take the ball like glue. However, both players are affective at what they do, and this technique stat should have a way of reflecting this.
The attack and defence stats also need to be looked into. There are certain attributes that are definitely missing, such as awareness, off the ball movement, interceptions, concentration and positioning that would really help define players within their position. For example, Titus Bramble may have a lower concentration rating, because he tends to make more mistakes, whereas John Terry would have a high rating for positioning because he always seems to be in the right place at the right time. These stats would aid both the human gamers and the AI, and would give a real feel for player’s mentalities as well as just their physical attributes.
Finally, in my opinion adding stats for tricks and skills would be a double edged sword. I feel every player should be able to do a basic range of skills, for example the scissors step over and the shot fake. However, the more advanced the number, the more skills the player has at their disposal; with 95+ being dedicated to the Robinho and Ronaldo group. The problem would lie on where the lines are drawn, and which skills are seen as the most advanced. For example Berbatov loves using the 360 spin, but rarely uses a flip flap, whereas Van Persie is the other way round. Having ratings or special abilities for each individual skill would be, as mentioned on the comments, a chronic waste of memory, so finding a balance would be so very hard.
I would love Konami to come and ask us, the PESGaming.com community what statistics we would like to see within the game, but at the same time know this is a no win situation for them. So many people want different statistics in the game that sooner or later, a line would have to be drawn of the stats would stop affecting the in game action. One of the things that has made the Football Manager series so great is the way stats actually affect the game, and this is something that PES needs to stick to, or risk losing touch altogether.
“You Can Write It In A Letter Babe”
Last point this week, and something which regular member Dave O has brought up to me regarding a letter to Konami outlining some ‘last minute additions’. I may leave this to Double D, if he is interested, but I am more than willing to play the part of the interest is relevant. Like many of you guys, I sometimes forget that these guys are just human beings, and we all think we can do a much better job than they can. Truth is, the Konami team have been making PES for long enough now to hopefully have some idea where the franchise is heading. If they want our ideas, then I will certainly be more than happy to give them out, but I am adopting a Keep The Faith mentality for PES 2010, and hopefully I will end up as happy as ever with the end result.
That’s your lot for this week. Make sure you check on the PRO-ve Your Skills competition, and send your entries to interferingwithplay@hotmail.co.uk if you’re good enough to do so! Feel free to leave your comments on anything you have read here. I am hoping to put the statistics to bed over the next 7 days, and look towards a new ‘Big Survey’ for early next week. Last of all, I have been chatting so someone who runs a very interesting Spanish speaking league on PES. The site is all in Spanish, and based in Mexico, but if it’s something that you would be interested in reading, you can do so on http://www.ligatsuru.net/
Thanks for Reading
By the way, that Mexican group have a link to the most sought after PES 2009 Guide: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=AYCZHB7F
Upon checking the guide,it’s all in Spanish so there you have it.
Dan Bolas – “As a general rule within football, the smaller players are weaker and more skillful, whereas taller players are stronger with less pace”
Dan Bolas – “Of course there are exceptions, but overall, strength needs to be related to body type as much as it does balance”
So, players like Arshavin and Tevez should always be out-muscled by Didier Drogba??
Players like Pele and Diego Armando Maradona should always be out-muscled by taller and heavier players??
That’s too vague and inaccurate… it isn’t rocket science, the game needs a Stats for STRENGTH and another Stat for BALANCE. End of story, problem fixed.
If 2 Individuals have the same exact Strength Stat, in this case Weight and Height will determine who out-muscles whom.
However I think that “strength needs to be related to body type as much as it does balance” is a very vague and inaccurate concept.
George Best – he was a very strong player, very hard to push off-balance… and yet, he was very skinny for a Footballer and he was of average height.
Roy Keane – he didn’t had a particularly powerful physique, but he was most certainly a powerful player with plenty of Strength.
We should have a Stat for Strength -and- Body Type should have Secondary importance.
Although of course, strength needs to be related to body type.
But at the same time, we need a well-defined difference between Balance and Strength -and- body type cannot determine that difference on its own.
Perhaps a Stat for Strength + Body Type.
PPS my above opinion of this site is of course just my opinion. Perhaps the majority of people here like it just the way it is, but I thought I’d say what i thought of the site as a whole from my ‘outside’ perspective..
Post 3 is mine
PRO-ve Your Skills is a good idea but you’ll have to set some guidelines for the ‘champion’ othewrwise they’ll set daft tasks like get a 10.0 ranking with a player or score 15 goals against Man U with Hull etc
They need to fix the control issues in time for PES 2010.
Yea I guessed post 3 was you.
You are the only one I can think of that would write “Diego Armando Maradona”
99.99999% of people would simply put Diego Maradona. But no, you have to go that 1 step further and make it look as if your knowledge is far superior than everyone else don’t you?
I agree with the separate stats for strength and balance though.
Apart from that you are still an arrogant bellend.
Leadleader, Amateur, Aficianardo or whatever!
Did you happen to fail as a professional footballer because you couldn’t pull your self away from your PC for five minutes? Cutting and pasting a boring diatribe of “who cares less?”
What the sunnshinebunnys went wrong in your life child? (23 is a child at my age)
Is your abject failure the reason you feel the need to punish us all?
Can you not move on and find an alternative and more rewarding pastime? Perhaps yoga or something. Failed footballers are generally quite good at golf, yeah, have you thought about golf?
Dan, sort this flower out!
i got a 10 rating on prov evo 08 so its def possible to get a 9!
Did I miss something here? I haven’t been in the comments section or forums for a week or so – so I don’t quite get the intro in this weeks article, about people being too passionate or just casual gamers, who really like the game? And suddenly out of 10 comments people start attacking Amateur…
What’d I miss??
I think I can put the pieces together – but anyone up for at short resumé?
@10 LMAO!!!!
haha sunshinebunnys! that actually made me LOL
i have to agree with passthedutchie too
amateur you have a very exaggerated idea of your own self importance and reading some of your articles in the comments section has only made me dislike you more and more. Unlike most people on this site you have no sense of humour whatsoever! Everyone has ideas for future editions of PES but you seem to think that yours stand above everyone else’s.
WRONG.
On the subject of body balance, yes, body type and height contribute, which I think is accurate, but dribble accuracy also does something very similar but different. So, Messi on Drogba, especially because Drogba’s defensive rating isn’t great, means Messi will be very likely to hold onto the ball, but… In a different way than Drogba would (different animations, which includes the fact that he might nutmeg him or simply be able to turn too fast for him to reacte defensively). That’s my experience with how it works anyway.
Also, I feel like I should clarify my suggestion which Dan was mentioning.
What I’m suggesting is that we put together a list now for Konami of “last minute changes” for PES 2010. I know they are listening to the public right now, so this might actually work. Maybe this would have to go through DD since he has the contact, but I think this could be discussed here or in the forums. Either way, let Dan or DD know, and they can decide what to do.
For example: “Top priority – make sure online is working (obvious one)” but also things they might not realize are important to us, like “high priority – sort out the offsides so that players can tag up and not be offside.”
The key is – “keep it simple stupid.” Just try to provide suggestions that can be summed up in a couple sentences, max. If you need to write an essay in order to explain it, then it doesn’t belong in “last minute suggestions.” Save it for next year’s list.
Also, don’t try to sell your idea by explaining how great you think it is. The quality of your suggestion should speak for itself, so no need to include something like “I think this would be great, because…” or “my Mom says I’m a Genius… etc.”
This list should mostly include suggestions for things which are easy to implement, but are actually more along the lines of suggestions for modes, improvements, options, etc. For example “medium priority – allow us to select the top 3 FK takers for each type of FK, instead of only being able to choose by position.” Also, “VERY high priority – allow music importing on 360,” or “medium priority – allow us to check the aggregate score at any time during a match.” These kinds of things are relatively quick and easy for Konami to add.
Of course, I do totally understand that Konami have a project timeline and already have goals for things to complete in a specific time for this year’s version (I’m a Project Manager myself so I know that it’s not always possible to make last minute additions), but if even one small improvement made it into the game as a result of this I think it would be great for the community as a whole.
Let me know what you think. And if you have any suggestions I’m assuming the easiest way to get them together in one place would be to send them to Dan, or DD. The sooner the better though, since it may very well be too late for this already.
We have found this game lacking as many of you would agree, nonetheless we do enjoy it. In regards to the stats we have also discussed many changes, inclusions and exclusion, but can never seem to agree. In my opinion using a FM base would be a very welcomed addition to the stat system on the PES.
Thanks for mentioning our site, other than the link for the guide, which I’m not sure should be there, we have an excel file with the stats. Some of the players have been deleted as they may not play at our league.
i think the whole DD and amateur debacle needs to end
the site is here to post what people feel and there opinions. So let me add mine i never knew what all this amateur fuss was about people wanting him replacing dd
All the guy does is waffle waffle waffle and i do read some comments but not the ones that would take all day to read
As i mentioned we are all entitled to our comments but i have to agree with the guys here and say come on amateur get over yourself man
P.s great read as always mate : )
Dave O if you want to air your Suggestions on the WENB forums there is a specific Thread for Changes you want Implemented with a Konami rep.
Although Dougie has links to Konami WENB is much more Professional than this site and I think The whole logon debacle not being sorted out Proves my point.
Anyway just Thought you Would Like to know since this site is Pretty dead in every regard of Late.
Great read again Dan.
omg stop posing as Amateur you little lowlife
Look at FRANCO BARESI – the dude had no physique and yet he was the toughest Defender I’ve ever seen, he was very hard to push off-balance because of his great Strength.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3fuVO_jq9A
This is another example highlighting that Body Type is definitely NOT the same thing as Strength.
Another famous example is Rivaldo and Valderrama, both players where extremely skinny and yet very hard to push off-balance.
Other examples include:
George Best
Roy Keane
Carles Puyol
Arshavin
Tevez
Pele
Maradona
It wouldn’t be accurate to only have “Body Type” to determine the strength of an individual.
@ 5beckenbauer, post 9.
Haha, you actually think that I’m arrogant enough to actually say “post 3 is mine” ??
I’d like to express my warm **** YOU and die in hell towards you and many other community members that don’t have anything better to say.
And of course, as always, I’m really not concerned about what this indifferent community thinks about me. Whatever.
So much animosity in this community, it’s incredibly bad.
Have some posts here been deleted?
I’m sure I posted a post @ post 5 then added another PS post straight after. I’m sure I saw my first post @ post 5 but now only my second post is there and it doesn;t make sense by itself! lol!
…Amateur is now flooding WENB with his arrogant drivel. God help us…
@ post 24
Yeah I seen that, it is pretty sad that Amateur keeps reiterating Over the Same stuff he said on Here on WENB.
What is more sad is that he says hes Does not care What people Think on this website, Yet is a coward In his actions by not using the Amateur name. Loser…
@ post 21
Amateur states he does not care about what people write about him on this site, yet he enjoys every time sharing that view with us. He must get so wound up about it, why else does he reveal himself Anonymously?
1 thing for the last minute updates:
dont know if it is mentioned yet, but please make sure the referee allways has another shirt color than the 2 teams playing!
@21, and that’s why we have “Body Balance” so that players who are small but strong can be tough too. Plus, as I’ve said ten times, dribble accuracy makes it so that players like Arshavin are very tough to knock off the ball despite being smaller and having less body balance. The ball simply seems to stick to their feet, and unless they are shoved off by a much stronger player they will be tough to tackle. Are you saying that players like Messi and Tevez are ineffective in PES? Damn, I personally think they are pretty damn good, if not too good!
Honestly, I think you would need an example of a player who is large but weak in order to make the claim that a strength attribute is necessary. Maybe there are a few examples of that… but as far as I can tell the problem (if there is one) is of the ant hill variety anyway.
just wanted to apoligise to amatuer anonymous whagtever your called for my post 17
Im just sick of all the whinging goin on! hurry up pes 2010 so we can get some proper comments going again
unlucky man utd!!!! you just got powned!! 2-0
@post 24
keyboard warrior on the job again
A professional Fifa player (his name isn’t on the schedule, I’ll add if when I find out his name) talked about the frustrations of having to learn different versions of a game. Fifa on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 are very similar, one is a port of the other. But the PC version is substantially different, with different ball physics(!) so playing that is like playing a totally different game. Ball physics and lots of other things also changed between Fifa 08 and Fifa 09, so he said there is really no way to be good at a game with different physics than to practice it endlessly, even if you are already a master of the 08 version. He mentioned one ridiculous tournament where the organizers required the players play the game using a different camera angle for television purposes, but this of course throws out their months (or years) of practice and is clearly unacceptable. Luckily, the later rounds were played using the standard camera angle because the organizers did find a way to broadcast with the camera angle they wanted while the players played using the standard view.
Coward in his actions??
I’m not using the “Amateur” name simply because I don’t consider myself nor want to be part of this community – hence WHY I decided to simply post objective views as Anonymous.
There’s nothing else to it… Cowards in action are you guys who don’t have anything better to say other than “oh, look at Amateur, how sad it is that he says something at all”.
It’s just ridiculous in my opinion, you talk about me posting both in WENB and PESGaming -but- you guys take the time to actually talk about me. It’s pretty weird.
@ Dave O
I’m saying that Messi and Tevez (and Aguero) feel and play IDENTICAL. I’m saying that I don’t feel any difference between Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi, even though they are completely different players in Real-Life.
I’m saying that Riquelme and Scholes feel and play identical. I’m saying that Player Likenesses are almost non-existent in PES09 -and- that Konami has not moved on from the outdated set of Stats and Special Abilities that they have been using for over a Decade.
Just like they have not moved on from the outdated and one-dimensional D-Pad which can only move in 8-Directions, including Passing and Shooting.
At this point I’ve realized that it is basically useless to talk things with you Dave O, simply because you fail to see OBVIOUS points…
I find it hard to believe that you played football for so many years. Because your comments certainly do not reflect that.
Dribbling Accuracy and Balance are not the same thing. Luka Modric is an accurate Dribbler with average Balance.
Balance and Strength are also different things… just like Stationary, Dribbling Slowly, and Dribbling at High Speeds -are- different things.
But whatever, if you don’t want to see proper Player Likenesses… that’s your opinion. I simply disagree with you and Dan in this respect.
@ Dave O
I think there should be a Stat for Strength + Body Type. This would be a more accurate concept in my opinion.
Here are a few Stats that IMO would establish some much-needed differences:
—————————————————–
* Strength: determines for how long the player can hold the ball when going at Slow speeds. It also affects on the defensive end, depending on how fast the defender and attacker are moving.
* Slow Dribble: determines accuracy when Dribbling at a Slow Pace. This attribute is directly linked with Strength.
* Posting Up: determines the ability to create space with the use of the body -when- Stationary. This attribute is directly linked with Strength.
* Shielding Technique: determines dribbling accuracy when completely stationary. This attribute complements with “posting Up” but is not the same thing -and- covers for dribbling skills such as Drag Back / Sole of the Foot dribbles. it is directly linked with Strength.
* Balance: the player is harder to push off-balance when dribbling or running at his top speed. This attribute haves little to do with strength, and also affects the defensive game.
* Top Speed Dribble: determines the accuracy when Dribbling at High Speeds. This attribute is directly linked with Balance.
* Explosiveness: determines that burst of acceleration when shifting from a Stationary stance or dribble into Movement.
* Acceleration: determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed -once- the player is Actually Running with the ball. This attribute is more important when you have the space to exploit it.
—————————————————-
Give and take a few already-in-use Stats like the one-dimensional Dribbling Accuracy, Acceleration and Balance, and Dribble Speed… those are only 4 New Stats minus One (Post Player) Special Ability, nothing out of reach.
Further elaboration:
A player with Great Dribbling Accuracy but Average Strength – will not hold the ball accurately when under pressure and could go to ground easily, but will very likely win a free-kick because of his close control.
Whereas on the other hand a player with Average Dribbling Accuracy and Strength – will not hold the ball accurately when under pressure or in small spaces, could go to ground easily, and is less likely to win free-kicks.
A player with Great Explosiveness and Dribbling Accuracy, but Average Strength – will not need Strength that much because he can shift from Stationary into Movement very fast, therefore his Balance will be more important.
However, a player with Great Explosiveness and Dribbling Accuracy but Average Strength – will not be capable of posting up or “shielding” the ball for long periods of time. He will not be capable of “shielding” and holding the ball in a Stationary stance or dribble.
Players like Carlos Valderrama, Riquelme, Zidane, Bergkamp, and some other lesser-known individuals -have- that ability of being completely Stationary and maintaining possession of the ball -NOT- by the use of force and physique -BUT- by the use of Technique.
With a Stat for Stationary Dribbles such as “Shielding Technique” we would differentiate players like Riquelme from players like Kaka.
Shielding Technique will determine the accuracy of dribbles like the roulette or drag back -when- Stationary. On the other hand, Slow Dribble will determine the accuracy/effectiveness of dribbles like the roulette -when- Moving at a Slow Pace.
Therefore it would be fitting to have Special Abilities for some specific type of dribbles: Sole of the Foot dribbles / Drag Back dribbles, Roulette, Step Over, Flicking Ball over opponent, Nutmeg, First Touch dribbles, and a few others.
This would add further individuality and realism into the game… as Kaka doesn’t uses the Sole of the Foot for dribbling, I have never seen him attempting a Drag Back nor other Sole of the Foot dribbles. Which is weird for a South American player… Kaka lacks Technique. Plus he never uses flashy skills like Step Overs.
Messi never uses the 360ª Roulette nor Step Overs. Riquelme mostly uses Sole of the Foot dribbles and I’ve never seen him attempting to do a Roulette. Zinedine Zidane used the Roulette dribble in many different situations, as well as Step Overs.
Many players have good First Touch, but very few have attempted to do the things/dribbles that Dennis Bergkamp could do with his First Touch, not even Zidane had the imagination to attempt such things with his First Touch… etc, etc.
The L1 button or R2 button should work differently for different type of dribblers.
It would add further individualism into the game -and- to be honest I don’t think it should be hard at all. We already have some of those skills in the game; it’s just a matter of turning them into Special Abilities.
As for Strength vs Body Type…
FRANCO BARESI – one of the best Defenders of all-time and very hard to push off-balance, the guy had a very average physique: notably skinny and average height. Baresi is a famous example of a Small Player who was very strong.
Large (or tall) but weak players – Adebayor, Peter Crouch, Van Persie.
Tall-skinny but strong players – Dennis Bergkamp, Rivaldo, Fernando Torres, Riquelme, Marco Van Basten, Alessandro Nesta, David Trezeguet…
Average size players with great strength – Franco Baresi, Johan Cruyff, George Best, Carlos Valderrama, Roy Keane, Carles Puyol, Samir Nasri…
Small players with great strength – Maradona, Pele, Romario, Andres Iniesta, Arshavin, Tevez, Aguero…
My opinion is, have a Stat for Strength. Body Type could be used in a more general way, Marcos Senna has a stocky type of body and therefore covers more space than the average player by just standing there.
I’m sure something can be done with the Body Type of each individual, it could perhaps be used in a more basic way. Regardless of Strength, Zidane’s Body/Physique is better for “shielding” the ball -than- Messi’s body.
Rio Ferdinand’s Body Type (Height) is better for Heading the ball or for blocking a free-kick. Body Type can be used for more basic things, but I think Strength should be an individual Stat.
Like I said before, I think Strength + Body Type would be more accurate.
Just a quick summary stating what should be obvious by now — PES is a series in decline, and Konami keeps throwing more and more lies to cover it up.
Pointless thread?? Call it whatever you want, but Konami deserves this type of criticism for adding insult to injury.. blatantly lying to their own customers.
* Without wasting any more words, this are just some of the quotes from Seabass on PES08:
“We have taken a long hard look at what has made the Pro Evolution Soccer series so popular, and where we want to take it next,”
“With the new Teamvision AI system, we truly believe that we have elevated the game to a new level. The movement of players off the ball, coupled with the total control given to the player, creates the closest simulation of real football to date. We really hope everyone enjoys our evolution. I promise it will be worth the wait.”
“We have also introduced our new Teamvision AI. This is a sophisticated AI programme that learns and adapts according to the player’s style of gameplay”.
“We cannot say which but there are plenty of new moves in the game. When we say moves it’s not just about a single, certain move either. Instead there are more subtle things, such as the timing of passes, the start of runs… We’ve tweaked and changed these timings and that affects the way the game plays, so much so it often feels like some of the moves are new”.
“We realised that past PES games were pretty much close to perfect – we tweaked the games every year and continued to do so for a long time, so it was natural for the game to be good. However, we knew we’d have to start afresh for the next-gen game”.
“I am most proud that we created something that surpasses PES6. In terms of AI and the way the game plays, I think this creates a new game to the PES of old. The traditional PES graphics have improved too and I’m proud we have accomplished both – the graphics and the gameplay – at the same time. You will have a great time with your friends, I guarantee that!”.
* This comments are from Jon Murphy, PES Project Leader for Konami Digital Entertainment GmbH:
““The announcement of a new PES game is always a highlight for Konami, but PES 2009 looks set to reaffirm the series’ utter superiority,”
“We are committed to extending the realism of the new game with a wealth of key gameplay additions, and will produce a football title that truly embodies all the skill and pace that is good about the modern game.”
* This next one is from Kunio Neo, president of Konami:
““We are extremely confident that PES 2008 will be welcomed as the greatest football game of all time,”
“Demand is massive for what is easily the best Pro Evolution Soccer title to date, and we anticipate record sales as we bring the series to PlayStation 3 for the first time, and unleash stunning versions for all leading formats.”
* This are comments posted by Konami, don’t know who wrote or came up with them, but I still find this quotes amusing:
“The new game has undergone a stunning graphical update to ensure its players look and move even more like their real-life counterparts”
“Similarly, all-new options allow users to tailor the game to their own tastes, while new moves, innovative new control elements and key online elements will further the realism of the new game”.
“PES09 is the most advanced, most realistic and most satisfying , PES game to date. The game has made radical advances, including new moves, innovative new control elements and a vastly improved online mode to further enhance the realism.
With a stunning graphical update and a wealth of gameplay improvements, PES 2009 truly embodies all the skill and pace that makes the modern game beautiful”.
————————————————————————–
Just a quick read and you would have to agree that Seabass and rest of the guys at Konami are pretty full of ****.
And I must question.. just how is it exactly that the players “move even more like their real-life counterparts” ??? I would really like to know, considering each and every single player in the game moves like a robot.
Would also like to know about the “key gameplay additions”, What could that be?
And I don’t even need to elaborate on the “vastly improved online mode”.
Fortunately the fans have showed them they aren’t fooled, and have done so in the best of ways — The series has taken its 1st significant dip in sales, the clearest hint of decline to date.
By now Konami must know that if they keep this Fiasco going -the- sales will keep declining.
All I will say to that is that Konami are hardly going to say negative things about a game they are just about to release – of course they are going to say their product is the greatest. In truth both PES 08 & 09 have been let downs but on the whole their fanbase is still strong & I along with everyone else are holding on high hopes that Seabass & co will rectify mistakes & deliver a great football game on PES 2010 given that they are throwing much more resources at the new release & are at least listening to the fans that have kept the developers in jobs.
Lets give the new game a chance & just see what happens.
On a different note I was just wanting to know what has become of DD’s “PES OFF” blog as it has been missing now for the past 2 weeks, hope all is well…
everybody knows what your saying by know amateur because you say it over and over again. if you havent got any new ideas just dont post
this article needed some serious spellchecking before it was published.
It seems Dougie has resigned given the high level of opposition Towards him
I agree with 38. We all understand what Amateur is saying. He is the only one who seems to think we are all too dumb to comprehend his brilliant ideas. My point, however, is that the ideas he is presenting are basically right, but…
A.) Not as big of a problem as he makes them out to be. It’s a game, and of course we would all like to see it perfect… But having been in design myself I know that these things are easier said than done. Everything is, so I’m just trying to inject some sense of realism into what I think is an embrassing image of what the community really thinks. We don’t ALL have such high expectations, and it is a mistake to think that the reason for that is because we are all not as imaginative or creative as Amateur is.
B.) I think it is clear that some of the suggestions are not properly founded in an undertsanding of how the game actually works. For example, the body balance issue. Let’s not confuse this with individual player animations for the likes of Messi and Ronaldo. Way to deflect a relevant question… Again, I am asking whether there is really a problem with strength and body balance that makes it so that we need to add a stat. Answer the questions people are asking instead of rambling on about other things and you might get more respect, from me anyway. If you have a small player, like Messi, he can have dribble accuracy 95 and body balance 95 if you want. What else do you want?
Another thing – Luca Modric: yes, has good dribble acc but not as good balance. So, in the game he will have good dribble acc but not as good balance… Like I said, dribble acc and balance are different, but do similar things. I shoudl clarify though that only for players with really high dribble accuracy does the stat start to resemble body balance, in that the player will be harder to knock off the ball.
Honestly dude, I don’t mind arguing, but you have to be fair and answer people’s questions. Tell me, specificially what player you feel is not represented accurately in PES 09 which requires a different stat? And keep it simple, not a 20 page essay on 100 different topics.
Is it C ronaldo vs Messi that is your big beef? If that’s the case, you need to be specific. Is it that you think C Ronaldo isn’t strong enough, or that Messi is too strong Phsycially? What is it that shoudl be different, other than the style/animations? What stat specifically are you saying is needed to differentiate them?
I agree with Dave O. Amateur lacks the maturity to construct a decent argument and uses his endless points to attempt to justify his views. By doing this he just sounds ridiculous, arrogant and childish.
@42 – Well, that’s not what I’m saying, really. I think Amateur is often misunderstood actually, but it’s usually that he’s just not explaining things so that the rest of us can understand what it is he’s saying (he doesn’t go into enough detail, just making blanket statements which he considers “FACT” without explaining why, then moving on to similar rants about other things, etc, etc, etc).
In the past, on certain issues I have come to understand his view (and on others not), but in this case I’m totally baffled, and more than slightly insulted as well, but I don’t think it’s that I’m too dumb, just that the case isn’t being presented in its entirety. That’s why I want to get to the bottom of this body balance vs strength thing (not that I really care), just so that we can all try to get on the same page, if possible… but to be honest I kind of doubt that will happen.
PES 2010 should be mint!
please come back dougieee
If there is someone you constantly and consistently disagree with here on the comments, then move on and ignore them. I’m trying to read relevant and intersting views on the articles and I instead have to sift through personality arguments and personal critiques…..
@ Dave O
Adriano and Ibrahimovbic – Their BALANCE transfers to all areas:
* When Stationary.
* When Dribbling Slowly.
* When Dribbling at High Speeds.
The difference between STRENGTH and BALANCE is completely non-existent in every single PES title to date. This is not arguable, this is a FACT.
Adranio = God. You can basically push your way out of anything. I can easily score goals with Adriano or Ibrahimovic pretty much at will.
Cristiano Ronaldo – he is my Playmaker, my Striker, my Defensive Midfielder, and my Center Back… his Pace and Agility makes him unrealistically good.
My problem is that Cristiano Ronaldo is: Riquelme, Messi, and Makelele -in- One Package.
I will never respect a Football Simulation in which there are no differences between players. It loses all meaning, to play a Collective game without proper Team Chemistry.
But whatever… you want to see the same Stats that they have been using for over a decade?? I have no problem with that, it’s your opinion. I’m just saying that they are OUTDATED and it is pointless to argue against that.
If Messi haves a Balance of 95 and Dribbling of 95 – he will be just as good as Riquelme when Dribbling Slowly or when Stationary… which is utter BS.
Balance and Strength are different things. Just like Top Speed and Acceleration are different attributes. Just like Passing and Shooting are different… End of story.
You don’t think it should be a priority??
Well, I completely disagree with that -and- I think it should be a Top Priority… Because it is a huge flaw that should have been fixed by now.
Individual player animations?? Extremely important.
Pro Evolution still uses the same exact IDENTICAL Foundations to this day. It’s just a Paint job on the same old car.
@ Dave O
Oh, and no offense -but- you asked “Honestly, I think you would need an example of a player who is large but weak in order to make the claim that a strength attribute is necessary”.
I answered your question, by mentioning: Adebayor, Peter Crouch, Van persia -and- KAKA.
Then you respond – “Honestly dude, I don’t mind arguing, but you have to be fair and answer people’s questions”
I have a question of my own now Dave O – Do you actually read My Posts?? Because, judging by your responses, I get the impression that you don’t read properly.
Anonymous, post 33 said:
“I’m not using the “Amateur” name simply because I don’t consider myself nor want to be part of this community”
Well then….STOP POSTING HERE. We want you to be part of this communtiy even less than you do so please, PLEASE, do us a favour and take your arrogant, ignorant and repetitive lectures elsewhere.
…not to WENB though please.
@ Jon
Please take your POINTLESS AND REPETITIVE comments elsewhere. Do you think insulting someone contributes anything Objective to this site??
Arrogant, ignorant, and repetitive… Hypocrisy at its finest.
@ Amateur
In terms of insulting it seems Amateur has ate his own words with his last post!
Nobody respects you or your opinions Amateur. Pathetic individual who really has a sad existence starting petty arguments with other members of PESgaming who are actually interested in the future of pro evo.
I know that this might be slightly off topic here as everyone seems concerned with slating each other, but I feel that the injury system in pro evo needs a major overhaul!!
Players always walk off holding there hamstring, even if the fell down in agony holding another part of there leg. And the longest I’ve seen a player out injured is 2 weeks. Surely if this is supposed to be the next gen game we’ve been waiting for then we should have a more deatialed injury system. This would make the master league even more realistic.
And before amateur starts cracking on about more and more and more and more stats, if they do overhaul the stats, they could link injuries to a new stat!!
Everyone knows about the “fluid and addictive gameplay” of the Older PES versions.. But something many fans overlook is the fact that, in the PS2 days, PES was well ahead of FIFA in terms of STATS. The Substance those Stats provided was a key factor in The King’s dominance.
Is it a good sign of progress?? The FACT that PES4 and PES09 have the same exact set of STATS and Special Abilities.. is this progress?
Pro Evolution was appealing because it was more Realistic and Challenging than FIFA, FIFA was labeled as the “arcade-game” and PES was labeled as the more “realistic simulation”.
Tey change can happen when you keep doing the same things for long enough.. the same so-called “evolutions” every year, this was not going to work forever.
We still have the same one-dimensional STATS.. STATS like “Dribbling Accuracy”. Should a Single STAT such as “Dribbling Accuracy” cover for:
* Cutting the Ball.
* Step Overs.
* Shielding the Ball.
* Body Feints.
* First touch
* Flicking the Ball.
* 360ª Roulette and 180ª spins
* Nutmeg.
* Avoiding Tackles.
This are all different abilities/attributes and therefore should be Individual Stats. Why is Konami still using out of date STATS?
It gets Unrealistic whenever I see Leo Messi doing Step Overs like Cristiano Ronaldo. Or Carlos Tevez doing some Outrageous Roulette, which he probably has never done in real-life.
Riquelme not doing any of his trademark South American Dribbles with the Sole of the Foot.
It is plain and inaccurate to have everyone from Leo Messi to Cristiano Ronaldo to Riquelme -DRIBBLING- in the same exact identical fashion. It’s unrealistic and disappointing.
We need to have more Specific Dribbling STATS that work differently in every different situation. For example:
Shielding the Ball – The higher this attribute the better the player will hold the ball when going at Slow Pace or when in the Middle of the pitch.
The “Shielding the Ball” STAT would define very fundamental differences.. players like Zinedine Zidane, Carlos Valderrama, and Juan Roman Riquelme would have a great “Shielding Ability” that allows them to hold the ball and maintain possession at a Slow Pace – A very unusual and difficult thing to do.
People who do not play Real Football cannot fully appreciate just how difficult it is to hold and maintain possession whilst going at a slow pace. Only a handful of players have that unique ability.
Players like Kaka and Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard cannot do that, they need to run in order to maintain possession. They don’t have the Technique required to maintain possession at a slow pace.
Some players are better at “Close Control Slow Dribbling” whereas other players are better at “High Speed Dribbling”. This Fundamental Aspect of Football is completely non-existent in PES09.
To this I can add obvious improvements, such as changing the Old “Shot Accuracy” Stat and make it more Realistic and Specific. Dividing it into Stats like:
* Long Range Shot.
* Close Range Shot.
* Chip Shot.
Taking the old “Shot Technique” Stat and elaborating on it:
* Shot Composure.
* Shot Technique.
Why??
Shot Technique would determine the actual shooting technique of an individual, if he can shot right after dribbling, if he can shot accurately at high speeds, etc, etc.. On the other hand “Shot Composure” would determine how the player shots the ball under pressure.
One “Shot Technique” Stat cannot be that specific.
Running Attributes??
You have players who are faster in Short Sprints and Small Spaces.. take Diego Maradona for example, and compare him with Thierry Henry.
Thierry Henry (in his prime) had great Acceleration and Top Speed, but he was never comfortable in small spaces, he was not that good in short explosive sprints. He never had that “explosive burst of acceleration” that The Brazilian Ronaldo had.
This is why I think that the game needs a New Stat to complement with the Older Ones. We only have “Top Speed”, “Acceleration”, and “Agility”. Not good enough anymore.
There is the old “Acceleration” Stat that determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed. Why not elaborate on it and make it deeper and more realistic?
Like for example, include a Stat for determining an individual’s “Explosiveness” when he goes from “Stationary to Running”.
The more explosive the individual the better he’ll be in short sprints, in small spaces, when changing pace, or when shifting from stationary to sprinting.
Meaning that once the player shifts a few gears the “Acceleration” Stat should then take over. But in the Lower Gears, or when “changing from stationary to sprinting” the “Explosiveness” Stat would be much more relevant.
In other words, when going at a Slow Pace the “Explosiveness” would be more important. And when going at a 70% sprint the “Acceleration” Stat is more important.
The old “Agility” Stat simply doesn’t cut it in this respect, because agility really haves nothing to do with “explosiveness”. There are plenty of world class players, who are agile and fast, but do not posses that same “burst of speed” when going from “stationary to moving”.
An individual can be agile and fast, but if he doesn’t haves that “explosiveness” he won’t make the most out of that agility and pace. Or at least won’t be as much of a threat as he would be if he was an explosive player.
Compare the Brazilian Ronaldo with Cristiano Ronaldo.. The Brazilian Ronaldo didn’t seemed as “agile” or as “quick with his feet” as Cristiano Ronaldo -BUT- R9 had an “explosive burst of speed” that made him lethal.
You can make the same comparison between Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi.. both have good Pace and Agility, but Leo Messi haves “an explosive burst of acceleration” that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn’t haves.
Leo Messi doesn’t necessarily haves a higher Top Speed, but he goes from 0 to 60 like a Ferrari.
Whereas on the other hand, Ronaldo haves more or less the same Top Speed, the same Agility, good Acceleration once he is going at a quick stride.. but he needs more Space and Time to develop that velocity. He cannot shift from a Stationary stance to a 100% sprint like Messi or Maradona.
Acceleration, Agility, and Top Speed are simply NOT enough to define such differences.
Passing Stats??
Short Pass Accuracy, Short Pass Speed, Long Pass Accuracy, Long Pass Speed.. it’s just not good enough for a Next Gen Simulation.
How can I say that one player is better at “Short Ground Passes” whereas another individual is better at “Long Ground Passes”?? How can I have that with the current Passing Stats?
Why not improve it?
* Short Ground Pass.
* Long Ground Pass.
* Short Lobbed Pass.
* Long Lobbed Pass.
Still only 4 Stats, but better organized and more specific. Those 4 Stats would determine Accuracy. To this we add a Stat for “Through Ball Technique”.
And the “Though Ball Technique” STAT dictates the kind of passes an individual can pull off. Which haves little to do with “Passing Speed or Accuracy” and more to do with “Vision”. Not everyone haves the same Vision and Creativity as Riquelme, not even good Accurate Passers like Steven Gerrard and Pavel Nedved
Meaning that if an individual haves great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” — he will give accurate but simple passes, fail-safe passes.. BUT no Riquelme-Fabregas-Type passes.
The accuracy remains intact, but not the freedom. A player with great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” would still have “great accuracy”. But his options would be limited, because he doesn’t haves the Vision required to make complicated passes. So it would be simple and limited, but safe and accurate.
There’s a difference between “good passers of the ball” and “great passers of the ball”. This is why players like Riquelme and Fabregas are so useful, because although they are Not fast, they can create something out of nothing with their brilliant vision.
Players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have complete freedom when Passing the ball, more options and possibilities when Passing the ball.. because they can basically pull off any type of pass. This would make players like Riquelme and Fabregas far more appreciated within the game.
Which is something that the current Passing Stats are definitely NOT doing properly.. for one thing, when I use Leo Messi I have a huge advantage because the guy can get past anyone with his great pace and dribbling.
But when I use Riquelme or Fabregas.. I just don’t feel any advantages, I do Not feel like I have more Passing Opportunities because Vision is non-existent, something that greatly diminishes the use of players like Fabregas and Riquelme.
What’s my point??
* Pro Evolution needs to effectively Evolve along with its fans, and beyond PES6 and PES5.
Konami needs to understand that a polished-up version of PES6 is not good enough anymore. Many of us customers have grown past that.
For one thing, I can say that PES6 was a great “PS2 game” with great “replay value”. But after 2 to 3 years of playing it, I can see the flaws more noticeably after each play.. PES6 is not good enough anymore.
It lacks depth and substance, it needs more Stats and Concepts.. it was a great PS2 game, but would make an average Next Gen game.
With all this said..
The press release did had a couple of interesting quotes:
—————————————————-
“PES 2010: New Season, All New Game”
“Major gameplay additions will make PES 2010 the most realistic football simulation available”
“PES 2010 focuses on being a real football simulation, as it requires both strategic play and quick reactions, as in real life”
“thus returning PES 2010 to its simulation roots”
—————————————————
Interesting quotes from Konami.. Konami needs to dump the whole arcade approach, and start building on the “Simulation Roots” of the good old versions of PES.
There seems to be a lot of focus on achieving the “most realistic football simulation available”.
And..
I just find it odd that Konami has not mentioned anything about implementing “all-new stats into the game to better define player attributes and individualism, for a greater level of realism”.
I think the “most realistic football simulation available” should come hand-in-hand with a Stat Revolution, to achieve a greater level of realism.
Restoring the good old simulation roots is not good enough anymore.. Konami needs to build on their old “simulation roots”.
They say “New Season, All New Game” — How is it an All New Game?? Because it haves couple of new animations and flicks here and there? Because of improved graphics and movements?
We have seen that before, it’s always the same Type of Evolution with PES.. Why does Konami Refuses to Update their Foundations??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game — are The STATS.
If the Stats remain the same, the differences between Individuals will remain the same.. and as a result Individuals and Teams will pretty much play like Identical Copies.
This is why Inter Milan, Barcelona, Manchester United -all- feel the same.. different uniforms and faces, but same exact Ability — it gets Boring and Repetitive.
@ Anonymous – No, I don’t read all of the twenty page essays, only the short ones, but I have read plenty of the longer ones in the past. It isn’t because I’m lazy or dumb or don’t know how to read. I have a University degree in English, so I think I know how to read properly. It’s just that when I read the first few lines of your post I usually have to stop and say to myself “Whoa… what are we saying here???”
For example:
_____________________
Amateur wrote:
Adriano and Ibrahimovbic – Their BALANCE transfers to all areas:
* When Stationary.
* When Dribbling Slowly.
* When Dribbling at High Speeds.
The difference between STRENGTH and BALANCE is completely non-existent in every single PES title to date. This is not arguable, this is a FACT.
_________________
Again, I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand what you mean dude!!!! And it doesn’t help me at all to hear you say it is a fact (and the capitals don’t help me either). Do you mean that Adriano and Ibrahimovic should be easy to knock off the ball when stationary, etc…? Are you forgetting that body type plays a factor as well as dribble acc in determining how those players will perform under those different conditions? What exactly is the problem with those players in PES in your opinion? Be specific.
In real life Ibrahimovic is a beast, and Adriano could be if his head were in the right place, so I don’t see the problem with their stats. If you added strength, what more would it do that isn’t already represented in the game by Body Balance and body type (plus dribble acc in a different way)? In other words, what would “strength” do?To me, it’s like saying we need a stat for shot placement, when we already have shot accuracy and the scoring special attribute. All I’m asking for is a freaking explanation here, not another “fact” statement without clarification.
Also, about RVP and Adebayor… As a Gooner who has watched every Aresnal game in recent memory I can say that Adebayor isn’t weak. And is Crouch weak? I don’t think he’s the easiest to knock off the ball, from what I’ve seen. Also, RVP isn’t large, and neither is Kaka in my opinion (those two have an average body build I would say, though Kaka is a bit bigger, and yet again I’m not sure I would say Kaka is weak, or easy to knock off the ball).
However, I like the advice given by Andrew which is to say “agree to disagree.” I tried to ask some straight forward questions, but the responses have left me even more baffled than before, and it’s really not my problem to try to straighten out what it is that you’re saying. I just want you to know that if I’m not responding it’s because I’ve given up on trying to understand because I’m not getting the help – just insulted. I think you and I could see eye to eye, but if you’re not willing to listen to someone and try to help them when they are honestly telling you that your not getting your point across, then what else can I say?
@52 – good point. PES 09 injuries are messed. I think this would be a good topic to discuss further and add to the suggestion list actually.
My only question is:
How does he do it?? How does he write these essays DAY IN AND DAY OUT?
Its incredible, honestly.
Great article Dan, although it needs some serious spell check :)
Pls hurry up n implement the log in system. Tired of reading these childish banter.
amateur you say that players like riquelme or fabregas should have greater passing freedom and vision but how could this be implemented. im not disagreeing with you its just that the vision to pick out passes comes from whoevers playing the game then the player on the pitch executes it based on their passing stats.
thats the reason why players who are reknowned for picking out great passes to open up defences have always been relatively ineffective on pes and its difficult to see a way around it.
like you say gerrard has good passing stats but has nothing like the vision of someone like fabregas. however if im playing with gerrard i can see a through ball and play it just as easily as with fabregas.
i agree its a problem but i dont see what a “vision” stat would do to solve it.
i cant believe i felt bit bad about amateur/ anonymous
and posted sotrry for slating him
i take it back your so full of shi!!!
and when i do see your posts i will just skip them as your copying and pasting the same bull every day!
i get enough brain washing in work without you trying
Only recently discovered this site, and been reading the responses with great interest.
Just to add to the stat debate that seems to be going round… I think we also got to consider if any changes will make the game fun to play. I’m all for realism to a degree, but I buy PES to PLAY the game, not just to simply watch it. Right now, PES is simply not fun to play, and I don’t think throwing all assortment of stats at it will make any difference.
Personally, I think the current set of stats are fine (although I wouldn’t mind having keepers get their own independant set of stats). I just feel they need to be better implemented. But that’s an AI problem, not a lack of stats. Personally, I feel the AI favours the dribbly players too much and gives whoever you’re facing an unfair advantage by having YOUR players reluctant to tackle, YOUR players falling over too easily, and YOUR players’ off-ball movement ranging from the bizzare to the non-existent, no matter who you’re controlling. Again, that’s an AI problem… adding more stats is pointless if the AI renders them useless.
Going to the “vision” point… again, when I’m PLAYING the game, I should be the one looking out for killer passes or moves. The stats should only dictate the quality of the pass and the quality of off-ball movement, which the current set of stats should do already. Vision only becomes important when you’re not controlling the player with the ball (such as in BAL mode). But again, there are stats that should be doing that. The only reason they don’t appear to do much is… I say it again… the inadequate AI.
I’ve got more ideas on how to improve PES which I won’t bore you with right now. But my point is that if the AI get fixed, the stat “problems” will probably fix themselves and, more importantly, make the game fun to play again.
Amateur why do you insist on posting under different names? Are you seeing a specialist about your problems? Poor love!
Funny that you picked Brainplant though…………… Ironic!
Trust me, I’m not Amateur. I’m actually AGAINST having more stats.
Surely even he wouldn’t argue with himself.
@ Pla.
Have you played FIFA09?? If so, with Vision you would get a FIFA09 type of passing. You can control the direction more accurately, closer to 360ª passing, and you can control the pace on the pass more accurately.
On the other hand, a player with average vision would have the COM-Assisted and Restrictive passing of PES09. Passing that logically cannot go through intricate angles because of the restrictive 8-directions.
If you compare FIFA09 Passing -with- PES09 Passing… You do get more freedom and control in FIFA09. That’s the freedom that players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have in PES.
Plus the same principles as always…
A player with average Vision does not slips passes through difficult angles. Just like a player with poor Shooting Accuracy does NOT scores from difficult angles. It’s the same principles as Shooting Accuracy -but- for Ground Through Balls.
Not everyone haves the ability that Riquelme and Xavi haves… and IMO the game looses all meaning and credibility when I barely notice any difference between Riquelme’s Passing -and- Thierry Henry’s Passing.
It doesn’t haves to be a Vision Stat… It could be a Special Ability. However, the game certainly needs something in this respect -because- it’s getting old.
@ Dave O
What exactly is the problem with those players in PES in My opinion?
Riquelme = Scholes.
Cristiano Ronaldo = Leo Messi = Aguero = Robinho
Adriano = Ibra
Anything Riquelme or Fabregas do -Cristiano Ronaldo or Kaka- can do better. Player Likenesses have gone missing and are almost non-existent in PES09.
Do you notice any difference between players??
Because I have played the game extensively, and I don’t need anyone to tell me that “Body Type” is a relevant factor in-game. Body Type is only relevant for Heading the ball -But- it is Insignificant in terms of STRENGTH.
It’s all about BALANCE, Dribble Accuracy, Dribbling Speed, Technique, Shooting Power, Shooting Accuracy, Agility, and Top Speed.
In PES, Strength = Balance.
Kaka is not weak??
This is where FACT differs form Opinion. You see, I base my FACTS on Evidence, like Video Footage. And it is because of that that I dared to mention that Kaka is NOT a strong player, and for his size he is noticeably weak.
You think Kaka is not weak, it’s your opinion. However Fact remains, the Evidence is always there, compare Kaka with the likes of Ronaldinho and Riquelme.
I’m saying that Adriano and Ibrahimovic should be hard to push-off Balance when STATIONARY and when DRIBBLING SLOWLY, as it is in this sort of situation that Strength is very important.
However, Strength is not as important when you are Dribbling or Running at your Top Speed. YOUR Top Speed, which differs between Individuals.
Which is something that Konami clearly doesn’t understands -because- the likes of Adriano and Ibra can run the length of the pitch by simply pushing every defender in their way.
When Dribbling Slowly, when Stationary, when Dribbling at their Top Speed… it doesn’t matter -they- can always use their BALANCE to the same identical (hugely effective) effect, regardless of the position and situation.
It is completely unrealistic for Obvious reasons. BALANCE is a very vague and overrated attribute in PES -and- consequently you do NOT get Consistent Player Likenesses. It is a one-dimensional game for one-dimensional fans like YOU.
You are going in Circles arguing against something that it’s so obvious, you avoid answering questions, you avoid relevant points, and you somehow get confused by Capitals.
Your University degree in English, it isn’t that good is it? I mean, you get confused by Capitals… and you don’t understand things that are clearly written.
At this point, I really don’t care about your Opinion Dave O… so whatever you say. I don’t care, have it your way.
Oh and Kaka is 6 ft 1 in tall -which- is not exactly “average” amongst Football players.
but id be a bit unrealistic to have some players with a full range of passing angles and others being restrictive. fabregas isnt good because he can pass at differnet angles to other players its because he can see things better and then weight and direct the pass perfectly.
plus im pretty sure your not restricted to 8 direction passing in pes.
Brainplant, post 58
But problem is that even in PES5 and PES6, which where games well ahead of their time… even then you could notice that the Stats and Special Abilities needed an Upgrade.
Stats would not make the game more COM-Assisted. On the contrary, it would give us more Control and features.
Example: the Vision Stat.
A player with good Vision Stat like Riquelme would have complete 360ª Freedom when Passing the ball. This would give you a lot more options with Riquelme or Xavi or Fabregas.
On the other hand, an Individual with Average Vision will have the same old COM-Assisted and Restrictive 8-directional movement. And consequently, a player with average vision will not be capable of slipping passes through intricate angles -because- of the restrictive 8-directional passing, still in use to this day.
Do note, that when I say Vision I mean range of movement -when- Passing the ball. It is directly linked with Passing Accuracy, but is NOT the same thing. Accuracy is Accuracy. Vision determines the freedom.
This would encourage Collective Play, which is the essential in Football, it’s that factor that makes it all meaningful.
More Stats would not make the game more COM-Assisted… I really fail to understand why so many people see it that way.
When actually, Lack of Stats and Lack of Innovation all around, and apparently rubbish programming -is- what makes PES09 so COM-Assisted and boring to play. It doesn’t haves that old “Play Again and Again” value that PES5 and PES6 still hold to this day.
Stats would make the game more fun and realistic, as well as challenging. Stats will define Player Likenesses, and Player Likenesses will dictate Collective Play.
Without proper STATS and proper Player Likenesses it’s all an Arcade affair, and will get boring and repetitive very quickly.
Which is one of the main issues with both PES09 and FIFA09.
And I guess it’s worth mentioning again, Konami has used the same Stats and Special Abilities for over a Decade.
But I guess some people still want to use the one-dimensional D-Pad. Even though the Left Analogue would provide more depth and accuracy.
So I definitely see Why so many people are unconcerned by Stats, they are not interested in significant improvements. They just want to play PES6 in Next Gen Graphics.
And then, after playing FIFA (even though they want PES to remain a D-Pad based game) they complain about the restrictive 8-directional movement in PES.
@ pla, post 63.
That’s how it is in Real Life -and- this is the only way it can be reflected in a Football Simulation.
How can you simulate Vision in a Football Sim?? It’s the only way, you give some players the ability/freedom to slip difficult passes that require something precise than the 8-directional D-Pad.
On the other hand, players with average vision CANNOT have the same freedom -otherwise- vision would be non-existent and everything would be determined by vague Stats such as “Passing Accuracy” and “Passing Speed”.
There would be no difference between Steven Gerrard and Juan Roman Riquelme, there would be no difference between Michael Ballack and Cesc Fabregas.
It would be an ARCADE GAME. Very one-dimensional and unrealistic, as well as repetitive.
This is WHY PES is so COM-Assisted. Because the variation of passing angles is endless -and- yet, the game is still based on the D-Pad. And the D-Pad can only go in 8 Directions… do the math.
Every pass is almost-entirely decided by the COM. So what’s the Point of players like Riquelme and Xavi?? What’s the point?
We cannot have full control and freedom with every individual in the game. It’s very easy to notice all the Passing Angles from Wide Angle View. Therefore is would be ridiculous if every player haves the same range of Passing Freedom. Because anyone can see the space from Wide View.
However, it is a completely different thing to be aware of those passing angles when you are actually playing on the pitch. It is a skill, and the only way of “Simulating” this would be by differentiating the Range of Passing Freedom between players.
Poor Vision – 8 Directional Passing.
Average Vision – 16 Directional Passing.
Great Vision – 360ª Passing.
It would be a shame if Vision is overlooked again. Everyone will play like Barcelona: Inter, Man Utd, AC Milan, etc, etc. There will be no difference between big Teams and big Players.
Riquelme = Gerrad.
Fabregas = Ballack.
Pirlo = Stankovic
Xavi = Seedorf
It’s just old by now, it’s repetitive, it’s one-dimensional. It should improve.
where the hell is news about pes 2010? My grannys got more info than u guys!
@ pla, again… sorry.
It doesn’t haves to be 8 Directional… but it should be highly Assisted by the COM. Just like it has always been.
Those many misplaced or mistimed passes that take place in PES09. Do we have any control over that?? No we don’t, regardless of the actual “passing angles” -the- game is still based on the d-pad which can only go in 8 directions.
Therefore the COM needs to improvise in many occasions… deciding if a Pass should go right where you want it to, or if it will be ridiculously misplaced and mistimed.
This is how players with Average Vision should Pass the ball, we should not have Full Control over the trajectory and pace of the pass.
On the other hand, with players like Xavi, Riquelme, Fabregas, etc, etc. That should be a spacial feature, having full control over your Passing -instead- of depending on the whims of a COM.
Like I said before, it is very easy to notice all the Passing Angles from The Wide View -but- it is a completely different thing to notice those passing angles when Inside the pitch. It is a skill, and should be treated as such.
@ Anonymous (I’m guessing it’s Amateur)
Maybe I’m missing something (and forgive me if I am), but to me, the way you described how your Vision stat would work is pretty much the way some would describe Passing Accuracy. It describes how passers can aim where they want the ball to go better, but to me, that doesn’t describe vision.
To me, vision is finding the right person to pass to in the first place. The quality of said pass should be down to the accuracy and speed.
The only way I could see the Vision stat to work logically is to have it a Special ability in the same vein as Dribbling or Side… improving the way the COM plays, but has no bearing on how I, the player, plays the game.
Also, even if Vision makes it to the game, unless the off-ball AI is sorted, you’ll get the same incidents you get now… you’re trying to create that killer pass, but the rest of your team aren’t interested.
Just to clarify… I never mentioned or meant to imply that more stats would make the game more COM-assisted. I also agree with you that there’s no real difference between players, but that’s because I think the current stats have little impact on the players themselves. I can score and miss just as easily with Owen as I can with centre-back Ceciu. Likewise, trying to tackle using Nesta is just as frustrating as trying to tackle with winger Burchet. Is that down to a lack of stats? Not really when you think about it… that’s more down to the current stats not doing their job.
Anyhoo… here’s hoping that PES 2010 is a good game.
i see what your saying but it would make little difference to how useful these types of players are.
to be fair its one of the hardest things to get right becuase, like you say, its easy to see passes when you have the wide angle view so its difficult to differentiate between players with great vision.
Hi Lads,
Should more pics be made available in the summer as to how PES2010 is shaping up? Just thought I would ask. So far the Messi pic looks pretty impressive. Here hoping and Cheers to all!
Robbie
@ pla, post 69
It would make a massive difference IMO.
If everyone haves the same Range of Freedom in terms of Passing Directions… the game becomes an ARCADE GAME, just like in FIFA09 – Evereyone can give a good Through Ball, anyone can play Barcelona-Type Football.
Whereas in Real-Life… Chelsea and Barcelona are complete opposites, and Chelsea knows that cannot play attacking Football against Barcelona.
This Basic Fundamental is non-existent in FIFA09 and PES09.
@ Brainplant, post 68
No doubt, in PES09 many Stats do not work properly, nor consistently.
But back in PES5 and PES6 the STATS worked better… and even then you could tell that the Stats and Special Abilities needed an update.
As for the Vision Stat that I mentioned…
Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed are completely different to the “Vision” Stat that I mentioned. You need to modify things in order to implement them into a Football Sim…
We must consider that In a Football Sim you play the game from a Wide View Perspective, you control all the players in your team, you can see all the gaps… therefore it would be unrealistic if everyone haves the same Range of Freedom when Passing the ball.
Because you can easily see all the gaps from The Wide View Perspective… so the proper-way to implement “Vision” would be by implementing realistic Limitations.
So a “Vision” Stat for determining the Range of Passing Directions would be fitting.
* Poor Vision – 8 Directional Passing. (similar to PES09 passing, very restrictive and assisted by the COM)
* Average Vision – 16 Directional Passing. (similar to PES6 passing, although highly assisted by the COM, it still isn’t as restrictive as the Next Gen Passing)
* Great Vision – 360ª Passing. (similar to FIFA09 passing, more control and accuracy over the trajectory of the ball)
So that Individuals like Riquelme, Fabregas, Xavi, Pirlo, etc, etc. have complete 360ª freedom when Passing the ball, giving us full control over Passing -instead- of depending on the whims of a COM.
On the other hand, individuals with Average Vision should not have Full Control over the trajectory and pace of the pass. It doesn’t haves to be 8 Directional or 12 Directional… but it should be highly Assisted by the COM. Just like it has always been.
The Passing Accuracy Stat would remain intact because accuracy is accuracy. But the Vision Stat will determine the range of Freedom and control in terms of Passing Directions.
A player with average “Vision” but good “Passing Accuracy” will give simple but accurate passes, restrictive but accurate.
This would establish some important differences between players like Riquelme and players like Steven Gerrard, players like Fabregas and players like Ballack, etc, etc. Accuracy and Vision are different things.
Fundamental differences that are NOT properly defined in any PES game to date. Not even in PES5 and PES6.
My opinion is that, Vision and Accuracy are completely different things. And therefore I think a Stat for Vision would be massively beneficial.
@ 72
I kinda see where you’re getting at now. I still don’t think the 8-direction, 16-direction, etc. restriction would fully represent this Vision stat, though.
Here’s how I would implement it…
At low levels, you could only make short passes to players who are relatively close to you and long passes to those at an average distance. The distance a player can be to receive a short or long pass would then increase along with the stat.
Rudimentary example:
60 stat = 5 metres for short, 10 metres for long.
80 stat = 15 metres for short, 20 metres for long.
And so on.
No doubt this idea is rather flawed, but I think that would be better than restricting direction alone. The CPU will still play a part, and accuracy and speed will still be the deciding factor in the quality of the pass.
What do you think?
visit iwantmypesback.com and sign the petition!
There’s No I In Team
If you have read anything that I’ve written before you probably know that I don’t often have normal opinions, and I often find a lot of my viewpoints at least to a small degree controversial. This article will be no exception. If you like reading about the same old ideas or viewpoints I suggest you stop now. By writing what I’m about to write I expect to get flamed heavily and receive a large amount of flak. Frankly I will be disappointed if I don’t. I’m not trying to be the Skip Bayless of the Warcraft community because I truly believe what I am about to write. I at least ask that if you have made it this far that you read the entire article before calling me and idiot and logging off. This opinion that I am speaking of is about playing team games as opposed to solo, and it is that being a great team player is just as impressive as being a great soloer.
I would like to start by saying I have always been a team player rather than a solo player. I started with Random Team and then continued by joining a good clan and playing in leagues as a two on two team. I can’t explain why, but I just always felt like I was a better team player than a solo player. The reason for that is just as inexplicable as why you chose the race you did to play. For this reason I am not sure if I am just biased toward team games, or if I truly feel I am right.
I recently read a book called “Lone Survivor”, by Marcus Luttrell. It was about a navy SEAL team in Afghanistan that got ambushed, and is told from the perspective of Luttrell who was the only team member to survive. In this book, Luttrell repeatedly states the importance of fighting as a team, as one unit. The idea of going off to fight on your own is often suicide. Most major sports in the world are team based sports. Businesses brainstorm ideas in teams, and our Congress is essentially a giant team deciding the fate of our country. Hell, even most video games are team based. So what makes Warcraft any different? Warcraft III is one of the only things I can think of that is virtually dominated by individual play. Is it simply a function of the game itself or simply a trend that was never broken since its release? I think that is an interesting argument.
Everyone reading this is well aware of the obvious differences between solo and team games so I will spend very little time talking about them. Lets start by looking at the obvious argument against my viewpoint. To me, the most obvious flaw is simply Grubby and Moon. We are all aware of there solo resume, and that when they came together they were equally impressive. To me this is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. That is like being surprised when Kobe and Lebron win a two on two basketball tournament against your two local high school superstars. Of course they are going to win because individually the skill gap is way too high to be overcome by a good team that plays together often.
Let’s take a look at two famous two on two teams from our past and present: Apex and Aether, and Axslav and Strifecro. All of these players were and are above average solo players, but none of them are world class in solo. The games that these guys play that everyone wants to see are their team games. The single reason I began playing the game was watching the dual random games of Apex and Aether. The way they controlled the map and kept their opponents off balance was a thing of beauty. Sure they had good micro but that is not why they dominated most teams they played. The were always in sync and always knew exactly what the other was doing. Granted they were not always playing great opposition, but there dominance was impressive nonetheless. Years passed and the pro scene began to get bigger. As time went on I began to see less and less team games being posted. Leagues slowly drifted into the format of several solo matches and one or two team matches, and eventually always just one team match. After the years of playing on and off we began to see the rise of a few truly great twos teams culminated with Axslav and Strifecro. While they may not win every single game, I think there teamwork and team strategy is better than anyone else.
So what does all of this have to do with anything? Let me explain. To me we have lost a large portion of the potential for this game. We are all beaten over the head with solo game after solo game. Some people watch a lot of games, others practice endlessly, and many even join leagues and travel and compete in tournaments. Almost all of these players play solo. The benchmark of how good a player is is based on his or her solo game ability. I think the reason solo play is considered the only legitimate form of the game is because so many people play it. That sounds idiotic and redundant but let me elaborate. Let’s take poker for example. In the early nineties the popularity of poker skyrocketed. An amateur won the WSOP main event on national TV and everyone and their grandmother started playing poker. What happened next is both very interesting and is often a topic of debate. The skill level of the poker community skyrocketed. At first it was great for good players because there was dead money everywhere that could easily be taken by experienced players, but then people started to learn. Good players were forced to adapt and become better. Games eventually got back to as hard as they once were, and then they got even harder. Today we have training sites and coaches everywhere, and the poker community has evolved to a whole new level that no one thought it ever would. Some people argue that the skill level of poker one year after the 2003 main event increased by ten times than it had in the previous twenty years. To me this is what has happened with solo play in Warcraft.
I can agree with anyone that there is not a better game to watch that a Moon solo game. I personally prefer to watch team games over solo for many reasons stated above, but I can still admit watching Moon is not the same as watching any other game. There are a few other players I like to watch, but for the most part I find a lot of other solo games boring. So why is solo play so much more appealing to most people? That is as much a question I’m asking you as it is me posing it to myself. My personal thought is that the overall pool of knowledge for solo is much larger than it is for team games. In watching a solo game you are far more likely to see something impressive to you because there are so many more things players have learned to do. Team games are oftentimes very predictable or very straightforward. There are only a few top teams that do original things on a consistent basis. There are hundreds of professional solo players out there and god knows how many good amateur solo players. The number of good teams pales in comparison. This is why to me being a good team player is just as impressive as being a good soloer. Team games may not always be as flashy, but they have they have as much potential as solo games do. I think it may be harder to appreciate a good team than a good soloer, but my respect for either is that same. I can’t say for certain why the game evolved this way and maybe some of you can give your opinion on that. I personally think its a shame that all parts of the game have not evolved equally. I would love to see what a twos game would look like in a few years if half of the amount of current soloers started playing it. I respect teams like Axslav and Strifecro just as much as I do Moon, Grubby, Check, or any other good solo player.
Is Luck Real, or is it just an Illusion?
Have you ever cursed the Warcraft gods for seemingly forgetting that you exist throughout the course of a game? Don’t worry, it’s not just you. Some days we find the leprechaun smiling at us at the end of the rainbow and others we get a flat tire after getting pulled over for speeding. Luck affects us every day in almost all aspects of life. Your test grade may depend on how the teacher was feeling that day. You may have missed every single traffic light on your way home from work. Your friends may have surprised you by walking in your room while you were covertly watching “The Hills”. When luck does go our way, we feel like everything is going right and the world is at our fingertips that day. But how big a factor is luck is this game we love?
Let’s take an example of a game that undoubtedly takes some amount of luck to be successful in the short term: poker. Many of you probably play poker and I’m sure the rest of you have at least heard of it or played it at some occasion. In the short term, the results in poker can be partially attributed to luck and the rest to your skill level. Even in a dream scenario where you are a twenty to one favorite, there is still a small chance that you can lose the hand. You could even lose in this situation two or three times in a row. As you play the game more and more and these situations continue to come up, the more and more you will continue to gain in this situation. After a long period of time, it is hugely unlikely that you have lost money from this situation, which any even half decent poker player understands. The people that get angry when they get unlucky and say things like, “I will never play again, people always get lucky against me”, do not really understand the game fundamentally. Most good pokers players simply laugh and ignore people who say such things. The luck factor in poker is not all that dissimilar to the luck involved in Warcraft. The obvious flaw with my argument is that any card game is exactly fair to all parties involved. The deck of cards is impartial, and poker is inherently balanced. Warcraft is at least partially imbalanced in a few small ways, and not everyone plays the same race. Since most of the time everyone playing in a game does not begin with the exact same units, the argument I’m trying to make is not perfect. Regardless of this, the same general rules can be applied and still hold true. Over a long period of time, luck will even out between two players and the better player will win more often.
What causes luck is debatable in most circumstances. There is a simple way to determine if luck was a factor in the outcome of your game. If the situation arose because of a player’s actions, it is not luck. If it’s something out of a player’s control, it may be considered luck. Creep Jacks and hidden Expansions shouldn’t be considered luck. Think about it; if an opponent gets a “lucky” Expansion up because you didn’t Scout, it’s because you allowed it to happen. Your lack of preparation allowed them to gain an advantage over you. Creep Jacking is another reason why you may often feel costed you the game. Anyone who has watched any amount of replays realizes how far good players go to avoid being Creep Jacked. Most of the players who complain of losing because of them did not even take a small amount of the precautions needed to avoid the nasty situation.
Most people consider Item Drops, Spawn Locations, and moves like Critical Strike and Evasion to be pure luck. These only make the game different. Critical Strike simply adds 15% more Damage to the Blademaster per level. It may be unfortunate as far as when the Crtical Strikes take place, but both players know it’s possible to Crit five times in a row to kill a Hero. You may lose a single game for this reason, but you will not lose a majority of your games for this reason. Often allowing the Hero to level faster than you was your problem in the first place anyway. Spawn Locations and the chance of a Health Fountain over a Mana Fountain only change what type of game the players are playing. Maybe you’re an 80% player on cross map Lost Temple, but only a 30% player on close spawn Lost Temple. This indicates that your Spawn Location was only unlucky in the sense that you have not worked on your close spawn Lost Temple game enough. I’ve even seen Yane try to gain an advantage in a close spawn Turtle Rock game by Scouting with an Acolyte and a Ghoul to try and cancel an early Moon Well of his Night Elf opponent. As it turned out, the Night Elf opponent wasn’t next to him, so would you consider this bad luck for Yane? As far as item drops go, people completely disregard the advantages of some of the other item drops. It wasn’t until somewhat recently when the professional players started using the Wand of Mana Stealing, and then all of a sudden players stopped auto-selling the item and started using it. It doesn’t need to be said that some items are better for some heroes than others, but it’s not like the Creep dropped nothing. The item can still be sold, or perhaps the player will even figure out a way to use it to their advantage. Some items are obviously better than others, but again skill can easily make up for getting slightly unlucky. There’s a chance some maps are not really favored towards one race, but perhaps nobody has come up with a strategy with their race to take advantage of the map. If you are not prepared to play on every available map, then luck had nothing to with the outcome of your game.
A lot of your opponent’s luck is created through insufficient scouting. The better player should know what their opponent is doing throughout the entire game. Assumptions can lead to disaster. Scouting is an investment that is often overlooked. Obviously sending two Scouts out in each direction gives you information sooner, but do you really want to sacrifice the early resources for information on your opponent? It’s your choice, and there are probably advantages to both.
Players complain about their Scroll of Town Portal not going off when they double click it at the last second. Unless you’re getting variable latency issues (random delay between commands), then the player should know how much time they have in order to Teleport. Complaining that it didn’t go off didn’t change the fact that you could have tped when your hero was at half health. This is the biggest reason why people hate playing against Undead so much; the burst damage of hero nuke. Now if we were to set the game speed to ultra slow, you could actually emulate what Moon does in a LAN tournament and dodge spells every time. It’s the player’s job to gain every advantage possible. Stopping an opponent from Teleporting when they are winning the fight simply creates a battle of reaction time. Can you TP before the Death Coil hits?
Sure, a single incident can change the outcome of a game, but a single game doesn’t matter in the long run. There are cases such as in a major tournament or a league match where luck was a factor in a very important game, but there is nothing you can do about that. In that sense luck could be a big factor in that it was very important to you, but such is life. In most cases that incident was preventable, however unforeseeable it is now. As you progress as a player, preventing bad luck should become standard in all your games. All that matters is that you’re consistently a winning player. If you keep losing to the same thing and keep blaming it on bad luck, then something is wrong. As the age old saying goes, “you create your own luck”.
@ Brainplant
Yeah I understand what you’re saying and it could work, but IMO that haves more to do with Passing Range rather than Vision.
As for my suggestion…
I don’t really mean it should be restricted to 8 Directional Passing. I think it should be just as restricted as it is in PES09. Yes the Passing can go in more than 8 Directions I guess -but- the game is still based on the d-pad, which is an 8-Directional control.
We still get plenty of restrictions in PES09, in PES6, in PES5, and in every single PES title to date. Because to date, PES is based on an 8 Directional Control -that- cannot cover for the many Passing Angles that we have in the game.
This is Why Passing the ball is very Assisted by the COM. Because the COM needs to improvise at times, when the angles are more intricate than an 8 directional control can handle.
That’s the Type of restriction that I’m suggesting. If a player with average Vision tries a complicated pass, probabilities are that the COM will decide that the Pass will be mistimed or misplaced, or both. Just like in PES09.
However, if an individual with average Vision but good Passing Accuracy tries to make a Simple Pass, the simple pass will have good accuracy, and you’ll have full control over it.
Pretty much encouraging accurate passers with average Vision to keep it Simple. Like it should be. And by simple I don’t mean Obvious passes, but just enough that I don’t see Steven Gerrard slipping killer Goal-Passes on a consistent basis.
I mean, Steven Gerrard can provide the assist of course -but- he is no Riquelme or Fabregas. He doesn’t gives those defense-splitting passes day in and day out.
On the other hand, players with good a good Vision Stat should have complete control, 360ª control… a control that doesn’t needs COM-Improvising. This would give us more options when we have the ball with Riquelme, Xavi, Fabregas, Pirlo, etc, etc.
It would encourage Collective Play, which is something that PES09 doesn’t encourages.
Anyways, the important point is that Vision and Accuracy are completely different things, both are linked, but they are not the same thing.
There are a couple of ways of implementing “Vision” into the game… I just hope Konami finally adds something that differentiates Vision from Accuracy.
Amateur all I have to say is that you are a sad individual who argues over the most pointless irrelevant information. I think you need to leave the reclusive environment you are in. You seem to be on this website all the time and well it is not healthy. Go out and live your life instead of speaking rubbish every time you come onto this site. Nobody respects you. You have destroyed this ssite with your constant crap.
Amatuer!! I suggest that you set up your own forum, this one is reserved for PES, not war craft and you musings.
Dan, surely you must be sick of this chump by now?? If Konami are watching this space then i doubt the would of read past the first paragraph of Amatuers crap! Try bullet points instead Amatuer!! We’ll ask you if we don’t understand, no need to write your internal thoughts as well!!
To be fair, I don’t think posts 75 + 76 were Amateur, but then I haven’t been here long, so I wouldn’t know.
Anyhoo, @ 77… I think we can both agree that it’s uncertain if either of our ideas would work unless they’re tried out in PES 2010.
It is pretty obvious that Amateur didn’t write that rubbish.
Can any one tell me, how to installed banners in pes 6.
And just to explain a bit the banners are pictures and i dont know how to insert them into the game.
Yawn, I come here for Pro Evo news, not a long page of pointless text, this will be the last time I visit this website.
A load of twenty something year olds arguing over grammar and whether to use Maradona’s full name or not; what is the internet coming to?
Goodbye
The best place to start with Ricardo Quaresma is his recent departure from Inter to Chelsea. Many commentators in Italian Football lay the blame for Quaresma’s poor performances at the feet of the player himself, arguing that Inter were left with no option than to allow him to leave for Chelsea. But the reality of Inter’s predicament with Quaresma also lay at the feet of Mourinho, the club and the Nerazzurri faithful are who equally responsible for the player’s failings and subsequent departure.
Mourinho and Moratti: the Quaresma acquisition
From the moment Inter were rumoured to be interested in Quaresma, the writing was on the wall. When one analyses the transfer, it appears that fundamental warning signs were ignored leading to the acquisition of a player who would inevitably fail at Inter and in Serie A.
The gnawing question that has to be asked is whether Europe’s top clubs had somehow managed to overlook Quaresma or whether they had accurately assessed the player’s abilities in light of his previous stay at Barcelona and concluded that for the price Porto were demanding, he was a high risk acquisition.
Given that Europe’s top club’s send scouts to all corners of the world, it is a given that Quaresma did not sneak under their radar. The simple fact of the matter is that Quaresma was still playing in Portugal because no club thought he was up to the task of playing consistent and quality football and no club was willing to pay approximately £25 million for a player that in all likelihood would fail.
In light of the above and before the player had even played a game for his new club, the odds were stacked against him as there were question marks concerning his ability to succeed in Serie A.
When you combine those questions with his large price tag and the accompanying high expectations, as well as the fact that he did not spend pre-season with the Nerazzurri and Serie A being a difficult league for wingmen to ply their trade, then it is obvious that Quaresma undoubtedly had a very difficult task ahead of him.
But perhaps the most disappointing aspect of Quaresma’s arrival at Inter and departure to Chelsea is Mourinho’s role in the transfer and his subsequent actions as coach.
Mourinho specifically requested the player and Moratti was obliged to complete the transfer. Moratti was in no position to oppose the transfer as Mourinho had just arrived and a refusal on Moratti’s behalf would have led to an uneasy relationship between coach and club President at a very early stage in Mourinho’s Inter career.
In terms of the transfer, it is safe to say that Moratti and Inter as a club placed a great deal of faith in Mourinho. The risks in acquiring the player were obvious for all to see but there was a widespread belief that Mourinho’s experience as a coach and guidance of the player would provide an environment where Quaresma would be able to apply himself and prosper into a first team regular.
From the beginning of his tenure as Inter coach, Mourinho stated that he preferred to work with a squad of approximately 22 players and that Inter’s squad of 30 was too large.
The difficulty of reducing squad numbers in accordance with Mourinho’s wishes came from the fact that many of Inter’s players receive large salaries, ensuring they are reluctant to leave and pricing interested clubs out of the market as they cannot afford to pay large amounts on wages.
Despite repeated calls for a smaller squad, Mourinho has been compromised and it is possible that as a result of the large number of players, he has been unable to give time to helping the likes of Quaresma and other underperforming players, a chance to improve their game.
It has to be acknowledged that Mourinho would not have been able to forecast the extent to which Quaresma and Mancini would struggle in terms of form and the difficulties the team would have in adapting to a 4-3-3 formation but another contributing factor was the overall completeness of the squad.
Mourinho’s hopes of playing 4-3-3 essentially disappeared when Frank Lampard agreed a new contract with Chelsea. In the opening weeks of the season he endeavoured to apply and make the 4-3-3 work but Inter struggled as the team did not have a central midfield player that could control the game and be the team’s driving force from midfield.
As Mourinho focused on stabilising the team and securing results, he resorted to fielding a 4-3-1-2 formation which had the effect of marginalised both Quaresma and Mancini and ensuring they would only be used sparingly as substitutes.
The Nerazzurri Faithful
Quaresma is not the first player in Inter’s history to be booed and whistled by the club’s supporters, nor will he be the last, but he is perhaps the most high profile to receive such treatment.
In recent history other players that come to mind are Mikael Silvestre, Stephane Dalmat, Sergio Conciecao, Domenic Morfeo and Andres Guglielminpietro but none of these players had Quarema’s talent and more to the point, Inter did not pay £25 million to acquire their services.
Many commentators have stated that Quaresma’s move to Chelsea will ensure that the Portuguese will get more playing time and that he will be given an opportunity to gain some confidence and prove his worth. It has been suggested that if he performs well, Inter will simply call him back to the club after his loan spell at Chelsea comes to an end. But the more important question that needs to be asked is what will happen if the player fails to perform in England?
The Nerazzurri faithful failed to grasp that Quaresma was an investment and their relentless booing and whistling of the player will have affected his self-confidence and caused him to question his abilities. But who really cares? The £25 million spent to bring Quaresma to the club was a part of Moratti’s personal wealth. It does not matter if Inter are unable to offload a large salary player that no other club wants. He can simply join the likes of Crespo and Vieira as a player that will happily collect his wages without making a telling contribution to the club.
Unfortunately, the damage has already been done and there is no turning back as Quaresma has been forced into corner. When the time comes, he will have second thoughts about returning to Inter where the driving force behind his transfer, Mourinho, simply gave up on him, the club acquiesced in allowing him to leave and the supporters mercilessly turned on him without giving adequate consideration to the circumstances in which he was trying to adjust and make an impact at the club.
Quaresma was meant to be Inter’s most important summer acquisition, a player that was specifically brought to the club to ensure Mourinho had the personnel to play 4-3-3. For many, he also represented a departure from the past and a new beginning in the sense of the team adapting to a new coach and style of play under Mourinho.
Six months later, Mourinho abandoned all attempts to play 4-3-3 and Quaresma was omitted from Inter’s Champions League squad and allowed to leave on loan to Chelsea. Regardless of how he performs in England, the relationship between coach and player, club and player, and Inter’s supporters and Quaresma have all suffered irreparable damage.
To simply state that Quaresma’s failings are down to the player himself would be to ignore the factors discussed in this article. Mourinho, the club and its supporters are equally responsible for the player’s failings and should not be surprised when the player has second thoughts about returning or decides to turn his back on the club.
In the end it may not matter how Quaresma performs at Chelsea, or whether the player wants to return to Italy to play for Inter as there is a possibility that he may be included as part of a deal to bring Chelsea’s Didier Drogba to Inter.
Alternatively, the Portuguese may return to Portugal where commentators will be again be asking “Quaresma who?”
You know, Kaka is definitely not weak if we take into account his many years with AC Milan. But for the past 2 years he’s been looking fragile, and goes to ground very easily.
I hope he recovers from this, as he’s a great player, and too young to start declining at 27 years of age.
Amateur=pathetic and repetitive…FACT
It seems you only have yourself to blame for people supposedly posting as you as you are under the cover of Anonymity.
This actually is the real Amateur, and it’s funny that I have to say that… but considering the current situation.
Listen I wanted to apologize for some of the things I’ve said, although I do think many of the insults aimed at me are undeserved… I have taken a look at some of My Posts and I do not identify myself as a person with the arrogance and intensity that some of my posts reflect.
So for that I apologies to anyone who took offense by some of the things I said, or by the attitude in which I said things.
I’m not trying to “make up” for anything. It’s just that I honestly do not reflect with this whole “I’m right and you’re wrong” defensive attitude. I really do not think much of this community if I’m honest. But I do feel that I needed to apologize for my attitude.
And I do feel like I own an apology to Dan Bolas. Who has been taking some of my ideas and suggestions on board for quite some time now.
I would like to reiterate, that a lot of the “repetitive” rants where NOT posted by me. It is someone or many people copying old posts of mine, posts that I originally posted only Once.
Anyways…
As usual, Dan Bolas gave us some very interesting points this week, and it’s hard not to comment on some of the things he says.
Dan mentioned something about “for example, two players that use balance in different ways would be Drogba and Messi”.
In my opinion, the way I see it, the way this should be implemented into a Football Sim is NOT by having different Types of Balance, or by making Strength entirely related to Body type. But by simply adding a New Stat for Strength.
Therefore Drogba would be stronger than Messi when Stationary or when Dribbling Slowly.
My suggestion was, adding a couple of New Stats and at the same time replacing Old ones. The Stats that I mentioned are:
——————————————————-
* Strength: determines for how long the player can hold the ball when going at Slow speeds. It also affects on the defensive end, depending on how fast the defender and attacker are moving.
* Slow Dribble: determines accuracy when Dribbling at a Slow Pace. This attribute is directly linked with Strength.
* Posting Up: determines the ability to create space with the use of the body -when- Stationary. This attribute is directly linked with Strength.
* Shielding Technique: determines dribbling accuracy when completely stationary. This attribute complements with “posting Up” but is not the same thing -and- covers for dribbling skills such as Drag Back / Sole of the Foot dribbles. it is directly linked with Strength.
* Balance: the player is harder to push off-balance when dribbling or running at his top speed. This attribute haves little to do with strength, and also affects the defensive game.
* Top Speed Dribble: determines the accuracy when Dribbling at High Speeds. This attribute is directly linked with Balance.
* Explosiveness: determines that burst of acceleration when shifting from a Stationary stance or dribble into Movement.
* Acceleration: determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed -once- the player is Actually Running with the ball. This attribute is more important when you have the space to exploit it.
————————————————-
Those are only 4 New Stats minus One (Post Player) Special Ability, nothing out of reach.
The comparison that Dan Bolas made between Drogba and Messi…
* Drogba: would have great “Strength” and “Posting Up” ability -but- average “Slow Dribble” and average “Top Speed” dribble.
Therefore his great STRENGTH will not work when going at high speeds. Also, his Strength will not help much when Dribbling Slowly because Drogba haves average “Slow Dribble”.
If you guys take a closer look at Drogba, when he goes down to the middle of the pitch, he “Posts Up” and passes the ball almost immediately -and- does this because he is not a good dribbler and cannot dribble in the middle of the pitch.
So what Drogba uses when he is outside his sweet spot, he uses his Strength and posts up and passes the ball with his 1st or 2nd touch -and- then immediately takes off running into an open gap, looking for a return pass. You rarely ever see Drogba dribbling in the middle of the pitch.
Also, it is important to consider that Leo Messi is harder to push off-balance when at Top Speeds.
This is why I think we should have a clear and consistent difference between Balance and Strength.
* Leo Messi: would have great “Balance”, “Top Speed” dribble, “Explosiveness”, and “Slow Dribble” -but- average “Strength” and average “Posting Up” ability and average “Shielding Technique”.
The first thing to consider is that Messi doesn’t really needs to be Strong, because the Role he plays requires him to be running at high speeds for most of the time, and at high speeds Balance is more important than Strength.
It would also be worth mentioning, that because of his great “Explosiveness” he would shift from Stationary into Movement very quickly. Therefore his “Strength” looses more and more importance.
However, because Leo Messi haves average or unremarkable Strength, he will not be capable of holding and shielding the ball whilst Stationary.
And because he haves great “Slow dribble” he haves great accuracy and close control when Dribbling Slowly… he simply does NOT haves the Strength required to stay on his feet whilst Dribbling Slowly or Stationary.
So, where players like Drogba or Riquelme or Zidane can easily hold and “Shield” the ball – Leo Messi would most likely go to ground, and win a free-kick because of his good “slow dribble” stat.
A player with average “Strength” and average “Slow Dribble” will most likely go to ground, but unlike Messi, he will most likely won’t get a free-kick in his favor.
Some people would say this is not an important difference… but for Central Midfielders and Target Men it is a huge deal, and very significant.
This is something that Drogba does via the use of his power and strength. It is also something that Zinedine Zidane did via his strength and outstanding Technique.
This is Why I also mentioned a Stat for “Shielding Technique”. Because “Shielding Technique” and “Posting Up Technique” are different things.
Some players, like Drogba and Fernando Torres are very good at “Posting Up” and using their body and strength to create space for themselves.
On the other hand, players like Riquelme and Zidane use their Dribbling Skills + their Strength to dribble and effectively “Shield” the ball whilst completely Stationary. Which is an unusual gift.
Anyways… as for Strength vs Balance.
I think an individual Stat for Strength is needed. Because some players (like Drogba, Zidane, Riquelme) are harder to push off-balance when Stationary or Dribbling Slowly.
But at the same time, other individuals (Leo Messi, George Best) are harder to push off-balance when going at Higher Speeds.
And again, we also have average size and even small players like: Franco Baresi, Pele, Roy Keane, Romario, Edgar Davids, Carlos Valderrama, Carles Puyol, Arshavin, Tevez, and then some…
This players are not large by any means, and yet they are very tough and hard to push off-balance. They have great Strength and it is Evident.
In my opinion, Balance is too vague and inaccurate in Pro Evolution… it covers for too many different features of the game.
I don’t think Strength should be entirely related to body type. It would be very inaccurate and vague in my opinion. Just like the Balance and Technique Stats.
I also have to comment on other Point Dan mentioned.
Dan Bolas – “Finally, in my opinion adding stats for tricks and skills would be a double edged sword. I feel every player should be able to do a basic range of skills, for example the scissors step over and the shot fake”
I definitely agree that every player should have a set of “basic range of skills”. However, we must also consider that the things that differentiate great dribblers from other great dribblers are the Type of dribbles they use and How they do them.
For example, Body Feints are used by everybody, it’s natural and it’s effective. But if you compare Cristiano Ronaldo’s Body Feints -with- Leo Messi’s Body Feints… they are completely different type of dribblers.
Cristiano Ronaldo’s type of body feints are more comparable with Garrincha. On the other hand, Leo Messi’s less flashy style of body feints are more similar to George Best.
Leo Messi’s approach is more down to business and less “showboating”. On the other, Cristiano Ronaldo is less down to business and more showboating.
So my point is that:
* Someone mentions Cristiano Ronaldo or Luis Figo – the first thing that comes to mind are Step Overs.
* Someone mentions Zinedine Zidane – the first thing that comes to mind are Roulettes.
* Someone mentions Riquelme – the first thing that comes to mind are his South American Sole of the Foot dribbles.
* Someone mentions Leo Messi – Cutting the Ball and Body Feints, minimalistic dribbling.
When you compare a great dribbler with another great dribbler the thing that sets them apart are the Approach and the Tricks they use the most.
Perhaps some are faster and more agile than others, and some are more Elegant than others…. but the thing that sets them apart are the Type of dribbles they use and How they do them.
If the in-game Leo Messi starts doing Roulettes and Step Overs, that is not true to life -and- it really wouldn’t feel like Leo Messi.
Perhaps Leo Messi could do the basic Step Over dribble -but- not the Flamboyant-Showboating (Garrincha-esque) Step Overs that Cristiano Ronaldo consistently uses.
It is an essential part of Individuality and Identity. And it could easily be implemented by the use of some New Special Abilities, or Stats.
This is all I have to say on this week’s article, and I apologize to anyone who takes offense by the repetitive nature of this post.
I hope PES 2010 will be what we deserved after 2 years of disappointing efforts.
In addition to My last Post I have added Some important Dribbling Methods which could be used in Pro Evo 2010.
For my part, I don’t see why the Right Analogue should be used for Dribbling Tricks.
I mean, it can be fun for awhile… I won’t deny that whenever I play FIFA09 I do enjoy having a laugh with the Right Stick -but- after hours of play, it just feels unnecessary and over-worked… as well as unrealistic and unresponsive.
Having my Right Thumb shifting from the 4 Key buttons to the Right Stick continuously… after hours of playing it, it just feels too over-worked.
In my opinion, Shoulder buttons + the LEFT Stick are much more intuitive and responsive controls.
With the Shoulder buttons I just Tap L1 + maneuver with the LEFT Stick -and- my Right Thumb always stays put in the Key buttons, which makes for more Intuitive and Responsive Play.
Or I just Tap or Hold the R2 button + maneuver with the LEFT Stick -and- my Right Thumb stays put in the Key Buttons… which again, makes for more intuitive and responsive play.
In Pro Evo the Trick that I use the most is the “Fake Shot”. I don’t use it excessively, because I don’t like to exploit it that much -but- I do find it the most effective and intuitive trick in the game.
And it’s done by Tapping Two Different buttons in quick succession + the LEFT Stick for direction.
This means that your Right Thumb stays put in the Key buttons, which makes it a more Intuitive and effective control -because- you can pull off the “fake shot” and then quickly follow it up by shooting.
The fact that your Right Thumb stays put in the key buttons -makes- the transition form Dribbling to Shooting the ball that bit faster. Which is always important because Timing is essential in Football, and chances are usually split-second decisions.
So this is Why I think Konami should elaborate on the “fake shot” dribble -and- Holding the L1 button + Tapping One of the 4 Key Buttons is pretty much the same concept as the “fake shot”. And the L1 button could easily Complement with the R2 button and R1 button.
————————————————————-
* Holding L1 + Left Stick for Direction = Drag Back, Roulette, Flicking the Ball…
* Double Tapping L1 = Step Over.
* Holding L1 + Tapping One of the 4 Key buttons + Left Stick for directions = countless of dribbling possibilities.
————————————————————-
My opinion is that the L1 button is being wasted Solely on Step Overs… and I think the L1 button could easily take care of many different types of dribbling tricks -and- could easily complement with the R2 button and R1 button.
* Something I would like to have and feel that PES is lacking, is a Button for “setting up” different Dribbling Tricks.
For example, if you are using Zinedine Zidane, by Tapping the L1 button + directing the Left Stick to the Left: Zidane would pass the ball to his Left Foot and will protect the ball with his Right Foot. This will encourage the opponent on Zidane’s Left to “bite” into the challenge.
By doing that you would “set up” the perfect opportunity to pull off a Roulette Dribble.
So, if the Roulette Dribble is fixed to the (x) button… this would mean that you Tap the L1 button + direct to the Left via the Left Stick: Zidane passes the ball to his Left Foot, therefore encouraging an opponent into “biting” and at the same time “setting up” the perfect situation for a Roulette.
After doing that, if the opponent bites into it -you- just Hold L1 + Tap the (x) button + direct it with the Left Stick: Zidane does the Roulette in the desired direction.
* Setting Up dribbling moves haves a lot do with the Position of your Body in relation to the ball -which- is something that is directly linked with the Technique and Shielding ability of each individual, and something we cannot do (consciously decide) in any Pro Evo to date. I think it could easily be implemented into the L1 button, and it could complement with the R2 dribble.
A button for “setting up” different dribbling opportunities would make one-on-one play that bit more tactical from both an Attacker’s point of view -and- a Defender’s point of view. Body Feints are also a popular and effective tool for creating opportunities.
So perhaps by Tapping or Holding L1 + Tapping the (o) button + Directing with the Left Stick -the- player will do a “Body feint” in the desired direction.
Anyways…
I think Dribbling Tricks should be all about Shoulder Buttons + LEFT Stick maneuvering. The Right Stick can always work for a couple of Advanced Dribbling moves -or- other purposes.
Pass Accuracy: It covers for accuracy and haves little to do with “Vision”.
Pass Speed: It covers for the speed of the pass, making it harder to intercept -but- it haves little to do with Vision.
Those many misplaced or mistimed passes that take place in PES09. Do we have any control over that?? No we don’t, regardless of the actual “passing angles” the game is still based on the d-pad which can only go in 8 directions.
Therefore the COM needs to improvise in many occasions… deciding if a Pass should go right where you want it to, or if it will be ridiculously misplaced and mistimed.
This is Why PES is so COM-Assisted. Because the variation of passing angles is endless -and- yet, the game is still based on the d-pad. And the d-pad can only go in 8 Directions… do the math.
So How can Konami simulate something as specific as Vision??
It is very easy to notice all the Passing Angles from The Wide View Perspective. However, it is a completely different thing to be aware of those passing angles when you are actually playing on the pitch… it is a skill, and not everyone haves that sense of Awareness FOR Passing.
The way I see it, the only way of “Simulating” this would be by differentiating the Range of Passing Freedom between players.
Poor Vision – 8 Directional Passing. (similar to PES09 passing, very restrictive and assisted by the COM)
Average Vision – 16 Directional Passing. (similar to PES6 passing, although highly assisted by the COM, it still isn’t as restrictive as the Next Gen Passing)
Great Vision – 360ª Passing. (similar to FIFA09 passing, more control and accuracy over the trajectory of the ball)
So that Individuals like Riquelme, Fabregas, Xavi, Pirlo, etc, etc. have complete 360ª freedom when Passing the ball, giving us full control over Passing -instead- of depending on the whims of a COM.
On the other hand, individuals with Average Vision should not have Full Control over the trajectory and pace of the pass. It doesn’t haves to be 8 Directional or 12 Directional… but it should be highly Assisted by the COM. Just like it has always been.
The Passing Accuracy Stat would remain intact as accuracy is accuracy. But the Vision Stat will determine the range of Freedom and control in terms of Passing Directions. A player with average “Vision” but good “Passing Accuracy” will give simple but accurate passes, restrictive but accurate.
This would establish some important differences between players like Riquelme and players like Steven Gerrard, players like Fabregas and players like Ballack, etc, etc. Accuracy and Vision are different things.
This would encourage Collective Play, which is essential in Football, it’s that factor that makes it all meaningful. If you want to have complete control over your passing you go for someone like Xavi or Riquelme. We cannot have full control and freedom with every individual in the game.
Like I said before, It is very easy to notice all the Passing Angles from The Wide View Perspective -but- it is a completely different thing to notice those passing angles when you’re actually On the pitch. Therefore it would be ridiculous if every player haves the same range of Passing Freedom. Because anyone can see all the gaps from Wide View Perspective.
pesssssssss
pes 2009 is **** its so robotic and easy you can literally run past every palyer with your kepper as for the players they all feel the same except for messi this is why fifa 09 is a better game its more authetic.
download the PES 3 demo.It’s 220 mb only.That will help you understand what pes2010 gameplay should be…
Jesus f*cking christ, i come on here the last few months and Amateur’s post just get longer and longer and more frequent. No offence to the guy, i’m sure he’s a nice enough bloke, i just dont want to have to wade through his 100,000 word essays to get to a decent post that i’ll actually read.
This site seems to be going increasingly downhill, the advertisements are p*ssing me off too, it was a mission just to open this article.
I cannot contemplate how sad of a life Amateur must lead.
Sad loser who has nothing better to do than dominate every article just so he can get his opinion heard.
I am all for debate but Amateur takes the piss every time.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH EVERY ONE, PES 6 IS STILL THE BEST PRO EVO
GAME TO DATE. NOW CAN ANY ONE JUST GIVE SOME DETAIL INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO INSTALLED BANNERS.
PLEASE
THANK YOU.
Amateur
This quote is from a footballer called Robert Dennis Blanchflower – He was the captain of one of the most popular teams of the 1960’s. In the light of your posts regarding shielding the ball I wonder what your opinion would be of his beliefs;
“The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.”
This site is a poor shadow of its former self now.
It’s just centered around Amateur.
You go on about how we need log-in’s etc but the real problem is him.
We didn’t have this problem until he started posting his repetitive, arrogant posts.
He has no concept of argument, gets aggressively defensive when you tell him to change the record and instead thinks whatever he types is FACT.
Amateur, you are a bellend, FACT.
I, like many others I assume, are sick of coming here just to read a post he has posted every week for the past 2 months!!
Whenever I read replies here it’s never any news about PES or decent conversations, it’s always the same **** about stats, PES 5 and Riquelme from the same stupid ****.
============
“I’d like to express my warm **** YOU and die in hell towards you and many other community members that don’t have anything better to say.”
============
Yea really mature. Is this what we want on this site?
I have been trying to post for days now but every single one has been deleted by Dan or whoever, yet you are letting him talk to me and other like this?
Can’t you see Amateur is the cancer that will slowly kill this site?
Sort it out or I can see a lot of people leaving very fast.
Amateur out!!!
@ 5beckenbauer, post 99
I have never directed a Word to You. Fact is that I did not even knew who you where prior to this week. And yet for some reason, I find out that you hate me on One of your Posts.
You did not have to reply to me, nobody obliged you to reply to me. You could simply ignore my posts and speak with whomever you want to communicate.
3 posts exclusively aimed at me. And you somehow expect me NOT to reply back?? You are a Coward, I have never said anything to you, and yet you felt the need to have a go at me… because my Opinion it’s too much to bare.
And then you say that I’m the Repetitive One?? Hypocrisy at its finest.
I am very immature and ignorant, and I have a lot of growing up to do as I’m only 23 years old. But at least I’m not the one Judging and Insulting, and making unfounded assumptions.
I’m not interested in that. I just give my opinion, you can agree or disagree with it, or simply Ignore it -but- Insults are Pointless, and have nothing to do with PES.
But whatever, somehow I am “pathetic and immature” for giving my Opinion on PES related topics. But YOU on the other hand, You are above immaturity aren’t you??
I mean, you Insult me, Time and time again… but you somehow do NOT think of yourself as Repetitive, Pathetic, or Immature.
Perhaps you should do a bit of self-critic and get things in perspective.
@ post 99
I totally agree with you man, Amateur’s arrogant posts are ruining this site. I come onto this site to have a good PES debate and for news of PES 2010 but Amateur hogs the site with his delirious drivel.
The real problem remains is that Amateur does not realise that he is doing anything wrong. Making posts like “You can die in a fire for all I care” are hurtful and distasteful.
Amateur OUT!
Yeah, and Posts 102 and 103 are not the same person… you are not fooling me.
You can die in fire for all I care?? What a weird expression, I had not heard nor read such a thing in my life.
Amateur OUT!! – very mature, you must feel very good about yourself. Nowadays I get to Laugh every time I visit PESGaming. keep it up.
@ 104
I only posted 103 Amateur. I was referring to post 102 with the “fire” quote. All I am doing is showing concern. You do not have to have such an aggressive response. I am not interested in starting a debate with you. Just my opinion.
Look Just Admit you Posted both 102 and 103. I come on here To express My Views on the Future of PES And the importance of New stats. You Can Die, I Don’t Care.
It’s people like You with Their Pointless Crap and Criticism of Me that Prevents progress on this Site.
Dan and Dougie really must Not care about this site anymore.
I’m having lots of fun imagining you guys at your desks…………it passes the time till 2010 news….
@ lilbalar
Well, your concern should not be aimed at Amateur because Amateur is not the one causing all this mess. It’s the people who are copying him who are ruining this site.
And judging by many of the responses and by the Symmetry of it all, I get the impression that a few guys are posting under different names. Probably the same guys (like post 102 and 106) who have actually taken the time to both Pose as Amateur, and copy Old Posts of Amateur.
Here is a short summary of all the Amateur Posts that where NOT Posted by the ‘real’ Amateur:
* Post 6
* Post 18
* Post 36
* Post 53
* Post 75
* Post 76
* Post 88
* Post 89
* Post 102
* Post 106
I am also stating my Opinion, and some people are lambasting me because of it…
I think it is unfair that so many people (or perhaps just a couple of guys posting under different identities) are insulting me over things that I haven’t even done.
By posting under different names Amateur creates confusion and controversy.
Amateur is not stating his opinion. He is telling us opinion as fact and reiterates his stupid ideas of new stats on every occasion he sees fit. Some of his points may be valid, but his constant repetition and arrogance is his problem and well contributes to the poor state of affairs of this site.
The only way he can move on is if he stands up and bes a man and admits his wrongdoings.
I don’t think Amateur is the only one posting under different names, but until there is a login system there is no way of telling who is who, so everybody needs to chill and not take it so seriously- I’m sure, with the number of ‘false’ names given here, that somebody has already had an argument with themselves, lol!!
It is fun to watch, just hope nobody bursts a blood vessle….
It is Not fun to Watch Andrew. It is extremely Ridiculous that in the 21st century logins cannot Be implemented. This is why I am posting under anonymity again.
Anyway in relation to The passing game.
If you want to give a Slow but Placed Pass, you cannot control that… it is basically out of your hands. With a Gauge for Passing Speed everything would change.
But Passing Speed and Passing Accuracy are different things. So I think that with a Passing Speed Gauge, Konami will have to replace the one-dimensional “Passing Speed” Stats. Here is my suggestion in this respect:
* Short Ground Pass – accuracy
* Long Ground Pass – accuracy
* Short lofted Pass – accuracy
* Long Lofted Pass – accuracy
* Ground Pass Technique: the player haves more accurate features for measuring the Pace/Speed on a Ground Pass.
* Lofted Pass Technique: the player haves more accurate features for measuring the Pace/Speed on a Lofted Pass.
* Vision – more control and less Com Assistance in terms of Passing Directions, or “misplacing” the ball.
Post 108 is not Amateur, again.
Some people are so focused on Amateur that they take the time to actually go over to the WENB and PESGaming Forumns -and- copy and paste anything Amateur has said in here.
It was funny at 1st -but- now it’s starting to become offensive. We get it already.
Maybe it was not Amateur because it does not say it is him.
We cannot dignify the Amateur and non Amateur posts if he keeps changing his user name!
Amateur the real one is a pathetic loser, and I think most users realize that by now with the nature of his posts.
@ Prick, post 100
“3 posts exclusively aimed at me. And you somehow expect me NOT to reply back??”
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How did I expect you NOT to reply? I obviously expect you to reply if my post is aimed at you. Are you really this stupid?
Your opinion isn’t too much to bear at all. Is that you just being arrogant again? They are simply stupid responses that you just copy and paste when no-one wants to hear it every single week.
“I am very immature and ignorant, and I have a lot of growing up to do as I’m only 23 years old.”
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You are blaming your immaturity on being only 23? Fair enough if you were 16 or at least 18 but not 23 christ. You could have a family, house, decent car, good job, etc but instead you sit in all day coping and pasting your pathetic responses on a video game website.
“But at least I’m not the one Judging and Insulting, and making unfounded assumptions.”
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As you said, hypocrisy at it’s finest.
For this site to move on we have to get rid of this guy.
All the trolls came out from DD, why not now for this?
@ 5beckenbauer -aka- douchebag
Are you really that retarded??
Son, in what WORLD do you live in?? The world is full of 40 year olds who have the mental capacity of an 18 year old. The world is full of Racist people… people who are ready to kill for their Religion, or just for the color of your skin. You tell me is this Civilized?? Is this anything mature?
And yes, most certainly, at 23 years of age you are still very young and still got a lot to learn. Something I’m fully aware of.
But judging by your responses, you somehow think your **** doesn’t stinks. You somehow are above it… Whatever dude. Keep it up and have it your way. Your Posts speak for themselves.
Oh and in case you did not know this, Copy and Pasting 3 or 4 responses per day -does- NOT takes any time at all. I can do that in less than 5 minutes.
And trust me, 5 minutes does not deprives me of having a Family.
5beckenbauer – You are blaming your immaturity on being only 23? Fair enough if you were 16 or at least 18 but not 23 christ. You could have a family, house, decent car, good job, etc but instead you sit in all day coping and pasting your pathetic responses on a video game website.
So I must have a Family and a Decent Car?? Are you talking about yourself here?
So you take the time off your day to simply Insult Amateur again, and you somehow do not come off as immature or ignorant. Have you not realized yet that Most of the Amateur Posts are not really Amateur??
PESGaming should ban your posts on the grounds of them being rubbish and completely pointless.
@ 5beckenbauer -aka- douchebag
^Good one?
Amateur – posting under Anonymous pretending not to be you is so pathetic. Take you balls out your mum’s purse and stop acting like such a gimp.
Your last 2 posts (113&114) don’t even make sense.
I didn’t say you SHOULD have a family, car etc. I said you COULD. As in it’s pathetic how immature you still are at 23 years of age.
“Son, in what WORLD do you live in?? The world is full of 40 year olds who have the mental capacity of an 18 year old. The world is full of Racist people… people who are ready to kill for their Religion, or just for the color of your skin. You tell me is this Civilized?? Is this anything mature?”
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I’m not talking about anyone else’s immaturity and at what point did I tell you anything was civilized? The fact that you use other people in the world as an excuse for you being immature and ignorant makes you a bigger loser.
If you admit copy and pasting the same responses every single day then please just answer – why do you do it?
We obviously read them in last weeks article so why subject us to your exact same 1,000 word essays again and again?
PESGaming should ban your posts after you have posted it for the 20th time.
I’m sure if there was a vote we would have you banned completely.
That’s because you’re too dumb to understand it. Just like you are too dumb to write anything relevant.
But Whatever… I am a loser, I have no life, and I am pathetic and immature.
I tell you what you wanted to hear – can you STFU now. And perhaps talk about something PES related, maybe?? Instead of making unfounded assumptions that have nothing to do with PES.
And by the way, you do NOT know me as a person, you don’t know what the **** I’ve been through. So please reserve that type of comments for your friends.
I don’t need to know you as a person to realise how much of a **** you are.
And please stop with the teasing sob story about your ‘tough’ wee life, your nothing but an attention whore.
Everyone hates you amateur, go away
@ 5beckenbauer
What a waste of time you are… At this point I have just decided to stop trying to “communicate” with you as you are clearly just a KID. Or a Grown Up with a Kid’s Mentality.
Your Posts speak for themselves. I don’t see how anyone should respect you when you have nothing better to say.
And by the way, do you not realize that the more you talk like that -the- more I will Post?? Just for the sake of it.
Haha you are such a retard.
Second last post you say you are going to stop talking to me. That lasted 4 minutes!
I don’t mind if you talk, the more you do so the more people will get sick of you, eventually ending up with you being forced to finally leave.
What happened to you actually leaving like you’ve promised us on more than one occasion?
@ 5beckenbauer -aka- retarded person
Attention whore is it? Whatever you say, keep it up, it must feel good.
The FACT that you are responding to anything now is pathetic. FACT