OK so the demo is available today, and I can’t wait to get back home from work to get downloading.
I’ve created this post for you guys to leave your thoughts on the demo.
And remember fellas – keep it clean and friendly – I won’t hesitate to remove and/or ban people for the usual inappropriate behaviour that rears it’s ugly head occasionally.
RYG Fantasy football
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@ Callum – I think the question of being ripped off or not is easy to answer. If we think we are being ripped off, we should simply not buy the game. People seem to forget that we live in a capitalistic society. If they produce a product and you don’t think it’s worth the money, then nobody is forcing you to pay for it (I don’t mean you specifically btw). For me, PES 2012 has grown stale, but not because of the presentation, because of the gameplay. PES 2013, even if it had no improvements to graphics or presentation, would be a worthwhile purchase for me. I played over 500 matches of PES 2012, so for me the price of admission was certainly worth it. I had a lot of fun, scored some great goals, won some tight victories, built some great teams… These are the things I look back on when I think about value, as opposed to thinking that the crowd chants weren’t what I hoped they would be, or specific cut scenes not being varied enough. To me, the soul of the game is the game itself. You can call this “gameplay” but to me it’s bigger than that, it’s the bigger experience, including cups, leagues, great goals, building your side, matches with friends over a few pints, editing, training, ML, BAL, MLO… The whole experience has huge value to me that far outweighs the sum of it’s parts. So yeah, I guess that’s why for me these little niggly things we are talking about (for some reason) are really not worth talking about. The game is so much more than that. Furthermore, the fact that the game is not torn down and rebuilt every year is a fact for all games in this genre. I really don’t see why we are questioning konami so heavily for things that are the norm in the industry due to financial realities and time constraints.
@ Constantine – Your post makes no sense. Not only does one sentence after the other contradict itself, but your point about PES not having a new game engine since 08/09 is just wrong. In fact, it has been longer than that!!! Ha ha… More importantly though, Fifa’s last new engine was 07, so what the heck is your point? I mean, Fifa really needed a new engine, because their game prior to that way garbage arcade BS, so they went and tried to steal most of what PES’ engine was and added to it… Anyway, I just don’t think you have a sniff what this industry is like. ALL sports games development companies work in iterations (one step at a time). It’s reality, deal with it.
@ constantine,
Who’s starting a franchise war? you? “worthless game” is a bit contradictory, have you even played it for more than 10 minutes? I love the demo I’m giving my opinion of the demo, I’ve played the demo around 30 times already and my opinion hasn’t changed of it since the first, I am defending nothing, I’ve played my share of FIFA, I traded PES 2011 for FIFA 11 for a change of gameplay and after a month I was sick of FIFA and traded back. It offers the most repetitive gameplay which gets tedious after 5 games, again only my opinion. Players feel exactly the same, the amount of tricks you can pull off are absolutely ridiculous and unrealistic, the things I loved about it however are the smooth animations, the great presentation and attention to detail, licensing does not bother me at all as I edit all my teams in PES anyway.
I have seen MANY people complain of FIFA’s lack of change every year, so to say everybody loves FIFA is just ignorant. At least we can all discuss what we like and what we don’t like about the game we enjoy without popping over to the FIFA forums to see what they’re up to.
One more thing, EA does the exact same thing as KONAMI and if you’re trying to tell me that FIFA 12 was not just a re-tweaked, code-edited, visually updated version of FIFA 09 then you’re having a laugh. Play what you like and stfu.
Get back to the FIFA forums if you’ve nothing interesting to say.
@ Dave O,
I’ve clocked an insane amount of hours on PES 2012, and that’s multiplayer alone. I’ll admit I don’t give much time to MLO or online in general due to it giving me button lag for headaches i don’t care to try and explain (I don’t know why but i’ve read that others on Virgin Media also have/have had this problem.) However for what I do play, Leagues, Cups, ML, local multiplayer etc. I can still wholeheartedly say that yes the game has given me enough joy to warrant a 39.99 price tag.
My point would have more relevance if it weren’t released on a yearly basis as you do have to take time etc into account, that said a simple update scheme and a reduced price would be fairer IMO, but as you said capitalism can be a bitch.
The visual/sound aspects are largely subjective. for me they are an important factor, it does not bother me so much on multiplayer but when I’m playing on my own it would be REALLY nice to have a bit of diversity aesthetically, do you really not tire of the commentary? haha.
Seriously though a simple line of code to make the crowd guffaw at a nutmeg, or mix up the goal celebration noises, e.g. FC Barcelona fans have a distinct cheer at the camp nou when a goal is scored. Also, I play on 360 so my modding options are limited.
Superficial to you perhaps but for me crowd reaction to on pitch actions would be game changing, for me, want to make that clear.
I am also what you would call a “hardcore” PES player and of course I know fundamentally that gameplay is what matters, also believe me, editing, team setups, formations, strategies etc are all things i do. However I gotta agree with Lucifer_666 on this one, it really wouldn’t cause them too much trouble to work on the aesthetics, the actual on-pitch mechanics are the hard part.
Cheers.
Edit:
I’m not talking only about PES on the price thing, I mean every developer/game in this genre who use the same type of distribution so I’m not slating KONAMI as one company, I could talk about the games industry for hours about this kind of behaviour but I’ll shut up about it because I don’t really think this is the place to.
@ Callum
I agree with you completely and I think the question of being ripped off you make is a valid one in fact I think that is one of the big reasons for the defection of many fans to the EA game and I do realise also that FIFA make very little changes annually aswell like most games in this genre however because they focus on presentation along with the gameplay it has given them a boost in certain fan’s minds over PES IMO. The question now is how do Konami get these fans back? I fear that it will take more than these gameplay changes the demo provides.
And yeah okay we could just simply say “Don’t buy the game” when the question of it being a rip off is raised but I think that gets us nowhere…I also think that Konami know there are very loyal fans out there who will never move particularly to FIFA. Fans that have bought every game of PES throughout the years who now find it quite difficult to not continue that trend as stupid as that may seem to some…. I find myself in that latter category.
I thank you he has a weakness then it is easy goalkeeper left it please pes2013
Goalkeepers get it right so that they are not easily Drypl
thank you he has a weakness then it is easy goalkeeper left it please pes2013
Goalkeepers get it right so that they are not easily Dribble
@Callum – What I think you’re missing is that it’s so easy to say that Konami should put this little detail or that little detail in that YOU want, but then you have other people like Lucifer asking for other little details (or significant work to be done to add cut scenes to ML), but not everyone can have everything they want! Do you see what I’m saying? At the end of the day the fact is that Konami have an almost endless list of things to put into the game each year, but they have to prioritize. So, some people will moan about the one little thing they want in the game not being there, but saying “it’s easy to add” is missing the bigger picture IMO, because who says your wish list is the same as theirs or the same as what the majority of gamers want? It would be easy to add a mode where you shoot at a tree instead of a net, but who wants it? Also, you all seem to be forgetting that this year is the only year in recent memory when Konami have basically intentionally set presentation aside to work on gameplay. Trust me, if they had made the opposite decision, there would be a lot more moaning on here, because the vast majority of PES fans clearly put gameplay as number 1. People also seem to be forgetting that PES 2010 and 2011 saw major improvements to presentation and graphics so every year is clearly not the same and because presentation was given a back seat this year, I think that goes to show that it will actually be a major focus in the near future. I don’t mean to argue, but some of you seem to only be able to see things in a really black and white way. I’m just saying look at the big picture. I mean, do you really believe that there is a conspiracy by all games companies to rip you off? Have you ever heard of profit? And no, I’m not saying capitalism sucks, actually I’m saying that it is reality, and if it were your company you would want to make money too! On top of that, I also thing some people are clueless when it comes to what goes into the development of a game like this each year. You can keep ranting, but I for one am just laughing at these childish and small minded opinions. I’m sorry, but that’s really how I see things.
@ Dave
You know I agree with what you say about Konami having a problem with people wanting various different things when it comes to presentation but like I said to you before on an earlier post Konami have that issue in every aspect of the game including gameplay…it’s either too slow or too fast, some want the d-pad erased others want to keep it, some realise the game needs scripting while others want the scripting completely gone, some hate invisible Walls others couldn’t care less and so on and so on.
The truth is I think all of us that want changes in presentation can except not getting everything we want as long as they actually make it DIFFERENT and more real….one area I think most would be in agreement with however is the commentary…it needs an overhaul badly as it is basically the same every year
I have to say I didn’t see any big presentation improvement in PES 2010 or 2011? It depends on what exactly you mean by Presentation improvement I guess and if that is your opinion you’re entitled to it
As for looking at the big picture I’ve made this point earlier you are looking at this strictly from a business perspective, and that’s fair enough however most of the fans out there do not look at it like that we just want a better game and demand that for the hard earned money we pay we don’t really care about budgets whether they are a smaller company to EA or anything else
As for your last remark……..seriously Dave? Are you really that arrogant to believe that you have more knowledge than the rest of us which automatically makes your opinions the correct ones?
Do yourself a favour and accept people have different views to you…..views that we feel as strongly about as you do about yours
^ Yep – But I know I can be “too serious” (or “too realistic”) in my opinions. That, however, is why I think they are, indeed, “more right” than those who don’t take the bigger picture into account. I have no problem with someone saying, hey, I wish they would put this into the game, especially if it’s a great idea… But leave it at that! What bugs me is the people who think that what THEY want is what everyone wants, and that Konami are ripping them off for not doing exactly what they say. Again, the bigger picture is that Konami have to do their best to try to please as many people as possible. I feel for them because I have been in jobs and in creative capacities and I know that there are always going to be people who think they could do better but have really no clue what is really involved with making it happen. Also, I may focus on business, but the reality is, it IS a business, and it can never be anything else. You can wish and hope for everything, that’s fine, but in reality to try to say Konami are lazy for not doing what YOU want is just a misinformed and self-centred point of view. For you, I suggest that instead of complaining about how you think Konami have missed the boat by not implementing a sandbox element, why not just write a blog for this website in which you explain your ideas in more detail? Maybe it would get their attention? But try to be professional… And that mean letting your ideas speak for themselves, as opposed to complaining about why they haven’t done exactly what you wanted. One last thing – As an artist, I also have learned that you have to be very careful about the appeal of your own ideas. Question yourself. Is it really the idea that is great, or is it the fact that you came up with it yourself that makes you like it so much? Just food for thought, although I don’t think this applies to you Lucifer, because the sandbox idea isn’t an original one and I do think that although it must be low on the priority list for the average gamer, that it is a good thing for them to develop further at some point.
“Those who don’t take the bigger picture into account?” What you really mean is ‘the bigger BUSINESS picture into account’ and most fans don’t and to be fair I don’t blame them. Only in this genre of game do you here this kind of defence can you imagine if Uncharted 3 was disappointing that any fans would be coming out discussing Naughty Dog’s budgetary concerns and their prioritising or for that matter Ubisoft if Assassin’s Creed 3 is found wanting…….no what you get is fans saying we want this improved, we want that better. As for starting a blog lol surely that’s more up your alley after all you do consider yourself the one with the superior knowledge and so ‘more right’ than me and everyone else here?
On a final note I’m glad to hear you endorse a future place for the sandbox idea no matter whose original thought it was….. At last some common ground ;)
Correction: ‘Hear’ this kind of defence
^ Meh… Well, It’s not defence, it’s just perspective. And by “bigger picture” I don’t just mean business realities, I mean the bigger picture of what the majority of PES fans want. Let me put it this way, let’s say I had a huge hard-on for keepy-uppy, and I wanted there to be the ability in PES to showboat by juggling the ball at any time. Of course, implementing this feature would take time and resources, and although it’s not a terrible idea, most people don’t really care about adding it and want things like the shooting, defending, passing, AI, etc to be sorted first. That being said, it’s fine if I come on here every day and talk about how great of an addition it would be to add this to the series, but when I step over the line is when I start saying how audacious it is that Konami haven’t done this yet, how ripped off I feel, etc. Feeling that way is understandable, because my little desire is not being fulfilled, but in all honesty, I should also be able to realize that quite clearly the reality of the situation is that what I want isn’t what’s important to the vast majority of people who play the game – and thus Konami are actually being smart by putting my idea on the backburner (for now, at least). That’s all I mean when I talk about the bigger picture. And no, I’m not directing this at you solely, it’s a common pet peave of mine, and in fact what makes it hilarious from my perspective is that there are all these different people each with their own little hopes for the game that are all in conflict (with each other!), because each one of them thinks their idea is the most important! But I seem to be the only one who sees how ironic it is that they all think that their idea needs to be in the game because it would be “so easy to implement…” Stop thinking of only yourself for a minute though, and you will see that not everything can be in the game! If you see this you will realize what I’m saying. I’m not saying you shouldn’t share you ideas though, that’s fine.. Tell us what you want, that’s great, but just don’t moan about the fact that it’s not in the game and assume Konami are ripping you off because they haven’t given you exactly what YOU wanted. The fact is that if Konami had an extra year to work on PES 2013, they still might not put your feature in, because they still more than likely have a lot of other higher priority things to improve first that will make the greatest majority of fans the happiest with their output. I for one don’t blame them for prioritizing what the majority of fans want, and I like to think that even if I had ideas of my own that I was adamant about that I could admit that it’s not laziness that keeps them from putting what I want in the game. Maybe it’s just common sense?
OMFG
For those who are a slave to consumerism I feel no sympathy, for those who play the same fundamental gameplay elements each year in and year out and defend it without any constructive criticism of said game I have no sympathy for, furthermore, those who claim they have an understanding of a development process, in particular of one which largely is a pre-developed project in-which the company are “adding” to, with the postee implying to have so called “experience” in that field I feel sorry for….
Giving ideas is one thing, but to say “the vast majority” cares about what the postee states is both contradictory and frankly immature. I can ASSURE you I have known the PES gameplay elements inside and out for f***ing years, and if you really are as deluded to think that they are truly substantially different each year that there’s no more room for improvement be it visually and/or YES gameplay wise then you are no more than an average fool, and i’m not talking about what you value as a product I’m talking about out and out worth of commodity. Perhaps what meets your requirements is absurdly low, on the other hand I have been parting my cash for KONAMI’s product every single year so yes I have a right to declare my opinion on whether what we buy is priced at an appropriate number or not, and frankly to say that people don’t have a right to express their opinions on what they’d like to see added to the game in a very respectful self pro-claimed opinionated manner shows lack of maturity and any value to self-opinion of the questionnaire at hand. I now have no respect for those who have no open mind, I am a PES veteran, I am not however a slave to consumerism, nor a devotee to a “business”
Have some self-respect. have some respect for others and stop being so misled, your precious KONAMI are a games developer like every other company out there, and if you think that “developers” or the “games industry” in the implementation that you so put, e.g. has the right to put out a game with pre-developed “downloadable content” LOCKED ON DISC, and are a sheep to “capitalistic” distribution then I feel for your pathetic views on gaming as a whole, please don’t insult my intelligence. I did try to state clearly that mine was an OPINION however some feel that “what THEY want is what everyone wants” If you can’t open your mind for a centimeter past your own bizarrely low expectations then you truly deserve to be a victim of society. User feedback and ideas are there to be given, do you know what a DEMO is for? Thoughts and opinions. They are NOT to be ridiculed and contradictorily met with pathetic sentimentalism.
You give PES players a bad name.
I tried to keep it respectful but when I’m insulted for what is a fair opinion not only to me but to others on this thread I will not be condescended by a poor argument. I have played PES since I owned a PSX, nay, I have played “PES” since ISS for the SNES. Since you do not have an appreciation for visual/audial elements is fair enough, to turn it into a war and say “the majority” don’t either is both contradictory and naive.
You truly give these forums a bad name.
I hope for a constructive reply and not one which you feel you have to have KONAMI’s consent for.
I could code up more attention to detail in a flash project and it would take me no less than a couple of hours, and to think if my project had been largely developed 2 years ago I wouldn’t have to worry about “what matters.”
For the record I did state that I loved the demo, please for one moment don’t think my opinions degraded the demo in any way shape or form, I also have the awareness that as it’s an early build what “I’d like to see” may still be implemented by final release. Even if it wasn’t I still would enjoy the game very much so, my points on aesthetics are not fundamental ones, rather ideas that would mean a lo to me and I’d hope many others. However for the sake of evolution I believe they are warranted changes. I am not however deluded like some on this thread to think that some kind of “hardcore” audience who are above others would not agree, opinions and ideas are opinions and ideas.
Now somebody get the next round in !
@ Callum
I am a rather massive geek for visuals and graphics, however, I do disagree with parts of your argument. My opinion is, both PES12 and FIFA12 are very dated video games, and are in need of extensive fundamental improvements as well as wholesale changes to the control scheme (which is originally designed to work around the d-pad, not around the analog).
Do I care about “scenes” and “sequences” and other visual features? Absolutely, like I said, I am a massive geek for that type of thing, and graphics are of extreme importance to me. I just don’t want you to get the idea that I am one of those fans who claims that “I don’t care about graphics, the game could have PS1 graphics, but if the gameplay is solid, then I will most certainly play the game”, that’s not where I’m coming from at all.
However, the way I see it, both PES12 and FIFA12 are in need of extensive fundamental improvements, and I know that Konami does not have a big team to focus on all the aspects of the game, even more so considering how quickly a year goes by, so considering the predicament, I do think that aesthetic features need to be put on hold, at least until the game is actually worth playing. The reason why I believe that the “vast majority” of PES fans will always value gameplay over aesthetics, is because not only do I agree with that opinion, but also, because most of my friends agree with that opinion, and because, furthermore, the vast majority of the PES fans on the internet, also happen to agree with that opinion.
As for being “ripped off” by the corporate world, be it because corporations such as Nike and Adidas are earning billions from countries where so many people earn less than $1 USD per working hour, or because EA Sports is charging $60 USD for a minor improvement year after year, or because the food system as well as the education system is rigged, or because the only people who have seen the civilized face of society all happen to be wealthy, or because the people who invented the government have invented the myth of “anarchy” (something that ceased to exist as soon as the first Homo Sapiens emerged into existence) in order to justify the absurdity that centralized power is if you consider the fact that “governments” cannot be eradicated due to the fact that such realities are an inevitable consequence of the evolution of the genes that are responsible for intelligent life, or because you disagree with me due to the fact that you do believe what Thomas Hobbes and Plato argued with their theories about the “social contract”, or because you just feel it and you don’t give a damn about the specifics: the fact of the matter is, how else, if not by transforming an inherent reality into an abstract, can you create a monopoly on the abstract known as legality? Yes, we are being “ripped off” and the vast majority of us are just mere livestock, nobody forced you to buy that product? Capitalism gives you the freedom of choice to decide what you want?
Well I guess that for some people, when powerful adults invest billions into creating a food system that has been scientifically proven to create addiction at a very young age, does not amount to “forcing”, even though, science does proves that it creates addiction.
And I’m also guessing, that for some people, this food system is nothing short of a miracle, seeing how much cheaper the food is because of it, and seeing how many lives can be feed by it, even though on the negative side, cows eating corn instead of grass has created a very aggressive parasite which is evolving quickly, therefore forcing the indefinite spending on stronger and stronger antibiotics to counter the evolving parasites that would have never existed had some moron not decided to start feeding corn to cows, simply because he can create a monopoly around corn yet grass is impossible to regulate. Of course, the antibiotics, or better said, the drugs, do create an addiction and do cause brain damage, as all drugs tend to do; the absurd rise of diabetes and obesity at an early age, is nothing more than nature responding to our claim. And it goes without saying, that drug addiction through food is extremely lucrative for them, because they also happen to own the medicine, which means that they found the way for us to not only buy their product but also pay for the negative ends of their business.
But anyhow, even though I do believe that we are being “ripped off” with these over-priced minor improvements, I still prefer to have something, instead of nothing. Are my standards low? I wouldn’t say that, instead, I would say that I’m just realistic about what this system can produce, and I prefer to have something that I do not enjoy as much as I would like to yet is good enough to play every now and then, than have nothing.
That’s my two cents: I agree that we are being “ripped off” by the video game industry in general, but I also think that people who agree with the gaming priorities of Lucifer_666 are in a minority.
@ Callum
QUOTE
I am not however deluded like some on this thread to think that some kind of “hardcore” audience who are above others would not agree, opinions and ideas are opinions and ideas.
RESPONSE
The fact remains that the term “hardcore” is valid for just about any art that requires a real various levels of ability. Opinions are opinions you say. I say, that a person who still uses the d-pad in PES12 (not necessarily talking about you), is in fact disregarding the superior depth that the analog offers, in favor of the comfort that the familiarity of the d-pad offers…. Now that is a fact, it is not opinion.
What is my opinion, however, is when I choose to describe the analog users as the “hardcore” audience, and the d-pad users as consumers whom are afraid of progress and do not push nor ask for progress, because they don’t even know what progress is at this point. Describe my opinion however you prefer, it takes absolutely nothing away from the aforementioned fact.
For the record, I would like to say that acknowledging the fact that there is a “hardcore” audience in this and any other industry, in no way makes me delusional nor condescending. I would kindly ask you to climb down your high horse, but it’s fun to read reactions like yours.
I think these stats or estimations that most of the fans want gameplay changes instead of everything else is a fabrication or manipulation by some. People want gameplay improvements granted,…hell I want gameplay improvements myself my issue is the assessment that people just want that worked on until deemed ‘right’ and everything else (or just the aesthetics) should take a back seat until that happens? One of the biggest problems I have with this is that Konami are never going to get the gameplay right enough to please everyone or even a majority and so its a neverending hole they would be digging. On the other hand Could someone find me the polls or stats where you are all getting this theory from? And I do mean the ones that say exactly what you all say that gameplay is the SINGULAR most important thing we want to see inmproved not the ones where the people are asked ‘what do you want to see improved in PES?’ and a majority say gameplay because quite frankly everyone is going to say that, its the other
things they also want improved that your not giving any credence to.
If anyone truly believes what you all are saying you must also think that FIFA’s gameplay had become superior or at least matched PES’s and the reason I say that is the chunk of traditional PES fans who moved over to FIFA, why did they do it? Its not because EA changed their game a whole lot every year more than Konami, I don’t even think its the licenses issue because I simply couldn’t see that being that important to someone who played PES for so long to move for… the one big screaming difference between the two however is the aesthetics and the fact that Konami have remained stagnant while FIFA continually work on theirs.
BTW Amateur I think I lost ya around the ‘very aggressive parasite’ part lol I was waiting for the Industrial Revolution or aliens to be mentioned as you seem to have thrown everything else in there lol….I love the way the way you try to bring back the d-pad argument again…..this big fish is not biting today!!
Finally I can’t believe how arrogant and closed minded some people are on these discussions but its not just that, some almost act like they’re scared of it or something, that these ideas must be immediately shot down, or ridiculed before they spread? Otherwise you would imagine a simple ‘I don’t agree with you’ after explaining their position would suffice instead of the barage of personal attacks?
@ Amateur
The point is…..
Of course gameplay comes first, I tried to make that real clear! Lucifer666 uses the D-pad, fair play to him so what? Other PES players could even argue that they are more hardcore for using the D-pad as the game still operates in the fundamental areas in 8 bloody directions! (I’ve used analogue since PES 2009 for the record. Granted largely because the 360 dpad was an abomination.)
I could argue for hours with my mates about how keyboard and mouse is the only way to play FPS but they will argue back for just as long, people have preferences and to be honest, some people don’t understand the reasons why analogue is better suited, or about how many directions you can run in; or deadzones and hit boxes, for some it doesn’t enter their mind, I guess that’s what you don’t call hardcore? However they play what they feel comfortable with. My good friend who is still a dpad user gives me very challenging matches.
Once KONAMI finally eradicate the dpad then users will be forced to use the analogue stick anyway, which means we all have an advantage while they’re not used to it =P. So seriously though maybe you should get on at KONAMI about it instead of belittling others who use a control scheme offered in the game.
SECONDLY
Why is it, that they won’t bother to update the game’s other aspects when the gameplay is finished with? I know what the term “hardcore” represents and I would definitely fit into that category, so then, you can count me in the vast majority, however I want aesthetic updates because I know that they could do it if they chose to without it being a resource hog, again it is subjective, the difference is all you guys attacking these ideas have this loyalty thing and it’s BS if you can’t accept any other input with any embrace or you somehow think it has to be one or the other; if they update the games sound look and feel, they won’t have space for game mechanics, because that’s silly. I don’t know why everyone always says KONAMI is a small company??? Who the hell started that mirage? KONAMI have released some of the most prolific gaming franchises in history. It’s one of the largest companies in profit. Don’t tell me that they can’t AT THE VERY LEAST, sort out the summer transfers before the game hits release in October, I mean c’mon!
I love dynamic trapping, I love dynamic one-twos, I love setting up my team’s strategies and balances, but can I please have the right players in the right teams? Again though, these things “probably don’t matter” to the “vast majority” even if they didn’t would you complain if these things got addressed? NO.
Peace out.
Well said Callum!! (about four or five posts up….)
@ Callum – I’m glad I obviously stuck a nerve with you. However, so many of the things you’ve said are incorrect regarding me and my opinions that it’s almost impossible to respond. I will say, however, that in a nutshell I am not defending Konami, I am only trying to shed a bit of reality on the situation. Did I ever say I think they are doing all the right things, that I am satisfied, or anything to that effect? No, all I’m saying is that when it comes to the little things that people want, I’m fine with people sharing their ideas, that’s great, but I’m only pointing out that I, for one, laugh at how obvious it is that some people know nothing about the industry and the way it works (the reality of the situation). If that gives these forums a bad name then that’s… Well, that’s just weird. If you can’t respect that, then… You must be misunderstanding. All I’m saying is that it seems very immature to come on here and whine about what Konami haven’t done for you specifically and how you feel ripped off. If you feel ripped off, then stop buying the bloody game! Simple! As for me being a consumerist sheep, that’s just hilarious. Dude, if you owned a business you’re saying you would give things away for free and that you would put in twice the normal hours to try to please everyone? And besides, Konami have never even charged for dlc! As for the rest of the industry, as I have said before I have a friend who works with EA and I know a lot of the dubious things that happen at that place! No, they are not entirely evil, but they do, intentionally, suck the budget for a game down to almost nothing once they strangle out the market (which is what would happen if Fifa kicked Konami out and there was only one real competitor in the Football game market). Anyway, I’m FAR from being a sheep, but I know a bit, and one thing I do know is that when it comes to Konami and PES it’s just NOT a mad conspiracy. If you want to believe that, fine, but I’m just here to let you know somebody things you’re out to lunch. Obviously though, I have to learn that I can’t help people see what they don’t want to see. It’s hopeless.
Erm… well yes if I had a business that’s generally how it works I would try to please everyone on multiple levels to the best of my ability which ultimately increases sales and puts more money in my pocket, it’s called a demographic.
I particularly don’t like what your saying because you strike me as someone who feels like part of some kind of clique of gamer elites who think “oh well if they start spending their time developing things I don’t care about then the quality will be lost on what I do care about” The only whining I seen came from you with your contradictions.
So while you’re still being fulfilled with the same standards of what is meant to be a whole package btw, the rest of us who are tired of re-mastering a great game every year with the same boring cosmetics and rightfully ask for more, you’re actually slowing down the evolution of the game with complete disregard of suggestions from other users because it does not surplus your “hardcore” requirements. Perhaps you just like an argument.
You “have a mate who works for EA” so suddenly you’re an expert on the games industry, that about sums it up for me.
I have nothing more to say.
Once again I wholeheartedly agree with you Callum
@ Dave O
Why do you keep bringing up conspiracies? The only one thats mentioning conspiracies is yourself?
You really have the idea in your head that because you assess yourself with more knowledge than the rest of us that we should all adopt your standing or accept everything you say as fact or right?….you just can’t see why we wouldn’t do that…. can you? I myself can’t believe your saying some of the things you are saying, one wonders can your head fit through your own front door?
I really think you need to step back and have a long think about how you deal with people with differing views to you. Your entitled to your views and to share them here in fact I encourage it, we are all enriched by hearing varied views and opinions but having someone come on here more or less saying their view is the only one or the only right one is arrogance of the highest order. What’s even worse again is attempts to try and ridicule or belittle those who have alternative views to yours. Ask yourself this after reading through the last few discussions and reading your responses would a newcomer feel completely comfortable to come on here and say something against the grain? I think they would be ultimately put off….. As Callum suggested before this is not a good advertisement for this site or PES fans.
@ Callum – Good, because absolutely everything you said above is rubbish. I never said I was “hardcore,” I never said I was satisfied, and my friend who works for EA is not an issue, it’s just a fact that I’m using to supplant your weird bias with a does of reality. As for cosmetics, again, stop seeing things so black and white! PES 2010 was all about graphic changes, and some years are more about mode changes, but gameplay always needs to be paid attention to because if it wasn’t then the reality is that the game would REALLY falter in the market. Plus, I mean, what are you even saying exactly about how you would run (or should I say ruin) a business? WTF does demographic have to do with it? That’s my whole point actually, because the majority of people care more about gameplay, and that’s a demographic fact!
@ Lucifer – Conspiracy = “Konami are intentionally trying to rip us off.” Callum’s idea, not mine. I just called it for what it is. A conspiracy theorist’s way of looking at things. Some people see things only as they want to see them, because it makes them feel empowered, I guess…
As for my head, you’re so way off it’s ridiculous. Anyone who knows me knows I’m humble, easy going, and about as far from egotistical as you could imagine, really. However… Everyone who knows me well also knows that if somebody is dead wrong, doing something they shouldn’t, or harming others, I’m not afraid to step up and make things right.
And yes, you have a right to spurt whatever you want on here. Don’t I have a right to call you on it if you’re full of it? And you call me hypocritical? Hmmmm…
Anyway, it’s you who needs to look in the mirror. The truth is that I really don’t care what you think and I’m not offended in the least because nobody has said anything even close to something that makes me think I might be wrong about where I’m coming from. Can you honestly say that about the things I’m saying? Personally, I think it’s pretty obvious that you and Callum are both squirming trying vainly to defend your unfounded opinions, or at least that’s the way it seems to me.
All that being said, forget about it. I’ve said my piece. Just don’t forget there is someone reading who thinks the way I do. Say whatever you want to, but know that at least somebody is facepalming with every word they read of what you’re saying.
Hahahahaha!! Ignorance is bliss.
I love how you take what I say completely out of context and conclude that I’m some mad conspiracy theorist LOL, re-read my comments, I did state I wasn’t talking solely about any one developer I said that the simple fact of the matter is, what we pay to fulfill our videogaming habbits is ridiculous, much like the price of petrol or tobacco if you are a smoker, people know that it is no secret that it’s over priced, but we all still want to game.
I’ve had enough of this website I fear for more Dave O’s who can’t respect thoughts and musings.
I’m just going to say one more thing to Dave O before i get arrested by the spamming police and then i’m done here. I’d like to point out the biggest flaw and contradiction of your whole entire argument, the very first point you made about what you don’t like in the game is this:
“Not liking how the players lips move during the national anthems. To me it would be better if they just stand there, because them trying to sing is just a fail IMO and it takes away from the realism.”
Wow, suffice to say Dave O is a self-certified for the sake of it arguer with an ego bigger than the moon.
Cheers.
Dave O
QUOTE
Anyway, I’m FAR from being a sheep, but I know a bit, and one thing I do know is that when it comes to Konami and PES it’s just NOT a mad conspiracy. If you want to believe that, fine, but I’m just here to let you know somebody things you’re out to lunch. Obviously though, I have to learn that I can’t help people see what they don’t want to see. It’s hopeless.
RESPONSE
A very fair and sensible point, agree with almost every word, but I still don’t quite get your perspective on getting “ripped off”. If EA Sports kicked Konami out of this genre, EA Sports would do less but would still charge the same: in other words, EA Sports would rip you off.
Like you mentioned though, it is not a “conspiracy”, but merely how just about any industry works, hence why I think we are in fact being “ripped off” even if there is no evil conspiracy beneath the surface.
Furthermore, I would like to add that it’s just quite amusing to see how Lucifer_666 is in complete denial…. If we do a poll, and the numbers do show that Lucifer_666 is indeed in a minority, then he will say that “the polls were not accurate, people with my priorities are too cool for the internet” or if that isn’t good enough, then “a fabrication or manipulation by some” will be the logical retort (what?) I mean, do I really want to manipulate people into believing a fact that speaks for itself?
I’m not even “against” graphical improvements, but like you mentioned in one of your posts, we could argue that with PES09 and PES10, Konami focused more on graphical improvements than gameplay, which I think is indeed a fact. Now we have seen no graphical improvement, but more gameplay tweaks, which does add up to how Konami has always worked.
I guess that means I’m “shooting down” and even “stigmatizing” Lucifer666′s humble opinion.
*
*
Lucifer666
QUOTE
If anyone truly believes what you all are saying you must also think that FIFA’s gameplay had become superior or at least matched PES’s and the reason I say that is the chunk of traditional PES fans who moved over to FIFA, why did they do it? Its not because EA changed their game a whole lot every year more than Konami, I don’t even think its the licenses issue because I simply couldn’t see that being that important to someone who played PES for so long to move for… the one big screaming difference between the two however is the aesthetics and the fact that Konami have remained stagnant while FIFA continually work on theirs.
RESPONSE
Completely disagree, the reason why so many fans replaced PES with FIFA, is due to many perfectly logical reasons: because PES08 and PES09 destroyed the credibility of the franchise, because FIFA08 was ten times better than PES08, because the infamous “robotic” animations that do accurately describe PES throughout the PS3´s lifespan are still very much apparent on PES13, because FIFA10 was the first one to offer a new passing system that felt less “on rails”, etc, etc.
That is my opinion, but curiously enough, the vast majority of people on the internet agree with the same opinion that I agree with, so maybe something is adding up? Or is this another “fabrication” or “manipulation” by the millions of fans who have absolutely no reason to manipulate anyone?
QUOTE
Finally I can’t believe how arrogant and closed minded some people are on these discussions but its not just that, some almost act like they’re scared of it or something, that these ideas must be immediately shot down, or ridiculed before they spread? Otherwise you would imagine a simple ‘I don’t agree with you’ after explaining their position would suffice instead of the barage of personal attacks?
RESPONSE
I can only hope that you are not including me into that group of “closed minded” individuals whom are not as brilliant as you, as in no way did I ever “ridiculed”or “shot down” your ideas…. Hey, have you given any thought to the possibility that, maybe, just maybe, you are one of those arrogant and closed minded individuals that you seem to despise? And that when you talk about them you are in many ways describing yourself? Just saying, that it would explain a lot of your unnecessary (albeit amusing) “in favor” or “against” manipulation of words.
Callum
QUOTE
Of course gameplay comes first, I tried to make that real clear! Lucifer666 uses the D-pad, fair play to him so what? Other PES players could even argue that they are more hardcore for using the D-pad as the game still operates in the fundamental areas in 8 bloody directions! (I’ve used analogue since PES 2009 for the record. Granted largely because the 360 dpad was an abomination.)
RESPONSE
Fully agree with that…. what we have now is NOT real analog control, but merely a 360 degree d-pad, which is the only reason why people can still use the d-pad and get away with it, because fundamentally the game (and FIFA13 is no different) still functions around a D-PAD SYSTEM…..
However, shouldn’t I, as a “hardcore” gamer, criticize this massive flaw and expose the fact by mentioning the fact that I can beat analog users by playing with the d-pad?
You may disagree with me on this, but a person who, instead of criticizing the flaw, prefers to sum up his opinion by saying “I prefer the d-pad, it’s more responsive”, is most definitely NOT hardcore. A “hardcore” gamer would never describe a deficiency with the term “preference” because he would now that he uses the d-pad because using the analog in a video game that still works around a d-pad system is just a preference but not something that truly offers a technical advantage.
I can use the d-pad but I prefer the analog, however, my personal preference takes absolutely nothing away from the fact that the analog is a vastly superior button. Which is why I feel that a person whom would be perfectly pleased if the game remained d-pad for the next five or ten years, is not a “hardcore” gamer, maybe he was “hardcore” back in year 2000, but everything changes with the passing of time.
Callum
QUOTE
I could argue for hours with my mates about how keyboard and mouse is the only way to play FPS but they will argue back for just as long, people have preferences and to be honest, some people don’t understand the reasons why analogue is better suited, or about how many directions you can run in; or deadzones and hit boxes, for some it doesn’t enter their mind, I guess that’s what you don’t call hardcore? However they play what they feel comfortable with. My good friend who is still a dpad user gives me very challenging matches.
Once KONAMI finally eradicate the dpad then users will be forced to use the analogue stick anyway, which means we all have an advantage while they’re not used to it =P. So seriously though maybe you should get on at KONAMI about it instead of belittling others who use a control scheme offered in the game.
RESPONSE
No, being “hardcore” in year 2012 has little or nothing to do with knowing and understanding the specifics that surround the deficiencies that you dislike, being “hardcore” is simply knowing when something is wrong, and complaining about it by either (a) not buying PES because you’re fed up of their outdated turd or (b) complain in the forums.
For the record, I have not “belittled” anyone for using the d-pad, instead, what I actually did, was “criticize” the people who say that they “use the d-pad because they prefer it” instead of simply saying (a) “I use the d-pad, not only because I prefer it, but also because PES12 is a d-pad game to begin with” or (b) “I don’t know exactly why that is, but the analog doesn’t seem to offer any advantage for me, it somehow doesn’t feel manual even playing with zero assistance, so I just prefer to play with the d-pad”.
I think I am being perfectly fair, in criticizing people for what they write. If you are lazy enough to sum up your opinion by saying that “I still use the d-pad because I prefer it”, then do not complain when a “hardcore” gamer criticizes you for your complacency or laziness.
And by the way, most of my complains are unequivocally aimed at Konami, but I still like to get involved in the discussions with us consumers.
QUOTE
Why is it, that they won’t bother to update the game’s other aspects when the gameplay is finished with? I know what the term “hardcore” represents and I would definitely fit into that category, so then, you can count me in the vast majority, however I want aesthetic updates because I know that they could do it if they chose to without it being a resource hog, again it is subjective, the difference is all you guys attacking these ideas have this loyalty thing and it’s BS if you can’t accept any other input with any embrace or you somehow think it has to be one or the other; if they update the games sound look and feel, they won’t have space for game mechanics, because that’s silly. I don’t know why everyone always says KONAMI is a small company??? Who the hell started that mirage? KONAMI have released some of the most prolific gaming franchises in history. It’s one of the largest companies in profit. Don’t tell me that they can’t AT THE VERY LEAST, sort out the summer transfers before the game hits release in October, I mean c’mon!
I love dynamic trapping, I love dynamic one-twos, I love setting up my team’s strategies and balances, but can I please have the right players in the right teams? Again though, these things “probably don’t matter” to the “vast majority” even if they didn’t would you complain if these things got addressed? NO.
Peace out.
RESPONSE
I also want that, but based on experience, Konami nor any other corporation in the industry, has ever improved graphics without the gameplay suffering a set back, nor improved the gameplay without the graphics suffering a set back….. Hence why I agree that we consumers are being “ripped off” as has always been the trend when an industry becomes powerful: they could do both, but they prefer more money for doing less.
So what I’m saying is simple: yes, in an ideal world, I would want both…. but…. because I have seen enough evidence to believe that I do understand the establishment well enough, to know when my expectations are realistic or unrealistic…. If you expect significant improvements to both the graphics and the gameplay: cool, when I say that I think that your ideas are “unrealistic” considering the whole picture as it currently stands, I am not “shooting down” your ideas, but merely saying that I have never ever seen what you expect from a video game franchise that is sold on a yearly basis.
Anyways, thank you for the time that you’ve dedicated to this discussion. Peace out.
Callum
QUOTE
Erm… well yes if I had a business that’s generally how it works I would try to please everyone on multiple levels to the best of my ability which ultimately increases sales and puts more money in my pocket, it’s called a demographic.
RESPONSE
It’s not that simple, but a simple question would suffice to make the point: why was it that, throughout the PS2 era, FIFA always outsold PES even though PES offered equally good graphics and vastly superior gameplay?
Because that guy who wants to play a game that he can master after 20 minutes of playing it, does not want a video game with real depth, he avoids video games that force him to spend more than just 20 minutes before finding out every level depth that the game offers: and, of course, because this guy will always outnumber the “hardcore” consumer who wants to spend hours mastering every detail that the game offers.
That’s why FIFA always outsold PES even when the PES franchise was at its peak. So (and correct me if I’m wrong) if I try to please everyone on multiple levels: how would that increase my earnings?
Would the “hardcore” market magically grow, therefore increasing sales and thus my earnings? To me, it sounds as though you put yourself in this little bubble, where you believe that any corporation that works the way you think they should, will magically maximize the profits coming their way; but I argue, do you not think that the “capitalistic” world in which we live in, does to a great extent, predetermine the “modus operandi” of any industry?
I could invest more of MY MONEY into my product, but in the case of PES, why would this mean that more copies of PES would be sold? Poverty will remain the same, the “casual” gamers will stay away from my product, and more or less the very same number of “hardcore” gamers will buy my product, so where are my increased earnings? The outcome would be a decrease in profit, due to me investing more money into my own product, yet the product selling more or less the same exact number of copies.
And to add to that decrease in profit, I must also take into account that healthy food is overpriced, that education is overpriced, that cars are overpriced, that gasoline is overpriced, that housing is overpriced, etc, etc. Realistically, I cannot afford to invest more money into my product, knowing that the product will still sell more or less the same number of copies. After all, I am not selling a universal necessity such as food or education, I am selling a new age (expensive) commodity to a very specific market.
Though having said that, the current situation for Konami is that they want to “win the old crowd back”, they are no longer in their comfort zone, but my point is, once Konami manages to recuperate what they lost, would their sales continue increasing if they invested more money into their product?
I do not think so, though I admit that perhaps I’m naive enough to overlook a crucial factor.
It’s really simple actually, if they met the criteria for an average game review; a review is made up of sub-reviews focusing on every aspect of the game (presentation, sound, look and feel), thus if they tried to tackle every aspect the game would score higher as it is rated in every department, this leads to critical acclaim which apart from marketing is the next best way to get your game buzzing with interest and sell. I think it’s fair to say that by today the majority of gamers will do some research on a game they’re interested in buying and it’s competition. If PES is getting metascores of around 90 then people will feel more inclined to give it their time and realise it’s a great game at the core.
I don’t know where you got your stats but PES 6, perhaps the peak of PES (for me) so far followed closely by PES 5 sold more copies than FIFA 07 on a global scale, perhaps you didn’t take worldwide sales into account; PES 6 got a perfect score 10/10 from OPM while FIFA got 9/10.
That being said, the main reason a lot of buyers might choose FIFA would be to simply not look past PES’ achilles’ heel, which brings me to my point, licensing issues are one thing and realistically will never be obtained by KONAMI, but apart from licensing, aesthetics on the whole are important. My point was never about graphical change as such, as far as I’m concerned the player models in PES look excellent. it’s more about using the effects of sound, animation and presentation to add to the games atmosphere, because going back to my point we as humans in this society simply judge most things on a superficial level on first impression i.e. looks, and that’s a fact. With games first impressions are no less important, so if KONAMI is to widen their audience, they’d logically start with aesthetics to draw in new crowds, then once the consumers see how good a game it is on a deeper level i.e. gameplay, controls, customization, team setups all the things which PES is renowned for, the game will only rise in popularity.
In a nutshell, a large part of FIFA’s fanbase is as such on a superficial level, real team names, crowd chants, everything they familiarise with which the game simulates admirably. PES probably doesn’t get the attention it deserves, so they don’t have a chance to experience PES on a technical level as they’ve already made their mind up. As far as the sector of PES fans that jumped ship to FIFA goes, Well I’m sure we can all agree that PES 08 (next gen) 09 10 weren’t the series’ highest points.
I agree with most of what you said though, albeit long as hell.
Don’t your not shooting down my opinion or stigmatising me there because As Callum states in his last post its not the models of the players we were referring to but more about using the effects of sound, animation and presentation to add more realism to the game. I do love however how you can clearly and confidently say that the majority of the internet agrees with you? Though its curious how you still haven’t produced the polls which say exactly what your saying here which I requested earlier? Instead of worrying whether I believe in these polls… produce them!….lets see what we are talking about here!
QUOTE FROM AMATEUR
“Completely disagree, the reason why so many fans replaced PES with FIFA, is due to many perfectly logical reasons: because PES08 and PES09 destroyed the credibility of the franchise, because FIFA08 was ten times better than PES08, because the infamous “robotic” animations that do accurately describe PES throughout the PS3´s lifespan are still very much apparent on PES13, because FIFA10 was the first one to offer a new passing system that felt less “on rails”, etc, etc.
That is my opinion, but curiously enough, the vast majority of people on the internet agree with the same opinion that I agree with, so maybe something is adding up? Or is this another “fabrication” or “manipulation” by the millions of fans who have absolutely no reason to manipulate anyone?” QUOTE FROM AMATEUR
Okay,.. again.. find me these numerous polls that make you assess the vast majority of people on the internet agree with your opinion
As for your last part I actually HAVE included you in those ‘closed minded people’ well before even this conversation in fact but this just further hardens my view on you, I think your a clever guy and have even stood up for you before ages back saying everyone has a right to voice their opinions when others where saying you should
be banned however you were never and still aren’t open minded when it comes to anything you disagree with in fact on many occasion your just plain rude even when your trying to be nice (or at least looks that way) its done with a real arrogance
Oh and here’s another thing too…. writing essays/long massive posts does not make you look more intelligent than anyone else nor does it validate your opinion more than anyone else’s
I am finishing with this conversation now though I’ve had enough….. Callum if I were you I’d leave it too its really not worth the hassle…some people will never see the error of their ways… though give PESGAMING as a whole a go I do think its a good site for PES and there are alot of others on here who are fair and will here you out properly.
Correction to beginning of that post …… Don’t WORRY your not shooting down my opinion……………
@ Callum – I too will say just one last thing:
You said:
“Not liking how the players lips move during the national anthems. To me it would be better if they just stand there, because them trying to sing is just a fail IMO and it takes away from the realism.”
Wow, suffice to say Dave O is a self-certified for the sake of it arguer with an ego bigger than the moon.
RESPONSE:
Actually I was wrong about this, but I also fail to see what your point is. Why am I an egoist for pointing out an unrealistic aspect of the presentation? That makes zero sense. Anyway, as I said, I was wrong about it being an issue for 2013. The players lips moving was there in 2012 as well. I also admitted that I was wrong about the opening scenes being new. One thing about me is that if I am shown I am wrong I will always concede. I have no problem with that. Look back, however at the argument you have tried to form in response to what I am saying. What exactly is that argument other than a sting of insults? If you want to argue, make some points that are relevant to the discussion. It seems to me like Lucifer has tried this, but like you, most of his “argument” is simply insults. Calling me arrogant, for example, doesn’t prove anything. I may be arrogant, but I also may be right, in which case my arrogance, in this matter, is purely justified. If you want I can summarize the argument I’m making and then it can be addressed point by point (make your counter argument if you want), but to date the points I’m making have simply been ignored and responded to with insults or empty statements like “I don’t agree.” I admit, too, that I do enjoy an argument, but you should know that I pick my battles very carefully, and only when I am convinced I am right. That being said, if you can show me some reasonable reason why I am wrong, I’m willing to admit it, even if I’ve been arguing for a while. For example, Amateur at one point explained his ideas in detail to me, and now I can see where he is coming from. Sometimes, I realize, that the problem is that people don’t explain themselves very well (or in enough detail for someone like me who likes to actually understand what I’m being told), and once it’s better explained, then it can make sense and I can admit that there is validity to the position they are taking. I haven’t seen that from either Lucifer or Callum, so I stand by my position. And btw, I don’t really expect to convince either of you of anything, but if I’m right (and I think I am) that just proves that you, unlike me, are unwilling to listen or get off your high horse. Give me a real reason to consider your position, as I have given you, and we might be able to see eye to eye. I really don’t see, however, how you can look at things the way you do though, because it doesn’t help, it’s not realistic, and even if you admit that maybe your ideas are lower priority, that doesn’t mean they are bad ideas or that they won’t get implemented eventually, so what’s the big deal? As for feeling ripped off by all games companies… Okay, but isn’t that true of any business in the world? How much does a Starbucks coffee cost to make versus how much we pay for it? Have you ever heard of a cost-benefit-analysis? I used to do these all the time (I suppose that makes me an egomaniac???) and the truth is that you have to take it a lot of factors into consideration in order to make a target profit, including overhead of the company, exchange rates, sales figures, etc, etc, etc. If Konami didn’t operate the way they do, they would be the only company in the world who didn’t. I highly suggest you read up on economics a bit, I think it would be really eye opening how much is involved. For example, consider the fact that if Konami lowered their profit margins (started throwing money and resources at PES with disregard for return on investment) then this would of course be visible to the market, and as a publicly traded company, the stock value would be directly affected. Investors would balk at this and CEOs would lose their heads. It’s just the way it works, but believe it or not, it’s actually just common sense. There’s a reason why all companies work this way. Of course, investment is sometimes seen by the market as positive, but it has to be tempered with a reasonable business plan and aimed realistically at capturing market share (and I don’t see that ML cut scenes and small aesthetic changes for THIS YEAR would change things so much that there would be a return on investment). Regardless, the point is that there is, ultimately, a limit, and also son’t ignore the fact that every year they focus on different aspects to improve. This year was gameplay, and surely next year aesthetics will be a major focus. I have yet to hear a reasonable response to this point, unless I missed something amidst all the petty insults.
@ Dave
I’m not responding anymore here…it’s an endless circle, you both have your strong beliefs we have ours let’s leave it at that.. I just hope in the future you actually just respect that other people have different views and opinions and realise it’s not your job to try to disprove or discredit either the views or the person making them.. If you don’t like a view..Fine!….. By all means Disagree give your own opinions but leave it at that
I know I said I would stop posting but you are some man Dave, I promise this will be my last.
My point….?
OK, time to kill this whole thing.
You chose to take it upon yourself to drop some “knowledge” about KONAMI’s development programme when I said one line of text and further added an EDIT post which I clearly stated that I wasn’t talking about KONAMI in particular etc. in case of whiney children like you who felt had to blow that up (about being ripped off.) Still you ignored it, and I didn’t expect you to be the type to feel you had to come across superior, I actually liked a lot of what you said about the game initially and said I agreed with you. I merely said that I felt it was harsh the response that Lucifer got as I too am one of those people who would like to see similar changes as him and no I’m not talking about “ML cutscenes” I’m sick of you ignoring to take anything that I say on-board.
Now, firstly I was annoyed at your complete lust for approval, from who I truly don’t know, about what you think, in that you completely attacked my views out of no where about game-aesthetics.
Now, for you to put an “aesthetic” input as the FIRST thing you don’t like about the game, then to completely BACKTRACK on what you had said to tell me and others that we’re bang out of order for adding our own input about one aspect of a game and “whining and moaning about what we’d like to see when more important things are an issue” (talking of high horses mate), and don’t get me started about you “were wrong” about the players lips moving, If i could be bothered I would quote a lot of what followed about what you DO like in the game… ahem, player ID for instance, lets just say everything which is pleasing to the eye, that shows a real lack of character man to contradict yourself like that for the sake of arguing, and that’s what p****d me right off.
Who’s to say I couldn’t buy the game every year pre-owned Dave O? Then the developer would receive no profit whatsoever, that still doesn’t stop them from making enough profit to feed Africa, and you’ve got the nerve to tell me it would cost too much to update the sound effects. I’m sure of one thing, when HMV and all the rest shuts down and we’re all downloading our games digitally for each gamertag on one system without the ability to trade them, sell them, or lend them when we’re finished with them, I’ll be thinking of you and your sheepish views on the industry you know so much about.
PS. Dave, you know what EA’s earnings were for the fiscal of 2011?…….4 billion dollars.
You don’t have a clue about where the future of gaming is going sir.
I’m out.
@ Callum – Well, this time at least you’ve said a few things! But you can drop the petty insults. It only makes you look like a sore loser with hurt feelings. If I have hurt your feelings, I apologize, but I tend to say what I think, so just understand that you’re not the only one I’ve offended. Personally though, I think it’s fair to have a debate about something without pulling punches like a wanker if it’s something you feel strongly about.
Anyway, I’m going to clarify things a bit, but only because you clearly have misunderstood what I’m saying, and as a result, it feels to me like you are greatly misrepresenting my viewpoint. For one, I never said that I disagree with aesthetic improvements. All I’m saying I disagree with is this contention that you’re being ripped off and that it would be easy to implement everything YOU want.
Let me put it this way – I suggest that the moving of the mouths is a problem they should address, and in fact it really annoys me, but do I take it further than that and say “why can’t they fix this it would be so easy I feel ripped off by the entire industry?” I mean, what’s the point of taking that extreme view anyway? And moreover, the problem with taking it to that extreme is that you ignore some seriously important realities. The bottom line is that whether there are tens of billions of dollars to throw at the game or not, there is always only going to be a year to complete a project. So the question is, how many people can you throw at the project before it becomes too big for the lead developers and project managers to control? How large is the talent pool of animators, designers, programmers, etc? If you take on less talented people, will that, in turn, turn into less efficiency and poor quality? Moreover, since you are talking about the games industry as a whole, what about the fact that if every games company took this same balls to the wall approach you are suggesting that they would be fighting with eachother for resources (employees) and at some point the bubble would burst… In fact, what I’m saying is that what we see in reality is probably the best that these companies can do in a year, for this, and other reasons. Another aspect of the bigger picture though that you should take into account is that even within one company you have several projects on the go at once. Are you saying that each and every one of these projects should double or triple their output? Now we need ten-twenty times the employees we currently have! As you’ve admitted, we can’t just talk about Konami in a bubble, but you also can’t just talk about PES in a bubble, you have to take into account all of Konami’s projects. So, if you are going to say these things, you have to realize you are talking about a lot bigger changes that, when you really think about them, are pretty massive overhauls of the industry! And why? If you were Konami, would you suddenly decide to increase your workforce by ten to twenty times because somebody complained about lack of “oohs and ahhs” from the crowd in PES in 2013. Certainly they have plans to overhaul the commentary, but it’s just not this year! So do they go crazy because it has to be done this year, and also throw tons of staff at cut-scene animations because that, too, MUST BE DONE NOW? No, they have all these things on their radar, but each year they prioritize based on what they think is important to the majority of fans.
The other thing I want to bring up is that when I sit down with the game, well over 90% of the time I am looking at the pitch and the players on the pitch. Does anybody even watch the opening cutscenes more than once or twice, or maybe just for big matches? So what I’m saying is that no matter how much money and resources they throw at these aspects of the game, they will always be repetitive, and most people will always tend to just skip over them anyway. This is where I think that it’s crazy that you and Lucifer take this to such an extreme, because you have to see the reasoning behind Konami putting these things on the back burner for this year, and also prioritizing them lower on the list than things like shooting, dribbling, animations, player likenesses, goalkeepers, AI, etc. It just makes sense! I mean, what you are talking about is, by definition, superficial stuff, so don’t be surprised when someone like me speaks up and says that I can see why it’s lower priority than gameplay. And again, it is ok to want this stuff improved, I do too, it’s just, do we really need to take this to such extremes? It’s not that I don’t think these things should be improved, but I have a real hard time understanding why someone would fail to see that they are lower priority. They just are. The only argument you can make is that Konami and everyone else in the industry is holding back, ripping us off, etc, but to that I say that if you look at the way they actually operate and think about the fact that you are asking the entire industry to balloon mammothly for something most people don’t really care THAT much about, then I think you can see how this seems to me. It just seems like a little too much, especially since these sorts of changes WILL eventually be implemented. I guess though that somehow I’m just an arrogant egomaniac for having that viewpoint. But you’ve got to admit, at least I can back it up…
OK, points respectfully taken, I still don’t think the improvements overall are significant ones to the game’s whole package on a yearly basis, gameplay included, which is why I question the game’s other aspects being ignored, bearing in mind this demo is still an early build, as a veteran I can appreciate the changes made but still .
The attention to detail on the ball in international matches alone is a big refresher for me this year, from wide cam it looks marvelous in it’s movement, I just truly think these things breath new life into a game which usually looks and sounds very similar every year I honestly wouldn’t mind but it’s baby steps in these departments for me, much of it is recycled from the PS2 era.
I apologize for being a bit of a wanker in my responses.
I’m happy with the demo and what we can expect from the full game and i’ll leave it at that, I’m curious to see how demo #2 will differ.
Peace.
Peace yo… Let’s just enjoy the game, for better or worse I say. Can’t wait til tomorrow night, having some buddies over for a little tourney over a few pints…
Arnookibeast is a knob jockey **** sucker