Thank you to the few of you who left comments to my last article about Polls. I guess Amateur made a very valid point about how we connect with you guys when many of you are disappointed with the game.
This is a pretty complex question, as there are many different views out there, so it’s hard to connect and find common ground enough to satisfy everyone. What we can do is try to isolate common themes of interest. Whilst it’s easy to concentrate on the positive traits we share about the game, I strongly feel that it’s the negative traits that bring out stronger emotions in everyone.
Whilst there are many ideas on what’s broken in PES, and what needs fixing in the core game, today I’d like to discuss the topic you all love to hate – Barca Boys. For those of you not quite in the know, or to recap for those that do, the bain of Barca Boys is having to play teams of Barca EVERY SINGLE TIME in MLO mode. So many of us are sick to death of having to play against the same two or three teams which contain the same set of super players.
I’ve written a couple of articles a good few months ago last year with some of my ideas on how to combat this. Without trying to cover too much previous ground, I’ve suggested having a no Champion’s League teams mode for MLO/friendlies. It would mean people pick more balanced teams which may have at best two or three top players only. It would mean people play each other based on strategies best suited to that team against their opponents. You’d hopefully come up against a few teams you’ve never played before and found them a challenge without being impossibly difficult to play against. Most of the time in MLO when an opponents plays with a super duper team, you’re forced to follow suit. This mode would put an immediate end to that.
I’ve asked Konami on a few occasions to provide me with a definitive behind the scenes breakdown of how they combat cheats.
We’ve been told about players that quit often will be penalised. But unless you actively ruin your stats, you have to take what they say as gospel. Whilst I’m not trying to say that Konami are lying to us, it would be beneficial for all if the penalisation system was explained and demonstrated to us. It would help some much need good will. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts this information still hasn’t been revealed. If it ever makes the light of day, I’ll be sure to post it straight away.
Something else which many people want to see is a uniform set of parameters for playing online. This related primarily to the assistance levels for passing and shooting. For the hardcore players amongst us, we play with zero assistance. But when you’re online, you’re actually at a disadvantage against those players with assistance. I would have thought that playing without assistance should have been akin to driving manually in car games. We all know that if you drive in automatic mode and are pitted against manual drivers – they will drive better than you because they’re mastering the control. This principle seems to be lost in PES.
We’re actually penalised for attempting to play with no assistance – which renders it useless online for many!
I’m also kicking off a new Poll entitled Barca Boys – please have your say in a tangible poll which once again can clearly take the fight to Konami from us. I’ve got a few more polls which I want to ask direct questions with the aim of presenting these facts and figures. To do this effectively, I need more than the 100 odd voters for polls that I’ve managed to get of late. Thank you very much to those who’d made the effort to vote – but please spread the word to your mates. The more votes, the more representation being made.
For those of you asking what’s the point – I say quite simply – we’re putting up a fight all the way. We’re not going to give up.
We care about PES and we want to do whatever we can to try to influence it’s production. You can either moan and do nothing, or you can try to make a difference – it’s your choice. Join us in getting the message across to Konami – we’re in this together.
Thanks for reading.
Dougiedonut
(dougiedonut@pesgaming.com)
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the problem is every 1 picks the best players once they get enough money u cant really stop that on MLO its ur team u can buy who u want. but id rather it was how good u were at usein the lesser players. any 1 can look good usein the best 32 players in the game the problem i have is with cheats ppl laggin out or the people makein dummy players all 32 dummy players in there team wen they start no ruskin, marco, stein its dummy 1 2 3 4 and so on they change there stats to like wat ronaldo and messi stats are and make them look like the real ronaldo and all its sum patch the cheats r doin thats how u see people with the top 32 players in the game in less than a week of makein there game and all. its all dummy players aka fake players that the cheaters patch lets then have and they can edit there stats and looks so they look like the real players in the game
Dougie – I’m thinking you mean online match mode, not MLO. In MLO you can’t choose “Barca” because every team is custom made.
Gary – Do you have any proof of this contention about fake players in MLO, or is it just a theory? How is that possible when you can’t choose custom created players in MLO (as far as I know)?
dougiedonut
We love playing against the same super duper teams every time.
Two top teams going head 2 head, fair game 2 me, at thee end of the day, if ur playing Pes online, u will allready av a group of m8s who u play against, or with, my xbox gamers r always asking 4 a game, so np, when using small times, just set up an unranked game, off u go, pick Blackburn Rovers, & Jason Roberts was a goal machine, in the virtual world.
Today I played the Wii version of PES 2012. What a game! I played with semi assisted pass and now I have to admit that is not that easy and it’s very fun. you just can play the ball wherever you want! That’s got to be the concept of passing to PES’s in other consoles and PC. It’s just incredible. Imo, Wii’s PES 2012 is the best PES I ever played. Even better than PES 5/6.
Peace.
PS: In Wii versiion, the passin is nothing like in PS3, X360 or PC.
@ Dave O yes dave i have seen it and i couldnt believe it its just blank face players there stats are 25 every player but the patch the cheaters have lets them edit the players stats and the looks of the player thats how ppl have the top 32 players in MLO within a short time. i even seen sum 1 have all the top 32 players in 1 week thats impossable too much cheatin goin on. i seen the dummy players wen i looked at the leader board and looked at the teams history and its was dummy player 1 2 3 4 5 and so on full 32 players of dummy 1s he didnt start with default players he started with dummy players with no faces its shockin that konami dont sort this out
@ dave rember konami sent a patch out about 4 months ago and it says about duplicate players thats wat it ment the dummy players that looked like the real players in the game it was goin on form the start of the game wen it came out i have stopped playin it online this past week its pointless cus too many cheaters
I’m in North America, so maybe it hasn’t impacted us over here. I’ve seen no sign of it, and I am in the habit of “investigating” other players when things seem fishy. In general though I agree about being disillusioned about the game (and humanity in general) because of so much cheating. To me the big one is the freekick bug where if you position a target player in the goal then pass to him it’s almost an instant goal requiring no skill. You have to have no soul to take advantage of something like that, so believe it or not I’ve resorted to disconnecting (no penalty or reward) when someone cheats like this. It’s the only way to teach them that if you don’t have basic integrity then others will treat you the same way in turn.
@ Dougiedonut
The Barca Boys is a good subject…. I think it would be very interesting if all of us can find some spare time to record matches against the Barca Boys, in order to, as you mentioned, “isolate” the flaws that we hate about the game, then we can transfer that to YouTube, and basically, prepare very good feedback for Konami. I feel that would be a cool thing to do, it would be collective work, it would be different, I think we can and should do it.
Though having said that, perhaps there are already enough YouTube videos around, enough to make a master compilation of the greatest annoyances. I feel that a YouTube video would be of great use to this website, as it would validate our complaints with complete objectivity.
For the record, I want to add that I’m not against the idea of playing against top sides such as Barcelona all the time, playing against the same team all the time does not annoy me, it’s the fact that when you play against Barca the outcome is usually decided by a random factor that even if you can see it coming you can do nothing to prevent it, that’s what really bothers me. Though, again, the problem is that fixing that flaw requires fundamental changes to the game….
In any case, I appreciate your effort, and furthermore, I want to reaffirm my perspective by making it clear that I do not find your articles nor any other articles boring, I just find the game boring, which in turn makes me loose interest in the articles: furthermore, again, I do not believe that “agreeing” is of any real importance where the bigger picture is concerned, I feel that video footage is a simple way of highlighting the flaws that most fans are disappointed with, irrespective of your opinion about the game.
I mentioned something about a “skeptic writer”, but perhaps the only thing that is needed is a bit of YouTube videos here and there, with YouTube we can connect with a much larger audience, and I just feel PESGaming should try something via YouTube.
At the end of the day, the decline of regulars is a mere reaction of the fact that most of England bought FIFA12 instead of PES12; in fact, if you regularly visit the PESGaming forums, you should know that most regulars play FIFA12 instead of PES12, which says a lot. So, again, as fans, the best thing we can do is be objective with our criticism, too positive or too negative almost never amounts to something good.
@ dave i no wat u mean about free kicks it happens to me alot cus im in D1 most ppl whos in that cheat every freekick they put a man on ur line then hit it to him goes in all the time no offside there is nothing u can do to stop it things like that mess up this game lets all hope they slow the players down to wat pes 11 was and the same game play
Good stuff… Lets dedicate another week to discuss whats wrong with PES.
It’s so damn boring.
You even started your article by saying that you have already written two articles about the same topic.
How about taking in to consideration that many have bought the latest PES game and would prefer to learn how to get the most out of it rather than being reminded whats wrong with it week after week after sorry f*cking week????
Hints, tips, strategies, new skills – How about it?
You know what, I give up…
I thought it was really lame that on the official PES facebook page they are giving a tip for how to take effective low corners. To me that’s unrealistic play if you take low hard corners all the time because it almost never happens in real football, and verges on exploiting the game. I hate scripting as much as anyone else, but I’m starting to think some degree of “programming” is needed to make the game harder to exploit with regards to plays that are not effective in real football (if they are cheap and overly effective). The big concern I have with this trend towards a game that is highly subject to exploitation is that the advances in manual control seem to bring with them more and more of this. For example, the free kick cheat mentioned above would never happen without the manual target passing we now have on freekicks. Likewise, I don’t like the sounds of the potential for exploitation of the new manual shooting or full manual passing. The passing in particular Konami describe in a way that concerns me, in that they seem to be saying it’s a great way for hoofing the ball up into blind space and hoping for a bit of luck if your striker can latch onto it. Can’t they see what this will mean for PVP online? I can just imagine playing against idiots who will have no build up play but just continually hit these hopeful long manual passes through the middle until it results in a breakaway they don’t really deserve. And as a defender, what do you do? What skill is there in this sort of gaming?
I get annoyed with the online cheats too though the MLO is not really a concern as I don’t play it that often however I have to say I be shocked when I come here (which is less regularly these days) that not more is discussed about The Master League and how it can be improved after all a hell of alot of fans of the series spend most of their time in that mode and yet its the least referred to in terms of improvement or change. Personally I thought PES2012′ Master League was a step forward adding in the animations of the manager’s office with players coming in and your assistant giving you tactics, etc….it’s a good concept but Konami have done it again lazily and after just a few weeks playing it has become tedious and boring and almost a chore to go through because there is absolutely no variety nor does the game evolve as your team does..and now I fear they may have put people off the whole thing altogether and that they will all want to just go back to normal text info pages as before. My dreams of a much more virtual interactive Master League could be further away than ever?
Sorry if I changed the subject Dougie but did feel this had to be said
Pingback: allsoccer-football.com » Blog Archive » PES Matters 13th May 2012
@Lucifer666 – I would personally prefer they dial back the amount of animated scenes for ML and BAL. I just think it will always be repetetive no matter what so I would prefer if they had less animated sequences, but better ones. Only major events, for example, but not every little scene. Text is actually better in some ways because it leaves something to the imagination. Just my opinion as always…
@ Dave O
Well for me.. I assumed that there would be more animated scenes that would come in later as your game and team changed and I was hoping that it would be something to seriously build on in terms of making the ML more interactive or even a bit more of a sandbox experience yet whether its text pages or animations or a virtual world we are dealing with here Konami seem unable or unwilling to keep things fresh or progressively interesting, in fairness there was loads of animations and interactive options that should have been added where the player has real decisions to make instead we get stupid events happening like a young youth player just promoted up demanding a 10 shirt or a Footballer or two mad because they were played out of position for the last few minutes of a match…it would never happen in real life.
In my opinion If done right the ML three or four seasons down the line should feel much different than the first season playing and even a greater difference after ten seasons with various different options and a commentary thats evolved and reflects your time playing .. its the only way I believe to keep the mode’s longevity
Dave O wrote the following the comment: “The big concern I have with this trend towards a game that is highly subject to exploitation is that the advances in manual control seem to bring with them more and more of this.”
Although that is most definitely an accurate statement if you take the term “manual” out of it, the fact remains that the term “manual” destroys the validity of the rest of the sentence. Neither PES12 nor FIFA12 actually offer “manual” control, what you get is the same old D-Pad system but with an upgrade in range of directions via the left analog stick, meaning that instead of just 8 directions, you get a little more, but it certainly is neither “manual” nor “360″, it still is very much a D-Pad video game.
If you carry out a simple observation, you will quickly realize that the left analog stick does not really offers a lot in terms of directions, there are only eight well defined directions, and perhaps a few grey areas where you can get a few added directions, but it certainly is not even remotely close to “360″ degree movement, the movement is still linear in both PES12 and FIFA12 (though EA Sports knows how to hide it better).
The only possible way of implementing real manual control into the game, is by changing, not necessarily the animations engine nor the graphics, but by changing the core execution of the game. The current execution of the game is linear irrespective of whether you use the D-Pad or the left analog, because….
Here is the flaw that creates the one-dimensional “linear” movements: (1st action) direct the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button and (1st reaction) the ball carrier starts running towards the given direction + (2nd action) direct the left analog stick towards the opposite direction of the pre-existing direction of movement and (2nd reaction) the ball carrier abruptly and immediately changes the direction of movement, and will now run towards the newly determined direction……
That is most irrefutably not “circular” movement, that’s “linear” movement, you can shift from north to south, west to east, by simply directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button: linear movements, as should be expected from a D-Pad system. The very massive fundamental problem is very simple, you have a video game that is supposed to be 3D, that still runs on 2D mechanics.
Here’s a demonstration of why the system does not work: (1st action) direct the left analog stick towards the north *and let’s say that the north is the equivalent of running towards the defender in front of you* and (1st reaction) the ball carrier runs in a straight line towards the defender in front of him + (2nd action) direct the left analog stick towards the north-west and (2nd reaction) the ball carrier abruptly and immediately starts running in a straight line towards the newly indicated direction, the ball carrier is not changing his body positioning towards the north-west and simultaneously running towards the north, the ball carrier is actually running towards the north-west; as can be easily observed, the massive fundamental flaw, is that it is impossible to move within just one direction of movement, it is impossible to touch the ball towards many different directions and at the same time run towards just one direction of movement, it is impossible to separate (a) direction of ball movement and (b) direction of running into independent elements, it is only possible to move by constantly and perpetually “zigzagging” from one direction of movement to another direction of movement, that should not be described as “manual control”, that’s a limitation of 2D video games, and that’s a limitation that should not be a problem where 3D analog-based video games are concerned.
The mentioned flaw, makes it impossible to implement real manual control into the game, because essential factors such as (a) direction and (b) timing and (c) movement, are all attached to just one button and at the same time unaffected by any other button…. It is impossible to do what Mortal Kombat does on a 2D plane -giving each character their own unique response times- because the gamer does not have any real control over the game, the gamer does not have any real control over timing nor direction nor movement, which is why video games like PES12 and FIFA12 cannot offer real manual control and are riddled with inconsistencies that cannot be fixed via minor tweaks.
What PES12 and FIFA12 offer is inevitably detrimental for the very essential factor of player individuality, it’s the same old system but with a reduced sense of player individuality….. EA Sports tried and failed, with the player individuality, because the system offers two inevitable outcomes: (a) star players are just too good and the game feels arcade because of that, and (b) star players are not good enough and the player individuality is not as good as it used to be. Inevitable outcomes of the dated system: warm or cold, black or white, it has not and will not reach the potential that we expected back in the PS2 days (when the flaws of the system had not yet expired).
At the end of the day, “manual control” should be of no concern where PES and FIFA are concerned, because neither PES nor FIFA are actually capable of offering manual control. Any person that is concerned about “manual control” having a detrimental effect on the player individuality, any person who thinks that “manual control” brings with it more ways in which to exploit cheap flaws, does not understand what “manual control” actually is. Mortal Kombat offers manual control on a 2D plane. We have never seen real manual control on a 3D sports game.
With real manual control, you get ten times better player individuality, you get a much better game due to all the massive advantages that it offers on all areas, and the obvious sweet spots that cheaters like to exploit would no longer exist…. So if you happen to be concerned about the trend of “manual control” advances, you are wasting your time with that, we have seen no “advances” in terms of manual control, what we have seen are advances in the same old D-Pad system, a questionable perfection of the method, but certainly not something that should be described as “manual control” as is far removed from that.
In any case, every person that enjoyed playing the PS2 versions of PES should be looking forwards to the implementation of real manual control, real manual control should not be described as a perfection of the method, but as a revolution, a new foundation on which new progress will be made.
Amateur – These comments are really overly generalized in my opinion. It seems like you think you are saying a lot but as a reader I have to say that you’re not being specific enough (in terms of your proposed solution) so it’s all just comig across as empty talk. Stop beating around the bush and get down to brass tacks (and please let the argumentative attitude go)! I’ll listen, but keep it short and try to explain yourself so that it is as simple as possible (clearly communicate your ideas without talking around them in circles). For example, let’s keep it simple and talk about passing. How does your proposed system work? Don’t tell me about 2D versus 3D and hype up a system you have in mind which you haven’t explained, just explain it.
Also, I use the term manual in the same way everyone else in the industry uses it, so let’s not try to start an argument about how I don’t understand what it means. I understand what I mean by it and I bet my house everyone else reading this does as well. You, on the other hand, step in and make the contention that nobody in the world understands what it means except you… And yet you stop short of actually explaining what the hell you are talking about! See what I am saying? I don’t hate you man, I’m just trying to help point out that the things you are saying are not coming across as realistic (or intelligible) to others (well, me, anyway). So again, tell me in a real and direct way how your concept of manual passing is different from what the reast of us idiots think it is… Promising us that it will vastly improve player individuality without explaining what it is that you are proposing comes off as the sort of promises politicians make around election time. Anyway, this perspective I have is standard for critiquing anything (art, literature)… The work (your idea) should speak for itself without you having to pump it up and tell us how great it is. Do you see what I’m saying? Share your idea and let it speak for itself. It’s that simple.
@ Lucifer666
Personally, I couldn’t care less about the Master League when the core gameplay bores me to sleep, and the MLO is such a massive universe in its own right, that I fail to see why the ML and MLO should be a priority. All things considered, I think PES sales will continue going down if Konami continues with the ML and MLO, Konami has a much smaller team than EA Sports, if they continue with the ML and MLO and BAL without increasing the size of their team, the sales of PES will continue going down. If Konami cannot increase the size of their team, then they should really focus all of their energy on the animations, the gameplay, the graphics, and the regular online play, and forget about everything else. Otherwise, more and more people will realize that the gameplay of PES is average at best, and they will not buy the game.
If anybody who frequents the home page also frequents the forums, then you should know that the vast majority of forum regulars are playing FIFA12 instead of PES12, now that is a fact that I think should be acknowledged in the home page of PESGaming.
At the end of the day, I am completely against your opinion, I do not think you are considering all the important variables -such as the fact that Konami has a much smaller team than EA Sports, added to the fact that the core gameplay needs to be massively improved- and you’re just focusing on the things that matter the most to you without considering how it would affect the bigger picture.
I make it clear that I’m not against your suggestions from a conceptual point of view, but when you consider the fact that a lot of people do not like the gameplay, that Konami have yet to offer good enough online play, to me it seems like you want to jump steps and just get what you want, I don’t think you’re considering the bigger picture, you need to walk before you run. Maybe I’m missing something, but that’s my two cents.
A lot of comments and I’ll go back and read them. I hope it has already been mentioned, but a simple salary cap on MLO would solve everything and make people have to build proper teams.
@ Dave O
COMMENT
These comments are really overly generalized in my opinion.
RESPONSE
I disagree, I cannot see why I’m generalizing about anything. I mean, sure, I’m not specifically explaining everything step by step, but the criticism still is considerably specific in its own light. My point is fairly specific: to describe what PES12 and FIFA12 offer as an advancement in terms of “manual control” is logically incorrect and invalid.
What PES12 and FIFA12 offer is the same old flawed thing with more directions to it, the mechanics of the system remain 2D to this day, this is why -for example- when you take the very same D-Pad system and apply it to the left analog stick: the result is simple, the flaws will be exposed to greater effect, because the system itself is not “smart” or sophisticated enough for the left analog stick.
So yes, in a way, you are correct when you say that the trend of “manual control” advances, comes hand in hand with more cheap exploits. However, the part where you are wrong, is in describing these questionable “advances” as “manual control” advances: it’s not manual, it cannot be manual, it has never been and never will be manual due to the limitations of the D-Pad system used on a 3D plane.
PES and FIFA are stat-based automatic video games, you cannot perfect the method and get “manual control” as a result, you can, however, get more directions of passing and more directions of movement, but cannot get more control nor more freedom over the game, simply because the engine of the game is not designed to comprehend what “manual” needs to be on a 3D plane: it’s an automatic game, more directions of passing will not change the fact that over-hit passes are not actually determined by your ability as a gamer, more directions of “dribbling” will not change the fact that you are not actually dribbling because it’s impossible to move within one direction of movement, etc, etc. The system is 2D, and Konami and EA Sports simply implemented that 2D system into the left analog stick, and as a result, you get more flaws to exploit, because the 2D system is not smart enough to counter the capacity of the left analog stick (even when the left analog stick is not used properly).
Manual control has little to do with “360″ degree passing and movement, manual control is actually having control over the video game regardless of the game being 2D or 3D or whatever. Of course, the point being that PES and FIFA cannot offer manual control….
Is that a generalization? I fail to see why. Sure, I’m not explaining how it could be done, but the criticism still is fairly specific as far as I’m concerned.
I think you’ve made the mistake of assuming that I think I’m saying a lot: well, I don’t think I’m saying a lot, I think I’m only saying very little, but what I’m saying -in order to say it with enough clarity- requires more than just a few words.
@ Dave O
COMMENT
It seems like you think you are saying a lot but as a reader I have to say that you’re not being specific enough (in terms of your proposed solution) so it’s all just comig across as empty talk.
RESPONSE
I have a very specific solution, however, I never proposed a solution, I merely pointed out the flaw. As the writer, I think you are putting words in my mouth and in doing so you are coming off as a condescending reader who was looking for something that wasn’t there.
If you’re genuinely interested specifically in a solution, I will gladly share my very specific opinion with you, but other than that, you made a false accusation when you mentioned “proposed solution”.
Again, you’ve managed to say nothing. Out with it boy! What IS your solution? If you don’t have one, everything you are saying is pointless. For example, saying that manual is not really manual is nonsensical, because it’s all we have, and when anyone (myself included) talks about manual we mean that with regards to the obvious difference between CPU assited passing and passing which is more based on the user’s input. It is not crazy to call that manual! If you want to explain what “true manual” is, then fine, that would be great, but until you do it’s just pie in the sky stuff… It means nothing and therefore we have nothing to talk about. Try arguing with someone who says “you don’t know anything, I know everything and I know that you’re wrong, but I won’t tell you why… It’s my little secret…” How can I even discuss that sort of self supporting but entirely unsubstantiated claim?
@ Dave O
COMMENT
I’ll listen, but keep it short and try to explain yourself so that it is as simple as possible (clearly communicate your ideas without talking around them in circles). For example, let’s keep it simple and talk about passing. How does your proposed system work? Don’t tell me about 2D versus 3D and hype up a system you have in mind which you haven’t explained, just explain it.
RESPONSE
Ok, fair enough (and surprised that you’re actually asking), I’ll give you my take on how I would do it and will try to keep it as brief and as simple as possible.
Manual control…. Today, whenever the catch phrase “manual control” is thrown around, people think about “360″ degree passing and “360″ degree movements, when in truth PES5 on the PS2 -with only eight directions of movement- offered more “manual control” than either PES12 or FIFA12 can offer; the key reason why certain fans still say that PES5 is better than any of the PS3 offerings (including PES12), because even though it is a much more one-dimensional game, you have more control over the game.
When you take what PES5 had to offer, and you implement that D-Pad system into the left analog stick, is similar to taking the engine of a Mini Cooper and implementing it into a truck: it doesn’t work very well. The reason is simple, what PES5 had to offer was flawed to begin with, an eight directional 2D system applied to a 3D pitch, it was successful because -since it was only eight directional- the flaws were easy to locate, and thus, the computer was very effective in scripting the game in a balanced way that left the gamer feeling in control over the game.
Now, when you take what PES5 had to offer, and you implement that D-Pad system into the left analog stick, and you advertise what you have as “manual control”, you have some serious problems. It no longer is an eight directional game where the stats reflect on the pitch with much more ease and where the computer can script the game and yet remain rather invisible. Now you have a “360″ directional game where, if you don’t give enough control to average players, then the difference between star players and average players would be too unrealistic, and as a result a casual fan who picks Barcelona will easily win every time provided his opponent is playing with a more average team; now you have a game where if you try to close the gap between star players and average players, then you get cheap exploits such as using average players and then sending long balls all game long, fully knowing that in one of those occasions one of them long balls will slip through, etc, etc.
As a result, the script becomes much more apparent than when the game was eight directional, and the number of flaws waiting to be exploited increases exponentially: at the end of the day, the computer cannot balance the game properly, the computer can only shift from super human star players to average players sending perfect long balls, and because it is very easy to read the script, it is fairly easy to master the art of exploiting obvious flaws. In other words, the D-Pad engine or “brain” of the game is not smart enough to counter all the variables that the left analog stick has to offer….
That’s where your valid concern comes from, the fact that these so-called “manual control” advancements come hand in hand with more cheap exploits and with reduced player individuality. Though it should be clear, that these advancements are not “manual” anything, regardless of however the industry decides to advertise it.
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How would I fix that? What solution do I offer?
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The concept that I propose is simple, using the entire capacity of movement that the left analog stick has to offer, in order to affect directions of passing, directions of dribbling, directions of shooting, within just one direction of movement.
Example: (1st action) whilst moving towards the east *east meaning the opponent’s penalty area* direct the left analog stick towards the north *without the assistance of the L1 shoulder button* and (1st reaction) nothing actually happens, no change of direction, no movement through space, nothing, the ball carrier will continue running towards the east and looking towards the east; moving the left analog stick without the assistance of one of the four buttons that are used for passing and shooting the ball, will never affect neither the direction of movement nor the direction of sight + (2nd action) press and release the L1 shoulder button, and then press the short pass button *whilst giving a direction with the left analog stick* and (2nd reaction) the ball carrier *still moving and looking towards the east* will pass the ball towards the given direction *though the pass will not be literally directed towards the given direction*
Here’s another example to further clarify the system: (1st action) whilst moving towards the east *the east means towards the opponent’s penalty area, which means that north is the flank area to your left* direct the left analog stick towards the north, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button, and then press and release the short passing button, and (1st reaction) the ball carrier passes the ball, the pass is not directed literally towards the north, the pass is directed towards the north-east…. This means that -given the same exact scenario- had you directed the pass towards the north-west, then the actual pass would have been directed towards an area between the east and north, not exactly north.
Here’s an example to highlight an essential aspect of the passing system that I have in mind: (1st action) whilst moving towards the east *the east means towards the opponent’s penalty area, which means that the north is the flank area to your left* direct the left analog stick slightly towards the north, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button, and (1st reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you press and release the L1 shoulder button, however, the first time that you press and release the L1 shoulder button after each pass is set in motion, you locate and select the recipient of the next pass….
When selecting the recipient of the pass, it is important to consider that directing the left analog stick slightly towards the north would locate Target-A, whereas directing the left analog stick dramatically towards the north would locate Target-B, therefore it is important to be aware of the fact that the direction of the left analog stick + how far you direct the left analog stick within the given direction + press and release the L1 button for the first time since the last pass was set in motion, will locate the recipient of the next pass; and just as important, is to be aware of the fact that you can easily reset the whole procedure, by simply pressing and releasing the long ball button without the assistance of the left analog stick (read: releasing the left analog stick before pressing and releasing the long ball button), and the result will be that you will not have a recipient to pass the ball to, which means that you would need to once again repeat the whole procedure, in order to locate a new recipient for the next pass.
It is important to point out, that after locating and selecting the recipient of the pass, you will still need to press and hold the L1 button in order to pass the ball. The procedure is simple: the first time you press and release the L1 shoulder button *after the last pass was set in motion* you locate and select the recipient of the pass, but in order to pass the ball, you need to (1st action) press and hold the L1 shoulder button + (2nd action) press and release the passing button, whilst giving a direction with the left analog stick. It is also worth noting that, when resetting the procedure, you simply restart the whole procedure of selecting and locating the target, thus making it easy to start and restart quickly.
That added dimension of selecting the recipient of the pass, makes it possible to determine the weight of the pass, but without compromising the distance that the pass will cover: for example, you could pass a hard-hit pass to the player whom is closest to you or to the player whom is farther away from you, with the distance of the pass and the weight of the pass being determined by independent buttons.
It is also important to note, that as a result, the usage of the short pass would be maximized, because the short pass would be replaced by passing to the feet, but passes to the feet could be either long or short, and therefore the short pass is no longer needed in any way.
And even more important, the added dimension of selecting the recipient of the pass, further maximizes the range of passing directions, because not only does the entire capacity of the left analog stick works in order to determine “360″ degrees of passing directions within just one “linear” direction of running movement, but by selecting the recipient of the pass, the entire capacity of the left analog stick is concentrated only on the one target that you selected. This means that the direction of precision touches on the ball, which is determined by the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick, is concentrated on just one “linear” direction of running movement; whereas the direction of passing, which is also determined by the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick, is concentrated, not on the direction of movement through space (read: running movement), but on the selected target…. Thus greatly maximizing the range of directions and variables, when passing the ball and when dribbling with the ball.
And the last dimension to the passing system, would be determined by that same mechanic that is used for selecting the recipient of the pass: (1st action) having already selected and located the recipient of the pass, slightly direct the left analog stick towards the north, and then press and hold the L1 button, and then press and release the short pass button *whilst holding the L1 button* and (1st reaction) the result will be a short pass that, if the recipient of the ball decides to wait for the ball to touch his feet instead of reaching for the ball, then the ball will not reach him, because the pass was intentionally meant to fall short, irrespective of how much weight you put behind the pass.
When executing short passes, the recipient of the pass would not automatically move towards the ball, instead, the gamer himself would need to press or not press the pressure sensitive R2 shoulder button, in order to determine if the recipient of the pass will move towards the ball or if the recipient of the pass will just wait for the ball to reach him. In other words, this means that by not pressing the R2 button the target would wait for the pass to touch his feet, whereas by pressing the R2 button the target would run towards the pass in order to trap the ball (the speed at which the target moves towards the ball, would logically be determined by the pressure applied on the pressure sensitive R2 shoulder button).
When you consider all the individual elements of such a revolutionary passing system, the result is that the range of passing directions would be four times as diverse, and you apply the same system to all the areas of the game: directions of standing tackles within one direction of movement, directions of dribbling within one direction of movement, directions of shooting within one shooting angle, an independent button for determining the direction of movement, etc, etc, and you have a solid game on your hands.
@ Dave O
COMMENT
Again, you’ve managed to say nothing. Out with it boy! What IS your solution? If you don’t have one, everything you are saying is pointless.
RESPONSE
I think you’re not making any sense, again, you are making false accusations, I do have a system in mind, I do know what I’m talking about, and whilst I’m at it, I make it clear that “manual control” is not a specific thing, it can be done in multiple ways, but the one requirement for “manual control” is that certain essential factors are independent from one another, therefore giving you control over the game so that the computer doesn’t need to cheat the game in order to increase the difficulty of the game. Essentially, if the computer does not need to cheat the game in order to increase the difficulty, then you have real manual control.
Again, just in case you didn’t catch it the first time I said it, Mortal Kombat is a 2D with real manual control…. Why? Because even though player individuality is at the heart of everything, with every character having unique response times and unique animations, you -the gamer- are in complete control over the game, you control the timing and direction of each specific move, with the character response times forcing you into playing in favor of the character’s strengths.
With PES12 and FIFA12, by directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, the ball carrier runs forwards into the space, towards the given direction…. That completely destroys any possibility of having real manual control, because timing and direction are both triggered by the left analog stick, and if you cannot even direct the left analog stick without also triggering movement across the pitch, who determines when the ball carrier “dribbles” through a defender? The computer. And for the mentioned reason, the computer needs to cheat the game in order to increase the difficulty, because if the computer did not cheated, then Messi would dribble past the defender every single time.
Your complaint is about the so-called “360″ degree passing, which is not even actually “360″ degree, and which most certainly should not be described as “manual” because as we all know, neither FIFA12 nor PES12 offer anything manual, a fact that is very well documented. Therefore, when you describe “360″ degree movement with the catch phrase “manual control”, you are simply buying what the industry is feeding you…. At the end of the day, what people describe as “manual passing” is not actually manual…. Why? Because if you direct the left analog stick towards the west, the pass literally goes towards the west, and therefore, who determines when the pass slips through an entire defense? Not you, all you did was direct the left analog stick towards the east-south, and then the computer decided that the pass would slip through an entire defense, because the system certainly is not accurate enough to determine such minuscule details.
If you want to call it “manual passing” simply because every other hipster does the same, then fair enough, it still doesn’t change the fact that if you ever bother going to YouTube, you will find quite a lot of videos showcasing the so-called “manual passing” that PES12 offers. PESGaming really needs to put YouTube to good use, the catch phrase of “manual passing” is just false advertising, it’s like saying that you can fly when in reality you can only levitate, just a very old marketing stunt.
shume e bukur
@ Amateur – Unfortunately I followed about 1/4 of that… LOL. I guess I still really don’t understand the problem and the solution. I do however not take anything for granted when I talk about manual control. All I’m saying is what everyone else is saying when I use that term. There is, you must admit, a real difference between the passing in PES 2012 and what we had in 2010. That’s what I’m talking about. Anyway, from what you are saying I’m still not sure what you are talking about, but at least you tried to explain it.
@ Amateur
You mention to me that you feel like I seem to want to jump steps just to get what I want but its Konami that have made the jumps by creating these modes in the first place the problem lies in them now standing still with them and not substantially moving forward.
I believe Konami are never going to please all the fans with gameplay changes and definitely not with the slow limited gameplay changes that Konami always implement. I have to say too that I believe you completely underestimate the importance of the Master League to the game, to the fans and ultimately the future success of the franchise because with respect you have a bee in your bonnet about the gameplay and are blinded to anything else that may improve the series. Now as you know I get alot of what you say I feel too that Konami need to change things and evolve gameplay aswell but not at the price of a huge draw of the game ‘The Master League’ like it or not its what has kept loads of us fans still playing months after buying it personally when I play PES I spend the majority of my time in that mode and if they were to take it out or strip it back I think it would put me and a huge chunk of the core fanbase off the game completely.
As for not seeing the ‘bigger picture’ are you sure its ME thats not seeing it? With all due respect do you really believe logically and objectively that Konami are going to reduce other modes like ML or MLO to concentrate on gameplay let alone implement the certain changes your referring to? Also do you ever believe Konami even if they did would ever do it right to satisfy the majority of fans?
My opinion as bleak as it may sound is that Konami will never get gameplay right, will always be tweaking things in it, and changes will be slow because it will be trial and error on a budget now the way I see it is lets improve other parts of the game particularly the big followed modes and make them more stand out more evolved and elaborate features than what FIFA’s equivalent modes are offering at least that way the game is changing and improving in one substantial side.
As for Konami having a smaller team than EA Sports well the way I see it is as in real football if they want to compete with the big boys they have to spend the money on it and Konami need to be getting a bigger team on the same kind of level as those working on FIFA
@ Dave O
COMMENT
@ Amateur – Unfortunately I followed about 1/4 of that… LOL. I guess I still really don’t understand the problem and the solution. I do however not take anything for granted when I talk about manual control. All I’m saying is what everyone else is saying when I use that term. There is, you must admit, a real difference between the passing in PES 2012 and what we had in 2010. That’s what I’m talking about. Anyway, from what you are saying I’m still not sure what you are talking about, but at least you tried to explain it.
RESPONSE
I know what you mean, what I’m saying is as simple as this: if Konami can only levitate and they advertise their show by saying that they can fly, and every fan of the show describes levitation as “flying”, I’m merely a neutral person who looks at the facts, and I’m simply telling you, PES12 does not offer manual passing, it cannot be manual due to the “linear” design of the whole system.
As for the system that I have in mind, I will try to explain it one more time, because I admit that the last explanation certainly was not organized at all, hopefully you and other people who bother reading will understand where I’m coming from.
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Ok, why do you say that neither PES12 nor FIFA12 can actually offer “real manual” passing?
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The reason why neither PES nor FIFA can offer real manual control over any aspect of the game, be it passing or dribbling or shooting, is because of the limitations of the “linear” 2D system.
Example: (1st action) whilst looking towards the east *east meaning towards the opponent’s penalty area* direct the left analog stick towards the east-north, and then press and release the through pass button, and (1st reaction) the ball carrier sends a defense-splitting pass that leaves the striker against the goalkeeper.
Example: (1st action) whilst looking towards the east *east meaning the opponent’s penalty area* direct the left analog stick towards the west, without touching any other button besides the left analog stick, and (1st reaction) the ball carrier abruptly and immediately changes the direction of movement and therefore the direction of sight is also affected, the ball carrier would now be looking towards the west, and the west would mean that the ball carrier is looking towards his own defenders (in other words, with his back facing the opponent’s penalty area).
Those two examples explain, fully explain, why neither PES12 nor FIFA12 can offer real manual control passing…. because when you execute a defense-splitting pass, you only direct the left analog stick towards the south-east or north-east or just towards east, yet when the actual pass is set in motion, you see that the pass travels through a very specific path, and you know that you had nothing to do with that, because you know that simply directing the left analog stick towards a “linear” direction cannot possibly determine such minuscule detail over the trajectory of the pass, at the end of the day, you know that the computer simply decided that the pass would not be over-hit and that the pass would slip through the entire defense leaving your striker with an easy one-on-one against the goalkeeper.
This happens, again, because if you want to pass the ball to a player that is positioned somewhere to the east, as the ball carrier, if you direct the left analog stick towards the south-east, this would mean that the ball carrier will no longer be looking towards the east, and this directly affects the passing angle. For the mentioned reason, the position that the ball carrier occupies at the time that he releases the pass, is much more important than the actual direction of the pass. This is why the game feels scripted, this is why people complain about “scripted” gameplay, because your ability at passing the ball, means nothing if the computer does not want you to execute a defense-splitting pass: I mean, if the computer does not want you to execute a defense splitting pass, the computer will simply dictate that the defenders will be positioned here and here, in a way that makes impossible for the ball carrier to complete the pass.
Real manual control, should give you the possibility of always completing the pass, irrespective of however the computer positions the defenders, and irrespective of however the computer positions the ball carrier; with PES12 and FIFA12, that is not possible, because directing the left analog towards the west means that the ball carrier will immediately look towards the west, and directing the left analog stick towards the east means that the ball carrier will immediately look towards the east, which makes it impossible for you to have any real level of control over a pass that you directed towards the north-east.
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What do you propose?
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What I propose is simple: imagine a passing system where you can locate and select the recipient of the pass, before you execute the actual pass…. imagine a passing system where if you are running towards the west *the west meaning backwards* you can direct the left analog stick towards the east, and the left analog stick would have absolutely no effect on the direction of running: this means, that you could be running towards the west, and at the same time, direct a pass towards the north-east, without the left analog stick direction having any effect on the angle of the pass.
For example,
(scenario) let’s say that the recipient of the pass is located towards the east *the east meaning the opponent’s penalty area*, and let’s that the ball carrier is positioned around the center circle, and that the ball carrier is running towards the east and also looking towards the east.
(1st action) press and hold the L1 shoulder button, and then direct the left analog stick towards the south-west, and then press and release the through pass button.
(1st reaction) because the recipient of the pass is located in a very specific position, somewhere towards the east direction if you direct the left analog stick towards the east, this means that directing a pass towards the south-west would not mean that the pass would literally be directed towards the south-west, instead directing a pass towards the south-west when the recipient of the pass is located towards the east, means that the pass will have a curl effect, the pass will have the effect of an inside-foot curler, and the pass will be directed towards the selected target.
(further clarification) if in the same exact scenario the pass had been directed towards the north-west instead of the south-west, then the pass would’ve been an outside-foot curler instead of an inside-foot curler.
The bottom line is very simple, you need to select the recipient of the pass before actually executing the pass, this means that you can concentrate all the range of directions (north, north-west, north-east, south, south-west, south-east, west, east, plus the added grey areas) that the left analog stick has to offer, on one very specific target.
By concentrating all the range of movement of the left analog stick on just one very specific moving target, it will be impossible for the computer to cheat the game, because even if the computer positions the opposing defenders, even if the computer positions your own forwards, the passing system will always offer a solution to whatever the computer does: essentially, the computer can make it difficult, but it is impossible for the computer to cheat the game. That’s real manual control is: off the ball movement is “scripted”, the game is “scripted” to a great extent, but the “script” cannot decide that the pass will be over-hit, the “script” cannot determine the direction and weight of the pass, that’s what real manual control is, a video game where the computer does not need to cheat the game in order to increase the difficulty of the game, a video game where the computer cannot actually cheat the game.
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Could you elaborate on how such a passing system would work?
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Of course. The passing system would revolve around the essential mechanic of locating and selecting the recipient of the pass, before the actual pass is set in motion. Here’s an example to further explain how the mentioned essential mechanic would work on the pitch….
(scenario) the ball carrier is running towards the east and therefore looking towards the east *the east meaning the opponent’s penalty area*, and there are many potential players to pass the ball to, of course, with the computer dictating the script and therefore having an effect on the target that you can select.
(1st action) whilst moving towards the east *the east means towards the opponent’s penalty area, which means that the north is the flank area to your left* direct the left analog stick slightly towards the north-east, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button,
(1st reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you press and release the L1 shoulder button, however, the first time that you press and release the L1 shoulder button after each pass is set in motion, you locate and select the recipient of the next pass….. In this case, because the left analog stick was *slightly* directed towards the north-east, the selected target will be the closest player whom falls within the north-east direction.
(2nd action) after locating and selecting the recipient for the next pass, then press and hold the the L1 shoulder button, and then direct the left analog stick dramatically towards the south-west *whilst still holding the L1 shoulder button*, and then press and release the through ball button,
(2nd reaction) the ball carrier sends a through ground pass, but because the selected target is positioned in a very specific spot somewhere on the north-east *east meaning the opponent’s penalty area* if you direct the left analog stick towards the north-east, this means that directing the left analog stick towards the south-west *west being towards your own penalty area* at the time the pass is set in motion, would not mean that the pass would literally be directed towards the south-west; instead, imagine a twenty foot circle around the selected recipient for the pass, if the pass is directed *dramatically* towards the south, this means that at some point the distance between the right-hand shoulder of the recipient of the pass and the ball would be a space of approximately twenty feet of distance; and because the left analog stick was *dramatically* directed towards the south, this determines that by the time the pass runs out of gas, the distance between the feet of the recipient and the ball, will be a space of considerable proportions.
(further clarification) it is important to point out, that after locating and selecting the recipient of the pass, you will still need to press and hold the L1 button in order to pass the ball. The procedure is simple: the first time you press and release the L1 shoulder button *after the last pass was set in motion* you locate and select the recipient of the pass, but in order to pass the ball, you need to press and hold the L1 shoulder button + press and release the passing button + determine the direction via the left analog stick.
(further clarification) you might think that the procedure is too long and slow for first-touch return passes, however, first-touch return passes would be executed by simply not releasing the L1 shoulder button after the pass is set in motion: by doing so, the recipient for the nest pass will be the player who last passed the ball, thus making it easy and intuitive to play quick one-two passes. Though having said that, it is important to note, that if you release the L1 button after the last pass was set in motion, then you will need to once again locate and select the recipient for the next pass.
So the system is considerably intuitive, if the selected recipient for the pass is positioned somewhere within the general north-east area *east being the opponent’s penalty area*, and you direct the pass *slightly* towards the south-west *west being your own penalty area*, this means that the pass, even though not directed to the feet of the player, by the time the pass runs out of gas, the ball should be fairly close to the feet. On the other hand, if in the same exact scenario you *dramatically* direct the left analog stick towards the same direction, then by the time the pass runs out of gas, the distance between the feet and the ball should be considerable. Each direction of passing would have four levels of distance, directing the left analog stick towards the south as slightly as possible, directing the left analog stick as far towards the south as it can go, and another two layers of depth in between the mentioned two.
Therefore, when executing a through ball ground pass, it is important to consider that how far you direct the left analog stick within the “linear” range of movement of each direction, will determine the distance that the pass will cover with respect to the selected recipient.Therefore, due to the same reason, it is important to consider that if the selected recipient for the pass could be positioned very far away, and that if you *slightly* direct the left analog stick, this means that the ball will still reach the selected recipient, but that by the time the pass runs out of gas, the distance between the feet and the ball will be minimal; on the other hand, if you *dramatically* direct the left analog stick, this means that by the time the pass runs out of gas, the distance between the feet and the ball will be considerable.
By the same principle, it is also important to remember that the same mechanic will be a factor to consider when selecting the recipient for the pass: directing the left analog stick *slightly* towards the north-east would locate Target-A, whereas directing the left analog stick *dramatically* towards the north-east would locate Target-B, therefore it is important to be aware of the fact that the direction of the left analog stick + how far you direct the left analog stick within the “linear” range of movement within the given direction + press and release the L1 button for the first time since the last pass was set in motion, will locate the recipient of the next pass; and just as important, is to be aware of the fact that you can easily reset the whole procedure, by simply pressing and releasing the short pass button without the assistance of the left analog stick (read: releasing the left analog stick before pressing and releasing the short pass button), and the result will be that you will not have a recipient to pass the ball to, which means that you would need to once again repeat the whole procedure, in order to locate and select a new recipient for the next pass.
Here’s an example to show how easy it would to reset and restart the whole procedure of selecting the recipient of the pass,
(scenario) the ball carrier is running towards the east and therefore looking towards the east *the east meaning the opponent’s penalty area*, and there are many potential players to pass the ball to, of course, with the computer dictating the script and therefore having an effect on the target that you can select.
(1st action) whilst moving towards the east *the east means towards the opponent’s penalty area, which means that the north is the flank area to your left* direct the left analog stick slightly towards the north-east, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button,
(1st reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you press and release the L1 shoulder button, however, the first time that you press and release the L1 shoulder button after each pass is set in motion, you locate and select the recipient of the next pass….. In this case, because the left analog stick was *slightly* directed towards the north-east, the selected target will be the closest player whom falls within the north-east direction.
(2nd action) after locating and selecting the recipient for the next pass, then release the left analog stick, and after releasing the left analog stick, then quickly press and release the short pass button,
(2nd reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you carry out the mentioned procedure, however, when you release the left analog stick and then quickly press and release the short pass button, you reset the whole procedure of selecting the recipient for the pass, which means that you have no recipient for the pass, which means that you must once again locate and select the recipient of the pass, before execution the actual pass. Furthermore, it would be impossible to execute a pass without having already selected and located the recipient of the pass.
(3rd action) whilst still moving towards the east *the east means towards the opponent’s penalty area, which means that the south is the flank area to your right* direct the left analog stick dramatically towards the south-east, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button,
(3rd reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you press and release the L1 shoulder button, however, the first time that you press and release the L1 shoulder button after each reset, you locate and select the recipient of the next pass….. In this case, because the left analog stick was *dramatically* directed towards the north-east, the selected target will be the player whom is farther away within the south-east direction.
And one last example, to further clarify how the manual passing system would work on the pitch,
(scenario) the ball carrier is located right in the middle of the center circle and is running towards the west and therefore looking towards the west *the west meaning the ball carrier’s own penalty area*, and there are many potential players to pass the ball to, though of course, with the computer dictating the script and therefore having an effect on the target that you can select.
(1st action) whilst moving towards the west *the west means towards your own penalty area, which means that the south-east would be to your right if you were looking towards the opponent’s penalty area* direct the left analog stick dramatically towards the south-east, and then press and release the L1 shoulder button,
(1st reaction) in terms of execution nothing actually visible happens when you press and release the L1 shoulder button, however, the first time that you press and release the L1 shoulder button after each pass is set in motion, you locate and select the recipient of the next pass….. In this case, because the left analog stick was *dramatically* directed towards the south-east, the selected target will be a player whom is very far away somewhere in the south-east area. It is also important to note that since the ball carrier is running towards the west *west being his own penalty area*, that the selected recipient for the next pass is located deep in the opponent’s half of the pitch
(2nd action) after locating and selecting the recipient for the next pass, then press and hold the the L1 shoulder button, and then direct the left analog stick dramatically towards the south *whilst still holding the L1 shoulder button*, and then press and release the through ball button *whilst still holding the L1 shoulder button*,
(2nd reaction) the ball carrier is still running towards the west *in other words, the ball carrier is running towards his own penalty area* and abruptly stops running towards the west, turns around *now looking towards the south or towards the east* and passes the ball, in one quick motion; and because the selected target is positioned in a very specific spot somewhere on the south-east *east meaning the opponent’s penalty area, and south being the right flank of the pitch if you are looking towards the opponent’s penalty area* if you direct the left analog stick towards the south at the time the pass is set in motion, the pass would not literally be directed towards the south, instead, imagine a twenty foot circle around the selected recipient for the pass, if the pass is directed towards the south, this means that at some point the distance between the right-hand shoulder of the recipient of the pass and the ball would be a space of approximately twenty feet of distance; and because the left analog stick was *dramatically* directed towards the south, this determines that by the time the pass runs out of gas, the distance between the feet of the recipient and the ball, will be a space of considerable proportions.
(further clarification) as can be appreciated, if the ball carrier is positioned inside the center circle and is also running towards his own penalty area, yet the selected recipient for the pass is positioned deep in the opponent’s half of the pitch, you can pass the ball to the selected recipient, and the ball carrier will automatically turn around in order to pass the ball. It is important to note that, since the ball carrier needs to turn around before executing the pass, that the response-time of the pass will be a little slower than if you passed the ball towards the same direction that you are already moving towards.
(further clarification) it is also important to note, that by directing the left analog stick + pressing and releasing the through ground pass button *without the assistance of the L1 shoulder button* the ball carrier will turn around and change the direction of movement and also the direction of sight: by doing it manually, you have more control over the actual body movements of he ball carrier. Though of course, doing it manually is much more difficult and also slower, and not advisable if you want to change the direction of movement and then pass the ball in one seamless motion.
(further clarification) it is also important to note, that it would be impossible to change the direction of movement without the assistance of the through ground pass button; the only possible way of changing the direction of movement without the assistance of the through ground pass button, is if the ball carrier is running towards his own penalty area yet passes the ball towards the opponent’s penalty area.
(further clarification) furthermore, backwards-heel passes will be performed by directing the left analog stick, pressing and holding the L1 shoulder button, and then quickly pressing and releasing the R1 shoulder button *whilst still holding the L1 shoulder button*.
At the end of the day, the manual passing system, although incredibly deep, would be simple and intuitive to use, locating and selecting the recipient of the next pass would be a very easy task, first-touch return passes would also be very easy, etc, etc. The intention is to offer complex gameplay with plenty of replay value, but with simple and intuitive execution.
@ Dave O pes 2012 its the worst pes ever made! shoots, defensive line, pass, AI, refere, goalkeepers, CPU control its a huge aberration. the game its a big ****! the online mode its full of cheaters like user ex: kery666, korkybenek and much others! if i have 2-1 in 87 minute they are disconnect and i don’t win with 3-0!!!!!! why????????? i have 530 points and they 600+!!!! in game if i play much better like adversary 100 games ex: match stats i 18(12) and adversar 5(2) and i loose with 1-2. i was 1 one 1 whit goalkeeper at 5 time and 3 time with free goalpost and score 1 goal??????!!!!!! in 70% from matches when i play much better I LOOSE!!!! WHY?????? BECAUSE WIN HO WANT THIS ****ING CRAZY GAME, NOT HO PLAY BETTER!!!sorry for my english
@Rony – At least you know you’re not alone! Most people are saying that they feel the way you do, although I don’t agree about the shooting or that it’s the “worst PES ever.” Online it just seems like you meet the worst people sometimes. I’ve come to believe that a lot of the people I play who are absolutely idiotic are probably young kids, or else they simply weren’t raised properly and still behave like children. Anyway, to me it will be a good metric of the success of PES 2013 if we can really say that good play (posession, variety, creativity) is rewarded and exploitation is somehow curbed.
Pro Evo is finished, prove with Pes 12, they don’t no what they r doing any more, worst game in the history of Pes, also why can’t Komani not get players names, I know Fifa as them, but Football Manager as every name, also as the introducing of players cards ruin how u want ur players 2 move.
Amateur – I THINK I understand what you are saying now, however there are a few points I disagree on. I applogize if these differences of opinion are based on a misunderstanding of what you’re saying, and I hope you don’t take what I’m saying as anything more than my opinion, but I am someone who always has to tell it like I see it (I don’t argue just for arguments sake).
1. I disagree that manual passing (true manual passing) is impossible within the current “linear system.” Didn’t we used to have full manual passing like you’re describing (sans the proposed button to fix the direction of the player) in a previous version or two of PES on the PS2? I can’t remember which version it was, but I remember that we used to be able to use the right analog stick for a full manual pass (press the stick in and direct it). Also, this is very similar to what you are proposing because using the right stick for passing obviously has no effect on the direction the player is moving.
2. I have read somewhere (which I believe was an official source) that the reason they got rid of the full manual passing was because it bypassed the statistics and led to exploitation. I believe this may have come right from John Murphy in an FAQ, but either way, the point is that they got rid of it because they didn’t want it. It was there, and they chose not to include it for reasons that are really very understandable in my opinion.
3. If you look at the manual passing we have in PES 2012 I think it’s possible that it would work well (if you wanted full manual like we used to have on the right analog stick) even without your proposed additional button used to fix the direction of player movement. I say this based on playing experience, which I really find is different from the way you describe things. Try it yourself. The fact is that if you want to do a backheel pass you can do so easily without turning your player around to face the other direction. Same goes for side or angled back passes (i.e. cut backs). When pulling these moves off even with the current system your player’s body can easily be facing one direction while the pass goes in another direction. This is enabled simply with a little timing and skill on the part of the user and is possible essentially because the gamer has faster response times than the game (which is not a fault of the game in my opinion but actually based on the kind of lack of COMPLETE control of the ball that you have in real football).
4. I want to hear more about how this system would allow for more player individuality… To me it’s the opposite. If Xavi and an average player’s manual passes are the same, and manual passing is the primary mode of passing (assuming it is) then why pay more for Xavi?
5. How does this system, which as far as I understand is the same as an old system which was removed because it was causing too much exploitation, help reduce exploitation?
In general however, I’m okay with what you are proposing, I just think a.) it isn’t anything we haven’t had in the past, b.) I think it opens a couple of new big cans of worms (potentally huge negative impacts on player individuality and exploitation), and c.) I think it can be done without the button you are proposing to fix the player’s direction of movement. I don’t think the idea of this button to fix the direction of movement is a bad idea mind you, I just think it is sort of beside the point (a separate solution to a different problem but perhaps a good way of implementing it if they decide it is needed AND they don’t want to use the right analog stick). I also want to point out that as far as I can see we WILL be seeing full manual passing and shooting in PES 2013, and although I think it will have some downsides to it, I’m fully willing to accept it. I’m just trying to point out the fact that there are some good reasons why they haven’t featured in the game until now (beside the right analog passing which made a brief appearance). Also I don’t think that PES being a “stats based game” is a bad thing because it adds a lot to modes like ML, where the price of players is based on their stats. I think you lose a lot if you give that up, but maybe you can explain how all these concerns are to be alleviated… I would certainly welcome it if we could have manual but without any of the negative problems that I see associated with it.
@ Dave O
COMMENT
1. I disagree that manual passing (true manual passing) is impossible within the current “linear system.” Didn’t we used to have full manual passing like you’re describing (sans the proposed button to fix the direction of the player) in a previous version or two of PES on the PS2?
RESPONSE
I will read and respond to your full comments later on, perhaps today or tomorrow, cannot tell for sure right now. But I wanted to comment on that specific point: yes, PES on the PS2 was “almost” manual, but the fact remains that it was not actually full manual: more importantly, the PES system does not work when you add more directions to it, the system is not “smart” enough to handle the capacity of the left analog stick, that’s why PES and FIFA cannot offer manual control, in fact, PES13 and FIFA13 will most probably be less manual than PES6 on the PS2.
It’s how the system works, from a first glance, you would think that simply adding more directions and variables to the same old and tested formula would offer more freedom, but in reality, the game becomes more restrictive and therefore even less “manual” than it was before. Konami needs to make proper use of the left analog stick, if they want to offer what PES6 should be if you added more freedom to it; but again, it cannot be done by simply using the same old system on the left analog stick…..
Konami can offer something very close to real manual control, without the necessity of changing the animations and the graphics, but the controls of the game, the mechanics of the game, do need to be completely changed from the ground up. But, again, the “linear” system makes it impossible, because the number of variables or in other words the level of control, that the game offers per direction and therefore per the “linear” range of movement within each direction, means that the computer needs to cheat the game on a consistent basis, in fact, cheating AI is at the heart of everything because of the flaw of the “linear” system.
The only real solution to the problem, is to offer the entire “circular” range of movement that the left analog stick has to offer, within the “linear” range of movement within each direction. But if you think that you can use the same old and tested eight directional “linear” system, and simply add more directions to it via the left analog stick, and think that you get more “freedom” as a result, then you are clearly missing something of essential importance.
Anyways, I will look at the rest of your response later on….
Amateur – Hopefully you’re not talking about going back to the N64 ISS series of full control where the movement of players is more like skating was portrayed on oldschool ice hockey games like NHL 95! If so, I’m totally against it. Football is a game where the player must control the ball, and in fact even the best players never have total control, therefore when you move, you are, in fact, restricted — restricted in the sense that you can’t move anywhere at any time. You have to move only when the ball is touched, otherwise you would be running around without the ball. Or am I misunderstanding yet again?
This really needs to be addressed. Thanks DougieDonut for bringing this up. The Poll is a great idea!!
One of the many reasons why the game does not educate people on how to play Pes or have a football mind..its too easy, passing it to messi and ronaldo and running through everyone.When it comes to the smaller teams thats where the real channe othe game is about..ii bet the people on here who only play with the big boys or people online will struggle with smaller teams.
Im on 678 points alone playing barca v real every game for past 3 nights ..its boring.!!
@Amateur
FFS ..Cut the crap mate, your articles are full of rubbish, your wasting your time i bet no one reads em , i know i dont because as they go on and on – your articles makes the Just try keep em short and sweet ..,
never mind all that, i want a net editor in pes 2013.
I HATE THE BARCA BOYS!!
a new online system has to be implemented and introduce smaller teams
Believe it or not, THis is the only reason why i have STOPPED playing this game..very dissapointed – all my mates are on fifa so playing barca everytime gets me so p***ed off.. I dont like fifa wont play Pes until this is sorted!!
SeaBass please Sort it OUT!
@ Dave O
COMMENT
Amateur – Hopefully you’re not talking about going back to the N64 ISS series of full control where the movement of players is more like skating was portrayed on oldschool ice hockey games like NHL 95! If so, I’m totally against it. Football is a game where the player must control the ball, and in fact even the best players never have total control, therefore when you move, you are, in fact, restricted — restricted in the sense that you can’t move anywhere at any time. You have to move only when the ball is touched, otherwise you would be running around without the ball. Or am I misunderstanding yet again?
RESPONSE
Yes you are misunderstanding yet again…. but thankfully you seem to be genuinely interested in discussing the subject at hand, which I certainly appreciate.
You mentioned the N64 ISS series, but the N64 ISS series is not even remotely close to what I propose: with the ISS series, if you direct the left analog stick towards the west *without the assistance of any other button* the player changes the direction of movement and therefore the direction of sight: bottom line, ISS used the same old and tested 2D formula that PES also uses, the only real difference, is that PES is based more around stats and as a result less manual, whereas ISS was more manual but lacking player individuality.
What I propose is entirely different. I reaffirm, that the problem with the PES formula, is that Konami has been using 2D mechanics on a 3D plane for more than a decade now. When the game used to be eight directional, the interference of the computer was minimal, and therefore, even though the game was largely automatic and based around statistics, the gamer felt that he had enough control over the game.
There were only eight directions of movement, and passing did not worked around a power bar system, therefore the player individuality was fairly easy to emulate and to control, and as a result, the computer could balance the game without becoming an annoyance, and as a direct consequence, an average team could easily beat a big team. An average team could easily beat a big team, because since the pitch was so big, and since you only had eight directions of passing and movement, intelligent off the ball movement when defending could make all the difference in the world, and was more times than not the essential factor that used to separate the casual fans from the hardcore fans; with intelligent off the ball movement when defending, you could easily close out passing angles and also intercept passes, something that, again, more times than not proved to be the key difference between a casual fan and a hardcore fan.
When the game was eight directional, the pitch was so big, and the eight directional movement was so restrictive, that the computer had enough time to think about all the possible variables, and as a result, the computer reacted after the user initiated the action, which is why off the ball movement when defending was such an important skill back in the PS2 days…. Because when you did not initiated the action, the computer left you wide open, and a goal scoring chance was usually the outcome of your mistake: although simplistic in the technical respect, it was a thinking game that rewarded tactical and patient play.
When you add “360″ degree passing to the same old and tested system, the system itself is so simplistic, and the variables that the left analog stick are so vast, that the computer needs to react as fast as possible, the computer needs to think and react faster, and as a result, before you as the gamer decide to initiate the action, the computer already initiated the action for you, and in doing so, conditioned everything you do afterwards, which is why off the ball movement when defending is no longer an important skill, because the flaws are so massive and so easy to exploit, that your ability means nothing. Therefore, strangely enough, the ability of the gamer was a more important factor when the game was eight directional than when “360″ degree passing was implemented into the same old and tested system.
When you add “360″ degree directions to the same old and tested system, you have many fundamental problems that are impossible to fix….
1st — To start with, since directing the left analog stick *without the assistance of any other button* affects both the direction of movement and the direction of sight, if you maintain or try to maintain the same identical response times of PES6 or PES5, you get ice skaters on a football pitch (like ISS on the N64), because “360″ degree movement with instant response times added to the fact that you cannot direct the left analog stick without also determining the direction of movement and therefore the direction of sight, means that “skating” through the pitch is an inevitability.
1st — In order to fix the problem of “skaters” instead of runners, you need to significantly reduce the response times of the ball carrier (like Konami did with PES11), in order to create the illusion of weight and therefore distance yourself from the “floaty” feeling of ice skaters; however, this comes hand in hand with serious repercussions, because as a result of intentionally reduced response times, the off the ball movement (when defending) is too slow to effectively contain the “360″ degree passing system, and as a result, instead of letting the ability of the gamer decide whom is the smartest and more experienced player (like it used to be back in PES5 and PES6), the computer needs to interfere with the ability of the gamer, because if the computer did not interfered with the ability of the gamer, then the game would be a goal scoring fest, because the off the ball movement is too slow for the speed of the “360″ degree passing system, and therefore the computer needs to come in and decide that your pass was over-hit even though you weighted your pass perfectly: in other words, the computer interference increases significantly, as a result of adding “360″ degree directions to the same old and tested formula.
1st — With PES11, we saw how Konami increased the speed of the off the ball movement, so much, that once you dribbled past a defender, the defender still had time to catch up with you and pressure you once again, this was know as the “catch-up” bug; though most people who complain about it, do not like to admit that without it, the game would be a goal scoring fest.
1st — With PES12, we say how Konami tried to fix or minimize the “catch-up” bug, by increasing the speed of the whole game, now there is little or no difference between the speed of the ball carrier and the speed of off the ball movement, therefore minimizing the “catch-up” bug, yet at the same time increasing the computer interference so that passing is less manual and therefore more scripted.
1st — There is no solution to the problem; if you slow the speed of the ball carrier and then increase the speed of the off the ball movement you get a “catch-up” bug; if you make the speed of the ball carrier and the speed of the off the ball movement equal, you get an arcade game, you get a goal scoring fest, and you get highly assisted passing even when playing with zero assist; if you slow the speed of the ball carrier and then increase the speed of the off the ball movement, and then specifically fix the “catch-up” bug, you get an arcade goal scoring fest, etc, etc.
1st — There is no solution to the problem: as result of adding “360″ degrees of direction, into a system that was originally designed to work around the eight directional D-Pad button…. computer interference increases to the point where almost everything you do is already conditioned by the computer script. Back in the PS2 days the script worked by reacting to your initial response, which was possible because the limitations of the eight directional D-Pad allowed enough time for the computer to allow you control over the tactical aspect of the game. Once you add “360″ degree passing into a system that was originally designed to work around the eight directional D-Pad button, the computer can no longer react after your initial response, because if the computer reacted in accordance to your initial response, then the game would be unplayable; instead, the only viable solution is that the computer initiates the action, and then the user reacts after the computer initiates the action, the exact opposite of what PES5 was, your opponent can execute the same exact play all game long, and as a defender you cannot do anything but follow the initial response that the computer dictates, therefore ability is not the factor that it used to be back when the game was eight directional, which is why a casual fan can destroy a hardcore fan by simply playing with Barcelona.
1st — There is no solution to the problem, when you have “360″ degrees of direction, and you can change the direction of movement as well as the direction of sight, by simply directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button…. you have a broken game with fundamental problems that are impossible to fix by simply “perfecting” the method, because you do not actually have a method to perfect, what you do have, is an experimental mess that can work as a stage in the slow process of evolution but cannot work as a system to be perfected because the fundamental flaws cannot be tweaked nor fixed (unlike the old eight directional game).
2nd — As a direct consequence of increased computer interference, player individuality takes a negative hit: passing, shooting, and dribbling, although technically more advanced, are less manual than when the game was eight directional, because the off the movement cannot contain the “360″ degree passing, and therefore the computer is forced into interfering with your skill on a more consistent basis than when the game used to be eight directional; the off the ball movement of your own forwards is also more assisted than it was when the game was eight directional (further reducing the player individuality), all in the effort of containing a “360″ degree passing system that the off the ball movement cannot contain without the computer cheating the game much more consistently.
The bottom line of this rather long and boring tale, is that PES on the PS2 had a proper foundation, a proper method, which could be perfected year after year; on the other hand, PES on the PS3 simply failed, it started without a direction with the impressively bad PES08, and ever since it’s been perfecting a hybrid of D-Pad mechanics implemented into the analog stick, which is a system that does not work and cannot be perfected. The animations of PES12 can be perfected to the level of FIFA12, but the system itself, cannot be perfected, a fact that is exposed more and more with each passing year.
It is important to acknowledge the fact that this was not a problem with the PS2 versions of PES, the PS2 versions of PES had a system that could be perfected as long as the system remained within the limitations of the D-Pad. On the other hand, PES12 and FIFA12 work around a system that cannot be perfected, the animations can be perfected, the graphics, but the system itself was and will always be flawed to the very core, cannot be perfected for as long as the potential of the left analog stick is restrained by an outdated D-Pad system.
What I propose is entirely different to what ISS was on the N64, and cannot be compared to anything, because nobody has done it yet. My proposition is not to speed up the off the ball movement in order to contain a new “360″ degree passing system, thus creating an arcade game due to the speed of the game, nor my intention is to slow down the response times of the ball carrier to the point that Lio Messi in real life is actually more agile than his video game representation; my proposition is to slow down passing and dribbling, and as a result, create the time and space that the computer needs in order to go back to what PES was in the PS2 era.
My proposition: if you direct the left analog stick towards the north *without the assistance of the L1 button*, the ball carrier does not changes the direction of movement nor the direction of sight; instead, if you direct the left analog stick towards the north *without the assistance of the L1 button* and then press and release the short pass button *without the assistance of the L1 button*, the ball carrier will dribble within the given direction of movement, meaning that if the direction of movement is towards the east, and at the same time you direct the left analog stick towards the north *without the assistance of the L1 button* and then press and release the short pass button *without the assistance of the L1 button* — the player will not change the direction of movement from east to north, instead, the ball carrier will continue running towards the east, but will touch the ball towards many different directions, therefore the direction of dribbling and the direction of running would be separated, you could touch the ball towards any of the “360″ degrees of direction that the left analog stick has to offer and at the same time be running towards just one direction, therefore the ball would feel like an independent entity as opposed to something that just happens to be glued to your feet.
That slows the game down, because dribbling past a defender would not be as simple as simply running straight at the defender and then “zigzagging” with the left analog stick, instead, you would actually need to dribble past the defender by actually calculating the direction of the dribble (which should be inconsequential to the direction of movement), which ends up slowing the game due to all the factors that would need to be considered by both the attacker and the defender; as a result, PES can go back to reacting after the user’s initial response, as opposed to dictating the initial action so that the user can follow the easily perceivable strings.
My personal preference is to have a game where player individuality is at the heart of everything, yet at the same time offers enough manual control over the game. Essentially, the intention is to emulate what PES6 did, but by reinventing the system so that it makes proper use of the left analog stick, therefore reducing the computer interference, due to the new level of manual control that you would have over the game. With PES5 and PES6 this was not a problem, because the level of manual control was as advanced as it could possibly be; on the other hand, when you add “360″ degrees of direction to the same old system, you essentially break the game….
@ Mango
COMMENT
FFS ..Cut the crap mate, your articles are full of rubbish, your wasting your time i bet no one reads em , i know i dont because as they go on and on – your articles makes the Just try keep em short and sweet
RESPONSE
My articles are not full of rubbish, unlike you, I write to spend my time, I do not write to waste my time: think about it, and the next time you see one of my boring posts, just skip over, but please, don’t tell me how I should write :)
PES 13 GONNA A FLOP! just go watch the vid with ronaldo runnin with the ball touches it with outside of the right foot over and over again with every step like hes strachin for the ball with every touch = fifa runnin do u know wat that means players wont run with the ball to get past players ur gonna have to do tricks = fifa gonna have to do skills to beat players if so its just another fifa for kids wantin to act a maggot with the ball seems like konamis headline this year should have been IF U CANT BEAT THEM ( FIFA ) JOIN THEM!
Gary – Isn’t that the way Ronaldo dribbles in real life? I took it as an indication that different players have signature dribbling styles, which I believe is supposed to be one of the key innovations for this year (even goalkeepers have different styles as I understand it).
do u really think there gonna make every player in the game dribble different i cant see it maybe 1 or 2 of the big players like the top 32 in the game if so its gonna mean even worse things on MLO every 1s just gonna want them players wile the rest of the players run normal, yes ronaldo does run like that but doesnt mean every 1 else has to im just hopein its just him that runs like that and not every 1 cus it looks like there b no runnin in the game just fifa skills to beat players. dont get me wrong i hated the ppl runnin in pes 12 done my head in wish the game would go back to pes 11 only with a few things added on like the wing backs goin forward more and less scripting. oh and hope konami dont cheat with the ronaldos and messis wen u wanna tackle them that wen u hit them or tackle them ronaldos foot or leg dont go through the tacklers leg meanin ronaldo stays on his feet
Nice article Dougie, but the gig is up for PES/Konami. For so long we’ve voiced our opinion and for so long been ignored. PES has gone from being a football simulation to a FIFA simulation. If we wanted to play FIFA, we’d just play FIFA, why bother with PES? The thing that used to set PES apart was it’s “arcade-like” gameplay, the thrill of scoring a goal was awesome! Running around players and dribbling solo for 90m and scoring against your mate, both of whom are drunkas hell, was half the fun of the game! I’ve given up on PES, and won’t be spending a dollar more on it. I actually traded it in for PES 2009 (the oldest one I could find) and I just play that now. What a shame, it could have been so much more!
@ Gary
COMMENT
do u really think there gonna make every player in the game dribble different…..
RESPONSE
Do I expect every player in the game to dribble differently?
Not at all, I expect to have different type of dribblers, in order to better emulate players whom are famous for “shielding” the ball (like Xavi Hernandez) and players whom are famous for “running at” defenders (like Arjen Robben). That way, even the average players could be slightly different when compared to other average players, because dribbling animations can be differentiated by the type of dribbling.
More importantly, I expect that every star player should dribble differently and should have its own unique feel, which is well within “realistic” considering the fact that star players are only a minority; however, I do not expect that all the players should be different and unique.
Do I expect every player in the game to dribble differently? No, but just out of curiosity, why do you think that I actually expect 500+ players to dribble differently and have their own unique feel?
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