Interfering With Play – Tuesday 23rd February 2010
Posted by Dan Bolas in Interfering With Play on Tue 23 Feb
Welcome to this week’s Interfering With Play. I am writing this on Sunday evening this week, so should any outstanding developments occur in the world of PES over the next 48 hours, I assure you it is not ignorance, it is simply time management. I am pleased to see so many people agreeing with my comments surrounding NBA 2K10. I do not for one second claim the title to be ground breaking, nor expect 2K Sports to become a leading title in the world of football gaming, but instead appreciate the level of commitment to detail the company show in the presentation aspect of their sports titles. Presentation in any game is a key aspect of the end product and should be taken into account when looking for the complete package of a title. As I said, it is very interesting to see so many people who agree with the aspect of the way 2K Sports deal. On a slight side note, I am looking forward to picking up a copy of MLB ‘The Show’ to see if it agrees with the hype. With that said, lets crack on with quite a hectic Interfering With Play.
“You’re Big In Japan”
My first point this week is actually thanks to PESGaming.com’s contact with Konami. I have said from day one that we are still very much an independent fan site (something which I hope my next topic will validate) but we do have people from Konami who we are in regular contact with. However, there will still be people who will read that first sentence and claim we have sold out or don’t care about the game anymore. That’s fine, but those people can stop reading right now, because obviously I am a liar!
Still with me, ok, good. Following a fair few e-mails from various communities members, I have been in touch with Konami about getting a copy of Winning Eleven 2010, the Japanese version of Pro Evolution Soccer. The word was that the game was superior to PES in a number of ways, and was a better product. Having heard this, I found myself angry that Konami were treating the EU gamers with contempt and releasing a weaker product in the West. Konami responded, and a couple of days later I was holding a copy of WE2010, complete with Japanese instruction manual and unreadable case!
May I go on record saying, that during the several hours I have spent with the title, there have been no major noticeable differences at all. The game feels near enough identical to Pro Evolution Soccer 2010, with maybe a slightly different animation or two. The only one of these I noticed was one when a player was reaching out for the ball when dribbling to change direction. This animation seemed slightly more fluid. The other difference was the inclusion of the Superstar difficulty, a feature which MUST be included in the next instalment of PES.
On Superstar difficulty opponents defend realistically, goalkeepers react much better to certain types of shots and attacking players try different ways of getting in behind your defence. I have never seen the AI use the long ball tactic as much in PES as I have in one game of WE, especially when losing the game. The defenders still do silly things (head the ball back into their own penalty box) and there is still no blatant penalties being awarded, but at least the game is challenging to a veteran player, something which is slightly lacking in PES 2010.
Of course, people are fully entitled to their opinion, and if having spent a lot of time with PES, you buy Winning Eleven and prefer it, all the more power to you. In my opinion, I am quite good at noticing when something isn’t there, and I don’t see much difference at all between the two games. If you can get your hands on a loaner copy, or have money to burn, it is worth trying Winning Eleven simply for Superstar difficulty, but other than that, the core game play, graphics and AI is the same. A huge note to Konami, and the one that I will include following playing WE is that Superstar difficulty has to be included on future PES and a minimum, and maybe even one more level above too!
“We Are Broken”
For those of you that are unaware, the latest downloadable content was made available by Konami last week. You way wonder why it wasn’t reported on PESGaming.com’s main page, but the simple reason is, it’s a complete waste of time. Most people will have done more transfers themselves in the January window than Konami managed with an actual development team, and the new pair of boots is quite simply embarrassing. The whole update reeks of laziness and quite frankly incompetence on the developers part, and it would have been better not doing an update at all that offering what they have done so far.
Tottenham were active in the January window, with players like Robbie Keane, Kaboul and Hutton all moving around. None of these transfers have occurred on the update, and if you made these changes yourself, the update moves the players back to their old clubs! Konami even put upon downloading the update the warning that ‘not all transfers are up to date’. That is ridiculous. It is like buying the box set of a DVD and when you get to the counter, the cashier saying ‘there are some scenes missing on this DVD’.
Now I am a realist. I know that boot manufacturers are holding off releasing their new lines, as the World Cup is only a few months away and they have the best PR opportunities available during this time. That’s perfectly acceptable and whilst the one pair of boots from Konami isn’t great, at least they have offered something. I also understand the DLC is free, so it’s not like we have had to pay for it. But these are not excuses for incompetence. If you have not downloaded the content yet, and don’t play PES online, I strongly suggest you boycott the download until Konami ‘pull their finger out’ and provide an update worthy of your time. Personally, updated Champion’s League squads and even new licensed teams would go along way to appeasing my frustration about this recent offering, but as I said, I am a realist, so all up to date transfers is a start.
“Must Be Something In The Atmosphere”
Does anyone notice anything different about any of the stadiums in PES when you take away the graphical appearance? I know this is something I have discussed before, and will do in greater detail another time, but to me pitch sizes are all the same, ground textures are all the same and even crowd noises are all the same. The variation occurs by the teams playing not by where the game is taking place.
Playing Ashes 2009, you know when the game is taking place in India by the atmosphere, the weather, the pitch, the outfield and the fans. You play on a different golf course in Tiger Woods, you feel the difference in the way the ball moves and rolls. You go to Wimbledon on Virtua Tennis; it feels a heck of a lot different from New York. So why are football games so backwards? Looking at the San Siro, it’s a completely different prospect to a half full Reebok Stadium. Going to Moscow or Zenit is a much colder experience than travelling to Brazil or Spain, yet on PES, they could all be the same thing! Your comments on this are greatly appreciated.
“It’s All About The Game”
I was going to hold off writing this final piece until next week; however I believe Double D’s column has lead onto it nicely. I have spent a lot of time over the last few weeks with FIFA 10, hoping and trying to understand where all these people were coming from. I have more years of gaming experience than I care to remember. I was the kind of person who would sit for hours in front of the text screens of Championship Manager 93/94. I was the one who would wait 20 minutes for the cassette to load on my spectrum to play just one game of Emlyn Hughes Soccer. I love my football games with a passion, irrelevant of who develops them, and what format they are played upon.
Last year, I wrote a review saying that I believe FIFA 09 was the best the franchise had ever produced and I thoroughly enjoyed certain aspects of the game. It had improved immeasurably over the past few years, and that is was simply a matter of opinion as to whether or not you preferred it to PES, which had improved, but by no means at the same rate. So, along comes FIFA 10, and for the first time, I actually looked forward to a FIFA game. Gone were the buzz words of the PR campaigns and new features that you knew would be on the scrap heap the following year. ‘Let’s FIFA 10’ Simple, to the point, and watching the PR videos, I was optimistic. Do not get me wrong, if FIFA 10 was my preferred video game, which is the one I would be playing, not PES. I have said before, I am not going to waste my free time doing something I don’t enjoy just to be stubborn. It really isn’t my style.
There are certain features on FIFA 10 I love. The set piece editor is something that makes a huge difference as it adds a completely new dimension to the game play, especially when playing against your mates. Now, you know that if you get a corner or a free kick, you have a specific plan from scoring, and will be able to outsmart your opponent. Get good at doing this, and you can build an entire game plan on being a side like Villa, sitting back, counter attacking and knowing that from set pieces, you are going to get your chances. I am more than willing to say I wish the feature was in PES, and it is a feature that Konami need to copy from EA Sports.
I also am a huge fan of the way FIFA has developed its online modes, in particular its Be A Pro mode. Personally, I feel that EA Sports, Konami or a third party need to dedicate an entire gaming franchise just to this one player on the pitch experience to truly get the best out of it, but for the time being I find FIFA’s offering to be much more advanced than the one featured on PES, which still feels far to arcade like.
But onto the pitch, and this is where my view remains the same. I feel FIFA 10 and FIFA 09 are all too similar. Yes the introduction of 360 movement adds something, but for me, I find FIFA to be monotonous and at times, a little boring. I have turned a number of games off half way through for the simple fact I wasn’t enjoying playing them, and these were games I was winning! I find the way the AI attacks unrealistic and bland, and find myself playing the same way with every team.
Of course, these same criticisms can be thrown out into PES as well, but the difference is for me, I enjoy playing PES. My opinion of FIFA is that it is still not as enjoyable to play as PES, either short term or long term, and this can not be confused or mistaken as fact. A fact would be that FIFA has improved over the past few years, due to its new features and game play. A fact would be that FIFA outsells PES. But my feelings and opinions make me find PES a more enjoyable, playable and even realistic football gaming experience. I believe that in PES, I can choose whether to place the shot, chip the shot or go for power, using the shoulder buttons. I can chose which foot my player strikes the ball with depending on my angle of approach and on the % success rate based upon my positioning in relation to the goal and space/time I have. I personally find FIFA’s shooting bland and unrealistic, and find the % of chip shots on one v one opportunities rivals the homing missile on the great Worms 2!
I fully respect everyone’s opinions, whether they differ from my own as some people’s do, or are pretty much the same. As I said, I am not playing blind, I have spent a fair amount of time with FIFA and find it a good game with some nice features, many of which were available in FIFA 09. I don’t believe myself to be a fan boy because I will only play PES as long as I feel it offers me the best football gaming experience. I welcome people discussing all aspects of football gaming on this website. I know Double D’s opinions may differ too, but at the end of the day, football gaming choice is totally down to the individual, and you can’t really argue to change that, it’s not something you or they can be write or wrong in.
That’s your lot this week. Quite a bit to read and digest there and I expect to be writing a follow up to the FIFA section next week, regarding a variety of views. interferingwithplay@hotmail.co.uk is the place to direct your e-mail to. I am always up for a little one on one discussion about topics on that e-mail address via MSN Messenger too. As I mentioned last week, I am still looking for contributors for a new project, in particular PES fans, so if that is something that might interest you, make sure you drop me and e-mail on the above address.
Thanks for Reading
First?
Anyway, You’re right, stadiums all look and feel the same and that’s what ruins the game for me. You could be playing the UCL finals or a World Cup game and FEEl or see no difference. All the nets and pitches are the same, stadiums are always full, it takes away most of the realism. I wish they’d work on this.
I agree with most of your points with regards to both Fifa and PES. My problem is PES isn’t giving me that fun aspect on Next-Gen that I had in the PS2 days. Fifa for me is soul-less and PES is too archaic in movements and bad response times lose the fun
Your big in Japan
This is a good topic to have i think. Im only 21 and i started boarding school in year 9 so like 14 or something, but anyway there were Asian kids there that would bring back Winning Eleven every year and we would compare it to PES and for us, Winning Eleven was always better in some way. It felt smoother, felt less cheap. I think the other thing was that we couldnt understand the commentary so we werent listening to the rubbish that came out of Chris James’ mouth :P
We are broken
When i heard that the transfers were only done to the 15th of jan or something, it just baffled me that they would even bother to go half-way into the window and then stop….maybe its a ruse to make us all think theyre rubbish and then they pull out some cool stuff from their sleeves for 2011….
Must be something in the atmosphere
This is a great point. Me and friends go on about this all the time, theres just no particular atmospheres from the crowd or anything. I would expect an English crowd to sound different to a Spanish crowd coz its quite clearly different on TV. (We think our english crowds are very raw and hooligan-like, the spanish sound like angry emo’s lol). Dont think it helps that the crowd sit still like statues as do the cameramen etc :(
Its all about the game
As far as im concerned, PES is always the better game. It illicits real emotion. Your god-damn pleased when u score, especially when you really earn it, but oh dear when your scored against….the raaaage!! I too just turn off fifa half-way through a game because i simply just cant be bothered anymore, its all very samey. However, they do have things which Konami should copy such as the power bars for passing and through balls. PES FTW :)
ALA 2K Sports Presentation will be greatly welcome in PES 2011!!!
Lets hope that Konami is taking notes!
Didn´t you have something to say to PC gamers?? You asked who plays on PC and said that there were something to be said about it… We answered and we´re still waiting!!
For Dan Bolas,nice to read your review about we2010. I am also buying we2010 instead of pes2010.but I played both before the update,in that time I am completely sure the gameplay was very different,now I cannot try pes2010 after the update because i have sold it…for Dan Bolas,maybe you should try playing pes2010 before the update,maybe it will give us more clear comparison about we2010 n pes2010.
Oh please dan bolas,please try pes2010 without the update,you can do it by erasing gamesave data,of course you can save it to flashdisk first..I am not forcing u to do it, but I am just feel very not satisfied if u didnt try it. It just like unfinished love story.Thanks…….
After seeing what Rockstar Games are capable of doing with the RAGE engine and EUPHORIA physics system it’s quite obvious that change for PES will not come for many, many years. I understand it’s different to make a sports game than any other type of game but, come on! PES is in the stone age in comparison with the good games out there.
What 2k does better than PES is their use of in-game stats. If the game recorded proper stats then the commentry, AI (both CPU and User) can be configured to give a better play-by-play feel.
Exhibit A:
You put together 10 perfect passes in the first half between Messi and Xavi.
Commentary: “Xavi has really combined nicely with Messi today, the chemistry between the two players is truly remarkable.”
TeamVision: AI puts more pressure on Messi and bodies in midfield to try stop the passing between the two players.
My extended TeamVision: Messi starts pulling off even better runs and Xavi’s passing accuracy improves due to the improved “chemistry” between the two players.
Exhibit B:
You’re Barca playing against Chelsea and 70% of your attacks are on the right hand side and two goals have resulted from crosses from that wing.
Commnetary: “Barcelona are really keeping Ashley Cole busy today, they’ve been relentless on the right flank.”
TeamVision: AI puts more bodies on the right, perhaps substitutes Cole who is having a “bad game”.
My extended TeamVision: Henry who’s camping out on the left, gestures for the ball to be switched across to his flank. If you continue to attack on that side, his confidence on the call and team chemistry drops.
If PES begins to record stats like:
Where you like shooting from,
What goals you score (setpieces, long range shots),
Style of play, etc…
Then concepts like true TeamVison and Realistic Broadcast of Matches. are not far fetched.
One of my favourite footy games of alltime, EA’s World Cup 98, had stats popping on-screen as you played, possession stats, offsides, corners. Man of the match appeared near the end of the game. And that was in 1998! in Master League, what’s stopping the other match scores scrolling on the bottom of the screen while your match is underway?
Konami needs to implement USER profiles. So the you can save your button configuration, performance stats for all game modes! It was embarrassing hosting a PES tournament but we couldn’t play 2 vs 2 league/cup and we had to configure buttons before each game. We ended up playing FIFA10. But it crashed when we connected 6 controllers, :)
Completely agree with you on both points, especially about the atmosphere of the stadiums being the same. There are 3 options for KONAMI.
1) They are not offering a large number of stadiums, so why not put a lot more effort into these.
2) Offer more stadiums
3) Do both of the above.
One thing i noticed is that in real world the EPL Stadiums have the crowd really close to the pitch, epecially anfield and old trafford. But in PES, most (if not all) stadiums have a racing track around them, which is not good.
Also, i would seriously welcome the set piece creator in PES 2011. Great idea from EA.
one last point, i think FIFA reads these blogs (about PES) and actually listens to them, but KONAMI doesn’t. shame.
@ post #10, The Kaiser
Absolutely agree. I think what KONAMI needs to do is watch a proper match of football, analyse it, deconstruct it and see what makes the atmosphere ‘real’. THen implement those in the game. Watch this video of Gerrard’s goal in champions league against Olympiakos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSwilt4kfFM
Everything from the celebration, commentary, camera movement, shots of fans and the replay. If they can create that in PES 2011, we’ll have a game on our hands.
^ AHMAD, that’s precisely the approach I am hoping KONAMI takes for 2011 and beyond. They need to “deconstruct” actual games and see what makes a football match tick. Things like “how counter attacks happen” and “what players do off-the-ball” and “What makes a tele broadcast tick.”
There are companies like Amisco that analyse football games. KONAMI, how about spending a few days with those type of people?
Bring console soccer back to it’s rightful home.
“Believe in Footy”
I still love PES…
@ post #10, The Kaiser
Agree too.
Fixing the understanding on how the game works, incl. strategies and “form” will fix the game a great deal.
It would hopefully also address the broken arrow system in PES where your Master League striker that scores 3 times every match has an arrow pointing down for no apparent reason.. The arrow system is like Russian Roulette these days, something that needs to be fixed and brought in line with the actual gameplay.
Great blog.
Good to hear about WE2010. I was wondering about it myself. The problem though is that there are still many different opinions out there. Some people have said the opposite of what you said, whcih is that Superstar is exactly the same as top player, and not worth it. Other have said all of the gameplay is different… If I take your word for it I should probably import this game though because PES 2010 has become too easy for me…
I disagree about the tranfer update being not worth it. I am still debating whether it has changed the refs. I have seen 2 pens in 10 matches since the new update and prior to that only 6 in over 280 matches. It could be coincidence, but only time and more stats will tell. Also, I think the gameplay is now slightly slower, which is a good thing.
A totally agree about the need for an independant Become a Legend game. I think that mode is brilliant and has great potential, but that essentially it needs to become its own game.
Agree about Fifa too. I played quite a bit of 09 actually, and EA haven’t done enough differently to warrant my interest/investment this year.
Agree with what about 2k DB? the the bugs or the crashes of the game, the lack of a decent patch to fix them …. its like reading a digitized nba magazine with booty call music its a crash parade. However you back it up …as we dont have enough trouble already with our games
PES is just crap and dated especially online. Let microsoft handle the servers as Konamis are about as much use as a sewn up flange
Hi,
I left FIFA for ISS a while ago… just a wonderful feeling I discovered with PES as many of us did years ago, I think. So I don’t know about FIFA, every year I try the demo and it feels like the players are floating on the pitch and I don’t get into the game, no feeling at all except for the comments ans presentation, so I stick with PES.
Lazy, uninterested me! Just a choice, no critic at all as I don’t know FIFA.
I quite like PES 2010, it feels like “they (konami) are going in a better way compared to 2008-9″ but there are missing, bugs and that take away a lot of the fun and creates some frustration due to dumbs things. There are a lot of great talking about concepts, gameplay, …
I can agree with them but it isn’t for PES 2011 we should except that even we are right to ask for something astonashing in 2010!! But I’m interested in a 15-20min concept with maybe a larger pitch and more control-off the ball- and concerning dribble.
What I like about PES is that you can edit many things, making the game more the way you like it. You have to “pimp you PES” to get the best out of it, I’d say.
And that’s why I think KONAMI could offer a lot more with very basic stuff for PES 2011 regading PES 2010, not even primary to gameplay.
PIMP YOUR PES:
EDITING/OPTIONS
Editing has also been a part of the PES franchise, I think most of the PES gamers go at least once in the editing mode, to chose kits, load an option file or tweak stats.
I don’t care about licences as long as we can edit. I like to make the game the way I like and you can do that with PES, create your own PES. KONAMI gives a lazy image but we can make the game better by tweaking it our own way. And for me that’s a part of PES.
What’s really frustrating me with KONAMI is that they add options, but they also make steps backwards!
example: socks… I remember having lower socks as well, where did it go? It is really a big matter for them to put low, mid, high socks?
Yes it’s maybe not the priority but extend this little insignifant example to the whole editing, customisable part of PES. It’s there that frustration starts
Anybody already thought the referee was part of your team because of a poor shirt’s color choice?
-3 or 4 kits for each team, offer us the option to mix them, to choose the referee’s shirt color, GK’s color, …
There are tons of example like these, so many little things where KONAMI just “locks” us.
Why the hell put fake teams in ML instead of creating a C-division, a D-division, … that allow us to edit and use those teams? german, russian, scottisch, belgian league…
What a complete game we could have if we could manage this with editing.
Europa league is available, but not as a game mode, why while the Champions League is? how lame is this?
What do they have to do? I assume it’s not that plain hard for programmers to make some more slots available? to allow to mix kits? At least, I hope so!
And maybe add some clear explanations about stats, cards, abilities if not too much asked.
STADIUMS
Stadiums? 3 officials licences, serie A, Eredivisie, Ligue 1 ( not talking about champions league…)
let’s say 60 teams, not even the nationals ones. How many stadiums? not even 30… BIG LOL isn’t it?
Put some fake stadiums, we don’t care, offer us diversity!
- crowd close to the pitch, far, open stadiums, covered stadiums, different pitches, synthetic ones, nets, …
Pick some pitcures of stadiums in case you don’t see the diversity!
CHANTS/COMMENTATORY
64chants slots? with no special attention from KONAMI to the atmosphere in the different stadiums, it’s just not enought, I enjoy playing with Brasil on a samba rythme, and it goes for every different teams.
The supporters are just repetitive… make the action more exciting! We made a good trick, let the supporters cheer, applause?!
The comments… I used to play PES with english comments, well EU copy, english isn’t available anymore! Even setting english on my PS3, it’s not. Please KONAMI?
That said, the comments are almost the same since years… just painly monotone.
I don’t know if they ever listenned to a football game on the radio. It could give KONAMI a good idea on how to make the PES player excited with a good comment, with the right excitation in the voice. I don’t care having 20 repetitve new lines said without any excitation or not regarding the action. On the radio you hear better the crowd’s reaction, I can send record to KONAMI if they can’t find :O
IMMERSION
Well what I said before would add a lot to my game experience but that’s not all of it. They have it very good with the Champions League presentation, the song, it’s immersive and I miss that feeling with other modes. They are just menus…
Think about what happens in real life: sports news, interviews, press conference, videos when the players are coming out the bus, to the stadiums. Players warming up before the game, the referee’s coin flip before the game, replays of other matches of the day.
What do we have in PES? poor modeled celebrations after a winning season and a little picture of the transferred player? Yeah, that’s all of it!
2k were mentionned lately, and the are great ideas from other games which could add hell of a lot to the excitation provided by PES, instead of the frustration we have nowadays.
Regarding presentation of the game, celebration, stats, awards (player of the match, goal of the day,…)
I like to mention the replay mode EA has with Fight Night Round 4. You load the replay mode, you can simply switch all your replays really fast, as a dvd chapter.
What do we have in PES? the same loading time as for a whole game, 2 poor camera angle. The waiting time totally kills all the beauty of showing a great goal, how sad…
BUGS/GAMEPLAY/DIFFICULTY
Rail feeling in pes? well a bit annoying, but I can live with it. You can actually play good passing games.
What really annoys me is that sometimes PES just doesn’t respond to your command! make a pass, pressing high direction, he shoots left, I mean, I can accept he misses the pass but not shooting in the wrong direction.
Someone said(in the forum) PES is knowing what NOT to do, I quite agree with that, but I like it also. PES has always asked us to get used to the new version, to really enjoy it. Trought pass are fine when well used, and timed (for the idea) but the example I mentionned is a bug. And a lot of bugs spoil this PES 2010.
-forced 3 men’s wall? Why can’t we remove players? 2009 we could, step backwards…
-off-sides, make a pass to a player onside, the pass goes to the offside player. And while ignoring the playgame get caught offside anyway.
-advantages, kill someone who just passed the ball, lose the ball, you’ll get nothing, no fault! But get tackled, keep the ball staying on your feet running and wanting to play and you ‘ll get a fault from the referee… the same goes for offside clearance.
-PENALTY
I get one here and there but get mostly not rewarded but it happens during the play also, so maybe it’s the referee/fault system not only the penalty case.
I like the new idea of shooting but the GK are a piece of joke at it.
The same goes for GK during the game, I like them, the only I can’t understand is when they stands doing nothing while the ball sticks in their feet… Make them run forward, to
intercept the ball, time it bad and they get stuck… please KONAMI they can move and shoot a ball!
That’s the part KONAMI has to fix regarding bugs I had playing PES. They are flaws, not acceptable, locking us and giving us that cheat, rail, frustration feeling.
Concerning the gameplay, I’m quite fine with it, variety of goals, actions. I also would like more controls, maybe some more tricks or control over dribbles, passes and -off the ball- play, mostly on runs on the wings, and player like Xavi moving all around, making himself free to get the ball.
But I think that without the bugs I mentionned, KONAMI could offer us a decent PES 2011.
Superstar level and even above was discussed and I really would like to have that! I tweaked a lot of teams strategies, stats, to make the teams play better, different styles, I enjoy but when you play with top teams, the game is just too easy on top player.
CONCLUSION
I don’t write often, english isn’t my langage, I hope it’s not too ugly at reading, I tried to put some of my thoughts about PES 2010 from my point of view, maybe it’s not well
written but I hope it’s understandable ;)
I’m not discussing about a new concept, with the year to year PES.
All I want is a enjoyable game, where I’m in control, without bugs and got excited by the atmosphere of the game.
I’m mostly playing 15min games, trying to pass the ball and trying to pull off some nices moves, I’d like a better game, -off the ball- play, control over passes… but I think all the “basics” stuff should be fixed in 2010 and would add a lot.
Football may be difficult to code but the presentation and immersion feeling is far away from what other games offer to us. And that’s not necessary gameplay based, but animations, music, atmosphere…
Regards
“Must Be Something In The Atmosphere”
I agree with your comments about lack of stadium atmosphere and a feeling of localisation. My thoughts:
- Firstly, the game needs much more stadia. 22 is a joke when Fifa has about 50, and PES5 had about 45. Personally I prefer real-life stadia but some decent generic ones would be ok. The stadium line-up from PES5 is what I want, obviously updated with the likes of the Emirates and Allianz Arena.
- Bring back the stadium attendance setting. Not every game is played in front of a sell-out crowd. Empty seats and few away fans is more realistic.
- Expand on the custom chants. Let us add other stuff like goal cheers, booing etc. If Konami can’t provide a decent atmosphere let the fans customise it without the need for patching.
- Bring the stadium to life. More flags, bring back the flares and firecrackers, banners hanging everywhere, more colourful crowd, fans wearing club shirts, etc…..
is a shame u have to explain urself to them for making ur point.i wanna no something here is it the old pes u talking about or the new version of xbox360 n ps3,coz all that doesn’t really play how u saying it.
Full of bugs, full of frustration, full of ****.
I find PES better for playing against mates. But Fifa10 is better at Be A Pro. The controlls are more subtle than PES, which transaltes well into the BAP model. But you are right, Fifa does feel bland when doing 11v11 matches. My friend and I started playing Virtual Pro Mutliplayer, and both controlling a single player each. With Fifa we prefer this to 11v11. With PES we wouldn’t dream of playing like this, but it is fun.
On the PES10 vs FIFA10 debate.
The thing about FIFA10 is that it takes the same concept that PES has been using for years… and it gives you a lot more control over off the ball movement; and as a result this gives us a WORST game than PES10.
I cannot say that is fact; but at least that’s my opinion. The old PES concept was never supposed to give us so much “manual” control and precision over the off the ball movement of our team.
As a result, FIFA10 does not grows on you; instead it gets worst the more you play it. Because it gives you enough control to make the game a very repetitive and predictable experience.
On the other hand, with PES we never have enough control over the off the ball movement, and although a lot more scripted in certain respects; it is because of this that PES10, at times, plays like a more realistic interpretation of the real thing.
The concept that PES10 and FIFA10 uses was never meant to be used with the “manual” precision that FIFA10 offers to the user. You may be under the impression that FIFA10 requires real levels of skills; but if you look at it from a purely critical and objective perspective… you may realize that FIFA10 offers no real challenge to the user.
PES10 and FIFA10 are both bland and superficial interpretations of the real thing… however FIFA10 took a hugely flawed concept and gave us more control and precision than ever before; they simply gave us more precision and control over the same old gameplay mechanics…
This is why I do not genuinely enjoy FIFA10, because it is OBVIOUS and boring in a very “manual” and precise way. I do not believe there is much scope for real levels of skill, regardless of how precise the game can be, because in my opinion, the concept that they use is still the same one that PES has used for many many years.
Amateur 20
Amateur 20
More poorly thought out dribble from you amateur you really are diluded.
Fifa10 gives you control where as with pes2010 the ball cant even go in the direction you want half the time because the games is so broken.Stray passes that always go to the player you dont want this isnt footie.
I will prove my points with time, I am currently working on a series of video-clips that will prove my points. I am not talking “dribble” like you say…
However, I will not waste my time arguing with words… because in this day and age words are not enough anymore. I will back my OPINION with FACTS — with real-life footage.
I have a very well designed concept of gameplay that will ensure a greater level of control over everything that happens on the pitch; whilst at the same time will guarantee 100% realistic midfield battles.
However, now is not the time to discuss it… eventually you will get to see what I see, probably in two or three months time. You will get to realize how poor your idea of how football should be simulated truly is.
Do NOTE that I technically don’t question your knowledge of the game… Instead I question your idea of how fotball should be simulated; which in FACT, believe it or not, it’s a very flawed and old concept.
The only thing I can ask from you at this point, Dopecoil, is to give me the benefit of the doubt… and also to show more respect towards other people. I’m hoping we can reach a mature argument and take consumer-feedback to the next step.
Regards,
Any games not as good against the cpu as it is against another human,but aleast fifa10 provides more of a challenge against the cpu on world class as you get punished like you would at the top level of football if you make mistakes.Pes2010 on top player is so forgiving with a wall of a defence so you can make the same mistake over and over and still get away with it.
Brilliant now how die hard pes gans are saying how fifa10 is boring and predictable as they have little else to throw at fifa10 when pes2010 is even more boring and predictable,so much so ive lost count how many times ive turned it off mid match due to its awful player collison system and the way the ball sticks to the players now….WTF.
Since when has actually pointing your stick in a direction and the ball going in that direction been a bad thing,pes on the ps2 allowed this why does pes2010 not,is it because you might move in 16 directions but the ai and passing system can only handle 8 directions so the cpu has to compensate,i think so.In other words its a rush job!!
Fifa10 is arguably the best and most simulated football game that has ever been made and close minded pes fans and blind journalism(im looking at you DB and DD)just reaks fanboyism and lack of objectivity.
If it was pes at the level fifa10 now is pes fans would be creaming there pants instead because its ea which isnt popular or fashionable its not given its due.
How many times are pathetic hopeful pes fans going to try and justify that pes2010 is in anyway a good take on football because its not its a bodged coding mess and how many times are konami going to attemp to recycle the same broken tired ps2 formula.
Maybe one in about 10 games of football is a classic the rest are generally boring and predictable as is simulation by its very definition.Games like Gran turismo tend to be more boring then more arcade orientated games like RIDGE RACER but its nice to have the choice if you want more depth and MORE CONTROL!!!!!!.
Amateur
Maybe you should look up the word simulation which generally means something that is trying to replicate something in the real world,so by definition anything that replicates anything that happens in reality is a simulation.
Dopecoil,
You still fail to see the bottom line: it does not matters which game is better between FIFA10 and PES10…
Because at the end of the day, both are boring to play, require the minimum imput from the user, require no real levels of skill, and have no replay value. After two weeks of play you will find no new tricks to the game; it’s the same old concept.
By the way Dopecoil, why do you think your OPINION equals FACT? Grow-up dude… FIFA10 is a f*cking BORING pile of sh*t ARCADE game; as is PES10.
Why is it so hard for you to come to grips with that?? Why is it so hard for you to move on from such a counterproductive and pointless argument?
You have done the same exact identical dance with myself, with Dave O, and with pretty much anyone who doesn’t thinks that your opinion is in fact the truth.
Grow-up man… I come here, I tell you that I was eager to show you an article that I’m currently working on. And you respond to me with more childish insults; assuring me that you already know everything I wanted to share with you.
How can you expect anyone to respect you with that mentality of yours?
Dopecoil,
FIFA10 abnd PES10 are not simulations… the word you are looking for is ARCADE. How thick can you possibly be?
I had alway disregarded fifa up until 09 when major improvements were made which have carried through to 2010. There are things that Pro could use that fifa does such as more controll on the amount of power you use to pass etc. Also i had one online game the other night and lost my temper, it sucked, Fifa have online nailed. I’ve always been a Pro fan but have enjoyed Fifa more in the last couple of years but when you get the actual game of football, pro wins every time. I play a mate who is a Fifa fan and dont belive it is right that he scores every goal against me by lobbing me, thats it. You cant do that in Pro, you have to be creative in your goal scoring not enter a game with the mentality to score one way only. Pro 10 offers the best footbal GAMEPLAY experience in my view.
Dopecoil,
Gran Turismo — will never have the organic nature of footbal. Simulating professional racing will always be boring for logical reasons.
Your arguments all revolve around irrelevant things. I get your point… however you clearly are not listening to other people. You are so eager to express yourself that you are skipping the part where you read and process the information you are given.
Simulating Football wil inevitably be one hell of a game; because Football is organic and entertaining by nature. If you cannot see that, it would clearly show that you don’t understand how football should be simulated.
millions would disagree amateur as would most people in the industry and press now,this site is probably one of konamis last strongholds with a few pes fans left actually playing through pes2010s niggles and frustrations.
At least five of my friends that where pes fans now play fifa over pes with most spending hours in the practise arena honing there skills in 11vs11 practise matches where you can just play free flowing football without the game continually being stop started through fouls and free kicks like in match conditions.Just like real life plays and moves are practised in a predictable way so that in a match the percentage of these plays coming off is higher.
You can watch a game of football now and replicate 99% of those plays in fifa10,you cant do this in pes because half the time the ball will not go in the required direction or will the ai off the ball act in a realistic way.
Your showing yourself to be a foul mouthed idiot that when people dont agree with you gets abusive being also arrogant and opinionated.
I suggest you actually spend some time with fifa10 and wake up to how realistic and simulated it infact is before coming to rash short sighted conclusions.
I totally agree, PES and FIFA have 2 completely different feels to their approach in gameplay. Avid PES fan since the first on PS2, i’ve wasted many an hour on master league. Every year though, I have always purchased it together with FIFA, the latter never managing to grab my attention the way PES has. PES 2008 ruined it for me, FIFA had a solid year 08, and the game holding the title of my favorite changed. Since then, PES has improved to the point where I now enjoy playing it again. There are, though, major problems with the animation, AI levels (the superstar difficulty u mentioned truly excites me … and disappoints me that it was not included in the EU release), and perhaps, as you mentioned, most annoyingly the atmosphere of matches. FIFA is not without it’s problems (I spend the majority of my time studying, playing master league, or playing multiplayer fifa with my flatmates), and on first glance, the chip “glitch” can become a massive annoyance. Perhaps the biggest annoyance being the ability for of my flatmates to consistently finesse from the halfway line and either score or force the keeper into a ridiculously bad save. Manager mode definitely doesn’t have the same appeal as master league (for whatever reason that may be, I just can’t put my finger on it), although I can’t imagine finding matches boring in anyway. But, I think had you spent as much of your time going into depth on FIFA, you would realise the option to minimize the AI assistance on shooting/passing etc changes the dynamics of the game…of course I wouldn’t expect to read such detailed FIFA comments on a PES fansite. For me, PES has completely lost it’s multiplayer appeal, but has perhaps the finest single player aspects in a sporting title for feel and immersion, where as FIFA seems to, although perhaps lack a certain level of single player appeal, have great aspects for both.
In both PES and FIFA there is the same big problem, if you hit sprint there is not enough control for you to stop and turn if players are around you, sprint can only be used if space is ahead on the wings. That means central midfielders are stuck with just passing and passing some more as defenders just simply walk the ball off you if you try & dribble everytime.
This is why on the high difficult settings the computer just keeps passing around midfield not going anywhere as as soon as they try and dribble you win the ball and vice versa.
Very annoying and boring play.
micky p
Try pressing and holding the dash button in fifa10 when you want to slow the ball down or hold it up,your player will then slow the ball down allowing you to back into the opposition player or change direction sharply.
You can also use this to change the momentum of the ball and go round players as you can use the dash button to skin and turn players its more subtle then you think and allows more control of the players.
Hope this helps.
Dopecoil,
It is pointless to argue with you because as far as you are concerned you are right and I am wrong; and that’s the way it is. Why do you even come here?
Do you NOT understand that it is pointless to play football when you have the type of control that FIFA10 gives you?? I would know about that because as far as FIFA goes, I am far more experienced than you.
I have played every FIFA game since 2001, and I have seen their evolution throughout the years; unlike you, you simply jumped ship to EA’s band of fan boys.
Do you feel better about yourself after you insult other people? Because, that’s the feeling I’m getting… that you actually like to insult people.
Listen, I am a genuine hardcore football fan; you on the other hand are NOT. And I know this because you talk and talk and brag about your “experience” but on paper I fail to see anything justifying that you are indeed a genuine football fan.
And from my point of view, I perceive you as a CASUAL football fan, you don’t really like football; you just want to play a 10 Minute ARCADE game like FIFA10.
And I get it… I understand that. But why can’t you understand that genuine hardcore football fans such as myself and dougiedonut want a superior simulation??
Why do you even post under different names?? Surely, if you knew as much as you think you know… you would not be agreeing with yourself via the use of a different user name.
You are an odd person I must say. You brag about being super experienced and at the same time also do childish things like (for example) agreeing with yourself by using a different user name.
I mean… how do you expect me to take you seriously when all you have done so far is repeat and repeat the same POINTLESS argument over and over again??
I will tell you the following for a 2nd and final time: I am working on an article that will expose both PES10 and FIFA10. This article will be very long and will contain a series of video-clips spanning for more than 120 minutes of actual real-life footage.
I ask you this ONE thing, until you get to see the mentioned article — give me the benefit of the doubt… I am more than willing to argue, but let’s argue with OBJECTIVITY and maturity.
If you are not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt; and instead prefer to continue agreeing with yourself… there’s nothing I can actually do about that. So the ball is in your court.
Regards,
Amateur
Lets call it a day on the fighting.I look forward to your upcoming post it sounds interesting and thought provoking.
Ultimetly i dont think mineor your opinion matters as ive got wind that pes productions have something quiet revolutionary in the works so this year may well be very interesting.
regards
Its gets really silly at times when it comes to some people and their oppinnions on the game
AS a football fan I dont care who the publisher is as long as the game is fun, constructed with consideration, and accesible.
I have played Fifa, and PES over the years, always leaning mostly twds PES. Because I found it a more natural experience. However PES2009 (not the current PES) was poor in my oppinion, and FIFA ended up clocking up most miles on my PS3, though until current PES, I felt the PS2 PES 2008 was the last good game till now.
This year PES feels banging, ok animations need to be stepped up more, but otherwise has kept me coming back for more, and more, and more.
In Honesty I havent bought FIFA this year despite owning both games last year and FIFA clocking up the most mileage
1- I have the most worthwhile FIFA to date, there appears so little differance in current FIFA and last one, that I have not felt it worth the investment.
2 – In respect to the differance in stadiums,. atmosphere, has anyone toyed with the customized chants ? Not that is the be all and end all.
What is the deal with People coming on this site posting bile about PES ? If I dont like something, like Celery, I dont feel the need to find out Celery fans and lambast them, despite the fact I think its the biggest waste of Vegetable ever !
Dopecoil, Post 39
That’s all I wanted to hear, let’s call it a day… and when I do get to show you what I want to show you; I will take whatever criticism or argument you may have against it.
Above everything else, I don’t actually care about Konami at this point; what I really want is to simply play a small part in improving customer-feedback, and on improving our understanding of football and how football could be simulated from a wide-view perspective.
At this precise moment, I have nothing to back quotes such as: “what I really want is to simply play a small part on improving our understanding of football and how football could be simulated from a wide-view perspective.”
The mentioned sentences are just mere words backed with absolutely NOTHING. And I am sure that more than one person will not like the tone of the mentioned quote; perhaps perceiving it as arrogance.
I must ask whomever perceives that mentioned quote as arrogant to give me the benefit of the doubt for the time being…
Mere words are not enough anymore, and I think we are capable of giving better and more relevant feedback; the type of feedback that would be backed with real-life footage.
By doing so, we would get to distinguish opinion from fact; which is something that, at the moment, is seriously hurting our credibility as a community or fan-base.
And as far as Konami goes. If Pes Productions have something quiet revolutionary in the works… we will always get to see that by the end of this year.
Regards,
Jon Murphy says about PES 2011
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”
I’ve also been back to Japan to see the team. They started work on PES2011 months ago and as promised the basis for changes has been feedback from fans. The big news from me is that I’ve already played a really, really early version of the code and it blew me away! Obviously I’m sworn to secrecy, but what I’ve seen is the biggest shake up of PES ever! I’m not kidding. It’s awesome, but I can’t say more. “”"”"”"”"”"”
freak08,
That sounds like great news… I hope Konami goes more on the direction of simulation and tries to replicate something we have never seen before.
In my opinion, FIFA10 is arcade-like because it gives us full control over things that, to be honest, make the game very repetitive and predictable.
If Konami manages to replicate the core midfield mechanics of real-life football, I think we would have something revolutionary on our hands. Although I doubt Konami will change the core gameplay mechanics.
Anyways, that piece of news sounds very promising… PES10 is the best football simulation I have played so far; with PES11 I’m hoping to see revolutionary changes to the core gameplay mechanics.
with this and early news hitting, it almost gives me an idea that they have revamped the build-up and slowed down the game’s pace. Also they have admitted that they are considering the Next-gen thing, so we may expect a good out come in the animation and visuals department, and They have clearly stated that they have concentrated in the AI and relation between the team-members, so it indirectly reflects there is something special with the Off the ball movement.
And they also tell us that they have listened to maximum fans’ feedback. If they have, then PES 2011 is the first step in the next-gen football gaming. And if they see this fan’s feedback give them profits, then next year they will be further improving the game and the feedback will play a major role.
I hope they have added many things to ML, so that it can be played with more fun and serious tactics. What is more important is the first gameplay video, and the 90% Build Game Demo.
I hope this time Jon Murphy is telling the truth!!!!!!!!
Says it all really…
freak08 44
Your probably very right about konami slowing down the overall tempo of the game and improving the ai for pes2011.I think also last year they focused a lot of there efforts into the sliders,graphics,card system and improvements to the master league things that would carry over to pes2011 while only making small alterations to the gameplay of pes2009 which arguably improved somethings but made overs worse.
It will be interesting to see if they continue with the emotion engine used in pes2010 and demonstrate in pes2011 that this engine is capable of producing organic animation and a seamless free flowing passing and shooting system when these areas of the game are giving the right amount of tlc and love.The potentials there in pes2010 and there are glimpses at times of the potential of this animation system,i just get the impression they captured loads more movement and passing and shootings animations as well as other areas but run out of dev time and didnt put them all in the game.This also applies to the player,ball physics system which again seems half finished,but again i can see the possible scope there.
Maybe something else has been in the works for some time and is at more of a advanced stage then konami or jon murphy are letting on something that raises the bar and takes the genre to another level,lets just hope its not motion controls and waggle football gaming.
freak08 44
I also remember seabass last year saying they where struggling to capture the true centre of gravity that real footballers have in relation to there movements with the ball,maybe this is something they have nailed now and will make a difference to the way pes feels to play and watch in pes2011.
Also, many of the mo-cap stuffs were not added in the game which were in the promotion video. Now they have got more time than before to make 100s of new animation. My favorite animation would be
- ball trapping in chest/shoulder
- goal keeper stretching one hand while saving
- let-go trap in the shin pad and accelerating to reach the ball.
hmmm, all are in my dreams, come on Konami, bring it in PES 2011 :)
@ KrygiakosPonytale – Totally agree about the Celery. It’s astonishing sometimes how people can’t understand how different people have different tastes, and I think food is a good analogy. You would never say to someone who dislikes beets that they are a squash fanboy and that they are deluded and fooling themselves because beets are far superior (any idiot can see that!!!) to squash.
Get a clue people.
As for the John Murphy post, I’m not putting too much faith in what he says about 2011, but what excites me most is that they aren’t giving up on continuing to make PES 2010 “fresh.” As someone who still plays the game on a daily basis, that’s awesome news. Hopefully this means a new difficulty level, and an improvement to the refs. If it does, and online is as improved as it seems to be based on what a lot of people are saying, I hope reviewers of PES 2011 and Fifa 11 keep this in mind, especially since Fifa never fixed manager mode. I love the idea of a PES which evolved continually throughout the year, and that in itself could be a real revolution. You know when you buy the game that it won’t be static, but constantly evolving (hopefully positively).
freak08
I hope and pray konami deliver a game this year that is representitive of the quality of the pes2009 intro video with those players playing in the rain on a muddy pitch,now that would be next generation pes!!
Dave O
I think konamis winning eleven world cup game due this spring might be just the ticket,maybe a super refined pes2010 or a showcase for what we might be instore for pes2011.
^^ Agreed, hopefully we’re getting back to the days of “Final Evolution.”
Ea arent releasing fifa 11 for ps2 so they have room for current gen, are konami doing this for pes 11?
“That’s all I wanted to hear, let’s call it a day… and when I do get to show you what I want to show you; I will take whatever criticism or argument you may have against it.”
OK, It’s really small!
Dopecoil,
I agree with you on the things you say about passing… Long balls and all types of passes must be more precise.
But without getting into an argument, I think the main issue revolves around the fact that the game is not good enough to allow the user that type of precision.
I feel this is what happens with FIFA 2010. I find it way too easy to send a lobbed through ball to my forwards, and I find midfield play unrealistically straightforward and easy; as well as repetitive and boring.
The real problem for me is that even if FIFA10 was much harder and much more precise -IF- it continued using the same core mechanics; it would still be repetitive and predictable.
The article that I´m working on, revolves around looking at real-football and noticing the repetitive but unpredictable patterns of real-football; and from that evaluation deciding which things are the most ESSENTIAL and CONSISTENT in real-life football.
Because we all know that football will never ever be replicated as it truly is; for many logical reasons. The only way of getting close to that would be by playing 11 vs 11 online.
But as far as the wide-view perspective simulation goes, which is my main interest… I think that football simulations have not improved as much as one would expect because EA and Konami haven’t prioritized correctly.
Why have the precision and feel of FIFA10 when the game itself it’s basically broken from the ground up? I mean I respect that you enjoy playing FIFA10; just as I enjoy playing PES10 and FIFA10 from time to time.
But my point is, that in my opinion, it would be pointless not to admit that both games run on an old and flawed concept. Simply adding more precision and dazzle to the same foundation will never revolutionize the genre.
And strictly speaking about PES, it still suffers from the same flaw… which is that at times it feels as though the team can actually play by itself… because at the end of the day the only thing we do is shot at goal or pass the ball around. But what’s the point when midfield play requires almost no user input?
I think Konami should start thinking about the idea of giving the user the power to dictate different on-the-fly scripts both when attacking or defending. In other words, implementing more substance and difficulty into midfield play; so that we can have free flowing passing… but without turning the game into a repetitive and predictable scoring fest.
How do you think PES10 and FIFA10 can improve in terms of midfield play?
Dopecoil,
In very short words — creating space should be much more difficult; whereas defending should be much more precise and effective. But how can Konami develop a fun but difficult concept for creating play?
You must feel good after doing something like that… good for you,
what a prick. ¬_¬
That Amateur dude with the Zees sucks balls.
I would not read too much into what Jon Murphy says….it is always the same every year.
Greatest PES ever…Listened to Fans, Amazing changes in game play…Online fixed….
I have given Konami the benefit of doubt too many times. I do not believe that Konami has the right dynamics to create a good football game anymore.
But EA has shown its committment to keep moving forward. EA currently has two titles to hit before FIFA 11 and they have remained vocal and transparent about their improvemtents and stress the need to update the title. Fifa World Cup 2010 is one title I am looking forward to. The pitches have been improved. Faces have been re-worked and most of all the shooting has been revamped. Check out the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENx4nDXo6qc
I cannot see how anyone can say Fifa 10 is bad because it didnt improve on a great game of Fifa 09. The fact is that the game has not been degraded either.
PES 2010 is in shambles. It is just a horrible, fast direct passing, no defence, horrible collision, laggy online, lack of control with beautiful grahics games. Fifa on the other hand seems to be doing what ISS was doing back in the day..getting better.
Again this is my just my opinion …but it is an opinion that is shared by millions that have pushed Fifa into the best football simulation on the market today. Numbers do count.
@ Ockrass, Post 63
I fully agree with you about PES.. and particularly when you said the following:
“I have given Konami the benefit of doubt too many times. I do not believe that Konami has the right dynamics to create a good football game anymore.”
It is cool if Jon Murphy says this or that; but at the end of the day it is completely irrelevant… even more so when we consider what has happened in the last 3 years.
That said, I do not agree with you about FIFA. I don’t see anything but a completely broken game when I play FIFA10. Therefore, my personal opinion is that FIFA10 is just as bad or even worst than PES10.
Perhaps FIFA will surprise me this year with FIFA11; however, from what I can judge, strictly considering FACTS… I simply don’t see anything truly revolutionary about either FIFA10 or PES10.
Like you said, it is just an opinion; my opinion… I am very disappointed about the FACT that FIFA10 has sold so many copies. I am disappointed with the people who think FIA10 is a great game… but fact remains that the numbers show it has been successful on the economical end; even if it’s also a fact that the game itself is very superficial.
I think this year will prove many things… people expecting FIFA10 to improve and people expecting FIFA to get stuck — we will get the answer to that question at the end of the year.
My personal bet goes to the second possibility: people expecting FIFA to get stuck… because I don’t think it can improve any further under the same foundation.
Time will tell…
how would anyone bring randomness in any action on the pitch? For example not all passes made by a Ace midfielder is accurate. Not every finisher scores/attempts on goal. so on what factor does this depend on? how will one incorporate this in the game? Can a level indicator ” Balance ” be put so that if the bar is full, he is stable and can do more accurately. so that attempts are worthy. Similarly when a player is running or off-balance, the player’s accuracy is reduced. Since we believe the game’s pace will be reduced, so filling some part of time with balancing the player and attempting the next step would/can be next level in simulation. by this one can also govern the tempo of the game, because if you counter at higher speeds the outcome depends on the quality of player up-front and with player individuality and some user technique one can play like real life. This is just my opinion for simulation.
I’m not convinced by the way football games are at this generation, I expect more technical and tactical approach in the game. Fine tuning the same concept will no more take the game close to simulation.
freak08, Post 65
It is very easily possible I believe… The main problem we currently have is that it is impossible to effectively replace the foundation IF football simulation games continue working under the 10 Minute Simulation Concept.
The game must be DUMB and SUPERFICIAL under such a concept… Can entertainment be dumb and superficial? Have you heard about the Twilight movie? That should answer the question.
But the current-problem that both Konami and EA face is that they don’t have the same fan-base that a dumb and superficial TV Series has…
And at one point or the other, fans of the series will grow-out of the superficial gameplay concept; and will ask for more. Therefore they cannot continue disappointing their fans year after year because then they’ll be risking loosing a considerable part of their fan-base.
The game needs to replace the foundation, the 10 Minute Foundation needs to be replaced by a 40 Minute Foundation which can effectively use all the power of the current-gen software.
The game needs substance, and in order to implement new substance into the game; it will be necessary to have more TIME and space on the pitch.
I am currently working on a very detailed series of video-clips which will expose both PES10 and FIFA10; and I will give my own opinion as to how realistic midfield play could be effectively simulated (with solid substance at its core) without the need of over-complicating things to the point it feels like too much.
Realistic midfield battles would require both realistic off the ball movement and a realistic off the ball concept which does NOT breaks the credibility of the simulation. After achieving a midfield concept that effectively simulates the core gameplay mechanics of real-football; this would open the doors to “manual” ability in terms of passing, marking, and dribbling.
But adding “manual” and precise passing, dribbling, and shooting -under- the same old 10 minute concept will never ever revolutionize the genre; and as a matter of fact, could end up making the game worst than it already is.
You will see what I mean… eventually.
@63 Ockrass Says:
“I have given Konami the benefit of doubt too many times. I do not believe that Konami has the right dynamics to create a good football game anymore. ”
I still find it quite amusing when people level this sort of comment at Konami whilst happily playing a game made by EA. Any criticism levelled at Konami in their recent blip in form could have been said about all of EA’s attempts since the first Fifa until now. Either people have very short memories or they just aren’t old enough to have experienced it.
You have to hand it to EA, their marketing is amazing. Always has been. To actually get people to think that releasing 2 games a year is a good thing. They don’t have to bother putting the world cup in their first game and then get to double their income by releasing a separate game. Amazing!
Amateur 57
Slow the pace and tempo of pes2010 down for pes2011,its to fast when in all truth if it was the speed of fifa10 in the normal speed setting the gameplay of pes2010 would probably be superior.Make the pitches bigger which would make using the length and width of the pitch better with much bigger pockets of space when the game stretched for through balls and long passes.Get the animation to the grade fifa10 is, this is the one of the factors thats stopping people from seeing the genius that lies underneath pes2010s wooden animation if it was as organic and smooth as fifa10,pes2010 would shine.There are great touches there already ie the explosive trap when players with great first touch recieve the ball and passing and shooting animations that vary from player to player but overall its got to step up as animation is everything now.Refine and improve the passing and shooting system its good has a lovely weight and feel plus different amounts of energy in passing and shooting is reflected in the way the ball behaves its just currently to assisted,but theres scope there and somehting to build on.
Konami are getting there though and if they address the speed of play,the refs,pitch sizes and the animation theres no doubt they will have a more realistic and superior game to fifa.
Amateur
Been playing alot of pes2010 again this week and im really enjoying it,i dont no what it is but the ai seems better off the ball and my teams overall reaction to the ball whens its loose or dead seems to be better.I still wish the shooting and passing was more free but im seeing something in pes2010 that i liked about the WE demo,the through ball seems much better as do most over things and overall although i still think play is to fast and exaggerated theres something quite sublime about pes2010 and given some tlc over the next 9 months we may well have something quite special this year.Maybe its the 1.03 update that i re-installed this week or the fact that however good fifa becomes it still lacks the shooting and crossing that pes has and the way the players head the ball better.
I know im definetly buying THE WINNING ELEVEN world cup game for my jap ps3 this spring.
Is it me or has the animation where you put your foot on the ball when you press and hold the run button in re-appeared in pes2010 since the 1.03 update and the close control become better by holding the right trigger?
Dopecoil,
I think it has definitely improved… I don’t remember the game feeling this good before the mentioned update.
And I agree with you about PES10… you are now starting to acknowledge that although the game is highly scripted in terms of off the ball movement; it is also because of that, that at times it plays like a fairly close interpretation of the real thing.
If you stop playing PES10 for two or three weeks, and then you go back to the game after the mentioned time lapse; you should see that PES10 is actually the best PES title to date… I cannot say it’s better than ISS because I’m not familiar with this particular game, but as far as PES goes, I think PES10 is definitely the best one of the lot.
Of course, the same old flaws will start to appear again the more you play the game… however, if you are a purist and you use your imagination it should work just fine, and perhaps the game will grow on you.
The bottom line still is that the game remains an addictive hook with no substance at its core. The things you have mentioned in your last series of posts would clearly improve the game and add that bit more substance to the game.
The funny thing is that when I play PES10 I actually think that the game is closer than many of us (myself included) think. However, I reserve my thoughts for now… because I also saw a lot of potential in PES5; and it is arguable that the game has not improved enough since then, even more so when we consider how many years have gone by.
Anyways, it is good to see that you are now arguing with a lot more maturity and objectivity. I hope this doesn’t changes any time soon.
Regards,
@ 64 Amateur,
I can’t see why you are upset that Fifa has taken over the football gaming title. They simply deserve it. I agree that neither PES or Fifa is without fault, but what separates the two is the amount of flaws or cons compared to the amount of Pros for each title.
That being said, I have acknowledged that PES or Fifa will never bring a “true simulation” of football. It is just not possible. Realism in a game with 22 players on a picth with a constantly moving object will be hard to accomplish. So, with all the suggestions and “ifs” and “buts” about aspects of PES that can be introduced to make the game more realistic here by Dopecoil (no disrespect)and the rest of the team, are all just wishful thinking that cannot be introduced without losing some other important area of gameplay.
However, the fact is simply this. Fifa and PES are two completely different engines that simulate the same sport. PES however has a lot of problems with its presentation. Fifa has fewer. PES has been stagnant, Fifa has improved.
Certain aspects or pros of PES such as shooting, squaring from corners and graphics have been diminished by the cons. Poor reaction times, frozen defenders after a tackle and most of all no online. Yep …No online. It does not work. Of course there are many many more cons but i wont go there.
The problem with Fifa …shooting is weak and…..i don’t really see much problems after that. Defenders can make a tackle and rebound immediately for another. Keepers release the ball much quicker than PES. Collision is clean and simple. 360 degree works perfectly. Tricks are great. Multiple teams/playing modes (ultimate team added recently)…online is superb. Play anyone from anywhere…should i go on.
There are a lot of PES fans that are in denial…Fifa is the new ISS. Improvements are expected and will be realised on Fifa 11 which will include better shooting and improved graphics. Keep denying Fifa …
PES is Dead! Dormant! A title built on past accomplishments and false future hopes. I have moved on ….and so has many more. Who do you think is buying FIFA’s games?
@ 67 Duffman,
Maybe we are not old enough Duffman.
I can’t see why anyone would critize Fifa now for not being able to create a good game 10 years ago. Although not revolutionary, they have revamped and made a decent game…so says many.
But check this. Many are still commending PES for making a great game 10 years ago but is seemingly biased to the fact that the title has stalled. PES has not been able to get its online working since its intro to next gen. I work in a corporate environment and results like that means only one thing….either you are fired or the company faces a drastic loss because of competition. Which one applies to PES.
Now, I still play PES and I still kinda like the game. But its lack of improvements drives me think that they blatantly take us for fools. No transparency with the patches, no updates, no nothing….just silence. Well, until they announce the next release which will be best PES ever made with everything working 100%…..yeah right
Fifa on the other hand has delivered. Yes they have! Check their sales and recent awards. I guess it’s only idiots who dont know anything about football that is buying the game…and smart ppl buying PES.
@ 74 Ockrass,
Well I have no idea what makes you think that the genre cannot improve much more… both PES10 and FIFA10 can easily be two times better.
All Konami and EA have done is produce a DUMB game for what they believe are dumb-consumers. What makes you think a PS3 Console cannot handle a much more superior and realistic simulation?
This is what dissappoints me… it’s not that FIFA10 is selling many copies; it’s that a lot of people think that FIFA10 is a great game when in FACT it isn’t.
I respect your opinion; in the same way, you should also respect the people who think PES10 is better than FIFA10. That said, I do hope you understand how foolish you look when you say that PES10 is Dead! but FIFA10 is near perfection…
No offense, but if you think FIFA10 (the ARCADE GOAL FEST) is near perfection; you have little idea of how football works in real-life and how it could and should be simulated.
Let me guess, looking forwards to the FIFA 2010 World Cup game?? That pretty much tells me all I need to know about your credibility as a so-called football fan…
Have you even considered the fact that neither EA nor Konami has tried a 40 Minute Simulation? Are you NOT aware of the FACT that football should not be diminished to just 10 Minutes of Play?
And what do you think both EA and Konami plan to do for the next five maybe six years? Pack up and leave…
Instead of talking like you have an idea; why don’t you try to be a little bit more realistic? Are you telling me a PS3 Console can only handle better graphics and some superficial manual gimmicks?
I think a lot of people enjoy FIFA10 because most people who call themselves “football fans” do not really like football. By the same logic, most people don’t like good music, and most people do not like good movies; sales prove that fact. It’s an inconvenient truth…
Football Simulation games can still improve to the point of being almost unrecognizable… however, EA does not want you to know that; and at the moment, they have successfully done so.
Fan boys = easy money, the fact that they already released FIFA10 and will also release FIFA 2010 World Cup and then subsequently FIFA 2011… in just one year. Do you really think EA will stop releasing FIFA after 2012? If your answer is no… then why do you think the game is near perfection?
Perhaps Duffman is actually old enough to know better than you… perhaps Dopecoil knows more about it than you do; or perhaps you are just being ignorant and careless because you don’t really care about revolutionary improvement.
At the end of the day, you will buy the FIFA 2010 World Cup game, and then you will also buy FIFA 2011; and then you will buy FIFA 2012… They don’t have to bother putting the world cup in their first game and then get to double their income by releasing a separate game. Amazing marketing indeed,
OCKRASS
I have to jump to your defence hear because i think your points are valid and honest.
As good as the shooting and crossing is in pes2010 it still falls very short in most areas especially defending and defending as a team when you dont have the ball.Theres also other areas like ball possession the counter attack and build up play and when play breaks down,areas,again that fifa10 excels in.Then we come to passing generally which in pes2010 has its limitations either going directly to the player you want or to the player the cpu decides is in a better position,which is restrictive and limits how much creative influence you have of the play most of the time.Theres also a lack of real freedom on the long pass in pes2010,although the ai in pes2010 will let the ball go over the top of them more where as in fifa10 the players always tend to automatically chest trap.
Theres also very noticable problems with the physics collision system in pes and the general stiffness of player movement which is at times akin to turning a artic lorry around,especially,with weaker lower stat players.The midfield also feels very redundant,tending to get in more advanced offensive positions rather then playing more of a holding role and protecting the back four,plus the precise player control needed to control this area of the pitch is lacking as is the right individual traits for central midfielders.
Presentation wise especially players and the champions league mode,are areas where pes2010 excels as are the replays and player entrance scenes beautifall compared to fifa10 as well as the general visual fidelity of replays,although replays are generally better on the xbox360 version of fifa10 but worse on the ps3.
For me though,personally,i think the futures rosy for pes.Konami are more then aware that there game technically on the pitch is miles away from where fifa10 is in terms of fluidity,preciseness and variation in gameplay as well as more user defined control of passing and shooting,which arguably in my opinion would take pes2011 to another level.
Saying this though i feel quite confident that konami have done the right ground work on the rest of the game now over the course of the last three years and will be focusing mostly this year on gameplay and animation overhauling and bringing in wholesale changes to there passing and shooting system as well as the general pace and tempo of the game to bring it more in line with where fifa currently is but in there own magic way.
If they dont it probably will be the last straw for many a pes fan.
Playing Fifa’s Ultimate team mode atm…i dare say i think it’s better than master league!
Once you get your head around how it works, and the bundles there is to do…yeah, i’d say it’s better than master league.
Yeah, but my point is simple… I’m not even arguing about it, I’m just mentioning some basic facts.
FIFA10 gives you more control over a game that is broken from the ground up; on the other hand PES10 is still using the same restrictive concept because they know that the current concept is not good enough to allow that type of control to the user.
Football is not about how creative you can be… even more so when we consider we are NOT really creative in the 1st place. I mean we do play these simulation games from a wide-view perspective, right? So what is so creative about reading the OBVIOUS?
Both PES10 and FIFA10 use an old concept, a concept that is far more appropriate for BAL mode rather than a game played from a wide-view perspective.
Do remember that Football ESSENTIALLY is playing with time and space at the capacity of your limitations; if the mentioned limitations vary only slightly between each team and each individual — the resulting simulation will be repetitive… Football looses it’s meaning and essence.
And with PES10 we do see that, although far more restrictive; it tries to respect the ESSENCE of Football, and it tries to give us a 10 Minute Fix with a bit of realism to it.
On the other hand, with FIFA10 we never really play Football; in my opinion. The game is very unrealistic and completely overlooks the essence of football.
The gameplay concept revolves around giving the user more control over certain areas of the game; with “manual” gimmicks like the dribbling tricks so that the user feels entertained by the over-complicated controls… creating different diversions so that the user doesn’t notices just how monotonous the core gameplay actually is.
My point is simple, how can anyone say that PES10 is better than FIFA10? Or that FIFA10 is better than PES10? Both games are hugely superficial and flawed in the most important area; at the end of the day, all I’m saying is not to confuse FACT with OPINION.
* FACT — both games are dumb and superficial, requiring minimum user input.
* OPINION — some people like one game over the other.
Why is this so hard to accept for some people?
@ 70 and 73 Amatuer,
“This is what disappoints me… it’s not that FIFA10 is selling many copies; it’s that a lot of people think that FIFA10 is a great game when in FACT it isn’t.”
I am not really following you here because you are all over the place. Your above statement says it all. The majority is wrong for choosing Fifa as a good game because YOU state a FACT… that it isn’t. Maybe ..just maybe, you are on the wrong side of the fence here. You really need to re-access what are the implications or decisions for consumers to choose a product over the other. Also look into the possibility that if one product is outselling the other …maybe because it is better in some way or another.
“..I do hope you understand how foolish you look when you say that PES10 is Dead! but FIFA10 is near perfection…”
I never once stated that Fifa is near perfection. Maybe you are reading more than one post at a time…and that maybe a foolish thing to do. I said Fifa is improving.
“I think a lot of people enjoy FIFA10 because most people who call themselves “football fans” do not really like football. By the same logic, most people don’t like good music, and most people do not like good movies; sales prove that fact. It’s an inconvenient truth…”
WHAT? lol….Dude…you must be on something very strong.
Are you saying that ppl who like Fifa are not football fans. Well here is a twist. How about ppl who like Fifa and Pes? How would u define those weirdos? lol.
Are you suggesting that SALES are the new way of measuring how good a product is??
You are really smart… to have figured that out on your own, good for you! you should now feel a lot better about yourself!
Sorry…Post 74 is mine. I forgot to log in.
Amateur @ 73:-
“FIFA10 gives you more control over a game that is broken from the ground up..”
“Football is not about how creative you can be… even more so when we consider we are NOT really creative in the 1st place.”
“My point is simple, how can anyone say that PES10 is better than FIFA10? Or that FIFA10 is better than PES10? …all I’m saying is not to confuse FACT with OPINION.
* FACT — both games are dumb and superficial, requiring minimum user input.
* OPINION — some people like one game over the other.
Amateur, I hope you realize that all the above statements you made are purely based on your own opinion. No facts there at all.
Believe whatever you want to believe… in the end know that you are making a fool out of yourself. By the way, I knew it was you, it was quite obvious.
dougiedonut, Simon McDermott, Duffman, and very few others… are the only people with any credibility around here. The rest of the FIFA10 and PES10 fan-boys who seem so intent on showing that “they know better than you” are seriously deluded.
What a complete waste of time… one comes back here to see that some things never change.
Amateur,
If both games are dumb and superficial that requires minimum user input …and you think that football is not about creativity and you (not we)have no creativity in the first place…
why are you really here and what are you saying?
Yep…I will be buying Fifa World Cup 2010. I have already bought Ultimate add on and I am loving it. It keeps me pushing a lot of buttons and requires a lot of creativity.
I don’t think you will like it.
“dougiedonut, Simon McDermott, Duffman, and very few others… are the only people with any credibility around here. The rest of the FIFA10 and PES10 fan-boys who seem so intent on showing that “they know better than you” are seriously deluded.”
Again….this is just your own little deluded opinion dude.
Who cares…?
Opinions are like assholes….everyone has one and everyone thinks the other persons’ stinks worse than theirs.
Cheers Mate…Lol
You misunderstood what I said, and understandably so, because I did used the wrong words.
However, let me correct the mistake. What I meant to say is that both FIFA10 and PES10 do not require any real levels of creativity or skills; both gameplays concepts are childish and dumb.
My interest is FOOTBALL obviously… I know that Football Simulation could be miles better than it currently is; and I know that both Konami and EA have the technology to make that happen today -IF- they wanted to.
And you will get to see that in time. The thing that disappoints me is that a lot people (you amongst them) are f*cking brain-dead and consistently mistake their own OPINION with FACT.
It’s pathetic — YOU are pathetic… I think I’m going to join with either EA, Konami, or Ubisoft; this is too good to miss out on.
By the way,
Why don’t you PROVE to me that you are correct?? Go on, show me a YouTube video-clip and try to prove me wrong.
Why do you feel the need to quote me? That’s just so ridiculous and childish. And by the way, everything you have said so far sounds like something a 15 year old newbie would say.
Anyways, instead of continuing with this pointless argument… let’s make it simple: why don’t you PROVE that FIFA10 is indeed as good as you say it is?
We have more than enough technology to use video-evidence instead of words. So please, I would love to see how you could possibly prove your point.
GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Ockrass,
You are entitled to your opinion, I am convinced that in FACT PES10 and FIFA10 are very superficial; take that however you want.
My opinion is that from time to time, I can enjoy both PES10 and FIFA10; I do not think one game is better than the other as it depends entirely on the mood.
All I said is that I am fully convinced that in FACT both games are superficial arcade games. I don’t know why you need to get so upset about that… and you asked me why I was here.
Why are you here?? To tell us that FIFA10 is a better game? To tell me that opinions are like assholes… I just don’t get it. If you like FIFA so much — cool — but why do you need to tell what is better and what is worst?
Amateur
You cant say fifa10 is superficial when its player movement system is organic and without doubt the most realistic system ever devised in a footie game,backed up with fantastic running and dribbling control and excellent teamate off the ball movement.
Ive got a load of videos im due to upload of fifa10 on you tube demonstrating how clever the ai is and general defensive and midfield play as well as many other areas of the game that so finely demonstrate fifa10s realism.Even the ball in fifa10 is the correct size,and however much people knock fifa10s ball physics there certainly more realistic then pes2010.
As much as i respect you amateur you do seem very close minded to fifa10s realism and quality and how its single handedly breathed new life and levels of control into the genre,taking something i did not like fifa09 and adding the right ingredients to bring it up to the right grade.
Whats the better option,assisted passing and shooting that stifles user creativity with passes automatically going to a player,or a system where you have precise control and can fully influence creative play and control ball possession.I know what i and many gamers would prefer.
Just look at the players movements in fifa10 and how they move off the ball to recieve passes changing there direction and body position when the balls not always to feet.
I enjoy pes2010 its a good game but its no fifa10,which is ISS on the n64s spiritual sequel with greater levels of evolution to the gameplay without sacrificing realism.
Theres no doubt about it and im a pes fan,fifa10 is the most realistic and simulated football game ever made thats only going to get better.Imagine ea adding even more animations to fifa,getting the facial modelling up to the grade of pes2010 and the quality of replays better,then we will have a perfect game.
Amateur
From my own knowledge of programming,i would say unless konami have been working on a secret project for two years its going to take them at least 3 years to get pes animation and variation in gameplay up to the grade of fifa10,when ea already have a near perfect game.They dont need to do anything new,just refine there game add lots more animations making the action on the pitch even more realistic then it already is.
Imagine the possibilities and where fifa could be this year and beyond.
For the first time in years im excited,pes productions have to produce something revolutionary with animation and ball physics to boot while ea are at the summit giving footie fans a breathtaking take on the sport.Weve never had it so good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amateur
One thing i do disagree with you on heavily is precise control of players and passing and shooting.It does not make fifa10 predictable it does the opposite,opening the game up and giving the user more depth and layers of control as well as offering the player real choice on how the influence play.Pes passing shooting system is a relic of the past being both one dimensional and restrictive and simply has to go.
Dopecoil
Think about it this way…
For me, implementing such “manual” and precise control into a game that uses OLD core gameplay mechanics… is like trying to run before knowing how to walk.
I am not closed minded about FIFA10. On the contrary, it is because I’m not closed minded that I can enjoy both PES10 and FIFA10 from time to time; and I also have an eye for noticing the many flaws of both games.
Although of course you don’t need an expert eye to acknowledge the many obvious flaws…
It’s not that I don’t agree with you, I do agree with many of your points; however, I just don’t see anything that will greatly alter or effectively replace the core foundation that is holding back the genre.
I’m also working on some video-clips, but mine are purely focused in real football. I do appreciate that you are taking the time to show us things via YouTube; which is certainly a lot more objective than simply talking and talking. And does shows you have a genuine interest.
However, my series of video-clips will focus on real-football. And in doing so it will also expose both PES10 and FIFA10: addictive hooks with no substance at their core.
Entertainment can be superficial; SALES prove that, and SALES encourage that… unfortunately.
Regards,
Hi
i’d like to say that i agree with alot that has been said here and i especially like the ideas to add more slots for teams and more leagues in master league…
but the thing i would most like to see in future versions of PES would be for konami to change the way they make the difficulty settings in the game. On top player and proffesional i would like to see the AI play better football, like tracking runners and creating space for themselves or teammates like when the fullback overlaps and the defender tracks him this doesn’t happen in PES.
Basically what im saying is rather than making the opposition so they’re allways stronger and faster thay should make the AI play better more intelligent football.
I hope you understand what i mean :)
J.
J.
I do j because ea are doing it and konami once did with ISS,i even remember off the ball teamates blocking the opposition when they where running into space……..good times.