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Advanced Formations (Images)

Han

Registered User
JMZ, I guess you use the formations in another way than I do.
As I don't see a particular 'all out attack' I think you just use the formation which beats the opposition best? Maybe formation B is a defensive formation, but formation A looks like midfield superiority and maybe the default is attacking, but not all out attack... what do you do with 10 minutes to play and 0-1 down?
I would also like to see some explanation about the three, like I tried with mine, is that possible? :)
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
Han said:
JMZ, I guess you use the formations in another way than I do.
As I don't see a particular 'all out attack' I think you just use the formation which beats the opposition best?
I use the formations in many different ways, just depends on the players in a team.
I would use an all out setup for someone with lots of attacking players, like Classic Brazil, or Real Madrid (coming soon). But with most teams I try and replicate how they actually play (to a degree).
I don't take any notice of the opposition usually, I just concentrate on my own game. A well balanced 4-4-2 is good against any formation, it has everything, and in variations is by far my favourite.

Han said:
Maybe formation B is a defensive formation, but formation A looks like midfield superiority and maybe the default is attacking, but not all out attack...
Formation B is a defensive formation (for emergencies only, I don't like defensive footy, but if I'm 2-1 up with minutes to go...)
Formation A is very attacking, with everyone but the defence joining the attacks.
The default is attacking, and the 'all-outness' required is controlled by the manual L2 + R1/R2 team aggression thing.

Han said:
what do you do with 10 minutes to play and 0-1 down?
I would also like to see some explanation about the three, like I tried with mine, is that possible? :)
On the very rare occasion this happens, I will push up and go for it in Formation A (in this case, with this team)
But to be honest, the nature of my game yields very few 1-0 score lines. I'm either winning 5-1, or getting beat 4-3. The scientific equation for this phenomena is: jMz + PES4 + Brian Cloughs 'just play football' attitude = Goals.

I used to do big write ups to go with the formations, but after a while, I kind of figured they speak for themselves, you described correctly while asking about them.
 

observer

Registered User
As usual brilliant work, jMz !
The way you praise this formation setup makes me really want to give a shot.
I will try this out first thing in the morning. Although I always thought that I always perform better with 3 guys in the front, as it really stretches the congested defense. Guess it is time to try out something new with only 2 CFs in the front.

Regarding your default formation, do you find any problem with defense? What I noticed with offensive side back is that when they run forward, I end up defending with barely 3 players (My 2 CBs, and maybe DMF) which gets to be risky sometimes. This should not be a problem with your formation A and B, as 2 DMFs in A and 2 side Midfeilds in B should provide more coverage to the sides and in the back.

As Han mentioned, as formation B is clearly defensive, I don't see much of a difference in offense intensity between the default and formation A. Hmm, maybe i will add all out attack formation to this. Mentioning this, is it possible to have 4 formations rather than the usual 3....maybe we are asking too much from konami :D

This is the first time I see you have "line defense". what difference does it make?


I should be able to analayze this more after I give it a shot....

keep it up, Guys...and thanks again James. ;)
 

yannh

Registered User
Dear Jmz et al

Thank you very much, when I first looked at this thread, I printed off a couple of formations put them in my ML 3* found out that I tend to go ball chasing far too much to use three at the back.

Have returned, looked at all the wisdom and applied some of it. Am getting a lot more opportunities on goal (my finishing needs some finishing touches).

The formation which is closest to what I played with is Formation A for Barcelona posted by Jmz.

Many thanks once again.
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
observer said:
As usual brilliant work, jMz !
The way you praise this formation setup makes me really want to give a shot.
I will try this out first thing in the morning. Although I always thought that I always perform better with 3 guys in the front, as it really stretches the congested defense. Guess it is time to try out something new with only 2 CFs in the front.
It works for me mate...

observer said:
Regarding your default formation, do you find any problem with defense? What I noticed with offensive side back is that when they run forward, I end up defending with barely 3 players (My 2 CBs, and maybe DMF) which gets to be risky sometimes.
I am very strong at defending, so I tend not to waste my players by sitting them in the box, if a striker/thruogh ball does break through my midfield, he has to get past my last man, which won't be easy. And by the time he has tried dribbling past,my other players have got back anyway. If I was bad at defending I would use more and keep them back, but I can balance it off quite well so I don't really need 4 back all game. Full backs are for attacking!

observer said:
As Han mentioned, as formation B is clearly defensive, I don't see much of a difference in offense intensity between the default and formation A.
You don't need alternate formations to push up or defend, you can do it with the manual bar (near your player names in game)
I use the default for most attacking, and have the 5 in midfield for special circumstances, like playing against my mate using Inter.
As for the defensive one, that's for emergencies only, defending is for wimps.

observer said:
This is the first time I see you have "line defense". what difference does it make?
Just makes the defence work in a line....


observer said:
I should be able to analayze this more after I give it a shot....

keep it up, Guys...and thanks again James. ;)
The default set up is so good, you'll rarely find the need to change, unless you are in a stalemate with a difficult opponent.
And no problem...
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
yannh said:
Dear Jmz et al

Thank you very much, when I first looked at this thread, I printed off a couple of formations put them in my ML 3* found out that I tend to go ball chasing far too much to use three at the back.

Have returned, looked at all the wisdom and applied some of it. Am getting a lot more opportunities on goal (my finishing needs some finishing touches).

The formation which is closest to what I played with is Formation A for Barcelona posted by Jmz.

Many thanks once again.
The more people that use them, the more worthwile it is to spend my time sharing them. Just glad to help...

My mates used to chase every ball, and it would work for the first twenty minutes when they would find themselves 1-0 up, but after they tired a bit I would step it up and destroy them. This happened a lot, but lately they are listening to me, and marking up and holding instead, and they are much harder to play against. I love playing against ball chasers though, as they always sprint their defenders out, leaving me to easily chip the keeper. A few weeks ago, I played my cousin (18) and he was like this. I scored 5 chips in one half....
 

Han

Registered User
I find it always difficult to get out of the pressure when they chase the ball; have you particular advice for me? ;)
 

Zygalski

Administrator
Can someone explain the differences between the 3 Defence arrow types? They are High, Normal, and Low. I'd like to know what they >actually< do to your players and not what you 'think' they do.
 

Han

Registered User
I think we cannot, Zyg. How could we, else than give an estimation? The only thing the player certainly do is going back towards their own goal. I think it is not one thing. I wouldn't be surprised if it also matters how high your defense-attribute is.
 

yannh

Registered User
Han said:
I find it always difficult to get out of the pressure when they chase the ball; have you particular advice for me? ;)

I tend to try changing direction but with the young players in the ML I get caught out a fair bit, perhaps with better players this tactic would work better.
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
Han said:
I find it always difficult to get out of the pressure when they chase the ball; have you particular advice for me? ;)
Just let them get near and pass the ball away. They will get tired after too much chasing, then take advantage of it with your slightly more rested players. If someone constantly sprints at you chasing the ball, just go at walking pace and knock it past them, they'll be stranded and you'll be in space, you can use this to drag players out of position and create loads of gaps.
I'm not saying don't chase the ball down at all either, but if someone is just passing around near the half way line, just cover the gaps and let them get on with it, they are going nowhere. Then when they start to threaten chase the ball down a bit more.

zygalski said:
Can someone explain the differences between the 3 Defence arrow types? They are High, Normal, and Low. I'd like to know what they >actually< do to your players and not what you 'think' they do.
It's more relevant when you aren't controlling the player, if your cursor is not controlling the player, it will determine how much pressure he will apply to the ball, and how much he will push forward/stay back.
Obviously when you select that player, it's down to you, so really its a back up to tell the players you aren't controlling what to do.
If you put a striker on high, he will chase the ball down, like Bellamy.
If you put low on a striker, he will only work when the ball is at his feet or he is making an attacking run.
If you put High on a defensive midfielder he will not make many forward runs of his own accord. Only if you tell him to by applying attacking arrows.
I hope this helps you understand what this >actually< does.
 

Han

Registered User
jMz said:
Just let them get near and pass the ball away. They will get tired after too much chasing, then take advantage of it with your slightly more rested players. If someone constantly sprints at you chasing the ball, just go at walking pace and knock it past them, they'll be stranded and you'll be in space, you can use this to drag players out of position and create loads of gaps.
I'm not saying don't chase the ball down at all either, but if someone is just passing around near the half way line, just cover the gaps and let them get on with it, they are going nowhere. Then when they start to threaten chase the ball down a bit more.
Well I usually have lesser problems with the first man to get rid of. It is the problem where to pass that quickly! If you are chased then you need to react fast and that makes it harder to find a good player to play the ball to. Some people do attack so heavy that it's hard to pass the ball well. You say "If someone constantly sprints at you chasing the ball, just go at walking pace and knock it past them" but I am not sure what you mean with 'knock it past him'... just step aside and pass it past him or so?
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
Han said:
You say "If someone constantly sprints at you chasing the ball, just go at walking pace and knock it past them" but I am not sure what you mean with 'knock it past him'... just step aside and pass it past him or so?
Either of those, you can move and react much quicker if you are at walking pace, let them thunder towards you, then you can either pass before they reach you, turn your back to them and hope for a foul, or simply move away with the ball. A lot of people don't pass backwards (towards your own goal) at all, but it is often the safest option. You can always put it back to the covering defender who could pass out again or hoof it upfield, same applies for your keeper.
Basically watch lots of football matches and play like a real team.
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
Listen up Sven.....
 

observer

Registered User
jMz said:
Listen up Sven.....
Good stuff, James.
My thoughts:
1. I really like formations with solid 4 at the back. however, I am not sure I fully understand the role of the players in your new template. (I like your older template more).
2. Now I play with 4*2*1*3 (2 DMFs) as I play with a very strng human opponent, but I noticed I need to have more control on the Mid-feild, maybe , as shown in you template, I should change one of my DMFs to CMF in one of my other 2 formations. Defenitly worth a try.
3. Regarding the offensive arrows, I noticed that when I over use them my players sort of loose connection and I have a high percentage of miss pass. I had this when I was playing yesterday, I edited my formation and removed most of the attacking arrows and actually the players performed much better.

I will try this some of the intereting ideas you had here, and I will keep you posted with results.

Take care
 

Han

Registered User
Like observer, I have some midfield-problems as well with my 5-3-2 formation (see one of the previous pages). I tried to play with backline at A to play closer to the midfield, but without succes sofar, because my opponent used the space behind mij defence for the counter.
I am thinking about playing with three or four defenders, sacraficing one defender to the midfield. Reason I did not play 4-4-2 online is that I have problems with my central defence when playing with only two CBT's and when I play with three CBT's my opponents come along the wing.
So what I am looking for is some system where I have good cover at the wings, 3 cbt's, a good midfield to battle succesfully overthere and at least two attackers :D
I was thinking about a 3-5-2 but than I get problems at the wing in defence.... Any suggestions?? ;)
 

fabiocarpene

Registered User
here is an idea

ive played football at pro level and now play non-league, so i know quite a bit abouttactics. i use a 4-4-2 formation, i have 1 for when we have the ball and 1 for when we lose it. so my default formation is quite similar to formation a which compacts the midfield making it easier for us to win the ball, then when we win the ball back i put the wingers right out and forward and i also push my full backs forward. this is how the 4-4-2 is played. i use semi-auto and just change to the formations using L2.
 

Original?

istrator
Han if you are having trouble in midfield don't just stick an extra one in there. You could play 2-6-2 and still have problems in midfield, I've outplayed my mate in the centre of the park with only 3 midfielders to his five.

The important thing is to use what you have got effectively. If you've got fewer midfielders make sure your defence and attack support them a bit mroe and try not to get isolated. You shouldn't be afraid to pass it back either. Out of interest where are your 3 playing? Try playing 2 OMF and on DMF, make sure alot of your midfield starts with the DMF and vary his passing. Nedved would be the ideal player for this role.

Good luck.
 

Han

Registered User
Fabiocarpene, good idea to try semi auto with an off the ball and on the ball formation.
Original, if you want to see my formations, you can see them in this very topic, post number 71. So you see I do use 1 DMF and 2 OMF's. So there you can see what I did. :)
 

jMz

I beg your pardon?
If you can't be arsed to read it all, I've highlighted some key points.

This formation is for the brave, the very good, and certainly not for the light hearted. The only time I've been beaten with this set up was the first game I tried it, and after a few games a tight 4-3 defeat against McNab, the games I did win at first were a struggle. I dismissed the set up thinking it just didn't work with the way I like to play, but how I was wrong, a few tiny tweaks and plenty of time to get used to it and I've honed it to near perfection. I reccomend it for playing against humans, but I haven't really tried it against the computer, I imagine it will exploit the formation's weaknesses more effectively. Also you can't trick the computer, it always knows what is going on, you can trick a human by swapping the default and formation A, so you start with a 4-4-2, but when you press L2 it switches to the 2-6-2 all out, and your opponent just thinks you are using 4-4-2, because that's all he saw on your formation screen. He won't know what's hit him. Otherwise the second formation in the diagram is useless, I wouldn't even bother with it.



Although the team is based around Classic Brazil, it can be easily translated into another side, or your master league team, but if the players aren't good enough it may fail terribly. If you get the strongest player for every position, you should be nigh on unbeatable, I haven't had the time to set up an ML team yet, but I imagine PES5 is a while off yet so I have time in the future.

To get away with using this formation you need to be inventive, and you need to be very good at passing the ball around, and I don't mean "yeah, I can press X and a direction." I mean you need to have the ability to pick out the right ball at the right time, knowing whether a long or short pass might be better, and knowing when to dummy. Not to mention your defensive abilities will be tested, I garuantee it, no matter how good you are, it's just the nature of the formation. It's not a 'cheat' formation, where you can easily win without trying, you really need to play to get anywhere. The results are worth all the work you need to put in, although it doesn't feel like work when your 25th intricate pass has just reached Zico in front of an open goal to put you 4-0 up.

It doesn't work well in PES3, at all, but because everything is smoother and the players are better in PES4, it works a treat. I have tried it on both games, and on PES3 I instantly noticed the lack of the new short passing system, it was difficult to get the ball across the pitch quickly without using the ropey manual stick system. But in PES4 you have a combination of features that make it easier to play real football, thus rendering this setup irresistable. You'll be stretching the play a lot and using all the pitch, keep looking for clusters of your players just hanging around in space. The more you move the ball around and across the pitch, the more stretched the opposition will get, then with all your players forward, you'll easily spot huge gaps. At times it feels like you've got 15 players on the pitch, all hungry for goals, and anyone in the team is capable of scoring.

Dig out all your old World Cup footage and learn from the greatest, take notes from Holland and Brazil when they were at their best, you basically need to play like that. 1 touch passing is very much the order of the day, but not the only ingredient. As you move up the field, most of your players will join the attack, leaving you spoilt for choice on who to pass to. Delve into the coaching manual and use all the triangles and 1-2's you can fit in making sure you do not lose the ball. Push up one side to get the oppositions defence to close you down, then stretch the opposition by putting the ball over to the other side with a long or hard ground pass, where you should find plenty of men waiting virtualy unmarked. After you've made the defence run about for long enough it's just a case of getting the final ball into the box, and of course you have some of the best shooting players in the history of football, so you aren't limited on the type of goal you can score. Try plenty of crazy shots, if the keeper stops it, it'll rebound 9 times out of 10 because of the power these players have and there will always be a player running in to tap it in.

Try to be patient and only pass when you know it's on, if you lose the ball high up the pitch against a good counter attacking team, they may punish you. Keep the ball as much as you can, even if you have to play it all the way back to the keeper. This gives you a psychological edge too, as no-one likes chasing the ball all game, and it will soon frustrate them into mistakes, which you can exploit.

The team is based entirely on possession attacking, so try not to play defensively unless you really need to, which should be never by the way. If you score early, which you should, keep probing and if you have 3 by half time you should be safe and sound. The oppositions mentality will be low and it should be easier to add more goals. Never sit back on a lead unless you change the formation to suit. Don't worry about conceding the odd scrappy goal as you should always be able to score more. I've been averaging 6 a game with this side against my mates, and conceded an average of 2. I also worked out that in ten games I averaged 24 shots a game and 17 on target. Obviously I can't claim to be the tactical master without logging some data on how effective my teams are, and looking at it on paper, of all the setups I have tried, this has an alarming success rate.

In situations where a striker is through against your last defender, just try to sheperd him wide while the rest of your team gets back to defend. Make sure you stay between him and the goal so he can't get a shot off, then when your players get back, try to mark any possible passes so you can snatch the ball and counter. Stay on your feet unless you're absolutely sure, and always stay in front of any attacking player, if he gets past you don't want to be sat on your arse after a missed slide.

Then assuming you get the ball, don't just whack it over the top, look at your radar, play it on nice and simple. Wherever you are on the pitch you should outnumber the other team, just keep the ball, don't rush it. If you can, put it really close to the opposition when you pass, then once it's past them they are totally cut out until they chase again. Wear them out and tease them, if they chase, just keep knocking it around. It doesn't matter about counter attacking every single time, cos every now and again you will spot the perfect pass down the wing for someone totally unmarked. Just wait for the right ball, it's not about taking risks, it's about being sure whether you make a long or short pass it's going to work, sometimes you only need a simple five yard pass, sometimes it's better to ping a 60 yd long ball across the pitch. The radar is king, I find I look at that more than the actual players. Or if you can get away with it, the birds eye cam, you get an amazing view of how many players are in space. I can't use it very well but someone will.

To get the most out of this patient style you should play no less than 15 minutes a game really, because it could take time to build up a goal. I've only played on 5 or 6 stars, so I don't know if there are even more goals in this team on a lower difficulty setting, although I don't know if it makes a difference in match mode, we've always put it on 5/6 stars so it shows when you save a goal. If you aren't bothered about looking like arguably the greatest ever team, then you may not like this set up, but if you are like me and you like to play football, show off, and most importantly, entertain anyone watching, you should love it. I only wish the crowd cheered for every pass.

This could be my last input for a good while, so I tried to make sure it was a good one that you could make the most of. If you like my thread I'd be grateful if you could keep it alive until I come back, I will be back. I ask only one thing of the people who use my teachings, when you score a beautiful, well made, team goal against a bitter rival, dedicate it to me.
 
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