Define: Scripting

[InfiniteJest]

Given this word is dished out like candy on most posts regarding any new installment of PES, I'd like to know just what it is. Surely those discontent with PES 2012 (or any PES, for that matter) understand scripting and whatever alternatives there are. To me it seems like a form of governance or charter for games, and as it is true in most societies, governance is necessary. Are there any programmers (or authorities on the matter) who play PES and post on this site? I haven't the slightest clue about video game programming, and am wondering how necessary it is, and if PES 2012 could've been managed or programmed any other way. But in any event, I'm still enjoy the game.

 

[nbn]

amen, i hate you as much as you hate my team. if you dont play hatdcore defense or know how to get the ball into the net, then shit will happen. hard luck. unless you're arsene wenger's nephew, its regretable when you're match up with people who knows more soccer than you.

 

[abu97]

its when the cpu decide the outcome of the match- where every pass goes, every shot, the score line, corners. Nothing is random like a real football game, everything is rigged or fixed. This is why when you verse a team like Barca and you are a worse team like Arsenal and you are leading, the cpu decide this is wrong and they'll do anything to make them win and this includes undefendable through balls, stupid corners, wrong ref decisions, passes not going where they were meant to be for you, CPU going godlike intercepting every pass, you missing easy chances and much more. And whats worse is that they'll most likely leave it to the last few minutes so there'll be a harder to chance for you to get a goal. The only way to avoid this is when you are winning, play keepball but even that fails as CPU put godlike pressure so your passes go awkward

 

[Sweey]

Every single video game is scripted. It sort of gets on my nerves when people (LOTS of people!) dumb down the description to "the game is scripted". Well of course it is, how else will the computer understand it? I do get what people are trying to say, the terminology just annoys me.

Anyway, it is up to the programmers to give the AI enough scope to pick its behaviour from a variety of potential ones in a given situation.

The issue appears to be (and I've not played PES at length this year but understand the complaint in other games too) that there isn't enough variety in the solutions which are seemingly hard-coded into the AI. That or the AI isn't sophisticated enough to be given some boundaires and told to work as it pleases within them. Is it Konami's fault? Well yes and no.

Football is a fast, long series of different scenarios where the AI needs to stop itself being bogged down to the point where it isn't doing anything realistic because it is too busy trying to work out WHICH solution to execute. Konami could still improve the AI's variety of play on one hand but neither they nor EA (FIFA) do a fantastic job and you have to consider whether the PS3 and 360 processing units act as limitations in this respect.

Football games in general need better programming work on the AI side so that boundaries are set but a wider variety of potential outcomes are considered. That said, it could take time and effort which won't result in a sales spike so there's a cost v profit issue.

 

[MozzyEng]

I agree that Ps3 and Xbox systems could be limited in what can be done with regards to programming. One thing to consider though, Is that as next gen consoles are released, Smarter AI will be guaranteed. Which in turn could mean Even more problems!. Example= Your winning by using a certain tactic, And the AI have the ability to alter there tactics to rip you to pieces!. Us as humans wont get much better at pes, But the AI almost certainly will!. It's a fine line for the programmers between greatness and total disaster!

 

[abu97]

Every single video game is scripted. It sort of gets on my nerves when people (LOTS of people!) dumb down the description to "the game is scripted". Well of course it is, how else will the computer understand it? I do get what people are trying to say, the terminology just annoys me.

Anyway, it is up to the programmers to give the AI enough scope to pick its behaviour from a variety of potential ones in a given situation.

The issue appears to be (and I've not played PES at length this year but understand the complaint in other games too) that there isn't enough variety in the solutions which are seemingly hard-coded into the AI. That or the AI isn't sophisticated enough to be given some boundaires and told to work as it pleases within them. Is it Konami's fault? Well yes and no.

Football is a fast, long series of different scenarios where the AI needs to stop itself being bogged down to the point where it isn't doing anything realistic because it is too busy trying to work out WHICH solution to execute. Konami could still improve the AI's variety of play on one hand but neither they nor EA (FIFA) do a fantastic job and you have to consider whether the PS3 and 360 processing units act as limitations in this respect.

Football games in general need better programming work on the AI side so that boundaries are set but a wider variety of potential outcomes are considered. That said, it could take time and effort which won't result in a sales spike so there's a cost v profit issue.

You might think it is nearly impossible to remove all the scripts as technology hasn't evolved much but its a funny thing to say that as I don't remember the demo having any major scripts or superstar on patch 1.00. But in patch 1.03 it is a cheat fest so it can be done. Also one other example is Jenkey's patch which can remove cheats and make the game more fluid and free. I've tried it and it was heaven. Too bad it'll take KONAMI a whole console generation to delete the scripts eventhough it takes Jenkeys less than a whole week

 

[InfiniteJest]

amen, i hate you as much as you hate my team. if you dont play hatdcore defense or know how to get the ball into the net, then shit will happen. hard luck. unless you're arsene wenger's nephew, its regretable when you're match up with people who knows more soccer than you.

Was this directed at someone? If it was me, I've got no idea who you are. But if it's worth anything, I wish you all the simulated gaming success you crave.

 

[abu97]

amen, i hate you as much as you hate my team. if you dont play hatdcore defense or know how to get the ball into the net, then shit will happen. hard luck. unless you're arsene wenger's nephew, its regretable when you're match up with people who knows more soccer than you.

This is mainly offline, not online

 

[stingo]

Every single video game is scripted. It sort of gets on my nerves when people (LOTS of people!) dumb down the description to "the game is scripted". Well of course it is, how else will the computer understand it? I do get what people are trying to say, the terminology just annoys me.

Anyway, it is up to the programmers to give the AI enough scope to pick its behaviour from a variety of potential ones in a given situation.

The issue appears to be (and I've not played PES at length this year but understand the complaint in other games too) that there isn't enough variety in the solutions which are seemingly hard-coded into the AI. That or the AI isn't sophisticated enough to be given some boundaires and told to work as it pleases within them. Is it Konami's fault? Well yes and no.

Football is a fast, long series of different scenarios where the AI needs to stop itself being bogged down to the point where it isn't doing anything realistic because it is too busy trying to work out WHICH solution to execute. Konami could still improve the AI's variety of play on one hand but neither they nor EA (FIFA) do a fantastic job and you have to consider whether the PS3 and 360 processing units act as limitations in this respect.

Football games in general need better programming work on the AI side so that boundaries are set but a wider variety of potential outcomes are considered. That said, it could take time and effort which won't result in a sales spike so there's a cost v profit issue.

I can assure you this is absolutely NOT how things are programmed in a game! There are no scripts from which to choose from and that AI runs out of them is a fantasy. And the "number of outcomes" is truly infinite even if the game "feels" scripted.

It is actually programmed as a mathematical description of the real world and is a true simulation! However, because the physics and mechanics of the real world are rather complicated it can not be described perfectly. There are certain simplification and approximations made when simulating game dynamics. Because of these imperfections the game has to be tweaked to make it playable and very importantly to avoid exploits. Any soccer game is not only a game of skill but also includes a lot of luck factor and this aspect is also programmed in. In this view scripting is defined as not a predetermined outcome, but just as more likely event. You are never destined to lose a game in PES, but rather momentum and luck might be a little (or not little) biased in AI favor depending on the situation on the field. This is in a way realistic because in real football these mentality swings exist. PES possibly has a bit wacky model of momentum of this random bias which leads to the perception of the game being scripted. However, humans are also prone to draw patterns from random occurrences where these patterns do not exists. This can easily be mistaken as scripting. I am sure both of the factors contribute to the never ending topic of scripted games in modern soccer simulation games.

 

[abu97]

I can assure you this is absolutely NOT how things are programmed in a game! There are no scripts from which to choose from and that AI runs out of them is a fantasy. And the "number of outcomes" is truly infinite even if the game "feels" scripted.

It is actually programmed as a mathematical description of the real world and is a true simulation! However, because the physics and mechanics of the real world are rather complicated it can not be described perfectly. There are certain simplification and approximations made when simulating game dynamics. Because of these imperfections the game has to be tweaked to make it playable and very importantly to avoid exploits. Any soccer game is not only a game of skill but also includes a lot of luck factor and this aspect is also programmed in. In this view scripting is defined as not a predetermined outcome, but just as more likely event. You are never destined to lose a game in PES, but rather momentum and luck might be a little (or not little) biased in AI favor depending on the situation on the field. This is in a way realistic because in real football these mentality swings exist. PES possibly has a bit wacky model of momentum of this random bias which leads to the perception of the game being scripted. However, humans are also prone to draw patterns from random occurrences where these patterns do not exists. This can easily be mistaken as scripting. I am sure both of the factors contribute to the never ending topic of scripted games in modern soccer simulation games.

You can be destined to lose a game on PES unless you find away to foil the CPU's plans. But mostly, depending on if you are playing a better team, you are almost 99% destined to lose.

Here, I'll give you an example.
In my master league with the default players, I was versing a team 17th place in D2. I thought since it would be a must-win match, I went on 'view scores' to read the match. The CPU made me lose 3-1 so I thought I should play it myself so I restart it without saving, set up my formation and started to play(This was on top player). In th first 25 minutes, I scored a lob which was my 2nd shot on target. I had no more shots on target in the rest of the first half and it was the same for them. I go into the 2nd half leading 1-0 when just after kick-off, they pass it down the wings and deliver a low cross which my keeper skills and some unknown fake player scores the rebound. Very pissed off, I went straight into attack mode and passed it to the wing where it got intercepted. Then they suddenly do a paul scholes long ball from one side of the pitch to another and it lands into the feet of another fake player who controls it like messi and runs into finish with palmieri still dazed from what happened. 2-1 then I realised before the CPU made me lose 3-1 so I was thinking surely the inevitable couldn't happen. But it did. I ended up losing 3-1 which was the exact score my coach lost.

Pure script, with every match being rigged. Trust me, there is a given set of scores which will happen like imagine you were playing aston villa with barcelona. The given scores could be 5-0, 4-0, 3-1, 4-1, 3-2. You might be thinking this is impossible as you can score lots on own goals. But, the cpu dont' give you actual results, they give you actual ratios like 2-1, 4-2, 8-4. Its a long winded process but it could be true

 

[Sweey]

I can assure you this is absolutely NOT how things are programmed in a game! There are no scripts from which to choose from and that AI runs out of them is a fantasy. And the "number of outcomes" is truly infinite even if the game "feels" scripted.

It is actually programmed as a mathematical description of the real world and is a true simulation!

But mathematical calculations within an acceptable framework (which must be put in place to stop things getting out of hand) have a finite number of outcomes.

 

[muscularmatt]

Every single video game is scripted. It sort of gets on my nerves when people (LOTS of people!) dumb down the description to "the game is scripted". Well of course it is, how else will the computer understand it? I do get what people are trying to say, the terminology just annoys me.

This basically sums up my opinion. Anyone who uses the word "rigged" in this context is a total penis.

 

[Montanaro]

Scripting-Defined: When up 3-0 in MLO the opponent scores 4 straight goals in the last 15 minutes.

All of which coming from funky rebounds (that defy ball physics) and AI defenders running away from ball or refusing to clear it.

 

[InfiniteJest]

Scripting-Defined: When up 3-0 in MLO the opponent scores 4 straight goals in the last 15 minutes.

All of which coming from funky rebounds (that defy ball physics) and AI defenders running away from ball or refusing to clear it.

I believe this is an example of what one sees as scripting, and not a definition of it. But hey, maybe there's some greater plan (or good) the game has for you (kinda like a God or something).

 

[luik^3]

i sometimes have the feeling that the cpu/ai can anticipate to the buttons you press which can give them a huge advantage compared to us humans since we can only anticipate on the things we can observe (buttons are pressed before something actually happens, therefore the cpu has huge advantage)..

The definition of scripting has been quite clarified imo, but maybe we can describe this as 'implementation of unwanted/unrealistic intelligence'?

 

[InfiniteJest]

So what I'm getting is, is it seems scripting is necessary, and that it's a set of variables, functions or "events" (by way of mathematical concepts or determinants) within the construct of a game that can leave people miffed. So, what would a game be without these variables or events? Not a game? One poster (is that right?) mentioned there are hinderances as a result of a lack of technological know-how in delivering simulation. Huh.

But more importantly, how much do the consumers who purchase video games know about scripting? I'd think that to talk about game scripting, would require one to know about scripting, and not just its instances. I know **** all about game scripting, but I guess it's common sense to know things have to be determined in a game for it to be a game, and that's where my knowledge will end (unless I want to become a game designer, which I don't). I don't know, maybe I'm just confused now about the impetus for the cries about scripting, and it seems it's about the need for simulation, both from the developers who tout and market that their game is a simulation, and from those consumers who demand it.

 

[techboy11]

I agree with a few of the above comments. I never go too much into detail about scripting because I feel, like many have said, that the CPU MUST use something to actually make the game pan out.

Where people's frustrations lay is the seemingly impossible game to win, the one that is SO heavily rigged that it beggars belief. This used to happen a lot on PES 2011, where for example you would be wining say something like 2-0, 3-0, from the first leg in a specific cup, and the CPU would immediately generate ways of scoring like three headed corners in a row.

Likewise, yesterday for example I won two games in a row, one an easy 4-1 victory, and the seconde a close yet perfectly feasible 2-1. Then onto a cup game....which is where I start getting nervous. Played home as Liverpool v QPR, all my players on great form.

Went one nil up, then two nil up. Then the scripts started kicking in. It was as if the CPU had said right 'fuck this' this game is GOING to be a thriller. With their first shot of the game they hit a deflected goal. You know, one of those rubbish ones. They then had a corner which was headed in. Two all. I then went three two up with an incisive move that the CPU did it's best to stop, with two rebounds off the keeper before a tap in. During this section of play I missed two one on ones and hit the post.

They then scored an unbelievable goal in which I have saved if anyone is interested. They hit a long through ball (lofted) from a central position toward the corner of the 18 yard box. My defender who began to chase round and fetch it suddenly stops triggering some sort of auto trigger from Reina who starts to come out, but kind of goes at this weird angle. Needless to say the QPR man wins the chase. A collision ensues between the player and Reina in which the ball bobbles free outside the area, now Reina had enough time to run back into goals if he wanted as by now I had enough cover to at least slow the game down, but as the CPU pass the ball infield Reina goes charging towards the CPU guy outside the box about 20 yards away. Needless to say the CPU then hit a 15 yard slow shot into an empty net. I was like WTF.

Now you could say these things happen, you could say it's life and get on with it. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. Where my problem derives from is that THAT ONE GAME, that ONE FA CUP v QPR, was absolutely destined to be a high scoring loss thriller with all sorts of shit going down. I could feel it through the gamepad from early on in the game.

The problem people have is WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN, when people are having perfectly good games without scripting and weird shit happening anyway?!? I didn't win a game in three the other day, but did I complain? No! Why? Because they were perfectly realistic losses. A) I didn't play well enough in the three games and B) the CPU goals were perfectly varied yet feasible.

You can just feel it.

There was a Europa game I played last week, where the game was decided before a ball was kicked. This crappy team scored three of the most scripted screamers you'll ever see, included the old scripted lob into the box where my Carragher couldn't outmuscle some little striker twice and ended up shelling two cushion headed setup goals.

Now I'm no expert, but either the scripting or whatever was soo subtle in PES 5/6, or I was young and naive. It may be the latter.

 

[abu97]

KONAMI put scripting so we can go back and try playing it more. They think if their was no scripting, we could win a lot of matches and get bored of it and sell it. Thats why they probably put scripting in PES so they think we lose a lot of matches so we can go back and try to improve on it.

It sounds retarded but thats the way KONAMI's programming is

 

[Ali]

Ok, so I didn't really want to create a new thread for this, but just found a fairly appropriate one.

Played PES 2012 for the first time in over a month yesterday..... I stopped after 2 games!
First game (both online) went alright, I won 2-0.

2nd game.... my goodness! Fair enough, he was a decent player by all accounts. His first goal was an absolute fucking disgrace. He went through on goal after my defence literally stepped out of the way, shot, it took a touch off the keeper before it started trickling towards goal. I managed to get my player back in time to try and clear the ball. He does clear it..... but straight into the keepers face and the ball goes ballooning into the goal. Nice bit of scripting there.
I score straight after through some more nice scripting as his defence goes missing and my shot takes a deflection of the defenders leg, and goes straight into the corner.

Round about the 75th minute he scores again, through the aid of countless deflections. I'd almost had enough. I try to go on the attack, but every pass goes astray and my players are playing like a bunch of Sunday League 7th division players. I put the controller down in disgust just to kill off the last 5 mins. He gets a corner, plays it short, moves into the box..... my defender comes rushing out to tackle the player (bear in mind that I've put the controller down) and tackles the attacker fairly...... the referee gives a foul!!! The player didn't even fucking go down!!!

THERE is your definition of scripting.

How anyone can call this a good game is beyond me, it really is.

Christmas rant over. Have a lovely day folks!

 

[S1mon]

Completely agree with many of the previous posts the game is always finding ways of allowing your opponents to score ridiculous goals... I've decided to trade my copy in for PES2011, my last match involved a 5-0 loss with West Brom, at the hands of Newcastle... the mighty Peter Lovenkrands scoring 3 headers that I could do nothing to prevent.
Heading duels are one thing I've noticed to be atrocious on this game, when it's quite clear that the game 'decides' which player will win the header, no amount of Human effort can change it... even if you do by some miracle defy the scripting, your player just heads the ball straight up in the air or to the opposition.
As mentioned in a previous post, the prior-knowledge that the computer yields, as to which buttons you will press is heavily noticeable, especially when it constantly ghosts past you on mazy runs, or draws in free kicks: Slide in>computer turns>THEN the foul is given... ridiculous. Whilst such 'prior knowledge' if you will is noticeable on many football games, 2012 takes this to the extreme, in a way that I feel 2011... and PES5, going back a bit, don't.