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View Poll Results: Does a player have the "right" to down with minimal contact?
Yes 2 15.38%
No 11 84.62%
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Old 19-01-2015, 10:48   #1
Ali
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The "Right to Go Down"

I haven't created an OT thread in a while, but I thought this would be an interesting discussion.

I had a rather heated debate in the chatbox sometime ago with another forum member. He believed that if a player is clipped/touched/tickled, he has the "right" to throw himself on the floor in order to get the foul. I disagreed. After Robbie Savage brought up this point on MOTD2 last night (saying that Aluko should've gone down when he was touched in the box), I thought I'd open the discussion to the rest of the forum.

Let's be honest, if your line of thinking matches up with that of Robbie Savage, then you need to take a long hard look at yourself. In MOTD2 last night, Savage (and also Trevor Sinclair) claimed that this was not cheating, but rather it was "sportsmanship" (I think they actually mean "gamesmanship") and it was all part of the game. Sinclair actually suggested that it's a skill..... a skill!! It's disgraceful in my book, and gives the sport a bad name.

Yes, refereeing needs to improve, not just in the sense of punishing players that fall over with the slightest contact, but also actually giving the foul if a player is impeded without the player having the throw himself to the ground to get the free kick. Let's look at yesterday's example again. Aluko was clipped in the box, but didn't go to ground and instead tried to carry on and score. That clip played a large part in him not scoring (along with his obvious lack of talent), so should it have been a penalty? Probably. But that doesn mean he has the "right" to throw himself to the floor to get the decision?

Anyway, enough waffling, I'll open up a poll. Just to be clear, this isn't about evading challenges to avoid injuries, this is about throwing yourself to the ground, effectively conning the ref into giving the free kick.
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Old 19-01-2015, 11:56   #2
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A interesting one, my heart says always stay on your feet & get the shot/pass away, but my head says the opposition will do go down in the same situation so you should. It just another one of the problems with the game these days
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Old 19-01-2015, 12:10   #3
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In regards to in the penalty area, if the contact is enough to put the attacker off to get a good shot away at goal, then yes he's entitled to highlight the disadvantage he's received from the defender for not doing his job properly. Minimal contact can still be enough to alter the attacker's body shape and chances of scoring.
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Old 19-01-2015, 12:25   #4
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No, for the same reason diving should not/cannot be dealt with retrospectively...it's too ambiguous. You may feel a player was caught enough to go down, whereas I may not (and visa versa).

I of course will claim my team's player has a right to go down and will bitch and moan when it goes against my team, as we all will.
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Old 19-01-2015, 12:36   #5
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You should do your utmost to stay on your feet at all times.
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Old 19-01-2015, 12:46   #6
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I think the conversation we had, Ali (I am the member in OP he is referring to) was the Robben incident vs Mexico, when one of the Mexican's slightly stepped on his foot, which I saw as impeding thus Robben had the right to go down.

People always talk about slight touches and it's not enough to bring you down, but if you were a pacey player then you know that the slightest touches can change everything, from shape, movement and balance, thus if that touch causes the chance to be gone, then in my book the attacker has a right to go down.
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Old 19-01-2015, 12:59   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bish View Post
to highlight the disadvantage he's received from the defender for not doing his job properly.
That's a roundabout way of putting it...

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Originally Posted by Ziss View Post
No, for the same reason diving should not/cannot be dealt with retrospectively...it's too ambiguous. You may feel a player was caught enough to go down, whereas I may not (and visa versa).
Of course. There are telltale signs though - exaggerated body movements etc, but the only person who will truly know if there was enough force, was the player falling to the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul2478 View Post
A interesting one, my heart says always stay on your feet & get the shot/pass away, but my head says the opposition will do go down in the same situation so you should. It just another one of the problems with the game these days
You know when you were young and you wanted to do something, and your mum said no, and then you'd say "But muuuuuuuum, Timmy's doing it", and then your mum would say "Well, if Timmy jumped off a cliff would you do that too?"?

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You should do your utmost to stay on your feet at all times.
Good man.

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Originally Posted by Joel View Post
I think the conversation we had, Ali (I am the member in OP he is referring to) was the Robben incident vs Mexico, when one of the Mexican's slightly stepped on his foot, which I saw as impeding thus Robben had the right to go down.

People always talk about slight touches and it's not enough to bring you down, but if you were a pacey player then you know that the slightest touches can change everything, from shape, movement and balance, thus if that touch causes the chance to be gone, then in my book the attacker has a right to go down.
Of course, if you're moving at pace, the amount of force needed to take you down is less than if you were moving slower, but I still don't think that gives you the right to go down. You should still make every effort to keep control of the ball, if there's enough force for you to lose control, surely the free kick would be given regardless of whether you go down?
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Old 19-01-2015, 13:14   #8
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Of course, if you're moving at pace, the amount of force needed to take you down is less than if you were moving slower, but I still don't think that gives you the right to go down. You should still make every effort to keep control of the ball, if there's enough force for you to lose control, surely the free kick would be given regardless of whether you go down?
100% the free kick should go down whether you go down or not, but it's not happening that's why players are choosing to go down.

I don't get why a player should have to try and stay on his feet to save an opposing defender who has more than likely put him off with a 'slight' kick or touch. Why do we look to punish the attacker for gaining an advantage (by going down when a foul has been committed), but praise him for staying on his feet and giving the defender an advantage for committing a foul?

There is absolute no benefit to staying on your feet except for people saying, "ah he is a good honest lad" which lasts for 3 seconds. You stay on your feet, the touch puts you off and you drag the shot wide, there's no foul called and then from the goal kick the opposition goes up and scores. Where is the benefit of this for a team?

Eden Hazard gets kicked around the pitch and has his shirt pulled when he dribbles along the line of the goal, but he doesn't go down and it annoys me because he is clearly being fouled and it is impeding him and killing our chance to score a goal. But oh, forget me, the foul and the scoreline, you're a good guy Eden for staying on your feet and gaining no benefit whatsoever for your team when the opposition is kicking lumps out of you.

Btw: I am not condoning real dives, i.e. going down where there is no contact whatsoever. And I am not condoning going down if someone touches you with their pinky finger. Only when the touch clearly shows that it has impeded the attacker.
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Old 19-01-2015, 13:20   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali View Post
You know when you were young and you wanted to do something, and your mum said no, and then you'd say "But muuuuuuuum, Timmy's doing it", and then your mum would say "Well, if Timmy jumped off a cliff would you do that too?"?
I get it, but refs are too inconsistent, I would rather see a player stay on his feet & do his best to get a shot away & if he misses & was impeded still get a Pen/FK. The problem is as soon as they take a shot it will rarely get pulled back for the foul which is why so many players go down at the slightest touch.
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Old 19-01-2015, 13:44   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel View Post
100% the free kick should go down whether you go down or not, but it's not happening that's why players are choosing to go down.
Do you think that if refs started giving free kicks, players will try to stay on their feet more? I doubt it.

Quote:
I don't get why a player should have to try and stay on his feet to save an opposing defender who has more than likely put him off with a 'slight' kick or touch. Why do we look to punish the attacker for gaining an advantage (by going down when a foul has been committed), but praise him for staying on his feet and giving the defender an advantage for committing a foul?
Because in this day and age, we like to see a player being honest. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Quote:
There is absolute no benefit to staying on your feet except for people saying, "ah he is a good honest lad" which lasts for 3 seconds. You stay on your feet, the touch puts you off and you drag the shot wide, there's no foul called and then from the goal kick the opposition goes up and scores. Where is the benefit of this for a team?
Well there's probably no short term benefit, but what about long term? If a player earns a reputation as someone who goes down to easily, this could go against him in future, when he actually IS taken out with enough force, but the ref doesn't give the foul.

Quote:
Eden Hazard gets kicked around the pitch and has his shirt pulled when he dribbles along the line of the goal, but he doesn't go down and it annoys me because he is clearly being fouled and it is impeding him and killing our chance to score a goal. But oh, forget me, the foul and the scoreline, you're a good guy Eden for staying on your feet and gaining no benefit whatsoever for your team when the opposition is kicking lumps out of you.
I can't see why it would annoy you. Hazard is obviously trying to do the best for his team, whilst trying to keep his integrity. From what little I've seen of Sanchez ( and I'm happy for anyone to tell me otherwise), he seems to be of a similar mindset. Do you not find it (to use a bit of a cliche) refreshing to see players trying to stay on their feet? Especially foreign players, who have more of a reputation for going down easily, compared to our honest English lads like Young and Gerrard.

Quote:
Btw: I am not condoning real dives, i.e. going down where there is no contact whatsoever. And I am not condoning going down if someone touches you with their pinky finger. Only when the touch clearly shows that it has impeded the attacker.
But where would you draw the line? You see pundits saying "he was touched, so has the right to go down".... TOUCHED for crying out loud.
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Old 19-01-2015, 14:08   #11
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Quote:
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Do you think that if refs started giving free kicks, players will try to stay on their feet more? I doubt it.
Not everyone, but I believe it would decrease a lot.

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Because in this day and age, we like to see a player being honest. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Well I don't see the honesty in a player being fouled but not getting the free kick he deserves.

Quote:
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Well there's probably no short term benefit, but what about long term? If a player earns a reputation as someone who goes down to easily, this could go against him in future, when he actually IS taken out with enough force, but the ref doesn't give the foul.
Well it shouldn't go against him at all, because the player is being fouled. People should look back and realise it was a foul and then there shouldn't be much else to say. It's the ones who dive under no contact who deserve that treatment.

Quote:
I can't see why it would annoy you. Hazard is obviously trying to do the best for his team, whilst trying to keep his integrity. From what little I've seen of Sanchez ( and I'm happy for anyone to tell me otherwise), he seems to be of a similar mindset. Do you not find it (to use a bit of a cliche) refreshing to see players trying to stay on their feet? Especially foreign players, who have more of a reputation for going down easily, compared to our honest English lads like Young and Gerrard.
It is annoying because he is not getting the foul from the referee because you need to be shot in England to win a free kick. It's not refreshing to see. It's refreshing to see that that he doesn't go down when there is no contact. It's annoying to see him struggle to stay on his feet when a foul is committed and the chance is gone because of said foul.

Quote:
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But where would you draw the line? You see pundits saying "he was touched, so has the right to go down".... TOUCHED for crying out loud.
You look at the player and see if the contact was enough to impede him. It's not hard to see the line.
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Old 19-01-2015, 14:11   #12
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I think most fans want to see justice more than player honesty. Officials just aren't good enough at their job, without help from video technology, for players to put their trust in them to get the decision they've earned, no matter how excessive the force might be in a challenge. The example Joel gave with Hazard shows that. He's being punished for staying on his feet and limiting his chances of scoring/helping the team. What's refreshing about defenders getting away with not defending properly or officials not doing their jobs properly?

This whole debate deflects attention away from the fact the defender is most often than not not playing within the rules.
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Old 19-01-2015, 14:15   #13
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I think most fans want to see justice more than player honesty. Officials just aren't good enough at their job, without help from video technology, for players to put their trust in them to get the decision they've earned, no matter how excessive the force might be in a challenge. The example Joel gave with Hazard shows that. He's being punished for staying on his feet and limiting his chances of scoring/helping the team. What's refreshing about defenders getting away with not defending properly or officials not doing their jobs properly?

This whole debate deflects attention away from the fact the defender is most often than not not playing within the rules.
Fantastic post. Defenders are getting away with murder. No one ever goes back and says, "he did well to stay on his feet, but why wasn't the defender punished?"
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Old 19-01-2015, 14:17   #14
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Just wanna add: cheating in order to make the referee award faults in legal plays is a skill. A bad one, but nevertheless a skill. Not every player can do it, and it takes practice to do it right.

I'm with ali regarding the "sportsmanship", or rather the lack of it, if this tactic. My friends generally consider me a "radical" due to saying that every attempt to fake injuries, faults and such things to be awarded a yellow card EVERY TIME, no matter the relevance or importance of the cheat, as well as other off the pitch penalties (read hefty fines). There should be no place for anything but true sportsmanship in sports, and in situations like that amazing save Suarez pulled off against Gana (correct me if I'm wrong) I wouldn't mind not seeing that player step foot on the grass again.


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I think most fans want to see justice more than player honesty. Officials just aren't good enough at their job, without help from video technology, for players to put their trust in them to get the decision they've earned, no matter how excessive the force might be in a challenge. The example Joel gave with Hazard shows that. He's being punished for staying on his feet and limiting his chances of scoring/helping the team. What's refreshing about defenders getting away with not defending properly or officials not doing their jobs properly?

This whole debate deflects attention away from the fact the defender is most often than not not playing within the rules.
This. I remember a video wher Nobby Stiles almost killed Eusebio's leg, and when the referee awarded the fault, Stiles made an action insinuating Eusebio dived. People knew he wasn't diving, and cheered the referee, because he did justice. But was it an honest tackle? It was a very bad one, probably done because Eusébio was unstoppable and Stiles knew that he had to do it for the sake of his team, but they would've kept on playing if the referee didn't stop the game. That doesn't make it less faulty, but what about honest?

In those times there were no video helps, but players knew the game was physical, and were prepared to get some bruises for doing their job right. What I'm saying is that now players and the game itself became a bit too soft, and it is getting softer. Faults should be given, but that doesn't mean the tackles shouldn't exist.
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Old 19-01-2015, 14:28   #15
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Well I don't see the honesty in a player being fouled but not getting the free kick he deserves.
Wut? I mean, I can somewhat agree with your other points but this stands out like a sore thumb. Whether a player is fouled or not, the act of intentionally throwing yourself to the ground, when the contact isn't strong enough to FORCE you, is dishonest. How can it be seen any other way? It's diving. Whether you're touched or not, it's diving.

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I think most fans want to see justice more than player honesty. Officials just aren't good enough at their job, without help from video technology, for players to put their trust in them to get the decision they've earned, no matter how excessive the force might be in a challenge. The example Joel gave with Hazard shows that. He's being punished for staying on his feet and limiting his chances of scoring/helping the team. What's refreshing about defenders getting away with not defending properly or officials not doing their jobs properly?

This whole debate deflects attention away from the fact the defender is most often than not not playing within the rules.
Re: Hazard - the thing is that he is good enough to make something out of the chances he creates while staying on his feet. A lot of the players that go to ground easily are also good enough. Look at Drogba for example. In his prime he was a force to be reckoned with, yet still felt the need to go down at the slightest touch. There's plenty of other examples around eg Robben as already mentioned, Ronaldo, Bale.
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