Second Demo, Second Opinion

I had some time to kill this evening so I thought I'd download the second demo and see if there have been some miracles performed by Konami. Sufficed to say it appears to be the same sh*te with different teams. Defending is still ridiculously crap, players are still dribbling like they're all Maradona, because of this defending is absolutely, utterly hopeless. This is not a great piece of game programming.

What it is, is a very average to say the least football game with tackling removed for the user. Giving the impression of a strong AI. An AI will appear strong when it can run from one end of the pitch to the other whenever it pleases because you cannot make the moronic player you control stick out a leg whenever YOU want.

Utter crap. For last years beer mat, Konami spouted a load of brown runny stuff about 'engineered for freedom'. That lasted long, didn't it? A part of the game as much as passing and shooting is TACKLING. Its a part of the game, and the player should be able to make a standing tackle whenever they want.

Not to say that the tackle should be successful everytime, but the player should feel like they are in some small way actually a part of the experience, not just some sucker who spent £24 to sit there wishing they hadn't bothered. Like last year. And the year before that. And the year before that.

Well fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, fuck off Konami. Stevie Wonder could have made a better game than this. And Jedwood could have put better music on the menus.

People will obviously say at this point, you're just crap, you can't defend. Well I can, I can sit there and watch Maicon run past Gallas like everybody else.

The thing is if I wanted to just sit there and hope for the best I'd be playing Football Manager. This is a game where you are supposed to control what happens to some degree. Defending included.

This is not a simulation either. Not even close. It is a very arcadey experience, like all the players are on steroids, the speed of the games are too fast, and on the lower speed settings it just looks like a fast game slowed down. Like a song played slow. You can tell.

Its a shame really, because to give the PES developers credit it does actually look like they put in some work this year. The problem is yet again the directions they are taking are very much red herrings. With a useless fat seabass somewhere as well.

Take my advice people, save you're money and wait for a propper game.

I still laugh when people play a game, find they're terrible at something and therefor declare it to be bad. Defending isn't gone, you're just clearly rubbish at it from the sound of things. And just to reply to your little statement that you can defend, just read over your own post, you might realize that you obviously cant defend. I had problems at first, yet did the training challenges and got to grips with the different defending system, now I've learnt to hold players off(very important), double up on players and the main thing, dispossess them. All possible when you learn how to defend, try it sometime pal.

Pes 2012 is better than fifa 12 in my honest opinion ...

i'm giving up on konami, there is no hope! wait another year! i hope someone else will step up like 2K Games and make a proper football simulation.

They expect me to pay $40 for patched up 2011? it's stupid marketing strategy to make you buy the game every year, what a joke! :no:

How many years now and they can't even fix gameplay, animations, etc...

RIP PES, may someone else pick up the slack.

jmtd said:

i still laugh when people play a game, find they're terrible at something and therefor declare it to be bad. Defending isn't gone, you're just clearly rubbish at it from the sound of things. And just to reply to your little statement that you can defend, just read over your own post, you might realize that you obviously cant defend. I had problems at first, yet did the training challenges and got to grips with the different defending system, now i've learnt to hold players off(very important), double up on players and the main thing, dispossess them. All possible when you learn how to defend, try it sometime pal.

Click to expand...

+1

JMTD said:

I still laugh when people play a game, find they're terrible at something and therefor declare it to be bad. Defending isn't gone, you're just clearly rubbish at it from the sound of things. And just to reply to your little statement that you can defend, just read over your own post, you might realize that you obviously cant defend. I had problems at first, yet did the training challenges and got to grips with the different defending system, now I've learnt to hold players off(very important), double up on players and the main thing, dispossess them. All possible when you learn how to defend, try it sometime pal.

Click to expand...

Regardless of ability he has a point, the game speed is just plain daft. In terms of gameplay its as if all the player had quaffed exponential amounts of Red Bull.

PesMaster1 said:

Pes 2012 is better than fifa 12 in my honest opinion ...

Click to expand...

Im a pes fan and fifa fan ok i played the 2 demo both good
but when the full game come out i think pes 12 will come very close to give fifa to take top spot this year

People complaining about the games speed and dribbling, isn't that what we loved when the PES series first came about? Having pot shots from ridiculous range and having them rifle into the top corner? Must just be me that isn't picky about this PES, reminds me of the good old PES6 days, when it was a wonderful masterpiece.

Athlon_ said:

I had some time to kill this evening so I thought I'd download the second demo and see if there have been some miracles performed by Konami. Sufficed to say it appears to be the same sh*te with different teams. Defending is still ridiculously crap, players are still dribbling like they're all Maradona, because of this defending is absolutely, utterly hopeless. This is not a great piece of game programming.

What it is, is a very average to say the least football game with tackling removed for the user. Giving the impression of a strong AI. An AI will appear strong when it can run from one end of the pitch to the other whenever it pleases because you cannot make the moronic player you control stick out a leg whenever YOU want.

Utter crap. For last years beer mat, Konami spouted a load of brown runny stuff about 'engineered for freedom'. That lasted long, didn't it? A part of the game as much as passing and shooting is TACKLING. Its a part of the game, and the player should be able to make a standing tackle whenever they want.

Not to say that the tackle should be successful everytime, but the player should feel like they are in some small way actually a part of the experience, not just some sucker who spent £24 to sit there wishing they hadn't bothered. Like last year. And the year before that. And the year before that.

Well fool me once shame on me, fool me twice, fuck off Konami. Stevie Wonder could have made a better game than this. And Jedwood could have put better music on the menus.

People will obviously say at this point, you're just crap, you can't defend. Well I can, I can sit there and watch Maicon run past Gallas like everybody else.

The thing is if I wanted to just sit there and hope for the best I'd be playing Football Manager. This is a game where you are supposed to control what happens to some degree. Defending included.

This is not a simulation either. Not even close. It is a very arcadey experience, like all the players are on steroids, the speed of the games are too fast, and on the lower speed settings it just looks like a fast game slowed down. Like a song played slow. You can tell.

Its a shame really, because to give the PES developers credit it does actually look like they put in some work this year. The problem is yet again the directions they are taking are very much red herrings. With a useless fat seabass somewhere as well.

Take my advice people, save you're money and wait for a propper game.

Click to expand...

I have not played either demo of PES12, but I can tell you that I know what to expect even though I have not played the game; I do not necessarily agree with you 100%, but I agree with the general statement.

I'm talking of course, about why the fuck is movement within space still impossible?? It is fucking year 2012 for Seabass's sake, why the fuck are we still playing ARCADE GAMES where directing the pass and directing the movement is determined by merely directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button??

PLAYER INDIVIDUALITY is as simple as this.... implement movement within the space.... in other words, get fucking rid of the old system, implement a new system where the direction of passing does not interferes with the direction of movement, a new system where the left analog stick can affect movement through space and movement within space independently as well as simultaneously, and without fucking complicated and retarded controls schemes such as R1 + R2 (WTF?)

As a result, better dribblers will have more directions of dribbling (not running) when running at a player, players whom are better at protecting the ball will have more directions of movement (not running) when stationary; on the defensive end, average defenders would have less directions of standing tackles, average defenders would only have ONE chance to tackle every time you get close enough to the ball carrier, whereas world class defenders can tackle repetitively even when unsuccessful.

SIMPLE.... Amount of directions that a standing tackle can be directed.... Amount of times that a standing tackle can be used every time you close down the ball carrier.... Now that's player individuality.

What PES does, is that John Terry is supposed to tackle better than the average defender, but you do not actually control the tackle, you cannot actually control the direction of the tackle because directions in that dimension (within space) do not exist within the practical confines of the video game, and furthermore, you cannot even control the timing of the tackle.

I think the lack of movement within space, completely ignoring the look of the animations, and completely focusing on the practicality of the system, is more and more noticeable with each passing year. It is clear that Konami and EA Sports want to continue milking the same cow for years to come, I just hope a third party exposes how outdated PES and FIFA truly are.

I really didn't imagine things would be like this, back when I was playing PES5, I imagined that footy sims would be very advanced in year 2012, though unfortunately, the reality is that PES12 and FIFA12 are just PS2 era arcade games with nice graphics and nice animations.

PR3CiSiON said:

People complaining about the games speed and dribbling, isn't that what we loved when the PES series first came about? Having pot shots from ridiculous range and having them rifle into the top corner? Must just be me that isn't picky about this PES, reminds me of the good old PES6 days, when it was a wonderful masterpiece.

Click to expand...

Yeah that was 5 years ago.... I fail to see why the inability to progress should be celebrated.

Though having said that, PES5 and PES6 are entertaining, and some credible people have stated that PES12 is the first PES in a long time that can be compared in terms of pure entertainment.

Amateur said:

I have not played either demo of PES12, but I can tell you that I know what to expect even though I have not played the game; I do not necessarily agree with you 100%, but I agree with the general statement.

I'm talking of course, about why the fuck is movement within space still impossible??

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:bravo: :loopy:

Shut up then.

When you DO play the demo, make sure its the second one. You will then find out, IDIOT, that movement within space is very very very very possible this year.

I agree with what you say sometimes, but you really need to play the demo before coming out with "I already know what to expect....movement is impossible" when you ain't even played it. It's totally the opposite to what you "expect."

If it was FIFA you was talking about, then I'd agree with the "I already know what to expect"

:calmdown:

Craney91 said:

:bravo: :loopy:

Shut up then.

When you DO play the demo, make sure its the second one. You will then find out, IDIOT, that movement within space is very very very very possible this year.

I agree with what you say sometimes, but you really need to play the demo before coming out with "I already know what to expect....movement is impossible" when you ain't even played it. It's totally the opposite to what you "expect."

If it was FIFA you was talking about, then I'd agree with the "I already know what to expect"

:calmdown:

Click to expand...

Movement within the space is not possible in PES12; you know how I know? Because unlike you I actually understand what movement within the space actually is.

PES12 offers little gimmicks, movement within space is not a gimmick; here is the fact, direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button; you tell me, what the fuck happens? The player starts moving through space, not within space, through space, even though you are not fucking pressing the sprint button..... GIMMICK.

Instead if insulting a person over what is a fucking video game, you should perhaps understand what you talk about before making an ass of yourself; please do show me a video with the incredible "movement within space" that you talk about..... fucking TWAT.

Craney91 said:

When you DO play the demo, make sure its the second one. You will then find out, IDIOT, that movement within space is very very very very possible this year.

Click to expand...

No, you fucking MORON, real movement within the space will be THE feature when it eventually comes out; obviously, that's not PES12, PES12 is about the "Active AI" and the new off the ball gimmick, PES12 is not about revolutionary features such as movement within the space.

Movement within space is very simple: direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button, the player does not run through space, instead the player moves within space. Until that happens, don't fool yourself or worst try to fool others by telling them that movement within the space is "possible" as if "possible" amounts to something RELEVANT or REVOLUTIONARY.

Please do tell, can I use the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick in order to determine movement within space? Do I have an independent button to determine the timing? Or is the direction of the movement and the timing of the movement determined by the very same button?

Is directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, still enough to simultaneously determine three completely unrelated factors (1st) direction that the player is looking at and (2nd) direction that the player runs towards and (3rd) direction in which the player passes the ball??

You were kind enough to tell me how much of an idiot I am, you even added completely unnecessary smileys to reaffirm how much of a twat you truly are, yet you were not very giving with the actually relevant and objective facts; why is movement within space very very very possible? and why is it not just a gimmick? a similar gimmick to the FIFA tricks system perhaps? Please, do enlighten me with your knowledge....

to OP ... Simply don't play the game

JMTD said:

I still laugh when people play a game, find they're terrible at something and therefor declare it to be bad. Defending isn't gone, you're just clearly rubbish at it from the sound of things. And just to reply to your little statement that you can defend, just read over your own post, you might realize that you obviously cant defend. I had problems at first, yet did the training challenges and got to grips with the different defending system, now I've learnt to hold players off(very important), double up on players and the main thing, dispossess them. All possible when you learn how to defend, try it sometime pal.

Click to expand...

If you actually read what I said its not a matter of ability its a matter of control. If you can pass when you want, and shoot and everything else, why can't you tackle and defend when you want? I say a game is bad when instead of making a strong passing TEAM AI like Konami said they would, what they've actually done is make a worse version of FIFA 10. Remember that? Like PES 2012, it is simply an arcady dribblefest designed for 7 year olds and spammers.

In my opinion PES hasn't really improved on PES 4-6 at all in the last 5 years and nothing in that demo changed my opinion, pal.

Athlon_ said:

If you actually read what I said its not a matter of ability its a matter of control. If you can pass when you want, and shoot and everything else, why can't you tackle and defend when you want? I say a game is bad when instead of making a strong passing TEAM AI like Konami said they would, what they've actually done is make a worse version of FIFA 10. Remember that? Like PES 2012, it is simply an arcady dribblefest designed for 7 year olds and spammers.

In my opinion PES hasn't really improved on PES 4-6 at all in the last 5 years and nothing in that demo changed my opinion, pal.

Click to expand...

Sorry Athlon, but I'm not with you at all. How many tackles does John Terry make in a game? Answer - perhaps one or two. In NINETY F'KIN MINUTES!! Defenders don't 'tackle' a great deal, do you know why? Because the attackers are too sharp and quick! I was thinking about this yesterday. I played a real life game of football on Wednesday night, and I'm a defender. In ninety minutes have a guess how many times I tackled an opponent? Once! And that was to block a shot from a guy shooting twelve yards out.

TACKLING is one of the hardest things to do in this day and age especially at the top level. Why do you think Ronaldo gets fouled a lot, or Ribbery or Bale. How many times does Bale get tackled?

Think about it.

This game has tackling spot on and makes you think about unit positioning. If you defend properly by positioning, CPU attacks will peter out just like in real life. If you try to constantly tackle Rooney, Giggs and Nani and so on, guess what, you'll get punished.

Now I'm no expert, but isn't that what happens in real life. I don't want tackling easier, I want it like it is. The art of defending is 90-95% reading the game and positioning yourself. Only like 5% is actually tackling anybody!

In this regards, PES has it spot on.

To anybody complaining the game is too fast on demo 2, knock it down to game speed -1. I agree that players like Ribbery and Robben can be too responsive for the human reflex on game speed 0. I find -1 is the perfect balance. All this on Top Player.

techboy11 said:

Sorry Athlon, but I'm not with you at all. How many tackles does John Terry make in a game? Answer - perhaps one or two. In NINETY F'KIN MINUTES!! Defenders don't 'tackle' a great deal, do you know why? Because the attackers are too sharp and quick! I was thinking about this yesterday. I played a real life game of football on Wednesday night, and I'm a defender. In ninety minutes have a guess how many times I tackled an opponent? Once! And that was to block a shot from a guy shooting twelve yards out.

TACKLING is one of the hardest things to do in this day and age especially at the top level. Why do you think Ronaldo gets fouled a lot, or Ribbery or Bale. How many times does Bale get tackled?

Think about it.

This game has tackling spot on and makes you think about unit positioning. If you defend properly by positioning, CPU attacks will peter out just like in real life. If you try to constantly tackle Rooney, Giggs and Nani and so on, guess what, you'll get punished.

Now I'm no expert, but isn't that what happens in real life. I don't want tackling easier, I want it like it is. The art of defending is 90-95% reading the game and positioning yourself. Only like 5% is actually tackling anybody!

In this regards, PES has it spot on.

To anybody complaining the game is too fast on demo 2, knock it down to game speed -1. I agree that players like Ribbery and Robben can be too responsive for the human reflex on game speed 0. I find -1 is the perfect balance. All this on Top Player.

Click to expand...

I agree with what you say about tackling, what I am trying to say is it should be up to the player when tackles are made not the AI. A major component of defending, just like passing and shooting for attackings should be up to the player.



Anyway, all of this is rendered completely irrelevant because the goalkeepers are so unacceptably bad they couldn't catch a cold. Don't even get me started on the keepers. Pull your finger out your hole Konami.

I have played both the fifa demo and the pes demo 2.

I have to point out that I need more time with both games because for the first time, fifa has changed their stupid defending system. Maybe for the better? I am not sure yet.

So I need more time.

However, I like to point out the obvious.
People complain about pes 12 being too fast when fifa 12 is faster. It seriously is.

As for tackling.
techboy 11 got it right. Pes 12's defending does need a bit of tweaking, but overall, it's spot on. I also played a 5 a side match last night and there was only 1 successful tackle, AND THIS IS ON A MUCH, MUCH SMALLER PITCH.

I understand that you might not like the game BTW.

As for Goalkeepers. FIFA DOES NOT DO IT RIGHT EITHER.
Play Villa on goal and he will save the same saves as Valdes. That's broken, not to mention the obvious superhuman abilities that they possess.

Yes Pes has other problems with keepers, like the lack of grabbing the ball.

PR3CiSiON said:

People complaining about the games speed and dribbling, isn't that what we loved when the PES series first came about? Having pot shots from ridiculous range and having them rifle into the top corner? Must just be me that isn't picky about this PES, reminds me of the good old PES6 days, when it was a wonderful masterpiece.

Click to expand...

i totally agree with you. on fifa u cant take on players, have i ever saw in a real life game where someone doesnt get taken on........ no u dont. and on fifa u cant really score from outside the box unless u finesse it. how many goals do u see when players power them in from 25 yards. u only hav to look at recent champions league goals to realise that

fifa you can score long shots and free kicks but in pes you can score from anywhere so fifa is more realistic- if you are underpressure your shots will go wide or if your shooting iwth abidal shots will rarely go on target and i think fifa overdo finesse, you can easiy finesse it from the wing with villa so the manuel shooting on fifa is way better than the shooting on pes, even jon murphy admitted it

shaun7 said:

I have played both the fifa demo and the pes demo 2.

I have to point out that I need more time with both games because for the first time, fifa has changed their stupid defending system. Maybe for the better? I am not sure yet.

So I need more time.

However, I like to point out the obvious.
People complain about pes 12 being too fast when fifa 12 is faster. It seriously is.

As for tackling.
techboy 11 got it right. Pes 12's defending does need a bit of tweaking, but overall, it's spot on. I also played a 5 a side match last night and there was only 1 successful tackle, AND THIS IS ON A MUCH, MUCH SMALLER PITCH.

I understand that you might not like the game BTW.

As for Goalkeepers. FIFA DOES NOT DO IT RIGHT EITHER.
Play Villa on goal and he will save the same saves as Valdes. That's broken, not to mention the obvious superhuman abilities that they possess.

Yes Pes has other problems with keepers, like the lack of grabbing the ball.

Click to expand...

Sup Shaun7,

Although i don't always agree with you points, you are a smart dude and from your join date (2005) i know you are true PES fanatic ...but fair. Not like some noobs here who have recently joined and claim they have been playing since ISS. In my opinion, anyone who played ISS was scouring the internet like myself for OF everyday...which lead me to join almost every PES site on the internet.

I have played both demos and i find it difficult to defend in fifa....it is doing my friggin head in.

So if you figure Fifa's new defending out please let me know how.

PES 12 seems similar in terms of defending but more even.. the game plays a lot better than previous releases. I just hate the animations ..but thats just me.

Cheers

Amateur said:

Movement within the space is not possible in PES12; you know how I know? Because unlike you I actually understand what movement within the space actually is.

PES12 offers little gimmicks, movement within space is not a gimmick; here is the fact, direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button; you tell me, what the fuck happens? The player starts moving through space, not within space, through space, even though you are not fucking pressing the sprint button..... GIMMICK.

Instead if insulting a person over what is a fucking video game, you should perhaps understand what you talk about before making an ass of yourself; please do show me a video with the incredible "movement within space" that you talk about..... fucking TWAT.



No, you fucking MORON, real movement within the space will be THE feature when it eventually comes out; obviously, that's not PES12, PES12 is about the "Active AI" and the new off the ball gimmick, PES12 is not about revolutionary features such as movement within the space.

Movement within space is very simple: direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button, the player does not run through space, instead the player moves within space. Until that happens, don't fool yourself or worst try to fool others by telling them that movement within the space is "possible" as if "possible" amounts to something RELEVANT or REVOLUTIONARY.

Please do tell, can I use the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick in order to determine movement within space? Do I have an independent button to determine the timing? Or is the direction of the movement and the timing of the movement determined by the very same button?

Is directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, still enough to simultaneously determine three completely unrelated factors (1st) direction that the player is looking at and (2nd) direction that the player runs towards and (3rd) direction in which the player passes the ball??

You were kind enough to tell me how much of an idiot I am, you even added completely unnecessary smileys to reaffirm how much of a twat you truly are, yet you were not very giving with the actually relevant and objective facts; why is movement within space very very very possible? and why is it not just a gimmick? a similar gimmick to the FIFA tricks system perhaps? Please, do enlighten me with your knowledge....

Click to expand...

I don't think I have a low IQ or anything... in fact 99% of the time I understand what other posters are on abour, but.....

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?