Now that we’ve had a fair while with the demo, are your opinions on it changing much?
Have you gone from negative to positive, or vice versa?
I’m playing at Top Player level to get a good feel for the game. I’m finding the AI very good at this level. I’ve had plenty of games where I’ve managed to comfortably beat the opposition, and but then once in a while getting tonked properly too.
This week I want to discuss gaming AI in PES. One of the major elements of the game is the AI system.
Programming AI for football games is probably the most challenging tasks in gaming. If you consider FPS games, there is no more intelligence in them. Most single player campaigns are completely on rails, and enemies are just cannon fodder. Occasionally you will get a game that exhibits some form of AI with enemies, but by and large, you’re on your own.
Multiplayer gaming for FPS games means quite simply that AI isn’t even required. It’s all player versus player action.
Football games on the other hand live or die around their AI. Let’s just think about what the AI has to do for a football game. There are two key areas I want to focus on:
1) team-mate AI: The movement and style of your team-mates.
We want to have the ability to not only use standard formations, but to also customise them. Within that, we expect players to overlap positions, make runs ahead of the ball, and generally cause mayhem in the opposition’s half.
2) opposition AI: The CPU controlled opposition react to your game.
We also want the CPU controlled opposition team to counter our team’s CPU controlled movements realistically but not to totally nullify our team’s players. And we also want all this done dynamically, and to not be predictable so that every single game is the same.
Can you guys even begin to imagine how the hell you nail such a concept? We complain when we see the CPU controlled team go through the motions of a counter-attack against you and score. We see it coming and are helpless because it’s “programmed” to score. We even complain that the AI controlled teams rarely pass the ball backwards, or defuse pressure. That they’re a relentless machine that we have to counter.
The big question is – how the hell do you create a system which can do all of this, and then add in the complexity of not only individual players, but teams too? You will notice that certain teams have a noticeable style of play. The fact that there are many levels of AI control routines to implement is incredible in my opinion. Name me another gaming genre that has a greater challenge.
Even with multiplayer games, since we only ever control one player, there’s so much more work to be done to give us a complete experience. When was the last time a cod game ever exhibited intelligence??
So now with that bit of background on AI, how do you feel the PES2013 demo shapes up? We expect the AI to give us a challenging game, but we must remember that playability must remain the core ethos, otherwise no-one will play the game! The game has to appeal to both newcomers as well as veterans of the series.
If you ask me, it’s a phenomenal challenge to take on, and there is so much more work to be done in the football gaming arena to reach the pinnacle of it’s genre. Both FIFA and PES are getting there in these terms. They both excell and have deficiencies in areas. The cynics amongst us will say that they do their best to drag it out over the years. The reality is that there are so many challenges to overcome.
For argument’s sake – if a truly manual passing system was introduced and it was unplayably hard, but realistic – how many people would ditch the game? So compromises are made to try to reach a middle ground. I can see how Konami must be walking a tightrope with many of these key issues. You’ve got people like me who want more manual control over play to get a more authentic experience. But just how many more people would enjoy the itricacies of having to measure every single pass, and expertly cushion every single ball when receiving it? Admittedly I think a good few people would like this sort of hardcore experience. But there are plenty more who don’t want to have to go that far.
It could be argued that the more accurate simulation could be deemed to be just plain boring, compared to a more action-oriented equivalent. Who’d rather play the ARMA shooter series over a COD-fest? These are the challenges which must be addressed by Konami. You have the hardcore element forever asking for the boundaries to be pushed out. Yet accessibility must remain, otherwise you alienate.
Take the passing assistance meter for example. In theory you can have fully assisted passing where plenty of correction takes place to intended passes. The problem here is when you have passes which are not going where you intended. Then you have the more allegedly accurate manual passing (which for me doesn’t go far enough) which is unpredictable in my books. Add to that there not being much to be gained from going manual – it’s almost worth asking – what’s the point? Why not just refine a single passing mechanism and rely on your skill with them? After all we have the whole issue of settings when in online games which causes arguments between players. In many players eyes, if you’re not passing manually then you’re not a proper player.
Where do you guys stand on the passing issue? Views and opinions welcome as usual.
Thanks for reading.
Dougiedonut
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but
but abdalh
foot ball
Hi guys, is there a fantasy football league running this year on here, and if so what is the league code?
Manual is the way to go. I really miss how games used to be about getting good at something. Nowadays its more about the console doing the work for you.
In my opinion, its a depressing state of affairs.
@StephenDedalus1
Really? Let me help you a bit here with some definitions
en·hance (n-hns)
1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.
2. To provide with improved, advanced, or sophisticated features:
prog·ress (prgrs, -rs, prgrs)
n.
1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
2. Development or growth: students who show progress.
3. Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress. See Synonyms at development.
1. To advance; proceed: Work on the new building progressed at a rapid rate.
2. To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily: as medical technology progresses.
3. To increase in scope or severity, as a disease taking an unfavorable course.
Now, are those two definitions them same? You need to read more bro.
“Additionally, does it really matter, when you get down to it, if another game does it? the whole name and kit thing? I guess it does if you’re looking at it from a business/market share perspective, but from a consumer’s perspective?”
Maybe you have been locked away in a cave for the past 4 or 5 years but…..it does matter.
Fifa is kicking PES as 25 to 1 in sales …..do you think that the kits and names might be a factor here?
Business/Market share ???? …are you ****ing kidding me. How old are you?
facepalm
@ Ockrass
When you put both words side by side they’re somewhat different, but when you use them in the context you used them in, such as to provide something with “more” better, improved features, well, that’s what I’d call or define the sought-after progress in the field you’re talking about, no? I don’t think you understand what I’m saying about your usage (citing O.E.D. or Webster’s won’t tell you how to pick the best and most clear words to use to express yourself. You’ve got to pause and think for that) I only thought you could have typed “progress” or just “enhance”, that’s all, and you would’ve gotten across your point without confusing anal retentive folks like me. Oh, and please make an anal joke; maybe about how gay I sound, or something.
In regards to part II of your “facepalm” (or whatever knee-slapping virtual/physical assault thing you’d like to type on that seemingly abused keyboard), you are correct, the name/kit thing does matter. I only believe it’s an aesthetic (if you need to look this up, I’m using the word solely in the “pleasing appearance” kind of way. It may not be the first listing) thing for consumers, a selling point, and that that’s why it should matter most to those marketing the game. However, I believe PES could and should focus on other “selling points”, or another “experience” that would attract people to their game.
(kindly extends hand for a shake but, just before contact, retracts and rubs back greased hair)
Ockrass
Zelda skyward sword on the wii towers above any other western developed game on the market in terms of gameplay and pure immersion.It uses a tweaked version of the original ocarina of time engine from the n64 era.
Fifa for example while techy doesn’t push the gameplay envelope on from the days of the ps2 era.
If konami had just built and refined what they had in 2008 rather then going in a different direction every year who knows where pes would be now.Its all ea have done this gen just refine the same game and engine.
Thankfully pes12 is a extension of pes11…more refined,more polish…if konami can manage to replicate this with a newer engine,freeing the game up even further then who knows the potential is explode.
Bottom line,pes12 better replicates the freedom of iss on the n64 better then pes on the ps2 ever did.
FIfa raised the bar,and now finally pes is moving away from the restrictions of 8-axis d-pad control and a game that renders you a passenger making decisions totally based on stats.
I welcome more free-form gameplay,it’s what iss and perfect striker had on the n64 and it’s been sadly missing for over 12 years.
SweetDIsposition
I wish I had a comeback argument ….but unfortunately you make sense in the post above. I agree with your statement about free form game play.
Both titles suffer from poor design in terms of AI an free form game play. Even though both titles boast manual controls ….it is evident that the game engine still controls the outcome in most situations.
Hopefully, we will see improvements in both games this year.
The question which has still never been answered by anyone as far as I know in all this discussion about manual gameplay, is how the stats will still be relevant. I would love to hear a discussion on this. Again, the key question is if the passing is fully manual, then why would I buy Xavi to run my midfield if any player can pass the same? Since there has been no answer to me means that it’s a very valid question, and yet people continue to talk about manual as if it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Let’s not ignore the downside…
I fail to see how an introduction of a truly manual system eliminates player individuality. Just because you are aiming somewhere doesn’t mean that the ball will automatically go there. Other factors including, pace, pressure, foot, awareness, time on ball etc, can all still be factored into determine the actual place of the pass.
Why would not the same factors that are present now still be present when a truly manual system is introduced?
Dave O
QUOTE
The question which has still never been answered by anyone as far as I know in all this discussion about manual gameplay, is how the stats will still be relevant. I would love to hear a discussion on this. Again, the key question is if the passing is fully manual, then why would I buy Xavi to run my midfield if any player can pass the same? Since there has been no answer to me means that it’s a very valid question, and yet people continue to talk about manual as if it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Let’s not ignore the downside…
RESPONSE
Dave O, the whole notion of “manual gameplay” is just an incredibly popular misconception: what does “manual gameplay” even means?
Consider this (if you want to answer that last question): if you do not need Xavi because any player can pass the same…. then…. how many stats are determining how the system itself works? and therefore, how does it qualify as “manual control” when the system does not offer the many many statistical differences that are necessary in order to implement “real manual control” into the game?
You can have the most advanced engine, but that does not change the fact that a human being has ten fingers, and it certainly does not change the fact that the game controller is designed for human beings; if all the players pass, dribble, tackle, the same exact way, this means that since the controller is only capable of so much, and since all the players are a product of the very same “universal” mold, that as a result you would not have any type of “manual control” over any aspect of the game, due to the fact that the complete absence of individuality amongst the players would create an offensively predictable pattern for a script that would, inevitably, predetermine everything you do to the point that it would feel even more assisted than what we currently have, reducing the variety of things that you can do on the pitch (due to the fact that the game controller would work around one type or one model of individual, therefore reducing the amount of things that could be possible if the controller was employed differently depending on the type of player, therefore maximizing the total amount of things that can be done on the pitch) and therefore also reducing the freedom that the game offers, begging the question: is it “manual” to begin with?
Manual control should mean more control and more variety, as opposed to less variety and less control. The notion of “manual control” is greatly misunderstood by the vast majority of the consumers, there is absolutely no “downside” to manual control, manual control has no real negatives objectively speaking. If you fear that “increased manual control” leads to “diminished player individuality”, then you are missing the point: the “player individuality” aspect of the game is determined by stats, why should the execution of the game control-wise, have any effect on the player individuality aka the stats?
The PS2 versions of PES were based around an eight directional d-pad, and an eight directional d-pad can only take a very limited number of stats into account: how many stats have been added since the PS2 versions of PES?
The left analog stick has a range of movement within each direction that it offers: as far towards the south as it can go, slightly towards the south, middle ground within the south direction, etc. Have we seen any change in the statistics that can serve as evidence of the game moving on from a d-pad system to an analog system?
As far as I’m concerned, we do not have a stat for “movement within space” in order to determine the range of dribbling directions that a player has, we do not have a stat for “accuracy within space” in order to determine the accuracy of dribbling irrespective of the mobility that the player has, we do not have a stat for “movement through space” in order to determine the range of mobility when running at the opponent (as opposed to shielding the ball from the opponent), we do not have stats that would increase the player individuality into incredible levels of detail and precision, because “the game still runs on rails” because of course it will, since the game still works around the same old d-pad system.
** Range of directions (south, south-east, south-west, etc): “movement within space”
** Range of movement within the direction (slightly towards the south, as far towards the south as it can go, middle ground within the given direction, etc): “accuracy within space”
Of course, with the d-pad system that both PES12 and FIFA12 still use, a statistic for “movement within space” and another statistic for “accuracy within space” would have no significance because the system itself is a d-pad system, which means that, since the d-pad does not have a range of movement within the direction (cannot be directed slightly nor dramatically towards a given direction), a d-pad system cannot offer the grand level of player individuality that analog control can offer.
So going back to that question: if the “player individuality” aspect of the game is determined by stats, why should the execution of the game control-wise, have any effect on the player individuality aka the stats?
An update control-wise, does not undo the foundation of the game which has been tweaked and re-tweaked for over a decade. What we have seen in this gen of consoles, is how ES Sport’s usage of the left analog stick has exposed the weaknesses of the classic eight directional d-pad system: the left analog stick is not really used as an analog, but instead, used as a 360 degree d-pad.
That’s where the misconception about “manual control” comes from, because people automatically associate “manual control” with the analog buttons, without realizing that the left analog stick is not used as an actual analog, but instead used as a 360 degree d-pad; and what can the d-pad not offer? It doesn’t matter how many directions of movement the d-pad can offer, at the end of the day, even a 360 degree d-pad is incapable of offering a range of movement per direction.
So if the good old system is based around an eight directional button with absolutely no depth, should we expect “reduced” player individuality simply because we added more “manual control” into the same old d-pad system?
Again, that’s where the misconception about “manual control” comes from, you cannot have anything close to “manual control” when the video game still revolves around d-pad mechanics: no range of movement per direction, no manual control. At the end of the day, adding more directions to the same old d-pad system does not qualifies as “manual control” and it certainly does not mean that “player individuality” was reduced, it only means that the good old “player individuality” was exposed for what it always was, an incredibly shallow system that would never stand the test of time.
What we have seen in this gen of consoles, is not that “manual gameplay” has been detrimental to the good old “player individuality”, but instead, that the good old player individuality was not that good to begin with. And back to the question: should an advancement control-wise, have any effect on the player individuality aka the stats?
Well, I think that arguing that “manual control reduces the player individuality” is similar to arguing that “better more objective journalism is more depressing than the easy-to-swallow fiction that I like to hear”, in that “better more objective journalism” does not reduces “the easy-to-swallow fiction” that *name person here* likes to hear, but merely exposes the propaganda for what it really is.
I mean, if you personally prefer the d-pad for whatever the reason, fair enough, but do not condemn “manual control” simply because you fail to see that what you describe as “manual control” did not reduced the player individuality (that we all agree is essential to the game), but merely exposed how shallow the good old d-pad system actually is, you need to understand, that there is nothing subjective about progress, at least not in this specific case.
At the end of the day, an analog system, the same as a d-pad system, can offer numerous levels of assistance, ranging from “manual control” to “super assisted”, the assistance settings having no effect on the stats system nor on the foundation of the game (since the assistance settings are mere “additions” to the game and therefore cannot undo nor “reduce” the very foundation of the game), and of course, most importantly, analog control can offer both manual control as well as assisted control, something that the d-pad cannot do.
@ GEE, Amateur – Firstly, I want to clarify that I am not trying to argue about this point at all. I’m simply trying to understand. I have read all of the above carefully, and I appreciate all the effort it took to try to explain things, but I still am not any clearer on my question. Amateur, I am really glad that you say that we “all want player individuality” but I also hope that you can see exactly where I’m coming from with this question. Gee, I see you don’t seem to understand what the big deal is, so maybe it’s best if I explain using an example. Bear with me…
If I want to pass the ball through the middle of two defenders to my striker who has made a great run (onside of course) there are two ways, essentially, that I can do this as I see it (two ways to simulate this). 1) as a player I aim with the analog stick (forget about the d pad, even I have moved on from that, ha ha!) and the direction I aim is roughly in the general direction of the player I want to pass to. It may not be perfectly aimed by me as a player, but it is aimed with enough precision that the CPU knows I want to pass to the striker, as opposed to elsewhere (another player, say, on the wing). In this scenario, if the player I am controlling has high pass acc, teamwork, etc, then there is a good chance of the ball making it through. Success, however, also depends greatly on my body position, and the precise timing of the pass (so there is some skill involved even with this scheme, contrary to what some may think). This is essentially what we have now of course…
The other scenario is what I personally call manual, and I understand that this may not be “true manual” but let’s not split hairs if we can avoid it over simple terminology, especially because the majority of people who refer to manual are referring to this scheme (2), in which the player with the ball aims with precision and tries to pass “into space” as opposed to passing to a player specifically. Another way of explaining it would be to say that in this scheme the number of possible passing directions (not to mention pace) is almost limitless, and controlled entirely by the user’s input on the controller.
So my questions are simple: Aside from “semi-assisted manual” is there another scenario which I am failing to understand? If so, please explain it to me. As you can surely understand, if the above two schemes are the only ones I can see possible, then obviously the problem arises that if Konami go for scheme #2, full manual, then the stats truly would no longer matter. If that still is difficult to grasp for some reason, I ask you to try to imagine a system in which all the control over passing direction and pace is determined entirely by the user. By definition that system would negate the importance of the pass accuracy stat entirely. Anyway, just to keep things focussed, please try to address this first – i.e. the first question is, can you see what I’m saying about this system? If you can see it, then the next step would be to differentiate how what you are proposing is different exactly. Also, try not to bring in dribbling if possible, just to make things simple for me to understand…
Thanks
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@ Seun – Dude, what are you talking about? Are you saying you created players in PES 2012 that we can buy? If so, how? I personally don’t believe it. Nobody has your email either by the way.
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