Given the few comments which have lead to good discussion points, I will try to add my two bits worth to them from the last two articles posted on the main site.
Lucifer666 – prioritisations must take place. Games development will inevitably have a list of features to focus on for any given release. You will have a list of “broken features” let’s say which must be addressed, as well as new ideas to add. As a result resources are spread across these areas. Some aspects may be easy to fix, others may require more effort, or take much longer than expected – or even break existing features. All this will be tracked and as a result there will always be priorities which rise and fall. It’s the nature of the beast I’m afraid. They key thing for us is to outline what we believe are the most important things that MUST be addressed if they are to retain our custom.
For example, I stopped playing MLO around November last year. For me it’s fundamentally flawed in many ways, and as such I can’t be bothered to put up with it. So I only play the game offline. Even then, I’ve not touched it in over a month now. And quite frankly I don’t miss it. It’s not clawing away at my conscience to go play it any more, like it used to. I don’t think I’ve fallen out of love with the game, it’s just that there’s not too much about the game I can get excited about. I used to love playing the game online – the MLO mode – in theory is superb and very addictive. But the many flaws in the mode mean I can’t be bothered to put up with it.
MagicAroma – yes this is me after taking a few months out. Apply now for a subscription fee refund for not delivering what you paid for pal.
We write on this site of our own free will. I ran out of things to say, and quite frankly needed to re-energise myself.
i HATE Barca BOys – i’m with you all the way. How dull is it to have to face the same few teams over and over again? As we’re all aware there are times when we make it clear that we want to play with anyone but the top teams, and pick a lesser team. Whilst the timer is nearing to zero for team selections you find your opponent all of sudden switch from another lesser team to Barcelona. Meaning you’re in for a hammering. The solution to this commonplace issue is simple – whilst you’re in the menu mode having just been duped, you simply select an option to quit before the match has kicked off. Simple as that.
Micky P – yes Konami can do something about having to play against Barca boys every single time! There have been suggestions made about modes excluding certain teams to be included. The current system of joining communities is hit and miss for me. I don’t want to have to join specific communities (if there are spaces available), and have to wait in gaming rooms for other community members to join you for a game. It’s very cumbersome and life’s too short quite frankly. PES6 online allowed you to filter games to choose players based on rank for starters – something we no longer have. So you could choose to avoid players from the top tier, especially if you were in Division 4 or 5 of the game. In the current game, there is no way of choosing who you play against in terms of Divisions, or to politely decline a game against a Division 1 barca boy. Please note – I know you get various teams in Division 1, but they all invariably have the same collection of super players -akin to Barcelona. It’s just plain dull coming up against them over and over.
If I’m in Division 5, I should be pitted against players in my division only by default. I choose have to choose to try my luck against players of a higher division – and even then – specifying the Division I want to challenge myself with. This would mean I would have many varied games against varied teams and players. This solution is so simple, it’s criminal that it’s been overlooked for so long.
Should PES2013 not fix cheating, and not offer options to pick and choose who we face more intelligently, then I will once again not play it online.
Division 1 players should get pittance in terms of points for playing against the other Divisions on a sliding scale. They should have more to lose than to gain. For people who only prefer playing against their fellow Barca boys – then let’s have a separate Barca boy Division that they can opt into. They will then get what they want – and for the majority of players out there – we’ll get more proper games where we actually enjoy playing online.
BrZyTwAa (NYC) – what is the fifa system for combatting people choosing the biggest teams all the time? I’m very interested to hear what they’ve done to make the online experience more enjoyable. Perhaps there are lessons there for Konami to pick up on – so please do share.
Thanks for reading.
Dougiedonut
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DD – I agree on all points. Your point about needing to find a way to offer more even matches though is in for PES 2013 as far as I know (for MLO anyway). Note that the last “game modes” video was part one, so I think we’ll know more soon, and I’m hoping it is confirmed that online one-off matches also have a similar system in place. MLO also apparently has salary caps for each division this year, which is an idea I’ve thought would be great for a while now. I agree that MLO has a lot of potential, and I also agree that it’s flawed, however I certainly have hope for it because it’s such a new mode, and each year we see it evolve bit by bit. Eventually I think there will also be player growth in MLO as well, once they get other priorities (as you say) sorted. First things first.
Cheers DougieDonut — Agree.Konami really need to listen to the fans on this one .its killing the experience for me and other die hard fans….shame I don’t play MLO @dave O. New feature called rival ranking, i read about.
@BrzyTWaa – I too would like to know what FIFA has in place?
There is an online mode in Fifa which I play, called ‘Head to Head Seasons’ …there are 10 divisions, when u start
out you’re in Div 10…and you have 10 matches, it’s basically like a mini season (if you reach 15 pts you get promoted to Div9, if u reach 10 pts u stay put in ur division, and if u get less than 10, u get relegated)…during that season you get matched only against players within that division….if after that season you get promoted to div9, then the next mini season, you only get matched against Div9 players…so that alone gets you matched up against players with more or less your playing abilities… but to make it even better….each match you can choose whatever team you like, and you will get matched up with a player playing with a similar level team….so if for Game1 i feel like playing with a 5-star team (barca, real etc)…then I will get matched with a player who also chose a 5-star team…..if for Game2 i feel like choosing a 2.5 star team from a lower league, I will get matched up with a player who also chose a 2.5 star team…. i think this is brilliant, as not only am i getting matched up with players who possess more or less the same playing abillity as myself, we are also getting matched up according to the team we choose….so far I’ve managed to get to Div2, and just recently I got relegated to Div3 …
P.S. i Still love and prefer pes over fifa, but the shooting in pes turned me off from the game this year, plus the flawed MLO system…hopefully the salary cap in pes13 will make the mode much much better …
Head to Head Seasons.
Sounds cool.
@BrzyTwAa Sounds good man.
I tell you what, if Konami don’t fix this in time fot pes2013 – im fooking out..
And Dougie, I will be applying for my refund- FaCT!
EDIT * inferior to other 4.5 star teams* I meant of course.
Why was my post describing Head to Head seasons removed???? Not a single offensive word in it, I just said FIFA nailed that part, isn’t free speech allowed on this site anymore???
Never mind, the post appears then disappears all the time. How is that possible?
@Dougie…Dude when a division one player plays against a D4 or D5 player he has about 20-30 points to lose and if he wins he gets like 3. This is the reason I only play against D1s. The one time I was desperate for a match I played a D4 player, I beat him, and got ONE point for it. So that “pittance” you speak of is already in place mate.
@KingSuarez – How are you picking and choosing who you play against? You’re talking about online, but not MLO, right?
Aaaah my bad! Yeah I tried MLO for like 10 matches I think. Disgusting system. Nice idea.
Dougie Why are my posts here on your post being queued for Moderation all of a sudden?
Okay I posted this 13 hours ago and then again a couple of minutes ago both are still sitting in some moderation process on here?????? Anyway I’m reposting it in smaller chunks this time ….
Hi Dougie
Given your procedure on game development and resources surely something like ‘major online cheating flaws’ would catapult its way up the pecking order of what needs to be done in the game? I’m not a huge online gamer with PES if you were to see my MLO stats, well lets say they leave alot to be desired lol I just don’t play it really and to be honest I wouldn’t really care if it was online or not however to think that the online component is not vitally important for the success of the game is being idiotic. I just cannot believe that Konami are that blind.
I give up I tried everything to put the rest in but it keeps being put into a moderation process …
Okay trying again lol
CONT…..So on one hand I could have that Konami are prioritising and are just ignorant of the online feedback but on the other I could have Konami are prioritising extremely, Extremely badly and just don’t assess this online issue as that important as lets say pumpkin heads and sweet shaped balls.
Blast! the rest keeps being put into moderation lol
lol using moderation is definitely a good way to get the last word I suppose ;)
BLAST!! What a douche bag.
There’s also nothing in my post that could be confused as a swear word by the system so its definitely not that either….in a way I guess I should be flattered that these measures were taken lol
In a way I hope its some kind of really unusual glitch because the alternative is that it is just plain petty behaviour
My post modded from yesterday
Hi Dougie
Given your procedure on game development and resources surely something like ‘major online cheating flaws’ would catapult its way up the pecking order of what needs to be done in the game? I’m not a huge online gamer with PES if you were to see my MLO stats, well lets say they leave alot to be desired lol I just don’t play it really and to be honest I wouldn’t really care if it was online or not however to think that the online component is not vitally important for the success of the game is being idiotic. I just cannot believe that Konami are that blind.
So on one hand I could have that Konami are prioritising and are just ignorant of the online feedback but on the other I could have Konami are prioritising extremely EXTREMELY badly and just don’t assess this online issue as that important as lets say pumpkin heads and sweet shaped footballs.
Neither option is good to me it makes Konami sound like b.umbling novices who don’t know what their doing and need a huge outcry by fans for a couple of years in one area of the game in order for the penny to drop and to realise it needs fixing.
If prioritising is being done I reckon its more in line with a policy of ‘what’s the minimal can we get away with adding and what won’t be missed when we omit’ but hey thats my opinion
I also want to say this because I seem to be coming on here criticising the game and Konami alot lol
I love PES since the early days of ISS and there would be nobody happier than me if PES 2013 completely blew me away and was a huge improvement but I’ve just got to say things as ‘I’ see them and I know my opinions unintentionally may annoy or upset others nevertheless I will continue doing so. I just don’t want people thinking I’m trolling or coming from a hate place because its simply not true
Hi there this is Lucifer666 :)
I will be heard …oh yes I will be heard lol
My post modded from yesterday
Hi Dougie
Given your procedure on game development and resources surely something like ‘major online cheating flaws’ would catapult its way up the pecking order of what needs to be done in the game? I’m not a huge online gamer with PES if you were to see my MLO stats, well lets say they leave alot to be desired lol I just don’t play it really and to be honest I wouldn’t really care if it was online or not however to think that the online component is not vitally important for the success of the game is being idiotic. I just cannot believe that Konami are that blind.
So on one hand I could have that Konami are prioritising and are just ignorant of the online feedback but on the other I could have Konami are prioritising extremely EXTREMELY badly and just don’t assess this online issue as that important as lets say pumpkin heads and sweet shaped footballs.
Neither option is good to me it makes Konami sound like novices who don’t know what their doing and need a huge outcry by fans for a couple of years in one area of the game in order for the penny to drop and to realise it needs fixing.
If prioritising is being done I reckon its more in line with a policy of ‘what’s the minimal can we get away with adding and what won’t be missed when we omit’ but hey thats my opinion
I also want to say this because I seem to be coming on here criticising the game and Konami alot lol
I love PES since the early days of ISS and there would be nobody happier than me if PES 2013 completely blew me away and was a huge improvement but I’ve just got to say things as ‘I’ see them and I know my opinions unintentionally may annoy or upset others nevertheless I will continue doing so. I just don’t want people thinking I’m trolling or coming from a hate place because its simply not true
Well said Lucifer
@ Lucifer – What are you talking about, specifically? When you say Konami can’t be arsed to fix online cheating problems, and do a poor job of prioritizing, are you talking about the “barca boy” problem, or what?
Thanks KingSuarez :)
@ Dave O
Well first of all I never said that comment about ‘Konami not being arsed to fix online’……. what I was saying was that ‘I’ feel that Konami seem to have a policy for a while now of adding, improving and omitting only what they deem they need to or they can get away with and that if prioritisation is been exercised its to this end! But like I said earlier thats my own opinion. Its up to everyone to make up their own minds
@ Lucifer – Fine, but you know that’s what I meant. You didn’t answer the question though, so I take it you’re just generalizing. I personally think though that you have to look at these things in more detail, and be specific. Anyway, I agree with DD. His understanding and mine of what the gaming industry is like and how they operate under major time restrictions is true from what I know about the industry. I have a friend who works for EA, and I’ve watched a couple documentaries about Konami and other gaming companies behind the scenes and I know they aren’t dragging their heels. In fact, as an artist and arm-chair animator I thought about getting into the gaming industry when I was younger but part of the reason I didn’t is because they work so many long hard hours! It’s crunch time to get everything into the game that they can, and they work really hard, trust me.
@ Dave
What specifics do you want Dave? I don’t let on to be an expert in these online issues but all you have to do is go to any PES forum to realise cheating is a serious issue for loads of people and they should be fixing it like most other game developers do with their games if the need arises.
As for you and DD’s ‘understanding’ of the gaming industry…well that’s all well and good but to be Frank with you I don’t think most of us fans think like that at all nor do I think we should. I believe most get a new game expecting it to be feeling new and improved greatly from the last and when its not WE WILL blame Konami not feel sorry for them because there is a rumour they worked long hours, or any other excuse that I’ve heard like EA are bigger than them.
But this is not just a PES and Konami issue it happens across the board with other video games if they don’t reach expectations or fans feel the developers have slacked off for example Mass Effect 3 fans were furious with the endings they got and you didn’t hear “Oh poor Bioware , they worked really hard on it so let’s cut them a break” No they say (and rightly so) we’ve paid a lot of our money to get this game and we demand better,
@ Lucifer – I was just curious what exactly you were talking about. Like I said, it’s clear to me now that you’re just talking in generalizations. It just hard to even comment on a generalization, but for example if you were talking about the disconnecting issue… Well, the consensus seems to be that the only way to solve that issue is to have dedicated servers, so you see it has nothing to do with Seabass and the PES development team, it’s just about whether the top brass at Konami are willing to spend that much to solve that particular issue. In that case, it’s a matter of weighing the pros and cons. Is it worth it for them to spend x amount of dollars to fix this one issue, when online works well otherwise? Any company must make such decisions wisely or else they would just be throwing money away. They probably have conducted cost-benefit-analysis studies on the issue (and if they haven’t, that’s always the first step, in any business) and what bothers me is that sometimes people don’t understand that just because something didn’t make it into the game it’s not necessarily laziness or Konami trying to rip people off. What they’re doing is trying to run a business, and to stay in business you have to carefully think these sorts of things through.
As for your way of looking at things, you’re entitled to have it, and like you say it’s your opinion, but I’m trying to help you see that there’s another way of looking at it which is a bit less pessimistic. If you look at other sports games, actually PES has major changes each year compared to many others. Take EA’s NHL or Tiger Woods series’ for example… Often from one year to the next they do almost nothing (compared to PES), and I know based on inside info that this is intentional. From my perspective Konami have never done that, at least not intentionally, but this year might actually be the closest thing to it, given that Seabass is working on future versions for the first time. So far, however, the changes still look pretty intriguing, and I can’t wait to play the game personally, so I’m not complaining, especially since I actually think trying to do less this year might lead to a really good game, as opposed to tearing it all apart and rebuilding it with a new engine from the ground up, which they will surely be doing soon…
@ Dave
I don’t think I was talking in generalizations at all….we were talking about prioritizing and I give my opinion on that! I didn’t realise you think that required me to discuss every online flaw and think-tank solutions for Konami besides those who are severely effected by the online problems usually do that on various forums much better than I ever could,
Dave I think your just going to have to accept that I have a different view to you,….. a view that is not due to being in the dark awaiting your ray of light over optimism. thanks for the help but respesctfully I really don’t need it you have given me your opinion I understand it I just don’t agree with alot of it….
I just have to say though Its kind of damning when an excuse of ‘compared to other games that make little or no changes’ we, Konami provide that little bit more’ is used……Could you imagine that on the box when you buy PES 2013 lol
All I’m trying to inject is reality. Not optimism, and certainly not excuses. And yes, you are talking in generalizations. If you give no specifics, and just paint a picture of the way you see things with a broad brush, then I hate to say it but that’s exactly what you’re doing. My example of how the major online cheating issue ISN’T a matter of prioritization is a legitimate one and I think it was an important point to make in this rather broad discussion about “prioritization” and “online cheaters.”
So again, I’m not an optimist, I’m a realist. It’s a ray of reality I’m trying to provide – a view of things that is tempered, informed as much as possible, and hopefully neither pessimistic nor optimistic. It is what it is, which is why I actually think when it comes to this particular point about prioritization that it isn’t my opinion you’re contending with, it’s actual facts that you’re ignoring. I provided insider information, and specific examples, but all you can reply with is “no, that’s not my opinion.” Then you give an “example” of how you “feel” about Konami’s output, but all you managed to do was prove that you don’t see things clearly and within context. That “argument” about excuses is so bugus… I’m tempted to not even go there… What you have said, in effect, is that your expectations are so high that what you expect from PES every year can’t even be compared to what the rest of the industry is putting out… As if there is no limit to what Konami can put into the game each year and we should expect more from them than we do from anyone else in the business… I mean, a year is not a long time to develop a game, dude! It really isn’t! Enough said. I will not reply any more. I know I said that before, but I’ve really decided this time that it’s entirely not worth it. PEACE.
Well as long as we are speaking plainly, to me you come across as a Konami apologist… every time I seem to say anything on this forum lately thats critical towards Konami or PES your in immediately with excuses for them and begin getting nasty and irritated because I don’t except them. As for your ‘Insider information’?? Well why should I believe anything you say? You could be a pimpled kid from the back end of nowhere for all I know. I think its time you got off your high horse a bit mate.
As I said to you before if I annoy you just don’t read my comments!
Finally I will admit my expectations for PES are high (shouldn’t everyone’s be?) but not high enough that it can’t be achieved… There is nothing I want in the game that couldn’t be done today or for the last five years for that matter
I have to learn to ignore people who I don’t see eye to eye with, but I have to admit, it is my weakness.
Ha ha. I just can’t help it sometimes. Anyway, check out this link if you don’t believe my inside info about the industry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer
Also, I have several years experience as a Project Manager in the electronics industry, so that’s also where my understanding of the nature of project life-cycles, constraints, and setting realistic expectations comes from. Prioritization, in fact, was my job, and making good decisions about what to tackle first and tempering the sky-high expectations that sometimes come from those not directly involved in the project was often the difference between success and failure. If you bite off more than you can chew in this sort of industry, the results can be disastrous. That’s just poor project management, but in fact Konami have been guilty of it in the past, for example when they tried but failed to implement mo-cap in 2010. If they had set the bar a little lower we definitely would have had a better all around game that year, and they could have given us more instead of less (the mo cap took a lot of time, but in the end, most of that work was not value-added because it didn’t get implemented into the game).
Oh crap I didn’t realise you responded here until now….. listen Dave I like ya I think your a clever bloke who makes interesting comments but the truth is for most fans is that they just ‘want’ and ‘expect’ (rightly so IMO) and it makes absolutely no difference what business or production system Konami have to follow that may be somehow preventing us from achieving those wants or expectations we are not going to be feeling empathy or be understanding towards them instead after purchasing using our hard earned money we all again willl just have a mixture of frustration and anger.
Personally, I will never believe in the idea of tempering the fans (or my own) expectations high or not after all its that that should be pushing Konami further on the alternative would be simply settling for at best mediocrity On a final note and if you forgive another generalization here I think if Konami are following the rule book set out for all similar type games then its time now to throw that rule book away and write a new one.
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