http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4wCqgBTIyA
Whatsup Lads,
What a job Konami have done with the trailer. Out of nowhere they have struck first blood against EA and the battle against FIFA 13 has commenced. It might seem too early to even think about Pes 2013 when there is 6 months left before it’s released but Konami have started the hype train to achieve one thing; awareness. PES is changing, we the fans are being listened to. There’s no bullshit. Most importantly, EVERYBODY is talking about Pes. Talk about stealing FIFA’s Euro DLC! Surely a coincidence?!
While the marketing team at Konami deserve credit, I have to admit the footage fully backs it up. The movement looks amazing. The direction of the game seems to be almost (dare I say it) hardcore PES. The tagline “Talk is cheap” is a serious statement. The potential of the game has caught every football gamers attention. In this day and age, innovation is rare. Potentially, PES has everything going for it. I have wanted PES to go back to it’s roots for ages. I want an incredibly hard game to master. I want to be beaten 10-0 by a far superior player. Leave FIFA have the casual market. Leave it have the licenses. Daymos will sort us XBOX fans out and the PS3 option files are equally amazing.
The confidence Konami seem to have so early in the year fills me with excitement. Shooting and keepers are mentioned in the first few lines. They are tackling those problems head on. There is no way Konami will screw the shooting and keepers up. That is almost a guarantee. It’s an exciting time to be a PES fan that’s for sure. Get in touch below and let me know your feelings on the trailer and details released.
Check out my YouTube Video in which I go into more detail on those features, including what the forums are buzzing about.
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Talk is Cheap!! Trailer was average!!
Just judge the Game when released.
The End.
So PES should innovate by going back to it’s roots? Oxymoron alert.
Where exactly is the innovation in PES 2013? As the press release states, shooting and goalkeepers are issues getting sorted thanks to fan feedback. It is supposed to be engineered for freedom yet scripting is one of the main issues with PES2012. Improving the same old, unworthy of next-gen engine is not innovating in my book.
While i agree its time PES went back to it’s roots, i have to say they have a mountain to climb.
You seem to forget that with EA’s Creation Centre, anyone can edit now on fifa….
not only that, also they have licenses for GK gloves too!
i uploaded my face on Fifa 12 yesterday, just like i did with Pro Evo when i bought the game…. While the option files can be covered and stuff is done by kitmakers and face creators, i have to say, when i uploaded my gameface onto Fifa12, it was like looking at a mirror.
Sorry Konami, most likely u will lose AGAIN just like R. Madrid lost yesterday when they thought they had won!
P.S. if i had to choose between Fifa and Pro Evo, i’d go for Pro Evo just as long as thy keep it SIMPLE.
A gamer doesnt want complicated stuff, just to sit down and relax and, have FUN!
@James goblin
It’s easy twist what someone says. I said PES needs to innovate the current market for footy games. going back to its roots doesn’t mean having it the same as pes 3,4,5 etc. What would you class as innovation? Every game iv played this year have been the same, with little changes. Uncharted is Tomb raider. Mw3 is goldeneye. The same type games except different. Until ai can be self programable with human like capilbilities, no innovation will ever truly come. But, pes is still innovating on its own scale. If you are complaining about scripting, I have bad news for ya. Their is scripting in every game, even the next gen won’t stop scripting.
@james Goblin – good point
@Barry
Are the Barca boys ever gonna go away? Will konami ever look to introduce a new online ranking system to introduce smaller teams??
@Raul
PES 2013 could be perfect if they find the balance between rewarding better players. In MLO this year, crap cheaters are top of the leaderboards. PES needs to be hard to master. No more shoot assist or pass ping pong assist. A player that learns the game and it’s tips and tricks,should in theory be a beter player. (eg. sandy ravage on MW3)
It should be possible to beat any team if you are skilled enough. In PES and FIFA 80% is the team picked and the players form. That and speed makes an average player great. I loved FIFA 10 but after that felt it was terrible. I agree Konami have their work cut out but they can do it
@PES 2013 is coming
I can’t comment on that yet no. Thats a massive issue. I have a well thought out suggestion to combat this but to summerise, reward players more. Have 5 leagues. Same can apply for MLO. Each League caters for different graded teams. Still have the free mode as of now. Each team belongs to a grade. If I pick Barca and you pick Wigan, it’s A v C. If i beat you 4-1, I only get a base 1 point + 1 point a goal. However even though you lose, you get a base 3 points for being a C team. Also, you get 3 for your goal. The bigger the gap in team skill, the more reward for those of us who don’t want barca the whole time. A big thing I say is to Introduce random missions too. How about this? Stop your opponent scoring with his top striker: AGUERO. or Recieve less than 2 yellow cards. That way even if you lose 20-0, but stop AGUERO scoring, you get 5 points. Just a few examples.
Barry
I don’t expect innovation. I’d be happy if they’d stop deliberately ignoring the potential of the PS3. First Seabass, being the genius he is, played his game with the D Pad so he didn’t think it was necessary to implement 360 degree dribbling until it got ridiculous.
Now it’s the same thing, or even worse, to have them ignore the pressure sensitive buttons. Can you imagine watching a game on the telly where the players were restricted to move ONLY at 3 different speeds (slow, medium, fast)?
Now imagine the world of possibilities that would open for PES if your player responded to each of the acceleration stages from 0 to 100 with the R2 button. This would turn the game upside down, they couldn’t get away with using the same old running and shooting animations as they do now.
This is the best example I can think of and it’s not innovation, it’s merely adapting to a new console, stepping into new grounds. We all agree, even Konami, that their gameplan has not worked in this gen yet they’re still adding to it.
@Barry
I do like the sound of your ideas Barry.Yeah, its a massive massive issue for me too mate, as its the only reason i dont play the game.
Another idea, when Setting up a Matchroom, we should be able to select ANY league we want i.e. Premier league ONLY– like the way you do with countries.
Or
2points for super teams
5 points for top range teams
10 points for mid range teams
15 points for small teams
And we have to earn the points not just by selecting the best teams you know, 1point for every goal scored Minus goals conceded, even minus points for yellow and red cards.
Losing teams can gain points too with Fair play no cards gain points by getting man of the match ie the goalkeeper
Overall scoring – defenders get more points over midfielders over strikers .
more points for scoring off a set pieces, corner, getting a hat trick, coming off the bench and scoring or even winning when coming from behind etc
Hope they sort it out
@ James goblin
Great example man. I love debates so appreciate the input. I understand what u r saying. I’m sure if you, pes 2013 and I got locked in a room and would be only let out after developing ideas of truly innovating PES, we would manage it. The acceleration feature would be great. I would love the trigger buttons to dictate which foot you used to kick the ball. If I hold LT, every pass and shot would be the outcome. Would add a massive part to passing and shooting, too automated now
@pes2013
It seems you share some of my ideas. A lot of us PES fans seem to want the same thing. MLO needs to truly sorted this year. Third year, no excuses. I reckon it will though. If not it could be the end. Points per game needs to happen def.
Cheaters will u pick the smaller teams, lag u out, then collect their points, no matter how great the game becomes, online still sucks, something they yet 2 master, maybe 1 day they suprize us all.
I think that PES should have gone completely hardcore years ago, and by completely hardcore I mean, drop the leagues, forget all the little 11 vs 11 modes, and just offer a simple and solid effort.
If I had it in my power I would start an entirely new franchise, basically the Mortal Kombat of football sims, the game would be simple: classic players, current gen players, and a simple online mode.
The online mode would work around a one per one selection, meaning that if Player-A selects Romario as his first pick, then Romario would be unavailable by the time Player-B has his first pick, and the same procedure until you select the whole fantasy team.
That would ensure that, due to the diversity of opinion, you would rarely play against the same team. Furthermore, it would ensure that David vs Goliath would be a rare occurrence, seeing how the available players would all be world class.
Added to that, licensed uniforms from the past and present would also be necessary in order to give the game an official look, as well as real stadiums from the past (Old Wembley was awesome) and present.
By reducing the game into an arcade-type character-select video game, not only does it completely distances itself from FIFA, but it allows more time and more money to go into what really matters: player individuality, animations, graphics, etc, etc. It would be difficult for FIFA to compete gameplay-wise, due to the fact that EA Sports would have their hands full with all their little modes, added to the fact that EA Sports is genuinely not interested in producing a hardcore football sim.
I find it odd that in year 2012, we still cannot see how Romario would play with Zinedine Zidane, we still cannot see Zinedine Zidane reanimated with all his trademark elegance and trickery, the mentioned fact is just one out of many facts that reveals how conservative and pleased-with-itself the video game industry has become in the last decade or so.
I mean, with the 2K Series, you can use Michael Jordan (with all his trademark movements and mannerisms) and play him against Kobe Bryant, that’s very cool if you are a hardcore basketball fan, and it certainly sells very well.
Back in the PS2 days, PES used to be the 2K of football games, though sadly that’s not the case anymore…. Konami has gone for the gimmicks, and PES has become a franchise that is generally disliked by both casual and hardcore gamers.
Hopefully, PES13 will show a clear change in direction, but real sign of change is not merely saying that “talk is cheap”, a real sign of change would be if Konami stops the production of PS2-PES games, a real sign of change would be if Konami comes up with a completely new control scheme, etc. At the end of the day, my prediction is that Konami will continue doing exactly the same thing it’s been doing for the past three years or so: not nearly enough.
I’m hoping to see the 2K of football games sooner rather than later, but I’ve given up on Konami making it happen; you’re either hardcore or you’re not, it’s impossible to please both casual and hardcore gamers with the same game.
@seabass
I know man, but that can be sorted, espiceally the lag cheat. I reckon konami need to give players a more detailed feedback system. Have a 3 star ranking. You get a star for completing a full match, star for FairPlay and then another user feedback. Use the stars as a currency, eg convert 25 stars into €5,000,000. Also get stars for consecutive matches, win streaks, etc
@ameteur
I always enjoy your comments man. Read a lot of your older stuff before I started writing as a columnist. I definetly agree with a hardcore PES. Look at dark souls, PES should go that route. Make it worth your while, a good player should be rewarded, not the other way. PES 2013 will be better than 2012. Whether that’s enough for some people is a different story. Personally I am enjoying it, especially my master league chronicles. If the speed is fixed as well as keepers and shooting a bit better, pes 2013 will be a day 1 buy for offline players.
@ James Goblin
Fully agree, though I think that counts as innovation, adapting to a new system is innovative.
And it’s not only the pressure sensitive R2 and L2 buttons, it’s even worst with the left analog stick, which is still used as if it was a D-Pad with more directions to it, thus effectively not making any use of 70% of the range of movement that the left analog stick has to offer.
I think the state of video games in general is very sad (or am I missing something?), by now, a PS4 console should be one or two years away, better graphics, with better pressure sensitive buttons and better analog buttons.
But irrespective of a PS4 console coming out or not, I feel that Konami can still turn back the clock, but I know they will fail miserably, simply because they need to ditch many things in order to focus on the fundamental things, and they simply are not doing that, perhaps Konami has accepted defeat and is now simply collecting cash via the PES franchise.
@ Barry
As my skepticism clearly reflects, I have given up on the PES franchise, I simply don’t see why Konami deserves any credibility at this point; and don’t get me, even though PES12 is very dated, FIFA12 is equally dated and fundamentally worst, because at least PES12 has the ingredients that are required in order to produce a solid (albeit not exactly revolutionary) effort.
Most of my frustration with the PES franchise, is simply the fact that I know that if I had power over the direction of the franchise, I could take PES12 and transform it into a much better game: the number of animations (albeit robotic) are enough, but the execution is terrible.
The perfect example of the mentioned fact is the Link Feints System,
—————————————————————————
Link Feints System: On Paper
—————————————————————————-
1st — Roulette: Left, Right
2nd — Flip Flap: Left, Right
3rd — Step Over Feint: Left, Right
4th — Running Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
5th — Reverse Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
6th — Running Reverse Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
7th — Step Over Fake: Left, Right
8th — Front Flick: Left, Right
9th — Rainbow Flick
10th — Step On and Drag
11th — Inside Bounce
12th — Running Inside Bounce Diagonal Take: Left, Right
13th — Running Upper Body Feint: Left, Right
14th — Matthews Faint: Left, Right
15th — Step Over: Left, Right
16th — Cross Over Turn: Left, Right
17th — Sideway Dribble: Left, Right, Straight Aheatd
18th — Outside Step Over: Left, Right
19th — Dive
20th — Regular Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
21st — High Speed Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
22nd — Low Speed Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
—————————————————————————-
That makes a total of 77 VARIATIONS of dribbling animations…. Yet when you look at the execution,
——————————————————————————
Link Feints System: Execution
——————————————————————————-
1st — Four Directions: North, West, South, East
2nd — Four Spaces within each of the four directions.
3rd — North: Matthews Feint (Right) + nothing more.
4th — West: Step On and Drag + Inside Bounce + Inside Bounce + Front Flick (Right)
5th — South: Matthews Feint (Left) + nothing more.
6th — East: Regular Turn (Back-Right) + Regular Turn (Front) + Matthews Feint (Right) + nothing more.
—————————————————————————-
So even though you do have 77 VARIATIONS of dribbling animations, you can only use (at the most) just 16 out of 77 animations, and in reality, you just have 4 variations (out of 77) that you can use on the pitch…. Try using just 4 variations of dribbling moves after 30 minutes of play…. That’s terrible execution, it’s essentially RPG…. It goes without saying, that with a proper analog system you could easily use the 77 dribbling animations on the pitch, as opposed to settling for just 4 out of 77 animations.
I’m not even talking about wholesale changes such as a new physics engine, new animations, etc; I’m merely talking about making proper use of the left analog stick, and thus making proper use of the number of animations that the game already has in store.
And I’m sorry, to advertise yourself as the hardcore football sim, yet include the “Rainbow Flick” into your game, is extremely hypocritical: “hey, this is the hardcore footy sim, but here are some pumpkin heads and you can also perform the Rainbow Flick whilst having a pumpkin for a head” — stupidity at its brilliant best, makes you laugh at first, but ultimately frustration will be the predominant sentiment.
Konami really needs to get rid of the flamboyant dribbling moves (such as the Rainbow Flick) that you rarely (if ever) see when watching competitive football, and focus on the dribbling moves that are actually used in competitive football: little precision touches on the ball, touching the ball two feet in front of the outside of your right foot, touching the ball three feet in front of the inside of your left foot, positioning the ball precisely in between both feet, etc, etc, is the **SUBTLETY** that PES needs in order to once again earn the respect of the hardcore market.
Get rid of the unrealistic Rainbow Flick, Flip Flap, Roulette, that only a 1% of football players can actually pull off on the pitch, and replace that with subtle precision touches which will look much closer to the real thing.
And in all honesty, the Roulette doesn’t need to be eliminated, just merely hidden from view. At the end of the day, Konami has the technology and the resources to make it happen, but they need to change the control scheme, not add more gimmicks to the same old control scheme, but actually change the control scheme from the ground up….
It can be done in less than one year, but Konami really need to apply the “talk is cheap” to the themselves, because so far in this generation of consoles, all they’ve done is talk big and then deliver a disappointing game. The reason why PES5 and PES6 were considered hardcore, is because it focused on the subtleties of real football, the subtleties of player individuality, you would never see disgrace that the Rainbow Flick is neither in PES5 nor in PES6, but Ronaldo and Zidane certainly felt like their real life counter parts, even though the game was based around the eight directional D-Pad button.
At the end of the day, you know that something is seriously wrong with the direction of the game, when you consider the fact that PES6 felt more fluid and more unpredictable than PES12. It’s time to go back to their roots and focus on the subtle aspects of the beautiful game, the precision touch over the rainbow flick, the hardcore over the casual, Konami can either choose a side or stay within their grey line.
@ Barry
As my skepticism clearly reflects, I have given up on the PES franchise, I simply don’t see why Konami deserves any credibility at this point; and don’t get me, even though PES12 is very dated, FIFA12 is equally dated and fundamentally worst, because at least PES12 has the ingredients that are required in order to produce a solid (albeit not exactly revolutionary) effort.
Most of my frustration with the PES franchise, is simply the fact that I know that if I had power over the direction of the franchise, I could take PES12 and transform it into a much better game: the number of animations (albeit robotic) are enough, but the execution is terrible.
The perfect example of the mentioned fact is the Link Feints System,
—————————————————————————
Link Feints System: On Paper
—————————————————————————-
1st — Roulette: Left, Right
2nd — Flip Flap: Left, Right
3rd — Step Over Feint: Left, Right
4th — Running Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
5th — Reverse Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
6th — Running Reverse Step Over Dummy: Left, Right
7th — Step Over Fake: Left, Right
8th — Front Flick: Left, Right
9th — Rainbow Flick
10th — Step On and Drag
11th — Inside Bounce
12th — Running Inside Bounce Diagonal Take: Left, Right
13th — Running Upper Body Feint: Left, Right
14th — Matthews Faint: Left, Right
15th — Step Over: Left, Right
16th — Cross Over Turn: Left, Right
17th — Sideway Dribble: Left, Right, Straight Aheatd
18th — Outside Step Over: Left, Right
19th — Dive
20th — Regular Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
21st — High Speed Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
22nd — Low Speed Turn: Left, Right, Front, Back, Front-Left, Back-left, Front-Right, Back-Right
—————————————————————————-
That makes a total of 77 VARIATIONS of dribbling animations…. Yet when you look at the execution,
——————————————————————————
Link Feints System: Execution
——————————————————————————-
1st — Four Directions: North, West, South, East
2nd — Four Spaces within each of the four directions.
3rd — North: Matthews Feint (Right) + nothing more.
4th — West: Step On and Drag + Inside Bounce + Inside Bounce + Front Flick (Right)
5th — South: Matthews Feint (Left) + nothing more.
6th — East: Regular Turn (Back-Right) + Regular Turn (Front) + Matthews Feint (Right) + nothing more.
—————————————————————————-
So even though you do have 77 VARIATIONS of dribbling animations, you can only use (at the most) just 16 out of 77 animations, and in reality, you just have 4 variations (out of 77) that you can use on the pitch…. Try using just 4 variations of dribbling moves after 30 minutes of play…. That’s terrible execution, it’s essentially RPG…. It goes without saying, that with a proper analog system you could easily use the 77 dribbling animations on the pitch, as opposed to settling for just 4 out of 77 animations.
I’m not even talking about wholesale changes such as a new physics engine, new animations, etc; I’m merely talking about making proper use of the left analog stick, and thus making proper use of the number of animations that the game already has in store.
And I’m sorry, to advertise yourself as the hardcore football sim, yet include the “Rainbow Flick” into your game, is extremely hypocritical: “hey, this is the hardcore footy sim, but here are some pumpkin heads and you can also perform the Rainbow Flick whilst having a pumpkin for a head” — stupidity at its brilliant best, makes you laugh at first, but ultimately frustration will be the predominant sentiment.
Konami really needs to get rid of the flamboyant dribbling moves (such as the Rainbow Flick) that you rarely (if ever) see when watching competitive football, and focus on the dribbling moves that are actually used in competitive football: little precision touches on the ball, touching the ball two feet in front of the outside of your right foot, touching the ball three feet in front of the inside of your left foot, positioning the ball precisely in between both feet, etc, etc, is the **SUBTLETY** that PES needs in order to once again earn the respect of the hardcore market.
Get rid of the unrealistic Rainbow Flick, Flip Flap, Roulette, that only a 1% of football players can actually pull off on the pitch, and replace that with subtle precision touches which will look much closer to the real thing.
And in all honesty, the Roulette doesn’t need to be eliminated, just merely hidden from view. At the end of the day, Konami has the technology and the resources to make it happen, but they need to change the control scheme -not merely add more gimmicks to the same old control scheme- but actually change the control scheme from the ground up….
It can be done in less than one year, but Konami really need to apply the “talk is cheap” to themselves, because so far in this generation of consoles, all they’ve done is talk big and then deliver a disappointing game. The reason why PES5 and PES6 were considered hardcore, is because it focused on the subtleties of real football, the subtleties of player individuality, you would never see the disgrace that the Rainbow Flick is neither in PES5 nor in PES6, but Ronaldo and Zidane certainly felt like their real life counter parts, even though the game was based around the eight directional D-Pad button.
At the end of the day, you know that something is seriously wrong with the direction of the game, when you consider the fact that PES6 felt more fluid and more unpredictable than PES12. It’s time to go back to their roots and focus on the subtle aspects of the beautiful game, the precision touch over the rainbow flick, the hardcore over the casual, Konami can either choose a side or stay within their grey line.
@ Barry
I appreciate that you enjoy some of my older material, I’ve looked back at it a few times and I always laugh, it goes without saying that back then I didn’t knew how to be serious without getting caught up in a redundant debate, but at least it was honest and genuine.
And where PES12 is concerned, don’t get me wrong, I can enjoy the game on the rare occasion, but I am incapable of playing it every day, and I am also incapable of playing it for hours, I used to play PES6 for hours preferably against a human opponent, but I cannot do it anymore because it simply doesn’t entertain me to that extent.
Having said that, I can see myself developing a small addiction for a footy sim, provided the footy sim offers what I want to see. PES13 could easily offer what I want to see, which is real analog control even if the animations aren’t the best, they can easily do that if they wanted, though I suspect they won’t.
In any case, the “talk is cheap” trailer is certainly interesting, perhaps Konami finally managed to polish what they have into a game with better replay value.
@Amateur
I like the idea of a arcade mode you suggested i.el pick your best 11 (one be one)
What about introducing classics teams i.e play with uniteds 99 treble winning team v the great juventus teams of the 90 or the old ac milans/ real madrid with the likes of figo ronaldo barca with rivaldo romario etc
@ameteur
I love a good debate tbh and have great respect for people who can argue a point online without resorting to anonymous cowardice of personal attacks, posting under different names etc. your points are good but I wouldn’t mind the rainbow flicks as kuch as that. Granted they look silly but only 10-15 players should be able to do them. Pressure sensitive running would be groundbreaking alright but surely a new joypad would be needed next gen. As you say, PES 2013 should unite the slower more tactical approach of 2011 with the movement and freedom of 2012, throw in world class keepers, an brand new shooting. That game would tide us over until next gen.
@pes2013
That would be awesome but even FIFA couldn’t do that. Their are hundreds of licenses to muddle through before that. You could have 25+ league with an extra 400 custom teams in pes 2013,2014. Recreate entire seasons and dynasties.
PES died and i mourned its death years ago…..its not going to return…..Konami stop reminding us yearly…it hurts!
@ PES13 is coming
Classic teams is an excellent idea, but personally, I prefer the idea of playing with fantasy teams. On one hand, it would be cool to have an officially licensed classic team; but on the other hand, I’m much more interested in playing Luis Figo and Carlos Valderrama (two of my favorite players) on the same team. I mean, I just think the idea of fantasy teams is much more interesting than the idea of adding classic teams into the game.
Furthermore, classic teams sound like a lot of work, for each team you’d need to create 11+ faces, you’d need to tweak the team so that it resembles the real thing, uniforms, etc, etc. Though don’t get me wrong, I do think that including classic teams into the game is an excellent idea, but putting myself in Konami’s shoes, is it worth it?
In any case, I think the most important point is that both ideas are well within realistic, Konami would definitely do themselves a big favor if they start doing more original things, instead of merely copying everything FIFA do (11 vs 11, BAL Mode, etc).
But anyways, my suggestion to Konami, is to create a new playing mode that doesn’t require too much effort. For example, the BAL Mode, is the type of thing that requires a lot of effort, because it’s completely different than the classic gameplay, and more importantly, it’s the type of thing that casual hipsters want to play, and you know that 90% of casual hipsters will go for FIFA, so I feel that spending time on the BAL Mode is playing to EA Sports strengths.
So my advice is to create a new playing mode that doesn’t require a lot of time nor a lot of effort put into it, more specifically my advice is to create a new mode, perhaps call it “Fantasy Team Mode”, the idea would be simple,
——————————————————————-
New Mode: Fantasy Team Mode
——————————————————————-
The Fantasy Team Mode: a character-select mode that includes the best players from the last 20 years or so, all in their peak conditions.
Therefore, players whom are still active, such as Ruud van Nistelrooy, would not be included as they are today, instead, a younger version of themselves would be included. The idea, is to have the best players of the last 20 years or so, all of them in their peak conditions.
In order to ensure that Lionel Messi does not end up playing for both sides, character selection would work around a one per one system, meaning that if Player-A selects Lionel Messi as his first pick, then Lionel Messi will not be available by the time Player-B has his first pick, which ensures that no player -be it Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo- will play for both sides.
The Fantasy Team Mode would not actually be an individual mode: for example, when playing online, your opponent could chose a real team such as Barcelona or Real Madrid; this means that Fantasy Team Mode will appear as just another team, you select it, and then you chose your fantasy team. In the case your opponent decides to play with Barcelona, then Lionel Messi nor any other Barca player will appear on the Fantasy Team Mode character selection screen.
And another important detail are the uniforms, and a good idea would be to replicate old uniforms with the Adidas or Nike logo, perhaps the Real Madrid uniform from season 2001-2002 but without the Real Madrid logo…. Perhaps instead of the Real Madrid logo, Konami could design their own random logos, so that you can select the logo that you want.
The game mode would include a training mode, so that you can assemble your very own Fantasy Team and tweak the tactical settings, and save it, so that you can use the tactical settings when playing online. You should also have the option of saving the logo and uniform that you want to use when playing online.
And another thing to consider, would be the commentary, which I think should avoid historical references such as “Ronaldo was top scorer at the 2002 World Cup”, and instead just focus on the actual playing styles of the players, and simply go for comments like “Ronaldo, is there anyone more dangerous than him?” — historical references get old very quickly, I think it would be better if the commentary treated classic players as if they still played the game, making direct comparisons between Lionel Messi and Roberto Baggio as if they both played the game at the same time, thus adding to the “fantasy” theme.
So that, for example, if the 1993 version of Roberto Baggio is included into the game, then the commentators would talk about Baggio’s 1993 statistics as if it had happened in 2011, but the commentators would only mention goals scored, but carefully avoiding historical references such as “Roberto Baggio, World Player of the Year in 1994″.
And lastly, the players would not be thrown together into one big character selection screen, instead character selection would be organized by position: center forwards in their own specific niche, and the same for second strikers, attacking midfielders, defensive midfielders, central defenders, and wide defenders, thus making the process of character selection as simple as possible.
As for the players to be included in the mode,
The most obvious current gen players to be included as younger versions of themselves, would be: Thierry Henry, Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Raul, Samuel Eto’o, Roman Riquelme, Francesco Totti, Alessandro Del Piero, Alessandro Nesta, Ronaldinho, Sebastian Veron, Filippo Inzaghi, Andriy Shevchenko, Michael Ballack, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Rio Ferdinand, Andrea Pirlo, John Terry, Carles Puyol, Gennaro Gattuso, Clarence Seedorf, Joaquin, Javier Zanetti, Gianluigi Buffon, and a few others who I’m forgetting.
Current gen players to be included exactly as they are today: Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Kaka, Robin van Persie, Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta, Gerard Pique, Sergio Busquets, Xabi Alonso, etc, etc.
And then including a few of the most memorable players from the 1990s and 2000s.
Center Forwards: Romario, Ronaldo, Bebeto, Marco van Basten, Jurgen Klinsmann, Rudi Voller, Gary Lineker, Gabriel Batistuta, Ivan Zamorano, Christian Vieri, Alan Shearer, Hristo Stoichkov, Henrik Larsson,
Second Strikers: Roberto Baggio, Dennis Bergkamp, Rivaldo, Eric Cantona, Gianfranco Zola,
Attacking Midfielders: Zinedine Zidane, Luis Figo, Michael Laudrup, Gheorghe Hagi, Roberto Donadoni, Paul Gascoigne, Enzo Francescoli, Matt Le Tissier, Ruud Gullit, Rui Costa, Cauhtemoc Blanco,
Deep-Lying playmakers: Carlos Valderrama, Fernando Redondo, Josep Guardiola, Demetrio Albertini,
Box-to-box Midfielders: Lothar Matthaus, Roy Keane, Pavel Nedved, Gaizka Mendieta,
Defensive Midfielders: Claude Makelele, Didier Deschamps, Dunga, Mauro Silva, Emmanuel Petit, Edgar Davids, Emerson,
Central Defenders: Franco Baresi, Paolo Maldini, Alessandro Costacurta, Mauro Tassotti, Ronald Koeman, Fernando Hierro, Laurent Blanc, Fabio Cannavaro, Lilian Thuram, Marcel Desailly, Jaap Stam, Tony Adams, Roberto Ayala,
Wide Defenders: Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Andreas Brehme, Bixente Lizarazu,
Goalkeepers: Peter Schmeichel, Oliver Kahn, Sergio Goycochea, Claudio Taffarel, Thomas Ravelli, Rene Higuita, Edwin van der Sar, Fabien Barthez, Chilavert, Jorge Campos,
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So all things considered,
** Current gen players whom are way past their prime, but to be included as younger versions of themselves: about 30 more or less.
** Classic players to be included in their peak condition: about 71 more or less.
** Current gen players to be included exactly as they are today (and exactly as they are in the game already): about 71 more or less.
So all things considered, we are talking about 71 or 101 faces to include into the game, that’s like 8 teams in terms of created faces: not that much. Perhaps a few unique animations for the very distinctive players such as Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldo, Luis Figo, Romario, Carlos Valderrama, and a few others. And in return, you create a new playing mode that (a) makes it possible for football geeks to play with their favorite players from the past and present, and (b) offers a different experience to the people whom are tired of playing against Barcelona or Real Madrid all the time.
At the end of the day, the Fantasy Team Mode could be done without the inclusion of classic players, and I’m certain that a lot of people would play it either because they like the idea of fantasy teams or because they’re tired of playing against Barcelona or Real Madrid all the time. In any case, it’s a playing mode that -provided the gameplay is good enough- would capture the attention of many hardcore gamers.
I think the Fantasy Team Mode -with classic players included into the mix- is an idea that rings true to the identity of PS2-PES, it’s the perfect idea for Konami to show their player individuality.
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@ Barry
I don’t think FIFA is a good example to follow in that respect. I mean, when you look at a smaller company, such as the 2K franchise, you see that NBA 2K12 includes many classic teams from the NBA.
The evidence indicates that FIFA couldn’t do that, because they don’t particularly care about it. But again, when you look at a franchise which is considered hardcore, such as the NBA 2K franchise, you will see many classic teams. I think classic teams are a hardcore thing, because only hardcore fans will care about classic players and classic teams, the casual fans will always go for the team of the moment.
That is one good reason why I think that licensed classic players -not necessarily classic teams, but classic players- would be a good addition to the PES franchise, because it would show that Konami knows and respects the legends of the game, it’s a hardcore detail that I think would help create a better image for the PES franchise.
Personally I think the only answer to the problems with MLO cheaters and exploiters is for there to be a bigger commitment from Konami to listen to those people playing MLO and apply more patches until it’s as good as possible. Patch 1.06 has addressed nothing as far as I can see, yet there are many well known exploits which ruin the experience for those of us who want to play the game fairly. For example, time wasting needs to be made less easy and effective, cheap free kicks where the target player is placed in the net and passed to need to be eradicated, rounding the keeper needs to be toned down still, speed merchants still too effective, crossing too effective and easy to pull off (requiring little/no skill), low crosses still too effective, shooting needs tweaking, etc, etc… These are all things that if Konami asked people playing MLO/online they would report as problematic (or if they actually played the game themselves you would think they would see!) and none of them are really difficult to fix… To me, a bigger commitment to continuous imporvement is the bigggest thing they could do to improve the franchise. Forget about elaborate changes to the controls or adding more modes, just get the one versus one (and cpu AI) right.
I love the ideas being put out here but one flaw that NEEDS to be addressed and has contributed to PES having a lengthy stay in a blocked toilet pipe: Scripting. Where Konami use their black magic over your players in order to have them start a revolt or mutiny against you. Back in the day me and my mates USED to have great fun playing PES however in PES 2012 the scripting is so bad some of my friends have left the game not wanting to talk to me because of the scripting involved.
SOME Examples: Defenders stepping over the ball. The ball ricocheting off numerous players and falling at the feet of the striker to tap in. What makes the game look extremely bad is the way the players appear to know that these “tarnishing” the beautiful game moments are going to happening as if they merely acting in a movie -_-.
I have some classic ones where a shot is taken and its heading straight to the keeper….easy save ey?…no danger here?…enter KONAMIs script = keeper DODGES the ball. Yes DODGES the ball as if the ball is something thats endangering he’s health and he HAS to take evasive action -_-. I recorded some more classics and Im gonna make a whole HOUR video of them to show KONAMI this is NOT football and this is NOT level Asian.
Another area where scripting takes place is the time the goals are scored:
Before half time.
End of Match.
From Kickoff.
When the opponent scores. You hitback immediately -_-
KONAMI makes sure goals are scored here using their black magic.
If this was taken out PES 2012 would be much more enjoyable.
PS. Where the hell is the option to have a 2v2 online using an offline mate??? They really have to bring this back and have 2v2 ranked matches!!
lets hope it goes back to pes 11 were the speed was right and it wasnt all about weak as water fast players like this year, in pes 11 it was all about passin and havein strong players i had jason roberts up front strong player not fast but could score lots of goals cus of he was strong id rather have that then fast weak players its all run run run no skill wat so ever. u go onto MLO in pes 12 and u see there team ronaldo messi robbin ribery pato eeto every 1 has them u no its gonna b pass to them and run run run no team work involved hardly any passin just run yes i no runnin is apart of football but its a joke havein to play every game like this been in D1 the whole time and every D1 player does this run run run its shockin. lets hope konami let the uk users have the game at the same time as the rest of europe cus this year it was 2 weeks late in the uk. 2 weeks in MLO is along time all the good players start off cheap yet wen the uk users got the game ronaldo and all cost 35 mil yet he starts off at 9 or so big difference. oh and in pes 11 jason roberts scored if im not mistakein 858 goals for me yet he only cost about 1 million most of my team was not so good of players but i knew how to use them to beat the likes of the ronaldos and that but in pes 12 u can still do it but not as often, it should b about how good the player with the controler is not the players on the game
@ Dave O
COMMENT
Forget about elaborate changes to the controls or adding more modes, just get the one versus one (and cpu AI) right.
RESPONSE
I’m sorry but you have a very bad idea of what needs to be done, one versus one is the most important aspect of the game, but you cannot actually fix one versus one by merely “tweaking” the same old problematic system, the only thing that can actually fix one versus one is changing the control scheme from the ground up, changing the control scheme from the ground up is changing the foundation, people like yourself who have little idea of what they’re talking about, think that fundamental flaws can be fixed by merely tweaking the same old thing: I ask you a very simple question, if elaborate changes to the controls are not needed, then why is it that neither EA Sports nor Konami have managed to find a good formula?
The answer is simple, because EA Sports merely copied PES and added the illusion of “organic” dribbling so that casual hipsters can play the game, and because Konami have done nothing but destroy their reputation. I would hope that you understand very simple facts, but after so many years of seeing you in this website, it is clear that you are very conservative where video games are concerned, and that you actually believe that “get one versus one right” is just a matter of tweaking the game…. Get a clue, seriously.
My advice to Konami would be to ignore fans like yourself who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about, like all fans you want improvements, you just don’t know how real improvement can be attained: the left analog stick is the most important button, it determines dribbling and passing, by changing how the left analog stick is used, you change how the game is played for the better. But fans like yourself, are blind enough to believe that the current system can be “fixed” when the fact is as clear as daylight, it cannot be fixed, you would know why it cannot be fixed if you actually understood what the current system is and how it operates.
And by the way, who are you to say that new modes are not needed? Yet at the same time you think that Konami should invest more of their time with patches that make absolutely no difference to the actual gameplay? Dude, you may be unaware of the fact, but PES is not specifically made for people like yourself, other people, like for example me, could not care less about the MLO; so should I say that the MLO is a waste of time and deserves no work put into it?
That’s how you sound when you disregard “elaborate changes to the controls or adding new modes” without actually knowing what you are actually disregarding. The new mode that I suggested, is simple, it would not require much work, it does not require patches, it’s a simple mode where instead of playing with a real team, you can select a fantasy team: you can call it a “new mode” all you want, it still won’t change the fact that it is much simpler (and cheaper) than constantly patching the MLO so that people like yourself can have the perfect MLO experience.
Furthermore, to disregard “elaborate changes to the controls” is a declaration of ignorance, you clearly do not understand why both FIFA and PES have hit the same wall…. And it’s clearly not a problem for FIFA because casual hipsters will always buy their games, but Konami has got a real problem on their hands. Perhaps playing so much MLO has made you unaware of the reality, the reality is that most people whom are more concerned with MLO than the core gameplay simply buy FIFA, the reality is that the vast majority of the hardcore PES fans who have bought both PES11 and PES12, have run out of patience with the PES franchise, PES12.5 will not be enough this time around, Konami need to do more or they’ll continue loosing more and more of their hardcore fans.
You think that Konami need to invest more time and effort into the MLO? It’s not a bad idea, but to say that patching the MLO is more important than elaborate changes to the game, is something that no hardcore fan of the series will agree with. The MLO could be perfectly tweaked, but if the gameplay is not up to scratch, hardcore fans will not bother playing your game, it is as simple as that.
I offered what I think is a good enough solution to the two main problems that hardcore fans are complaining about: (a) playing against Barcelona and Real Madrid all the time gets boring very quickly, which is why a Fantasy Team would be a great solution to that particular problem; and (b) changing the whole control scheme from the ground up, is necessary, if the game is ever going to get past the wall.
I just think that disregarding the idea of a Fantasy Team, is suspicious. Why would anyone disregard the idea of a Fantasy Team Mode? Or do you think that adding a character-select mode requires a lot of effort? It doesn’t, it’s the same exact game, just with an added extra for the people whom are looking for that something extra.
And to disregard “elaborate changes” in favor of MLO patches, just speaks for itself; just out of curiosity, since when do you use the left analog stick over the D-Pad button?
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@ Rafeeq
That’s all true, but that also happened with PES5 and PES6, the reason why it was much less noticeable (and much more tolerable) with PES5 and PES6, is because the system of the game revolved around the D-Pad button: the D-Pad only offers 8 directions of movement, the rest was all automated, and thus the flaws of the system were not as noticeable as they are today, because the system did not sell itself as “manual shooting” nor as “manual dribbling”, the system was D-Pad, plain and simple.
Of course, my point is that the reason why this flaw is much more noticeable in PES12 and FIFA12, is because these video games are still based around the same old and tested D-Pad system, yet these games use the superior range of movement of the left analog stick in order to create the illusion of progress: and it is real progress to an extent because the left analog stick undoubtedly offers more directions of movement than the D-Pad, but one of the negatives, is that the superior range of movement of the left analog stick has exposed the limitations of the D-Pad system; directing the left analog stick slightly towards the north, directing the left analog stick dramatically towards the north, does not make any difference to neither dribbling nor shooting….
The D-Pad button cannot determine any distance within the direction, the D-Pad button can only determine the direction, and because the left analog stick is adapted to a pre-existing D-Pad system, this means that distance within the direction makes absolutely no difference to neither dribbling nor shooting. Directing the left analog stick slightly towards the north-east, directing the left analog stick dramatically towards the north-east: same exact result, you never exactly know what will happen because at times you direct the shot towards the north-east and then the shot goes towards the north, the system offers little to no consistency, and above all things, the system exposes the limitations of adapting the left analog stick to a pre-existing D-Pad system.
The only real solution to the problem is to change the whole control scheme from the ground up, eliminate the D-Pad system once and for all, and make proper use of the left analog stick, that’s the only real solution to shooting and dribbling…. But the people who believe that the current system can be “tweaked” to perfection are sadly mistaken, the current system cannot be fixed not even after a million patches, that’s why both PES and FIFA have hit the same wall.
@ “Amateur” – Ha ha… I switched after I had no choice, but of course I still miss the control I used to have with the d pad, and I know I’m not the only one. Anyway, chill out, you seem really upset for some reason, and as a result I hate to say it but you are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting my point of view. I’m not conservative! All I’m saying is “first things first.” That’s all. If they added another mode (whether your idea sounds interesting to me or not) then it just adds yet another flawed playing experience to a game that already has tons of modes, so obviously the point shouldn’t be taken so harshly when I suggest that the basics are the most important. I’m sure you would have to agree with that. As for your control scheme, again, think about a major overhaul (good or bad) but without maintenance… It might be better, but it would still suffer from things like “cheating AI” or online exploiters if it’s not patched more extensively, which means the game is still essentially broken. So, I’m just saying that my opinion is simply that more maintenance is needed to make the game experience really top notch, regardless of what neat modes or clever control schemes are implemented. Simple.
Three other points:
1.) You make a huge mistake when you disregard MLO and online play. I’m not the only one who plays against others primarily. It’s become a massive community and if you’re going to comment on what needs to be done with PES without playing these modes then I hate to say it but you are clearly the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about. It’s like if you have never played hockey before, trying to tell a bunch of professional coaches how the game should be played, when really you’re just someone who likes skating on a lonely frozen pond by yourself.
2. Your argument about how the control scheme changing is needed to solve everything and how the tweaks are not going to solve the problems I pointed out is just plain wrong. Some of the exploits (which, of course, you wouldn’t be familiar with since you don’t play online) are really simple to fix (for example the crossing), without any major changes to the way the game is played. That’s just a fact, but if you want to ignore the facts, be my guest. Anyway, it’s simple stuff really.
3. RELAX! I’m not saying that new modes or control scheme changes are things I don’t want to see, I’m just saying I would be happy with really well executed changes to the existing system. It’s possible, it’s simple, but it’s actually not as easy as one might think.
Anyway, I think you’re taking things way too much to heart in this regard. The fact is that neither you nor I have any say in what actually happens with this game, so take it easy (!) and try not to jump to so many conclusions about what I am saying (because you’re really, really, wrong – for example you’re contention that I lack creativity and that I’m some sort of conservative old fart flies in the face of the fact that I’m a visual artist and a writer, currently putting the finishing touches on a screenplay about stand up comedy and also that I’m very willing to accept and partake in experimental and deconstructive thinking when it comes to problem solving). Again, I am not against there being huge changes, but I would be happy with Konami starting with getting the game they have right first. I think it’s funny that you would take so much offense to that and have to resort to the petty arguments you’ve tried, but failed, to make (on every count). BTW, I’ve got better things to do than bash my head against a wall, which is what talking to you is like so you’ll hear no more from me on this.
I agree with Dave-O “fixing” the D-Pad and analog movements will do NOTHING to stop a lot of the scripting that takes place. I mean come on a keeper jumping away from the ball?? Konami uses many opportunities to make their Steven Spielberg movie for the gamers to watch. Selecting a player to cross to from a corner or even normal crosses, why is it so easy for players to score them? One can see that Spielberg attempts to balance it out by making the players miss the header. But it will look like a chance where he should score.
Amateur, you really have to see some of the goals me and my mate recorded -_- the Spielberg ones are legendary I tell ya.
@ Dave O
COMMENT
All I’m saying is “first things first.” That’s all.
RESPONSE
I see you as conservative and there’s nothing you can say to change my mind about that, however, I apologize for my last response because looking back at it, it was a bit too harsh in certain places. In any case, I’m glad to see a familiar face around these parts :)
Anyways, I completely agree with the comments that I highlighted, personally I prefer the phrase “good things take time” — my point is, I think that the MLO should have waited two or three years more, because the core gameplay needs so much work, that I feel that adding the MLO is ultimately detrimental and counterproductive.
COMMENT
As for your control scheme, again, think about a major overhaul (good or bad) but without maintenance… It might be better, but it would still suffer from things like “cheating AI” or online exploiters if it’s not patched more extensively, which means the game is still essentially broken.
So, I’m just saying that my opinion is simply that more maintenance is needed to make the game experience really top notch, regardless of what neat modes or clever control schemes are implemented. Simple.
RESPONSE
I will say it a bit more nicely this time: you are wrong, dead wrong, about that. I am talking about execution, not about the physics engine nor about anything of that sort, merely about the execution.
How do you maintain a sinking ship? You cannot, the cost of maintaining the sinking ship is more expensive than what the sinking ship is actually producing, and thus impossible is the word that best describes the idea of maintaining and patching something that doesn’t produces enough of what you need.
The bottom line is simple: “online exploiters” are people who merely exploit the fact that PES is based around an automatic concept, player individuality is automatic, player individuality is not manual, and this means that an inexperienced player can take Barcelona and easily beat an experienced player.
The fact that the whole PES concept is automatic, cannot be “patched” to perfection. Online exploiters merely exploit the flaws of the game: should you then patch a flawed system so that online exploiters can find yet another new way to exploit the obvious flaws of the system? Or do you go back to the drawing board, look at the root of the problem, and fix the actual problem that online exploiters thrive on?
And of course, there’s also the problem with “AI Cheating”, which is created by exactly the same flaw that creates online exploiters: considering the fact that the PES system is automatic, how can you make it more difficult for the player? If the AI did not cheated, then the game would be incredibly easy, so the only way the AI can increase the difficulty, is by cheating the stats, the game is based around statistics, and the computer can only cheat the stats, in order to increase the difficulty of the game. This is a fundamental problem that should not be patched nor maintained, because it’s not going anywhere but down.
The mentioned fundamental problem is not a problem with video games like Mortal Kombat, because in Mortal Kombat the computer does not need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty of the game: does this mean that the game is flawless? Not at all, it can still have flaws that people can exploit, but the all important difference, is that because the computer cannot cheat nor needs to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty of the game, that each problem that arises can be ironed out of the game quite easily.
That’s the flaw of your argument, you are not making the correct distinction between “cheating AI” and “online exploiters”.
If you do not have cheating AI, this means that the computer does not need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty of the game, which also means that the game revolves around a manual element, which means that you can easily sort out the online exploiters.
On the other hand, if your off-line game is filled with “cheating AI” moments, this means that the AI needs to cheat in order to work around the fact that if the AI did not cheated then the game would be incredibly easy: and here is the all important FACT, the AI needs to cheat because that is how the whole game works, at the same time, the game is very simplistic, so, how long do you think it takes for a smart human being to figure out how the AI cheats the game?
Only about 8+ directions of movement, you can only move through space, it is impossible to move within the space that you occupy, automatic passing, automatic shooting, automatic dribbling, automatic everything; how long do you think it takes for a human being to figure out an extremely simple game, and find all the obviously flawed spots?
This is what happens when the game is patched, you fix the crosses via a patch, but the AI still needs to cheat because cheating is the basis of the whole game, so perhaps now Lionel Messi will dribble through you more easily, thus the computer can exploit a sweet spot without the necessity of crossing the ball; then you “patch” that flaw so that Lionel Messi can no longer dribble through you as easily, but now you find that strong players are stronger than they were before the latest patch, and that the computer is scoring cheap goals by using strong players; and then you “patch” that new flaw, and then another flaw appears in another area of the game, etc, etc, etc.
It’s a never ending cycle, because the foundation of the game expired a few years ago, and needs to be replaced as soon as possible. What is the point of maintaining something that already expired? It is a waste of good money and a waste of effort, whatever flaw online exploiters are exploiting, not even after one million patches, the flaw that creates all the cheating will not be touched by any of the patches.
That’s the flaw of your argument, you want to patch and maintain, a sinking ship. On the other hand, because I understand what needs to be done, I know that the control scheme needs to be changed from the ground up, in order to change the way the left analog stick works, in order to change how player individuality works, so that player individuality becomes manual, and once the player individuality becomes manual, then the computer will no longer need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty of the game, and as a direct consequence of the mentioned fact, online exploiters will no longer find obvious flaws to exploit, and the flaws that they do find, will be ironed out very easily, because Konami would have a proper foundation to work on and maintain.
Again, I am not talking about animations, I am talking about the execution of the game…. If you believe that it is both possible and positive to patch and maintain a sinking ship, go right ahead, I’m merely telling you that you have gold and other valuable metals on that sinking ship, and that if you continue trying to patch and maintain that sinking ship -instead of packing up the gold, go to the little escape boat, and let the big boat sink- everything you have will eventually end up at the bottom of the ocean.
So my opinion is simple, more maintenance is not needed at all, what is actually needed, is to use all that money and effort that currently goes into maintenance, into sorting out the cause of the maintenance. Otherwise, PES will stay within that grey line, where it’s neither casual nor hardcore, neither moving forwards nor backwards, etc.
COMMENT
1.) You make a huge mistake when you disregard MLO and online play. I’m not the only one who plays against others primarily. It’s become a massive community and if you’re going to comment on what needs to be done with PES without playing these modes then I hate to say it but you are clearly the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about. It’s like if you have never played hockey before, trying to tell a bunch of professional coaches how the game should be played, when really you’re just someone who likes skating on a lonely frozen pond by yourself.
RESPONSE
Actually, no, your analogy makes absolutely no sense. Not playing MLO, does not change the fact that I play with friends, nor does it change the fact that I play the game by myself, nor does it change the fact that I understand the game better than you.
Here’s a hint…. even though I play alone at times, there are still 11 players on the screen, no? And thus, I am not exactly skating on a lonely frozen pond by myself? Your analogy is as daft as your whole argument, sorry, but the truth is the truth.
COMMENT
2. Your argument about how the control scheme changing is needed to solve everything and how the tweaks are not going to solve the problems I pointed out is just plain wrong. Some of the exploits (which, of course, you wouldn’t be familiar with since you don’t play online) are really simple to fix (for example the crossing), without any major changes to the way the game is played. That’s just a fact, but if you want to ignore the facts, be my guest. Anyway, it’s simple stuff really.
RESPONSE
I have played online many times, I just don’t bother touching the MLO because I do not like the mode, but I am very much aware of the obvious flaws that you are talking about, even though I do not touch the MLO Mode.
And no, it’s not simple stuff at all. You are correct when you say that it is extremely simple to satisfy a fan like yourself who would still be using the D-Pad if you could still get away with it; however, hardcore fans like myself, hardcore fans who have been using the left analog stick for the past 10+ years, will not be satisfied by a little tiny “crossing” patch, because better crossing does not change the fact that the other 99% of the game is boring.
COMMENT
3. RELAX! I’m not saying that new modes or control scheme changes are things I don’t want to see, I’m just saying I would be happy with really well executed changes to the existing system. It’s possible, it’s simple, but it’s actually not as easy as one might think.
RESPONSE
I AM RELAXED!! I am merely saying, that what you think can be done, cannot actually be done, because it’s not possible, never has been, never will be.
When was the last time it happened without a negative setback? Never. This is why some people prefer PES11 over PES12, PES5 over PES6, because for every little improvement in one area, a little negative appears on another area of the game, because Konami is not actually fixing the root of the problem, Konami is merely adding gimmick after gimmick after gimmick, in an effort to minimize the limitations of the system.
What you want, can be done when you have a solid foundation, when the computer does not need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty, that’s a solid foundation, and unfortunately Konami doesn’t have that. You want them to maintain and patch a sinking ship, I’m telling you that what Konami should do, is pack their valuable things, go to the little boats, get back home, and built a better ship.
COMMENT
Again, I am not against there being huge changes, but I would be happy with Konami starting with getting the game they have right first. I think it’s funny that you would take so much offense to that and have to resort to the petty arguments you’ve tried, but failed, to make (on every count). BTW, I’ve got better things to do than bash my head against a wall, which is what talking to you is like so you’ll hear no more from me on this.
RESPONSE
What a fool you can be: attack the person, not the argument, an extremely childish retort by any standards. As “petty” as some of my responses may read to some people, I never attack the person, I always attack the argument, because I’m talking about a video game and the idea that a person has about the video game, I am not directly attacking the person nor am I particularly interested in what the person does for a living.
At the end of the day, is there anything more petty, than accusing me of something that I was never guilty of, and then self-proclaiming yourself as someone who would not lower himself to such behavior, yet at the same time sinking to the depths that you wrongly accused me off?
The fact of the matter is very simple, you are conservative as far as PES goes, if you could get away with it you would still use the D-Pad, you can deny it all you want but actions speak much louder than words ever will; if it was your decision, PES players would still be using the D-Pad because you would have absolutely no idea about how to improve on the old and tested D-Pad system; if it was your decision, you would continue maintaining and patching a sinking ship, and eventually, you would watch how all your hard work sank to the bottom of the market….
The truth is, you preach about “first things first” but your actions say otherwise: you say “first things first”, yet you want to patch and maintain the MLO, even though Konami has not even learned how to patch and maintain the off-line game; you say “first things first”, yet you want to believe that flaws can be fixed by consistently patching the game, even though the patch itself would not touch the reason why the flaw exists in the first place, etc, etc.
Unlike you, I actually do understand what the hell I’m talking about: unlike you, when I say “first things first”, I forget about the MLO, I forget about the BAL Mode, and I go back to the drawing board, change the whole control scheme, reinvent the concept of player individuality, and once I have a proper foundation, then I move on to the MLO and the BAL Mode, etc.
A good game does not need to be patched as regularly as PES12 and FIFA12, so I ask you a fairly simple question: why do you think that maintaining a flawed foundation is more productive than replacing the foundation before the costs of maintenance gets too high?
COMMENT
Anyway, I think you’re taking things way too much to heart in this regard. The fact is that neither you nor I have any say in what actually happens with this game, so take it easy (!) and try not to jump to so many conclusions about what I am saying (because you’re really, really, wrong – for example you’re contention that I lack creativity and that I’m some sort of conservative old fart flies in the face of the fact that I’m a visual artist and a writer, currently putting the finishing touches on a screenplay about stand up comedy and also that I’m very willing to accept and partake in experimental and deconstructive thinking when it comes to problem solving)
RESPONSE
And that has absolutely nothing to do with PES nor with video games. I am not questioning your intelligence as a professional nor as a human being, I do not practice such despicable behavior, however, I do think that you do not put much of your mind into it when you talk about PES related stuff, because your argument is very shallow and incorrect.
You talk about “first things first” yet at the same time you believe that patching an extremely flawed piece of work is the way to go forwards, one step at a time?? I’m sorry, but do you really not see how illogical your whole argument is?
And I’m not fussed about it either, I really am not, if Konami does what you want them to do, then I simply don’t buy their game, it’s just not something that actually concerns me because PES, as a source of entertainment, is easily replaceable. I’m just interested in the potential of a football sim, and I am 100% certain that Konami will loose a lot more fans if they continue going down the same direction; I think I am but a part of a majority, whereas you are part of a small minority of loyal fans whom will buy the product regardless of the actual progress.
And I have absolutely no problem with that, but do you think the PES franchise can survive if it continues loosing good chunks of their hardcore fans on a yearly basis? A good reputation is easy to loose, yet incredibly difficult to earn.
As a neutral, I think the hardcore market can be easily won by a third party, and if that happens, the PES franchise might face real problems, because hardcore fans will not sympathize with a company that was making a living out of past glories, and FIFA would -as always- have the casual market in their pockets. Today we only have two, but I think Konami is playing a dangerous game if they think they can continue delivering half-backed video games without a 3rd party becoming aware of the fact that the football sim genre is there for the taking.
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@ Rafeeq
PES5 and PES6 had the same exact flaws, but instead of the GK jumping away from the ball, the GK looked like he was trying to get to the ball, but PES5 and PES6 had very bad GKs as well, I remember scoring identical goals over and over again.
Let’s say that GKs are perfect, what do you do about the online hipsters who like to play with Barcelona, take Lionel Messi, and exploit the same thing over and over again; how do you fix that?
How do you fix the fact that, even though you know exactly -exactly- what Lionel Messi is going to do with the ball (because your opponent has been doing the same exact thing over and over again), Lionel Messi still ends up dribbling past you more often than not?
How do you fix the fact that, at times I have stopped the great Lionel Messi by releasing all the directional and non-directional buttons? It means that even though I was not pressing any button, the computer decided that Messi should loose the ball; how do you fix that?
If dribbling movements are scripted in accordance to statistics that are out of your control as a player, and if the computer can alter the statistics whenever the computer feels like it, it means that even if the GKs are perfect, the game still is scripted at its very core —- how would you fix that?
Fixing the analog movements DOES actually fix about 90% of the scripting, because the scripting takes place in the first place, because the whole game works around an automatic concept, if dribbling movements are scripted, how do you fix the “scripting” that you hate so much?
The only real solution, is to fix the reason why all these flaws are necessary, and the only way of doing that, is by changing the control scheme so that dribbling movements are manual instead of scripted, then the momentum of the game can be focused on the one vs one aspect of the game, meaning that the outcome of the game would be mostly determined by your ability as player as opposed to whatever the computer decides to do.
Remember that we’ve never have any control over the GKs, so even if the GKs are spot on, would it change the fact that playing the game is boring as hell?
Let’s be honest for one second, the goalkeepers in PES5 and PES6 were terrible, the only reason why you didn’t noticed the goalkeepers as much, was because PES5 and PES6 were fun to play: if you’re having fun, why would you pay a lot of attention to something that you never get to control?
In any case, I think it is time to have control over the GK via the right analog stick, which I think would certainly fix the scripting as you would control how effective or ineffective the goalkeeper is; though having said that, in order to control the goalkeeper, you would need to change the control scheme.
So again, I disagree with you: you want to fix the scripting, you just don’t want to fix the reason why scripting is there in the first place?
Manual dribbling, manual shooting, manual passing, manual tackling, manual goalkeepers, can only be implemented into the game, only if the control scheme is reinvented from the ground up. On the other hand, if the control scheme remains exactly the same, and Konami claims to offer “manual shooting” without the necessity of changing the control scheme, I can tell you right now, that the so-called “manual shooting” will not be manual, it will be automatic with a little lemon twist to it, but it won’t be real analog freedom, and it won’t be real manual, the limitations of the current hybrid system will be exposed yet again.
@ Barry
You made an interesting point about PES11, I mean, I know a lot of people who say that PES11 was better than PES12, and I have to agree that I preferred the more solid feel of PES11. Though again, I think PES is still lacking something, I mean PES5 and PES6 both had a trademark “crisp” feeling to them, with PES in this generation of consoles, I feel Konami has lost their way with the feel of the game, the one that came closest to feeling original was PES11, but even PES11 felt like a work in progress.
I think Konami definitely has what it takes to deliver a solid effort, but the execution of the game really needs an overhaul, the control scheme needs to be reworked from the ground up, in order to have more consistency with the game; I mean, the left analog stick does offers more directions than the D-Pad, but direction-wise the left analog stick is not much of an improvement over the D-Pad.
If you look closely, you’ll notice that there’s not much that you can do direction-wise with the left analog stick, it certainly appears to be “360 degrees” but really, how much can you do with that “360 degrees” when you consider the number of passing angles that must be included into that one button? Not much.
On the other hand, if changing direction was implemented into an individual button, then it would be impossible to change direction without touching that button. This creates a new dynamic to the game, as a result, it would be possible to use the entire “360 degrees” of movement of the left analog stick, in order to affect passing within a 180 degree system. What I mean by that, is that if you are looking towards the north, then the entire “360 degrees” of the left analog stick can be used to pass the ball, within a 180 degree (west, north, east) system.
So that, for example, if I am looking towards the north, if I pass the ball towards the west, this would not mean that the pass would literally go towards the west, it would mean that the pass would be go towards the north-west more or less; if I direct the pass towards the north-west, the pass would not literally go towards the north-west, the pass would go slightly more towards the north but not exactly in a direct line towards the north; passing the ball towards the south-west would not mean that the ball would literally go towards the south-west, instead it would that the pass would be directed towards the west more or less, etc, etc.
The point is, that it greatly maximizes the variation of passing angles and passing directions, and thus it greatly improves on the replay value of the game, because logically such a system would require more time and more skill to master.
But the claim that you can have “manual passing” and “manual shooting” when the left analog stick is limited by a very restrictive D-Pad system, I just think it is a false selling point, a mere marketing trick.
If directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, is enough to determine a change in direction, then how much depth in terms of dribbling angles and passing angles, can you implement into each direction? How much depth determines if I want to pass the ball towards the left or right foot of the recipient, without also affecting the direction that the ball carrier is looking towards? Not a lot, because if you direct the left analog stick from north to south -without the assistance of any other button- it will be enough to determine a change in direction.
As hard as Konami and EA Sports try to sell it as “manual”, you will always find a lot of inconsistencies, because it’s simply too difficult to cram all those animations into such a tiny space.
My advice for Konami is to maximize the usage of the four buttons that are used for passing and shooting the ball,
1st — without the assistance of the L1 shoulder button, the four buttons that are used for passing and shooting the ball, would work as dribbling buttons, each one with a specific dribbling function.
1st — the (x) button would determine precision touches, the (o) button would determine body positioning, the (triangle) button would determine changes in direction, and the (square) button would determine trademark dribbles.
2nd — with the assistance of the L1 shoulder button, the four buttons that are used for passing and shooting the ball, would work for passing and shooting the ball.
3rd — releasing the left analog stick would not mean that the player would stop running, it would be possible to run towards a given direction whilst at the same time not touching the left analog stick: movement through space would be determined by the pressure sensitive R2 button, releasing the R2 button would mean that the player will stop running, releasing the left analog stick would not affect movement through space.
3rd — and by the same principle, directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, would not be enough for the left analog stick to spark movement through space: for example, directing the left analog stick towards the north, without the assistance of any other button, would never be enough for the player to start running towards the north; the left analog stick would affect direction of movement, but never movement across the length or width of the pitch.
That’s a fairly simple system, using the same buttons that are used for passing and shooting the ball, as part-time dribbling buttons. The system would make it possible, to use the entire capacity of the left analog stick, in order to affect individual things.
I think that would be a marked change that everybody would instantly feel and see as soon as the first pass is completed. And I’m not asking Konami to get everything right on the first year, but to just see them do something different, would be good enough for me to go buy the game, because at least I would know that Konami is pushing for progress.
However, when I see all these little phrases such as “manual passing” and “manual shooting”, I have one simple question: how can it possibly be “manual passing” when the direction of passing, and the direction that the ball carrier is looking at, interfere with one another?
To me, when (a) the direction of passing and (b) the direction that the ball carrier is looking at, interfere with one another, that’s not manual, that’s an automatic system that allows you a little more control than the older more automatic system, but it’s certainly not something that I would describe as manual.
Some people will say that they would be happy with a more balanced version of PES12, and fair play to them, but I just think that PES12 does not have the all important “addictive hook” that older PES games did have, the addictive hook is the result of good execution, and although PES12 does have the ingredients, it fails miserably with the execution.
All i want is KONAMI making PES 2013 the best ever pes game implementing pes 2011 speed, passing and shooting system and watch out for the fans ideas in creation of the game. ALWAYS LOVE PES.
Does nobody have an issue with the referees poor decisions and the fouls and lack of red cards?
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@ Simbob – Yeah man, I do have that issue. Some ridiculous calls sometimes. I don’t know about lack of reds, but definitely I think the refs need to be worked on for next year. Unfortunately the problem with the referees is that there are only 8 degrees of movement on a 2 dimensional screen, so it’s impossible for them to make the right calls.
Anyone played with the patch 1.06 yet?
What are your impressions?
@vieriha
I think it’s a small bit easier to shoot. Just me? I honestly never have problems with shooting and never had. I understand the centrally placed shots are too common, but with the shot modifiers I never struggle thankgod. Also I have only played MLO and bought naeur for goals. He is amazing. What you think?
@ Dave O
COMMENT
Unfortunately the problem with the referees is that there are only 8 degrees of movement on a 2 dimensional screen, so it’s impossible for them to make the right calls.
RESPONSE
I know you’re probably mocking me for whatever the reason, but that’s actually almost correct, it’s difficult for the referee/computer to dictate what is a foul and what isn’t a foul; I mean, when you consider how the tackling system works, what exactly determines the accuracy of the standing tackle? And by the same principle, what exactly determines the accuracy of dribbling?
The game would be very frustrating if every time you touched Lionel Messi, it was an automatic foul, irrespective of how well you timed and directed the standing tackle. So logically, the computer must try to balance the game in order to make it feel more unpredictable, though unfortunately, the big negative of such an automatic system, is that it lacks a lot of consistency; at times you execute the perfect tackle, but the computer decided it was a foul; and at times, you execute the perfect dribble, but the computer decided that it was time for Messi to loose the ball.
At the end of the day, it’s just very difficult and requires a lot of tweaking, I remember PES5 having a problem with fouls, and I feel that PES12 is similar to PES5 in that respect.
If it was possible to use the entire range of movement of the left analog stick in order to determine dribbling and tackling, then the computer would have no problems when deciding what a foul is or isn’t. The current system requires a lot of maintenance and patching, and my point is, again, that I think Konami should stop doing that, because I do not see it working in the long term; Konami needs a foundation that can be tweaked and perfected for years to come, not a foundation that began to look dated back in 2010. You might disagree and mock me, but that’s my two cents on the matter.
Amateur – Don’t waste your time man, I’m not even reading your long winded self centered diatribes. End of.
Vierinha – I don’t notice anything to be honest. I too have never had problems with the shooting, but either way it seems the same to me. I’ve only played about five games so far, so maybe in time some changes may come to light, but it’s certainly not a patch which has addressed the most obvious exploits, which is why I’m a bit disapoointed (again, because they are all easy to fix). Last year and the year before there were patches which really fixed known exploits, and that impressed me a lot, but this year the patch work hasn’t been as good. Hopefully that means Konami have been too busy working on PES 2013 but only time will tell…
PS – Can someone describe what the “shooting problem” is? I hear about it all the time, but nobody ever describes what they find wrong with it. I really don’t get it. Is it another way of saying that it’s difficult to score one v one with the keeper or does the problem apply to long distance shooting as well?
@dave-o
Im glad I’m not the only one that likes the shooting. It feels realistic. A player of even messi’s quality will not finish 10/10 1v1′s in real life. Maybe 8/10. I don’t think the shooting is a cheap tactic by the ai to keep the scores down, I have beaten teams 4-0, 10-0 12-0 in mlo, ml, and against friends. The pacing is everything and the shooting mechanic is time sensitive, i don’t know do konami even know the shooting has as much depth to it! It might not be by design! As I say, I find no problem. The central based shots are a small bit too commen but not gamebreakin in the slightest. In fact, I think the shooting is one of the best features this year with the modifiers.
@ dave and ameteur
Can’t we all just get along!?
No i dont want to jump into yere debate but seriously I understand where both of you are coming from lads. Personally, don’t think konami are too far off the sweet spot.
@Ameteur
I might be 100% wrong with daves points, but as a fellow mlo player, he is right in saying that the problems that need fixing, are easily solved. I played 8 matches tonight, won 5 for a total of 9 points, bringing my total to 698, had 2 lag cheat games (game has no record of the match) and one lag cheat loss. The lag cheat loss was an absolute sickener. It basically is a guy controlling your Internet. I was up 4-1 with 5 minutes to go. Then the lag started, got booted to the title screen, disconnected from Xbox live and he got the win because he made it look like I quit. Now I’m not saying the guy isn’t a coward and online people like him are just out to cheat no matter what but he is a known cheater who I have exposed time and time again. (Check my YouTube) a simple solution would be to implement a detailed feedback system. If he gets 5+ odd victories a week, he gets a 1 hour ban. If he has got 5+ complaints to coincide with the odd pattern, he gets a week ban. That is something konami could do without any networking or game changing revival of he series. Things like that are what need to be done.
I enjoy ur posts mate, I do, and I agree with the ultimate decision that konami can’t keep patching. But, little things like that CAN be fixed. You get me? Its obvious you really love pes and your points are solid.
Also meant to say, in the 9 matches I played, I earned 10 points! Even though i scored 42 goals in 8 games! But the match I was cheated out of, he got the win and I lost 26 points! It’s funny really but it totally undermined my whole day of playing MLO. Things like that are what dave is saying. Am I right dave?
@ Dave O
Oh, I forgot, you have got better things to do with your time….
It’s sad that my opinion about your terrible understanding, has made you dislike me: here’s something you might want to know, you do not know me, I am talking about a video game, and I never offended you.
The fact that you have personally attacked me for absolutely nothing, shows that you are not someone to be taken seriously nor to be respected, because a person like yourself deserves no respect, a person who uses deception as a pretext to justify personal offenses, deserves no respect, you are a liar and a coward.
I make it clear that comments such as,
———————————————————
Amateur: “I’m sorry but you have a very bad idea of what needs to be done….. My advice to Konami would be to ignore fans like yourself who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about…..”
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Do not, under no circumstances, justifies nasty personal attacks such as the following piece of work,
————————————————————-
Dave O: “I think it’s funny that you would take so much offense to that and have to resort to the petty arguments you’ve tried, but failed, to make (on every count). BTW, I’ve got better things to do than bash my head against a wall, which is what talking to you is like so you’ll hear no more from me on this.”
—————————————————————
I looked back and I apologized for some of the “harsher” tone of my first response; you, on the other hand, not only do you personally attacked me because I think you have absolutely no idea about how PES works, but you also took my apology and you wiped your ass with it…. I do not know nor do I particularly care who you are in the real world, but the persona that you bring to this page, is disgusting and uneducated, a liar and a coward, a person whom, when questioned about his opinion, will not even respond with an actual argument, and will instead describe you as a “self centered lonely guy” just because you questioned his opinion.
The next time you want to personally offend a person just because you felt you were personally offended, stay around, don’t run away like a little coward.
Consider this my last response to you, I know you do not care because you treat me like a joke, and you have always treated me like a joke when I have treated you like my equal, I believed you were better than what you are and I apologized for my snap reaction, thank you for showing me that you are not worth my time.
At the end of the day, where PES is concerned you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, and where Amateur is concerned you only know an internet character, I apologized to you, I showed respect and decency to you, you responded by not acknowledging my apology, you responded with yet another personal attack…. The persona that you bring to this forum is insubstantial and sad, a waste of time for anybody who wants to have a real debate, I can sincerely say that I will never again respond to nor acknowledge anything you say. Peace and love.
Anyway…………;)
I hear so many talk about feints, and dribbling, fine tuning, basically wanting precision tackling or touches on the ball to represent real football and although I understand that wish I’m not sure if it can really be implemented in a way that would make the game ‘pick up and play’ friendly? For me in order to play properly as a team I need to see alot of the pitch and a few of my players in other words the camera view is out a bit which is why its difficult to have focused tackling in a way you would see in a real football match…. I remember advocating here before the idea of a very quick camera change from the normal view to a more third person or even first person view where you could perhaps seriously take on other players on a one to one basis…..I think this could make this kind of precision tackling more possible .it definitely could add a new element to the game.
For example imagine yourself playing the game as normal with camera view above or to the side depending on your preference your players are spread out and you pass it around bringing it out of defence into midfield through to Messi or Ronaldo but then with a quick press of a button your camera changes to the Ronaldo/Messi player in third /first person view, with the control system altering to suit this kind of close precision tackling or touches on the ball or even scoring
As for the whole thing about ‘Getting back to their roots’ I don’t think I really no what that means either unless they are trying to appease those fans that talk about bringing back PES 5 or 6? It does sound almost like a backward step though I’m hoping it means more that they are trying to make a game thats much more evolved than the previous versions i just find that hard to believe until I see it though….
I am surprised that Konami are using the phrase “Talk is Cheap” this year particularly after years of releasing games promising great innovations and ending up disappointing alot…..you could see this positively and be thinking Konami must be sitting on a cracker of a game that they can’t wait to get the digs in on FIFA already yet disturbingly its also not far from possibility going by previous times that Konami will use any advertisement or exaggeration to sell a game that hasn’t really changed all to much from the last and its that thought that really puts me off these pr gimmicks the employ
@ Barry
Fully agree with the punishment that you talk about, it is something that does not concern me at all if I’m honest, but I do know a lot of people whom are seriously bummed out by that type of thing, and so I acknowledge that a lot of people would greatly appreciate if Konami can do something to improve in that respect.
Though having said that, I never rejected the suggestion of such improvements, such improvements should be done, the same way that a Fantasy Team Mode should be done, because such improvements require very little effort put into them, yet would make a great deal of difference for a lot of people.
What I did rejected, was the notion that patching an extremely flawed game will pay off in the long run — it won’t, look at the FIFA franchise, FIFA10 was on top of the world, but when you look at FIFA12, and the predominant sentiment is that the FIFA franchise has gone backwards. And they are correct, FIFA has gone backwards, instead of improving the core gameplay, EA Sports focused most of their resources on the same flawed system of player individuality that PES had used for years, on a new collision system, on new modes such as 11 vs 11 and watching Cristiano Ronaldo taking a **** just before the game and whatever new mode they come up with next, but the core gameplay has arguably gone backwards.
My point is, patching flawed gameplay, is not only very difficult and time consuming, but the game barely improves because of it, and as a matter of fact, the game could be worst after a bad patch: bottom line, patching a flawed game is detrimental in the long term, on the other hand, investing time in a solid foundation is very positive in the long term.
Improvement like the punishment that you suggested, improvement like the Fantasy Team Mode that I suggested, has absolutely nothing to do with core gameplay, and therefore it should be fairly easy to do, and therefore it should not interfere with the thing that matters the most, which is the progress of the core gameplay.
What Dave O suggested is patching flaws that are directly related to the core gameplay, and that’s a terrible direction to take, because for every little thing that you patch, a new negative will need to be created: PES5 was like that, PES6 was like that, PES08 was like that, PES09, PES10, PES11, and PES12, were all like that. The core gameplay revolves around an automatic concept, by patching the “crossing”, does the patch change the fact that “crossing” is not manual?
That’s my disagreement with Dave O, as simple as that, he believes that consistently patching little flaws that he believes are easy to fix, is something that Konami needs to do with PES13. What I said to Dave O, is that if patching such things is as simple as he says it is, then why is FIFA12 not the perfect game? Why do people who loved PES11 hate PES12?
Because it’s very hard work, it’s not easy nor simple at all, because for every little thing that you “patch”, you need to intentionally create another flaw that the computer can use to increase the difficulty of the game: such tweaking or “patching” consumes a great deal of time, and at the end of the day, does not actually fixes anything, it merely transfers the flaw from one area to another area, it merely minimizes the flaw in one area and then maximizes a flaw in another area, and then the online exploiters quickly find what that new sweet spot is, and there you have yet another “patch” in the making, etc, etc.
So that’s my disagreement with Dave O, he believes that by patching the crossing sweet spot, that the game will be a lot better; I disagree, I say, if you patch the crossing sweet spot, it will not change the fact that crossing is scripted, it will not change the fact that a new little flaw will come hand in hand with every new patch, and it will certainly not make the game more fun to play, and it will certainly not capture the attention of the people who didn’t bothered buying PES12.
Hardcore fans do not want patches nor maintenance, hardcore fans want manual dribbling, manual passing, manual shooting, manual tackling, that’s what hardcore fans want, and I think Konami cannot offer what hardcore fans want if it continues spending time on small tweaks that (a) consume a great deal of time and (b) will not fix any of the core flaws.
As I’ve said before, I believe Konami has what it takes to make that change happen with PES13, but they need to spend more time on the core gameplay and less time on the little tweaks, they need to spend more time adding a little more animations and less time on the little tweaks, etc, etc. EA Sports has a valid excuse for not making any real improvements to the core gameplay, but I feel Konami isn’t quite in the position to do the same.
As for Dave O, I apologized to him, and he didn’t even acknowledged the fact that I had apologized to him, and to make it worst, he personally offended me on top of already offending me by not acknowledging my apology. My apology still stands because I shouldn’t have responded as strongly as I did in certain parts, but I’m certainly not interested in getting along with someone whom has always treated me like a joke.
Anyways, appreciate the time that you put into this website, it is greatly appreciated.
@ Barry
Fully agree with the punishment that you talk about, it is something that does not concern me at all if I’m honest, but I do know a lot of people whom are seriously bummed out by that type of thing, and so I acknowledge that a lot of people would greatly appreciate if Konami can do something to improve in that respect.
Though having said that, I never rejected the suggestion of such improvements, such improvements should be done, the same way that a Fantasy Team Mode should be done, because such improvements require very little effort put into them, yet would make a great deal of difference for a lot of people.
What I did rejected, was the notion that patching an extremely flawed game will pay off in the long run — it won’t, look at the FIFA franchise, FIFA10 was on top of the world, but when you look at FIFA12, and the predominant sentiment is that the FIFA franchise has gone backwards. And they are correct, FIFA has gone backwards, instead of improving the core gameplay, EA Sports focused most of their resources on the same flawed system of player individuality that PES had used for years, on a new collision system, on new modes such as 11 vs 11 and watching Cristiano Ronaldo taking a s**t just before the game and whatever new mode they come up with next, but the core gameplay has arguably gone backwards.
My point is, patching flawed gameplay, is not only very difficult and time consuming, but the game barely improves because of it, and as a matter of fact, the game could be worst after a bad patch: bottom line, patching a flawed game is detrimental in the long term, on the other hand, investing time in a solid foundation is very positive in the long term.
Improvement like the punishment that you suggested, improvement like the Fantasy Team Mode that I suggested, has absolutely nothing to do with core gameplay, and therefore it should be fairly easy to do, and therefore it should not interfere with the thing that matters the most, which is the progress of the core gameplay.
What Dave O suggested is patching flaws that are directly related to the core gameplay, and that’s a terrible direction to take, because for every little thing that you patch, a new negative will need to be created: PES5 was like that, PES6 was like that, PES08 was like that, PES09, PES10, PES11, and PES12, were all like that. The core gameplay revolves around an automatic concept, by patching the “crossing”, does the patch change the fact that “crossing” is not manual?
That’s my disagreement with Dave O, as simple as that, he believes that consistently patching little flaws that he believes are easy to fix, is something that Konami needs to do with PES13. What I said to Dave O, is that if patching such things is as simple as he says it is, then why is FIFA12 not the perfect game? Why do people who loved PES11 hate PES12?
Because it’s very hard work, it’s not easy nor simple at all, because for every little thing that you “patch”, you need to intentionally create another flaw that the computer can use to increase the difficulty of the game: such tweaking or “patching” consumes a great deal of time, and at the end of the day, does not actually fixes anything, it merely transfers the flaw from one area to another area, it merely minimizes the flaw in one area and then maximizes a flaw in another area, and then the online exploiters quickly find what that new sweet spot is, and there you have yet another “patch” in the making, etc, etc.
So that’s my disagreement with Dave O, he believes that by patching the crossing sweet spot, that the game will be a lot better; I disagree, I say, if you patch the crossing sweet spot, it will not change the fact that crossing is scripted, it will not change the fact that a new little flaw will come hand in hand with every new patch, and it will certainly not make the game more fun to play, and it will certainly not capture the attention of the people who didn’t bothered buying PES12.
Hardcore fans do not want patches nor maintenance, hardcore fans want manual dribbling, manual passing, manual shooting, manual tackling, that’s what hardcore fans want, and I think Konami cannot offer what hardcore fans want if it continues spending time on small tweaks that (a) consume a great deal of time and (b) will not fix any of the core flaws.
As I’ve said before, I believe Konami has what it takes to make that change happen with PES13, but they need to spend more time on the core gameplay and less time on the little tweaks, they need to spend more time adding a little more animations and less time on the little tweaks, etc, etc. EA Sports has a valid excuse for not making any real improvements to the core gameplay, but I feel Konami isn’t quite in the position to do the same.
As for Dave O, I apologized to him, and he didn’t even acknowledged the fact that I had apologized to him, and to make it worst, he personally offended me on top of already offending me by not acknowledging my apology. My apology still stands because I shouldn’t have responded as strongly as I did in certain parts, but I’m certainly not interested in getting along with someone whom has always treated me like a joke.
Anyways, appreciate the time that you put into this website, it is greatly appreciated.
@ Lucifer666
COMMENT
I hear so many talk about feints, and dribbling, fine tuning, basically wanting precision tackling or touches on the ball to represent real football and although I understand that wish I’m not sure if it can really be implemented in a way that would make the game ‘pick up and play’ friendly?
RESPONSE
Not really, even though it would take some time to get used to, I think it would still be pick up and play; tapping the (x) button without the assistance of the L1 button, is for dribbling; tapping the (x) button with the assistance of the L1 button, is for passing…..
I just fail to see anything complicated about it, I mean, sure, getting used to much more directions of movement would take some hours of getting used to, but it certainly would not be anything complicated, after a faw hours of play the game would be as “pick up and play” as PES12 is, but with much more depth.
Furthermore, Konami has been very concerned with the “pick up and play” aspect of the game, and so far, that has only brought negative results for Konami’s franchise, because if “pick up and play” is your thing, then FIFA has better animations and on top of that all the licenses, so who do you think comes out winning?
Let’s be honest, PES12 and FIFA12, are these “pick up and play” video games? I mean, am I supposed to beat a FIFA12 owner even though I have not played FIFA12 in the last three moths? I just think there’s something wrong with the direction of the game, when you can play FIFA10 and then play FIFA12, and not have any problems adapting your game. I think there are “pick up and play” games, and then beneath that, is PES12 and FIFA12. It’s beyond a joke at this point, both Konami and EA Sport need to do more, a game should not feel identical after three years worth of “improvements”.
Furthermore, the camera should not affect precision touches in any way, you could watch almost all of the pitch, and still get a good glimpse of precision touches, it’s really a non-issue as far as I’m concerned. I do not reject your idea of a dynamic camera, as the idea definitely sounds cool, but I fail to see why the camera should be an obstacle…. even from afar, precision touches are fairly noticeable; and even if you can’t see it all that well, it doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and it shouldn’t affect you because you would know how the control operates.
Personally, my choice would be a dynamic camera that would get a bit closer to the action every time you touch the dribbling buttons, but I feel that a third person or first person view would be too much, I don’t reject the idea as some people might like it, but personally I prefer something more subtle.
As for the “talk is cheap” marketing stunt, fully agree with you, it’s interesting to say the least, but the skeptic in me says it’s just a trick.
Regarding all the changes that are needed to make the game better it maybe that PES13 is the last PES to be specifically made for the PS3 and that PES14 maybe on the PS4.
With this scenario it could be that as with the last transition we are back to square one for the PS4 version without hitting the heights on the PS3 as we did for the PS2 with PES06…..this would be a worry for PES14……im going to buy PES13 for the simple reason it maybe the best Konami have to offer for the next 5 years…..on a plus side maybe that the changes that we are looking for could be done on the PS4 easier than the PS3 but either way its going to be interesting to see how the PS4 compares to the PS3/PS2 versions of PES……..
@Barry – Yeah, that’s what I mean. Simple fixes like that, or toning down the speed, or the cheap manual free kicks (passing to a target man standing in the goal), etc.
And for the record my problem with Amateur is that he doesn’t listen and simply likes to argue for the sake of it. I’ve said already that the points he’s making and the point I’m making are not mutually exclusive, yet he continues to act like we are having an argument! Ha ha. There’s no arument here in my opinion, but I think I offended him with the reality I try to inject into his ideas about gaming. Personally I think his perspective is sort of interesting, but not PES and not a game I want to play. Enough said? I guess from my perspective I’m talking about PES and he’s talking about his own dream game which, in my opinion, would probably be a huge fail if he was actually given the money to make it a reality, because his ideas are contradictory in a lot of ways and reflect what he wants, not what I think the majority of gamers want. Also, the guy just pisses me off. For example the way he always refers to himself as “hardcore.” Just because you like hard games doesn’t make you better than anyone else. I played and finished dark souls, and also all the kings field games for PS2, but even if that wasn’t the case, I don’t look down at people for the games they play as if they are somehow lesser beings.
Maybe I’m getting old and my eyesight is not as it once was lol though I have to say I think the quick camera change to a closer/3rd person/1st person view could be a good addition..they could even have the option of making your screen split between the two views so on one side you would see the pitch and a couple of players on the other side you only see what the highlighted player does. but I do feel there is a difference play-wise between controlling a player up close to controlling a far away one the possibilities are much more open to create more precision touches or tackling in close up view
Unlike many here though I am a big advocate for improving all aspects of the game and not just focus on the gameplay which granted needs evolving and improvements but its not the end all and be all for me….after all the game is still playable as is,…. what disturbs me more year in year out is stuff like unaltered bad commentaries, cardboard crowds in the stands, A Master League that hasn’t really changed since ps2 days, stuff being taken out or swapped for other stuff, etc
Everyone’s different I guess!