Scripted games (and their frequency in Master League)

To start off with, English is not my native language, but I'm trying my best.

To open the topic with a pretty arrogant statement: I'm one of the better players. In every part game from PES 5 to PES 2011, I managed to become first season league champion in any top league on the highest level of difficulty with the default master league team and from their on proceeded to dominate the league after some transfers and youth players with season two by winning every game with 5 to 10 goals (10 minutes play time).

That's not to brag, I don't need to brag on an internet forum, but to tell you that I know the game by heart and therefore know what I'm talking about.

I'm playing on PS2 and now PS3 and saw some pretty screwed up games, like 2010, where even teams like Barcelona were not able to create chances against defenders like Libermann and Jaric.

Therefore, I'm pleased to see that the AI got better and 2012 is a bit more challenging on the highest level. I need that, because my only motivation, making all these youth players stars, is gone since KONAMI decided to take them out. Why? You leave us with Shimizu and Palmieri every Master League now, when there are 100 different players that could be included, each time shuffled. I miss Orellano, Kaiser, Chapi, Moulin, Bos, and so on.
But that's not my main problem.

Now I'm in my second season, abandoned most starting players and trying to create a nice team, I advanced to Serie A and am on top of the table. I haven't lost a single game since I started. And that's the problem, I fear. The more games I win, the more often I see clearly scripted games which I recognize after 10 seconds play time. At the start of the season maybe every 10 games, now every 2 games.
For those of you that don't know this games, it's like playing rock-paper-scissors against a computer who knows your choiced and responds with the winning move every time.
You can't win a single ball, you can't defend, players let balls pass which have to be intercepted, AI players dribble like better Messis, every deflected ball is dangerous, every direct freekick is an immediate goal, every shot you take, and if it's two meters away from the goal, misses, many normal fouls are a red card, corners are undefendable goals, and so on. It's so evident that it's unbelievable. I replayed such games up to 10 times, only to see what can happen, and it is simply not possible to win such a game. Period.
AI decided to win, and it will win. I somehow score a goal, they respond with two.
I know such games from earlier games, but not so often and so obvious.

I don't want to debate whether these thing exists or not. I have a savestate of a game I tried 10 times, anybody who doesn't believe it can come over to my home and try their (not existing) luck.

The thing is, I'm somehow ok but still furious when this happens once or twice in a season. Things like this shouldn't happen, but since they do happen, let them happen rarely and ok, I can simulate this match or do it on a low difficulty, because I DON'T ACCEPT TO LOSE A GAME when I don't have a fair chance to win.
But that's not possible anymore, since it's happening every second game. It didn't happen when I won every game with Bayern Munich in my first Master League.

So to summarize:

A) There are games that can't be won, and this is decided before the game is started.
B) The more games I win/don't lose with a team that shouldn't win so many games, the more often A) will happen.

That is just not acceptable. When in real life, Barcelona wins 20 games in a row, they will start to lose a game, eventually. But they won't lose because the whole team decides to do nothing but watching their opponents score goals, they will lose because one day, the other team will be better, or have more luck, or both.

Either implement this, or let it be. If I win every game, improve the AI. If I still win every game, so be it. If I score 5 goals every game, no luck will help the opponent, so I won't be losing any game unless I'm playing badly. But you know what? That's ok. I can pick my own challenges, like starting with a new team, only having players with certain traits, e.g. one nationality, and so on.

But don't force me to finally lose a game just because it can't be that I win every game.

Before destroying this game, I finally gave in and lost such a match and didn't replay. As much as I hated to do such thing, I'm excited to see whether this solves the problem, for some time. If it doesn't, I will quit playing this game and this series after putting approximately 1000 hours into every part of it.

Nope. Only two games after my loss, the one game in between being against AC Milan which I won 2:0, another game, against Juventus, where suddenly my whole defense is screwed up. Of course the direct free kick from 35 meters distance went in, and of course my striker is not able to score two meters in front of an open goal after a nice cross from my winger.

I'll try a few more times just to confirm that I'm not permitted to win or draw this match, and afterwards this game will be trashed.

KONAMI probably won't care, since I already bought this game, and since only few good players will notice this ridiculous behavior and draw their consequences.

I have to agree, KONAMI seem far more interested in scripting the game then providing actual control.
How many times does the ball bounce and magically go straight to a player (usually the opposition), it doesn't just figure where the ball bounce and leave at that.
I find when you defend it sometimes won't let you select one of the defence, usually the one you want to be and you let in a goal, not because you defended badly but because it's chosen that you simply cant be that player.
Or when the ball is about to be intercepted after a pass, your player is running towards it, you can see they're about to over run it but you're simply not allowed to select them, they just blindly run on.
Then as the OP states, sometimes it just chooses that you're not allowed to score, you can't win the ball no matter what, your players almost seem to want them to score by taking up stupid positions, the lowliest centre forward is now as good as Messi, a shot from point blank range is saved every time by thier goalkeeper but a long range shot goes straight past yours, it's just stupid.

KONAMI need to completely remove ALL scripting, it should be about how we play and playing the WAY we want to play with out being forced to just accept you're going to lose this game / tackle / ball because the script has decided that's what's going to happen.

True. I really miss the ability to have control over my players. As stajin said, those situations apper sooo often, when I just can't switch to the desired player (or even ANY player between opponent attacker and my goal..it only switches betwenn 2 players running after the attacker -_-).
On top of that, they removed the one "control" aspect that made 2011 improve (and special compared to FIFA...that's the aspect that even FIFA players appreciated about PES2011): Free pass control. I know, you can set pass support to 0, but then you can't shoot a single pass with any power higher than my grandma's shooting power. Big step back.
At least they "improved" the reaction time, such that a stumbeling player can defend quickly instead of not being able to do anything for about 5seconds.
@Pibonacci
Maybe you can upload a video of one of those unbeatable matches on youtube, to prove your point ^^

It's just so frustrating that sometimes it just decides "this is how we want it to go" and then that's it.
Take when the opposition goalie has the ball. See that player out on the wing.
The one you could run and mark and get the ball from? Well tough cos they've decided your players aren't allowed to run? I mean, really, wtf?
Or you header back to your goalie, who could easily get it but it decides you HAVE to get it with that other defender running back to goal, the goalie won't come?
I second the youtube video. Just seems to be the same old shit every release, KONAMI have thier vision of football and have decided to do it thier way rather than listen to thier customers. For instance, how many releases before they fixed the referee?

While uploading a video is a nice idea, it's not possible anymore. On the hand, I don't have the technical options to create such a video, on the other hand I destroyed the DVD now. Not in rage, just so I'm not tempted to ever try this game again.
My theory that my team is to bad went overboard after the next transfer period when I bought enough good players so I'm actually better than fiorentina. Italian Cup, 1:1 in the first match, 1:0 lead in the second (And I already saw that it's scripted again). 5 minutes overtime when my goalkeeper throw the ball directly to the opposing striker (never have seen that before), who luckily didn't manage to score. But the AI doesn't care, a freekick is given where none of my defenders was even in range. Of course it's a goal.
In the 110th minute, Gilardino decides to walk through my whole defense, outdribbling 6,7 players and scoring.
That's it, I'm never playing PES 2012 again.

I stopped playing because of it being scripted, but since installing 'goalgerds, chimps, and klashmanns' option fle, it seems less scripted. When the CPU scores it feels more because i have been poor or they have played well more than because they were destined to score.

That is on ps3, not sure what you play on.

stajin said:

It's just so frustrating that sometimes it just decides "this is how we want it to go" and then that's it.
Take when the opposition goalie has the ball. See that player out on the wing.
The one you could run and mark and get the ball from? Well tough cos they've decided your players aren't allowed to run? I mean, really, wtf?

Click to expand...

Yep. And not to forget that none of your attackers can run back to defend!

stajin said:

Or you header back to your goalie, who could easily get it but it decides you HAVE to get it with that other defender running back to goal, the goalie won't come?

Click to expand...

Don't get started on the goalie...

stajin said:

I second the youtube video. Just seems to be the same old shit every release, KONAMI have thier vision of football and have decided to do it thier way rather than listen to thier customers. For instance, how many releases before they fixed the referee?

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I can imagine that Konami needed to rewrite the whole code, as simple "improvements" probably couldn't fix some problems here and there (becaus it simply wouldn't be possible without changing whole code). But that's just an assumption.
I think this year Konami actually too much to their customers...but in the wrong way. All those "little" things/requests have gotten little consideration (although it's the little things that make the game frustating). There have been a lot of request to make the game easier (i.e. free-kicks, beginner-friendly,..), which is a step closer to FIFA...which is a significant request, and they fulfilled it (made lots of things simpler). But the step closer to FIFA is a step in the wrong direction...away from a nice football simulation, rather towards arcade. "Simpler" doesn't always mean "better". True, it's easier to play than 2011, more fluid, more goals (should mean more fun), but you loose information (i.e. development in ML, BAL), control and realism (offense is godlike now, goalie still crap, defense less attention payd to than to offense -> crap). I hope the next patch fixes some issues here and there...

I think the thing they need to get into thier heads is at no point, for any reason should we NOT be able to control a player in the way we want and at NO POINT should the computer AI become superhuman or be allowed to cheat. Don't add artificial barriers and call that gameplay - if the goalkeepers too slow to throw that ball out before you mark the man FIX IT, don't just say "screw it, let's make it so they can't run".
We don't want to be hammering X to throw it out when the keeper got the ball to find it's decided the opposition must be allowed to run back a bit. If they end up in situation they couldn't defend against if you throw it out then FIX IT, don't stop me throwing it!
And as for the OPs point, if I can't get the ball it should be because I've defended badly or made the wrong choice. If I have 3 players on one and he magically just runs like they aren't there it's just ridiculous!
And how about obstruction? Do you guys not know this rule?
You can be running to a ball just to have a defender block you and then carry on blocking you for ages till they get the ball? Anyone ever seen a free kick for it?
Or when you're running away from the defense, they grab you and hold on, you're stumbling, you carry on running, they keep on holding and NOTHING from the ref. wtf?
How about when you're standing on the post for a free kick. All your player has to do is RESPOND TO YOU PRESSING THE CLEAR BUTTON!!! I mean, ffs, it just sails over there head because KONAMI have decided you're not allowed to do that?
It just beggars belief thier playtesters aren't picking this stuff up?

^Well said stajin.

That's my biggest complaint at well. Whomever I'm controlling, should never be taken over by the AI. Built for freedom? Really!

With the technology in todays games, IMHO there should never be a need for scripting.

stajin said:

I think the thing they need to get into thier heads is at no point, for any reason should we NOT be able to control a player in the way we want and at NO POINT should the computer AI become superhuman or be allowed to cheat. Don't add artificial barriers and call that gameplay - if the goalkeepers too slow to throw that ball out before you mark the man FIX IT, don't just say "screw it, let's make it so they can't run".
We don't want to be hammering X to throw it out when the keeper got the ball to find it's decided the opposition must be allowed to run back a bit. If they end up in situation they couldn't defend against if you throw it out then FIX IT, don't stop me throwing it!
And as for the OPs point, if I can't get the ball it should be because I've defended badly or made the wrong choice. If I have 3 players on one and he magically just runs like they aren't there it's just ridiculous!
And how about obstruction? Do you guys not know this rule?
You can be running to a ball just to have a defender block you and then carry on blocking you for ages till they get the ball? Anyone ever seen a free kick for it?
Or when you're running away from the defense, they grab you and hold on, you're stumbling, you carry on running, they keep on holding and NOTHING from the ref. wtf?
How about when you're standing on the post for a free kick. All your player has to do is RESPOND TO YOU PRESSING THE CLEAR BUTTON!!! I mean, ffs, it just sails over there head because KONAMI have decided you're not allowed to do that?
It just beggars belief thier playtesters aren't picking this stuff up?

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Excellent post.

Like was said earlier, the entire system is broken. I hope this patch fixes the issues, but I highly doubt it. These issues have been plaguing this series for the entire PS3 generation and as a result, FIFA has caught up and surpassed them in GAMEPLAY and FREEDOM.

I mean the issues really are too long to list but the most prevalent ones are passing, crossing, defending, scripted AI defender movements, cursor changing, refereeing, goalkeeping, dribbling, shooting....with every single one of these things, there is some auto-gimmick that allows you to succeed or fail (with very little user control regardless of input).

FFS, they have managed to break every single worthwhile feature in a football game while dressing it up with silly auto-play and animations. I feel like I have LESS CONTROL than I ever have.

I've said before that even human vs. human, I don't feel like I'm playing my opponent. I feel like I'm fighting against all of konami's stupid animations all the time.

The problem with konami's AI is that it is only as advanced as the people who program it. In this case, it seems their football IQ is equivalent to that of your average 12 year old football fan...

That is the real shame.

.......Or, maybe that's who they are marketing to.

If that's the case, let me be the first to commend you on trying to market a football game to a younger audience with just about fuck all for licenses and your sole competitor has them all. And enough marketing dollars to make sure everybody knows it.

Brilliant....Absolutely brilliant.

I believe thier biggest problem is the PS2 - they still support it...
If this things written for the lowest common denominator then that means somewhere in thier design they have to have a 'simple' system for the ps2 to fall back on to be able to cope, seems thier paying the price. The AI and animation system is just the PS2 one souped up IMHO, they keep on adding and tweaking to it rather than writing an actual current gen game.
You can't tell me the SAME BUGS would keep appearing year in, year out if thier current design worked properly and wasn't a rehash of a design that DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY!

They need new blood, maybe a new producer with the vision to move forward instead of clinging on to the old code and instead of thinking of new ideas and plugging it in to this monstrosity of a football game, get your idea and write something NEW that will actually do it! Not this half arsed attempt that almost does it!

Don't get me wrong when it works it's by far the best football game, but when it starts messing up...

I agree, scripting is and has been a major issue.
There might be people that like it. Some people enjoy arcade racing games. But they should have a remove scripting option.
Some people make the mistake of thinking you are complaining about it making it too hard. But it can work both ways.
I don't want to play an interactive story game, but a game that is free, user defined with the flow coming from player stats, form etc and luck.


This isn't only an issue in PES as FIFA also has it.

I just want the controls to do as I want *all* the time. I don't want to lose the ability to run because they have the keeper has the ball or they have a free kick.

I don't want my player to mindlessly run after a pass that it's obvious the opposition is going to get, I *could* run and intercept the ball or move into a defensive position, but no, I can't do that because KONAMI have decided so.

There's just too much interference in control and play!
I should be able to choose *any* player at any time but I *have* to be the ones KONAMI have decided, there's usually one defender you cant be till it's too late.

Or how about the centre backs? I've seen them standing in the D, right in a good place to intercept if the forward runs and then I see them run out of the way, literally positioning themselves behind or to the side of the attacker then forcing you to run, wtf?

I'm of the opinion that KONAMI must know these problems but they simply aren't going to fix them. Just like everyone complained about the refs in 09, 10 and 11 and it was ignored till now (but I still find when I get the ball it's a foul, when they get it, it's fine) they just keep plodding on. And slowly, bit by bit, FIFA moves on, listens to what they are being told by thier fans. It won't be until PES sales drop (which they will) that they will listen.

Maybe it's time to drop Seabass and find someone who has a new vision and a new approach and who will write a new, WORKING engine, who doesn't see removing the players control as gameplay.

TL;DR You can't polish a turd

stajin said:

I just want the controls to do as I want *all* the time. I don't want to lose the ability to run because they have the keeper has the ball or they have a free kick.

I don't want my player to mindlessly run after a pass that it's obvious the opposition is going to get, I *could* run and intercept the ball or move into a defensive position, but no, I can't do that because KONAMI have decided so.

There's just too much interference in control and play!
I should be able to choose *any* player at any time but I *have* to be the ones KONAMI have decided, there's usually one defender you cant be till it's too late.

Or how about the centre backs? I've seen them standing in the D, right in a good place to intercept if the forward runs and then I see them run out of the way, literally positioning themselves behind or to the side of the attacker then forcing you to run, wtf?

I'm of the opinion that KONAMI must know these problems but they simply aren't going to fix them. Just like everyone complained about the refs in 09, 10 and 11 and it was ignored till now (but I still find when I get the ball it's a foul, when they get it, it's fine) they just keep plodding on. And slowly, bit by bit, FIFA moves on, listens to what they are being told by thier fans. It won't be until PES sales drop (which they will) that they will listen.

Maybe it's time to drop Seabass and find someone who has a new vision and a new approach and who will write a new, WORKING engine, who doesn't see removing the players control as gameplay.

TL;DR You can't polish a turd

Click to expand...

Amen to this. Worst thing about it is some matches it's more responsive than others. It's the most artificial way to ramp up difficulty.

stajin said:

I just want the controls to do as I want *all* the time. I don't want to lose the ability to run because they have the keeper has the ball or they have a free kick.

I don't want my player to mindlessly run after a pass that it's obvious the opposition is going to get, I *could* run and intercept the ball or move into a defensive position, but no, I can't do that because KONAMI have decided so.

There's just too much interference in control and play!
I should be able to choose *any* player at any time but I *have* to be the ones KONAMI have decided, there's usually one defender you cant be till it's too late.

Or how about the centre backs? I've seen them standing in the D, right in a good place to intercept if the forward runs and then I see them run out of the way, literally positioning themselves behind or to the side of the attacker then forcing you to run, wtf?

I'm of the opinion that KONAMI must know these problems but they simply aren't going to fix them. Just like everyone complained about the refs in 09, 10 and 11 and it was ignored till now (but I still find when I get the ball it's a foul, when they get it, it's fine) they just keep plodding on. And slowly, bit by bit, FIFA moves on, listens to what they are being told by thier fans. It won't be until PES sales drop (which they will) that they will listen.

Maybe it's time to drop Seabass and find someone who has a new vision and a new approach and who will write a new, WORKING engine, who doesn't see removing the players control as gameplay.

TL;DR You can't polish a turd

Click to expand...

Spot on.

But I expect this in matches against the computer. It's completely unacceptable when playing another user/online.

Excellent and precise posts. I really hope someone form Konami can come on here to explain themselves. I dont go to work five days a week just to spend £40 of my money on what is practically a DVD of my teams most ridiculous, unlucky and unexplainable losses. Good games reward and then subsequently challenge a player when they succeed at or master a game. PES 2012 simply takes the 'playing' of the game away from you for no other reason I can think of other than that the programmers believe that's what we as customers want. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.
Just as an example of how ridiculous it is, during a game I was a goal down with about 2 minutes to play, I miraculously broke through and lay a pass across the six yard box to my unmarked striker in the middle of an open goal about 2 or 3 yards out. I pressed the shoot button......lightly......Van Nistlerooy, who by the way is far more experienced in scoring goals than I am and I totally respect his decision to do this, then lifted himself up about 2 foot in the air and proceeded to perform a sliding f***ing tackle, letting the ball roll underneath him to safety. I rest my case, this is just one example of hundreds of stupid, game spoiling, scripted incidents. Sort it out Konami, you will not be having my money ever again.

I get more and more pissed when passing and players just leave it. The power bar is fucked up to

Cheated!!!

Hi there,

I play PES since PES6 and i always played on topplayer (and i may say that i'm a good player) but what i see this year i can't believe my eyes... At every PES edition i got the feeling when i win that it was because i was better then the CPU and when i loose because i diserved it and played bad. Ok, sometimes i play good and i lost but thats football!!! But this year i feel cheated!!!

-CPU scores almost every freekick from every angle.
-all the CPU defenders are fasters then my fastest attackers.
-every time i clear the ball or long pass returns into CPU foot
-every move i plan or trick i do, it's like they can read my mind. They ALWAYS know what i want to do.
-most of my shots are sooo slow with no power
-CPU shots are always dangerous or goal
-most of the shots are going to the middle of the goalkeeper (and yes i press right or left)
-the new defending system is NOT trustable
-it's like every team is full of Messis or Ronaldos
-the CPU dribbles me like a knife true butter
-...

I hope KONAMI listens to the fans and fix this problems because i never felt sooo bad with a PES game :crymore:

Sorry for my frustration

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