Introduction
Thanks to Steve Merrett and Jon Murphy, myself and Ian of soccergaming.com attended what was the first play test of the latest cut of PES 2011 code on the 23rd of July. Unlike last year, I wasn’t like a child in a sweet shop, but had a more focussed look at the game. I will talk very little about the game’s graphics as they don’t primarily interest me. The game was not locked down to a couple of modes but was presented pretty much as we will see the finished product. So there was a lot to potentially cover, but I tried to stick to the core areas of the game, so apologies if I haven’t mentioned areas such as editing goal nets – I simply didn’t delve into fringe areas as much. There wasn’t enough time to cover the revamped Master League or Become a Legend. What I can mention is that the BAL mode now has changed to allow you to play as any outfield player.
The format of this write up will be to try to cover what I consider key areas which will be of interest to everyone, followed by a summary on the game overall. So without further ado, here goes.
PES 2011: The breakdown
Animations
During game play whilst playing I didn’t notice the animations all that much. By that I mean that I was concentrating on moving the ball about and working players into positions to receive the ball. Not once did I look at a piece of play and think that a player just performed a completely unnatural move. There are occasions in the current game where you think that some shots would require a double-jointed hip to perform them.
Even at this stage of development that wasn’t something that we thought. The animation set even at this stage was very impressive. There are evidently more animation styles for all sorts of actions, and I’m sure more will be added up to the final release, and we should see more variety in how players move, pass and generally run about on a pitch. There were no lag issues, or concerns on how players carried out certainly actions like running and dribbling. Get ready for a proper animation reboot!
Passing
The passing system has been revamped without a shadow of a doubt. You will need to spend time learning to master it to actually stand out as a player. It is easy to string passes together, as even lightly tapping the pass button will deliver the ball to the feet of the player you choose to pass it to when in close proximity. But if you don’t aim at the player you intend, then expect the ball to be there to be won by both sides.
There is a fair element of CPU assistance with passes with a healthy respect. I think there was always going to have to be a compromise to ensure the game is still accessible for all.
The basic passing system can be mastered easily enough, but you will need to learn how to add strength to passes when looking to play clever balls for players to run onto, or to break through defences.
Something that I was trying desperately to see was whether players waited for a pass to be delivered to them, and to see if they remained rooted to the spot until the ball arrived to them. But that didn’t really happen. Players tended to move towards the ball on occasion, or the ball arrived quickly to their feet since most short balls played to players didn’t give them much of a chance to run towards the ball. But the frustrations of having a player rooted to the spot didn’t materialise for me.
The pass power bar is a very natural addition to the game and doesn’t detract from the experience. You will find that passes are quite easily over hit if you’re not careful, so timing is everything.
Finally I am able to say that whilst playing PES, that when mistakes are made – be they rash tackles or passes gone wrong – that I am the one who is at fault. I can’t blame the AI for my mistakes. The CPU facilitates my intentions as a player, it doesn’t dictate them. This is a ground-breaking and fantastic new ethos for PES. Play the game your way. So when things go wrong, you need to take a look in the mirror rather than hitting forums and complaining about Konami’s game. So if you can’t handle the truth, I would suggest playing lesser games that are more accommodating of your ego. PES has finally grown up and will take you kicking and screaming into the future direction that has just had it’s foundations defined.
Manual passing
I believe manual passing is no longer mapped to the right analogue stick, but will require the use of either L2 or R2, sorry but I can’t remember properly right now. To be fair, I didn’t really try to use manual passing since the standard passing mechanism was very open and allowed for a good amount of freedom of direction for placing passes. As I’ve said above, I had to at times check where the passes were being played, since I would misplace passes due to falling back to old habits where the CPU would facilitate our intentions for passes.
Heading
There is now a power bar for headers, so you can expect to put timing and the power bar to good use. Once again, if you don’t practice these skills, expect players who have to out play you.
I didn’t get too many opportunities to head the ball, but using the power did give more beef to headers.
They didn’t feel too different from the current game either I have to say.
Crossing
Crossing is pretty much the same as it currently is, with double-taps of the cross button giving decent head height for crosses.
Something I’d like to see is more variation in crossing strength. Currently the crossing strength is fairly uniform. Having the ability to ping a cross at head height at the same strength as a shot would be great. It would bring a new element to attacking play. You would then need to try a deft flick with your head to guide the ball in a given direction making use of the power that is in the cross. But this would be an enhancement to the game, it’s not a defect of the current game!
Shooting
Shooting felt as responsive and natural as ever. It has always been a strong point of the series, and continues with that tradition. I found shots taken to be satisfying, and also responsive to body positions, and the favoured foot of players. I had a good few shots hitting the cross bar which was also good to see. The variety of shots was also pleasing. With the new abilities to perform tricks, and in particular either rainbow flicks, or just standard flicks ahead of your player can set up volleys very nicely. Shots from outside the area were also a potent weapon with the right players.
Long balls
Long balls aren’t an area of the game that I personally use all that much. I’ve never been comfortable with passes being cut out easily since players can practically walk across to where you’re playing the ball and win the ball.
But with the new power bar there is more variation on how they are delivered. I found that where previously playing a long ball would most often find it’s intended target, over hitting long balls now really do open up the game play a bit more. You may find the ball out of play, or find yourself running further to try to get to it. But that’s also indicative of the overall challenge that this new iteration of the game brings with it. Expect to have to learn how to play long balls to add another dimension to your game.
Physical play
As we all know, currently in the game, players whilst apparently jostling for the ball look like they’re holding hands and happily running alongside each other, with no real bearing on the physical battle which is meant to be taking place.
Those days are gone. Players now have a physical presence that you are made aware of immediately. You will find that if you just run into a opposition player that there will be contact, and more than likely a free kick to your opponent will ensue.
Lighter players will have to rely on guile and quick play, rather than trying to take on an opponent in a physical challenge. And equally, stronger players will stand a better chance of coming away with the ball after a tussle. Players bounce off one another when they come together, and it really does make you feel like you’re in a battle. You’ve got to earn your right to play your football every step of the way.
Having just completed a 5 hour play test, I’ve come away exhausted mentally. You can’t relax and just pass your way into the penalty area and score. You’ve got to battle all the way, and make those chances for your players. They won’t just appear there for you.
Goalkeepers
Goalkeepers were generally pretty good. They are functionally the same as they currently are, perhaps with a few more animations for saves. I have to admit that I’m not particularly good at spotting issues with keepers which many of you tend to have. My main gripe with keepers is the fundamental lack of speed of reaction when they’ve broken up play and are in possession of the ball. It takes a relative eternity to get them to spring a counter attack. I will discuss keepers in a bit more detail in the “Improvements Needed” section further down.
Referees
I didn’t notice the referees in the game, which is a compliment to them, as they called play very well. Niggly fouls as well as blatant fouls were all noticed, and dealt with. How pleased I was to have given away a few penalties through stupidity against my fellow play tester for the day Ian.
He was very grateful for having them, and there were no complaints from me. They were all legitimate fouls and I had it coming. Referees weren’t overly harsh unnecessarily. I had one red card for two yellows in a game, and I had no complaints. No random red card for a standard side on challenge, which can happen in the current version of the game. I understand that the referees are still undergoing tweaks to their play yet, so expect more refinements to come.
Tricks
The new control system means that tricks have to be pulled by use of the L2 button with the right analogue stick. There are a set of predefined tricks that can be pulled, but the really fantastic new addition is the ability to map available tricks to the right analogue stick and use the ones that you feel best reflect how you play the game. However, I have to confess that having mapped some key skills I couldn’t execute them! I am very confident that this was user error rather than the game not responding to what I was doing. Given the priorities of the play test I didn’t really pursue this issue further. Even if it is broken, it will most definitely be fixed but it’s not a concern at all. I will if anything seek clarification officially shortly to confirm I’m the idiot!
Even with the default tricks combinations which can be used in the game, I felt that the trick stick as such was more naturally in tune with the game play. Tricks are pulled off by pressing L2 with the right analogue stick in various combinations which once learnt should allow players of greater skill to find additional ways to get past their marker to open up opportunities to make a breakthrough in piercing defences.
A couple of tricks I was beginning to master was the ability to just either flick the ball ahead of yourself, or a rainbow flick to create space. I used Aimar whilst playing with Benfica to do a rainbow flick past a player in midfield just to the right of the box, and then volleyed the ball towards the left corner, with the ball just going over. It would have been a contender for goal of the season had it gone in. But the move certainly stuck in my memory, and that’s a great sign.
On reflection I am concerned that skilled players will perfect a series of tricks which may become very hard to defend against, and could possibly lead to them handing out thrashings. But since I’ve not had enough time to learn and apply, this may just be nothing. But now that tricks can be mapped, and combinations carried out, you could find yourself regularly beaten without means to cancel them out. But only further play tests with skilled players trying this out will give us more information on whether this could turn into an achille’s heel.
Defending
I mostly used the traditional method of defending in PES which was a combination of timing lunges or slide tackles, or trying to put a foot in at the right time to win the ball. These are the tried and tested methods to dispossess opponents. The new addition to defending is the ability to jockey attacking players to either take them on to their weaker side, or to allow your team to catch up with play and get back into position.
In reality for me it was hard work trying to get my defenders to jockey attackers. To jockey you have to press the “X” button (I can’t remember the equivalent button on the 360 controller) and press the control stick towards your goal. So you’re pretty much trying to run backwards effectively. What happened for me was that as I was trying to get myself into a position to jockey, attackers spotted gaping spaces ahead of them as I’d typically be just to their left trying to jockey, and they’d just go into the space on their right and burst through on goal to shoot and inevitably score past me.
So I think this is a skill I am going to have to go into training mode to perfect before trying to do that again. Till then I would prefer to rely on brute strength and timing of defenders to win the ball back.
I tried several times to sit back and watch another player take on the CPU in games and to get a feel for movement of AI controlled players. I have to say that generally they ebbed and flowed with the moves pretty realistically. You didn’t get clumps of players hunting down a single player leaving masses of space for other attackers to exploit. I found the defender closest to the ball closing down the man on the ball, and various other players almost trying to anticipate where the ball would be played to try to help out.
Super players
During the play test we attempted to see how good the game’s superstars were.
So this included trying to take on teams with Messi and see if he could waltz through the whole team and score. But this proved harder that we thought. Basically, if I was to ask you how you would stop Messi from wreaking devastation and havoc on your team, you would have to say that as in real life, the way to do this is to close down his space. And that is the case in the game. With the game’s physicality being a core element to dribbling and taking on players, I found that closing Messi down with a second defender, and applying pressure on him worked quite often. It’s fair to say that if you give a player space, or let them create space, then they can punish you for it. They won’t always create a scoring chance, or actually score, but the threat of creating space remains – much like the real game.
A side effect of applying physical pressure on attacking players does run the risk of giving away free kicks, which as with the real game is a strategy that you have to learn to cope with.
Menus systems
The game now has a pretty slick modern interface that has clearly been well thought out. It’s refreshing, and user interaction has clearly been central to it.
When in the formations screen, you can move players around in your chosen formation to further customise them. If you click on a player on the team, you will get players who could potentially play in the same position on the bench highlighted. It’s a very simple but brilliant way of helping you to chop and change players. You are therefore more able to tinker prior to playing the game. I didn’t explore all possibilities with the interface due to time constraints, but what little I did explore was very simple to navigate through and use. It’s going to set the standard for team management and general interaction with the game. Going back to the current traditional methods of managing teams is going to be a step into the dark ages.
PES Shop
PES Shop is back! Konami have scored a bit hit in my eyes with this inclusion which will be welcomed by many. I had a quick flick through the shop, and there were all sorts of things to buy with PES credits.
I won’t go into what they were – you guys have to have some surprises if you ask me!
Stadium editor
I’ve a newsflash for you guys: there is no stadium editor in the game. This is because there is a Stadium creator!! It’s bloody brilliant too!
You will be able to pretty much create a stadium however you like, with options to customise the stands, the pitch, the surroundings and various other aspects of the stadium.
General Editing
Editing was enabled for the usual suspects such as players, teams etc, as well as stadiums – and before some of you ask I didn’t notice a net editor. I didn’t explore this area all that much.
Camera angles
There are no new camera angles in the game. All the default camera angles are there.
What has been introduced is a wonderfully subtle camera tilt function to existing action. I only played in wide camera, which starts with a close up of the kick off, but then the camera pans out to reveal more of the pitch in the way we’re used to, and it really does add a natural and broadcast like element to the view. It’s very nice to see, although personally I would have preferred to have seen either more camera angles, addition zoom meters for all existing camera angles, or a custom camera angle setting ability. But that’s just my preference, I’m not sure how many other people would appreciate this ability.
Licensing
The list of officially licensed teams has changed. Liverpool have lost their official license in the game. It’s like the cloud that is currently over Anfield has spread to PES also. But that’s just a minor issue, since we have various editing champions in our PES communities who as ever take pleasure and pride in providing official strips for all premiership teams. We haven’t been told who the second premiership team is yet, but I’d guess at it being City – so time will tell.
And obviously everyone knows about the Copa Libertadores Licensing.
Game Speeds
A new addition to the game is the ability to change the game speed. This should finally please everyone that has always complained that the speed is either too fast or slow for their liking. You can now find the right speed for your type of play. There are five settings ranging from -2 to 2. The default speed is 0 which I have to say was the speed I was most comfortable with. Slowing the play to -2 felt like the players were running in treacle for me, and equally they were super fast with +2 game speed. But at least there is now an option to change it to your liking, so another big plus for the game.
Negatives
This section is dedicated to what I consider to be the current flaws in the game. There is still time to fix them, and part of my role is to highlight these issues for the benefit of the game.
- Couldn’t play a ball too short to near team mates – the ball always reached it’s intended target if played directly to a player or was typically over hit.
- Keepers – they are still the same as now– and do not have total control. This was very disappointing to see.
- Keeper as ever can only pass to the nearest player from goal kicks. This is plain shocking and lazy.
- Goal kicks do not have power bars.
- When kicking the ball out during open play, there is no power bar.
- Keepers are frustratingly slow when they have broken up an attack. They really don’t start off counter attacks quickly. Defenders don’t try to make themselves available to receive the ball early and to go on an attack.
- Defending – not sure about the jockeying option for defenders. Either I was unable to execute the option properly, or it didn’t work in the build. When I tried, attackers could just waltz past my player and bury the ball in the back of the net. Further play testing will determine whether this is a fair comment or not. I’ll happily retract it if it is.
- Stamina bar is green against green pitches – needs to be a different colour – red??
Positives
- Animations are superb. Very fluid and realistic. There are many animations for different running, passing, tackling, falling and diving styles.
- Passing is now a beast of an option. It’s assisted passing, not totally free, but that’s not a bad thing. There was always going to be a compromise, as new/casual players must be catered for.If people struggled to string a couple of passes together, then they would stop playing – pure and simple. That said, expect possession football to be a luxury afforded to the very competent amongst you. Yes you can start off passing a few balls to players with little to no opposition pressure, but as soon as they press, expect a battle to keep the ball.
- We had many midfield tussles in games which were very challenging. If you want to keep the ball you have to earn that right. For the first time in years, players will find that they are going to have to consult the user guide. I would recommend spending time on the training ground straight away to learn how to play football.
- I was immediately comfortable with the basic control system when I picked up the controller.
- The graphics for me weren’t too much of a notch up on the current graphics – but that’s a good thing in my books. Graphics are a secondary consideration for me, so I won’t really say much about them.
- The build was at around the 70% mark, so it was a more recent build than has been reported on already. Even at this stage the overall look and the feel of the game is impressive. Only on the odd occasion did the animations look a little funny. This materialised primarily when trying to string trick combinations together, rather than through regular passing, running and shooting.
- Droney chants weren’t present in the build, but there’s no guarantee they won’t return!
Improvements needed
Please note this section is dedicated to apsects of the gameplay which I feel could have been further enhanced this year. Given the more than apparent time and attention that has been lavished on the new game, it would be unfair to mark the game down with the features I’m highlighting, but I’ll still be passing this on to Konami in the hope that something may just creep into the game, though at this late stage, this is not very likely. If anything, it could serve as the initial ideas list for PES2012.
Crowds
Having the crowds quieter during play until either crunching tackles are made, or attacks build, resulting in an effort on goal, along with appropriate shouts of “ooh” for near misses etc.
Or booing,etc, especially for away players who may have made dirty tackles or been booked. It would really add to the game’s charm.
Passes
Having to set the correct amount of power for even short passes would be a great addition, since it would mean you have to constantly pay attention to what you are doing. Any complacency would mean that the pass is intercepted and could catch your team out, and pay the price with conceding a goal.
As it stands, you do need to ensure you not only play the ball in the right desired direction, as well as to put enough power on the ball, so as not to over hit it, but as I said under hitting the ball isn’t an issue – but should be! Perhaps having an option to switch off semi-assisted passing to full manual control is the way forward. This would allow the hardcore fans to have total control over their game, which many would welcome.
Having a new ability for passing
Pressing R2 whilst playing a ground pass or high pass, should bend the ball with the player’s favoured foot.
It can then be used to play balls around opponents for team mates to run on to better.
Manual ball control
Manually trapping balls when receiving the ball is a massive missed opportunity to declare PES’ authority as THE game of today. As it stands, both games will more than likely appear to be pretty similar, with perhaps online play being the key differentiator, putting the ball firmly in FIFA’s court, given the concerns we generally have about PES’ online pedigree. Had the ability to choose when to trap the ball or to choose to flick it on would have really opened up the game play and make it so much more realistic. When stamina gauges drop, attempting to trap the ball would result in ball control not being as good, which would leave the players with choices to make. They would either have to ensure there was enough space to attempt to control the ball, or otherwise have to kick it on first time. They could also think about subbing these players if possible to bring on fresh legs. This would have really been a cutting edge addition to game play that would have had people raving about it.
Goalkeepers
Having 100% control over keepers is crucial. Keepers are an integral part of the game and have been marginalised in the game for years. It will be criminal if they aren’t upgraded properly now.
For goal kicks keepers should be able to kick the ball anywhere on the pitch, based on their ratings.
If they can kick it very far, then they should be able to launch the ball in the direction you choose to play it.
When keepers break up attacks and are in possession of the ball, we should be able to throw the ball out immediately using either underarm or overarm throws to get the ball where they want to in conjunction with a power bar. We should have new control options to be able to throw the ball out as we see fit. Keeper statistics should define their abilities. Reina should be razor sharp at starting counter attacks for example. Engineered for Freedom has to apply to keepers just as much as outfield players.
Crosses
Having more control over crosses is desperately needed in my opinion. We currently have the same crossing model as has been used for years. Choosing when to get a cross in, along with the power and speed are the key ingredients for making crosses. Currently the format for crossing is the same. We can’t vary the types of crosses all that much. Yes there are the single/double/triple taps for crossing, but there isn’t an ability to float a ball in for a tall attacker to try to nod on, or to positively fizz a ball across the area to really mix up play.
Some crosses in real games are whipped in and either curling away or towards the keeper, which should give players decisions to make. Being around the area or cutting into the area and then curling either low balls, or chest height or head height balls should all be possible. Defenders having to lunge in to cut a ball out that is whipped in low and towards the back post should have them trying to push the ball away from the goal, and we know how that can go very wrong.
Crosses using R2 to add curl would be fantastic too. If you have a player with exceptional crossing abilities or with the time to cross, then R2 with the circle button could give some whipped in crosses which could cause defensive problems. Again this would have really set PES apart from the competition.
Headers
More control over the types of headers to try is needed. Subtle flicks, powerful headers, downward headers, upward headers etc should all be selectable, not randomly applied.
Allowing players to build up speed to get a running jump at heading the ball must be added. This is how players score from corners, as opposed to standing jumps on balls delivered in.
Give us freedom for headers – freedom is the key concept but isn’t applied enough to warrant the tag.
Throw-ins
Having ball boys throwing the ball back to the thrower immediately allowing for the game’s fluid nature to continue would be brilliant. This would mean that if you got a throw-in in an advantageous position, where players are out of position for example, you could punish them.
Online
We need to provide groupings of teams to allow people to avoid having to play against the very best teams when they play against opponents. Many of us are fed up of constantly having to face the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid and other very strong teams. If we had a mode which didn’t feature certain teams, such as a category which was for non Champion’s League teams, then it would mean people had fairer games against other people with like teams.
Please bring back a quick menu option to play one versus one friendly games without having to set up game rooms. The PES6 online menu system was fantastic – some elements from it would really be appreciated.
Summary
Well I’ve tried to provide a frank overview of the game as I saw it. Yes there are areas which could do with improvements, but as it stands, bar keepers and referee tweaking, I’d happily take the game as it is. We’ve got a solid foundation for the PES of the future now. I have already been formulating ideas for PES2012 which can surely build on PES2011.
I can honestly say that during play I felt that if the game code I tried was the final code, then I’d happily take it right now. This may still be my emotional inference on how the game felt, but over the course of the five hours I managed to get playing the game, there was a lot to take in, and to savour. I’m sure that another fifteen to twenty hours of solid play testing would uncover more issues and delights too, but that’s not a luxury afforded to myself. I have mentioned to Konami previously that the official testers mustn’t get complacent as they have in previous years, since there is so much riding on this version of the game for many people.
So far, Konami have done a fantastic job, and with a few more tweaks and improvements built in, we will have a stonking game very, very soon. Looking back to the games played, there were times of intense game play, battling and missed chances, as well as a few well taken goals. Fist pumping celebrations and holding my head in disbelief at chances missed or games thrown away were sure signs that the emotions that PES used to draw from us is back again.
If we can kick up enough fuss in comments to this article and the many other play tests on other sites, then we can hopefully show Konami that the improvements we are suggesting really must be addressed to elicit our full support.
We’re so very close to getting a game that is finally worthy of the current generation of consoles, and Konami just need to keep pushing forward to ensure everyone is raving about the game.
For the record, we were unable to test the game’s online abilities in any shape or form. I have been told that online testing is and will take place with wider forums, as they do understand that this is a crucial area of the game. I took the opportunity to further express that online play will be a massive factor for most gamers, so it has to deliver 100%. I will be looking forward to my invite to perform online testing, and will be eagerly waiting to report how that went when the time comes.
Given the amount of work that has gone into PES2011, I think I am quietly confident that online play will not be neglected. It’s too important to be glossed over, but then we’ve been stung many times before. For now, I would ask you all to keep the faith, Konami will deliver. Equally feel free as ever to hit home the message about the fact that online play will overshadow game play improvements, since there is a competitor that is delivering on both game play as well as with online play. Many of us have been left disenchanted with the online side of the game, and nothing less than a working solution will be acceptable to many of us, myself included.
Getting back to the game, when some goals were scored, the old “get in there” feeling, and fist pumping celebrations were bandied about. That’s a massive compliment to the game as it is.
We had some intense 0-0 games, and the odd goal winning some games, and only one 4-0 win to brag about. We played on Top Player level to test the AI, and found that it did provide a challenge.
I am confident that the minor issues that remain in the current game play mechanics will be ironed out for the final release. Konami are working extremely hard on getting this edition of the game right, and having had the pleasure of the play test, I can assure you guys that there is most definitely going to be a lot of happy PES players in a matter of less than three months. My key reservation is solely around online play.
We’ve had plenty of stick bandied about from people in the past about how optimistic us PES sites get over PES, only to find ourselves disappointed. Well not this time. Anyone who has played it will be raving about the game. I challenge you to find a major gaming site that is panning it, or writing it off. Prepare for the game that we all knew Konami were capable of delivering.
I refuse to accept or hear the old argument fans have presented that Konami don’t listen to the fans. I said from the outset of PES2010 being created, that we needed to give Konami two years to truly incorporate our ideas into the series, and this perseverance on our part is about to be repaid and then some.
With more news and further refinements to follow for further play tests, these are exciting times to be a fan of the Pro Evolution Soccer series. Given how it felt to play the game, I think the name should change to Pro Emotional Soccer, since you’ll be going through a series of emotions – the elation of key wins, and going back to the drawing board when you’re soundly beaten.
PES has grown up and taken on a new persona, the real question now is, have you grown up sufficiently to get the most out of the new game?
Thanks for reading.
Dougiedonut
P.S.
You can check out my co-play tester Ian Holme’s impressions on the game at:
http://www.soccergaming.com/pro-evo/1136/pro-evo-2011-soccergaming-playtest/
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fu ck! the video has been removed but scroll down this linked page to watch it on wenb.
you wont be dissapointed william
http://kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3189&start=800
@90
in fifa players turn to the left and to the right better than we already see so far on the trailer of PES and this is true.Tell if i’m wrong.
They removed it totaly
@102
lol.. Why answer my question with another question? You can answer mine first :)
post 94 was me, not anonymous arguing with himself!
@ comment 55, thanks for being insulting, well you must be the stupid one because you’re slating me for praising FIFA when I don’t mention it once. Rather than actually come up with decent argument yourself, you degrade it into “if you’re criticising PES then you must be a FIFA fanboy” kind of argument, which is pathetic at best.
No, I haven’t played the game. But to me it looks horrible. It looks like it plays very similar to 2010. And I see a LOT of promises Konami made about stamina, the superhuman players being more human, and ‘thousands’ of new animations. That video shows awful, robotic animation yet again, no evidence of new stamina being any kind of issue, and yeah, Messi runs around the defences in a stupidly unrealistic manner. He causes havok in La Liga, but not like that.
Can you honestly say, given we’ve just seen a demo from average players at best, that Messi in the hands of an elite online player, will not be able to single handedly destroy teams on his own? I mean, the video clearly shows that he can run at absolutely ridiculous pace.
I hope PES turns out to be great, I’m fed up of it not being so, but this gameplay vid just looks plain bad to me. But hey, comment no. 55, keep up the blind optimism and keep up slagging off anyone who doesn’t share your opinion. Maybe you’ll grow up one day.
Hello buy PES 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygdLxFszqco&feature=player_embedded
@ 37 Dopecoil
Totally agree with all you have said. EA are too far ahead now and Konami can only hope for a slightly better game than last year. Im slightly worried looking at the latest gameplay video released, looking at the running animations, they are still like crouching monkeys and the ball moves like it is sticking to the players feet instead of running free after a touch. Its worrying also that DD has said a few of the same niggles are in the game when these should have been sorted before anything new was implimented!!
good preview. I think Pes 11 looks impressive. I play on the pc, so so far there has been no competition, but with fifa 11 looking sharp on pc too it will be a tough decision. Can’t wait to try out both demos.
@ 94
Dude, do you even try to think before talking?
I do not want to have 11 players thinking by themselves, you know why? because that’s impossible, if the 11 players think by themselves; the game would be 100% automatic.
What PES and FUFA are currently doing is stupid and outdated, what I want is just simple, it’s very simple and I do not know how you can argue against me when I have NOT even mentioned how it should be done.
You are arguing against what exactly?
I would really like to know, since I have not given any suggestions about how it should work.
————————————————
“In a football video game, build up play will only be usd as a necessity, cos 1 mind controls all 10 outfield playrs and u will therefore choose the quikest and most direct route for a chance on goal. In real life their are 11 people each with their own perspective on the game, and their own personalities. To slate a pes or fifa for nt being able to re-produce real life reactions is ridiculous. Your argument is redundant, so leave it, cos wat u want wnt happen.”
———————————————–
Do you think I am a moron? Everything you have said is OBVIOUS and REDUNDANT, and I take it as an insult since you did not even attempted to actually use your BRAIN before tipping all those words.
Tell me something, speak, I read Post 94 and I don’t hear you talking or arguing about anything: you are just denying something without even understanding what you are denying, which makes your whole argument boring and redundant and a waste of time.
Yes, PES is a video game, and yes, PES will continue improving: you will see what I’m talking about in a few years.
But since you cannot see past PES or FIFA, since you are actually denying and arguing about something that I do not even know what it is since I have not given any sugestions: since I have only pointed out a FACT, but not actually given any suggestion that you can deny or argue against.
I think the fact that your are both denying something without even trying to understanding what it is; for me, that’s more or less like criticizing music without hearing it: it is stupid and lazy and redundant.
I think FACTS speak louder than words… But whatever, if it makes you feel any better: yes, what I want is impossible, PES is a video game… yet I wonder why a video game is not as simple as the real life game.
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Isso, Post 95
Dude,
THERE IS NO BUILD-UP PLAY, IT DOES NOT EXISTS, THEREFORE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE…
FACTS speak louder than words: the FACT that you actually think that “build-up” play exists in the video game, it speaks volumes about your lack of understanding on how football works and what “build-up” play actually is.
You clearly do not know nor understand what “build-up” play is and why it is called BUILD-up play. In my opinion, you are not qualified to judge my opinion, since you clearly do not undertsand what build-up play is and why it is ALWAYS necessary in order to play football.
I have played PES and FIFA for many years, I used to enjoy it, but now I can see it can be much better and I think it should be a lot better given the capaciy of the current hardware: I know enough to know that “build-up” play is impossible in both PES and FIFA, whatever it is you speak about, it’s not build-up play… What exactly are you building anyways?
FIFA10 and PES10 and PES11 and FIFA11: it’s about counter attacking, counter attack after counter attack, build-up play is in FACT impossible to do due to OBVIOUS reasons that everyone should understand by now.
In the future, perhaps it will be possible to do build-up play because perhaps the game will be simpler and smarter and more realistic; but currently, what many people dare to call “build-up play” is in fact a COUNTER ATTACK.
Possession football is impossible due to the FACT that in the video game: counter attacking and “build-up play” is in FACT one thing.
It’s not a question of difficulty, difficulty is for noobs who think they are actually skillful; it’s simply a matter of how good the game is, and currently, the game is lacking simple consistency and ground rules.
Hahahaha.
@ MR Alan Patridge
Well mr alan patridge, you have just proven to me that you are completely brainless.
I f you can read properly and understand what I wrote down, you’ll realise that am not a pes fanboy with blind optimism.
All I said was your comments about the game without playing it yourself is a bit absuurd and shows what an Idotic childish individual you are with a pessimistic attitude.
I honestly couldn’t care if you’re a fanboy of Fifa or PES.
Me personally I thought both games were garbage last year.
I’m not loyal to any brand. All i’m saying is stop with your stupid negative comments if you haven’t played the game, It shows you are not very bright.
We think the trailer has good animations but not perfect.
The goalkeepers are being worked on.
If you don’t like it, thats fine. Just stop killing the positive vibe on this forum.
Jesus H Christ.
Grow up.
@Amateur Give it a break mate, will you? I mean common you’re just repeating the same words over and over again and then at the end you label them as “FACTS”. Please don’t do a Rafa Benitez on me because we all know how that one ended up. Stop hating on everyone who doesn’t support your opinions and try to be more open minded. You see things different than I do but that doesnt necessarily mean that you’re right and I’m wrong. If you think that current video games aren’t satisfying your urgent needs, simply stop splashing the cash on them.
Isso, Post 116
Give it a break will you? What is wrong with you dude? I am only talking about a video game, and when I talk about a PRODUCT, I talk about FACTS.
It does not works like that, I have invested enough money on this series to express my views on how the genre has changed over the years. I pay for the game and at least, I can say I know the game inside out.
You are either right or you are wrong, if you want to criticize my opinion, there is nothing to criticize: you know why? Because I am not discussing my opinion, I only expressed a FACT.
Disagreeing with a FACT makes you look stupid, to be honest; this is a simple video game, the flaws should be clear to anyone with common sense. And by the way, it is impossible to deny a simple FACT since it is what it is.
I have given my positives and my negatives; however, I will not be some blind optimist: the game has improved massively, however, the ping-pong formula still has not been replaced.
You are a fan-boy, and thus, I understand why you said: ”If you think that current video games aren’t satisfying your urgent needs, simply stop splashing the cash on them”
Urgent needs? why do you think I urgently need a video game? it’s a video game, it’s unimportant, it’s just entertainment that I pay for, nothing more and nothing less.
Anyone who has supported PES over the years has earned the right to talk about PES however he likes. I am talking about FACTS, and you, you do not understand what I’m talking about and instinctively you decide to deny it because you don’t understand it.
It’s boring, typical fan-boy mentality, you guys can only process something compatible with your narrow-minded views.
Talk about the game, give me FACTS that support your opinion; if you cannot do that, then please do avoid arguing with me since you are wasting my time and also your time.
Peace,
I’ll still buy this game because we are sadly not being given anything better and I love football too much not to play footy video games.
I understand people calling Konami lazy because of small stuff they never improve on, but anyone saying that they will move to FIFA exclusively due to laziness is kidding themselves that EA don’t still have lots of little niggly things they should fix, but don’t.
I buy all games (just got off the PS3 playing FIFA WC) and it pisses me off the things they do focus on like numerous unrealsitic tricks and stupid celebrations, but tiny issues involving the reality of football continue to be ignored. The high ratings FIFA 10 and FIFA WC got were ridiculous when you consider how far all football games have to go to get anywhere near real thing.
Both franchises need more people working on them who actually appreciate the intricate realities of football. I think these devs are football fanboys rather that football officianados. You can always spot a fanboy because they seem to “follow” something for all it’s superficiality, rather than understand and appreciate it’s nuances.
Hence we have games that ignore the basic importance of things like having a goalkeeper play the ball with speed, rather than completing a fancy animation or standing there like a statue…basic stuff ignored.
I dunno, maybe I’m just frustrated my Argentina just got beat by Colombia in qualifiers,(in FIFA WC) lol….
There’s enough in PES2011 to keep this mug (me) interested in getting it- my only consolation being that I prefer to play PES ont he PC- it’s cheaper than the console version AND it’s better for editing…..
peace..
Until I hear that the ‘revamped’ Master League actually stores seasonal data rather than wiping it every season. To someone who only plays the Master League, this is very important to the playability of the game.
Also, does this new passing gauge mean that the smaller teams no longer play like Barcelona? There are times when I am chasing the ball for 15 mins or more against the likes of Wigan who continue to pass it amongst themselves (even when they are losing).
Andrew, Post 118
I buy all games (just got off the PS3 playing FIFA WC) and it pisses me off the things they do focus on like numerous unrealsitic tricks and stupid celebrations, but tiny issues involving the reality of football continue to be ignored. The high ratings FIFA 10 and FIFA WC got were ridiculous when you consider how far all football games have to go to get anywhere near real thing.
Both franchises need more people working on them who actually appreciate the intricate realities of football. I think these devs are football fanboys rather that football officianados. You can always spot a fanboy because they seem to “follow” something for all it’s superficiality, rather than understand and appreciate it’s nuances.
Response
Well said, fully agree, you are spot on.
I’m just bored with the FAN-BOY argument about how the game needs better animations and needs to be more fluid; PES 2011 is fluid and has good animations, and they are still complaining about the same thing…
Instead of conjuring all that rubbish, they should just say: I want FIFA10 with PES10 graphics… that’s what they want, they should be clear about it instead of repeating the same redundant and subjective argument.
PES10 and FIFA10 are both rubbish, one more automatic and the other more manual; but both revolving around how fast you can exploit the fact that there are no ground rules and no substance to the game.
GROUND RULES and SUBSTANCE, which has absolutely nothing to do with animations or fluidity.
You tell them a FACT and they respond by saying: ”if you are not satisfied you should not buy the game.”
I mean, the level of maturity is sub-par, fan-boys can only process people agreeing with them, if they do not understand something due to their lack of understanding and knowledge: they’ll plain out refuse and deny it, and even insult you, but they never provide a single FACT that can sustain their credibility.
It’s just stupid at this point, if I was Konami, I would not waste my time reading all the rubbish: it’s either too positive or too negative, but they never actually mention anything relevant.
Positive opinion: ”looks like a massive improvement, now I just want a playable online and editable nets”
Negative opinion: ”the game is the same rubbish, robotic animations, you cannot even cross the ball like in FIFA. Konami are so dumb, they want to make the game easier so that casual fans can play it; FIFA is very far ahead, I cannot see things changing any time soon”
Negative opinion: ”we still have automated crossing mechanics, automated goal kicks, automated heading mechanics and to top it all off, a accentric over elaborate defensive system that know one actually requested as well as a complete dumbing down of the trick system to appeal to casuals.”
That’s the typical rubbish that you mostly get to read in PESGaming and WENB and PESFan. A bunch of consumers saying OBVIOUS things, and when it’s negative, they are under the delusion that their opinion amounts to FACTS.
However, despite that the majority can only produce rubbish and subjective feedback; the FACT remains very simple: PES10 and FIFA10 are both rubbish, one more automatic and the other more manual, but both revolving around how fast you can exploit the fact that there are no ground rules and no substance to the game.
How can they make the game better in this respect? This is where the game needs most improvement, and this has nothing to do with animations, fluid feel, dribbling tricks, manual passing, manual dribbling, manual crossing, working online, editable nets, etc, etc.
Dopecoil actually said: ”a accentric over elaborate defensive system that know one actually requested”
Even though the FACT is that the defensive system is the area that needs most improvement… Obviously, no one actually requested an over elaborate defensive system due to the fact that they are narrow-minded fan-boys who have little or no idea of how the game should improve.
But thankfully, Konami did worked on an over elaborate defensive system that no one actually requested. It shows that Konmai has ideas, and I hope this defensive system is the start of something even more different and improved.
You said it better than anyone: both franchises need more people working on them who actually appreciate the intricate realities of football. I think these devs are football fanboys rather that football aficionados. You can always spot a fanboy because they seem to ”follow” something for all it’s superficiality, rather than understand and appreciate it’s nuances.
Implementing the intricacies of football is actually SIMPLER than the current flawed ping-pong defensive system which has absolutely nothing to do with football. But of course, some fan-boy will say that: ”what you want is impossible, you should give it a break”
They do not even know what I want and yet they are already disagreeing with it; typical fan-boy mentality.
andrew 118
I disagree,while fifa may not be perfect it still manages to get the basics right and each of the 22 outfield protaganists react to whats happening around them on the pitch realistically,encompassing everything from stray balls as well as anything loose.Couple that with the sobering reality that you can actually freely and manually hit a huge variation of long balls and crosses ie long,mid,high yourself with just with the stick relevant button and direct any goal kick for your front players to flick on or control with chest and feet.
Yes,you have your assisted crowd that do nothing but ping pong the ball about and just play the standard short pass game,but there are people like myself who have discovered layers and depth in fifa that some who play a certain way will never uncover.
Ive only played fifa for just under a year now and a couple of nights ago i played someone who has always been a fifa player(and a good one at that for ten years or so)and his jaw dropped when he saw the things i was doing with the FWC game,even he couldnt believe so many different types of plays could be achieved,or the huge amount of variation i was exhibiting with my crossing and long passing ie hitting crosses low to feet,high for headers and mid height for chest trapping and volleys from various angles be the extreme or otherwise with different amounts of power and swerve.I was also completely closing the door defensively as well as creating lovely passing triangles and playmaking with my midfield ie hitting long balls behing defenders for my forwards to run onto as well as patiently passing the ball around,stretching his team waiting for my teamates off the ball to run into the space i was making.
This is what fifa now has,theres not alot you cant do,the gameplays really solid and theres a huge amount of variation if you experiment and actually play patient thinking mans football and set the game up so that your controlling things not the cpu assisting your game.
Im a pes fan not a fifa one,and i want a pes thats technically as deep and as varied as fifa with players on the pitch that react to the ball and whats happening around them organically.Pes2011 may play like a different animal then this poor preview video demonstrates but i remain unconvinced because alot of PESs automations still seem to exist as does the general rigid way the game and players move.
For me fifa and FWC more so is a very underated game in the hearts and minds of the few loyal pes hardcore,when the reality is its arguably the best football game that has been made both from a technical point of view and on the gameplay front.
Pes2011 may change this,and i hope for konamis sake and those that simply wont give fifa the time that this is the case,but me,im going to wait for the demo,ive been burned for 3 years now and i can do things ive never been able to do in any prior football game now in fifa.Pes2011 for me has to be atleast up to the grade of fifa10 interms of gameplay and the way all 22 outfield players react to the ball and whats happening around them at all times.No bugs,no glitches,no sticky physics and no doggy keepers.
Amateur 120
Fifa and FWC more so has a cracking defensive system.Yes there are some that just auto press but a good player will always exploit this by using the clever way you can change a players inertia and direction with close control.
Theres nothing new about pes2011s defensive system,in fifa you can lock on to a player avoiding to much of a heavy press by pressing l2 and r2 togehter or jockey as well as jockey run.Not only this but the stick control is so subtle in fifa that you can literally go toe to toe with any forward to the pixel,pes2011s defensive player movement still looks blocky meaning they had to create this sytem for the user to feel like he actually has some defensive control,but if you look closely at the preview vid the defenders still look clumbersome and like they have the turning circle of a artic truck.Real defenders might not have tight ball control but there agile and quick and can curtail a nippy forward.
Im sticking to my comment,its over elaborate and accentric when all that is required is subtle and tight stick control which is responsive and accurate with the abilty to manually press,jockey and have a tackle button,not a system in which by pressing the stick towards the player your player makes a auto tackle.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is for me what konami and seabass just dont understand,the majority really want mega tight player control with the left thumbstick,be it every man in your defense as well as your midfield and forwards.I especially want to feel every tiny intricate movement made with my left thumbstick reflected by the movements seen on screen,i dont want to have to turn my player towards his own goal for him to shadow a player,surely with analog control the end user should be able to shadow any player with good stick and dash control,you dont need to have to manually trigger this action.
I meant………..
This is for me what konami and seabass just dont understand,the majority really want mega tight player control with the left thumbstick,be it every man in your defense as well as your midfield and forwards.I especially want to feel every tiny intricate movement made with my left thumbstick reflected by the movements seen on screen,i dont want to have to turn my player towards his own goal and press x for him to shadow a player,surely with analog control the end user should be able to shadow any player with good stick and dash control,you dont need to have to manually trigger this action with such a ornate system.
personally I found the review no help at all but the video someone posted earlier had made up my impressions of the game so far. the animations look very promising but they haven’t caught up with fifa in that department imo.
secondly some of the features that were revealed earlier about defenders holding up play like real life were very subtle as I only saw it happen once.
Thirdly the broken penalty system is still in place, I wish that the camera is behind the player and also it is easier to shoot to the sides than having to shoot in the middle.
Furthermore superhuman players still exist such as messi, watch the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygdLxFszqco&feature=player_embedded
watch it at the 6:58 mark and how the defenders were useless against messi
Finally with the same problem as pes10 that it’s too easy to score as ozils goal was too easy and so was danny’s goal
Dopecoil:
”Looks and sounds promising but i still get the overiding feeling that pes2011 much like the last three years will be undercooked.
Sure its a improvement but one full of alot of the niggles that should of been corrected by now considering how loudly they have been trumpeted by the community and the competitions game doesnt have any of these.
I fear pes2011 just isnt going to be enough against eas very strong and improved offering this year,and yet again we have more freedom in some areas but the same automations and limitations in others.
I got burned with both pes2010 and blue samuri as there both vastly inferior to both fifa10 and FWC interms of gameplay and completeness,because despite fifa10 and FWC still lacking a quality replay system and horrible player likenesses they,ea,have pretty much nailed the huge amount of variation you get in real football and despite the odd glitch,at least the players move and react to the ball freely and you can manually cross and spot a ball amongst a raft of over small little touches that just shine through in there game.
Its funny a year ago i wouldnt of even considered a ea footie game but now its konami for me that have every thing to prove.
Has pes2011 got to be near perfect,yes,let us not forget ea have a almost technically faultless engine that with personality plus and pro passing is going to be taken to another level bringing with it all the subtleties and nuances that already exist in fifa10 and FWC along with a very arresting animation system that looks gorgeous even against pes2011 and is only going to improve further.
Lots of hype,lots of promise but yet again i dont think pes2011 is going to be quite the sum of its parts,konami are playing catch up and they havent got the resources or staff now to compete or catch ea.
The tables have turned and its now ea who are setting the benchmark while konami are still unable to deliver a game that is anything but half finished with the same fundamental promblems at its core.”
Response:
Is FIFA10 not undercooked? Does FIFA10 not have automations and limitations in some areas?
I fail to see the logic in your trivial and weak argument, you are criticizing Konami for something that EA Sports has always done with FIFA.
Dopecoil: ”I got burned with both pes2010 and blue samuri as there both vastly inferior to both fifa10 and FWC in terms of gameplay and completeness, because despite fifa10 and FWC still lacking a quality replay system and horrible player likenesses they, ea, have pretty much nailed the huge amount of variation you get in real football”
So, PES10 graphics with FIFA10 gameplay?
Despite FIFA10 and FWC still lacking a quality replay system and horrible player likenesses they, EA, have pretty much nailed the huge amount of variation you get in real football… It almost sounds like you are saying: give me FIFA10 gameplay with PES10 graphics.
Although you clearly have a good understanding on certain things like dribbling tricks, I think that you just want what you wants, you do not really want something new, just something old with PES10 graphics.
Dopecoil, I think you clearly do not care or do not understand Football enough, you just want an insubstantial video game with manual gimmicks attached to the 15 year old ping-pong formula so that it feels like everything is under your control; in other words, you just want the gameplay of FIFA10 with PES10 graphics.
So what, manual crossing and manual goal kicks and manual heading, will it make much of a difference? what you and many other people want is just obvious and outdated… you are talking about trivial and redundant things that will only make PES more and more similar to FIFA.
I just don’t see why anything you have mentioned so far is needed, starting with the fact that FIFA10 is nowhere near the huge amount of variation you get in real football
I have no problem with you wanting what you want; you are entitled to your opinion, as the rest of us… However I do have a problem when you start talking and preaching about your opinion as if it was a FACT… that’s just outdated and redundant, even more so considering the obvious flaws that both PES and FIFA have in common.
Dopecoil
That’s your opinion and I respect it for what it is; I cannot argue with you on this point because I have not really mentioned what it is that I want, and thus, you don’t actually know what I want and therefore cannot agree or disagree with it.
However, I wanted to comment on some of your comments as I found them interesting,
Dopecoil: ”Fifa and FWC more so has a cracking defensive system.Yes there are some that just auto press but a good player will always exploit this by using the clever way you can change a players inertia and direction with close control.”
I don’t think it’s that good, it certainly is much better than the one PES10 uses, PES10 is very automatic and it’s just lifeless since you have very little control over it. But even so, I do not consider FIFA and FWC as a cracking defensive system.
Perhaps it’s pretty good in terms of man-marking, which is more specific; but what I mean when I say ping-pong formula, is the overall system… a lot of essential decisions are dictated by the COM, this decisions are mostly defensive reactions in the midfield… there’s just no law and order to the way things are BUILD.
Dopecoil: ”Im sticking to my comment,its over elaborate and accentric when all that is required is subtle and tight stick control which is responsive and accurate with the abilty to manually press,jockey and have a tackle button,not a system in which by pressing the stick towards the player your player makes a auto tackle.”
I agree with that, in the same way I think FIFA´s man-marking system is also over-elaborate and not intuitive enough: it can be simpler and more intuitive, and perhaps even more precise and manual.
I think it should be simpler, and I think it should be simpler by simply changing how the left analogue stick works: if the space between the ball carrier and the defensive midfielder is of approximately 10 feet of distance… directing the left analogue stick towards the right will not move you 10 or 20 feet towards the right, instead, it will cover the right side of the ball carrier.
In other words, the left analogue stick should revolve more around man-marking, and less around endless running. It’s just simplifying certain things that are currently over-elaborate.
Dopecoil: ”This is for me what konami and seabass just dont understand,the majority really want mega tight player control with the left thumbstick,be it every man in your defense as well as your midfield and forwards.I especially want to feel every tiny intricate movement made with my left thumbstick reflected by the movements seen on screen,i dont want to have to turn my player towards his own goal and press x for him to shadow a player,surely with analog control the end user should be able to shadow any player with good stick and dash control,you dont need to have to manually trigger this action with such a ornate system.”
More or less what I want, simplify the damn thing so that we have more control over everything.
The ping-pong formula, the problem with it is how you get close to the ball carrier: how do you close-down on the ball carrier?
This is a very simple and yet intricate procedure of real life football: in PES, you only have to use the left analogue stick and the sprint button… and in doing so, some very important elements of real football are being neglected.
the other key problem with the ping-pong formula is; how do you start an attack from scratch?
Starting an attack from scratch feels like a counter attack, due to the simple reason that defensive reactions in the midfield are non-existent… therefore, you can pass the ball to Leo Messi whom is positioned on the last third of the pitch, and you did not needed to unlock the midfield because the midfield is already unlocked automatically by the COM.
And what happens is that the game looses the organic feel of not knowing how an attack will start and how it will end, because it is so breakable and predictable.
What I want is to simplify things, if I needed to think in order to get close to the ball carrier, and if the ball carrier has the ball in my half of the pitch: in this scenario, the game should automatically lock itself up and let the one-versus-one scenario sort things out.
At the moment, there’s no sense of compromise, you get close to the ball carrier and the ball carrier simply passes the ball; which gives the game a ping-pong feel because of all the easy passing.
One-versus.one scenarios must be the heartbeat of everything, with very precise and manual dribbling and man-marking. The question is, the law and order, the consistency and substance, what is the procedure required for me to get close to the ball carrier and how much control do I have over it?
This is the area that needs most improvement, and it has very little to do with animations or look, and both PES10 and FIFA10 are very outdated in that very important and yet neglected area.
Amateur
I just want a game thats balanced properly and fair,so for example if your player is down the wing and you spot a opening for your forward in the box to hit a placed header,volley or low drive you then have to place the ball roughly in the required direction with the right amount of power and direction with me then having the control with my defender,if i have the skill and anticipate your commands to block that with my defender if i time my contact with the ball roughly at the same time as you,i dont want you just to be able to press a button,the ball heads towards your player like a magnet and because he has good stats my defender doesnt react and you score a goal with no real skill or effort,because thats automation and being contrived.
This is what is wrong with pes for me,theres no real balance and it isnt based on skill,reaction or timing its more about players and teams being better then others not the end user who is controlling them and how we maximise there abilitys ourself with skill and good stick control and using there abilitys at the right time and in the right context of the game.
This is why freedom of control,from direction to power is so important in all facets of the game not just short passing.You dont state engineered for freedom then still continue with automated mechanics in some areas that take away from the freedom in others.
im not a fifa fan boy, i just like to play the best football game. as i use to love playing pro evo when the ps2 was around. then when pro evo went to ps3..it was so bad for the last 3years. you get me.??
Dopecoil, Post 128
Fully agree. What I was trying to say in the few posts I directed at you and in the other one where I quoted you, is that you were criticizing Konami for something that EA Sports also does with FIFA; which in my opinion made your argument kind of redundant.
That said, I agree with your latest posts. I think or at least hope that Konami is going in the correct direction, as it makes no sense that Konami might actually be thinking about casual fans over their hardcore fan base.
What I want, is a game that’s balanced properly and fair in terms of one-versus-one battles; but also, a smart and balanced game in terms of tactical play aka midfield battles.
The technical side of the game is very important, but if getting close to the ball carrier is just a repetitive and shallow procedure that requires zero thinking: the game will remain a ping-pong game at its core.
My point is difficult to explain in detail, but to put it simply: what is the point of all them technical gimmicks when the game lacks cleverness at its core?
This is where PES10 and FIFA10 are both outdated; one more automatic and the other more manual, but both revolving around how fast you can exploit the fact that there are no ground rules to the game.
A proper football sim should have a lot do with timing, but to date, it’s all about how fast you exploit the flaws, and there’s nothing you can do about it because the game is broken from the ground up, because there is no midfield barrier that forces you into BUILDING your play: the ping-pong formula.
The defensive system and off-the-ball movement needs massive changes, at the moment, getting close to the ball carrier and basically playing football…
It is not based on skill, reaction or timing, its more about players and teams being better then others not the end user who is controlling them and how we maximize there abilities ourselves with skill and good stick control and using there abilities at the right time and in the right context of the game.
It’s about how fast you play, but it needs to be about how well you play football. FIFA10 is better than PES10 from a technical stand point; however, it has nothing to do with Football.
FIFA already has the excellent animations and feel to the game, but at its core the game is just a lot of manual gimmicks attached to the same old ping-pong formula: the ping-pong formula is about how fast you play, it’s not about playing football, it’s not based on skill nor reaction nor timing… it’s based on how fast you can exploit all the obvious flaws, resulting in repetitive high scoring games and a lack of learning curve and overall substance to how the game is played.
This is something that both PES10 and FIFA10 have in common, and something that I never seen you discussing; which is why I think all the technical gimmicks that you have mentioned in many of your posts will not make much of a difference to how the game is played if the very essence of Football is neglected.
Amateur 130
But this is what i have been saying in relation to games like iss/perfect striker,and how you had to play football,how it should be played,to win.And how this series of games rewarded you for doing this and how everything was in the end users control.You lost and conceded goals through your mistakes,bad timing,rushing forward,leaving gaps.You never felt cheated or that the game was taken out of your hands.
Fifa and FWC more so now gives you this to a degree,certainly more so then pes ever has.At least with fifa now you have the level of control that is required to counter the opposition,you dont feel like theres nothing you could of done ala pes2010 or that the game renders you a passenger to its invisible will.
Game balance comes from good ai programming and giving the end user the tools to express himself freely in the virtual playground you create equally with the cpu ai.
Maybe pes2011 is finally this and more,its impossible to tell from videos with even fifa being viewed rather then played having the look of a game that seems different to the actual experience you get when you play it.
Fifa is a very balanced game now though,and its infinetly deeper and more layered then pes2010 currently,yes,pes2010 isnt without its strengths and there is something clever hidden behind that ancient animation and on-rails gameplay waiting to get out with descent ai,physics and more open gameplay,lets just hope pes2011 demonstrates this because im not convinced yet.
Based on the last video, PES 2011 has in fact improved a bit but it doesn’t seem like much currently. But the small steps they have taken to probably just grasp the basics of the game such as smoother graphics, quicker responsiveness and additional animations will be appreciated if done well.
I see Amateur is at it again with his long episodes of crap.
technical gimmicks that you have mentioned in many of your posts will not make much of a difference to how the game is played if the very essence of Football is neglected.
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@Dopecoil.
Really? You think players in FIFA react to loose balls well? Not when I play it. I’ve been playing nothign but FIFA10 and FIFAWC this gaming year and it constantly frustrates me.
Over the top physics also frustrate me-
Now keep in mind I’m not saying these are worse than PES or better, I’m just saying both football franchises have a long way to go and I while I appreciate many things they have done to properly simulate football (which I didn’t give them enough credit for in my first post) I think little things that directly effect the ability to play like a real team, have CONTINUED throughout both series- like slow play from goalkeepers and invisible walls, have either not been corrected or taken generations longer than they should have been to fix.
Where are the defensive setups for set pieces? FIFA’s customizable set plays were a great start, but why do I still feel handicapped when I’m defending a set-play in both PES and FIFA?
Also (and sorry if this is turning into an “issues about fifa post, but hey I’ve been playing it all year) how is the slow set piece pass still in there? When I’m playing online and want to pass from my goalkeeper to a defender or when I want to pass from a free-kick my mate can exploit the fact that it takes an age for the playe rto animate a longer free-kick animation so he gets there before I do becase I can’t control anyone until the player has kicked the ball. It’s dub of me to do this, but I still sometimes to it becasue as someone who like to play and watch footabll I find it a fundamental thing to to….
Also I believe you when you say that your mate was amazed at how you can play in FIFA, and mate, I aint’ saying I’m as skilled as you, but I purposely play FIFA in a style that mimics real life build up and possesion, (I’m currently working on getting good players to hold up the ball and turn on it and away from a rushing defeneder to keep posession -a la Iniesta and Xavi)—-
——–BUT what I’m saying is that it actually has no effect on how my opponent has to play the game. The mate I play against the most just plays end to end stuff and it works for him. He’s not penalized for playing in an unrealistic manner. We share a 50-50 win rate against each other so it has no effect how I play.
Anyway I really feel sometimes that the devs miss the wood for the trees…..
/rant
Sorry about horrible spelling^^^ I’m in a rush.
andrew
That’s more or less my point, yes it is true that FIFA10 has some good things, but it still is very outdated in terms of game design or overall play: it does not teaches you how to play proper football…
In my opinion, a football simulation that does not teaches a casual fan how to play football, is a video game that is aimed precisely at casual fans.
That’s cool for some people, but the problem for me is that in doing so, the simplicity and cleverness of the beautiful game is replaced by an obvious and repetitive ping-pong system where a “hardcore” fan can be a purist and play realistically but a casual fan can always play unrealistic end to end nonsense…
The problem is, that as a result of the ping-pong game design, there is absolutely no difference between possession football and counter attacking football: which is why the way you play the video game does not affects how your opponent plays, because the game is SCRIPTED and formulated so that both users have chances on goal regardless of the style of play.
That’s cool for some people, however, I find it boring at this point; because the game lacks a lot of substance at its core, and I never feel in control… I have freedom when passing the ball, however do I have any type of control over how the playmaker of my team moves without the ball?
Can I consciously decide if I want backwards movement from the playmaker of the team in order to start the attack from the back? No… if the playmaker plays in an advanced position he will stay up there, and you have no semi-manual control over when and how you want him to move in certain instances.
If he does not touches the ball, you have no control over how your playmaker moves without the ball, and basically, you have little to no control over how your team moves without the ball; instead, we have a very superficial L1 Run and R2 Run, where you tap the L1 button and the forward will sprint forwards… that’s not what I call control, because it lacks substance and makes BUILD-up play redundant, makes easy goals unavoidable and inevitable, amongst other things.
Which coupled with the ridiculous defensive system, where all the players on the pitch are attached to ONE button added to the overall lack of artificial intelligence, thus rendering 90% of the team automatic and out of your control, and basically, breaking the game and making the gameplay experience about how breakable the game is and how good you are at breaking it.
It’s just very obvious and insubstantial in the most important area, which is why I cannot describe FIFA10 as a good current-gen football sim. It is good if your standards are the same as they where back in the PS2 days, however, in this day and age, I believe the video game should be more clever and mature and also easier to play: better structured and more simple and consistent.