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FC Barcelona

Most important player on the pitch?

  • Puyol

    Votes: 5 3.1%
  • Messi

    Votes: 63 39.1%
  • Xavi

    Votes: 56 34.8%
  • Eto'o

    Votes: 3 1.9%
  • Iniesta

    Votes: 27 16.8%
  • Dani Alves

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Henry

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • Yaya Touré

    Votes: 3 1.9%

  • Total voters
    161

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
Is Fabregas up for sale?

Do we have first refusal option?

Do we have a clause allowing him to be bought back at a fixed price?

Do we have clause where if you sold him to other clubs besides us we get 50% of the fee?

So meaning even if we dont have the above 1st and 2nd clauses,bidding 51% of the bid of the highest bidder will get you more money and hence you may sell to us?

Which of you Barca fans can confirm any of the above?
 

Bish

Registered User
If Barca get an offer and are prepared to sell, they must notify Arsenal first. We have the option to buy him back at a fixed price, which is approx £25m. If we don't take up the option to buy him and they sell him to another team, we get 50% of the profit on the fee Barca paid us for him.
 

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
If Barca get an offer and are prepared to sell, they must notify Arsenal first. We have the option to buy him back at a fixed price, which is approx £25m. If we don't take up the option to buy him and they sell him to another team, we get 50% of the profit on the fee Barca paid us for him.
Wonderful,thank you.25million Sweet.
 

Ziss

The Three Amigos
Do we have clause where if you sold him to other clubs besides us we get 50% of the fee?
This was covered a year ago. Why would Barca agree to give you 50% of the fee? Barca would need to sell him for £70m-£80m just to break even.
 

Usul

Registered User
You should learn to appreciate fake fouls.

Neymar-----Messi------Suarez
------------------------------
--Iniesta----------Rakitic------
----------Busquets------------

Hohohohohohooo
 

Miggy

Mr Lover Man
I'd stick Masche in midfield again.

Messi needs a rest, it's just a shame Suarez won't be able to play for a few months. Neymar should step up big time this season too.

Can't wait to see what El Lucho does with the team.
 

Usul

Registered User
Squad looks solid enough.

Very pleasantly surprised with Munir's performances. Such confidence.
 

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
Learn to post a fucking video properly.

Edit: I fix it and it's about Henry. I'm close to banning you.
Thank you for that,but i just illustrated how henry adapted his game to be a world class winger for barca to be an important player for barca in winning the treble and his coveted CHampions League..Many wont even dream of him doing defensive work,this shows the perfect adaptation and in Barcelona,its not even offtopic..Why the hate?
 

Joel

Administrator
Staff member
Because you're going around doing the Arsenal shit again. You only edited the post an hour or so later, but originally in the Chelsea thread, it was just a post about Henry being Drogba's inspiration. You're doing it in here now. You're talking about Cesc during the Euro 08 and the World Cup 10 because he was wasting his career as an Arsenal player at that time. You just want to inject every thread with something Arsenal and it's bloody annoying.

We don't even have regular Barca fans and I'm pretty sure they know how good Henry was for them and don't really care about it now since it's more than 6 years ago.
 

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
We were talking about Schurrle,whom was an impact sub and you claim had a fantastic worldcup..Cesc during that period was a pretty popular and the only impact sub for spain the reigning team at that time...Henry even i thought he never defended not to the extent shown here until i found this video so i shared it...Drogba being a worldclass footballer himself and of similar age showing such respect for henry was kinda refreshing for me..the last event was the only thing which i overdid it,the other two were coincidence.
 

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
By the way to all Barca fans,when you were looking for midfielders to eventually take the throne of Xavi and Iniesta,why was Ander Hererra not considered:
i thought not much of Hererra i since he never stood out but in a better team now..we know what he is all about,seeing his ability i wonder why barca did not go for both him and rakitic to replace xavi and iniesta.

He is great at passing,holding possession,making key passes,runs into the box,scoring occasionally besides interceptions,blocks and defensive contribution.The spanish dream at 25 yrs right?
 

Bež

Registered User
Barcelona midfielder Xavi is ready to announce on Thursday he is leaving Barcelona to join Qatari side Al Sadd in a three-year deal, says his agent. - more

What a legend this chap is. A bit of a shame that he's not going to be retiring @ Barca like Puyol did, but what a servant he's been to them & who can blame him going to Qatar for a few years when they get their cheque book out on the table.
 

ArtisanWenger

Registered User
Neymar to Barcelona.


This has to be one of the stupidest transfers of all time for all parties involved except Neymar and associates.

The entire Neymar transfer and ensuing legal action can be confusing. This should help clarify matters a little bit. There’s still a lot of extraneous detail omitted from this summary but I've linked to a chronological guide of every court action in the conclusion if you're interested. Case 4 is the one to pay attention to.

KEY PLAYERS

Santos owned 55% of Neymar's rights. They sold 40% to DIS Esporte in Feb 2009 and 5% to Teisa in Nov 2010. Both are private investment firms. Other key players are Barcelona FC, the Neymar family and Jordi Cases, a Barca socio. Jordi's complaint kicked of a lot of investigations.
Sandro Rosell was President of Barca and Josep Bartomeu was his VP. Now Bartomeu is President and Javier Faus is his VP. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge is Bayern Munich's director.
Judge Pablo Ruz initially led Spanish investigations, now they're being led by Judge Jose de la Mata. Brazil investigations into Neymar are being run by Judge Carlos Muta. Jose Perals is a Spanish prosecutor.

BASICS

It was reported in Dec 2011 Barca paid Santos €10m for preferential rights i.e. the right to sign Neymar at any point upto 2014. Some reports said €14m, some reports said that a fee of €58m had been agreed at the time.
West Ham, Bayern, Chelsea, City and Madrid all bid for Neymar at various points between 2008-2013.
Neymar moved to Barca in June 2013, for a reported fee was €57.1m. Initially, Barca reported a €17.1m payment to Santos who paid 45% out to DIS and Teisa, Barca also reported a €40m payment to Neymar's family. They later admitted the actual fee was €86.2m

CASES


1. DIS Esporte v Santos.
DIS' investors were angry they only got €9.7m out of the deal. They didn't believe Santos when Santos said they only received €17.1m for the transfer.
The week after the transfer in June 2013 they got a court order for Santos to show their financial documents and found out that Santos had in fact only received €17.1m for Neymar.
BUT, they also found a €7.9m payment from Barca for the preferential rights to 3 other players. Santos/Barca claimed this was unrelated. There is also a clause that if Barca doesn't play a friendly vs Santos while Neymar is a Barca player, Barca will have to pay €4.5m.
IMO, sounds like a dubious way for Santos to keep money away from DIS/Teisa who should normally get 45% of the cut.

2. Jordi Cases v Barca
Jordi Cases is a disgruntled socio (club member), a pharmacist from the town of Olesa near Barcelona. In Dec 2013 he sued the board for misappropriation of funds claiming Barca paid more than €57m. This civil case started off investigations by the state.
Judge Pablo Ruz agreed to hear the case, Sandro Rosell resigned the next day in Jan 2014. In the wake of this resignation, Barca (Bartomeu who just came into power) paid a quick €13.5m payment to make case number 5 go away in Feb 2014 (see below).
The courts found the actual fee was €86.2m. Jordi wanted Bartomeu (new President) and Javier Faus (the VP) to be part of the investigation too. He had sued the board the year before as well as co-head of a supporters' group.
Jordi dropped the suit in Oct 2014 because didn't want people using the case to opportunistically sue Barca. He didn't expect he'd actually manage to get Rosell to resign that easily.

3. Spain v Bartomeu and Faus
Judge Pablo Ruz from case 2 decided to investigate Bartomeu and Faus. Prosecutor Jose Perals dropped the case in Sep 2014 and Judge Pablo Ruz agreed. Bartomeu is facing investigation in regards to this transfer under the bigger case that includes Rosell (see below).
Prosecutor Jose Perals said in the case of the alleged tax crimes, responsibility falls to the club as a whole and Rosell, as he was president at the time.
Judge Pablo Ruz said there was no point pursuing charges against Bartomeu and Faus who had signed certain incriminating documents. Ruz ruled there was not enough evidence to suggest that the two had “actively participated in the facts under investigation”.

4. Spain v Rosell & pals
THE BIG CASE. This is the one still running. Judge Pablo Ruz from case 2 decided to investigate Rosell as well as Barca, Bartomeu and the entire transfer at National court level. Rosell is very dodgy, he's under investigation in Brazil as well. More on that later.
The prosecution has asked for 2 years and 3 months in prison for Bartomeu, 7 years and 6 months to Rosell, and fines for both of €3.8m and €25.1m respectively. As for Barcelona, the request is that the club return €11.4m to public coffers and pay a fine of €22.2m.
Judge Jose de la Mata is now leading investigations, in early May 2015 he ordered the court to begin drafting a proposed indictment against the defendants and ruled there is enough evidence to begin a trial.
In May 2015 Mata then overturned a decision by Judge Pablo Ruz to have the centralised 'Audencia Nacional' hear the case, opting instead to send it to Barcelona where it will be heard in a Catalan court. Naturally, Barca were delighted. Bartomeu is claiming conspiracy, people are saying this is an attack on Catalonia. IMO, smart move by Mata as it keeps the focus on tax dodging and doesn't let Rosell and Bartomeu cynically use Catalonia tensions to distract from their own mischief.
In July 2015 Bayern Munich's director Karl-Heinz Rummenigge testified in Germany to the Spanish investigation. Bayern had an interest but never formally submitted a bid. Mata is seeking documentation from Real Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern Munich and Manchester City regarding offers they made to Santos for Neymar between 2009-13 to determine Neymar's market value. Real Madrid have complied but neither Chelsea nor City have responded.
In Sep 2015 a Freezing Order was issued by Judge Carlos Muta of a federal Brazilian court due to alleged Tax Evasion between 2011-2013 by Neymar in relation to money paid to him by Barca. (see case 8 below)
In Oct 2015 Mata used 2 appeals committees in Brazil to request testimony from the former Santos directors Luis Alvaro de Oliveira and Odilio Rodriguez, but has not received a response. He's willing to take statements or send a judicial committee to Brazil to hear testimony like he did for Rummenigge.

5. Spain vs Barcelona FC re tax
In Feb 2014 Judge Pablo Ruz charged Barca with "an infringement against the tax authority." Barca allegedly committed tax fraud claiming the transfer fee was €57.1m, later admitting this was €86.2m.
Barca director Raul Sanllehi stated the transfer on its own had cost €57.1m including €17.1m to Santos and €40m as a "compensation fee" paid to the company owned by Neymar's parents. He also detailed other payments around the transfer such as a signing bonus of €10m and various other fees paid to the family that took the total cost to €86.2m.
In Feb 2014 Barca voluntarily made a €13.5m tax payment. This particular case was soon dropped. Barca in an official statement claimed they did nothing wrong but that they were just making the payment:
"to cover any potential interpretation made concerning the contracts signed in the transfer process for Neymar, although we remain convinced that the original tax payment was in line with our fiscal obligations."
Imo, utter bullshit. They got caught, taxman got paid, everyone walked away but the club's hands are not clean at all. It's going to bite them in the ass with the current open big case. (see case 4 above)

6. Santos v Neymar & pals
In May 2015, in the wake of info uncovered by the Spanish investigation by Judge Pablo Ruz, Santos filed a complaint with FIFA against Barca, Neymar, Neymar jr and the company Neymar Sport and Marketing.
This is a contractual dispute. They want a sports court/tribunal organised by FIFA to settle their claim because they had been paid €17.1m under the assumption the total fee was €57.1m. Now that it's known that the fee is €86.2m they believe their contract entitles them to a greater share. Naturally, DIS and Teisa are very interested in this since hey get 40 and 5% respectively of anything Santos wins.
The terms of the contract are not public and the ruling, if it makes a tribunal, will hinge on a matter of construction so we have no idea of who's probably in the wrong and who's likely to succeed.
In Oct 2015 it’s been reported that one of the parts of Santos’ complaint involves asking for Neymar to be suspended for 6 months. Santos accuse Neymar of acting in bad faith and infringing Article 62 of the Disciplinary Code FIFA, which deals with corruption.
Santos also accuses Neymar of breaching arts. 17(3) and 17(5) of the Rules of FIFA Players Status and Transfer (RSTP). Article 17 deals with “consequences of terminating a contract without just cause.” It’s “provisions apply if a contract is terminated without just cause.”
Art 17(3) In addition to the obligation to pay compensation, sporting sanctions shall also be imposed on any player found to be in breach of contract during the protected period. This sanction shall be a four-month restriction on playing in official matches. In the case of aggravating circumstances, the restriction shall last six months. These sporting sanctions shall take effect immediately once the player has been notified of the relevant decision. The sporting sanctions shall remain suspended in the period between the last official match of the season and the first official match of the next season, in both cases including national cups and international championships for clubs. This suspension of the sporting sanctions shall, however, not be applicable if the player is an established member of the representative team of the association he is eligible to represent, and the association concerned is participating in the final competition of an international tournament in the period between the last match and the first match of the next season. Unilateral breach without just cause or sporting just cause after the protected period shall not result in sporting sanctions. Disciplinary measures may, however, be imposed outside the protected period for failure to give notice of termination within 15 days of the last official match of the season (including national cups) of the club with which the player is registered. The protected period starts again when, while renewing the contract, the duration of the previous contract is extended.
Art 17(5) Any person subject to the FIFA Statutes and regulations (club officials, players’ agents, players, etc.) who acts in a manner designed to induce a breach of contract between a professional and a club in order to facilitate the transfer of the player shall be sanctioned.
This 6 month ban action is … reaching tbh. They’re not using art 17 in a way that’s likely to be successful. Prima facie it seems vexatious but it’s hard to take a stance on construction without being able to see the actual contract in question. It’ll be interesting to see what evidence they present in regards to Neymar’s violation of contract.

7. DIS Esporte vs Neymar & pals
DIS have also taken legal action against Barcelona, Neymar, Neymar jr and the company Neymar Sport and Marketing in light of this new transfer fee information.
In June 2015 Judge Jose de la Mata agreed to hear the case.

8. Brazil vs Neymar & pals
In Sep 2015 a Freezing Order was issued due to alleged Tax Evasion by Neymar in relation to Barca money.
A São Paulo federal court froze assets of Neymar, his family and related businesses valued at 188.8m Brazilian reals (£31.3m). Neymar is alleged to have evaded 63m reals (£10.5m) in Brazil taxes between 2011 and 2013.
Judge Carlos Muta said Neymar declared assets worth only 19.6m reals (£3.2m), adding that “he is solely responsible for the income declaration.” The judge accused the 23-year-old of “omitting sources of income from abroad”. Barcelona Football Club was cited as the source of unreported money.
The judge froze three times that amount for security reasons and to cover potential interest and fines, according to a judicial order explaining the seizure. The action covers property and vehicles and is a preventive measure to stop the player selling assets before the case is settled. He will still have access to bank accounts and other liquid assets. Fun fact, Neymar's Brazilian assets total 244.2m reals (~£41.5m). Probably worth a lot more across the board with European assets and assets hidden under trusts, other family members’ names, shell corporations etc.
CONCLUDING REMARKS
This was fun, here’s a handy chronological guide in Catalan but Google translate handles it well enough.
The Messi tax evasion and fraud is even more complicated and dodgy. Never a dull day at Barca.
BONUS ONGOING ROSELL SCANDAL, Brazil v Portugal friendly in Nov 2008
Ricardo Teixeira. President of WC organising committee, member of FIFA's executive committee, chairman of the Brazilian Football Confederation (CBF) since 1989.
Article, The Economist:
Teixeira’s associates received millions from the event. Around the same time they appear to have signed contracts committing them to pay large sums to Mr Teixeira for purposes that remain obscure.
6 months before the match Sandro Rosell became a director of Ailanto, a sports-marketing firm in Rio de Janeiro set up shortly beforehand.
Rosell has been doing business with Teixeira for years: he moved to Brazil as Nike's director of sports marketing in 1999 to manage the company's relationship with the CBF.
A week before the match, the government of the Federal District signed a contract to pay Ailanto 9m reais ($4m at the time) for the marketing rights and for other loosely defined services, including arranging transport and accommodation for both teams' players. (The then governor of the Federal District, José Roberto Arruda, was later imprisoned and charged by the Federal Police over corruption relating to other matters.)
That deal is now being investigated for padding and corruption. The public prosecutor's office in Brasília says that receipted expenditure relating to the game was only around 1m reais—and that in any case the Football Federation of Brasília (FBF), an affiliate of the CBF, had paid. It also says that, although the Federal District government bought the rights to the game, the money from ticket sales went to the FBF.
Brasília's police force searched Ailanto's premises in Rio de Janeiro, seizing documents.
Alongside these deals run three others whose purposes are not immediately obvious. The Economist has copies of what appear to be the contracts for all three. One dated March 2009 commits Vanessa Precht, a Brazilian who formerly worked at Barcelona FC and who was Mr Rosell's partner in Ailanto, to leasing a farm in the state of Rio de Janeiro from Mr Teixeira for 10,000 reais a month for five years. Rede Record, a Brazilian television network, visited the farm in June and could find nobody who had heard of Ms Precht. Two Brazilian congressmen have called for an investigation to establish whether the deal was a way for Ms Precht to return to Mr Teixeira some of the money Ailanto earned from the Brazil-Portugal friendly.
The other two contracts were signed separately in July 2008 by Mr Teixeira and Mr Rosell with Cláudio Honigman, a financier who is a partner of Mr Rosell's in a different Brazilian sports-marketing company, Brasil 100% Marketing. Mr Honigman undertook to pay each man 22.5m reais to buy back options on 10% of the shares in Alpes Corretora, a São Paulo brokerage, which the contracts state he had previously sold to them. A spokesman for Alpes Corretora has told The Economist that Mr Honigman never had any interest in any shares in the company.

OP, I'd add Barça's explanation on the total cost of Neymar: http://i.imgur.com/6vakNRG.jpg
Basically:

Compensation to Neymar: 40M

Friendlies: Free (they say free but they have to play 2 friendlies, one in
Barcelona and one in Brazil. They've only played the 1 in Barcelona, if they don't play the other one in Brazil this next summer they'll have to pay 4.5M more)

Bonus if Neymar finish in the Top 3 Fifa World Player: 2M

Transfer fee for Santos: 17.1M

Signing bonus for Neymar: 10M

Agent commission: 2.7M

Marketing agreement with Neymar's Company: 4M

Payment to Neymar's Foundation: 2.5M

Agreement with Santos for preferential rights in 3 future signings: 7.9M

Payment to Neymar's father to scout players in Brazil: 2M

TOTAL: 86,2M + 13.5M in not payed taxes = 99,7M + (4,5M if they don't play the friendly in Brazil next summer + 2M Top 3 FWP + future fines (25,1M for Rosell + 3,8 for Bartomeu + 22,2M for Barcelona))
Apart from the obvious ones to hide money from DIS (those 7.9M to Santos for preferential rights for example) and to hide money from Santos (all the agreements with Neymar's companies), the funniest one IMO are the 40M as a compensation to Neymar. Barcelona signed an agreement with Neymar committing themselves to sign him in 2014 after the World Cup, if either party broke the agreement, that party should pay 40 million to the other. Since there were clubs interested in Neymar in 2013, Barça was forced to sign him in 2014 and signed him in 2013 instead, so they effectively broke the agreement with Neymar and had to pay him 40M. If they had waited one year they could've saved those 40M, if any other team had signed Neymar in 2013, Barça would've received 40M.

edit:

IMO, none of this was done to avoid taxes, after all the taxes aren't that high. All this was done to:

a) Hide money from Santos and DIS by absurd side agreements. Neymar signing cost for Real Madrid was 150M including the 40M Neymar would've had to pay Barça for breaking the agreement. For Real Madrid and for any other team in the world including Barça.

b) Play the 'look at us we are so intelligent card' with their fans. After years of criticizing Madrid's policy of high transfers, it wouldn't look good to suddenly pay 150M for a player, so first they claimed Neymar cost was only 17.1M (lol), then they had to admit it was 57.1, later it was 86.2M and after the fines and taxes who knows.
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/3otpdn/a_guide_to_neymars_transfer_ensuing_legal_battles/

The funniest thing in my opinion is of 80m shelled out by Barcelona for Neymar,40 of it was received by Neymar himself as they both had an agreement that he would be signed by Barca after the 2014 worldcup,either one who broke that agreement would have to pay the other 40m..so when teams were interested in him in 2013 and making serious bids,barca acted and paid him 40m for signing him a year earlier,well played neymar well played indeed.

Santos fucked themselves for selling potentially barring injuries a futire legend of the game for just 17m and got only 8m off it as they held only 55% of his rights.If it was not for the barca agreement this transfer would have been easier...if real wanted to buy him they would have had to pay the fee and 40m to barca since neymar wnt be wanting to pay that.
 

JohnSound

Registered User
Yeah I did, much more interested in what people on this forum have to say rather than someone from who knows where. You're right, Santos should have done much better from this deal. The world was aware of his potential for years before his move
 
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