Athiest Professor

[laughin man]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.

I'd like to talk about this religious argument, I've seen it afew times now and I think it's interesting. The author claims Einstein was involved but he wasn't so although I'll add that part ignore it.

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
A student bravely replied yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes, sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does".

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young mans name --- Albert Einstein

[Ali_BWFC]

Surely evil is the absense of good, not the absense of God?

[Bammers05]

[Jonno394]

I've read this before, and it just sounds like a piece written by a pro-religious individual with the intent to make non-believing scientists look stupid.

The article falls apart when he exclaims evil is the absence of god.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

[Amateur]

Originally Posted by laughin man

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.

I'd like to talk about this religious argument, I've seen it afew times now and I think it's interesting. The author claims Einstein was involved but he wasn't so although I'll add that part ignore it.

A fairly interesting argument LM, but I do think that the student is not objective enough to be Albert Einstein, simply because a person who was as good with the cold numbers as Einstein was, would have realized the simple flaw to his argument, which is the fact that "evil" can be measured by statistics and therefore witnessed by sight, "darkness" can be seen and somewhat measured by the human eye, yet "God" cannot be seen nor measured, therefore it is in fact a very flawed argument to argue that because darkness can be defined as the absence of light, that evil should be defined as the absence of God; might as well define "religion" as the absence of common sense; might as well define "poverty" as the absence of Robin Hood; might as well define "civilization" as the absence of uncivilized people, but we know that's not true.

Furthermore, am I to presume that God created cold, darkness, and evil, just to fuck around? I mean, if "cold" and "darkness" are words that man has created in order to define the absence of God, why did God created absence in the first place? Isn't God omnipresent, and as such, there should be no absence of God?

It's similar to the Social Contract Argument.... For example, one of the greatest exponents of such an argument, Plato, who said: "some slaves are slaves by nature; others are free men. By the conditions of their souls some are inferior to others. This being so it is advantageous to both parties for this man to be a slave and that to be a master. It is good and just that some should be governed in the manner that nature intended." -- and I ask, if slaves are slaves "by nature", then what's the whole point of making a system designed to protect the oppressors from the oppressed?

If evil is the absence of God, then how come an omnipresent being is absent about 50% of the time? If slaves are slaves by nature, then why would you need a government to reinforce something that nature itself enforces? It's all bullshit, and it all falls within the same definition, a vehicle to define what human nature is within the confines of the social contract, a vehicle that defines the social contract not as a theory but as a fact to be followed and protected by the state, and thus a vehicle that refutes whatever human nature might've been before the mythical social contract, with a very simple answer: it's human nature.....

So that's my two cents on the religious student vs the atheist professor argument, they might have their differences when it comes to God, but when it comes to human nature, I bet that the atheist professor believes in the social contract and probably also thinks that Socialism is the future, and I bet that the religious student also believes in the social contract but couldn't give a fuck about politics. An offensive generalization? Perhaps.

[Michu]

It's circular logic. By its very definition you can argue anything. Scrub that, it's just plain pedantry.

Does air exist.

Yes of course.

Really, perhaps consider that it is just the absence of a vacuum?

The premise you can argue that something exists by comparing metaphysics to physics is plain silly. I heard a classic by a staunch Christian, it beggared belief, and it was this, The 'Air' versus 'God' equation. If we accept that air surrounds us and by virtue of it being invisible, it qualifies the presence of god because he too is invisible. Apparently.

So with this thinking we take one physically quantifiable element and compare it to a theoretical presence to make it credible. Idiocy.

I have no issue with spirituality but jog on with the metaphysics.

[Amateur]

I found a particularly stupid spin on the whole Christian Student vs Atheist Professor arguments....

Originally Posted by An anonymous Christian student

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. Because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just..," [Silence fills the room] "...the absence of it." [More silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.] "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.

"Explain...oh explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" [The teacher is temporarily speechless.] The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" [The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.] "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an ongoing endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is-that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" [The professor wisely keeps silent.] The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for.

I don't know how anyone can define immorality as the absence of morality, seeing how morality is a human invention. This particularly ignorant student is not making the mistake of that other student, he is not saying that evil is the absence of God because the absence of God would mean that God is not actually omnipresent: no, this dude goes all the fucking way, this dude says that God uses evil to teach you that...... it's human nature that some people will, out of their own free will, chose evil over good; so you see, God is merely using evil to make you see what a piece of shit you truly are, yet God himself is not evil, he just created evil -- makes sense.

So an all knowing being, wants to know if each one of us will chose good over evil, even though he already knows the outcome because he is all knowing? Yet he is not evil?

By that school of thought, morality does not even exists, morality is merely the presence of God's moral code, which makes immorality the absence of God's moral code, which means that even though God himself might be omnipresent, that his moral code certainly isn't omnipresent because God himself works where his moral code is absent: a crime of extreme severity, that God himself does not have neither the conviction nor the integrity to respect his own moral code, yet that he, an all knowing omnipresent being, expects us humans to do what he is incapable of doing.

When you look past God's legendary powers, there's very little difference between God and the US Congress, both have moral codes, neither one of them is capable of respecting their own moral code. This is not my actual opinion about God, I'm merely judging the God of an anonymous Christian.

[Ali_BWFC]

Originally Posted by Sminky

It's circular logic. By its very definition you can argue anything. Scrub that, it's just plain pedantry.

Does air exist.

Yes of course.

Really, perhaps consider that it is just the absence of a vacuum?

The premise you can argue that something exists by comparing metaphysics to physics is plain silly. I heard a classic by a staunch Christian, it beggared belief, and it was this, The 'Air' versus 'God' equation. If we accept that air surrounds us and by virtue of it being invisible, it qualifies the presence of god because he too is invisible. Apparently.

So with this thinking we take one physically quantifiable element and compare it to a theoretical presence to make it credible. Idiocy.

I have no issue with spirituality but jog on with the metaphysics.

No, because air does exist. It's a composition of several gases - Nitrogen, Oxygen, CO2 etc etc. Unlike darkness and cold for example, which are only descriptions for the degree of heat and light respectively. Looking back to LM's original post, the reasons given for darkness not existing because it's just an absense of light, is a load of bollocks. Dark/darkness are words we have given to describe an absense of light, therefore darkness does exist.

[Amateur]

Originally Posted by Ali_BWFC

No, because air does exist. It's a composition of several gases - Nitrogen, Oxygen, CO2 etc etc. Unlike darkness and cold for example, which are only descriptions for the degree of heat and light respectively. Looking back to LM's original post, the reasons given for darkness not existing because it's just an absense of light, is a load of bollocks. Dark/darkness are words we have given to describe an absense of light, therefore darkness does exist.

Pretty much agree, I have witnessed darkness and cold every day of my life, cannot say the same for God.

Furthermore, if a Christian defines "evil" as the absence of God, then he is also saying that God is not omnipresent, seeing how God must be absent for evil to take place; in fact, even if the argument is that "evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart", the claim is still invalid, because God cannot be absent from your heart, the same way nothing can really actually be absent from your heart, because such an expression is just figurative, and therefore cannot possibly be compared to crude realities such as darkness or cold.

At the end of the day, to argue that "darkness" does not exist, is similar to arguing that death doesn't exist, because death is the absence of life: an absurd argument.

EDIT

Has anyone ever done a study in order to come close to determining how many Christians actually read enough of the bible? I suspect most of the Christians who come up with these incredible arguments, have never read the bible, at least not nearly enough to understand why their arguments are actually a disservice to their religion.

[Michu]

Originally Posted by Ali_BWFC

No, because air does exist. It's a composition of several gases - Nitrogen, Oxygen, CO2 etc etc. Unlike darkness and cold for example, which are only descriptions for the degree of heat and light respectively. Looking back to LM's original post, the reasons given for darkness not existing because it's just an absense of light, is a load of bollocks. Dark/darkness are words we have given to describe an absense of light, therefore darkness does exist.

You misunderstood my post Ali, I was using that as an example of Christian metaphysics.

[Ali_BWFC]

Originally Posted by Amateur

Pretty much agree, I have witnessed darkness and cold every day of my life, cannot say the same for God.

Furthermore, if a Christian defines "evil" as the absence of God, then he is also saying that God is not omnipresent, seeing how God must be absent for evil to take place; in fact, even if the argument is that "evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart", the claim is still invalid, because God cannot be absent from your heart, the same way nothing can really actually be absent from your heart, because such an expression is just figurative, and therefore cannot possibly be compared to crude realities such as darkness or cold.

At the end of the day, to argue that "darkness" does not exist, is similar to arguing that death doesn't exist, because death is the absence of life: an absurd argument.

EDIT

Has anyone ever done a study in order to come close to determining how many Christians actually read enough of the bible? I suspect most of the Christians who come up with these incredible arguments, have never read the bible, at least not nearly enough to understand why their arguments are actually a disservice to their religion.

Well, smart Christians would know that the Bilble isn't to be taken completely literally, it's more of a guide.

Originally Posted by Sminky

You misunderstood my post Ali, I was using that as an example of Christian metaphysics.

Yeah, I realised that as I was writing it, but my argument still stands against these "darkness doesn't exist" type arguments.

[The Eristic]

My copy of Organon just burst into flame.