Some points on the gameplay..

[Muzak0ne]

Hi everyone! Mini intro.. pesgaming.com n00b lurked a while last year, first year playing ML.

First played PES back when it was ISS for the N64 but more recently been big into Ultimate Team, was blown away by the gameplay in PES 2016 OFFLINE, online was a mess so I was back playing FUT for the hit but been getting all the satisfaction I need from PES 2017 this year

First off, i was always dead against playing CPU, think that's why I never bothered with ML.
Tried it this year after some recommendations and absolutely love it. Really enjoy the combination of wheeling and dealing in the transfers as well as then playing the games. some amazing goals and matches along the way.. the joy of finding a good youth talent. buying the right player to fit the team, watching them flourish etc..

Still dip into myClub now and again and try for some legends (Ronaldinho please!) but switching back from ML, that fooking camera angle is killing me. anyways..

____________________________________________________________



Some thoughts on the gameplay for discussion.. I play on Top Player but i think my points are pretty relevant and maybe to Superstar as well.

I wanna start by taking up a point that another member (VALENCIA?) made on here the other day.. i didn't get a chance to reply until now and i couldn't find the thread again so apologies, but it was something i'd be thinking about previously and i think it was a great point to make..

the AI get away with so much aggressive fouling and we never get any penalties because this is the only way the game can be set at specific levels of difficulty
the developers simply aren't capable of programming what we would describe as a totally balanced game

so for example if they toned down the AI aggression and they gave penalties and they penalized bad challenges and gave loads of cards.. the game would be too easy.

us players would find ways to easily dribble or pass our way through the AI defence to frequently

It is probably a very, very fine line in terms of programming the AI.

Another example is the way they let defenders catch up on attackers even if lacking in speed and a few yards behind..

so i play a through ball through to Neymar, he has 2 yards head start on Per Mertesacker but yet the defender will always catch up with the attacker (maybe if you do a skill move and cut across the defender or something you will get a run in on goal but for the purpose of this point we'll say both players are running straight line.. ) Neymar should NEVER be caught in a straight race when getting a head start against a slow defender but in this game he will be.

Now again i think this is the game's only way of keeping the difficulty at a specific level.

Because the AI have made great improvements in terms of their off the ball runs it would simply be TOO EASY for us players to play through balls into the attackers that make intelligent runs. so if we keep playing the ball through to a speedy forward who due to the brilliant off the ball running AI has got in behind the defence, we would have tons and tons of goal-scoring opportunities.
Too many to keep the game at a specific higher level difficulty

So how do they FIX this?

How do they make it a balanced game, which essentially means how do they make sure we players don't score loads more goals than the AI at higher difficulties..
Do they reduce the aggressiveness, award more penalties and penalise AI fouls? -

Would they then have to compensate for that by either -
making the attacking AI even better, making it harder for us to defend against
make the AI retain ball possession extremely well so we can't make the chances (would be rather frustrating too)

or is it simply a case of the developers programming the AI better.. can they make it so the AI don't have to rugby tackle to keep the score down. can they tackle correctly, stay in position, be aggressive but fair, keep possession intelligently and attack at the right times..

again the line must be very fine when programming all these factors. i simply don't know enough about developing a game to know if this is down to lazy programming, lack of resources in terms of manpower when making this game each year OR if it's simply not technically achievable at this point in football games evolution??

starting to ramble so i'll leave it here for now.. i have a lot more points (many positive) to make regarding the gameplay and i'll use this thread to keep updating and add those later. I encourage others to do the same


EDIT: How the hell do i change the colour of the text, when i click n the A icon nothing happens and it's set to black. lol

 

[valencia5]

Hi everyone! Mini intro.. pesgaming.com n00b lurked a while last year, first year playing ML.

First played PES back when it was ISS for the N64 but more recently been big into Ultimate Team, was blown away by the gameplay in PES 2016 OFFLINE, online was a mess so I was back playing FUT for the hit but been getting all the satisfaction I need from PES 2017 this year

First off, i was always dead against playing CPU, think that's why I never bothered with ML.
Tried it this year after some recommendations and absolutely love it. Really enjoy the combination of wheeling and dealing in the transfers as well as then playing the games. some amazing goals and matches along the way.. the joy of finding a good youth talent. buying the right player to fit the team, watching them flourish etc..

Still dip into myClub now and again and try for some legends (Ronaldinho please!) but switching back from ML, that fooking camera angle is killing me. anyways..

____________________________________________________________



Some thoughts on the gameplay for discussion.. I play on Top Player but i think my points are pretty relevant and maybe to Superstar as well.

I wanna start by taking up a point that another member (VALENCIA?) made on here the other day.. i didn't get a chance to reply until now and i couldn't find the thread again so apologies, but it was something i'd be thinking about previously and i think it was a great point to make..

the AI get away with so much aggressive fouling and we never get any penalties because this is the only way the game can be set at specific levels of difficulty
the developers simply aren't capable of programming what we would describe as a totally balanced game

so for example if they toned down the AI aggression and they gave penalties and they penalized bad challenges and gave loads of cards.. the game would be too easy.

us players would find ways to easily dribble or pass our way through the AI defence to frequently

It is probably a very, very fine line in terms of programming the AI.

Another example is the way they let defenders catch up on attackers even if lacking in speed and a few yards behind..

so i play a through ball through to Neymar, he has 2 yards head start on Per Mertesacker but yet the defender will always catch up with the attacker (maybe if you do a skill move and cut across the defender or something you will get a run in on goal but for the purpose of this point we'll say both players are running straight line.. ) Neymar should NEVER be caught in a straight race when getting a head start against a slow defender but in this game he will be.

Now again i think this is the game's only way of keeping the difficulty at a specific level.

Because the AI have made great improvements in terms of their off the ball runs it would simply be TOO EASY for us players to play through balls into the attackers that make intelligent runs. so if we keep playing the ball through to a speedy forward who due to the brilliant off the ball running AI has got in behind the defence, we would have tons and tons of goal-scoring opportunities.
Too many to keep the game at a specific higher level difficulty

So how do they FIX this?

How do they make it a balanced game, which essentially means how do they make sure we players don't score loads more goals than the AI at higher difficulties..
Do they reduce the aggressiveness, award more penalties and penalise AI fouls? -

Would they then have to compensate for that by either -
making the attacking AI even better, making it harder for us to defend against
make the AI retain ball possession extremely well so we can't make the chances (would be rather frustrating too)

or is it simply a case of the developers programming the AI better.. can they make it so the AI don't have to rugby tackle to keep the score down. can they tackle correctly, stay in position, be aggressive but fair, keep possession intelligently and attack at the right times..

again the line must be very fine when programming all these factors. i simply don't know enough about developing a game to know if this is down to lazy programming, lack of resources in terms of manpower when making this game each year OR if it's simply not technically achievable at this point in football games evolution??

starting to ramble so i'll leave it here for now.. i have a lot more points (many positive) to make regarding the gameplay and i'll use this thread to keep updating and add those later. I encourage others to do the same


EDIT: How the hell do i change the colour of the text, when i click n the A icon nothing happens and it's set to black. lol

Agree completely, I've been bitching about this for a while lol. They did it in FIFA last year to the extreme...lsuper annoying.

I'm not much of a programmer, but you'll see in my other posts, this is exactly what I've been saying. These are easy fix bandaids, instead of improving the defensive AI as a whole, which is probably very very difficult....they give superhuman abilities to individuals, and blatant over leniency for fouls, as well as a ton of other things...to improve the defenders individually, which in turn makes the game harder.

In the chaos theory of life, there are an infinite amount of factors, which go into deciding what happens...from the senses, intelligence of the players, to their mood, to their coaches orders, just infinite....anything you can think of, to illustrate...a guy's baby was sick, so he had to stay home, missed his flight the day before, couldn't see a game, in which he would have energized his section in the stands, and pissed of a coach, who would be irritable and sub a player, who was just about to break out of his slump, and score a hat trick...

The reason I say that is, because that's how infinite it is in life, the programming is absolutely finite...and I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that adjusting the AI logic, is a matter of small percentages over a long period of time....and the slightest change can have huge implications over a period of time with all the things happening....and cannot in nature, match the chaos and randomness of life.

One thing that happens in real life is, the defenders are formulating what the offense is trying to do, even when the fullbacks/cb's are getting ready to set up the build up play....don't know for sure, but would/could the PS4 or the program be able to support, all 11 players on D, actually trying to figure out what all 10 opponent outfielders may or may not do, are trying to fool them, misdirect them, confuse them, dummy run them, who knows....seems super intense and difficult to do without any errors or craziness...but this is what happens in real life...

How can PES make the defense more rigid overall, but more flexible in dealing with a very large number of potential situations....probably insanely hard to do, I can see it creating a whole lot of bugs and crazy stuff happening...so back to the reason why the bandaids are made, it's easier to fix it that way.

I understand, but I hate it though lol. The AI on Superstar barely scores any goals against me...like probably 1 goal every 5-10 games...which is nuts....I'm not even that amazing of a player. Shows that things are kind of out of balance.

 

[valencia5]

Muzaka, check these two threads....they're not super long...but you may be interested based on your post.

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=101193

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=101282

 

[DunkLFC]

... Another example is the way they let defenders catch up on attackers even if lacking in speed and a few yards behind..

so i play a through ball through to Neymar, he has 2 yards head start on Per Mertesacker but yet the defender will always catch up with the attacker (maybe if you do a skill move and cut across the defender or something you will get a run in on goal but for the purpose of this point we'll say both players are running straight line.. ) Neymar should NEVER be caught in a straight race when getting a head start against a slow defender but in this game he will be. ...

Hi, you are definitely correct in your observations. Although, the last statement in the bit I've quoted above isn't *always* the case. Yes it should be with Mertesacker, who is incredibly slow, but otherwise a striker dribbling the ball loses a lot off his top pace, so most defenders will slowly catch most strikers unless they are true speed demons. Also, are you double tapping the R1 button in between touches when sprinting with the ball? If not, then you are not putting the striker at full dribbling pace.

I have noticed that with a bit of practice, you can perfect the timing of certain actions that enables you to get away from a defender. Yes, it does involve cutting across a defender's path on occasion, but then strikers are taught to do this in real life for this very reason.

Getting back to Mertesacker, I think his ability to pull someone back despite a speed of 64 is due to the combination of the following :-
1) His "Physical Contact" stat of 95. This means that if he's close to you he's pretty much guaranteed some form of action without you being able to shield the ball from him. He'll either nudge your player of the ball, or use his 89 "Defensive Prowess" and 87 "Ball Winning"to stick a foot in and win the ball.
2) While his "Speed" is only 64, his "Stamina" is 79 and CBs don't get as tired during a PES match as AMs or WFs. So, the speed difference is brought down as the game progresses.
3) He has a "Form" of 6, which means he's going to get a buff to his stats most matches, making him even better!

Note, I'm not saying that this means Mertesacker should have this amazing ability to drag players back, but that the stats Konami have given him have made him like this in the game. Essentially, they made him too good.

 

[valencia5]

Hi, you are definitely correct in your observations. Although, the last statement in the bit I've quoted above isn't *always* the case. Yes it should be with Mertesacker, who is incredibly slow, but otherwise a striker dribbling the ball loses a lot off his top pace, so most defenders will slowly catch most strikers unless they are true speed demons. Also, are you double tapping the R1 button in between touches when sprinting with the ball? If not, then you are not putting the striker at full dribbling pace.

I have noticed that with a bit of practice, you can perfect the timing of certain actions that enables you to get away from a defender. Yes, it does involve cutting across a defender's path on occasion, but then strikers are taught to do this in real life for this very reason.

Getting back to Mertesacker, I think his ability to pull someone back despite a speed of 64 is due to the combination of the following :-
1) His "Physical Contact" stat of 95. This means that if he's close to you he's pretty much guaranteed some form of action without you being able to shield the ball from him. He'll either nudge your player of the ball, or use his 89 "Defensive Prowess" and 87 "Ball Winning"to stick a foot in and win the ball.
2) While his "Speed" is only 64, his "Stamina" is 79 and CBs don't get as tired during a PES match as AMs or WFs. So, the speed difference is brought down as the game progresses.
3) He has a "Form" of 6, which means he's going to get a buff to his stats most matches, making him even better!

Note, I'm not saying that this means Mertesacker should have this amazing ability to drag players back, but that the stats Konami have given him have made him like this in the game. Essentially, they made him too good.

Good stuff, but in any case with a 2 yard head start....there's no realistic situation, in real life which he should ever catch him...let alone this being a normal thing in PES.

Unless of course, the attacker was exhausted, injured, or made some sort of mistake...but even then, a pro footballer should be able to maintain some level of performance that isn't such a huge drop off...that someone like Mertesacker should catch him...or the manager would notice the problem beforehand and sub him...

In any case, Mertesacker catching the pacey attacker with a 2 yard head start.....including the fact Mertesacker has to his orientation(directional not sexual lol)....should absolutely not be the default/normal outcome, but it is.

So in a perfect world his other attributes should not even come into play, as he should not even be close enough to him, be not only 2 yards away, but that gap would realistically increase in, what should be the case.

Ratings boost, stamina, etc aside...even if we're talking a small percentage of times, it might be possible for him to achieve this in real life...the problem is, in this football "simulation" it should absolutely not be a normal outcome.

Cheers!

 

[DunkLFC]

A bit of a repeat from a previous thread, but last night I only had this once and it wasn't when my player was in full stride. It was when I was still trying to break away from the defender. The FB basically moved at inhuman speed, so it was very weird to see.

I did get the slow-mo issue, where you struggle to get your attacker to accelerate, which usually only happens as you approach the ball.

All the times my fast players (Sterling and mini-me) got a lead on a defender and they were at full dribbling speed, I never got caught up. A couple of my midfielders did get caught up, but then only one of them is above average pace.

 

[DunkLFC]

A bit of a repeat from a previous thread, but last night I only had this once and it wasn't when my player was in full stride. It was when I was still trying to break away from the defender. The FB basically moved at inhuman speed, so it was very weird to see.

I did get the slow-mo issue, where you struggle to get your attacker to accelerate, which usually only happens as you approach the ball.

All the times my fast players (Sterling and mini-me) got a lead on a defender and they were at full dribbling speed, I never got caught up. A couple of my midfielders did get caught up, but then only one of them is above average pace.

 

[Kazuki_Ito]

Without knowing how the game is coded I can only speculate but there are certain things that happen now and then that make the think that they happen to 'increase the difficulty'.

Your players running onto through passes is one of these. If things are going well for me my wingers will sprint straight onto loose balls or through passes without slowing down and I can counterattack really well. When things are going badly (perhaps when I have low team spirit) the same players will stop almost completely when getting to the ball then they will start sprinting again giving the CPU players a chance to catch up.

Also I can't help but notice that there are times where my forwards with good shooting stats will consistently shoot 2yards wide of either post over and over even when they are unchallenged when shooting. Manual aiming helps counter this but it seems a bit unnatural and that it only happens 'to make the game more difficult' if you like.

 

[valencia5]

A bit of a repeat from a previous thread, but last night I only had this once and it wasn't when my player was in full stride. It was when I was still trying to break away from the defender. The FB basically moved at inhuman speed, so it was very weird to see.

I did get the slow-mo issue, where you struggle to get your attacker to accelerate, which usually only happens as you approach the ball.

All the times my fast players (Sterling and mini-me) got a lead on a defender and they were at full dribbling speed, I never got caught up. A couple of my midfielders did get caught up, but then only one of them is above average pace.

I'm surprised you haven't seen more of this...it's super common...but maybe since you've stated you're more of a tiki taka player....may have limited those types of balls...

I am truly hating the "knock on" mechanic on this game with the double tap sprint...

I can see it when he's not running with the ball, FIFA handled this beautifully with the stick flick forward....then you can sprint after the ball....

Half the time in PES 17, I don't noticed a speed increase if dribbling...and if he does knock the ball on, he slows down before he knocks it....frustrating so I stopped doing it....

Only works if you're beating someone from a complete stop....

 

[DunkLFC]

I'm surprised you haven't seen more of this...it's super common...but maybe since you've stated you're more of a tiki taka player....may have limited those types of balls...

I mix it up. My default is to attack down the wings and put crosses in. If the opposition are blocking this approach, I'll try going through the middle and I cannot dribble through as my midfielders are ball winners and passers, designed to feed the wingers. So if I do go down the middle, it has to be lots of one-touch passing.

I am truly hating the "knock on" mechanic on this game with the double tap sprint...

I can see it when he's not running with the ball, FIFA handled this beautifully with the stick flick forward....then you can sprint after the ball....

Half the time in PES 17, I don't noticed a speed increase if dribbling...and if he does knock the ball on, he slows down before he knocks it....frustrating so I stopped doing it....

Only works if you're beating someone from a complete stop....

Ah, I would recommend persevering with the technique. It definitely makes a difference and also stops them easily winning the ball with sliding tackles. This is how I win lots of freekicks, from them lunging in after I've tapped the ball ahead of me. I was getting the awkward slowdown at first as well, which is when you do the double tap as you arrive at the ball. After keeping practicing that, I only accidentally get that once every 10 matches or so.

 

[valencia5]

I mix it up. My default is to attack down the wings and put crosses in. If the opposition are blocking this approach, I'll try going through the middle and I cannot dribble through as my midfielders are ball winners and passers, designed to feed the wingers. So if I do go down the middle, it has to be lots of one-touch passing.



Ah, I would recommend persevering with the technique. It definitely makes a difference and also stops them easily winning the ball with sliding tackles. This is how I win lots of freekicks, from them lunging in after I've tapped the ball ahead of me. I was getting the awkward slowdown at first as well, which is when you do the double tap as you arrive at the ball. After keeping practicing that, I only accidentally get that once every 10 matches or so.

Maybe that's it. I've been controlling the ball before the knock, and usually would knock, after the first touch, so the knock could come with the physical surge...but I'll try it, thanks for the recommendation.

To be honest, just holding down sprint on a breakaway or a footrace seems to be enough for me, since I can control the ball the full time...I tend to use quick stop often. I use the speed burst, when running off the ball for vertical runs for tap ins or 1v1s with the keeper.

To be honest, again not to float my boat, but I haven't lost a match since I've bought the game, except the coach mode 1 that I decided to keep. I don't know how much easier I want to make it on myself, but maybe it will alleviate the frustration...

The games have been much much closer though and the blowouts are much more rare, I think I beat Bournemouth 6-1, but the games since the update are within 3 goals or less usually. I'm excited for the next update.

p.s. BTW Dunk do you know anything about them deleting certain free agents? There was a post in one of the OF threads, talking about lots of free agents being wiped from game in the update...

 

[Kazuki_Ito]

To be honest, again not to float my boat, but I haven't lost a match since I've bought the game, except the coach mode 1 that I decided to keep. I don't know how much easier I want to make it on myself, but maybe it will alleviate the frustration...

I like how you just casually drop this in there.:tongue:

I'm gonna call BS on this. I'm not saying it's impossible but with everything I have to go on I'm gonna choose not to believe it unless you're not playing on Superstar or you've not played too many matches.

I'm not jealous, ultra competitive etc. etc. I just don't think you've done this. I've read and taken on everything you said before but in my experience of playing this game if you play more than 30-40 matches on Superstar in ML you're gonna encounter one where it's basically impossible to not lose.

It's very possible you're much better at the game than I am but in the matches I lose and even in some I don't the CPU will score goals that are very nearly impossible to defend against. For example they'll win the break of the ball around the half way line and slide a pass into a striker on the edge of my box and almost immediately without being able to get a defender close he'll hit an unsaveable shot into the bottom corner. There are numerous other ways they can score goals I am defenseless against - headers from corners where my defenders just duck their headers is another. These are not just pieces of poor defending by me or lapses of concentration - I basically know exactly what is coming but am powerless to stop it.

I'd genuinely love to see someone play that is that good at the game that they are invincible on superstar difficulty. I'd really love to know what it is I'm missing/not doing. This is not me being facetious - I would actually like to see it.

If I was a little more pragmatic I might be able to get marginally better results but at the end of the day it's a football game and if there's the chance of me rolling the dice to score a brilliant goal then I'll go for it even if it might actually reduce my chances of winning the match by getting players caught out of position.

 

[valencia5]

I like how you just casually drop this in there.:tongue:

I'm gonna call BS on this. I'm not saying it's impossible but with everything I have to go on I'm gonna choose not to believe it unless you're not playing on Superstar or you've not played too many matches.

I'm not jealous, ultra competitive etc. etc. I just don't think you've done this. I've read and taken on everything you said before but in my experience of playing this game if you play more than 30-40 matches on Superstar in ML you're gonna encounter one where it's basically impossible to not lose.

It's very possible you're much better at the game than I am but in the matches I lose and even in some I don't the CPU will score goals that are very nearly impossible to defend against. For example they'll win the break of the ball around the half way line and slide a pass into a striker on the edge of my box and almost immediately without being able to get a defender close he'll hit an unsaveable shot into the bottom corner. There are numerous other ways they can score goals I am defenseless against - headers from corners where my defenders just duck their headers is another. These are not just pieces of poor defending by me or lapses of concentration - I basically know exactly what is coming but am powerless to stop it.

I'd genuinely love to see someone play that is that good at the game that they are invincible on superstar difficulty. I'd really love to know what it is I'm missing/not doing. This is not me being facetious - I would actually like to see it.

If I was a little more pragmatic I might be able to get marginally better results but at the end of the day it's a football game and if there's the chance of me rolling the dice to score a brilliant goal then I'll go for it even if it might actually reduce my chances of winning the match by getting players caught out of position.

You can believe whatever you want. Don't take it as an insult, but you know the saying, "You can't teach a dog math no matter what you do?" I think simply because of your experience, intelligence, not saying it's either...but whatever it is, you can't comprehend it...

I know there's things I don't understand sometimes that I find hard to believe...but it's whatever...

There is nothing to gain here by lying and making shit up...absolutely nothing at all. What I do gain here by being truthful, is insight from other users...

The way you come off, as if you know, truly makes you sound stupid...for the sole reason...you deny what you can't understand, rather than asking more intelligent questions....sorry bro, but I'm speaking my mind same as you...

You really do seem ignorant, like early humans who didn't understand lightning, so they believed it was Thor smashing his hammer...

Maybe someone ignorant like yourself may have a reason to make shit up on the internet, because of what you lack in life, but really any normal person, realizes there's nothing to gain here by lying about insanely stupid useless shit...what would it get anyone? A little internet props, skepticism, and a one ignorant weak minded hater from Japan maybe...

Sorry I'd rather be truthful and get some real insight, and see if people are experiencing the same things...

I don't feel I should need to do this, but I will, I'll break my entire gaming experience down, and see if a dog can comprehend math...

This is my 2nd season in EPL using Fulham, promoted last season...with a 28-1-1 record in EPL, 41-1-1 overall.the sole loss on my record coming from a Coach Mode game against Leicester at 1-0, and a 1-1 draw to Chelsea which I thought would make it more realistic...I did actually play the Chelsea game.

Here's a photo of my first season results in Championship, I could not find something that showed my exact record, which was something like 38-9-1 if I remember with a loss coming to Crystal Palace in a simulation that I kept, also won the FA Cup...and Community Shield next season.

Here's my league table, and Europa League group table from this season...pay attention to the goals scored and conceded...

So truthfully, though the ignorant or weak minded may not be able to see it...I've been on here trying to have honest, dialog...and have shared my experiences to the best of my memory.....

Or I could have either played all this shit on the easiest levels, playing all those games and wasting my time, just because I like dominating, and lied about it all, or maybe I even photo shopped that shit because it's worth so much....

Regardless of what reason you believe someone to BS about, I've been saying over and over in all my threads, I don't believe myself to be that amazing of a player that this should be possible...I would believe myself to be a solid gamer, and a little better than the average PES player, but not to a point I should have this type of success...which is why, I've been posting about these topics for some time now...
You sir are an a child or an imbecile, with no ability to possibly comprehend, that there might be somethings with your given limitations that you may not understand, and are probably compensating for a small penis, sorry...

p.s. I really thought after our conversation in the other thread, you were going to be done making rude, ignorant, incorrect, assumptions...that make you look mentally challenged, and offend others....guess you can't change someone's true nature.

Let's use your style of sarcasm. What I like is, you displaying, passive aggressiveness, no point sarcasm, unfounded assumptions lacking any logical basis, lack of intelligence, lack of understanding, narcissism where you fail to realize that your personal limitations might affect your perception. Everything, except for lack of intelligence, which you were probably born with so I can't fault you for that, are all attributes of a weak mind, and weak character, alongside some self esteem issues...

You should maybe change it up, for some self enrichment, all the characteristics you've displayed will hurt you socially in life, and in fact I pity you for it, because it sucks to be that way. Here's to hoping for that. Sincerely, and best wishes.

 

[valencia5]

On a more normal note, for the other readers of this thread. I think me being unable to lose is based on my overall team recruitment strategy, as well as, my tactics/formation/advanced tactics, coupled with the overpowered individual defensive mechanics....it makes it impossible for the CPU AI to score, even on Superstar.....not an exploit either because I don't know any for one, and secondly, that would get old and not fun very fast.

What playing on Superstar does for me though, is actually make me work for my goals....while on Top Player I can score at will....but defensively no matter what level I put it on, it's very rare, but very welcome for the CPU to actually score against me...

Not saying this to brag at all, seriously, just sharing my experiences and thoughts, hoping to get insight.

P.S. Another thing might be training...I focus on speed first and foremost...for everyone....

I prioritize in this order:
Forwards : Speed -> Stamina -> Short Pass
Wingers: Speed -> Stamina -> Short Pass
Midfielders: Speed -> Ball Win -> Defense -> Short Pass
Fullbacks: Speed -> Ball Win - Defense -> Lofted Pass -> Short Pass
Centerbacks: Speed -> Defense -> Ball Win -> Physical Contact -> Short Pass -> Lofted Pass

I do not focus on dribbling, shooting, attack at all....I usually train wingers and forwards as dummy runners or hole players mostly. Midfielders as Box to Box, Creative Playmaker, and 1 Number 10. Defenders always Anchor Man, Build up, with a few Defensive FB.

I cater to the stats that need work, if they already have a high stat, I'll try to put three arrows on the weaker stats..

For example Alex Sandro from Juventus, started with great speed and ball skills, but lacked in defense...instead of training him as a fullback, I trained him as "Build Up" to increase his defending ASAP. Muhamed Salah trained as a dummy runner to increase his Stamina, and passing from the wings.

For skill training I usually always choose something that will help the team more than the indivdual...so never individual ball trick skills, if you can choose heading, track back, marking, captaincy, fighting spirit, one touch pass, one touch shot, etc....

 

[Kazuki_Ito]

When did you start playing PES games?

 

[valencia5]

When did you start playing PES games?

In July of this year. I played one game of PES 15 at a friends house against another friend. But I always liked FIFA...bought FIFA 16 in May or June of this year, and when I got sick of all the flaws, I downloaded PES 16 for the PC...after I installed smoke patch I was hooked, but hated playing it, because of all the input lag, so I just coach moded all my games, and liked the management aspect.

So I learned how all the management and strategy work...as far as playing, like seriously on the pitch, I learned on the fly with this game, I bought it on release day, but didn't even play really for almost exactly 1 month, because I was waiting for a complete OF, and working on some OF edit packs myself.

 

[Muzak0ne]

Thanks for the replies on this.. haven't had much time to reply with work but i will continue to add various ramblings


"The reason I say that is, because that's how infinite it is in life, the programming is absolutely finite...and I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that adjusting the AI logic, is a matter of small percentages over a long period of time....and the slightest change can have huge implications over a period of time with all the things happening....and cannot in nature, match the chaos and randomness of life."


That pretty well sums up how i perceive it to be as well

The processing power just isn't there yet to create the perfect (or even close to perfect) AI


How can you create an AI to concede possession to the well oiled gegen-press akin to the mighty Liverpool in full flow

but yet.. not allow the gegen-press to concede possession too frequently?

If we do it once we can replicate it right?

Anyways.. it is what it is. the topic of why the game is programmed the way it is - is waay above my understanding. and most certainly beyond my control




So a quick point on another area, one i'm sure may be a lot easier to resolve.
Shooting is OK. not amazing. to me it's around 6.5/10

Longshots are baaad.. too hard to score. plain and simple. not good enough

FIFA did them a lot better certainly in past years, haven't played it this year but their shooting especially longshots felt a lot better

I use advanced shooting and i really don't wanna have to use manual

There is a ridiculous amount of shots that go JUST WIDE.

or hit the woodwork. what's that about like?

 

[valencia5]

Thanks for the replies on this.. haven't had much time to reply with work but i will continue to add various ramblings


"The reason I say that is, because that's how infinite it is in life, the programming is absolutely finite...and I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that adjusting the AI logic, is a matter of small percentages over a long period of time....and the slightest change can have huge implications over a period of time with all the things happening....and cannot in nature, match the chaos and randomness of life."


That pretty well sums up how i perceive it to be as well

The processing power just isn't there yet to create the perfect (or even close to perfect) AI


How can you create an AI to concede possession to the well oiled gegen-press akin to the mighty Liverpool in full flow

but yet.. not allow the gegen-press to concede possession too frequently?

If we do it once we can replicate it right?

Anyways.. it is what it is. the topic of why the game is programmed the way it is - is waay above my understanding. and most certainly beyond my control




So a quick point on another area, one i'm sure may be a lot easier to resolve.
Shooting is OK. not amazing. to me it's around 6.5/10

Longshots are baaad.. too hard to score. plain and simple. not good enough

FIFA did them a lot better certainly in past years, haven't played it this year but their shooting especially longshots felt a lot better

I use advanced shooting and i really don't wanna have to use manual

There is a ridiculous amount of shots that go JUST WIDE.

or hit the woodwork. what's that about like?

Agreed. Shooting is, you're right on, a 6.5 lol. There are way too many shots JUST wide...especially from right in front of the goal inside the box....not as many over the top of the bar, as there should be an equal amount of those....there should also be shanks and really bad misses, but there's barely any.

The "miss" variety is definitely not there, and long shots on manual are pretty tough...I guess they are in auto shooting as well....what is just a tad, but not too much, too easy are curlers....I hit those very frequently from the outside sides/corners of the box....

But hitting a screamer outside the box into the corner is much much tougher, because chances are the defenders in the box will block it, and the physics of the game dictate regardless of how hard you hit the ball, the ball will lose too much pace traveling in the air, enough for the goalkeeper to comfortably catch it....and if you try to hit it even harder...it will fly over the bar. The curlers, again do work though...

This kind of shot is very far, but I don't think would be very possible in the game....it's an extreme example but, check the pace of the ball....not likely in game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8-Aj4tkElA

 

[Muzak0ne]

Yeah it's pretty tough to score those types of goals in the game isn't it

Even more rare i would suggest are longshots that stay the same side of the goal, like that Ronaldo one went from right to left. If you shoot and aim towards the same side you have even less chance to score, not sure i've seen one go in yet

It seems like it's very hard to wind up a longshot and also keep it low without taking too much power off the ball, it's almost like the backspin is too easily put on which hits it into the ground and takes steam out of it

I have convinced myself for long enough that i just haven't mastered it yet, but if i haven't mastered them yet and i play a LOT of games then.. it's far too inconsistent for the vast majority of players to pull off with any sort of regularity


So yeah.. shooting could really do with some tweaking for next year IMO

Maybe others disagree on this? be interested to know


How many times have we all hit a rocket volley only for it to go JUST wide (lol) or hit the bar and bounce over and you think shit that WOULD have been some goal.

 

[Apocalypse1]

First...my name is Bent and I'm new to this forum and playing pes17 for couple of weeks now on 360. Played 15 before and way back I played 6 as well. Last fifa I really played was....2003 I believe. And tried 15 but that was just horror.

Anyway. Valencia thanks for your posts. Great to read.

What my biggest frustration is so far, specially in ML (my club is going okay), is the way I loose. I started ML with Ajax and her original players. First 3 matches were fine. Then a very bad series with lostst of 3 0 and 3 1 against (real life) very average teams. I was just outrunned on every part of the field. My stamina was gone after 1 half (and I did not even sprint all the time). Theirs as well but they just keep on going.

I did win and drew in CL against Dortmund and won against benfica. 2Nd place in the group. So that's ok. But the league is now 14th place I believe. And no sight on improvement.

Played a game and after 45 minutes it was 0-4 with 3 yellow and 1 red for me. While they got 2 yellow with very hard tackles. I HAVE to sprint as otherwise I cannot get to their backline to cross.

Gets me pissed of more and more. And at first I was blown away with the game. The feel of passing the ball and scoring, specially how pressing a button resulted in the shot/action I intended was awesome. But this good feeling gets less and less.

So hopefully you or other people have tips for me. I play at..pro level if I'm correct. Cannot even thin about playing higher level when loosing so big already on pro...