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Second Demo, Second Opinion

metsuri69

Registered User
Consider Amateur as a troll with sophisticated language and a classy hat.
You get the picture enough to simply ignore.

This time he in fact has some point.
I don't see any reasonable needs to overly complicate controls as Amateur wishes, but I'd like to see analog stick being used as analog when it comes to runnning speed. Simply put, you press analog stick a bit your player runs slower.
This would make it easier to fine tune & hover around like you wish.

But I'm very happy that in PES2012 they haven't gone to invent the wheel over again to implement half-working features, like they've done past 3 years.
But instead used all resources on making what they had (PES2011) into better. Like they did in PES5-PES6 and we all know how those versions were loved.

Maybe next year would be again time to implement some new stuff.
 

bobbetonth

Registered User
Hello guys,

I have tried the demo on my PC. To be honest, it felt great. One of the key things that I love is the ability to 'control' a second player. I see a great potential in it (and a possible way to cheat too). Though it's hard (having to control 2 players at the same time) but it's very rewarding if you managed to pull it off. As for the player control, it feels a little bit clunky. The keepers are much better (compared to the first demo) and hopefully they can tweak it much further for the final version.

As for the new mode, can't wait to get my hands on it. Overall, I am happy but at the same time I wouldn't mind if Konami wants to improve the game even further.

I intend to do a quick demonstration of the gameplay on the Youtube because it's too much to write. Perhaps an exhibition match would do the trick. A picture is worth a thousand words. A video? You do the math.
 

shaun7

Registered User
Sup Shaun7,

Although i don't always agree with you points, you are a smart dude and from your join date (2005) i know you are true PES fanatic ...but fair. Not like some noobs here who have recently joined and claim they have been playing since ISS. In my opinion, anyone who played ISS was scouring the internet like myself for OF everyday...which lead me to join almost every PES site on the internet.

I have played both demos and i find it difficult to defend in fifa....it is doing my friggin head in.

So if you figure Fifa's new defending out please let me know how.

PES 12 seems similar in terms of defending but more even.. the game plays a lot better than previous releases. I just hate the animations ..but thats just me.

Cheers

Yes, pes does have a very different defending system this year, like fifa. So I need more time with both. However, on fifa, I think it's best if you close the spaces with your controlled player and make pressure wisely with the 2nd player. However it seems different. I surely need more time with both games.

Yeah, the pes animations are outdated, but at least this year, the link between 2 animations is smooth unlike in pes 11. Better than nothing :). But they are nothing compared to fifa's animations that's for sure.
 

mvrander

Registered User
I don't think I have a low IQ or anything... in fact 99% of the time I understand what other posters are on abour, but.....

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?

I learned a long time ago to skip straight past anything he posts, I suggest you do the same.

The pattern goes like this.

First person posts an opinion.
Sombody then replies.
Amateur then posts an essay the length of the Old Testament based on his mythical control system and terminology that he has convinced himself is the aim of life itself, not just football gaming. This theory will include lots and lots of really long words and jargon he's just invented.
He will then insult everyone for not understanding his grand vision for perfection in life, the world and everything.

The fact that his mystical control system has probably been tried and discarded by every game developer in the world doesn't seem to occur to him.

I'm sure he's a lovely bloke but skip past his posts and your day will be much better.
 

muffinmak

Registered User
athlon, you just have to come to grips and accept their new defending philosophy. However, you have a point. They should allow you to stab at the ball at will regardless of the frequency of standing tackles in real life. They could implementing something like pressing O when holding onto X to stab out.
 

DIECI

Registered User
I don't agree with the OP, I think this new demo is much better than the 1st one and feel the game will be good. Defending is not as clear cut as in the past, you need to time your tackle, organize your back line and switch to a more desirable defender to cut off angles and take away passing lanes. When watching a football game on TV you don't see players rushing in and tackling left and right and taking the ball away like in the older PES and even FIFA games. They fight for the ball, and more times than not don't take it away but force the offensive player into a mistake that makes them lose the ball, intercept a pass or force them where they don't want to go. I feel this year's defending, when we actually mastered could feel very rewarding and look and feel more realistic than the traditional hold X down and simply steal the ball away.
 

DIECI

Registered User
athlon, you just have to come to grips and accept their new defending philosophy. However, you have a point. They should allow you to stab at the ball at will regardless of the frequency of standing tackles in real life. They could implementing something like pressing O when holding onto X to stab out.


if you hold X down and rush the defender, if you release the X you will stab at the ball, you just need to time it well.
 

riahc3

Registered User
My impression was that Ribery was slow as hell...

BTW, I like "crazyiness" and "fast" gameplay. Dont like it? FIFA 12 is there for you.
 

Montanaro

Registered User
I still love how the AI dribbler can avoid your slide tackle 95% of the time...Just like in WE7

*decides to slide tackle...ai CB puts on instant brake and changes direction leaving me dumbfounded*
 

King of Lyon

Registered User
In a game where speed and acceleration are crucial, I find it shocking the analog and pressure sensitive buttons on the controller are used like regular buttons. You could play this game with PS2 controllers, yet the PS2 games were better.
 

DIECI

Registered User
I still love how the AI dribbler can avoid your slide tackle 95% of the time...Just like in WE7

*decides to slide tackle...ai CB puts on instant brake and changes direction leaving me dumbfounded*

:lol: me too!! I got so frustrated the other day that I tried to slide on him from behind but still missed hhaahahahah! hey everyone wanted a challenging AI, now we got it :shocking:
 

Amateur

Registered User
Sorry Athlon, but I'm not with you at all. How many tackles does John Terry make in a game? Answer - perhaps one or two. In NINETY F'KIN MINUTES!!

I'm sorry, but could you please explain what the fuck is your point??

You know how much minutes of play PES offers you? 10 minutes for most people. You know how many goals I can score in just 10 minutes of play? Easily four or five goals, if I feel like it. You know how many real teams can score five goals in just 10 minutes of play?? I don't remember the last time I saw that, quite possibly I have never seen such a thing.

The point being, obviously, why the fuck are you comparing REAL FOOTBALL with PES? One is 90 minutes long, the other is 10 minutes long.

And -- NO -- John Terry does not tackle once or twice in 90 minutes of fucking play; please, I'm not fucking stupid, I watch and play real football, I know that a CB makes more than one or two tackles in 90 minutes of play.

Furthermore, John Terry tackles about five or seven times in a game, because he is a CB, he is not often in a situation where he needs to tackle; on the other hand, a defensive midfielder does need to tackle CONSTANTLY throughout the game.

Have you ever watched a game of football and counted the number of times each player from each position tackles throughout the 90 minutes of play?? Let me tell you, it is a very high number, with the defensive midfielder, the wide backs, the center backs, the center midfielders, the forwards, all executing standing tackles at different times.

Your argument does not make sense, it is a false argument, as simple as that. I can appreciate the fact that YOU think *laughs* that PES has tackling spot on, it is your opinion, but don't forget that your opinion is far away from reality; please do yourself a favor, watch some real football, count the number of times each player from each position tackles throughout the 90 minutes of play, you will find that a lot of standing tackles are thrown.

Have you ever seen Cristiano Ronaldo trying to dribble against Dani Alves?? Have you ever noticed the amount of standing tackles that Dani Alves uses in order to frustrate Ronaldo? Have you noticed that Ronaldo rarely, if ever, manages to dribble past Dani Alves? Can you honestly say that PES12 is spot on about that?

Come on now, be fucking real, dribbling in PES12 is not realistic at all, it might be entertaining, the same way that PES5 and PES6 were entertaining, but to say that it is "realistic" is just bullshit.


I don't think I have a low IQ or anything... in fact 99% of the time I understand what other posters are on abour, but.....

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?

Your IQ means fuck all, and if your stupidity at understanding obvious matters is anything to go by, then you don't really have much of an IQ I'm afraid to say.

Please do explain why you cannot understand the following point.....

Is directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, still enough to simultaneously determine three completely unrelated factors (1st) direction that the player is looking at and (2nd) direction that the player runs towards and (3rd) direction in which the player passes the ball?

Allow me to explain -- direct the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button -- what happens? What happens is that you will simultaneously determine three completely unrelated factors (1st) direction that the player is looking at (2nd) direction that the player runs towards (3rd) direction in which the player passes the ball.

Furthermore -- direct the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button -- what happens? What happens is very simple, the ball carrier will actually start running towards the given direction, even though you are not pressing the sprint button.

Movement within space -- draw a circle on the floor, position yourself inside it, dance inside it, move inside or within the space that you occupy.

Movement through space -- draw a circle on the floor, position yourself inside it, then move to the outside space and continue moving indefinitely without ever actually moving inside the space that you occupy.

If you fail to understand such a simple concept, then you might have low IQ, or perhaps it has nothing to do with IQ, perhaps it has more to do with the fact that you couldn't care less about the point that I'm putting across, yet you felt the need to quote me because you do not want to understand a very simple point; no, it's not my fault that you want to behave like a fucking moron.

Consider Amateur as a troll with sophisticated language and a classy hat.
You get the picture enough to simply ignore.

This time he in fact has some point.
I don't see any reasonable needs to overly complicate controls as Amateur wishes, but I'd like to see analog stick being used as analog when it comes to runnning speed. Simply put, you press analog stick a bit your player runs slower.

That's actually a very bad idea, analog should be used for direction of dribbling and direction of feints, not for the speed of movement; if the left analog stick determined the speed of movement, it would obviously interfere with the direction of passing and with the direction of movement, and it would therefore be fundamentally flawed.

Direction should be determined by the analog, running speed should be determined by another button, as simple as that.

By the way, I am not a fan of complicated control schemes such as having to bash the R1 + R2 button, which is obviously neither intuitive nor comfortable; I want simple, but I do not want the stupid and outdated system that PES uses, as I think that considering that fucking year 2012 is upon us, we should have more advanced and sophisticated footy sims.
 

muffinmak

Registered User
if you hold X down and rush the defender, if you release the X you will stab at the ball, you just need to time it well.

Thanks for the tip, however I just realized that its more like tapping R2!!!

TRUST me tapping R2 gives you instant stabbing!!!!
 

riahc3

Registered User
Come on now, be fucking real, dribbling in PES12 is not realistic at all, it might be entertaining, the same way that PES5 and PES6 were entertaining, but to say that it is "realistic" is just bullshit.
The way it needs to be done. I want entertaining, not FIFA 12 bullshit.

If you want "realistic" FIFA is there for you.
 

Kefir

Registered User
I have not played either demo of PES12, but I can tell you that I know what to expect even though I have not played the game; I do not necessarily agree with you 100%, but I agree with the general statement.

I'm talking of course, about why the fuck is movement within space still impossible?? It is fucking year 2012 for Seabass's sake, why the fuck are we still playing ARCADE GAMES where directing the pass and directing the movement is determined by merely directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button??

PLAYER INDIVIDUALITY is as simple as this.... implement movement within the space.... in other words, get fucking rid of the old system, implement a new system where the direction of passing does not interferes with the direction of movement, a new system where the left analog stick can affect movement through space and movement within space independently as well as simultaneously, and without fucking complicated and retarded controls schemes such as R1 + R2 (WTF?)

As a result, better dribblers will have more directions of dribbling (not running) when running at a player, players whom are better at protecting the ball will have more directions of movement (not running) when stationary; on the defensive end, average defenders would have less directions of standing tackles, average defenders would only have ONE chance to tackle every time you get close enough to the ball carrier, whereas world class defenders can tackle repetitively even when unsuccessful.

SIMPLE.... Amount of directions that a standing tackle can be directed.... Amount of times that a standing tackle can be used every time you close down the ball carrier.... Now that's player individuality.

What PES does, is that John Terry is supposed to tackle better than the average defender, but you do not actually control the tackle, you cannot actually control the direction of the tackle because directions in that dimension (within space) do not exist within the practical confines of the video game, and furthermore, you cannot even control the timing of the tackle.

I think the lack of movement within space, completely ignoring the look of the animations, and completely focusing on the practicality of the system, is more and more noticeable with each passing year. It is clear that Konami and EA Sports want to continue milking the same cow for years to come, I just hope a third party exposes how outdated PES and FIFA truly are.

I really didn't imagine things would be like this, back when I was playing PES5, I imagined that footy sims would be very advanced in year 2012, though unfortunately, the reality is that PES12 and FIFA12 are just PS2 era arcade games with nice graphics and nice animations.



Yeah that was 5 years ago.... I fail to see why the inability to progress should be celebrated.

Though having said that, PES5 and PES6 are entertaining, and some credible people have stated that PES12 is the first PES in a long time that can be compared in terms of pure entertainment.


It was an awesome movie eventhough i didnt see it.

Idiot ranting the game he hasnt played.
 

zz400

Registered User
why de ass men getting emo for a fucking game for dred ? come fellas is a game.some may like some may hate.wtf is the point of all this shit
 

Amateur

Registered User
The way it needs to be done. I want entertaining, not FIFA 12 bullshit.

If you want "realistic" FIFA is there for you.

Now why should "realistic" play like FIFA? Is FIFA "realistic"? Far from it. You have no idea about what "realistic" actually means, yet you are already dismissing it.

And if it isn't obvious enough for you, I never mentioned "FIFA" once, the fact that you identify "FIFA" with "REALISTIC" tells me everything I need to know about you as a consumer; but whatever, if it makes you feel any better, yes, FIFA is there for me, and let me tell you, it feels so good.

It was an awesome movie eventhough i didnt see it.

Idiot ranting the game he hasnt played.

My criticism is not subjective, I am not criticizing the execution of the game, I am criticizing the fundamentals; and, obviously, I do not need to play the game in order to criticize the fundamentals; fact is, PES12 is based on PES11, the foundation is the same at the core, I do not need to play the game to know that.

As for subjective criticism, please tell me where I criticized the feel of the animations or how responsive the game is? Did I criticized the passing or the shooting? Did I personally offended a specific person with my criticism? Why are you personally offending me just because I was criticizing a video game?

As always, the proverbial fanboy, insulting a person over a damn video game; you can't even tell the difference between subjective criticism and objective criticism.
 

fideco

Registered User
I'm very disappointed about defense:too easy to concede goal...
I think defense is broken because AI attackers and midfielders have been tweaked up too much in 2nd demo by Konami.
In other words, no matter who is the AI player, his core abilities (agility, dribbling, response...) have been artificially increased and the teams are now more leveled.
I see things on the field terrifying me:Internacional players who continuously control the ball and dribble like Messi. I think there good pass rate is over 90%, while in real life is about 70%-75%.

Therefore gameplay in 2nd demo has been destroyed, in the best tradition of konami.
I'm not optimistic because Konami does not listen to his fans and makes bad decisions based only on the internal feedback Company (probably some Marketing Guru who does not understand anything about football).
< The second demo is worse than the first -----------> The final game will probably be worse than the 2nd demo>
 
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