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Define: Scripting

trup2foryou

Registered User
Very interesting videos, trup2foryou. I have watched all of them. It is sad to see how bad the offline experience is in PES 2012. But at the same time, it is not a surprise. I am an offline player and since day 1 I have noticed the "strange" behaviour of AI in some moments.

AI cheating, scripting, whatever you want to call it, has been present in PES since PS2. But I think the worst was in PES 2008. PES 2012 comes in second.

Very sad…

Yes, this has been in every PES game, but it feels staggeringly more influential to the outcome this year. Are there ways to overcome this? Yes, but it requires an inordinate amount of rapid button pushing. This makes the game way to arcadey for me. If I have a great CD playing, he should act like a great CD whether or not I have pushed the correct sequence of buttons. In years past, I don't remember the outright stupidity of my teammates.
 

trup2foryou

Registered User
anyone else following this guy^over the last few minutes - is he a cyborg spambot?

IronCity, is that question directed at me? Not sure why you would think that. Sorry if I've written anything offensive.

I assure you, I'm no spam bot. Just finally deciding to get involved in the conversation after years of perusing this and other PES dedicated forums for release info, feedback, gameplay hints, option files, etc. Like many here, it rips my heart that my favorite game franchise has gone down the tubes. Since I don't like FIFA, I'm left w/o an option for an enjoyable footy video game. Reading these various forums on and off since Sept I realized that I'm not alone in this regard. Rather than join, come on here and get into stupid battles with other PES fans, I decided to take the time to make some videos and share them with the PES communities to show them what and explain what my issues are.

If they're appreciated and people want to see more, I'll create more and spend more time on vid quality and editing. If noone cares, I'll stop.
 

Amateur

Registered User
Since there are so many folks here who refuse to open their eyes, I made a series of vids addressing the very issue of AI cheating, scripting, whatever you want to call it. I show examples of AI players closing down my attacker from behind even though my player has a 10 pt advantage in speed. I show plays where I clearly hit the jump button defending a cross, my defender starts the jump animation and then just stops allowing the attacker to score. Please note that in every one of the games I show, I actually won every game. So please, kishores_bin, don't give your snarky "just practice more"!! Maybe you have $60 burning a hole in your pocket every fall and are willing to purchase a crap product, but don't be arrogant and act like you somehow have higher abilities. What the AI does to your defense has nothing to do with real soccer. PERIOD!

Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_t7sJAnKuE

All video games are scripted, but that's not what people argue when they say that "PES12 is scripted" -- the people who describe the people who say that PES12 is scripted as "morons" are in fact pretentious douchebags who fail to comprehend a very simple argument. And no, in no way does "scripted" means the same thing as "rigged".

The term "rigged" implies that it is "fixed" so that one team wins; the term "scripted" implies that the scripted or predetermined animations that make the game are undermined by a computer that cheats the stats, it implies that the computer needs to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty, that for the mentioned reason it is impossible for the gamer to feel in control of the game due to the fact that the computer can and will cheat the stats, therefore meaning that the actual ability of the gamer is consistently undermined by the "script" which is determined by the computer, therefore meaning that a lot of experienced gamers will complain about PES12 being "scripted" by something that they have no control of, that's what "scripted" means in this fairly specific context, but "scripted" does not necessarily mean that the outcome of the game is already "fixed" before the match even begins.

If you are playing Mortal Kombat, and the fastest character inexplicably becomes slower than a character whom should be the slowest character in the game: that undermines your ability as a gamer, because you do not have control over the game, because the stats that make the game are undermined by a computer that will randomly decide that a weak player will now be strong, that a slow player will (for the most crucial of seconds) become fast, etc, etc.

A video game where the computer needs to cheat the stats, is flawed, and that's what a lot of people describe as "a scripted mess" because it is in fact a scripted mess, because in this day and age, a consumer should not pay $60 for a video game that is so fundamentally outdated that the computer needs to cheat the stats in order to provide a challenge to the user.

Such "scripted" video games were acceptable back in the PS2 days, but there is absolutely no excuse for it now, and the people (like kishores_bin or the muscular one) who defend or justify such a shameless profit-making should really feel ashamed of themselves for trying to justify a very simple truth with a very offensive lie: no, it's not your fault, your "terminology" is not wrong, the term "scripted" is perfectly adequate to describe both PES12 and FIFA12, because PES12 and FIFA12 are in fact scripted bullshit, PES12 and FIFA12 are in fact outdated, the result of greedy corporations wanting to make a huge profit by overproducing an outdated product, that's the truth.

Mortal Kombat, a 2D video game, is a better video game than either PES12 or FIFA12, because the computer does not need to cheat the stats, because the ability of the actual gamer actually amounts to something consistent and irrefutable -- that's where 3D video games like PES12 and FIFA12 fail.

So yeah, I agree with your point, but I don't look at it as a "soccer" related thing, I do not believe that a good soccer video game needs to look and feel exactly as real soccer, I see it more as a video game that failed to evolve: the computer cheating the stats, in a video game that revolves around stats, is a flawed and outdated concept irrespective of the genre or sport of the video game, both Konami and EA Sports should move on from that, but they won't.

Yes, this has been in every PES game, but it feels staggeringly more influential to the outcome this year. Are there ways to overcome this? Yes, but it requires an inordinate amount of rapid button pushing. This makes the game way to arcadey for me. If I have a great CD playing, he should act like a great CD whether or not I have pushed the correct sequence of buttons. In years past, I don't remember the outright stupidity of my teammates.

That has to be one of the best comments that I've ever read about PES: too much button smashing to do what? Nothing.

Konami should eliminate the unnecessary buttons such as pressing R2 whenever you want your defender to stand correctly, pressing R2 in order to do something that requires no directional input does not require any skill, it is as simple as: whenever the ball carrier gets close to the defender, press and hold the R2 button, it doesn't require directional input, it really doesn't require any level of skill, it is a complete waste of time. Bottom line: the time that is currently spent doing stupid things should be replaced by a more intuitive and entertaining system.

And by that, I mean, the R2 button should press itself automatically, whenever the ball carrier gets close to a defender, the defender should post up automatically; and as a result, the time that is currently spent pressing the R2 button in order to do something incredibly boring and redundant, is replaced by a new tackling system, where the user needs to determine the direction and the distance of the standing tackle.

That's the area that needs to be fundamentally overhauled, because by adding that new dimension into the game, a dimension where you can determine both the direction and the distance of a standing tackle, the direction and the distance of a dribble or feint, makes it possible to have a video game where the computer would not need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty.

Because then a world class CB would have a wider range of movement within the space, meaning that his range of standing tackles would be superior to the limited range of standing tackles of an average defender, and then you apply the very same concept into every area of the game: dribbling, shooting, passing, etc, etc. The computer would no longer need to cheat the stats in order to increase the difficulty, the video game would be good enough for the computer to increase the difficulty by getting smarter and without the necessity of cheating the stats.

But for as long as that dimension of "direction and distance within the space that you occupy; as opposed to direction and distance within a perpetual cycle of moving from one space to another space all the time, because it is impossible to actually move within the space that you occupy" is not implemented into the game, then the computer will need to cheat the stats, and the same old fundamental flaws will remain untouched irrespective of the many gimmicks that will surely be added to the outdated core.

I think that both PES12 and FIFA12 have what it takes to make it happen, but I think that both Konami and EA Sports will continue adding gimmick after gimmick for the next five years or so.
 

OCKRASS

Registered User
IronCity, is that question directed at me? Not sure why you would think that. Sorry if I've written anything offensive.

I assure you, I'm no spam bot. Just finally deciding to get involved in the conversation after years of perusing this and other PES dedicated forums for release info, feedback, gameplay hints, option files, etc. Like many here, it rips my heart that my favorite game franchise has gone down the tubes. Since I don't like FIFA, I'm left w/o an option for an enjoyable footy video game. Reading these various forums on and off since Sept I realized that I'm not alone in this regard. Rather than join, come on here and get into stupid battles with other PES fans, I decided to take the time to make some videos and share them with the PES communities to show them what and explain what my issues are.

If they're appreciated and people want to see more, I'll create more and spend more time on vid quality and editing. If noone cares, I'll stop.

Sup Tru,

Just saw your vids on youtube which took me back here. Great vids and very detailed. I am surprised you took so much time out of your day to highlight some of the annoying aspects of PES...but it was worth it.

I strongly do not believe that there is a thing called "AI cheating" because each script is already predetermined and cannot morph or changed ingame or on the fly into something of its own. What you have shown in your vids is basically bad programming. This is why PES is in shambles today. They do not invest enough time to iron out simple things that negatively affect the game play in a huge way.

Defenders running away from the ball or being out of position is now a normal thing in PES ...its not new. This enables your opponents to score easier. Is this cheating or just bad programming?

As I have stated over and over ....PES is garbage compared to its predecessors of ps2 and Konami and the Fish (Seabass) is quite happy (like others here) with the direction the game is going. No changes will be made in the near future ...i can guarantee that. We have been waiting for over 4 years now for a change. Just promises...good ones too.

Brings me to my next point...you pointing out all these bad things about PES will only make you infamous here ....not famous. You have already being called a "spam bot" as if you are spreading rumors or bad things about PES.

Continue to make these great vids and feel free to share them on any forum you feel necessary. I like them. I doubt they will make any impact on Komani ..but they may open up the eyes of many here who refuses to acknowledge that this game is just pure shit.

peace

PS
Never apologize to anyone if you know you have done nothing wrong!
IronCity can go suck on some balls for all i care.
 

techboy11

Registered User
Hmm, I haven't got so much of a problem with the defenders doing what they did in the clips, but I do agree they did that to get to a consequence. For example, defenders in this day and age are under immense pressure from agile quick minded forwards, in clip one defenders do sometimes go 'safety first', but I agree the result (doing that to get a cheap scripted CPU goal) is not good.

Same for clip 2. The defender was running toward the corner flag because the ball was angling that way, to head the ball back across to his defender friend would have been tactical suicide, and so the only viable option, taking into consideration body angle, the ball trajectory, was to head it where he did! Again haven't a problem with that, BUT, if the game is doing that, JUST to get to the situation where the CPU player can cross and head a goal, then again that is problematic.

I have highlighted why PES is so good many times on this forum. But I am also a realist and know it's scripted bad points. People on Evo Web for example, these tactical geniuses go on about this and that and ways to stop the CPU, and in the main it can be managed, to stop the CPU scripting or at least to a minimum.

But there are some times where the scripts cannot be stopped, like when a couple of days ago the CPU scored four headed pin point goals from lofted wing balls. This is just ridiculous and couldn't be stopped regardless of form arrows, positioning, compactness, defensive line, whatever. PES 2012 is a a little broken if you ask me. This is why I can only play it on the PC, modded, where the erratic passing and shooting and general gameplay issues have been ironed out.

Don't get me wrong, I can play the game on Superstar and on the PS3, but it has to be played in a certain way like the guy with the clips said.
 

S-D-P

Registered User
I would describe scripting or "balancing acts" as I like to call it as...

- Cursor change not working properly, that split second can make all the difference and the game knows this

- Every deflection falling to the AI.

- Defenders moving inexplicably out of position regardless of stats and tactics

- Players moving ever so slightly out of position, subtle but makes a massive difference

- Biased refs ignoring blatant trips on the box and then blowing up as soon as you go near the AI.

Many other little things that when playing ML on SS difficulty are impossible not to notice, that said there are times when I cry scripting but the game has beaten me fair and square. I dont think the game is as scripted as it sometimes feels.
 

IronCity

Banned
- Every deflection falling to the AI.

This one is really pissing me off. the only thing you didn't add S-D-P is falling to the CPU player in stride. Also, a defensive clear by me almost always goes to the CPU, a clear by the CPU is a perfect rainbow pass to a forward.

Finally, what is up with goal kicks? After I make a save and then boot a drop kick it never goes in the direction I choose but rather randomly. Many times 30 yards away from any of my players so the CPU just scoops it up in reverse direction.
 

S-D-P

Registered User
This one is really pissing me off. the only thing you didn't add S-D-P is falling to the CPU player in stride. Also, a defensive clear by me almost always goes to the CPU, a clear by the CPU is a perfect rainbow pass to a forward.

Finally, what is up with goal kicks? After I make a save and then boot a drop kick it never goes in the direction I choose but rather randomly. Many times 30 yards away from any of my players so the CPU just scoops it up in reverse direction.

Oh mate don't get me started on clearances, one ball forward to their target man and your in trouble, far too perfect and not realistic. Goal-kicks have needed a power bar since pes 5.

I am getting more success on superstar against the AI, not always selecting the player closest to the AI ball carrier is helping and blocking the passing is lanes is forcing the AI into more mistakes, pes 2012 is really beginning to click for me. Just sick of getting fucked over.

It also seems your GK is more liable to mistakes than the AI keepers.
 

Ali

It is happening again
Oh mate don't get me started on clearances, one ball forward to their target man and your in trouble, far too perfect and not realistic. Goal-kicks have needed a power bar since pes 5.

I am getting more success on superstar against the AI, not always selecting the player closest to the AI ball carrier is helping and blocking the passing is lanes is forcing the AI into more mistakes, pes 2012 is really beginning to click for me. Just sick of getting fucked over.

It also seems your GK is more liable to mistakes than the AI keepers.

A bit off topic, but the same goes for when you want to throw it out. Also, crosses need a power bar.

Not that power bars make a blind bit of difference (back on topic), because the game seems to decide how powerful your passes/shots are a lot of the time.
 

IronCity

Banned
something is a miss when I rack up a 3-0 lead, and then the CPU lands 3 out of this world Darren Bent goals in 3 consecutive shots, within about 4-5 min game time.

I might try FIFA.
 

techboy11

Registered User
something is a miss when I rack up a 3-0 lead, and then the CPU lands 3 out of this world Darren Bent goals in 3 consecutive shots, within about 4-5 min game time.

I might try FIFA.

What you need dude is the PC version...if you have a PC that is!

The gameplay patches make the game superb, from the basic dung heap that is served up 'out of the box'. You've heard of Yair, Jenkey and Nesa etc, well they are changing the game for the best and together with patches for stadiums, lighting, grass textures, kits etc, it' now probably the best iteration of football that there can be. Cheat scripts to a minimum, CPU playing intelligent and using build up, and bye bye the CPU moving your defenders to where it feels.

The bottom line - My love for KONAMI is at an ALL TIME LOW, my love for the PES modding community...well I can't praise them enough. They are superb in their dedication to making this shit fest THE football simulator out there.
 

Ali

It is happening again
What you need dude is the PC version...if you have a PC that is!

The gameplay patches make the game superb, from the basic dung heap that is served up 'out of the box'. You've heard of Yair, Jenkey and Nesa etc, well they are changing the game for the best and together with patches for stadiums, lighting, grass textures, kits etc, it' now probably the best iteration of football that there can be. Cheat scripts to a minimum, CPU playing intelligent and using build up, and bye bye the CPU moving your defenders to where it feels.

The bottom line - My love for KONAMI is at an ALL TIME LOW, my love for the PES modding community...well I can't praise them enough. They are superb in their dedication to making this shit fest THE football simulator out there.

If what you say about these guys (Jenkey etc) is true.... then why don't Konami hire them?? If some random bloke in his bedroom can do a better job than the people who actually get PAID to create the game, there's a big problem there.
 

techboy11

Registered User
If what you say about these guys (Jenkey etc) is true.... then why don't Konami hire them?? If some random bloke in his bedroom can do a better job than the people who actually get PAID to create the game, there's a big problem there.

This is exactly right my friend, and something I have been banging on about for ages. When I was on the WENB boards before I got banned for having the audacity to question this shit game out of the box, I stated this numerous times. But alas, these people working at KONAMI and for KONAMI want to protect their little empire, and NOTHING can be said against their little product.

One of the arguments is that the Japanese see getting help as some kind of huge character flaw and would rather die on their shield so to speak than to have any influence outside their little bubble, it's a cultural thing I guess. What baffles me, is why don't al these Western hangers on change their mindset slightly and why the fk do they still keep bigging this game (out of the box) up like it's some sort of masterpiece....it really isn't.

Within weeks of release you had patchers making everything from kits to emblems and from roster updates to player stats. Then you had the guys working on stadia and atmosphere with crowd chants etc. Then you had people changing turfs and textures and player faces. Within a month or two you had about two dozen or so workable patches which changed everything from D2's, to other leagues, different stadia for the default stuff, editable stats and subtle changes in gameplay.

And within three to four months you have masters on their computers delving deep into the KONAMI code and changing lots of things to alter gameplay. This varies from changing ball physics, ball speed, gamespeed, animation boosts, cheat scripts removed, net physics changed, curving shot, gameplay changes, this all with Jenkey, and then people like Yair, Mehtab and Nesa actually creating a whole new game basically again changing things from physics to the way the CPU tries to attack, to smoothing out errors, to making animations better!

The latest patch for the PC being worked on by Nesa, sees him trying to alter something to get the CPU to play possesison, and to attack like in real life without these super human dribblers (like Emile Heskey).

In short, these guys are fkin legends!

They have transformed a pretty shit game into something that I can hand on heart say is the best footballing experience ever. Sure, they are limited to some areas in the KONAMI code I guess, but only today someone found a huge breakthrough in the code which points to the CPU having advanced boosts over the human player, something about bugging or debugging or something, I'm no expert.

Needless to say, in my eyes, these guys are a billion times better than what KONAMI can offer, and all from their fkin bedroom FFS!!

The PC version is the way to go for me, and unless they get their shit together I'll be buying editable/moddable PC games until they can get their PS3 act together. I've only got to play one game on the PS3 now, and I want to stick a knife in my retina.
 

IronCity

Banned
But what I don't get is why FIFA hasn't upped their game. Surely they could get code developers to create one beautiful, spot-on, game. Maybe they dominate sales so much they don't worry about it (??).
 

techboy11

Registered User
Well I don't know fella, and I don't know if this is true or not, but the whispers are that EA are making quite substantial losses, may be because of their very attacking marketing campaigns. You know the saying - turnover is vanity, profit is sanity!
 

Amateur

Registered User
I have highlighted why PES is so good many times on this forum. But I am also a realist and know it's scripted bad points. People on Evo Web for example, these tactical geniuses go on about this and that and ways to stop the CPU, and in the main it can be managed, to stop the CPU scripting or at least to a minimum.

The thing that the guys at Evo Web fail to mention, is that the game is fundamentally flawed and outdated, meaning that even if you "stop the CPU scripting" the fact remains that it is impossible to play around the fact that the CPU cheats the stats due to the lack of a range of movement within the space that the player occupies.

PES12 and FIFA12, play like a version of Mortal Kombat, where the fastest player in the game, Liu Kang, inexplicably becomes slower than the slowest character in the game, just because the CPU thought it should happen that way; question, how do you play around that? How do you "stop" that?

Yes, some "tactical geniuses" know how to overcome even the most absurd CPU scripting, I wouldn't describe myself as such a genius but I can assure you that there are many ways in which to exploit the CPU, one of the tricks is by using the on-the-fly tactical changes, which allows you to drop players like Xavi all the way into your own penalty box, whilst at the same time putting players like Messi in wide positions where you can easily pass them the ball, and then also positioning David Villa near Messi, then Messi plays the one two with Villa, and in most occasions that means that Messi now is in a goal scoring position: that's one of the many ways in which you can exploit the CPU's incompetence, by outscripting the CPU, which is easily possible via the on-the-fly tactical settings.

Though having said that, there is absolutely no way, in which you can play around the fact that movement within the space is nonexistent within the dimensions of the game: that's what I call SCRIPTED gameplay, not the cheap CPU stunts, but the fact that movement itself is not determined by the person whom is supposed to be playing the video game. If I cannot determine how and when I want to move without triggering the sprint button into action, how much control do I really have when I'm dribbling with the ball or when I'm man-marking the ball carrier?

That's the all important factor at the end of the day, you can outscript the CPU, you can beat the CPU at its own game, but is it fun? Not anymore it isn't, this is a case of the old formula being used past its expiration date, plain and simple.
 

techboy11

Registered User
The thing that the guys at Evo Web fail to mention, is that the game is fundamentally flawed and outdated, meaning that even if you "stop the CPU scripting" the fact remains that it is impossible to play around the fact that the CPU cheats the stats due to the lack of a range of movement within the space that the player occupies.

PES12 and FIFA12, play like a version of Mortal Kombat, where the fastest player in the game, Liu Kang, inexplicably becomes slower than the slowest character in the game, just because the CPU thought it should happen that way; question, how do you play around that? How do you "stop" that?

Yes, some "tactical geniuses" know how to overcome even the most absurd CPU scripting, I wouldn't describe myself as such a genius but I can assure you that there are many ways in which to exploit the CPU, one of the tricks is by using the on-the-fly tactical changes, which allows you to drop players like Xavi all the way into your own penalty box, whilst at the same time putting players like Messi in wide positions where you can easily pass them the ball, and then also positioning David Villa near Messi, then Messi plays the one two with Villa, and in most occasions that means that Messi now is in a goal scoring position: that's one of the many ways in which you can exploit the CPU's incompetence, by outscripting the CPU, which is easily possible via the on-the-fly tactical settings.

Though having said that, there is absolutely no way, in which you can play around the fact that movement within the space is nonexistent within the dimensions of the game: that's what I call SCRIPTED gameplay, not the cheap CPU stunts, but the fact that movement itself is not determined by the person whom is supposed to be playing the video game. If I cannot determine how and when I want to move without triggering the sprint button into action, how much control do I really have when I'm dribbling with the ball or when I'm man-marking the ball carrier?

That's the all important factor at the end of the day, you can outscript the CPU, you can beat the CPU at its own game, but is it fun? Not anymore it isn't, this is a case of the old formula being used past its expiration date, plain and simple.

On a side note I'm pretty sure the people on Evo have had a bit of a break-through today with your 'the fastest player becomes slower' theory.

Check this out -

So it appears that the geniuses over at the yair patch thread have found another gem in Konami's code:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehtab
This is absolutely, what I am trying to fix on the next patch. Looking at the game engine, the Opponent AI Marking, Compactness and Pressing seems to be greater than the Human AI's one and the most surprising thing is that, it was a part of debugging that they forgot to remove as it has been said on one of the comments. The good news is that the next patch will fix and improve it so that it's much more equal.

----

Interesting stuff.
 

Amateur

Registered User
On a side note I'm pretty sure the people on Evo have had a bit of a break-through today with your 'the fastest player becomes slower' theory.

Check this out -

So it appears that the geniuses over at the yair patch thread have found another gem in Konami's code:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehtab
This is absolutely, what I am trying to fix on the next patch. Looking at the game engine, the Opponent AI Marking, Compactness and Pressing seems to be greater than the Human AI's one and the most surprising thing is that, it was a part of debugging that they forgot to remove as it has been said on one of the comments. The good news is that the next patch will fix and improve it so that it's much more equal.

----

Interesting stuff.

It's quite interesting that independent workers are starting to figure it out on their own, people like them will further expose both Konami and EA Sports for what they really are, and hopefully inspire new companies into producing serious video games for mature audiences.

But having said that, my point wasn't exactly aimed at fast players that become slow, my point is aimed at the very core of the game: skillful player inexplicably loosing the ball to an average tackler, average tackler inexplicably making the perfect tackle, the perfect sliding tackle inexplicably being a foul, etc, etc.

At the end of the day, the fact of the matter is that nothing consistent determines the statistics. We do not have a button that can determine the direction and distance of dribbling with the ball without the necessity of running through space; we do not have a button that can determine the direction and distance of body feints, therefore complementing with the aforementioned dribbling button; we do not have a button for determining the direction and the distance of the standing tackle; we do not have a button that can determine both the timing and the weight of the standing tackle, etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day, there's no consistency to the core of the game, it is based on a very loose and outdated concept.

A very loose and outdated concept..... The two humans whom are playing the game against each other, the ball carrier goes in one direction, and at the same exact time the defender goes in the same exact direction: what determines the outcome of the one on one battle? Really, what determines that the ball carrier pushed the ball just slightly enough, that the defender didn't get to it?

I can assure you, that it is quite irrefutably impossible for the human player to determine that the ball carrier touched the ball just slightly towards the right side of his body, because the design of the video game does not comprehend the dimension of distance within the direction of movement, which means that one vs one confrontations are ultimately decided by the CPU.

Example: both the ball carrier and the defender, react at the same exact time, in accordance to the same exact direction. In PES12 and FIFA12, this means, that in most cases, the player with the better stats will come out victorious.... It's an outdated concept, precisely because it requires no real skills, due to the fact that the game practically plays itself precisely where it matters the most.

The stats should matter, but the stats should only determine the range of movement (movement = distance) within each direction, the range of directions within each area of the game, etc, etc. Therefore equipping the world class players with a considerable edge, but without making them unrealistically good or invincible, making it well within possible for the average attacker or defender to challenge the most skillful players.

But when stats amount to a system where, if both the attacker and the defender do everything perfect, then the stats will decide the outcome.... then the video game looses credibility, because it's clearly flawed and easily exploitable, and in this day and age, the formula is well past its expiration date, it needs to be replaced with a proper system, and both the PES and FIFA franchise are becoming more of a joke with each passing year.

That's my point. Even if you balance the game to perfection, it will only expose the core flaw of the system: how do you win a game against Barcelona or Real Madrid? There's no distance within the direction of movement, how much skill does it take to simply direct the left analog stick around + press the R2 button every now and then, in order to dribble past a defender? There's no substance to the game, predicting the direction in which the ball carrier will run, when you are watching the entire length of the pitch from your wide view perspective, does not require a considerable level of skill: it is obvious, easy to predict, easy to exploit, it feels like an arcade game on a 3D scale.

At the end of the day: yes, it is cool that some independent workers are looking for ways to further balance and improve the game, but my point is that the game is fundamentally flawed, and even if perfectly balanced, will still play a BORING game of football.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
At the end of the day: yes, it is cool that some independent workers are looking for ways to further balance and improve the game, but my point is that the game is fundamentally flawed, and even if perfectly balanced, will still play a BORING game of football.

your optimism is breathtaking :)
 
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