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Pes2013 Thoughts

HerbertMoon

Registered User
Greetings, I'm long time veteran of PES, but this is my first venture back since PES2010 (FIFA 11+12 last two years for me).

I'm glad to see the game is playing well again, for the first time in my opinion since PES5.

However I only play PES for the Master League. And I'm afraid they have royally ballsed it up. It seems to play quite well, but the ONLY appeal for me of ML of old was to make a club and take it to the top, and to have total control - like a strategy game.

I dislike the tedious cut scenes and the new managers system. I think both of these are a misstep by Konami.

The problem with adding managers is that you are constantly reminded that PES has very few leagues or divisions, and the whole experience doesn't feel anywhere near as realistic as FIFA's Career Mode.

For me master league is about the technical/strategic exercise of building a club and winning matches and trophies. PES 4/5 had a sporting purity that this version has lost, pandering to the tabloid world of Football Manager.

Please Konami, keep the gameplay, but fix the Master League!!!

P.S. If anyone has worked up a patch to remove the cutscenes please point me in its direction!
 

HerbertMoon

Registered User
Updated impressions:

Things that are starting to annoy me:

> Keepers are beyond hopeless yet again: If they're not tipping the ball into their own net, shots are going straight through them from 25 yards. Not as bad as 2011 but still annoying. Lloris is completely useless in 2013.

> Players always take just enough touches to allow AI defenders to get into perfect position. Obviously a cheat but a sign of how week the programming has been for the last 8 years.

> Master League has been more or less ruined by Konami. There is a good game in there waiting to get out, hidden under annoying cut-scenes and abysmal menu design.

> Tactics setup is as bad as ever for this generation. Why they don't just bring back the tactics setup from PES 5 is beyond me. Also lack of tactical options (4?!) is also fairly week for this day and age.

> Lack of lower leagues. If Konami wanted to make Master League truely great, a good place to start would be adding lower leagues. Even if they are full of fake teams like some of the current leagues, being able to start from D3/4 and work your way up would be highly addictive. And this is not something difficult to implement in the game at all. I would even settle for 3 leagues of fake teams like they are now.

> Player movement is next to non-existent and quite bad when it does happen. Players in PES of this generation have no awareness what is going on around them and are prisoners of a poorly made animation system. Better/some movement would be a good improvement for next year.

> Defending: Although useable the defensive system this year is badly conceived. Making a player put a leg out is more difficult than it should be.

> AI speed cheat: Lugano is not faster than Bale. End of.

Things I like:

> Brazilian League! I'm about to start a new ML with a created club in Brazil. Should be very interesting and different from the normal Eurocentric ML.

> Lots of new stadiums esp. S American ones.

Conclusion: PES2013 is the best game of this generation (which is like saying TB is the best diseases). But considering Konami have been making this game since PES7 this is a pretty poor return. Although it is playable, it is not better than PES4/5 which are about nine years old now. Pretty poor performance, all things considered.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
I'm glad to see the game is playing well again, for the first time in my opinion since PES5.

Being th hypocrite I am, I am going to call that 'speculative and highly subjective'.

For me master league is about the technical/strategic exercise of building a club and winning matches and trophies. PES 4/5 had a sporting purity that this version has lost, pandering to the tabloid world of Football Manager.

I've personally never been a sucker for ML ever since BAL got introduced, but I usually play a few seasons each release... I fail to see what has declined with this game mode?

Updated impressions:
Things that are starting to annoy me:

> Keepers are beyond hopeless yet again: If they're not tipping the ball into their own net, shots are going straight through them from 25 yards. Not as bad as 2011 but still annoying. Lloris is completely useless in 2013.

I don't really see the big difference between PES and FIFA in this area, and they're both a bit off. It's been a never ending story with keepers being unrealistically good or bad ever since the dawn of both series. Since patch 1.03 I generally think the keepers in PES are OK though.

> Players always take just enough touches to allow AI defenders to get into perfect position. Obviously a cheat but a sign of how week the programming has been for the last 8 years.

Actually, if you watch a live football match this is what happens there as well.

> Master League has been more or less ruined by Konami. There is a good game in there waiting to get out, hidden under annoying cut-scenes and abysmal menu design.

If cut-scenes and menu design is the biggest bungle then I have no pity for you. I personally think that the main issue is with Form Arrows and all that follows in its wake. Tenacity for example, which I will elaborate some further down.

> Tactics setup is as bad as ever for this generation. Why they don't just bring back the tactics setup from PES 5 is beyond me. Also lack of tactical options (4?!) is also fairly week for this day and age.

You have tactical options in abundance to be fair. If you want a defensively minded midfielder you pick someone like Parker, and if you want an offensive one you pick something else.

I don't know how much you've been working with real life individuals, but if you ask an offensive minded dribbler to do the job of a water carrier he will generally do it poorly if at all. Football players in general react like men in general, they won't really change because their wife or coach tell them to and expecting it of them is just cruel and insensitive.

So it's quite simple, you have to use your tactical spectre by picking the right player for the right job rather than putting any player on the field and pick the right settings for him to do as you wish.

Personally I want back the system from PES2011.

> Lack of lower leagues. If Konami wanted to make Master League truely great, a good place to start would be adding lower leagues. Even if they are full of fake teams like some of the current leagues, being able to start from D3/4 and work your way up would be highly addictive. And this is not something difficult to implement in the game at all. I would even settle for 3 leagues of fake teams like they are now.

I'd like a bunch of leagues and divisions myself, doesn't even need to be licensed in my opinion. In fact, the fewer licenses this game got the better.

> Player movement is next to non-existent and quite bad when it does happen. Players in PES of this generation have no awareness what is going on around them and are prisoners of a poorly made animation system. Better/some movement would be a good improvement for next year.

The problem is that the coding in this area is just fine but it gets destroyed along the way when they failed to understand how their own abilities system works.

Tenacity is explained within the game how much a player can withstand fatigue both in a game and during successive games. The problem is that this ability's main feature is that it directly affects the work rate. A player with lower than green Tenacity (including form arrows) will be useless and unresponsive to its environments.

The quick fix is opening the DB in an editor with Global Editing capabilities and halve everybody's Tenacity (-50%) then bump it up by +45. That means that everyone above ~90 will get a slight nerf and everybody below ~90 will get a boost. Most players will end up around 80 though.

I could go on about this for several pages, but it simply shakes the game loose and unleashes the games potential. Try it!

> Defending: Although useable the defensive system this year is badly conceived. Making a player put a leg out is more difficult than it should be.

I don't find it particularly difficult to double press the 'standing tackle' button. Holding it will pressure and holding it with 'Special Controls' will contain the player in possession.

> AI speed cheat: Lugano is not faster than Bale. End of.

Supercancel makes the 'mud' your fast players run in occasionally just disappear. In general it is the most important 'move' in PES ever and it has many uses. I believe it's there to let 'skilled' players 'override' the game's inherent wish to make all human vs human games a draw.

[youtube]e1eGn_rWAQQ[/youtube]

Conclusion: PES2013 is the best game of this generation (which is like saying TB is the best diseases). But considering Konami have been making this game since PES7 this is a pretty poor return. Although it is playable, it is not better than PES4/5 which are about nine years old now. Pretty poor performance, all things considered.

I'm not sure what to say... I'm not ecstatic about the game but I think the fix is much simpler than most people make it to be. There are highlights in this game and it's not only the best of this generation but the best ever. That being said, there has never been released a truly good football game ever before, and it still hasn't at the time I write this.


PS. PES5 used to be my favorite and was for years but I hadn't actually played it since forever... I fired it up sometime this year and honestly, it sucks. It was good back then because we hadn't played anything better but it doesn't change the fact that it sucks in every possible way. Considering that I don't even care about the dated graphics at all. PES2011 and 2013 has been positives for me so unless they fuck something up royally (like PES2010 and 2012) the next version will also be an improvement.

PPS. The best way to destroy a game is to go on a board like this and read everything everyone else hates about the game.
 

Gtks

Registered User
The problem is that the coding in this area is just fine but it gets destroyed along the way when they failed to understand how their own abilities system works.
Tenacity is explained within the game how much a player can withstand fatigue both in a game and during successive games. The problem is that this ability's main feature is that it directly affects the work rate. A player with lower than green Tenacity (including form arrows) will be useless and unresponsive to its environments.
The quick fix is opening the DB in an editor with Global Editing capabilities and halve everybody's Tenacity (-50%) then bump it up by +45. That means that everyone above ~90 will get a slight nerf and everybody below ~90 will get a boost. Most players will end up around 80 though.
I could go on about this for several pages, but it simply shakes the game loose and unleashes the games potential. Try it!

You could avoid calling “hypocrite” someone because he posted something you don’t like.

There is no green Tenacity and here are no form arrows!? The arrows are showing the condition of the player as I wrote in here:

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=93658

And in here some other factors than effect the condition:

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=92964

I don’t approve and your quick ‘fix’ using an editor to add +45 points to tenacity for every player, this is not a way to play a game!? You could tell them always to check the condition arrows before a game and if they see something out of the ordinary to put a player for 1-2 games on the bench. You could tell them to buy recovery trainers from the shop for some important players and their first 5 millions they get to invest them in a 5 million athletic trainer, I always prefer the one with max points in form in strength training, they will see significant improvement for sure, trust me.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Gtks it's time you learned ENGLISH before you say something again. I called MYSELF a hypocrite you illiterate moron. Furthermore, I did not particularly like or dislike the post I was replying to either.

You don't have to approve anything to be honest, and you missed half of the suggestion anyway.


Detailed description of just one of the things you clearly didn't understand;

- Form arrows are completely random


-Taken from official KONAMI PES5 manual

So what I meant by (including form arrows) I simply meant + and - the percentage that form adds or subtracts.


In the future I'd appreciated if you actually understood what I said before you went on to educate me.
 
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Gtks

Registered User
The only comment i have for you is follow the things that i wrote and you will receive a total different 'randomness' for a statistic form.

The screen shot i upload in one the links i gave shows i ALWAYS manage to control the condition in my team pretty well.

Case closed.

PS i forgot





In a cap or a champions league they get a boost from the Athletic Trainer and don't be surprised if you see them ALL with red (BEST CONDITION) Arrows.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
I am not talking about CONDITION at all. I am talking about WORK RATE. - Getting the players to move around and actually do something rather than just standing around doing nothing. WORK RATE is the hidden attribute with TENACITY which you would also know if you understood anything I've written in the past. It's not so difficult to figure out either and I am not the only person that knows this.

If I actually understood half of the 'thinks' you rambled down in those 3-4+ incredibly long PM's then maybe I could follow them but I suspect you are talking about one thing and I about something entirely different which has been the case every time you've been involved.

Note that I have never said you were wrong, I've just said that you aren't even talking about the same thing that I am so it's no point in discussing it further with you.


Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that I struggle with this game. I do not even the slighest. I want it to be MORE difficult rather than easier and by globally imcreasing Tenacity you actually get a more difficult game in many ways. From what I understand in the countless PM's you've sent me you've been reading a lot of my posts on different subjects and it's blatantly obvious that you haven't got a fucking clue about what I've actually said in any of them.

You may stop replying but you're in no position to 'close the case'.

PS. Stick to one subject per paragraph in those long PM's in the future unless you're trying to confuse on purpose.
 
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Looms

Banned
Sabatasso failed to explain how Gtks got so many red arrows in 1 screen shot.

I also do believe case is closed.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Sabatasso failed to explain how Gtks got so many red arrows in 1 screen shot.

I also do believe case is closed.

I didn't try because it's irrelevant.

This is like discussing how to cook meat and someone jumps in with fish recipes and 'win' the discussion. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING! That's why I didn't put much emphasis in 'explaining' it in the first place. You cannot have a discussion with someone who isn't discussing the same thing quite simply.


BTW it's not as complicated to get great form across the team. Each arrow has a certain percentage to appear and this is what you can do to tip the scale in your favor. That being said, before a CL final you will most likely have less red arrows than before a regular league match.

1. Athletic trainer
2. Individual Conditioning trainers
3. Win matches
4. Don't bench too many 'stars' so they get unhappy and disrupt the squad

This is hardly anything new, which is why it wasn't a part of the discussion in the first place.


Lastly; please point me to where I said I stuggled with form arrows and that I needed it explained.
 
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Fortun56

Banned
This thread is Hilarius.

You were mumbling something about green tenacity, using editors to add points what was intentions to make the tenacity red? It looks to me Gtks had this condition in the team before playing a cup and champion league final.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
This thread is Hilarius.

You were mumbling something about green tenacity, using editors to add points what was intentions to make the tenacity red? It looks to me Gtks had this condition in the team before playing a cup and champion league final.

I never said "red tenacity" either, which only proves that you didn't really read. Congrats, your first post was a stupid one!

Tenacity doesn't have anything to do with form arrows which is why I said that it's irrelevant what kind of form arrows the greek guy has at any given time. What tenacity does is that it makes your players work harder on the pitch which instead of just standing around doing nothing which is often the case in this game. The Tenacity boost actually help the AI much more than it helps the player and in BAL it's extremely noticable because your player doesn't have to score or assist all the goals for your team anymore. That in turn means it's harder to make huge impact on matches and to become a regular first team player at a good club.

Once again, Form arrows is one discussion and Tenacity is another. The form arrow does increase or decrease the Tenacity but it does that regardless of any editing. Now you might think that modifying Tenacity will make the game easier, well it doesn't. It makes it harder but in a good way. More runs, more duels, more action and the midfield is a battle zone like it should be. The players looks like they really want to win the ball and not just the two players in the duel but the surrounding ones too.

Also notice that I said -50% (+45) that means Tenacity/2 +45 so a player with 90 Tenacity before edit will have 90/2=45 (+45) =90 while a player with 60 will get 60/2=30 (+45) =75
Green is considered 'normal' form and any player that doesn't do jack shit on the pitch, which is basically everyone below 70 which is a huge part of the database, wouldn't in reality have anything to do as a sportsman. If a player simply has to have orange or red form to actually bother doing some running, then I'd say something is wrong.

In a cap or a champions league they get a boost from the Athletic Trainer and don't be surprised if you see them ALL with red (BEST CONDITION) Arrows.

You keep going on about condition while I am talking about something else (TENACITY HELLO??)... would you consider an English course any time soon please?
 

Gtks

Registered User
I will ask from any one to stop harassing Sabatasso, is not funny anymore.

Form is a number that a player has and one of the factors that effect the condition of the player. Tenacity is another factor that does the same and there are many more, search my posts. All Sebatasoo does is to create new mistakes "green tenacity (including form arrows)", "The form arrow does increase or decrease the Tenacity..." trying to cover the old mistakes. He events 'complicated' formulas to cover his tracks and suggest a revolutionary 'new' way of playing Pess by "locking the edit.bin...", using editors to change "the GREEN tenacity", etc...

As he wrote in other threads has many years to play Pess, he can't provide 1 screen shot!? The only thing he does is to gather pieces from other posters to support these bizarre theories. Now he discovered Tenacity is really important, I suspect he got this from my posts.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Why would i have to provide a screen shot? What do you want pictures of?

Seriously, I never knew you existed until you barraged me with PM's. I'll give you one thing though, you're incredibly good at understanding nothing.


I will ask from any one to stop harassing Sabatasso, is not funny anymore.

Gee, thanks! (I bet the sarcasm goes right over a certain someone's head...)

If there was any attempts at harassments going on here I think someone needs a course from a true master in the arts... though I do find this thread highly comical and entertaining.

[MENTION=205595]Gtks[/MENTION], I will tone down my aggressive posting for your sake. I think the mission you're on to revive the PES community and the growing reputation you've explained to me in detail in PM's are and important and noble quest. Since you believe I scare away all potential posters and players with my rash behavior I have come to the conclusion and stepping back a few notches to leave you the space you need to create this PES Nirvana. I thank you deeply for making me see the light!

Good luck, peace be with you and amen.
 

OCKRASS

Registered User
Form is a number that a player has and one of the factors that effect the condition of the player....

You are 100% correct!

Form is the basic but yet the most important factor that directly affects the performance of players in PES. You have actually shown the basic settings to accomplish these changes.....it is not that complicated.

peace
 
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