Interfering With Play – Tuesday 2nd February 2010
Posted by Dan Bolas in Interfering With Play on Tue 02 Feb
Welcome to this week’s Interfering With Play. Before even begin this week, I would like to once again reiterate a pretty crucial point. Personally, I receive no reward, be it financial or any other kind, for writing and contributing to PESGaming.com. Some people seem to think that due to the number of sponsors on this site, I am rolling in the money, which is far from the truth. One of the reasons I can be so brazen and open about my views regarding PES is that I don’t have anyone to answer to, no pay packet to keep rolling and no perks for doing what I do. I simply do it for the love of the game. I know there are many other people out there who contribute to this site in a variety of forms in exactly the same boat, and therefore understand the reason I do it for free, but if PESGaming.com is making money off sponsors or on site adverts, I am not seeing a single penny of it, and the powers that be have it. As I said, I do this site for enjoyment, and nothing more. If you like my posts, or have something to say about something you have read, you get involved for free too; I believe this is how a fan based community should work! Hopefully, that clears up some of the confusion out there. With that said, lets crack on with this week’s Interfering With Play.
“Sometimes, I Feel, Your Not, Listening”
Some absolutely amazing posts over the past seven days, pretty much outlining everything I have been looking to discuss over the next few months. I don’t really tend to mention just how good some of the ideas are by people on this site, but there are some genuinely impressive and implement able ideas in there, it is just making sure that these are the ones Konami hear, amidst all the moaning, criticism and backwards thinking by people. However, I do believe there is one issue that is the real road block between us, as a community site, and directly influencing the majority of aspects of the PES franchise.
I am not an expect in Japanese business, but I believe that the culture in the Eastern business world tends to rely less on market research of Westerners, and more on their own personal whims, almost turning certain companies into inward thinking shells. What I basically mean by this, is that Japanese companies in general seem to not want to take on board advice from their fans, and no more is this the case than with Konami. The European representative from Konami is a genuinely good guy, and our contact has always been excellent with us, yet you feel that the powers that be, above his head sometimes don’t take these suggestions as seriously as they should do, which is ridiculous when you take into account some of the more popular ideas that have been implemented into the franchise have been spoken about on this site for years. Custom play lists, multiple chants, upload able images for edit mode, downloadable boot packs, transfer updates and even features such as Community Mode and Become A Legend were all discussed on this site months or even years prior to Konami including them in PES, and pretty much all have been met with praise and appreciation.
When I discuss this particular aspect, I look more to features than game play itself, an issue that will be discussed in great deal over future weeks, but features such as a training camp, scenario modes, indoor or 7 a side games and custom managers, refs and stadiums would all be easily implement able into the existing system, and yet add a new dimension to the game. Yet for the past few years, the Japanese business culture has seen ignorance at times stand in the way of progress.
I can not stress enough that this is not because of myself or Double D, or the EU side of Konami’s PR, who are always improving and looking for new ways to get involved, but it is the culture of Konami itself, and unless a culture evolves, it ultimately dies out. Konami have a huge opportunity here to get ahead of the game, hit the Western world for feedback and actually use it. I just genuinely hope they do this time.
“Here’s, My, Bright, Idea”
So following the excellent feedback mentioned above, I have decided to employ the following tactic. Each fortnight, I will open a new topic for debate, ranging from AI to Graphics to Features to the dreaded Online, and leave you guys to rule the roost on that topic. I will also include a chat room which myself and Double D will regularly attend over the course of a week, to get your ideas ‘face to face’ in real time. This chat room will appear, all being well, on the regular site as if it were a post, and have opening times whereby you can meet and chat with other PES gamers.
By doing this, I hope to achieve a couple of things. Firstly, by speaking to myself or Double D directly, we can get the exact issue you are trying to raise, and not miss out on anything. It will also act as an opportunity to bounce ideas off other PES fans, and maybe pick up on something you have missed or overlooked. The opportunity to comment and e-mail will still be there, but by adding a third option, it may appeal to those people who like a slightly more human touch! The first topic will be announced later this week!
“The Real Thing”
The final one from me this week and one that has been building up for a while. Following a couple of excellent posts by regular contributor ‘Amateur’ I have been asking myself a little more about how realistic does football gaming need to be, and more importantly, how more realistic is it going to get. I may use a couple of quotes in the following topic, and I apologies for not sourcing the original contributors, however I feel it is better to just let this piece flow a little bit more. I am also going to discuss the topic regarding the PS3, X Box 360 and PC generation, and not look into the future of 3D gaming or motion sensing that may occur in years to come.
It has been a claim by some that FIFA 10 is a more realistic gaming offering that PES, a statement I am less than convinced by. On one hand, I have logged some hours on FIFA 10 and therefore can quote that in my opinion, FIFA plays more like a video game and less like a game of football, yet I have not played for the same number of hours as I have on PES, so my judgement can only by my own an not a recommendation. However, for me, it is important that football gaming still maintains an aspect of exactly that, and that the game can offer a variety of challenges and doesn’t become predictable or boring. If we take away the aspect of difficulty levels for a second, the idea of a perfect football game would seem the AI play the game using different styles in relation to the team it is controlling. PES currently sees the AI play a lot of nice attacking football passing in the middle third, but no real penetration in and around the penalty box. This is very realistic when your playing Arsenal or Chelsea, but when Bolton are keeping the ball for minute long spells at a time, you have to question the realism. Playing styles are definitely a must if we are going to talk about realism.
A second issue regards time. I know people have said that games should last longer, maybe have a minimum of 10 minutes per half, but simply this is an option that is going to isolate as many gamers as it will draw in. I know for a fact there are gamers out there that will end up playing less games of PES, simply because they haven’t the time. By the same token, simply adding to the match duration alone won’t alter the way the AI or a gamer will play, and that the option for longer or shorter matches shouldn’t play too much of a deal on the game itself. However, if you alter the physical game speed of the players, and the actual size of the pitches, then you may start to have a situation whereby a longer time frame would actually be required, as to travel with the ball.
A third issue would be the ball physics. In my opinion, PES had the best ball physics for years, going back to the Playstation one days of random deflections and spin. However, since its inception onto PS3 and 360, the physics do seem to have suffered some what, particularly when it comes to dribbling and in block tackle situations. It is crucial to remember that the ball in the most important part of football, and that Konami or whoever should be focussing on making that roll, bounce and look as realistic as possible, and definitely not be as oversized as the FIFA in game ball.
But my biggest issue of all is how the gamer is made to experience when playing a football game. In the past, we have had complaints the game is ‘cheating’ or becoming ‘unbeatable’ at certain points. However, this is something that needs to be examined more closely. Gamers may have to start getting used to spending long periods of a game defending as opposed to always attacking, and here in lies the key to creating realism. I have asked before, but how many times do you sit back and let your opponents attack you when playing PES? Or how many times do you just smash the ball anywhere when defending? Most people I know who play the game will always try to dribble the ball or pass the ball out of defence. Most will start pressing as soon as they lose the ball, and the only goals they concede are when they have simply ran out of players to press with.
This is not me being over the top, as I am guilty of it too. I rarely hit the ball long when defending to allow my team to regroup, and I rarely lose possession in my own box when being defending by simply passing it around. To increase realism, attacking teams need to make sure that if you give them half a chance, they make you pay. The risk vs. reward ratio of messing around in your own area needs to be much greater, and you would be much wiser just to hook the ball clear, put it out for a throw in and allow yourselves to regroup. This can be taken further to give away free kicks to slow down the play, or even pick up tactical yellow cards.
To improve the realism of PES, defending has to become as equal a part of the game as attacking, and not just something you do in-between attacks. It was said recently that football is like a game of chess. If you’re watching a top side working the play from one side to another, this is a statement I can agree with. The tactical movements of playing in and out, diagonal and square to create space. However, in realism, most football teams play a direct style of the game. They look for their target players early and build attacks from there. They try and win free kicks and hit the ball into the area. It’s kind of like throwing all your chess pieces at the king, and is as much a part of football as the slick passing game. And irrelevant of whether you’re a smooth passing team or a dogged long ball mechanical team, you all have to spend periods of a game defending, and therefore have to clear your lines to wait for the next attack.
That’s my two penny’s worth on the issue. If we talk about improving realism of PES, before we look at ways of improving the passing system or even new tricks and turns, the issue to address is making the game a more defensive one first of all. I don’t want to be playing out a 0-0 draw every match, but if I am Burnley and I get a 0-0 against Liverpool, I want to feel like I have earned it, not that I have just not managed to score myself following tens of shots on goal. I hope what I am trying to say makes sense, because as soon as you establish a solid defensive base, you can start looking forward to playing different styles, be that having a deep sitting playmaker who comes off the defence to receive the ball, or a centre forward who plays as an out and out target man, or overlapping full backs who provide width to a narrow midfield. Your views on this issue would be greatly appreciated, as at the moment, the defensive part of the game is far too mechanical and one route, which makes the realism levels drop.
That’s your lot for this week. A fair bit to mull over and I haven’t even mentioned my crushing cup semi-final defeat to Liverpool. interferingwithplay@hotmail.co.uk is the place to direct your e-mails to, or just leave a comment as so many people have been doing over the past few weeks. The suggestions from previous PES’ have been logged, and will make interesting reading in future weeks when it comes to compiling some sort of list. And if Konami are reading this and want to take a punt, I have no problems flying first class to Japan and working on some ideas to make PES 2011 the best ever!
Thanks for Reading
1st… Always wanted 2 do that.
Improving defending and/or attacking would not make much difference at the stage PES is today. Gameplaywise, what takes away most from the game’s realism is the amount of space each player has within the pitch. It’s not enough. Take two steps in any direction and you’ll run into another player, whereas in the real world of football there is a greater gap between players and also more time to choose what to do with the ball, specially in the CENTER OF THE PITCH. I don’t know if this could be achieved with the actual size of the virtual pitch, but I do know that a greater space would open up a world of possibilities as far as gameplay goes, player’s movements off the ball would have much more importance and 360 movement would be more noticeable. PES should become more a passing game than a dribbling game. This year they tried to make dribbling harder BUT they did not work on passing. The game feels too hermetic. Ooooppppeeeennn iiittt uuupppp maaaaan! Take a look at a real game. ‘Could you see then what I see now?’
1.I agree with the ball physics in PES2010,it seems the ball look much heavier when the goalkeeper kick the balls in the air & even if you use Drogba or Anelka on topform when shooting outside penalty box.
2. defending should be upgraded because players on the midfields & defenders sometimes harder to steal the ball from the opposite team, if you want to get the ball you need to be in front of the player & hard to steal when you are ’sitting’ next to the player.
In reality the ball is much lighter & there is varieties of styles in defending, including stealing from behind.
You obviously dont watch or play real football. You never have lots of time on the ball – you are making out like you want it to be easy to win. Football (particularly in the Premiership) is fast, hard and uncompromising. I bet you complain when people tackle you and threaten to take the ball home
pes2010updates
Something i want to point out and i noticed it in the training mode last night is the terrible sound FX when theres no croud noise.When players collide or are up against each other it sounds like two tyres rubbing together and is mostly out of sync and this also happens on other noises where theres a delay or the sound is just plain terrible.This for me for a next gen product is just plain sloppy and is just one of the many small areas in pes2010 that demonstrate how unfinished pes2010 is.
While i do have a lot of respect for this site and column i am starting to question peoples judgement when it comes to fifa10 which in the tele cam is beautifall and very fluid and allows you to play a slick passing game or the long game and exhibit a style of play you talk about DB one that pes has yet to match and one that we all crave under the pes banner.
Is there really that big a difference between pes and fifa now they both have a similiar viewpoint and the overall style of the play is similiar the differences being one has stunning crisp animation which benefits the gameplay and a precise passing and shooting system with clever consistent ai while the other pes2010 feels glitchy imprecise and very unfinished full of small niggles and frustrations that maybe with a few months more development might have been eradicated making pes2010 feel like more of a full glass rather then one thats half empty.
While theres certainly something good in pes2010 theres also a lot wrong and it feels and presents a game that is now well behind the technology curve and die hard pes fans pretending fifa10 is not a state of the art representation of football are clearly kidding themselves because theres a attention to detail in fifa10 that konami themselves need to take a look at.
Me i hated fifa10 at first staying loyal to pes2010 and denieing myself a taste of something better.Now going back to pes2010 the faults and niggles are so glaring and the variety of play so limiting a struggle to see how konami are going to catch up and get pes to level fifa10 now is.
Is the ball really that oversized in fifa10 and is the shooting really that floatie?i disagree as the ball in pes2010 is like a heavy cannonball and has no visible resistance to the air and with the exception of crosses doesnt curl or arc.
I also wanted to point out that on the world class setting in fifa10 i have to earn the right to get back in the game if im a goal or two down the cpu doesnt give me a invisible leg up as the scripting in pes2010 is not there.Also when i defend in fifa10 i have total control of my back four and each individual player and can go toe to toe with the opposition forwards and snuff them out its not random like pes2010 which just gives you blocks of players and no defensive control when your back four is in the box with tackling feeling like pot luck and very random.These are things that make a huge difference and need to be looked at by konami.
@ Dopecoil, Post 6 and 7
Dude, FIFA10 is not a “state of the art representation of football”.
Please, do try a little harder not to mistake your opinion for a fact. You do it quite consistently, and it comes off as arrogant in a bad way.
Between FIFA10 and PES10 -wich- game would be better if both had great animations?
Perhaps FIFA is the better game at the moment, but it still is far away from everything you make it out to be. And yes the ball is “floaty” like many people have noted, and yes the play is repetitive and midfield-battles are non-existent.
It is impossible to have a realistic football simulation without proper midfield battles.
As for the “total control” that you mentioned… I have also noticed the level of control when defending, but unlike you, I feel this pretty much destroys any credibility the game haves.
Whenever I play FIFA10 I find it ridiculously monotonous on the defensive end, I pretty much destroy anyone by simply holding the R2 button and running after the player with the ball.
When you have the type of control that FIFA10 offers, this destroys all the credibility of the “simulation”.
The defensive abilities and approaches of each individual need to be respected -otherwise- defending will remian the same monotonous procedure that it currently is.
Instead of simply running after the player with possesion, or instead of simply covering the space that you know the opponent will use because it’s so painfully OBVIOUS…
The game needs a revolution in off-the-ball play, the off the ball play when in possession of the ball needs massive improvements.
Defensive play also needs equally massive improvements, it is only logical -BUT- it will be absolutely necessary to improve attacking off the ball play before even thinking about the defensive end.
In terms of defending, I do find FIFA10 a bit more enjoyable than PES10 because I feel like I have total control -but- I think both games are below mediocre in terms of off the ball play both when attacking and defending.
Defensive play is basically anticipating your oponent. In real-life, if you are a defensive player and your opponenet out-smarted you, for example: he managed to place himself behind you without you noticing it — you will not know he is behind you.
The only way of knowing an opponent is behind you, would be via communication; one of your team-mates (via visual contact of the situation) would have to alert you of the situation.
And even if you do know that your opponent is behind you, you already lost the battle as there is little you can do from such a situation. The important thing is to prevent this from happening.
So on paper, we should read these moves before they happen. But the problem is that currently this requires no skills because “reading” the game is only a matter of noticing the obvious.
I already know what will happen before it happens, but there is little I can do about it. And so the game is one dimensional for both parties, and what we consider “skill” or “total control” revolves around exploiting the obvious gameplay mechanics.
Bottom Line: off-the-ball play needs massive changes and improvements. Only after can we have a realistic balance between technical play and tactical play.
Dan
You have picked up on an area where football games really need to address.
Defenders are too comfortable on the ball. Not just defenders but whole teams with low technique.
You would expect to get the run around when trying to close down Barca’s midfield. And if you did get close, quick feet, a turn of pace, and they create their own space. Thats why top players are top players. A lack of space doesnt affect their game too much.
But, most defenders and lesser teams seem too comfortable on the ball. You can always, quite happily pass the ball around or dribble out of defence, or a team like Stoke will quite happily stroke the ball about from back to front.
Players do get effected by pressure at the moment, but I believe its only if someone is right on them. Technically inferior players should get spooked easier if there are opposition players in the vicinity, not just pressuring them for the ball. They should suffer from miss control of the ball when dribbling and turning and misplaced passes. But even if opposition players are a few feet or even meters away. That’s probably a fairly easy fix, as the coding for pressure affecting the players ability is already there. It just needs to be extended.
As for realism and difficulty, I think i mentioned it in an email to you.
If you put enough options, sliders, assist options, AI intelligence levels, defence difficulty, passing difficulty, dribbling stickiness, speed selectors, pitch size etc etc the game should be able to cater for everyone ranging from arcadey simplistic 5minute gameplay, to full 90 minutes ultra realistic sim, at varying difficulty levels.
Some racing games offer that level of adaptability.
I agree that defending is where we need to start, but I think that passing is actually part of the problem. By this I mean that passing the ball in PES2010 is too effective and easy. I think this is something they took from Fifa (ping pong), but I prefered it when it wasn’t so easy to move the ball up the pitch. For example, if I’m in trouble it is too easy for me to get out of trouble by making a blind pass, even if my player is ridiculously off balance. More often than not the pass with miraculously slip past a few defenders and meet my player’s foot with pinpont accuracy. I’m talking about regular passing here, not through balls. Also, this goes big time for backheels. In real life backheels are not ass effective, because, well, you can’t see where you’re passing. In PES 2010 backheels always seem to go right where you want them. There needs to be context sensitivity with regards to passing in general, because that’s really a big part of football.
Anyway, I think if you had to be more careful when making a pass or shot, like you did in older PES versions on PS2, it would bring back a lot of the skill and difficulty level, plus lead to less pressing-as-defending. Not sure if I’m making my point, but when you have to be more careful with the ball and have more slow build up it makes for more measured play by both teams, less back and forth free flowing play, more midfield battling, and better balance all in all. The game becomes, in essence, more about positional play as a result. PES 2010 is fun for this very reason, but I hope to see a change in this regard for next year.
FIFA has got genetic disorders which is hereditary. No matter FIFA 16 comes, it will still be boring with repetitive gameplay and you will not enjoy more than 5 matches in a row!
Dopecoil, please please please, do us all a favour and go away and don’t come back, we get it, you like fifa, we don’t need telling everyday, starting to get very boring now.
Oops, bad typo by me in #11…
Anyway, back to my point about passing. I agree with Dan, but you can’t fix the defense until you fix the offense as well. In fact, fixing the offense would have the same effect. For example, one could say that the defensive game in PES 09 was poorer than in PES 2010, but in fact a lot of that is simply that the 90 degree turn was too effective. What they really need is to achieve a good balance.
Here are some more suggestions for fixes to help get there:
1. Passing needs to be less easy to execute. Should be difficult to pull off passes which are off-balance and all passing should generally be much less accurate. Less like Football Kingdom and Fifa.
2. Pace of the game should be slower IMO. By this I mean the defenders as well. Too often I think you see 4-5 defenders running full tilt chasing the player with the ball. The pace of all players is part of the problem, and in this regard I think Konami are missing some of what one learns from playing the real game. Not to say that none of them have played footy in real life, because what I’m talking about is subtle, but one of the things I have noticed in the real game is that it is actually very difficult to accelerate and make up ground quickly. One time I remember in particular my coach yelled at me for not taking the ball at a certain opportunity. I was always one of the fastest and hardest working players on the pitch (that’s where my skills began and ended though for the most part) however, I knew that the opportunity he was talking about was absolutely impossible to capitalize on (ball was too far from me to run in an steal it in time), so I explained (yelled back) that it looks a lot easier from the sidelines and that out there things look much different (more space and more ground to make up). In PES on the other hand there is none of this sense of space, and I don’t think it’s because I was never playing in professional leagues, because I can recognize the same sense of space in a real game, though it is subtle, honestly. In the end though, I’ll tell you one thing you don’t see in a real match, and that’s 5 players swarming around the player with the ball. If he has a bit of space nobody is going to catch up to him from yards away, well, maybe the one closest player, but not five different players!
3. Stamina. To add to this and help make it more realistic they really need to implement short-term stamina. I’ve been suggesting this for a long time now. People in Sports-Medicine/training all know that there are two very distinct types of stamina. The sprinter doesn’t necessarily do very well at a marathon, and vice-versa. It’s actually a physiological difference, they call it fast twitch muscles versus slow twitch. In PES every player has no limit to how long they can run at full speed, there’s just a general stamina bar which reflects their overall stamina. With or without the ball, at full speed, a player should only be able to sprint for a certain amount of time before losing some speed. This needs to change if they want to fix the problem described in #2 above, and move to a more realistic simulation – one which requires a bit more thought and less button mashing than the current game (as much as I love it).
PEACE
I think the problem is not japanese,I think it is the EU pes development team who making pes2010 as bad as now.it is also not they mistake,I read pesgaming long time ago, and I think pes2010 is what european people want from they post and feedback,slower gameplay,etc.but only the result not good game,also european team only care about marketing same as fifa team do.japanese make best game and europe team destroy it.
I said this because I have played pes2010 and we2010.the ball bounce in we2010 is very realistic,sometimes I see them spin backward.
The problem is,sorry,I think european are very stubborn,they dont want to try we2010,always said the same without trying it.
For all European,if u want the best pes,u should buy we2011,and after that konami will know what u want.and will make pes2012 the best ever football game.thanks…
In my opinion, it would be illogical to “improve” the defensive game right away -because- if improved, defending would still be boring and monotonous.
And again, I have no problems when I defend in PES10. I find both PES09 and PES10 very defensive, as a matter of fact. My problem with it is that it’s incredibly boring, like a boring procedure you’d rather skip; requiring almost no skills.
I think Konami should start by designing an off-the-ball concept based on the engine of each team: midfield play.
Only after, should we look at the defensive end -and- equip it with the same features used for midfield play.
I also think that the game must be slower and longer, and the pitch should also be a bit larger. I don´t agree with the following statement: “but simply this is an option that is going to isolate as many gamers as it will draw in”.
I fail to understand how a better game would isolate as many gamers as it will draw in; Football is not that complicated, and a realistic football simulation… Sure it would be hard the first week or so, but we would quickly adapt to the newer and superior gameplay concept.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but I have to be honest when I say that scrapping a FACT simply because you think it would “isolate as many gamers as it will draw in” — I mean, it’s just so closed-minded to think about it that way.
Both FIFA and PES need to move on from the 10 Minute Simulation concept. It will always have obvious flaws and it will always play a repetitive type of game. I think it’s time to face the facts and move forwards.
Duffman, Post 10
Fully agree… I had forgotten about that possibility. If it is possible, that would be the ideal alternative. We already have the arcadey 5 or 10 Minute Simulation.
So Konami can leave it exactly like it is, and only improve on superficial things like graphics, animations, etc. And instead of wasting so much time on something that is already full, Konami can start working on a completely new game.
Having both the current 10 Minute Simulation and a more realistic 20 or 40 Minute Simulation -would- certainly generate more interest. Although something tells me, it sounds too good to be possible.
I think defending is pretty much ok, but attack needs to be simulated :P
comp attackes with such less force :-|
@ 4 Jam-EZ
First of all, the game is very easy as it is. Second, creating a bigger pitch (thus creating more space between the players) wouldn’t make it easier specially if defending is improved, which would force them to make attacking more complex.
So…
.. if you play or watch real football you would know that you can’t keep the same pace for 90 minutes +. Football is about timing and speed variation, it constantly changes depending which zone the ball’s been played and time affects the team’s performance.
PES 2010 is nothing like this. As I said, the game feels to hermetic and the speed and timing is the same throughout the whole match. Every team behaves the same THE WHOLE time.
By saying that I wanted more space I never said they should make it easier, on the contrary.
But if you can’t tell the difference between PES and a real football game then I’m happy for you and, in a way, I envy you. Keep on playing and let us express our opinion without your ‘fresh’ remarks.
Cheers
PS. I do play football
I think blaming Japanese culture as the cause of fans being disappointed is a bit of a stretch.
Rebuilding the game and giving fans a brand new experience every year is a very very very tedious process. Let alone the amount of different gameplay modes there are in PES, each of them face demands from fans to be improved. It is very easy to gather a list from thousands of players around the world and say “make this please.” It is entirely a different issue when a team sets out to realize those ideas into actuality.
Each item on the agenda requires conception, and numerous iterations on the design and how it will be implemented into the game. After all that is set and done, it finally gets built by coders. From which testing and refinement is done, another laborious process. Looking at the list of things people have came up with, I would be impressed if they can realize even 1/10th of the list.
It is hard to please everyone, and making these suggestions into realize takes time and resources. It is a huge gamble as well to invest into making drastic changes when it is not guaranteed to improve sales. I think it was wrong for Konami to open the floodgate for user input, as people in general only take, not give. Most of the lists will never become reality not because Konami doesnt care, but rather it is impossible to do them all year after year. This harsh reality only gives fans false hope and more ammunition to complain.
It is really sad to see how little the fans appreciate the massive effort done by Konami already with PES2010. I salute them for taking on the challenge, but a team of less than 1000 people can not satisfy the thousands or maybe even millions of the fans out there.
20@srider,well said srider,agree with you.all of you should blame on european pes development team,they dont care about the gamer,they only care about marketing n making money.
Amateur and Dave O
I’m not sure if the players are actually amazingly fast. I think its more that the pitch is smaller.
The player speed and pitch size is probably set to give a reasonable amount of chances over the course of 10mins.
They could set pitch size, player speed, defenders ability to mark and close down space and passing success rate to the match time you choose.
They need to alter their main focus when programming the game. At the moment they work on making 10min matchs. They should start off trying to make the ultimate 90min simulation and then work on how to dumb it down to work for 10minutes.
The current match engine of any footy game just wouldnt work over the course of 90mins. They need to program from the top down not the bottom up.
I’m sure I’ve played football games with short term stamina before. They should also put the ability to regenerate stamina by being less active and not just at half time. Players often replenish their long term stamina, not just their short term, by walking about and not chasing down balls.
does anyone know when the next update is coming out?
@20 Srider Says
Some good points.
If was easy, everyone would be doing it. There are only 2 major football titles being made.
Before jumping to criticise Konami and Seabass, its worth having a quick look back. How many other football titles managed more than 2 or 3 games that improved year on year?
Only Fifa has kept going but only their first 2 games were any good, its taken until recently for them to produce even a half decent game.
I think the venom directed at Konami is harsh. People may be frustrated and disappointed but surely the length of service they have offered deserves a little faith or patience. It might even be their time, in which case we should thank them for their efforts not vilify them for their failures.
If Ferguson had a couple of lean years, I’m sure the Utd supporters would call for his head. Football supporters are very fickle by nature.
i like this idea of a chat room set up every so often. i think that we (I) spurt out ideas here, but often they get overlooked. if you indeed have the possibility to influence the up-coming game, i for one want my ideas to be heard and passed along. like fixing the vertical cam, returning it to that of previous versions. and getting rid of the nonsensical regional restrictions, opening up play between hemispheres. i can repeat this in every comment section, but i think that a live chat will help us all emphasize the ideas that are important to us.
Amateur
No amateur its my opinion and i never expect everyone to agree with me or do i pass my opinion off as fact unless it relates to the niggles and flaws that exist in pes that we all see and cant be denied because they are fact.
Back to your question would i play pes2010 more if the animation was as good as fifa10.Well it would help as i feel the animation enhances the gameplay and gives fifa10 fluidity and precise player control and isnt just cosmetic.But thats not to say the problems with pes can be answered with a animation overhaul as we are all aware the problems run much deeper.
Its funny how everyone has a different interpretation of football i personally see football as a game of risk and reward where you have the choice of either playing a more tactical game getting behind the ball building slowly not pressing to hard and soaking up pressure hitting teams on the break when gaps are left and space opens up or playing a more attack minded game leaving yourself more exposed but keeping the opposition on the back foot.When a team chooses to sit behind the ball and are more difficult to break down because of there reluctance to press its harder to get behind the opposition so your forced to either run at players forcing them into errors and opening them up or moving the ball around stretching the opposition until areas of space open up for your teamates to run into and yes fifa10 gives you this choice manually not at the whim of a tactical slider and card system.
You talk about football like its just about the midfield and battles within that zone of the pitch that dictates the outcome in football games when the midfield is just one component of a team which generally contains a playmaker and holding player with two wingers if your playing a 4-4-2 with the playmaker quickly distributing the ball to the forwards and wide players for them to play of the playmaker either feeding the ball back to him for a run into the box or strike outside or the playmaker holding the ball up why forwards and wingers try to time there runs so they beat the offside trap on through balls or come inside the defender to receive a ball to feet.
You say in fifa10 you can see danger but you cant act on it while defending,again,i disagree you can track runs in fifa10 and always keep your defence in front of the opposition making it very difficult for the opposition to get behind your back four which makes it very hard for the opposition to score unless you start allowing your defensive players to be sucked out of position and separated loosing there shape and leaving you exposed and open.
By definition football is a repetitive sport much like any ball sport doing the same things over and over again until you get the required result with many things you see on match day obsessively practised in training over and over again.
Fifa10 in my opnion is state of the art because its not broken and you can express your passing and long ball game more freely with players linking up more consistently and reading balls better that are hit into space plus its not glitchy or does it have ai that is playing out its own game making you a passenger much like a RTS game so your really only making the minimal amount of input.This is why when you try and force the play in pes2009,2010 its frustrating as you have to get in-tune with the ai and what its doing to squeeze any enjoyment from it as your playing on its terms.
You say your a fifa man and have been playing the series since 2001 but even you must be able to see how over the course of the last two years pes has if anything tryed to move in the same direction as fifa as both play in a almost uncannily similiar fashion albiet fifa10 being much more precise and finished and also offering a much more deeper control set.
Amateur
Ask most people and they would say the same thing,how they would love fifa10s animation,gameplay and ai but with pes2010 graphics and replays.
If fifa10 did have pes2010s graphics and replays no one would be playing pes this year.
amateur
just for the record im a pes fan and konami purist and never played a fifa game up until this year because for me fifa09 was to buggy and was still in 8-axis and i personally thought pes2009 was the better game.The reason i play fifa10 now more is because it allows me to play football how i have always wanted pes to without the same niggles and querks that have frustrated me for ten years.Yes i could get into pes2010 and grow used to the flaws and not notice the glitches much like dave o and others in the blind hope that it improves.
I have just lost my optimisum for the pes series the empty promises the same lies about the so-called improvements to the dribbling system that never seem to materialise.What happened to the promises of animations that dove tail into each other and differences in the ball speed when running with the ball or being stationery or the animation improvements that have where promised last year.Its the same smoke and mirrors marketing bull**** from a developer that doesnt understand continuity or finishing and refining the previous version instead choosing the next year to go in a different direction improving some things and making others worse and producing more of a unfinished mess.
It will be the same next year and the next mark my words.
when does the next update comes out?
Who need indoor football,or training camp when the basics are ****.Animations are ****(how can you say that PES feel like real football when players run like they have a carrot in their asses,FIFA is ten millions years ahead at animations),goalkeepers are ****(dumb monkeys),reffs are ****,etc.So pass the damn good ideas not minor changes like indoor football(damn **** idea who need that).I want organic animations,not 22 dumb monkeys passing the ball.
Duffman 20
Remember bud pes productions certainly in my view have only produced probably two good game ie pes5/6 which both still hold up well today.Everything else has been mediocre and the last three years just plain poor.
Theres only so many years you can live off the reputation of two games.
@ Dopecoil
I will try to reply to you properly, as soon as I can.
But for now, I would like to say that in my opinion the focus should be on the engine of the team: the midfield.
Because, please do consider that we cannot have full control over all areas of the pitch, we only have so many fingers and so many buttons to use.
Therefore, the priority should be the most decisive area: the midfield. Any player, from Pele to Zinedine Zidane, will tell you that titles are won on the midfield.
You ask Fernando Hierro, Figo, Zidane -WHO- was the most important player at Real Madrid; they have all said that Claude Makelele was the most important player.
* Here is what Zidane said after Florentino Perez decided to replace Claude Makelele with David Beckham: “Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?”
* Fernando Hierro: “I think Claude has this kind of gift – he’s been the best player in the team for years but people just don’t notice him, don’t notice what he does. But you ask anyone at Real Madrid during the years we were talking about and they will tell you he was the best player at Real. We all knew, the players all knew he was the most important. The loss of Makélélé was the beginning of the end for Los Galacticos… You can see that it was also the beginning of a new dawn for Chelsea. He was the base, the key and I think he is the same to Chelsea now.”
Midfield Play conditions how the team plays: determines how forwards will move and how defensive-lines will work.
http://www.konami-digital-entertainment.co.jp/en/news/release/2010/0203_2/index.html
Amateur 32
I never said it wasnt i was just saying its a component of the team that works in unison with everything else.I understand the value of a holding midfielder and a playmaker so spare your words.When also did i say we need more buttons ISS offered more control of your eleven and only had the same amount of buttons its how you maximise there use and how your inputs directly effect the protagnists on the pitch.Theres no harm in allowing the user to elevate and spin the ball manually with the stick himself or having more directional and pace control you dont need more buttons for that.
Amateur 32
And dont use zidane as a example he was unique and very versatile more of a number 10 or fantavista as the italians call it”the playmaker or creative player”.Zidanes brilliance came not only from his skill but also his vision as he was the master of keeping it simple when it needed to be and compplex when he had the space and time.
I really dont get where your coming from amateur as ive spent years playing as a midfielder and also watching premiership/division1 and italian football for years so understand the midfield and its importence and feel that part of football has been replicated well for years in games.If you want to base all your plays through your playmaker you can and your holding player will always protect your back four if he isnt forced forward by the user and taken out of position.Football games wouldnt work if the midfield was as badly replicated as you imply.
Dopecoil,
I am tired of both your lack of respect towards myself and your lack of understanding of the game.
Midfield play is never nessesary, never ever in any football simulation; it should be a necessity instead of just an alternative.
But like I said, I am bored of your arguing-approach. So I’m just going to say that you are 100% correct, everything you say is correct; never mind the FACTS.
PS- Don’t expect any more responses from my part.
Dopecoil,
And for the record, if you missinterpretated everything that I explained in last week’s Interfering With Play… that’s not my problem.
Not only do you come off as painfully arrogant, but you also sound and express yourself like a very dumb and dull person.
Read what I had to say, listen to what it implies; and then you can start arguing with me.
But at the moment, everything you say it’s complete nonsense… entirely created by yourself as I never stated that midfield play should require a defensive midfielder and a playmaker.
What I did say was that the relation between technical ability and tactical ability is NOT there. And therefore midfield-play is in FACT not necessary at all.
Every engine works differently, but how it works should not be determined by your tactical system; instead, it should be determined by the technical and tactical abilities of each player.
I really don’t know why I waste my time with you. Perhaps this is exavtly why you appreciate FIFA10 so much.
Amateur 36
Well what else happens in the midfield then some magic im unaware of or are players in the middle exempt from pressure so they have all the time in the world to control the game and dictate play.There are times in any football game where the games stretched and theres space and time in the middle of the park but thats not the whole game and just like the midfield its a requirement to hold the ball up in the last third as well as between the players of your back line at various stages of the game.
You talk of the 10 minute simulation and how boring it is when i say lets get the 10 minute simulation right first and polished to perfection before we consider a 90 minute game with stamina coming into play and a much more realistic pace and tempo.
I dont want to control every action of every player at once with arms like a octapuss and a controller with sixteen buttons i just want a game that when the cursor switches to my player i have precise control and the ability to hit the ball be it a through pass,pass,long pass on a sixpence also putting elevation on the ball myself on long passes/crosses with the stick rather then the cpu and assisted controls making that decision for me.I also want ai that know its a fullback/winger/forward and moves into a advanced position when its the right time to do it based on whats happening around that player because a fullback or winger knows its role its hardwired into there brain and fifa10 understands this and how ai should work by complementing the users skill and ability to control his cursor assigned player with good off the ball ai.
I think your not quite as smart as you think nor have you played fifa10 or pes2010 enough to really understand what your talking about and for once have been made to look a little silly and cant come up with a descent counter argument.
Dopecoil,
Just to make everything perfectly clear for you. When I called you “dumb” I meant to say immature.
I really don’t understand the word “dumb” that well, at least not when used to describe a human being or forum member who can afford a PS3 console… as I think that someone who can afford a PS3 is immature and ignorant because he decided to be like that.
To be honest, your arrogance does not really bothers me, if that’s who you are or how you like to express yourself I have no problems with that -however- it really bothers me that you don’t have the knowledge to back that arrogance of yours.
So what I’m trying to say is that, you don’t know how to communicate with me. I take the time to use my knowledge and experience of the game and express my ideas openly; and here you are, diminishing everything I said because you don’t understand or don’t want to understand.
You really need to grow up in this respect.
To everyone saluting Konami for “trying” with Pes 2010, shame on you! They took an amazing game from many years ago, completely butchered it, then called it Pes 2010. Apart from graphics, fancy tricks, and more teams and licenses, it’s actually shocking to see that a game from 6 years ago on an inferior platform that came from the same development team actually plays better. I’m dumbfounded by the gap between now and then. Let’s do a comparison shall we?
Pes 3: Practically true to life refs and goalkeepers. More varied and organic animation. Better dribbling, passing, shooting, ball physics, collision system, injury system, punishment system. The cpu was challenging, more intelligent, and they knew how to score (sometimes a lot) on you. Plus there were handballs, a big part of the real game.
Pes 2010: Mentally challened refs that followed the rugby rules handbook. One of the worst dribbling of the series. Robotic, half assed animations. The worst injury and punishment system of the series. Dumb cpu. Cpu Stoke knows how to pass like Barca. Very nice graphics. Lots of fancy tricks. Lots of teams and licenses.
Those last 3 sentences were usually used to describe a PS2 Fifa game lol. You can clearly see how much the series has gone downhill. Konami deserve no praise for butchering the once great series.
Amateur 39
Ive got a ps3,xbox360,wii and ds plus a n64,snes and various other retro consoles like a neo geo aes and pc engine.
Im not rich and im not dumb i just love games and have done since the atari vcs and early computers and thats never changed nor has my passion for football or the love of the games that try to replicate this beautifall sport.
Ive also been lucky enough to experience almost every take on football every created in digital form so have seen some quite amazing takes on the sport that while graphically awful now still have elements and properties that people would kill for to see in the football games of today and are often sadly overlooked.
While i may whittle on i do have the luxury of seeing and commenting on where konami are going wrong as like most people on here who have also been playing games for years understand the finer details leaving no hiding place for slopping coding and lazy poorly thought out ai implementation that offers a quick fix to a bigger problem.
Lighten up bud,you make good points and are interesting but debate is debate its not personal.Just think others read this **** have a chuckle and it gets people talking surely thats a good thing its called freedom of speech.
On improving the defensive aspect of the game, one thing I’ve always wanted to see is a decent standing tackle system. In the past few Pes it’s always been if you hold X your player tries really hard to give the other player a hug. If you just press it they make a really girly tackle that usually doesn’t do anything except make you look like a sissy. It was decent in Pes 3 where I can press X to trip a guy bursting down the wings for an intentional foul and yellow card.
I miss doing realistic stuff like that. In the recent Pes offerings, there is really no way to stop a winger bursting forward other then to slide which would almost certainly result in a red card.
Konami should make it so that if you press X the player will stick out his leg and success depends on a multitude of scenarios. This would be a sure fire way to stop certain goal scoring opportunities but also come with a realistic punishment system, a system which they had in the past. I think this would change the way you defend for the better, instead of just holding X and hoping you come away with the ball which is zzzzzz.
PES has been slowly going downhill over the years when in fact it should be doing the complete opposite due to the availability of the next gen platforms.
What I think is evident, is that for years now we have been shouting at Konami to include this and fix that and when the next release rolls around we build ourselves up ready for all these improvements and then we take a huge fall because they never come through or just fall short. I don’t think we have been asking for too much either.
Fifa10 may not be perfect but at least the fans don’t have to shout at EA to get improvements. EA simply know its what is expected of them.
I wish konami could make pes 5 on hd like sony did with the gods of war, so we can play a good game until pes 2011 arrives.
Who is going to buy this platinum sh…….?Unless is fixing issues or introduce feautures from PES2011.
http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/pes-2010-platinum-surfaces/
@31 Dopecoil Says:
‘Duffman 20
Remember bud pes productions certainly in my view have only produced probably two good game ie pes5/6 which both still hold up well today.Everything else has been mediocre and the last three years just plain poor.’
I dont feel I’m overly defending PES and Konami. The game is quite heavily flawed and has been for a couple of years, but for all of its leaps forward, so is FIFA.
What I just cant understand is people that have just forgotten how many years Konami has made the best football titles with ISS and PES. Even if you leave out the ISS games as they had a different programming team, PES was easily the best title for 6 years. No other developer can state that. And trust me, I’m in no way brand loyal to anyone, for anything. I’ve had pretty much every half decent football title (and some terrible ones) since home computer gaming began. I’m just recognising the fact that Konami, more than any developer, has come up with the goods over an extended period.
Yes, recently they have struggled a bit, but I dont think they are doing it on purpose, I dont think they are lazy, I do think the are trying. They obviously just hadnt planned adequately for the jump to next gen. I’m willing to be patient. I’ve seen so many football titles tail off and disappear. Even if that happens, I wont slag them off. These things happen.
And how fickle can you be to level all this criticism at Konami, for instance:
Dopecoil
‘Its the same smoke and mirrors marketing bull**** from a developer that doesnt understand continuity or finishing and refining the previous version instead choosing the next year to go in a different direction improving some things and making others worse and producing more of a unfinished mess.’
yet you sing the praises of Fifa. Fifa has only lasted this long because of marketing, brand name and blind loyalty. They have made something like 17 football games, of which only about 4 were any good. Youve obviously forgiven EA, so I find it amusing when people state that they will never buy a PES game again.
Both FIFA and PES games are heavily flawed. They also have many good points. FIFA jumped up to next gen far better than PES. Probably due to their experience of completely failing to make the next step after the megadrive. It took 2 years for the penny to drop at PES productions. Had PES10 been their first next gen iteration, I dont think we would have complained too much. Any shortcomings would have been explained away by dealing with the new system. Now, I think they are on the right track. They have set themselves up better to make next gen games and you should see fairly big improvements year on year (hopefully) from now on.
Where I can recognise that Fifa games are now quite good and much better than old gen Fifas, I still do not like them that much. I certainly do not think they are the holy grail of football gaming. In fact, if the choice was between playing only Fifa or nothing, I’d choose nothing.
@43 GameOver Says:
Fifa10 may not be perfect but at least the fans don’t have to shout at EA to get improvements. EA simply know its what is expected of them.
Again, I think we need to review exactly who EA are and what football games they have attempted to give us:
FIFA International Soccer · 95 · 96 · 97 · 98: Road to World Cup · 99 · 2000 · 2001 · 2002 · 2003 · 2004 · 2005 · 06 · 07 · 08 · 09 · 10
World Cup 98 · 2002 FIFA World Cup · 2006 FIFA World Cup · 2010 FIFA World Cup
UEFA Euro 2000 · UEFA Euro 2004 · UEFA Euro 2008
FIFA Street · 2 · 3
I’ve owned a lot of them. There has been a lot of shouting, for a very long time.
Theres too much emotion, too much bias and too much frustration being expressed. A lot of good points are being lost because things are being over hyped, over slagged off and forgotten. Step back, look at the facts, not how you feel things are or what they should be.
@44 cheo Says:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:12 am
I wish konami could make pes 5 on hd like sony did with the gods of war, so we can play a good game until pes 2011 arrives.
I’d like to see sensible soccer, or dino dini’s goal or kick off given a next gen shine.
@ Dopecoil,
I don’t have anything against you, but I must be honest and say that I find you a very immature person; I really don’t like you.
I mean, I understand your perspective -but- you clearly do NOT understand my point of view. And the annoying thing about is that you think you understand what I’m trying to explain. In other words, you think you know more than you actually know.
The total control that you want over the player WHEN in control of that player… SO WHAT?? Big deal… Footbal is a lot more than simply: passing, dribbling, or shooting the ball.
This is what you still don’t want to understand… for whatever the reason. And then you say that I don’t have a “descent counter argument”. I mean, what age are you? At times you sound like a 15 year old kid who doesn’t knows what he’s talking about, who simply wants to have a go at Amateur or whomever doesn’t agrees with his superior take on the game.
Is that what you want, do you want a descent counter argument? I’m not going to give you the satisfaction.
And it’s not because I don’t have anything to say about it, as in fact your argument is hugely flawed; it’s just that I feel that everything you are questioning was explained in last week’s Interfering With Play.
In my opinion, your take on how Football should be simulated is boooring. And yes, apparently, there is some “magic” on the pitch that you do not notice for whatever the reason.
Like Fernando Hierro said: “Makelele has been the best player in the team for years but people just don’t notice him, don’t notice what he does”.
It is how football works, most people don’t pay attention to all the details. I find it very hard to explain these details without proper video evidence, etc. It is a game of compromise via the use of technical ability and tactical ability, and obviously, how you move the ball.
Currently, FIFA10 and PES10 offer close to nothing on the tactical end. If you do not agree with that; you clearly don’t understand Football.
You should take a look at Duffman, he haves a good idea of how Football could work on paper (better than yours in my opinion), makes relevant points on a daily basis, and yet he is not as arrogant as you are.
It may sound strange to you, but some of us actually understand your take on the game.
Why can’t you come up with better and more relevant arguments? What do you want after you have FIFA10 with PES10 graphics?
Duffman
Im not worried about what ea used to do im more concerned about the hear and now and being objective and honest.
You might not like fifa10 but its a very polished game on the pitch taking everything thats wrong with pes and correcting it.Fifa10 is now the benchmark talk to people in the industry and most pes fans that have warmed to it and given it time and they will say the same thing fifa10 is stunning.
Its not about graphics its all about the gameplay and fifa10 provides ai and levels of control and freedom the pes fans have dreamed of for years and when you click with fifa10 and start to appreciate it dynmics and variation your realise ea have captured football almost perfectly in digital form.
As for my comment relating to konami not finishing pes and there smoke and mirrors marketing its true.Pes over the last three years has not been up to scratch its not correcting its faults nor is there the attention to the smallest little details that pes fans have been pointing out for ten years that are continually not addressed.
Pes now is old hat in every department apart from graphics and replays and its tired old timbers and on rails automated gameplay are as dated as the ps1 and it needs freshening up and bringing into the 21st century and porting over a ps2 engine onto modern next gen consoles and creating a teamvision ai system that has taken control of the game away from the user has been konamis biggest mistake when they should of thought out of the box 4 years ago and built something new from scratch.
Im not biased im just talking the truth and as much as even i want konami to raise there game i just cant see it based on the last ten years because pes has never ever really evolved its just a dead horse thats being flogged every year on about 6 platforms with very little investment in the areas that need money spent on them.
The only way back for konami now is if they have been developing something behind closed doors,something new and innovative just doing something with the current game in one year isnt going to be enough.
Comparing pes2010 to fifa10 is like comparing DOOM on the pc to COD mw2 theres such a massive technological differece between the two.
Amateur
I will do you a video of fifa10 showing you how effective the midfield is and how you can play football just like real life.
Its like they say words sometimes arent enough you need to let a video do the talking.I will demonstrate to you and duffman just how clever and smart the ai is in fifa10.
@ Dopecoil,
For the record, regardless of how arrogant you are I do admire your persistence and consistency. You only lack the dispocision to listen and understand what others say or try to explain.
This is why in my opinion, your take on the game is still child’s play -because- as far as you are concerned, you already know everything you need to know about Football. You don’t consider what other people say, and therefore you do not enrich your knowledge on the game.
That’s how communication works, pretty simple really.
amateut
Why can’t you come up with better and more relevant arguments? What do you want after you have FIFA10 with PES10 graphics?
Id like ISS/PERFECT STRIKERS one two system,the ability to put spin on the ball after its struck as its a game not real life so this backwards system of putting spin on the ball when the power bar is raising takes some of the depth factor away.
Apart from that im happy fifa10 for me is as good if not better then ISS/perfect striker so more refinement more animations and maybe halo3s theatre system so we can record and watch whole matches after they have finished,then for me fifa11 would be perfect.
Amateur
I listen but not to bull**** and crap and people like you who want things that already exist there just to quick to open there mouth before they research things.
Stop goggling statements from footballers about midfielders it adds no credance to your argument.
Ask most people now who have been there seen it and done it and they will say the same as me.
@ Dopecoil, Post 53
And that is exactly why I disagree with you, because you are under this delusion that FIFA10 is close to perfection.
I mean, good for you I guess. But in my opinion, the “manual” approach of FIFA may be fun for a limited time, but in FACT it goes against the laws of the game.
Every individual should have a particular relation between his tactical and technical qualities.
Regardless of just how good you are with “manual” controls, a defensive-minded team should never ever play a brand of football reminicent of Barcelona.
Real-life examples of this would be how Dennis Bergkamp failed at Inter Milan, in his words: “Inter was a defesnive side which limited my attacking talent”. Just an example of how Team Chemistry can affect an individual’s confidence level.
And to highlight the point, Dennis Bergkamp had a great run with Arsenal, because Arsenal had the players to make better use of Bergkamp’s ability.
By the same logic, Roberto Baggio has stated a few times that, had he played for an attacking side like Brazil, he would have won more titles.
If everything revolves around manual ability or skills, and everything is as flexible as you’d like it to be. Sure, it would be fun for a limited time -but- it would be absurd to describe it as a “realistic” simulation when in FACT it overlooks the essence of Football.
Personally, I have a 50/50 opinion on the whole FIFA10 vs PES10 debate. At times I prefer FIFA10 over PES10, and at times I prefer PES10 over FIFA10. At the end of the day, I cannot say that I genuinely enjoy playing either game.
We must have both technical play and tactical play: if everything revolves around manual/technical “skills” the game will be very easy to read, giving way to yet more monotonous simulations.
It will be interesting to see just how much your perspective will change in the coming years.
Amatuer
Stop going on about tactics amateur,football isnt as tactical as you think its works on three basic principles,passing,movement and response and ultimately is about man vs man and the law of averages and science and probabilty.You can have all the tactics in the world but if the opposition is getting in your face deneing you space and time and forcing you to hurry your tactics mean nothing.
Most teams have a plan a,plan b and plan c and if these dont work they adapt there tactical style at the discretion of the manager based on the way the game is panning out.
Ultimetly its about passing,shooting and movement and clever use of space,time and angles.A more skilled and physically strong team will win more games then it losses against weaker opossition however tactically clever that team is.
Dopecoil,
I am done talking to you, keep talking out of your arse.
Dopecoil,
Please shut the f*ck up, you clearly don’t understand football, and it is more and more evident the more you open your mouth.
This is the last time I will respond to one of your pointless arguments. Have a swell time with FIFA 2011!
@53 Dopecoil Says
Id like ISS/PERFECT STRIKERS one two system,the ability to put spin on the ball after its struck as its a game not real life so this backwards system of putting spin on the ball when the power bar is raising takes some of the depth factor away.
Apart from that im happy fifa10 for me is as good if not better then ISS/perfect striker so more refinement more animations and maybe halo3s theatre system so we can record and watch whole matches after they have finished,then for me fifa11 would be perfect.
I’m not going to tell you that you are wrong to like Fifa. But I cant get my head around anyone claiming it is nearly perfect. Its not a bad game, but perfection is a long way off. Everyone, including me, would be playing it if it were that good.
What I get from your posts Dopecoil, is that when you like something, its perfect and everything else is rubbish. So some of your points, although relevant get lost or are impossible to agree with. The world isnt black and white, its generally a lot of medioca grey.
Fifa and Pes are not amazing. Fifa had a lot of ground to make up and pes are 2 years behind where they should be. Both games would have been good in 2008, but unfortunately a good 2 year old game is only medioca now.
I have been hankering for a more indepth full game replay system for ages. I havent played halo so I’m not sure what the halo3 theatre system is.
Before rabbiting on, I forgot to comment on the putting spin on the ball after you kick it (after touch)
I personally would prefer that you cant alter spin after you kick it (detrimental effect on realism). But I can see that it would make a good option to turn on or off.
I dont need a video demonstrating fifas clever ai. I have the game, i could surely see it for myself playing it. For whatever is wrong or right with fifa, i just dont enjoy playing it. There isnt really any game that I particularly want to play. To be fair, there is the possibility its not the game, its just me and maybe I’ve hit that age :)
why are people praising and preaching FIFA here, if its good and realistic, why are there still millions of fans playing PES?
And your ideas are very good, do you think Konami don’t know them before? They know much more than what we think, they have R&D section whose main purpose is to THINK!! Its all technical problems and limitations that they cannot implement the ideas.
Konami won’t implement such an in-depth simulation at any circumstance, if they do it, they will lose the existing market.
They are not going to consider such complex gameplay, anyway they can implement in-game without giving the option of altering by the user.
PES/FIFA WILL NOT BE PLAYABLE IF ITS MADE AT LEAST 80 % SIMULATION. on-pitch or off-pitch PES should not be simulated perfectly. It will not be a video game anymore and the fun of playing will vanish.
So its always better to limit our imagination considering the capability of development team at KONAMI. We can give ideas only for REPAIR of the existing game and we can see the outcome very soon.
Changing a small variable in the game can make a big difference, like when ever a ball is cleared by head from a corner or cross, the cleared ball follows a particular trajectory no matter what ever is the clearing power. Free kick shot can be made to curve and crosses curve why not the direct shots? Konami have made various licensed shirts, why are they not including the shirt collars in the edit mode which is already designed? why for every tackle the player falls, the player could go off balance . After a tackle why the player recovers very slowly? like wise we have to list each and every fault and once they are sorted out, finally the game will play good. Just by telling ‘improve the gameplay’, ‘improve the graphics’ will no longer help konami to understand where they fail.
******** ATTENTION TO DETAILS is the key to PERFECT PES ********
I would be good if all contribute for a common cause – HOW FAR IS PES DEVIATING FROM REALISM. For every department we can have one week of discussion and it must tell where the gameplay could be improved. This can give ideas for improving the game inch-by-inch there by from the smallest factor like player’s acceleration to the biggest like off the ball movement can be listed and then sorted with respect to its priority and submitted it to konami. This will seriously help. This also does not mean you will tell ” improve the passing” this makes no sense. I appreciate Amateur’s efforts on giving ideas in the department of OFF THE BALL MOVEMENT. He came up with some thing which can be implemented and thought of, so a detailed discussion of a factor and after the week making an Abstract of it highlighting the key points would be an expected suggestion. I want the site mods and owners to follow this, I had an idea of making a magazine regarding the improvement of PES, but it would only be my idea and correction of it would not be possible so i thought of having the ideas here by discussing the POSSIBILITY of any idea. All i want is to discuss a small factor or parameter which can simple do the job – IMPROVE the factor, this is the simplest way of finding the fault and rectifying. Discussing the gameplay in the minute level will only give ideas for improving and not discussing the gameplay as a whole. I always believe attention to details will make PES better and better. For example many fans want the goal nets fixed why???? because its visible and does not resemble latest nets, but the gameplay is very less visible and we have to consider in smaller levels , these small things when improved will make the game improved.
duffman
I couldnt see what i see in fifa10 at first and couldnt understand why what i believed to be a load of hyped up turd was being raved on about by so many people,its weird its almost like it takes two months of playing it to see its beauty and you have to play it like the real game its no good just pass,pass,passing hoping that space opens up and everything flows you have to know when to release a quick pass and when to run and move with the ball waiting for your teamates off the ball to make runs and the right movements.But its just not that its the ai and individuals and how they shine when you exhibit clever plays,if your one dimensional the game is,if you try things that are not always obvious they come off and setting the long pass and crossing to manual gives you so much freedom on crosses and long passes you can really spot a cross and hit long balls behind defenders for your forwards to run onto.Theres also the different variables when the game breaks down or is stretched and when the ball bounces off players and is loose and the way you can do last minute clearences off the lines and defenders block and slide.What im basically saying when you hit its g-spot it comes alive much like pes5/6 and ISS but with more freedom and more organic play.
Yes i was excited by pes2010 at first who wasnt partly down to a little bit of denial and me wanting it to be more then it is.
Going back to halo3 and the theatre mode basically it records your game be it in single player or online for however long you play so you can watch it back slow it down change the angles much like a extended replay or even edit the best bits.
Are do you a fifa10 vid though and drop you a link i think your be suprised.
Good posts Duffman. Good to see some comments that put things in perspective. Sometimes I worry that the press and the so-called “hardcore” fanbase (i.e. anyone who would take the time to post in forums) may be misrepresenting what a lot of people actually think about PES 2010 and Fifa 10 (those who love the game but can’t be arsed with writing about it on forums).
Again, what I say is:
Take both games with a grain of salt and play what you want. Make constructive remarks and suggestions. Complaining a bit here and there is ok, but it’s more effective to add than to just whine and moan. Also, trying to tell everyone they are wrong and you are right does nothing except make your other opinions look less respectable. These are the points I make over and over on this forum, but really in the end it’s not my problem.
Still loving PES 2010 by the way. Won the CL final 6-0 against Real Madrid but it was actually very hard fought and a great game. Now, I’m in the next season, tied my first game in an epic battle with Liverpool (they signed a young Nigerian prodigy named Myukins, who scored a goal in the 89th minute so sweet that I had to save the replay… It stung too because I had tried to sign him but failed, however I got my revenge in injury time to tie it up!). Then, that same week I lost to Real 2-1 in champions league qualifiers (their revenge for me having slayed them in last year’s final).
I’m begining to want to make the statement that in terms of longevity and ML, this year’s game is the best I have ever played. Not quite there yet, but after the patch I can say it is definitely a huge leap in terms of long term enjoyment over any other next gen version, and that goes for gameplay as well.
Played over 250 hours of ML now, which usually where I begin to lose interest, but we will see if my enjoyment of the game, which really seems to be increasing actually, continues…
The easiest thing would be fixing PES 2010 and seeing how closely it follows football and where it deviates. This can answer many things and priority can be set. This is the way PES Dev team works. They concentrate where the game fails. So what should we do? we should help them by giving such ideas which really help them find where the game lacks realism and should be detailed and the suggestion should be sent in a proper manner with its priority. For a more detailed suggestion we can make modules for konami. For example MODULE 1 will deal with passing animation – so in this we can compile a video with different passing styles of players from the real football. then we highlight in the written part which describes the players’ movement and balance, etc , so by this we can see them implemented, we give a readymade suggestion which is easy for them to understand. Like wise we can make 100s of modules and keep them sending often, these will be organized and if any correction or addition of the suggestion is made, we can refer them the module number and tell them to make the changes. I want it like this and believe me it will work 50 % faster then our traditional suggestion methods.
Instead of people ranting here, mods and owners can make such organized suggestions methods, which should be weekly and discussion of it should be easy because we will be discussing small things. I hope we can see such a suggestion method implemented first in PESGAMING, so that PES itself is improved very soon :)
I agree with you there freak08. I think that we need to help show them what we want, and video would be great. How do we make it happen though?
@ Dave O
I have just downloaded Arsenal’s season reviews and many other full matches, from here I’ve to work on with observing each and every inch of gameplay instead of enjoying the match :P. I’ll make a rough draft of things which i do not find in PES. then later will split them into modules and add things as i get more ideas. This seem to be very long process. First I’m considering signature style passing , like whats the difference between a Fabregas’s pass and Pirlo’s pass likewise how Xavi passes in the same situation.. so it needs deep observation and my reports on this will be ready soon and if possible i’ll post it here.
So far what i’ve found is while using MO-CAP, player does not move as he moves naturally, this may be because the player feels uncomfortable with the MO-CAP equipments on his body :P just joking, so this leads to an improper player celebration animation ( like player keeps smaller steps while running in a celebration cut scene )
And one more thing i’ve noted is the transition between two animation is very rigid, so the whole animation becomes rigid, If they can smooth out the transition, the animation can be good. I’ve tried this in a video editor by smoothing the time transition, it looked nice, so just imagine if the professionals do it, it would be perfect.
If I get anything from these forums its that there isnt one perfect formula.
Too many people want different things or see things differently.
So as I’ve said before, they need to make the game hugely user defined. There needs to be so many options that everyone can make the game perfect for them.
suggestions off the top of my head:
Catchup mode on/off
after touch on/off (for Dopecoil)
Game speed
Pitch size
Passing completion success rate
goalkeeper parry rate
goalkeeper skill level
referee harshness
handballs
shirtpulling
professional fouls
turn speed
control delay
AI intelligence defense/midfield/attack/opposition/teammates
X button tackling effectiveness
heading power and accuracy
pitch shadows and glare
contd…
The smallest detail of the goalkeeper animation is ‘ the goalkeeper makes very small jumps before he is going to save the shot, after a jump or two the GK balances himself to judge the path of the ball. Not all do the same – James of portsmouth does not do this often, but Pepe Reina of liverpool does this frequently. This small detail can improve at least 0.01% of PES, like wise one by one, inch by inch we got to get to the point. and as i said fill in the modules and submit it properly if possible with video footage and highlighted explanations will surely improve the game and most importantly very soon.
Sounds good freak. I want to point out though that in my opinion Fabregas (or whoever) doesn’t pass the ball with the same style/technique every time. There needs to be some randomness inserted, as well as context sensitivity if you want realism, otherwise you get very realistic movements, but their repetetiveness actually drains all the life out of the feel of the game. Fifa already suffers from this quite a bit, especially since a lot of their animations are quite over-the-top in my opinion.
Also, I agree with Duffman about making the game adjustable. The strange thing though is that sports games in general, in my experience, have moved away from this way of doing things more over the last 5-10 years. I can remember older NHL games, etc, which allowed you to adjust just about everything to your liking, including pass interception rate and just about everything else Duffman mentioned.
I personally can’t see Konami going this way, mostly because they didn’t do this in the past as far as I remember, but I think it might be a suggestion for one of the bloggers to discuss further, because it really does get to the heart of the matter and could resolve a whole shwack of issues that people have. Also, keep in mind part of the reason companies have moved away from this sort of design is that online will always require a singular gameplay setting. Again, that’s not to say it wouldn’t be worth it. Even if Konami implemented this for one year they could probably retrieve data from the online servers and get a direct idea of what people want by doing this (gather statistical analysis of what settings people are using and use that to inform future versions).
Good ideas though guys.
@ freak08
Well I think it depends on what we consider an 80% simulation.
For one thing, I don’t think it’s possible to achieve an 80% simulation with the current hardware. So I’m not really concerned about that.
Perhaps when the PS4 or PS5 exists -but- at the moment I don’t see any risks at going overboard with realism… Both PES10 and FIFA10 are so far off from reality, that we should not even be concerned about that.
I am fully convinced about one thing, that this assumption of “realism” taking the fun out of the game… it’s just so inaccurate on so many levels.
I haven’t had enough time to read your posts and what your really trying to say properly; hopefully I will give a proper response when I have the time. But the bit about the 80% simulation is something that (in my opinion) will never be possible on a PS3 console.
I agree that making the game too much of a simulation could be more bad than good, but also I think it’s unrealistic to expect that it will become so relaistic that you might as well go kick a ball on a real pitch. For example, until we actually use our feet/legs to control the game it will really never be anything like the real game. It is what it is. For me, if the controls were with the legs/feet it would be a bad thing because I have bad knees (injured from too much real footy), and might not be able to play it then. That’s an extreme of course, and in fact I think more realism would be nice. However, I think it’s clear that Amateur wants a game which is as close to the real game as possible. Obviously that means slower gameplay and longer matches. I’m not disagreeing there (at all, in fact I like the idea and see where Amateur is going with it), but again I would point out that part of what PES does is simulate the whole managerial aspect of the game (the world of football) and again I want to point out that games becoming too long takes away from that.
Amateur, have you played much BAL? Have you tried it on the PS2? IMO the BAL mode might be more suited to longer matches and more realistic gameplay like you want.
@ Dave O
You know, I was thinking that maybe when I’m older I might find it interesting -but- after thinking about it, I don’t like the idea of a video game trying to replicate football so closely.
I don’t like the idea and I honestly don’t see anything appealing about the BAL mode at the moment.
I’m way more intrigued by things that I cannot do in real-life, like for example, having full control of my team, etc. It’s one of those things that I would like to do some day, play a realistic simulation with my All-Time XI.
As I’ve said already, for getting the work done quick and fast, we should have something like this. We make 4 basic modules
1) Game play
2) Visuals
3) Sounds system
4) Game Features
These Modules will have Sub-modules, like under
GAMEPLAY
- passing
- ball trapping
- shooting
- attacking
- defending
- goalkeeping
- Ball physics
etc, and under VISUALS we have sub-modules like
- Intro video
- Menu presentation
- Game interface design and systems
- Player graphics and modeling
- Environment design and modeling
- player animation and off-balance actions
- Crowd and official’s animations
- Player celebrations and other signature style actions
SOUND SYSTEMS
- Dynamic Commentary with advanced AI
- Crowd chants and reactions
- Sound effects on and off pitch
- Menu sounds
- Background music
GAME FEATURES
- Custom cutscene manager
- Highlight composer
- 3D formation editing
- Custom formation editing with speed and frequency of overlap/off-ball-movement
- stadium builder
- pie-chart representation of match statistics ( won, lost, drew )
- Edit mode features
- Game controls
- Game modes
- Referees and their influence on the match
- Scoreboard and ad-board maker
etc,etc its not over yet, these have to still breaken into further divisions like under
GAMEPLAY> BALL TRAPPING>
we will discuss these in detail like
- chest trap
- signature style trap
- First touch
- Thigh trap
The discussions would see the following
1) how will it improve the game
2) what level of freedom will this give to the user
3) how different buttons can be set for each type
4) compile a video which highlights all type of traps and other first touches
5) Discuss Animations and post-trap player movements,(like the player bends for acceleration)
6) once we get all the ideas, write them in MS-word and using Acrobat plugin we make PDF files
7) We can also explain using Images/tables/flowcharts,etc in the PDFs for easy understanding
8) we can embed videos to PDFs also or paste link of you-tube.
9) So a Readymade suggestion module is ready for Konami to read/watch,etc
10) I’m very sure this way we can get our feedback in a professional way with all points highlighted
11) If KONAMI wants us to update us about what they are doing- they can just say ” we are working on MODULE 1 – a ”
Its only my wish, I don not know if Konami will accept any suggestion in this format or so, what ever we fans have to deliver quality suggestion to expect a quality PES! This is not easy and needs help from all the fans to make it happen.
I have to say, you guys have some commitment to football gaming and it should be applauded. Amateur, Freak08, Duffman & Dave O.
I still believe that whilst there are only two franchises on the market, much of what is asked for will be ignored, but, I have to admire your persistence and commitment to the cause.
I dont think you’d need to use your legs to play the ultimate simulation. The Wii uses a lot of body movements but is in no way a simulator. Maybe some day, probably after my time, they may be able to plug your brain directly into the computer. This would give the ultimate VR experience much like the matrix.
I dont think games that are very good simulations are boring, unless its something like a washing up simulator. I think someone tried to imply that fifa wasnt as much fun to play as its a better simulation. Which is just ridiculous.
I think that the ultimate goal should be to make PES as good a sim as possible within the confines of modern technology. ie. PS3, telly, controller. As sims are often harder to just pick up and play they’d just have to offer levels of realism ranging from full arcade to full sim.
I like the BAL mode but thats because it reminds me of my all time favourite game. The original player manager. That for me, was the ultimate game concept. BAL mode gets rid of any problems of changing players. No football has ever nailed it, often changing players when you dont want or not giving you who you want. You get to build your career and move between clubs. There is satisfaction when you train up youngsters in ML but it doesnt compare to your own player improvements. You also get a much better feel of the team you are playing in. Management type games work much better when you dont get to control the players. They really need to add a player manager mode to BAL. Ive always preferred sims and obviously controlling one player is more sim like than controlling 11.
freak08, i think you have missed the most important part of making a game. User interaction. How the user interacts with the players and the team. The best AI in the world isnt worth squat unless the user has been giving decent control over the game and feels like the game responds properly to their inputs.
soxnsandels Says:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I have to say, you guys have some commitment to football gaming and it should be applauded. Amateur, Freak08, Duffman & Dave O.
I still believe that whilst there are only two franchises on the market, much of what is asked for will be ignored, but, I have to admire your persistence and commitment to the cause.
I’m not sure I should be applauded soxnsandels. You might have noticed that I only ever post in office hours :)
what ever happened to the more detailed match stats after a match??? AND the players who scored for you, during a game is paused????
I hadn’t noticed. Bloody part timer!
@ the DOPECOIL vs AMATEUR argument
Midfield battles are important – there is nothing better for me than watching the artistry involved in dictating a game of football. A player who can control the pace of a game is what each side needs to keep the whole team ticking over, whether defending or attacking. Amateur – when you hear the Zidane and Hierro’s saying Makelele was the best player at Real Madrid, they werent saying he was the best. They said he was more important. And that was only because they had so many attacking players in the side that they needed a defensive, combative player to give the team balance. He didnt dictate the play, he ‘held the fort’ if you like, quelling opposition attacks not just with his tackling/pressing, but more importantly because he would simply sit in front of the defense, causing the opposition to rethink about attacking through the centre of the field. He would win the ball or force a mistake, then give to the ‘flair’ players so they could create attacks. The reason there was such a big hole left by him at Real was not because he was a great player, but because they replace him with Beckham who had never played as a holding midfielder in his life. Neither PES or FIFA replicate the tactical awareness and abilities of differing types of player, this is an area which would make the game more realistic.
I also think more emphasis should be placed on close control – centre forwards should be able to hold the ball up better without having to sprint in the opposite direction to the defenders, as should midfielders be able to keep/shield the ball from the opposition while looking for a pass. Obviously ability stats whould dictate how good/bad each player is at doing these kind of things in matches (ie Xavi will hold the ball under pressure while he picks a pass than George Boateng, and so on…)
The AI assisted passing needs to go to get the game off its ‘rails’, and i think a power meter should be applied to all passes/shots/headers.
Here I start with defending part of the game
________________________________
Module : DEFENDING
Sub-module : DEFENDING CONTROLS
________________________________
Defending is as important as attacking, and without defense the football will not be beautiful. Defending in PES is less developed and not much under user’s control as attacking is. We need more responsive controls for each defending action and tactically it must prove reliable. So what all does PES have in the department of defending? We can alter man marking strength, choose defense line depth, and have few defending strategies like pressure, off-side trap and total defense, call a team-mate to join in pressure.
A user may have different techniques for managing the game and would like the defense to behave in certain manner. To deliver such a freedom to the user, defending needs more customization. These include defending controls, tactics, individual player defensive roles, dynamic marking, sector allocating and overlap distance and frequency.
By having these freedom, one can play the team like they play in reality, thereby making the AI smarter and use the defending ability to the fullest. So having various combinations of these factors can make the defending more reliable. Another improvement needed is the defending presets, these are team and situation specific presets which can be set in the advanced formation menu and executed at appropriate time for complete control of the game by user. For instance a team won’t defend the same way in all the games, the defensive strategy may change depending on how strong the opponent is. E.g. Chelsea would not defend the same against hull city and Manchester United. The player roles and other factors change. So having these factors set and saved in formation slots, one can instantly choose the presets and start engaging. You may have plan A and Plan B as a formation alteration, but it’s very open and seems outdated. We need more detailed defending.
contd….
SLIDE TACKLES
1) Normal Slide
The normal slide tackle is the one you see in PES, in this tackle player directly goes to the feet or in the path of the dribble. The slide may or may not be reliable and its accuracy is under partial control of the user.
The next important thing is the recovery of the player (defender), the recovery also must be instant and the cursor MUST NOT change to another player unless the user changes it manually. This is because, after the slide, the player who slides does not get close support of his team mates, by the time the other player gets the ball back. The time is wasted in bringing the other team mate, so the recovery should be made better, which is realism. Many of the players are capable of recovering instantly while they realize that the tackle has failed. Not alone sliding but recovering animation is also the key.
2)Directed Slide
This slide is more of normal sliding, but user could direct the slide in certain direction. The direction does depend on the Left stick’s direction. This must be efficient and reliable in terms of blocking the shot or dribbling past prior to the action. Once you get to know when the player is going to shoot, you know where the goal net is, so a directed slide will throw him in the path of ball, thereby he will slide and block the ball. Here sliding not only means you clear the ball only with the legs, you can use any part of the body except hands. This directed slide is not an important thing, but if it can be implemented with good control, then defense will reach the next level. However if this directed slide is applied as an AI controlled action, then it is well and good. AI should predict the next step prior to the player’s actions. This also does not mean that players make auto-tackle, which was a disaster in PES 2009.
3) Sliding Clearance
If the distance between the player who shoots and the defender is large, the defender is able to judge the path and slide over to avoid it getting in. We can do this in PES with the Superb Super Cancel option. But to what level has it improved the defending? Players slide and block them, but most of the time even veteran defenders give the ball back to the opponent. The rebound is very bad and clearance is very less. As we all know that once a goalkeeper has rushed forward, then no coming back. In that moment the defender guards the net by sliding in the path of the ball and clearing it. This should be improved again with better recovery.
__________________________________________
BLOCK SHOTS WITH RIGHT STICK
In PES, players block the shots and it is not under user’s control. AI defenders sometimes block the shots, which are again unreliable. Many attempts can be easily blocked by defenders and other players. So adding this as a defending control can make the defending part of the game more reliable and detailed.
In previous versions of PES, players could do skills with the Right stick. So going in the same way, why not the defenders use their defending skills of blocking shots with the right stick? Blocking shots is an integral part of defending, so this can be implemented in the game.
Move the right stick, the player lifts the leg to block. The height of the lift must depend on how far the stick was moved. If the stick is moved very far, the player lifts his leg to maximum limit up to which his leg reaches, if the ball is still far from him, he may fall down or go off balance. Since the shot attempt and movement of the ball is very fast, so, only the stick control give us the power to block. It totally depends on user’s skill and his ability to judge the direction and height of ball. So this can give the user more freedom in defending.
Just every block made cannot be perfect, the ball may sometime deflect and go for a corner kick or end up in a own goal. The Right stick can also be used for better interception of passes using the same technique.
Are all good at blocking shots? No, defenders have good ability of doing it. So we introduce some new stat – concentration and reflex.
Stealing and intercepting the balls from the opponent can be implemented, if attempted at wrong timing it’s going to be a foul.
Contd…
BALL CLEARING TYPES
1)DIVING HEADER CLEARANCE
Diving header clearance is absent in PES. Implementation of this is a must for stopping soft goals from distance and from set-pieces. Shots which go at chest height can be stopped easily by some defenders, they just use their head to clear the ball. So in a tight situation, using the head with a dive may lead the player to go off-balance. Risks involved are more, if he clears, it’s good else he might lose the player whom he was marking and the defense will not be organized anymore. Implementation of this needs good animation, not the same animation of scoring with head while diving, but a new set of animations which are different for different heights and few variations. The important thing to be noted is the player’s recovery. He is under pressure and he must instantly react by recovering very quickly and get back in defending , so having both diving and recovering in the same animation can serve it to be reliable .If diving and recovery are separate animations then it’s going to take some response delay leading to tragedy in the defense. These small things add beauty to the game, so we want to see this implemented in the coming versions.
2)CLEARING A BOUNCING BALL
This has two cases, first one is ball is bouncing and is not moving forward (or) slowly moving forward. Second one is, the ball is bouncing and at the same time it is moving forward. In PES, both the balls are cleared in the same way by any defender. How he clears and what is the variation of animation involved? Just two, one way he is standing still and waiting for the ball to near his foot and then clear, the other is the acrobatic move which to some extent is decent, but will it make the game better? We want different animation and in correspondence to that the impact of the clearance should be felt. Here the player recovery depends on the position of the ball after clearance, if it goes out of bounds or into the attacking half, the player may recover slowly and also adjust his socks, etc. But if it is still in the defending half or any deep he has to recover quickly.
Where is the user freedom here? It would be detailed and give more freedom if we have it like this, single tap – normal clearance, double tap – use secondary clearance types, triple tap – go for any acrobatic clearance types. Note that all three should have different animation and post clearance impact on the gameplay and differ with players abilities.
DUFFMAN
freak08, i think you have missed the most important part of making a game. User interaction. How the user interacts with the players and the team. The best AI in the world isnt worth squat unless the user has been giving decent control over the game and feels like the game responds properly to their inputs.
Your definetly a man who echoes alot of my own sentiments ones that i think the majority of people on here fail to understand.
Its all well and good having tactics sliders which is something good offering more scope on how you set up your team basic movements on the pitch and will im sure continue to evolve over the years to come but this cannot come at the expense of user physical input with his cursor assigned player and the depth of control the user has with his stick and buttons.
Fifa10 is highly regarded now not because it offers anything revoluntionery it just offers the user greater player control and accurate,precise user control of power,direction and placement of passes,shots,long passes and through balls with ai that compliments this by moving well off the ball and having a sense of whats happening around it and where it should be in relation to the movements you make with your cursor assigned player.
The wheel doesnt need to be re-invented nor is it rocket science konami just need to understand its a game and we the user want to be able to control everything we do with the ball from the very basics of passing and shooting to the amount of elevation and spin that is added to the ball.Also a more intelligent and logical set piece,penaltie and free kick system one that was perfectly realised in ISS 64 and should be recycled with the technology of today because it was both logical and deep.
Konami back in the day under the banner of ISS/perfect striker developed by majorA produced a series of football games that offered this depth and level of user input that i talk about one that EA are now emulating and one that konami and pes productions continue to ignore much to there detrament and the dismay of there fanbase.
Most of the things you,i freak08 and others talk about and list have been done before by konami themselves before and have already existed in previous generations of consoles.
Watering games down and pandering to the masses stripping all the complexity of user control is not what a game represents as a game represents interactivity where the fun comes from having a learning curve and taming something that at first seems complex but then becomes natural logical and second nature.
So these above posts were for the DEFENDING MODULE and DEFENDING CONTROLS sub-module, like wise we want more sub-modules regarding defending it can be – defending tactics, marking types, defending strategies, etc It would be very helpful if we loyal fans give your suggestions which can improve the game and which give much freedom to the user. We can also discuss if we need any new stats for defenders or something like that, once when all the things are over with defending, we can move to next Module, this way I see our PES get improved very quickly.
Some points regarding defending controls I’ve forgot was about the ‘Jockeying’ – Using Close Control button for jockeying to some extent is reliable, but it does not give the user full control. Once we start jockeying he is beaten easily. So in that situation the abilities of the ball-carrier should be dropped. This drop in the stats should depend on the quality of the defender who is jockeying. So if a experienced and talented defender is marking you and jockeying, your passing and shooting abilities drop by some %. At the same time the defender also has some weakness, he may be vulnerable to a nutmeg or fake, considering all these we want it to be implemented in PES with good response and freedom in defending.
freak08
You have to remember your still controlling a ball it doesnt stick to your player and is a loose entity.For me real football isnt stat driven and this maybe is the problem with pes theres to much stat driven coding going on and stats dictating outcomes and accuracy of passing and shooting rather then ball physics and how the ball behaves in relation to the player and his body position and the users direct input.A defender is beaten either because hes off balance or because he allows the opposition to get behind him gaining a yard of space or presses to tight allowing the opponent to move into the space that the defender leaves.
So in essence a forward should beat a defender based on how well the user controls the forward and the decision made by the cpu defender or human player on how it approaches that situation whether he allows him space or whether he chooses to commit and gamble.
@ Dopecoil
“real football isnt stat driven”
The Player in the real life can think, but the AI in the PES will not think the same as real life.
How AI makes passing in PES?
You see a Team work stat in the formation menu, in that the the ball-carrier has a relation with other players. So the AI passes the ball to another player who has good Team work stat, this way the AI builds up, I’ve tested this with varying the stats.
This is the simple concept how AI works, so going in the same way, we can implement others. Your ideas and reason are acceptable and are solid, but the problem is , will konami ever think of implementing those? You all speak reality, I speak possibility. Achieving reality is far, but achieving the possibility is near. The concept is very simple.. your ideas hold good for Future and are very good. My ideas are for near future. I’m not telling you that you are right or wrong, all ideas has to be considered.
@ Dopecoil
” So in essence a forward should beat a defender based on how well the user controls the forward and the decision made by the cpu defender or human player on how it approaches that situation whether he allows him space or whether he chooses to commit and gamble. ”
You can imagine this and express it here, could you explain the same in terms of coding? How will you code such a situation and how will you make the AI understand it? Well that is difficult and all the coding involves the adjustment in the stats, like how the FORM and PLAYER CONDITION work? in a lower form the players conditions drop by some percentage. like wise you have to think in terms of coding and possibility of implementing.
Regarding the Defending Presets which i’ve explained earlier, It would be nice to have Presets which allow us to dictate either a group or individual players. For example I may have set 4 strategies in the strategy buttons, these change as per the situation. For the corner kick these buttons act as different than the normal game and freekick. Coming back to my point, for defending a corner kick I have set following strategy
X – Mark tightly
[] – Mark only Tall players
O – Plan A
triangle – Plan B
So plan A is something which i have saved in the set-piece editor, like placement of defenders in the near post or far post or both the posts, etc
When the Set-piece is over the strategy revert back to the normal game strategy.
@ Shtoomer, Post 80
We don’t have the essencial relation between tecnichal ability and tactical ability -which- is what determines everything else.
What I meant to say when I mentioned Claude Makelele is that -without- Makelele, the engine of the team functioned differently: the “brand” of football was different.
As I’m sure every Real Madrid fan noticed after Makelele was sold to Chelsea. Zinedine Zidane was very talented, but without Makelele the balance was lost, and the “team chemistry” of the team changed.
By the way, I think it’s very inaccurate to suggest that Makelele could be easily replaced by another defensive midfielder. Real Madrid tried to replace him: but nobody was as good as Makelele at that particular role.
This is why I mentioned in last week’s Interfering With Play, that we need off-the-ball stats for: how the player moves off the ball (tactical approach) and how good the player is at moving without the ball (tactical awareness).
If we have total control over off-the-ball movement, not only is it impossible, but by trying to do so we would also ignore the essence of Football.
Off-the-ball movement should be completely automatic when in possession of the ball -however- we should have the power of dictating what really matters: how we play with time and space -aka- football.
With FIFA10 and PES10 I never feel that I earned the space my team created. I feel like I simply ran at the opponent and the COM simply dictated that this or that space will open-up.
It just doesn’t feels like playing football, because midfield play is not necessary -instead- the best way of creating a situation is by simply dribbling with the ball and passing the ball to wherever the COM tells you to.
Some people say that this is the “exciting” aspect of football, and therefore the aspect of football which should be simulated -BUT- what is so exciting about it when it’s all we ever get to do in these simulation games?
I understand that the game must be dumb in order to fit into the 10 Minute Mold. Therefore we cannot have control in the decisive areas of football, because we are just too smart to have that power.
And this is why, instead of asking for superficial improvements that will never touch the core gameplay mechanics — I’m asking for a new and superior gameplay concept.
PS – Don’t take this the wrong way, it isn’t my intention to give you a lecture or whatever you call it…
freak08
But your looking at it from a paper,scissors,stone perspective or pokeman trading cards where if the forward has better stats then the defender he wins that encounter or vice versa.
All im saying is if your controlling a forward and your in a one on one situation with a defender that outcome should be decided on the decision of the users choice and that of the choice of the cpu controlled defender or human controlled defender ie if you feint one way and the defender commits and you then move in the other direction you win that battle as the defenders is off balance and you gain a split second on him.If you both make the same decision you clash and the outcomes decided on the physics of the ball and the collision system.If the defender guesses right and anticipates your move getting his foot in and winning the ball you loose in that situation.
You do this by offering precise player control and input the ai is programmed to make a decision based on the position of other defenders around him and your position and the level of threat and danger.
Like i have said its not complex its just a case of making everything better more refined more precise defenders never have total control in there box when the opposition is pressing or about them thats why you play high percentages and clear your lines knocking the ball to the sidelines or clearing it down field.
Defending is more about anticipation then reaction its reading danger and moving into the spaces where the opposition will feed the ball into and not letting the opposition get in behind you and you do this by making the right cursor changes tracking runs and not letting players press themselves out of position leaving gaps.
Try fifa10 it does defending very well.
If any of you have played Demon Souls you’ll know where I got this suggestion from…
What if it were possible for a player online to take control of the opposition side in your master league games (when you allow them to)? Maybe you wouldn’t want to do this all the time, maybe you would? Might add a lot of variety to that mode, or it might spoil it, but if you made it optional it might be a nice change and help in terms of creating more variety for ML. As the opposition side I think it would be a lot of fun to face off against someone’s stacked ML team and try to beat them as, say Stoke or some less-than-stellar side… Or, to face them in a CL final and try to ruin their season for them ;)
The only problem would be that you could play against friends who would allow you to win, but if people want to do that so be it I say.
sctoomer 80
I also think more emphasis should be placed on close control – centre forwards should be able to hold the ball up better without having to sprint in the opposite direction to the defenders, as should midfielders be able to keep/shield the ball from the opposition while looking for a pass. Obviously ability stats whould dictate how good/bad each player is at doing these kind of things in matches (ie Xavi will hold the ball under pressure while he picks a pass than George Boateng, and so on…)
Have you not discovered the LT+RT function in fifa10 that allows you keep close control and keep/shield the ball while support comes from your teammates or while looking for a pass,you can do this both in the midfield and with your centre forwards.
Also when the ball is passed to a centre forward you have two choises take the defence on or run into the side channels waiting for support.
The tactical awareness you talk about comes from the user not tactical stats you can be as tactical as you want with the midfield if you have the skill and vision.
Dopecoil does not understands the difference between technical play and tactical play: he thinks everything should revolve around manual/technical “skills”.
I mean, consider this, Dopecoil thinks FIFA10 is close to perfection… am I the only one who thinks that makes no sense?
I have had just about enough of Dopecoil, he is arrogant and disrespectul, he clearly doesn’t understands Football and I will use video evidence to show just how flawed his take on the game is.
I know he will not change his mind, but it will be funny (at least for me) to see how he tries to explain things he does not understands.
I think the issue brought out here is indeed precise. I am one of those rare people who actually concentrate on defending as much on attacking. The good news with PES 2010 is you can defend very well. On Top Player difficulty maintaining a 1-0 lead or striving for a close draw with a smaller team is tremendously pleasing.
Why most players don’t resort to it is easy – the restart button. When talking about realism it is that restart button which throws all notions out of the window. I don’t mind one in a Friendly game but to have the ability in a Season game (quit and start again) makes it convenient for us to forget defending.
I remember Need For Speed 4 High Stakes on the PC it didn’t have any kinda restart button and you would lose if you quit as well as the game would get autosaved. Everytime I raced I would be nervous and sweating as there was no room for error.
Similarly apart from the game mechanics (goalkeepers have to be a priority) I feel it is also essential to look at this aspect of things. When you are playing with the fear of losing a game for good you won’t just work the ball around at the back but clear it like the real thing.
Dopecoil
Okay agreed, but why do a AI player pass the ball back? This is only because the team work is being dropped under the influence of a defender. In reality Not all players just want to go past a defender, there are back passes and dummy runs, The player fears of being intercepted or lose possession. How will you incorporate this Fear in the player’s mind through coding? So its all adjustments in stats. If a player’s technical stat drop, the priority of the next action rearranges, so he decides to back pass. If he has good technical ability, there is a probability of him to attempt the suggested priority overriding the defenders abilities. In that case its all random- he may win the battle or lose it.This is how AI work in PES.
PES is not like a sandbox game, where you expect everything to follow precisely and perfectly. The game involves many factors and even if a single factor goes wrong, the whole football is collapsed. Interlinking all these and making them play like football is a tough challenge.
The first thing to consider is that we play these simulation games from a wide-view perspective; therefore we notice everything, every player on the pitch haves eyes on the back of his head.
In real-life football, how many times have you seen someone loosing possession because he did not know the defender was behind him?
This is where real-football differs from these simulation games. In real-football players do not have eyes on the back of their head, and for the most part they keep their eyes on the ball; therefore it’s easy to understand why they don’t notice what we notice when we watch a match via TV.
It is impossible for us to determine the tactical awareness of each individual; for obvious reasons which can be proven by simple maths. The closest we can get to having enough control over off the ball play -would- be to dictate it, which is easily possible.
At the moment, PES10 or FIFA10 — We simply create space via technical play, whereas the COM dictates the tactical play; the COM tells us where the pass will go.
Therefore, in order to actually play football. It would be necessary to have tactical stats for each individual, and it would be necessary for us to have control of when and how these tactical stats are used.
The thing that Dopecoil does not want to understand, is that these tactical stats would not function on their own; this is not the BAL mode, the COM should not dictate off the ball movement for us.
Every player should have a particular tactical awareness and tactical approach, it should be our job to read the game and use whichever tactic we feel would work best in a particular situation; both when attacking and defending.
Off-the-ball movement determines where you can pass the ball, how you can create space and opportunities.
Now consider the following statement, Dopecoil: “the tactical awareness you talk about comes from the user not tactical stats you can be as tactical as you want with the midfield if you have the skill and vision”.
Does it makes sense?? Is it even possible?
The only reality under such a limiting concept is that the COM will be in charge of the script, the COM will dictate where we can pass the ball; just a matter of reading the obvious like we currently do, and will inevitably give way to yet more repetitive and predictable gameplay.
And of course, if the user haves “the skill and vision” he will easily turn Chelsea into Barcelona FC. I can see why Dopecoil loves FIFA10 so much.
If we have the power -NOT- of “manually” controlling how good each player is without the ball; but instead of using their tactical abilities however we want… This is how (in my opinion) Football should be played from a wide-view perspective.
@98 There are already tactical stats in the game and some of them you can even control when to use.
Tactical awareness: attack, defense, and response ratings
Tactical approach: aggression, player cards such as anchor man, dummy runner, reaction, goal poacher, etc.
Imo the players behave quite well tactically and they do mimic their real life counterparts when off the ball. For me this is the shining light of Pes and it absolutely destroys Fifa in this department. Lots of individuality in this game. It’s just a shame the game has so many other problems.
Well, in my opinion they don’t move at all like their real life counterparts. I do agree that PES is better than FIFA in this respect; but it’s not as specific as it should be.
Konami gives us a very automatic game in which the COM dictates off the play play for us. We do have better individuality in terms of tactical play -but- they pretty much play by themselves.
Logically, Konami cannot give us enough controll over the off the ball movement because then the game would not be dumb enough for the 10 Minute Mold.
So what I’m asking from Konami or EA is to break that mold: give the user the power of actually dictating off the ball play, make it a smart game.
And in doing so, make the pitch larger so that we can play longer and more true-to-life matches. If the game is longer and slower: we could have a lot of new options when we pass the ball because we would have enough time for passing bars, etc, etc.
They need to open-up the experience. I think they should keep polishing their concept of stats and player individuality as it is the essence of football; but they must give us more control over how we use these stats to our advantage.
The game should have enough freedom for us to make our own tactical mistakes. I’m sure I’ve said this a few times already, but I think the game needs proper foundations before anything else.
Realistic off the ball play will go hand-in-hand with passing improvements. I think Passing and Movement needs a massive improvement before we think about anything else.
It’s only a $60 product on a $300 machine but you’re expecting human level intelligence. I doubt that’ll ever happen on the PS3. For a game I think they behave well, more like their counterparts than any other sports game I’ve ever seen.
Lass Diarra is always there protecting his back 4. RVN is always lurking in the box looking for that 1 chance to pounce on the ball. Cristiano Ronaldo will use lots of stepovers and tricks to beat his opponents. Messi will try to singlehandedly destroy the defense. Those are all characteristics of their real life counterparts and behaviour like this is unmatched right now in the gaming world and I’m amazed by how well it works. This is the least of Konami’s problems right now.
@ Stormrider, Post 101
I’m sorry, and I don’t want to come off as arrogant, but you simply don’t understand what’s wrong with the game.
Konami can take the current off the ball movement and simply implement tactical-controls for how we dictate the off the ball movement.
“Lass Diarra is always there protecting his back 4. RVN is always lurking in the box looking for that 1 chance to pounce on the ball. Cristiano Ronaldo will use lots of stepovers and tricks to beat his opponents. Messi will try to singlehandedly destroy the defense” — and they are doing all that FOR you, you are simply following a script which is DICTATED BY THE COM.
In other words, you may think you are playing a “realistic” football simulation, but as a matter of fact you are not playing football at all. That type of concept works fine for something like the BAL mode, but definitely not for the wide-view perspective game.
What I’m saying is simple, give us the power of dictating what the COM currently dictates. The “human level intelligence” would be up to us – HUMANS.
It’s not rocket-science and it is easily possible to do with the current hardware.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but please, do try to understand something before questioning that something. I feel everything was clearly explained in last week’s Interfering With Play, and I think it’s counterproductive to explain obvious things over and over again.
If you think off-the-ball play is “the least of Konami’s problems right now” you really have no idea of what is wrong with the game and why the game is stuck. Which of course, is only convenient for Konami.
Yes you are arrogant. If you don’t want to come off as arrogant then simply don’t lol. I hope you get your head out of your arse long enough to realize that your ideas are not the be all end all of a perfect football game, which you’ve been trying to ram down people’s throats for years now. There are millions of football gamers each with their own views on the perfect game and nobody is really wrong because surprise, everyone enjoys different things.
It seems like what you’re looking for is an ultra sim, where there’s absolutely no scripting involved and the player has absolute control over every single aspect of the pitch and you’d need a million actions per minute using 8 hands with 100 different button combos. I could be wrong but only because your posts are really vague, not really explaining what it is exactly that you want other than more off the ball control and more tactical stats.
Now there’s nothing wrong with that kind of thinking at all. Surely a small niche including yourself and maybe myself would enjoy a game like that but from most developers’ viewpoint and the millions of casual gamers who make up most of their profits, it would become a chore to play the game instead of being fun. I happen to fall into that category. Fun over realism to a certain degree.
You don’t think I know that I’m not playing football at all? I’m playing a video game. If I want to play football I gather my friends and take my ball outside. Maybe that’s something that you need to understand.
Scripts has always been a part of games and I believe it will always continue to be involved. It’s just that some scripts are a lot better than others. I have never believed any Pes to be an ultra sim, even my beloved Pes 3 but it’s a fun take on the sport with heavy scripting that spices up what would otherwise be a mundane experience.
@ Stormrider
Like I have said, you clearly don’t understand, you don’t want to listen. It’s not about controlling everything, it’s about DICTATING the most decisive things.
PES10 — is a mundane experience. Perhaps not for braindead people, but it certainly is mundane for people like myself and Dopecoil and many others who want something more.
Dictating different actions would only require the tap of a button. It would be very easy to do, very very easy to do. And no, we would not need “8 hands with 100 different button combos” at all.
Everything is clearly explained in last week’s Interfering With Play. It is specific enough for you to understand the main idea, but also vague enough for necessary reasons.
My ideas throughout the years have changed a lot as I have actually learned a lot by watching a lot of football very closely. I would completely disagree with what I thought two years ago.
Football is how I take a breather from all the BS going on in my piece of sh*t country — so please, don’t try to lecture me on how I should understand the difference between a video-game and real-football.
This is also why I don’t like the BAL mode. I don’t like the idea of a video-game trying to simulate football that closely.
As for PES… If you want to be taken for granted, you want to give 50 Euros for something that is worth half of what you pay; you go right ahead… But do forgive my “arrogant” persona for simply stating what should be obvious.
Everything I say can be seen on TV. Most of what I say is FACT and if I wanted I could use real-life match footage to argue against any possible argument.
But it’s all very counterproductive because either someone like yourself or like Dopecoil -will- quickly start questioning whatever I say without even listening and understanding what I had to say in the first place.
If you read the comments in last week’s Interfering With Play, you should understand. One thing is certain, you cannot expect to understand anything with that attitude of yours.
You people already have this clear idea of what you want and how it should be -that- at times you are unable to understand simple ideas, not ultra-sim ideas, but simple and easily possible ideas. It’s just BORING and a waste of time. And for the record, do not take HONESTY for arrogance… completely different things.
By the way, you were very RUDE in that last post. So excuse my arrogance -aka- honesty. I was just being honest when I said that you don’t understand, because I know for a FACT that you do not understand.
In my opinion, you and a lot of people don’t know how “fun” a better simulation would be. PES10 is like “soccer for dummies, volume 1″. I happen to think that this believe that simulation will suck the “fun” out of the game is complete nonsense.
Anyways, it would be cool if you responded to me with something that I’m not expecting. If not, I don’t really care.
Regards,
Excuse my rudeness -aka- honesty. See I can play that game too lol.
“PES10 — is a mundane experience. Perhaps not for braindead people”.
“In my opinion, you and a lot of people don’t know how “fun” a better simulation would be. PES10 is like “soccer for dummies, volume 1.”
I wonder why I would ever think you were arrogant with comments like that? Now this may come as a shock but I actually agree with you. Pes10 is mundane and I get bored of it quite fast. If only you stopped being so self centered you’d realize that I never once said Pes10 was so great in the 1st place. I only said a certain aspect of the game was good. Now I might not think it’s the greatest but at least I fully understand that there are a million who do because again this may shock you but everyone has different tastes. To some people the game is perfect in their eyes and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s their enjoyment, not mine, not yours.
Stop acting like you’re the Messiah of Pes. It’s one thing to suggest ideas but it’s a whole other thing to insist them, to constantly try to ram them down everyone’s throats and whoever doesn’t agree with you simply “don’t understand” because they’re a braindead soccer dummy. I mentioned many times that Pes10 has so many problems but again you don’t care because you think I’m just some braindead soccer dummy who’d happily toss Konami $60 every year regardless of whether Pes is good or not. You’re not the only one who longs for improvement.
You were asking for a couple stuff that in my eyes were already in the game, so I was simply pointing them out. I vaguely remember couple years back you kept moaning about introducing a crapload of stats with the general response from everyone being, we already have that. One example, you asked for a chip shot stat. Everyone knows we got that, and yet you still argued with everyone. I kinda remember some stats you mentioned were interesting, but it was that crap attitude of yours, that you always had to be right, that put everyone off.
Until you can embrace other’s opinions and have a decent discussion without always trying to come out on top, I’m done talking to you.
@ Stormrider,
Well I don´t think I act like “the Messiah of Pes”. If you look at how many comments I have posted in the last three months you’ll find that I rarely ever comment anymore.
It’s just that for me this market works very well, newbies will love the new titles and hardcore veterans will sooner or later grow bored of the same old concept.
Konami has shown zero interest in wanting to progress, it is clear that they simply want to sell the same old polished turd year after year.
And to be honest, there are so many limitations… that objectivity is very narrow. Forget about how many different interpretations are possible because that’s BS, we have so many logical limitations that it’s all a matter of prioritizing where it matters.
I just take offense whenever some newbie or casual footy fan tries to questions my current opinion. I do consider other people’s opinions, I have always done so.
And I do agree with you when you say that I WAS an a**hole. But right know you are being hugely biased and judgmental towards myself.
If you think PES10 already offers everything I explained in last week’s Interfering With Play… I do take offense when people like yourself (and Dopecoil) start questioning something they clearly don’t want to understand.
There’s just no communication, I have written a lot of words, in return you have given me nothing. You call me arrogant, but in my opinion that makes you more of an arrogant because you actually think that I don’t listen to other people’s opinions when it’s OBVIOUS that I do care.
Everything you say and keep saying is very easy to understand, it requires zero thinking and I had no problems understanding it; even though you were incredibly vague with everything you have said.
Anyways, I’m keeping my comments to a minimum, perhaps it’s better for me to not post at all anymore; it’s completely pointless.
Post 105 was a complete waste of words.
Take a min to look back. You’re the one that called yourself arrogant and then I simply agreed with you lol. Hey I can also say post 106 is a complete waste of words lol. Why do you bother playing these childish little games?
“I just take offense whenever some newbie or casual footy fan tries to questions my current opinion.”
Now I will go out of my way to point out your arrogance, but only because you seem oblivious to it now even though you “didn’t want to come off as so”. First, what is so special about your opinion on football that God forbid anyone to question? Oh that’s right I forgot you’re the Pes Messiah. Second, how do you know the people you’ve only just started talking to are “newbies or casual footy fan”. That’s arrogance. I’m just pointing out the truth. You may not believe that you act like the Pes Messiah but you do ok? Again just pointing out the truth.
Also seems like I’m not the only one capable of having a mature conversation with you. Maybe that’s when you start asking questions within rather than blaming people. How about instead of stop posting at all you post more maturely and stop patronizing every other poster who crosses your path?
@ Stormrider,
Yes Post 105 and 106 are a complete waste of words. Your opinion is not the truth, it’s that simple
As for PES… I do understand that some people enjoy game: opinion. I also understand that some people hate the game: opinion.
But when someone, in this case you, says that PES already offers something that in FACT it does not offers… Well, that’s plain ignorance.
I am not this dismisive persona that you keep bringing up. I have not scrapped any ideas that are necessary, I do agree with a lot of what Duffman says, also at times with Dave O, etc.
But yourself and Dopecoil, you guys have arguments which can be easily destroyed with video-evidence. Your opinion goes against a FACT… that’s all I’m saying and the only thing I have dismised in the last three months.
@ Dopecoil
Yes, i have discovered the close control in FIFA, but this is not what i meant. Even when the close control triggers are pressed, when a defender runis into the player in possesion, amost always the defender will come away with the ball – in real life there are physical battles to hold/shield the ball, and these do not take place in PES/FIFA at present
Also, ‘real football is not stat driven’ – no football players dont have some invisible stat bank, which determines what they can and cannot do, however they do have mental and physical attributes which make them play the way they do, ie you dont see Sol Campbell playing like and doing the thins Cristiano Ronaldo does, because he cant due to not having the same attributes as CR.
Like I said before, PES plays only the FUN side of football and not the TACTICAL side of football. So you can never call PES as a football simulation. To make PES a FUN + SIMULATION game, it will take at least 2 years of time with additional 100 staffs.
I think we also have to consider what the word “fun” means to every one of us. I mean, I considered PES a “fun” game three years ago.
However, I expected the game to improve in certain areas, at the time I really had no clear idea of how the game can and should improve — the only certain thing is, that I cannot enjoy these “simulation” games anymore. And now I know precisely why.
I feel like Konami have disgraced their more experienced customers because they clearly aren’t interested in meeting their demands; and it does (increasingly) looks like they simply want to sell the same old polished turd to a new generation of newbies, and so on.