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Old 17-12-2011, 01:45   #61
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So you're saying Puyol's world class, while Messi is not world class, eh Sminky?
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Old 17-12-2011, 01:48   #62
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So you're saying Puyol's world class, while Messi is not world class, eh Sminky?
Worse than that, I just realised I missed Claude Makelele
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Old 17-12-2011, 01:57   #63
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So let's make a list of who've been truly world class, according to your definition. You listed:

Pele (Santos & Brazil)
Maradona (Napoli & Argentina)
Klinsmann (Inter & Germany)
Romario (Barcelona & Brazil)
Zinedine Zidane (Real Madrid & France)
Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique (Barcelona & Spain)

To which I would add:

Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern and West Germany)
Johann Cruyff (Ajax and Netherlands)
Ferenc Puskas (Real Madrid and Hungary)
Zico (Flamengo and Brazil)
Michel Platini (Juventus and France)
Ronaldo (Barcelona/Real Madrid and Brazil)
Franco Baresi (AC Milan and Italy)
Paulo Maldini (AC Milan and Italy)
Marco Van Basten (AC Milan and Netherlands)
Bobby Charlton (Man Utd and England)

Probably loads more - those are just off the top of my head.

Would you include George Best?
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Old 17-12-2011, 02:00   #64
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Indeed, easy one that. World Class all the way. Its semantics though in terms of what defines a world class player, is a world class player someone who dominates the game at both club and international level? If that's the case then Messi has yet to achieve that feat.
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So let's make a list of who've been truly world class, according to your definition. You listed:

Pele (Santos & Brazil)
Maradona (Napoli & Argentina)
Klinsmann (Inter & Germany)
Romario (Barcelona & Brazil)
Zinedine Zidane (Real Madrid & France)
Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique (Barcelona & Spain)

To which I would add:

Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern and West Germany)
Johann Cruyff (Ajax and Netherlands)
Ferenc Puskas (Real Madrid and Hungary)
Zico (Flamengo and Brazil)
Michel Platini (Juventus and France)
Ronaldo (Barcelona/Real Madrid and Brazil)
Franco Baresi (AC Milan and Italy)
Paulo Maldini (AC Milan and Italy)
Marco Van Basten (AC Milan and Netherlands)
Bobby Charlton (Man Utd and England)

Probably loads more - those are just off the top of my head.

Would you include George Best?
Ah but its not my definition George, it's a theory dear boy, as I said, semantics

No, George Best wouldn't make the list by that criteria either.
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Old 17-12-2011, 02:02   #65
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So does that mean, according to this theory, that those who play for weak National Teams are automatically less likely to be 'world class'? One player can only do so much, however good he is.
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Old 17-12-2011, 02:06   #66
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So does that mean, according to this theory, that those who play for weak National Teams are automatically less likely to be 'world class'? One player can only do so much, however good he is.
Indeed and thus presents the Messi paradox ... he can't carry the Argentina team.
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Old 17-12-2011, 02:58   #67
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What do you guys consider superior: World Class or Top Class?
Strange question
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Old 17-12-2011, 03:12   #68
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Old 17-12-2011, 06:06   #69
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Old 17-12-2011, 10:43   #70
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Old 19-12-2011, 00:38   #71
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Indeed and thus presents the Messi paradox ... he can't carry the Argentina team.
I would say he's been their best player in recent years. In Argentina's last qualifier away in Colombia, he was inspirational.

Anyway, I don't think Neymar will be coming to these shores...

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Old 19-12-2011, 00:45   #72
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From what I've seen and read from/of Argentina's international matches they have struggled to accomodate Messi in a truly effective role. Maradona played him off Higuain with limited success so played him on the right side of midfield again with limited success. Sergio Batista in his short tenure fancied aping the Barcelona system so went 4-3-3 and although the position suited Messi it didn't fit the rest of the team and their style of play.

The problem Messi has for Argentina is that he is not surrounded by the same great players as he is at Barcelona, the midfields are incomparable. I think in terms of what works for Argentina, a 4-4-2 diamond is probably their best system with a playmaker dictating play, ideally someone who can fluidly switch with Messi - which isn't Riquelme despite him being still a hugely influential player in Argentina ... although one who polarises opinion.
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Old 19-12-2011, 01:35   #73
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From what I've seen and read from/of Argentina's international matches they have struggled to accomodate Messi in a truly effective role. Maradona played him off Higuain with limited success so played him on the right side of midfield again with limited success. Sergio Batista in his short tenure fancied aping the Barcelona system so went 4-3-3 and although the position suited Messi it didn't fit the rest of the team and their style of play.

The problem Messi has for Argentina is that he is not surrounded by the same great players as he is at Barcelona, the midfields are incomparable. I think in terms of what works for Argentina, a 4-4-2 diamond is probably their best system with a playmaker dictating play, ideally someone who can fluidly switch with Messi - which isn't Riquelme despite him being still a hugely influential player in Argentina ... although one who polarises opinion.
From what I've seen he's done well as a playmaker, and as a forward playing on the right, after all, he played their for Barcelona in the treble winning season, with great success. Batista did try to replicate Barcelona's formation for Argentina during the Copa America, but it didn't work as Argentina didn't have the calibre of players, as Barca. Its difficult to judge him for Argentina, as they play much less than Barcelona, and quite a few of them are friendlies, so there aren't too many competitive games. In the last competitive international I saw him in, he was great, so hopefully Sabella has found a position for him.
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Old 20-12-2011, 16:38   #74
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Old 20-12-2011, 18:28   #75
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I think I might troll that forum to death.
Are you suggesting a second outing of the Pesgaming Spam Squadron?

If you are, Candidate Welles is up for it.
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