Amateur,
To say that PES and FIFA are the same is pure madness, when both games are so different in reality. I wont't go into the differences as I'm sure most normal people can see them once they've PLAYED both games!
Although we would all welcome more user input, new animations, game engine etc, i think it's unrealistic to expect this for PES 2012. I've seen some of your posts in the comments section and although the ability to script individual player movements (e.g. xavi and villa) does sound interesting I don't think its something we're likely to see for at least a couple of years. On a side note, scripting indidual player movements would open up more "cheats"/"exploits" for online users and therefore would be a backward step for the franchise.
The most important factor would be the defensive end of the game, with the defensive game that I have in mind the "scripts" would be impossible to exploit.
I could explain what I have in mind in detail, but that would bore the hell out of you. But the bottom line of the story is, that the ability of designing your own scripts would actually get rid of cheap exploits....
Because the computer would know exactly how and when the selected forward (David Villa) would move, therefore on the defensive end, the computer would automatically cursor change itself to the defender whom is marking David Villa. And as a defender whom is marking the selected forward, you would have a wide array of options wrapped in a very simple to use control scheme.
Without user-made-scripts, it is more or less impossible to have a competent defensive system, because the computer does not know what the player in possession of the ball intends to do, which makes it necessary for the computer to pull the strings in order to determine momentum shifts; of course, the problem is, that such com-dictated momentum shifts completely undermine the ability of the user.
then what should KONAMI do so that PES can be in the right direction?
inlighten us please!
i got both games and i can tell that they are nothing alike. they look different, they play different. what are you talking about man?
Listen, looking back at my response I sound a lot more aggressive than how I wanted it to sound, perhaps saying "fuck" so much times is the reason why.
But anyways. What should Konami do so that PES can go in the same direction? Why do I say that PES and FIFA are basically identical twins?
One answer would be enough to answer the pair of questions: off the ball movement, it is determined by the left analog stick, and that creates all the cheap exploits.
FIFA and PES, despite all the trivial differences that you can come up with, play the same way when it comes to off the ball movement: direct the left analog stick and then press the sprint button.
Why do I need to use the left analog stick in order to determine the direction in which I run without the ball?
It's not necessary at all, and it is the main reason for why the game is not capable of going in the right direction.
As for going in the right direction, PES5 and PES6 appeared to be going in the right direction.... but then came PES08.... you know why? Because Konami was not making any fundamental changes to how the game plays, and was merely refining the same game until the same game could no longer improve anymore.
PES12 will be a refined version of PES11, and PES11 is based on PES1O: PES11 does not have the fundamentals that would be necessary in order to go in the right direction, it's full of holes and has done nothing to improve the decade old flaws of PES.
At the end of the day, the most important thing is if you genuinely enjoy playing the video game. I cannot genuinely enjoy the video game, and it's not because I think is rubbish, it's because I think it's very outdated and simplistic, would've been cool four years ago.
They're still very different. Believe me, I am not saying it looks awesome or anything like that, but they're still different. Pes 12 looks nothing like fifa 12, maybe from your aspect of headless chickens, maybe, but apart from that, they's not alike.
I get what you mean, power_25 said more or less the same thing. In my opinion, I do not really care about trivial differences such as the animations nor about the focus of the game, I focus more on the off the ball movement, and the off the ball movement is determined by the same exact factor in both PES and FIFA, and it ultimately looks like a bunch of dudes running around like headless chickens, it doesn't look like football to me.
Fifa 11 is all based around strength and battles of strength with no close control individuality and many 1 vs 1's. That's fifa's downfall.
Pes' downfall in 11 were many things like animations, defenders catching up, attackers not in position and not moving, attackers slowing down because the game wants to, CURSOR switching and USER INPUT which was small in value.
Pes doesn't have fifa's flaws so they can't be the same.
If pes nails the user input, it would be much, much better.
Also, Seabss (not that I believe him), isn't focusing on AI only btw. He said that the cursor will be fixed FINALLY and the animations will be smoother and the game would respond better to your controls.
I hope he delivers what he says he'll improve because those are key areas.
In my opinion, in order to improve USER INPUT you must change how the game plays. And as far as I know, Seabass is not doing anything to improve the USER INPUT.
At the end of the day, PES12 and PES11 will be equally poor in terms of USER INPUT. That's what I think anyways.
let's not get angry here guys i think the point Amateur is making is that the difference in the 2 games isn't that obvious anymore.
in the past you could look at an AI controlled game on PES and believe it really was a football match, and that was before the stunning graphics we have now. the behaviour of the players and teams in PES plus the decisions the AI made, made it look realistic. the ball physics and tempo made it complete and again this was before the strong consoles we have now, so we expected better and have become much more critical because the games in the past made us watch football much more critical then before.
this is the reason why we can't be satisfied with what was great in the past because we expect and feel we deserve much more.
for me FIFA has never delivered so i still have to be surprised by them but to see PES go down the same road with the glitters and ballerina's on the field makes me mad.
the same unresponsive shit coupled with a stupid AI, that FIFA has gotten away with for all these years KONAMI are trying to shove up our butts.
the problem is the masses like the game because its just like the FIFA they are used to and love.
the harcore football fans seem to be in the minority so the biggest question that will be answered with the release of PES2012 is who will KONAMI choose to make a game for, the masses which help the sales and make them rich or the hardcore that appreciate and are willing to kill for a proper football sim.
at the moment yes from a distance they do look alike but when u look much closer the tempo, player models and animations give PES away and when u play them PES edges it but just by a little bit and that is just unacceptable from my point of view.
Fully agree. That's precisely what I was trying to say, though you expressed yourself much better than I did.
