PES Matters 23rd January 2010
Posted by dougiedonut in PES 2010 News on Sat 23 Jan
Whilst last week’s article was somewhat at a tangent to all things PES, I still feel the core point of the article was about AI in the single player game. I think that my mindset is one that is now trying to look ahead a few years at the future direction of gaming.
Single player games were once the only way to play games. Splitscreen playing then opened up the first real avenue into multiplayer gaming (excusing the types of games where more than one player can play on a single screen – football games being an obvious example). These days more and more games have a single player game tagged on to the real meat of the game – the multiplayer game. As less focus is given to single player games, the amount of effort put into AI routines are reduced, since people will be playing against other people for the real challenge of the game.
Of course football games are still very much reliant on the AI routines they employ. PES 2008 introduced Konami’s new AI system – Teamvision. This was a big step up in trying to improve the AI for the game. There are many people who didn’t take to it, but I have to say I applaud the idea. Yes people worked out how to beat the new system in no time at all, but Konami have been refining it since, and I think it’s getting there. AI for PES is not a simple process. We now have the sliders to help us create our own style of play, which is a fantastic move forward. The AI routines are now configurable, and therefore giving us more options to how we play the game.
One of the biggest challenges to the game is how to realise your own personal style of game. There are millions of people who play the game, and not everyone plays it the same way. There are people who can do amazing things with some teams, which other people would have no idea how to do. To give us this ability is something that marks the progress that the AI is making.
How many people actually have tried to experiment with the sliders? I have a feeling it is a side to the game that not too many people have tried to meddle with that much. One problem with it is that it is not conveniently accessible. Being hidden in a sub menu means that you’re more inclined to leave it, rather than seek it out to experiment with your team.
But, nevertheless, there must be people out there that are using it to great effect, which I think we would all like to hear about. So if you’re a slider-meister, then please leave comments with some tips and tricks for us lesser gaming mortals.
Getting back to the AI in the game, do we have any ideas of the direction we’d like to see gaming AI go for PES? Are you happy for Konami to work alone on how the game should play, or do you think we should have more input on the AI? If so, then what sort of ideas do we have? I can remember a football game on the Sega MegaDrive, the name escapes me – though it could have been called Total Football, which had a phenomenal system which allowed you to decide on where players should be on the pitch at any one time. The pitch was split up into 9 sections. You could define where players should be whenever the ball was in any of these sections. I don’t recall how well the system worked, but the idea was very original, and worthy of mention I feel.
The reason why I was talking about single player games last week, was to try to highlight a general trend in gaming to let us create the challenge for ourselves in games. Instead of gaming companies trying to come up with more and more creative enemy AI in games for us, they now create a virtual world where we can decide how we play. Most multiplayer games these days have a few basic modes and stop at that. There aren’t very many games that go beyond the usual MP modes.
Football games are a different kettle of fish, unless we’re talking about playing 10 v 10 online. Now I don’t want to get into an argument about the online system, but I think it’s fair to say that most gamers would settle for a maximum of 4 v 4 with PES.
Yes there could be other online modes – like Dan’s personal dream of getting a 5 a-side or 7 a-side games, but given the current state of play, these proposed modes are a little ambitious, shall we say? So even if we stick to trying to get 4 a-side games, we will still have to reply on AI for non-human controlled team-mates and opposition. Are current non-human controlled players acceptable? Do we have people who have manipulated the sliders to give optimal control over these players in games?
Personally I think the area is probably due some potentially radical re-thinking. I don’t have handy ideas off the top of my head right now, but I’d like to throw the floor open to you guys for discussion. Not only that, but I would like to invite anyone out there to take centre-stage with possibly next week’s column space with your ideas. If you’d like that, please email me at my usual address.
As Dan as already mentioned this week, we’re going to be kicking off our official feedback sessions shortly. My personal crusade is to bring the online system up to scratch. I think a total revamp of the whole online system is required. With resolutions to the online issues encountered to the whole interface and modes of play. I would like to start an initiative whereby we could design screenshots and menu options of the proposed new solution to put forward to Konami. If anyone would like to help me build these, then please email me and let’s get talking.
For those of you who didn’t think last week’s article was relevant to PES, I hope I’ve redressed the balance for you.
It’s just a shame some people aren’t able to make their comments known in a polite respectful manner. It doesn’t cost anything, and can actually make for a better world – real and virtual.
Thanks for reading.
Dougiedonut
For changing Team style sliders on the fly this could be implemented
http://kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2416
I like to mess about with the sliders (although I wouldn’t class myself an expert on them). I don’t know if it’s just me, but I find that 1) it feels like each slider only has three settings, and 2) PES ends up doing its own thing anyway regardless of how you set it.
As for the system you said you saw on the Sega Mega Drive, I remember seeing something like that in Sensible World Of Soccer 98, where you move player positions depending on where the ball is (e.g. you could set it so that players flood the box when you’re lining up for a cross). Personally, I’d love to see something like that in PES, even more so if it’d help combat what I call “the bungee tactic” (where players bolt into the box and then immediately bolt straight back out again). Sure, it take ages to set up and will only be of interest to obsessive tinkerers like me (unless you just used preset tactics), but I reckon it’d add better tactical nuance to what’s already there and would, in theory, properly dictate how you want to play the game.
” do we have any ideas of the direction we’d like to see gaming AI go for PES? Are you happy for Konami to work alone on how the game should play, or do you think we should have more input on the AI? If so, then what sort of ideas do we have? ”
My Answer for this is here
POST NO. 97
Interfering With Play – Tuesday 19th January 2010
This idea is for AI so that teams play like in real life. thereby getting a signature style individuality for every team. If implemented Arsenal will play like Arsenal and so on..
i have used the slider 2 or 3 times in ML, and there is a noticeable difference.
i remember the first time i used it, i set the sliders so that i can play possession football. the gameplay felt slower and smoother, almost perfect.
the next time i used it, i was playing against a lower team, so i set the sliders so i could play with an attacking strategy, and the gameplay speed increased (above normal).
i would use it for every game, but i just dont, plainly to save time from the hassle, but im not giving up on it altogether. i will use it when i feel i could do with a different strategy.
try it out, i hope you guys like it :D
@post3, the main AI problem seems to be with the goalkeepers and the ref, not the outfield players, i find the AI very good in this department, but the keepers can save an unsaveable top corner bound rocket 1 minute, then stand and watch a pea roller trickle past them without making any attempt to stop the ball, they fumble far too many shots for my liking and very often parry a shot round the post for a corner when the shot was well off target, and the animation of the keepers when diving is terrible, needs a lot of work in this area.
Now the refs, how come i can be chopped down from behind in the box time after time and never get a penalty, yet if i so much as rub shoulders with another player the ref blows for a foul, its bollox, and why do Konami remove good features from past versions of the game, like when you commited a foul and a symbol popped up in the corner of the screen indicating that the ref had played the advantage, then he would book the offending player next time the ball went out of play, this was a superb feature but was removed, we want it back please, Konami, sort out the refs, they might be blind in the j-league but we expect a little more.
Wish list for pes 2011
1, as mentioned above,
2, better animation all round, its not robosoccer.
3, far less shadows from the stadium on a daytime match, i only play night games because i find it so off putting.
3, Nets, these are the worst nets in any football game ever, give us a choice of goal style, net style, net colour etc, it can’t be that difficult surely.
4, it’s not difficult, and don’t call me shirley.
5, where has the pes shop gone, did the administators get called in or something, open up the damn shop again.
6, overhaul the editing, its very limited.
Thats about all i can think of at the moment, do you agree, what else would you want to see in pes 2011.
I only play online and always use the sliders. I find them fantastic for controlling the game and can definitely see how they effect the game. If you put play support 75+ you can see the players making more runs forward rather than staying behind the man with the ball. Also increasing the pressure slider is a great way to impose yourself in a game and nick a vital goal. I think the system is one of the best improvements to the game in 2010.
Im not really a ’slider meister’ but my tip would be to reduce your defensive line slide to around 25 if your playing teams with numerous fast attackers such as barca or argentina. It stops them making fast attacks down the wing and getting in around the back of your defence.
I have a lot of ideas that (in my opinion) would fit-in perfectly with the concept Konami seems to be going for.
Some people here know that I’me very critical of PES, or at least DD and Dan Bolas would know about that. And I gotta admit that PES10 is actually a good effort from Konami, and they do deserve some credit for it.
I have been playing both PES10 and FIFA10 lately, and I am convinced that PES10 is clearly the better game; simply because it plays like (what I consider) football.
Some people say that PES is very arcade-like and that FIFA is the more realistic simulation… but this simply isn’t true.
PES does haves very arcade-like animations, a clunky feel, etc. But whenever I watch real-football, I’m reminded that PES is still the most realistic simulation.
So far, I’m convincded that PES10 is the best of the series. I think Konami have done many things right with PES10, as it does shows plenty of potential.
I guess most of my disappointment with the game is because I feel like PES10 should’ve been PES09.
The main problem with PES10 is that Konami is holding on to an outdated off-the-ball concept. The balance between what the COM controls and what the HUMAN controls is badly engineered, and should be replaced.
I have a very clear idea of how Konami can improve on it, and I am 100% convinced it would fit-in perfectly with their gameplay concept.
My main concern is that Konami may not take it to the next level because of all the narrow-minded fans. And may instead release a PES10.5
I think Konami should take it to the next level, stop flirting with simulation and finally move on.
I have decided to give the best feedback I can come up with, after years of over-analizing things… and I’m hoping someone from Konami gets to see it; although it doesn’t really concerns me.
I use them and the card system and teams alter it does alter the style of play.
Think talk of 4 v 4 is premature as even 1 v 1 is mostly a disaster. Perhaps their ‘dedicated online team’ should focus on 1 v 1 first.
I have used the sliders quite a few times and it works like a charm. The most recent was in a match I played against my brother. He was Barcelona and I was Man United. And as you all know, all of the Barca players are super fast and very hard to defend against. I lost the first game we played 4-2. I challenged him to a second game and changed the sliders to suite my style of play. Because I like to attack, attack and attack even more, I kept my defence compact and Carrick dropping back to help out in defence. When in possession, the players pushing forward and finding space allowing more options. In end I won 3-1.
Konami just need to employ dedicated servers. Can they forward it don’t know. I don’t really have problems online but i definitely know its not always stable
I’ve been using the sliders to great effect during Master League with Man City. I had opted for a 3-4-3, with the 3 strikers nestled close together. The sliders worked because I play with 2 defensive midfielders for cover and prefer attacking very wide with my LM & RM and balancing that by playing some good ol Joga Bonito straight thru the middle. The custom tactics I used allow me to play a narrow formation for compactness then have the players stretch out wide when I get possesion. The sliders also help me with variation within my attack, they enable me to use erarly crosses to great effect, since I play with 3 SS, they can start their forays into the box from deep. And the tactics get my strikers to spread out, near, centre and far post. When I’m losing or playing a mediocre team, I normally flick the pressing slider to above 85 to put a bit more pressure on the team. Helps with stopping the AI’s back passing. I would play with 2 DM, had it not been for the tactics sliders.
I think the sliders work best in ML where you have time to fine tune it to your spefic team. It enables me to play with good but not great players (Aside from Tevez, Kompany & Micah Richards, they’re beasts). This makes for a much better ML experience, and adds sufficient difficulty to keep Master League fresh. Wish the default sliders were done properly across all teams. The AI plays bad fro some teams simply because the sliders aren’t set properly by Konami.
Apologies for the long post.
Before even thinking about something like 4 v 4 — 1 v 1 should play a lot better. And even if I could play 4 v 4; I would still prefer to play 1 v 1.
By the way, why should we apologies for long posts?
well lets start by saying i am footballer but im over 30 so not really playing much so this is my outlet. I have a crew of 4 that take the game pretty serious. we have drafts so that no one has the same player on their team. So that means you must pick players based on your style of play(very fun draft). Well i say all that to say what we end up with is not always our ideal teams and we must do a lot of tinkering to get the players playing right. So here is what i think
1. the Sliders i use and like someone posted above i think there are really only 3 settings but they do work. I use the the attacking style to make my players play with width, the position switch i make 0 cause what i found was no matter what you formation you set for your team the AI would have them all over the place and i want my players in the positions i put them in. The defensive line i use depending on what i’m trying to do (push for a goal or soak up pressure) but dont set under 50 as the defenders allow to much space for the midfield. I toyed with the settings but these three make the difference.
2. The Cards are what makes the player but what i found out is you must check this every time you play you be surprised that your not even playing with the player at 100%
3. the most important though is the tactics counter attack and all out attack after defending a corner works. pressure is a must use but not during the whole game you have to fool your opponent. and of course use the 2 extra formations you have to keep your opponent guessing where he can find holes. i use a 4 4 2, 5 4 1, and a 4 3 3
om my i forgot the most most important thing
4. the Conscious cards if you ever wonder what the hell is Puyol doing making a run into the box he should be defending well this is the reason you must change this at the beginning of every match i keep my defenders and def mid on defending my central, wide mids and strikers i changed up depending on formation balance or attack but trust me this is the difference maker when it comes to defending
using the sliders online, does it make a difference against the so called super clubs, with their fast players??
@17 torrent
It really depends on the skill of the opposition and the condition arrow of the ’superhuman’ player in the individual match. If you increase the pressure slider then you will notice that your players stay a lot closer to the opposition. I always find that man marking the ronaldo’s and messi’s in addition to the sliders goes some way in reducing their effectiveness online.
I found this video on youtube useful for getting to grasps with the fundamentals of the sliders but you really have to experiment with different teams to get the most out of it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfED92JmfcE
@ Amateur
I’m sorry Amateur but PES 2010 hardly resembles a real game of football, unless you think all goalkeepers are retarded?
@ 18 cheers mate
@14 Amateur
LOL, no worries mate, I won’t apologise for long comments anymore.
DD, In think that bringing in preset tactics may assist in getting people to use the sliders functionality. And possibly incorporate them into the L2 strategy buttons.
@ Cybertooth
I agree with you… I said a lot of things in that post without giving them much thought, which I usually never do.
But what I was trying to say is that, in my opinion, I think PES10 is a more realistic simulation than FIFA10 -however- I do consider both games outdated and one-dimensional.
And at times I prefer playing FIFA10. But again, the point I was trying to make had little to do with PES10 being the better game and more to do with PES10 being the more realistic simulation.
If you look past the crappy animations, you might see that PES10 is more realistic than FIFA10. Although I would understand if you disagree; it´s a matter of opinion after all.
“I can remember a football game on the Sega MegaDrive, the name escapes me – though it could have been called Total Football, which had a phenomenal system which allowed you to decide on where players should be on the pitch at any one time. The pitch was split up into 9 sections.”
I don’t remember the game on the sega megadrive you are thinking of, however Player Manager (the management version of Kick Off) on the Amiga used exactly this system, and if I remember rightly you could edit every players position depending on where the ball was on the field of play (as you said, divided into 9 sections) AND wether you were in possession or not, which was awesome and I would love to see a similar system in future versions of PES. I love the idea of devising a plan, and certain individual player attributes affect his ability and desire to either follow that plan or simply do his own thing.
Also, now that I think about it, I wonder if Player Manager was the inspiration for the PES Master League mode, as it is really, really similar (which is no bad thing of course). I would actually like to see the Master League become a separate entity from PES, a game in its own right. As a standalone product, it would get the attention from the production process that it is so deserving of. In fact, I think that breaking the various game modes of PES up into separate products would make a lot of sense, not just from a production point of view, but also from a marketing and licensing point of view. I believe that this would allow PES to undergo the evolution (no pun intended) that it needs. Shake things up a bit.
At present, each of the differing game modes feels a little underdeveloped, as Konami struggle to stuff everything together into a single game. I mean, there is only so much the team can do in the space of a year, and there is only so much information that can be crammed onto a single dvd! Switching from dvds to online distribution would also be incredibly liberating, a more diffused model of production and distribution is long over due in my opinion, more about that some other time though! Anyway, break up game, thats my 2 cents on how to push things forward. Obviously, use the same game engine across the different games, but make the different competitions and game modes into separate, standalone games, each would then have the space for their own unique features, and could really flourish.
OK, I better stop there. My beer is getting warm… ;D