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This is so ridicolus...

Rat Monkey

Registered User
[MENTION=203227]Rat Monkey[/MENTION] - the fact that Konami have admitted to the existence of scripting in the past, is enough evidence for me.

Ok. Where is the article so I can read it. I'd like to read what is the nature of this scripting as they describe it.
 

Ali

It is happening again
Ok. Where is the article so I can read it. I'd like to read what is the nature of this scripting as they describe it.

Unfortunately (and you'll to just have to trust me on this), it was from a PES article in the Official Playstation Magazine, back in the PS2 days. The term "momentum shift" has been used, which is just a bullshitty way of putting it.

The incident in the OP seems like a freak occurrence, but tell me - do you never just feel sometimes that the CPU team is destined to score? Like when they've been shit all game, and they suddenly burst into God mode? Or when your defender inexplicably slows down when you're chasing the striker? Or how about when your right footed striker goes through on goal, with a good opportunity to score with his right food, and then for some reason decides the kick a hopeless awkward effort with his left? Something that a striker would NEVER to in real life. Call them bugs all you like, but as far as I'm concerned, they're examples of the game taking control and fucking up your game.
 

fatehasfans

Registered User
Unfortunately (and you'll to just have to trust me on this), it was from a PES article in the Official Playstation Magazine, back in the PS2 days. The term "momentum shift" has been used, which is just a bullshitty way of putting it.

The incident in the OP seems like a freak occurrence, but tell me - do you never just feel sometimes that the CPU team is destined to score? Like when they've been shit all game, and they suddenly burst into God mode? Or when your defender inexplicably slows down when you're chasing the striker? Or how about when your right footed striker goes through on goal, with a good opportunity to score with his right food, and then for some reason decides the kick a hopeless awkward effort with his left? Something that a striker would NEVER to in real life. Call them bugs all you like, but as far as I'm concerned, they're examples of the game taking control and fucking up your game.

I really don't understand why they just don't take it (scripting) completely out and let true skill take over, isn't that what most fans want?

I can understand when it's used in an Arcade game, for example the rubber-band physics (scripting) used in Ridge Racer (where whoever went into 1st position would see their car slow-down and the other cars gain an internal speed boost to keep things competitive) when the intention is to suck away your money but when it's still being used as the main form of competitive-gameplay-interaction it just wreaks of lazy programming.

It's the same lazy scripting they use again and again and this time the AI control levels have reached new heights, this is why when I play and my team is doing well I'm always thinking "right at what point are they gonna start playing like turds?"

All in all it just adds up to a big mess of inconsistency and it's Konami's main way to keep the game balanced in terms of being competitive. However, it's really killing the game. No one plays the online PC mode (already) and who can blame them when the game is so messed up? In fact if you don't see scripting then WOW, if you don't see the 'turn' of momentum or know when the computer is going to score then again WOW because in all fairness I would love to be able to not see it too, sadly I can see it as it is simply too blatant to ignore and although I love bits of 15 it is killing the game for me, already I can take or leave it and normally I would be reluctant to make the change to the next series. Hence why I am worried where the game is going.

Thing is, I feel that Konami are aiming the game for younger players, young and pre-teens for when I had my son and his friend play a game they just loved it (although my son kept asking why the cursor wouldn't change in his own words, bless him but the other kid hasn't a clue). The game ended up 2-2 and they thought the whole experience was good fun.

So it makes sense to do this if your age demographic is a lot younger as kids tend to question a lot less AND it keeps the game's competitive for them - hence they will come back to sort out that 2-2 result (ending no doubt in another 2-2 :/)

Anyways, just my personal thoughts - us oldies being phased out.
 

rebelinho

Moderator
I don't know what game you lads are playing, but I almost never faced such "things" (the name is completely non-important ffs) in my almost 500 games. That [MENTION=227804]EthanLionel[/MENTION] video... I've never seen that happen to me. [MENTION=227658]fatehasfans[/MENTION] video... the same, I've yet to conceed/score a goal where the GK just forgot how to GK.

Scripting exists, just look at those winger runs. But I don't believe they deliberately coded the game into it making completely illogical decisions (like those in the vids) to favour one or the other team. I don't want to believe that.
 

Rat Monkey

Registered User
Unfortunately (and you'll to just have to trust me on this), it was from a PES article in the Official Playstation Magazine, back in the PS2 days. The term "momentum shift" has been used, which is just a bullshitty way of putting it.

The incident in the OP seems like a freak occurrence, but tell me - do you never just feel sometimes that the CPU team is destined to score? Like when they've been shit all game, and they suddenly burst into God mode? Or when your defender inexplicably slows down when you're chasing the striker? Or how about when your right footed striker goes through on goal, with a good opportunity to score with his right food, and then for some reason decides the kick a hopeless awkward effort with his left? Something that a striker would NEVER to in real life. Call them bugs all you like, but as far as I'm concerned, they're examples of the game taking control and fucking up your game.

I've no doubt in my mind there is momentum and the AI goes into God mode. Its blatantly obvious. It happens quite abit on Superstar. One in particular was QPR, the goal they scored was ridiculous. All the team was dribbling like messi on steroids. Absolutely no chance of stopping them. They reacted to my moves instantly like they were predicting it, except it was the computer reacting like a computer, which is bullshit because no human can compete with that. I had just beaten Chelsea and City, I wouldn't say comfortably, but I was in control of what the AI was throwing at me. Then QPR come along next match and go absolutely nuts.

Momentum is a different thing to what ye're on about though. Momentum is the AI becoming smarter or more stupid with stats being raised and lowered also. Ye're specifically on about your input being deliberately sabotaged. Yes, controls can be unresponsive. But, I see shit programming, ye see scripting. I've never noticed my players slowing down, except for stamina reasons or when you try to trigger a run with a tired player(that one being a bug as far as I'm concerned). But have noticed the AI on superstar especially being faster than my players. When I check the stats and form level they shouldn't be. Thats the momentum crap and also used to introduce difficulty in the only way they can with the AI, which is lame and just essentially a cheat. For shooting, the AI has to decide which angle your running at to decide which foot to use. I can see it completely fuckin that up without it meaning to be scripted. A striker in real life can't be compared to a limited AI. The AI has just a few lines of code to decide what angle your at in order to decide which foot to use. The AI is stupid.

Anyway, for everything one side says as an explanation, the other can come up with one. None can be proven.
 

Rat Monkey

Registered User
I don't know what game you lads are playing, but I almost never faced such "things" (the name is completely non-important ffs) in my almost 500 games. That [MENTION=227804]EthanLionel[/MENTION] video... I've never seen that happen to me. [MENTION=227658]fatehasfans[/MENTION] video... the same, I've yet to conceed/score a goal where the GK just forgot how to GK.

I agree. These things are anomalies. That video is a freakish one off event. Also, its fucking retarded. That is scripting? Its not in the slightest bit subtle if so, and an embarrassing retarded attempt at it, which leads me to believe it couldn't. The AI is just figity and confused, it completely looks like the code is just fuckin up, as far as I'm concerned.

Scripting exists, just look at those winger runs.

Do you mean the wingers being faster?

But I don't believe they deliberately coded the game into it making completely illogical decisions (like those in the vids) to favour one or the other team. I don't want to believe that.

Its too hard for me to believe that is an attempt also. I mean what a fuckin retarded attempt if it is.:laugh:
 

rebelinho

Moderator
Do you mean the wingers being faster?

No, I mean those runs they make, parallel to the goal line, when a normal human being would cross. In any other part of the pitch you can dispossess them, but when they are inside the penalty are, running like that.. they'll dance and flick and feint and run straight at you, and most times you can't stop it.
 

EthanLionel

Registered User
^ I don't know men! But they are so predictable when they do that, You can easily dispossess them inside the penalty.
 

Rat Monkey

Registered User
No, I mean those runs they make, parallel to the goal line, when a normal human being would cross. In any other part of the pitch you can dispossess them, but when they are inside the penalty are, running like that.. they'll dance and flick and feint and run straight at you, and most times you can't stop it.

Well yeah, the AI is programmed to go nuts and unrealistically so in order to make it difficult for you because Konami don't have any other way of introducing difficulty. Its not scripted in the definition the others mean by sabotaging your controls. It is hard to stop, especially on superstar, but its not black and white either. The controls for tackling are shown up for serious flaws here. The auto tackle when pressuring, i.e. holding the button, is dreadful at timing or even making a tackle. The manual tackle on the other hand has a lag in it due to the fact you have to press the button twice. As a result, the AI is reacting like a computer twisting and turning and you can't manually tackle the exact instant you want which makes it more difficult again. A double whammy, the computer has computer reactions which a human doesn't and you don't have your full reaction speed because you have to press the bloody button twice. At which point you mistime tackles. A combination of very poor design.
 

EthanLionel

Registered User
Thing is, I feel that Konami are aiming the game for younger players, young and pre-teens for when I had my son and his friend play a game they just loved it (although my son kept asking why the cursor wouldn't change in his own words, bless him but the other kid hasn't a clue). The game ended up 2-2 and they thought the whole experience was good fun.

Maybe they love it because they are playing on lower difficulty and they are just running and scoring goals. My son is like that also. He is 10yo and is enjoying beating the helpless CPU 10-0 on beginner.:)

When you play in higher difficulty though and in low pass assist to manual, You actually need to learn it to enjoy and play with flair.

Too many times I will lob a ball into the box and my forward will either never run to it, or in some cases specifically avoid it. This is so the CPU keeper or defender can get to it over me

I am hitting super cancel trying to break my player out of the haze he is in but no result. When I watched the original post video I see almost exactly the same behavior I mention above. I can be right alongside the ball but some invisible force field is stopping me from getting to it.

Are you using assisted runs(L1 + R stick) and using lofted through pass instead of normal lofted pass?
Using normal lofted pass isn't effective. Lofted though pass works very well but you have to be very precise with the direction and power. Something like the video below.
[youtube]sQn_c60Z5JQ[/youtube]
 

Ali

It is happening again
[MENTION=227658]fatehasfans[/MENTION] - you ask why they can't just take scripting out? It's because the opposition AI is so bad, you'd literally win every game 10-0. That's why it's in there. [MENTION=203227]Rat Monkey[/MENTION] mentions "shit programming". To that I say, yes, the programming is shit, and that's why the scripting is there.
Put it this way, I don't think we'll ever get the point for the AI is good enough so that the opposition plays like a proper football team, that's why this scripting is there. Some times it's obvious, others it's subtle, but it IS there. Same with Fifa. In the old PES games it was so bad that I could tell when a goal would be scored against me, 20/30s before it would be.
A way to think about it is as a balancing act.
 

rebelinho

Moderator
 

fatehasfans

Registered User
[MENTION=227658]fatehasfans[/MENTION] - you ask why they can't just take scripting out? It's because the opposition AI is so bad, you'd literally win every game 10-0. That's why it's in there. [MENTION=203227]Rat Monkey[/MENTION] mentions "shit programming". To that I say, yes, the programming is shit, and that's why the scripting is there.
Put it this way, I don't think we'll ever get the point for the AI is good enough so that the opposition plays like a proper football team, that's why this scripting is there. Some times it's obvious, others it's subtle, but it IS there. Same with Fifa. In the old PES games it was so bad that I could tell when a goal would be scored against me, 20/30s before it would be.
A way to think about it is as a balancing act.

Yes I know the scripting is a part of lazy programming, that's my point - they could take it out and make the computer play well and skilfully WITHOUT having to constantly bend the rules or tamper with your controls (albeit momentarily) - in terms of movement on the PC it seems I am always fighting with my players to ensure they don't over-extend, which they seem hell bent on doing, at times when I want to run in a straight line or stop at a certain point I often feel a slight magnetic-style force pull me slightly off course and its enough to allow the computer to track back on it's run and move away only for me to have to restart the whole process of interception again - as far as detection goes these little movement alterations are so expertly blended that they can be hard to detect but I know exactly what I wanted to do and know what the outcome should have been because there is a comparison i.e. when the computer doesn't alter your path and you win the ball. These micro-momentum shifts are what drive and ultimately dictate the gameplay (and subsequent outcome).

What I would like to see is this momentum criteria removed, I used to call it 'advantage' - so when playing with friends we could tell who had the advantage by the state of play - once you know what to look for it's quite easy to spot after that, this advantage play has only really taken over after PES 2008 before then it wasn't as obvious (but there were other forms of abuse back then) as I said I would like to see this removed and the difficulty of the computer increased not by increasing the momentum script in favour of the computer but by actual smart AI responses, the computer does not need to 'cheat' just look at games such as Tetris or Street Fighter - all things are equal and the computer cannot grant itself a position of favour or bend the rules so the coding can easily be done - AI interactive adaption is nothing new either and tbh this form of code could be used instead - whereby the computer reacts to your movements/habits by reading and incorporating your patterns of play and thus adapting to it - these things (mainly used to increase the interaction of players within MMOs) can easily be employed in a sports game.

The problem as I see it is that its cheap and cheerful to continue with the current format, my guess is that Konami simply don't have the funds (or feel the need to shell out funds) to improve the game in that area and so just stick to the same code they've used for the rest (albeit with some minor adjustments) after all why reinvent the wheel? It's been a winning formula thus far, why change? You could also argue that why should they put more money into something? I mean isn't the whole idea of a franchise to capitalize on an idea by churning out the same thing with only minor adjustments thus maximizing profits WITHOUT having to spend?

So as far as I can see, for the PC version at least, the future is looking bleak, although more and more people are complaining now about scripting so perhaps they will begin to think about an alternative form of improving gameplay interaction.
 

Rat Monkey

Registered User
[MENTION=203227]Rat Monkey[/MENTION] mentions "shit programming". To that I say, yes, the programming is shit, and that's why the scripting is there.
Put it this way, I don't think we'll ever get the point for the AI is good enough so that the opposition plays like a proper football team, that's why this scripting is there. Some times it's obvious, others it's subtle, but it IS there. Same with Fifa. In the old PES games it was so bad that I could tell when a goal would be scored against me, 20/30s before it would be.
A way to think about it is as a balancing act.

The main problem for me with calling videos like the OP's, the cursor change not working, or basically anything that affects your control is that they are not in the slightest subtle. They stick out like a sore thumb when they happen. As a result, if that is meant to be scripting, its such a fucking retarded attempt that so badly done and embarrassingly so by Konami, that in my mind couldn't possibly be intentional.

Things like momentum and AI going mental dribbling are more accurate forms of Konami attempting scripting, as far as I'm concerned. The AI maybe acting unrealistically, but its not behaving like a retard. The AI dribbling like messi on steroids is quite skillful programming and as a result obviously intentional. So thats another reason it doesn't add up to me that those other forms ye describe as scripting, especially that video, are intentional. To be able to go from such brilliantly programmed scripting(if unrealistic and bad design), to quite simply retardation, makes absolutely no logical sense to me.
 

V-Foot

Registered User
I don't know about being a bug or not, but that sure was stupid of the game.

Kinda beats me having defeated Barcelona with two own goals just about an hour ago.
 

MrClub

Registered User
Lots of scripting in 2015 but at least its playable..

I enjoy it when I tackle the AI 3 or 4 times in a row and it just magically finds its way to one of their wingers who goes on an unstoppable run, even If I manage to time a perfect tackle, its like the AI responds to MY button press and adjusts accordingly. In the end when I notice the shift occuring I Just block up as many holes as I can with player switching and watch the AI carry on its job.

Can be funny sometimes..

Anyone had those games where your players are constantly falling over and getting laid out from simple challenges?

Makes me laugh when the AI is on a WOOOSH moment (IE off to try to score a goal) and you get ample time to put in a foul (slide from behind) and then the button does NOT respond...
 

IronCity

Banned
my favorite is the cpu can try to poke its foot in to tackle you and the ball rockets out to a perfect pass to another cpu player.

drive me nutz to arrive at a free ball exactly the same time as the CPU and that CPU always delivers a pass out of that.
 
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