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PES 2012 Negativity thread

DigitalFootball

Registered User
Same old PES. I am playing ML as Benfica and am playing against Sporting in the Portugal Cup quarterfinal. 0-0 with 5 minutes to go, you already know what happens next. AI's shot deflects off my defender and is heading out for a throw in. the ball magically curves to the corner flag and bounces off it for a corner instead. AI corner kick, header, goal! i get in behind the defense with a minute left, Ordaz shoots and knocks it off the woodwork, game over. So typical.
 

N'gog le God

Registered User
Sabatasso

Then i would think you are either:

A. A footballer, should be a footballer, playing at the highest level.
B. Incredibly slow.
C. Deluded and/or a liar.



I'm not just talking about bones, i mean ligaments, tendons, muscle pulls/tears whatever.

Obviously you are far more likely to injure yourself at full speed, hence so many fast players eventually losing their speed due to injuries, Owen etc. When you run at full speed [unless you are chronically slow] you put more strain on your body especially when you then try turning and changing direction sharply or try to cross the ball.


How many footballers in the world can run at full pace [if they're not very slow] and then deliver a cross which is 6 times out of 10 decent enough?
Are you serious? You really should be playing top level football if you aren't already.

I would say what makes people like Bale so special is the ability to deliver decent enough crosses whilst running at pace. This is what makes him worth 30+ million.

Obviously running with the ball then changing direction or crossing is easier the slower you are going so footballers can just slow down, as they often do, when they need to dribble or cross, but part of the problem for faster people especially, is something called momentum. How long does it take to go from full speed to standing still? [just like with a car]. One way to know how fast you are without being actually timed is to run to full speed then try stopping and see how long it takes you. Obviously player size and agility come into play, which is why many of the worlds best dribblers tend to be smaller and why players like Ronaldo and Henry, who are 6" plus, are so unique.

Therefore a lot of fast footballers tend to be unfairly derided for not being able to dribble accurately or cross accurately when they are at high speed and why football hasn't become AS dominated or obsessed with speed as American Football [Yet - maybe]

I'm not sure why i went on about dribbling in PES anyway, it clearly isn't accurate to real life but it is enjoyable. I have been as guilty as anyone in past games of taking the piss with a fast decent dribbler and just running around all over the place. It used to get boring to me after a while but i get why people like doing it.

I was talking about improving PES and making the best possible most realistic game possible. I realise making a game realistic doesn't necessarily mean it will be a good or fun game to play.

The big problem is , is that playing computer games are often easier than real life so if you make a game realistic people can just master them and you end up with none stop wonder goals all match, which isn't realistic and they become no longer special after a while.

I'm typing far too much.
 

IronCity

Banned
Yes, well, you're not entirely wrong here. But PES does not get worse, and it is evolving. Not all evolution is positive though.

You hit it Sabatasso. pardon me for deleting the rest of your post but your bolded statement is key; very well put. As Stephen Jay Gould taught us - you must cross a valley to travel from one adaptive peak to another. I think we are climbing that second peak.
 

N'gog le God

Registered User
Why are a lot of the best crossers also very slow?

Eg best in recent years is Beckham, very slow.

In the premiership people like Larsson, Brunt, Adam etc are all good crossers but they are all also slow. Might just be coincidence.

Best players in the premiership, Nani, Bale and players like Ronaldo, Messi, Robben etc are so special because they have this very RARE ability [which you also have] to dribble and cross at speed.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
You don't have to turn your whole body to bang in a cross, you can simply twist your leg and then continue to run forward. The only times I've actually fallen and hurt myself doing this is when I've been chasing a ball about to go over the line, and I banged into the commercials or jumped over them and fell on the gravel behind them.

I have played at a level comparable to Football League One in England by the way (Norwegian league, not much to brag about to be honest). And I was quite fast (60 meters in 7.1 seconds), so I do know what I am talking about here. And it's not a rare ability at all. But I say it again, the faster you travel, the less accurate your crosses and shots are, especially if you're doing it 40-60 degrees off from your actual running direction.

And from personal experience I would say a 15-20 degree turn is absolute max at full speed, and the turn would not be instant like in PES, but it's a game so that can be forgiven. If you slow a little bit down, you can turn much sharper, and much faster. 25 degree turns at 70-80% sprint should be alright once you're friendly with the ball.

If you're unable to do any of this, then you are sadly without any talent in football what so ever. Doing this under pressure in an important match, however, is what differs the good players from the bad ones. But without pressure, any amateur should be able to do this without hurting themselves in the process.

Besides, this part of the game is not what's bad at all, so I don't get why you're so obsessed with it. I suggest you concern yourself with the complete absence of defensive positioning in both your team and the AI team...
 

abu97

Registered User
look at piatti,look at nasri, adam johnson,miccoli, menez they can all run at pace and cross. only reason a lot of fast players good at crossing is because a lot of them are small with hardly power and vision and they only have pace - iniesta is another example. i could go on and no. you know what i will......
Joaquin
Vicente
rosnin
agbonlahor
di maria
bosingwa

sure some on the list arent good at crrossing but they hardly ever scuff their crosses and are mostly towards the centre
 

N'gog le God

Registered User
Abu97, one mans pace is another mans slow. I wasn't saying players can't deliver accurate crosses when they are running at "top speed" i was saying it is very very difficult and very few players can do this consistently, like in PES, unless their top speed happens to be very slow. If you can dribble at a very fast speed and deliver a cross at a very fast speed then i said this makes you a special player. Sabatasso disputes this and thinks it isn't a "rare ability at all". I personally think this opinion is a load of bologna hence me banging on about it.

Sabatasso, so i wasn't too far off then was i? There really isn't that much of difference between the level you played at and the top level, obviously apart from the few very top elite players, with a few different flips of the coin many of these players could be in opposite positions. Look at the just mentioned Vicente, once one of the best players in PES, now a bit part player for Brighton, at only 30.

So according to you most of the Worlds football players are without any talent what so ever, maybe you are right, i certainly agree with you if you are referring to players like Kuyt, or maybe this is a slight exaggeration on your part.

If you can dribble with the ball at 7.1s 60m pace with the ball under close control and then deliver a reasonable cross most of the time then i honestly think you should have been one of the World's best wingers. I don't know your current situation but i realise there is a lot of luck involved in football so keep on trying because in my opinion you are a seriously rare talent. If i was involved in football, like i wish i was and not just left to playing bloody computer games, i would snap you up in a second.

Did i say i was obsessed with it? I made a small point about a part of the game that wasn't very accurate compared to real life and how it could be improved if the game was going to be more realistic. Obviously people like you disagree and from your comments think this part of the game is perfectly accurate. I completely disagree hence my replies.

I actually said this is the least of the games worries. I actually think the dribbling and crossing are quite fun [when you have the ball that is]. I have always enjoyed the dribbling but i don't think it is realistic. I'm not actually sure i want a realistic game anyway because a lot of games of football can be incredibly boring [Arsenal the other night?] and if you play a game you want to have fun, i suppose, or why play? I want to score Maradona and George Weah goals and long range wonder goals, scoring goals of attrition aren't so fun, i have enough of that on Sunday afternoons.

You think running with the ball with it under close control at full pace then delivering decent crosses almost every time is accurate, i don't.

I would say the best player in the World at dribilling with the ball at fast pace as possible and then delivering a cross is probably Bale. I think Lennon is a great player and like Walcott he is actually capable of delivering a cross [they both take corners, now and then i think you'll find, which is basically a dead ball cross] it's just like i said, they can run much faster than most players so they are more likely to mess the cross up. This is why i think many faster players are unfairly derided for not being able to deliver more consistent crosses. But of course this is easy so they deserve all the criticism they get.


abu97 i don't think any of those players you mention can run with the ball at their full pace and deliver consistent crosses. Some are quick, good at dribbling and good at crossing yes, but they can't do it at full speed or consistently. I don't think Iniesta is only pace more of the opposite actually, I think vision is one of his best attributes and whilst his acceleration is fairly good because he is small, he lacks overall pace. Agbonlahor is lightning fast yes, but he was a raw talent and it is only recently that he has massively improved, he would often lose control of the ball, or mess up shots or crosses because of the sheer speed he was running at, like i keep banging on about.

Anyway doesn't the fact you have mentioned many of the Worlds better, once better players, who have played for some of the World's top club sides and their countries kind of back up what i was saying about it being a rare talent?
 
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Sabatasso

Banned
So according to you most of the Worlds football players are without any talent what so ever, maybe you are right, i certainly agree with you if you are referring to players like Kuyt, or maybe this is a slight exaggeration on your part.

Yes, slight is even an understatement. But my point was that it isn't, or at least shouldn't be uncommon.

If you can dribble with the ball at 7.1s 60m pace with the ball under close control and then deliver a reasonable cross most of the time then i honestly think you should have been one of the World's best wingers. I don't know your current situation but i realise there is a lot of luck involved in football so keep on trying because in my opinion you are a seriously rare talent. If i was involved in football, like i wish i was and not just left to playing bloody computer games, i would snap you up in a second.

Injury hampered me at an early age. Big strong and slow defenders tend to be merciless towards quick pacey dribblers... knees and ankles are in a bad shape to say the least. And I never ran against the clock with a ball, I was talking about sprinting without ball. Perhaps that wasn't as obvious as I thought. But I did not have much trouble outrunning backs when I was carrying the ball, but the length of the touches are dependent on the situation and the room available. Closer control means lesser speed. But the inherent head start you get from close control to full sprint in a direction change makes a pacey player keep the advantage even at moderate speeds, if one is alert towards interceptions from behind. Gambeta complements quick players greatly as opposed to "freestyle" moves, a timed body feint just as you accelerate can leave most defenders standing with the weight on the wrong foot and you got a 3-4 meter head start. The feints don't even need to be big or obvious, most defenders keep their eye on the ball most of the time, so a small movement is caught by their peripheral view, which makes their brain react before they can actually think about what they are doing. A feint with a large, or obvious movement will only fool the least experienced and players with a high tension level. "Peripheral feints" works on even Puyol. But it's harder to do than to just say it ofcourse. I was lacking severely tactical at the time, and without my pace and attack willingness, I wasn't much of a player to be honest. But speed+dribbling is often enough combined with adequacy... so who knows. I doubt my attitude was professional enough though.

You think running with the ball with it under close control at full pace then delivering decent crosses almost every time is accurate, i don't.

No, I did not actually say that. But you made it sound impossible, and I disagreed. There is a difference between the two...

I wouldn't mind crosses being less frequently dead on, but I wouldn't want full speed crossing impossible, because it isn't. And in real life, as long as you're not crossing behind the striker, a fairly un-precise cross can become precise due to the movement of the striker through anticipation, reaction and timing. (And of course finishing abilities, feet or head or whatever) At full speed, hard crosses between the defenders and the keeper is the best solution, not higher than 2 meters above ground at the highest trajectory point which should be the inner box line or near post-ish.

As a side note, perhaps FIFA is getting better, but just because we're on a PES board now doesn't mean you're the only one here that has played FIFA. FIFA and PES are in many ways similar. Not gameplay-wise ofcourse, and not in terms of visual appearance, but they both have a few good ideas. Sadly both are hampered with silly mistakes, making both quite lacking and far from complete games. FIFA is way too arcadeish, set pieces makes me almost seasick, the ball physics is at least as weird as in PES, and it's way too easy to score, but hard to score "realistic" imho.
FIFA is much more "stable" than PES in many ways, you're never in for a surprise either positively or negatively. I think FIFA is consistently bad, but thats my personal taste. I have no problem seeing that FIFA has good sides too. I just happen to prefer PES, despite its flaws. If FIFA was a good game, I would switch instantly.


Peripheral view = peripheral sight
 
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Pozz

Registered User
i had a player who was overall 68 and a cmf and all i have to do was go down the wing cut it back out to him and hed get it in the corner every but it just trickles in its odd and not that satisfying to do, it does feel a bit like a tennis match at times back and forth at such a pace, plus that annoyin blue graphic before and after every replay really grinds durin a game. i hope they can resolve things, i thought '11 was nearly perfect a few minor issues like penaltys and the replay screen and although they have resolved those problems major parts of the game feel like theyve been butchered.
 

abu97

Registered User
so you thought it was alreight for defenders to run away from the ball like monkeys in pes 2011 or let half your dumbed team to be offside?
Pes 2011 is nowhere near perfect- i mean, come on they didn't even have zonal defending
 

leeh22

Registered User
Played demo countless times and try as I might I don't like it. The fact that Jon Murphy said demo 2 is the retail version makes me even more disappointed. So much so I have cancelled my pre-order that I made in June. Yes they will patch keepers but the whole game just dont feel right.
As a fan since ISS on SNES I'm gutted that my love of pes is pretty much over. They won't nor get anywhere near pes 4,5 or 6 and that's a shame.

Roll on the demo for pes13!!!

no way man i hated the last 2 pes but this years is well good they just need to fix the goalies
 

itsame

Registered User
Ive been playing on PC and my 360 copy arrive yesterday... its been a massive let down. First the run bug, but i workaround it with 2nd controller. Then i get random freezes and disc read errors (could be my xbox, but never have this problem with other games). Not to mention the graphics, loading times and smoothness are quite shit compared to PC.

Oh well i will stick with it because i want the achievos but i can understand xbox users dismay
 

Micho

Registered User
They should fix:

1. SPEED
2. DRIBBLING
3. GOAL KEEPING
4. MARKING
5. OFFSIDE STRATEGY
6. CURSOR
7. STAMINA
8. TACKLING AND SHOOTING

1. SPEED: PLAYERS ACCELERATE LIKE CRAZY, THIS SHOULD BE TUNED TO SLOW THE GAME PACE ONLINE TO WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AND REALISTIC. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SCRATCH YOUR HEAD, ITS ABOUT WHO CAN PRESS MORE BUTTONS AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POSSESSION OR STRATEGIES.

2. DRIBBLING: SO UNREALISTIC, QUICK, BALL CONTROL IS ELUSIVE. PLAYERS SEEM TO BE DANCING LEFT AND RIGHT GLIDING ON THE PITCH LIKE A DOLPHIN IN WATER, THIS IS NON SENSE.

3. GOAL KEEPING: POSITIONING AND SHOT BLOCKING REBOUNDS TO PUNCH THE BALL MOST OF THE TIMES INSTEAD OF HANDING IT TO THE OPPONENT FOR AN EASY GOAL EVERY FUCKING TIME.

4. MARKING: ESPECIALLY BALL INTERCEPTIONS, THROUGH BALL CUTTING, DEFENDERS SHOULD BE SMART AND NOT AS DUMB AS THIS SCIENCE FICTION JAPANESE GAME IS TURNING THEM TO BE. AGAIN NON SENSE AND FRUSTRATION.

5. OFFSIDE STRATEGY: FOR GOD SAKE WATCH THE PLAYERS PERFORM THE OFFSIDE TRAP LIKE AMATEURS... TOTALLY EMBARRASSING.

6. CURSOR: AM I SUPPOSE TO BE PLAYING THE GAME OR IS THE AI SUPPOSE TO PLAY MY GAME WHILE I WATCH? I DON'T GET IT!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS BOUND CURSOR WHERE PLAYERS MOVE AGAINST MY WILL ON EVERY OCCASION?

7. STAMINA AND FATIGUE: PLAYERS PRESS AND RUSH ALL GAME LONG LIKE MONKEYS WITHOUT GETTING TIRED, THEY EVEN PRESS THE KEEPER ON EVERY BALL... FUCKING UNBELIEVABLE.

8. TACKLING: TACKLING AND SHOOTING SHOULD BE TWEAKED... IN THIS FORM ITS A JOKE.

ALL IN ALL, THIS GAME IS ABOUT PRESSING BUTTONS AND RUSHING LIKE SPEED MERCHANTS TO WIN A GAME. POSSESSION, MIDFIELD BUILDUP PLAY AND TACTICAL GAME HAVE NO VALUE WHATSOEVER... IN BRIEF THIS IS AN ARCADE GAME FOR KIDS AND NOT A SOCCER SIMULATIONS FOR SOCCER FANS. AGAIN... SEABASS DIE
 

Rasmus

Registered User
^ I bet micho is doubting if we understand his message in here. Totally understandable since he has only posted 823943923457839457238945785 negative posts about pes so far :)
 

abu97

Registered User
I have to agree with Micho apart from the ball control as turning a player is still like turning a bus. Also player dimensions in ratio to the pitch as they are too small but it is still compact.
Also graphics need to be re-designed but KONAMI have already comfirmed graphics will have a major overhaul for next PES
 

mclak

Registered User
Micho, i agree this game isn't perfect. But watching/playing Football is frustrating when your team is losing. So Seabass got that bit correct. :lol:

We will never able to get a real SIM of football, bcos of multiple reason that can't be predicted. Imagine you playing Barcelona being beaten by Getafe. You will be complaining about the players not reacting to your controls, AI is scripted. But it happened last week in real football, Barcelona beaten 1-0 by Getafe. I suppose that is scripted.

Practice mate, you will get better in it. Try adjusting your playing style.

I personally can have better midfield buildup play compare to PES 2011. PES 2012 has better AI run and players moving in to the open.

Bear in mind, I turn off all assist, cursor on semi-assist. I play around with my formation and tweak the play style to match my style.

You will get sooner or later.

If you can wait, might be easier to quit the game. Pick up FIFA if that makes it better. Honestly, I just can't play FIFA, doesn't give me a sense of achievement. I ll stop bagging FIFA, as this is not a FIFA slugfest.

:happy: Happy Trying
 

Makavelian

Registered User
Oh Konami wtf have you done to the master league :facepalm:
So much annoying shit you've added to it this year.
You fucking suck dick at management games or at trying to build a realistic structure for one .
Just drop all this player happiness and them wanting to bitch at you after every match, just get back to basics
Also well done with the team training you couldn't of made it more basic and shit if you tried.
 

Micho

Registered User
Micho, i agree this game isn't perfect. But watching/playing Football is frustrating when your team is losing. So Seabass got that bit correct. :lol:

We will never able to get a real SIM of football, bcos of multiple reason that can't be predicted. Imagine you playing Barcelona being beaten by Getafe. You will be complaining about the players not reacting to your controls, AI is scripted. But it happened last week in real football, Barcelona beaten 1-0 by Getafe. I suppose that is scripted.

Practice mate, you will get better in it. Try adjusting your playing style.

I personally can have better midfield buildup play compare to PES 2011. PES 2012 has better AI run and players moving in to the open.

Bear in mind, I turn off all assist, cursor on semi-assist. I play around with my formation and tweak the play style to match my style.

You will get sooner or later.

If you can wait, might be easier to quit the game. Pick up FIFA if that makes it better. Honestly, I just can't play FIFA, doesn't give me a sense of achievement. I ll stop bagging FIFA, as this is not a FIFA slugfest.

:happy: Happy Trying


no no and no, i disagree with what you say above big time. you dont get better or adjust to this game, its either you are playing soccer simulation or you are playing a science fiction soccer arcade shit where you need to convince yourself and others that you need to adjust or admit that you are doing something wrong while in fact the fucking game is all wrong. yes getafe and any team can beat barcelona and i dont complain about that if it happened due to GAMEPLAY AND BUILDUP OR BETTER STRATEGY

no, buildup in this game is useless all you need to do is to throw the ball out to your speed monkey upfront without building up anything, or just for the defense to make one of the many many silly stupid mistakes for no reasons or offer an own goal, or use your pressure monkeys all over the pitch to steal an easy goal or wait for the stupid fucking referee for a cheap foul or wait for the hilarious goal keeper to give you a silly rebound on open goal... least and not last, wait for the defense to trigger the joke offside trap and you will be able to run your speed chimp paste the defense and keeper once or twice to score goal...

this game sucks however and whoever will defend it because it has no fucking logic whatsoever, complete scripting arcadish garbage... and yes you can code a soccer sim, look at NBA 2K, MADDEN... and many more
 
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