PES 2012 News, Screenshots & Videos [Index In First Post]

[RAMAXWY]

I am a big fan of player individuality, which is why I was such a big fan of the PS2 versions of PES; I cannot see neither how nor why everything manual would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality.

I am 100% sure that more control over the game would only increase the player individuality.

Example: an average center forward would give a very OBVIOUS indication just before he runs from Point A to Point B, thus making it very easy for the defender to read the game. On the other hand, a world class center forward would not give any OBVIOUS indication about anything, therefore making it more difficult for the defender to read what the center forward will do.

Example: average midfielder CANNOT move in certain ways, average midfielder CANNOT move at certain times. On the other hand, Xavi Hernandez can move in an unlimited range of directions, Xavi Hernandez can move at any given time.

That is player individuality applied on the tactical end of the game; the same thing that determines technical attributes such as passing, dribbling, and shooting, can easily be applied on the tactical abilities of the players.

That level of depth does not exist neither in PES nor FIFA. So I could easily say that player individuality is shit in PES, simply because player individuality does not exists in terms of tactical ability.

What you are saying is something that I completely disagree with. So if Xavi Hernandez is an intelligent player, he should do intelligent things without my input?

Therefore, making it virtually impossible to, as a manager, make incorrect use of an intelligent player. Therefore completely undermining the tactical end of the game, completely undermining my footballing brain, since an intelligent player will always react intelligently because that's what the "team play" stat says.... I disagree with that.

If Lio Messi is a great dribbler, he should dribble past three defenders without my input? No. He should simply have more tools than the average player, but he shouldn't automatically dribble past three players regardless of how shit you are at playing the game.

Anyways. I completely disagree with you, I think your point is very negative and outrageously simplistic: "semi-automatic" is just another word for "scripted", and I think scripted gameplay is outdated. I think tactical stats and technical stats should determine the range of things that each player is capable of, however, I do not think stats should determine how I use the stats.

I respect your opinion, but your argument about "every player will be the same" does not make any sense to me.



That is impossible. You cannot decide what you want when everything you do is predetermined by a script that you have zero control of.

Statistics can and should decide how good the player is at moving without the ball; however, in a video game where the gamer is in control of the entire team, statistics SHOULD NOT decide *when* the statistics work, because doing such a thing, not only undermines the ability of the gamer, but it also undermines the player individuality.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect a fast player who can run past defenders; yet in PES11, regardless of the fact that statistically Samuel Eto'o is a very fast player, somehow, slow defenders such as Fabio Cannavaro can actually catch up with Samuel Eto'o after Samuel Eto'o ran past them. That sounds like the computer decides to undermine the stats.

When I sign Samuel Eto'o, I expect him to at least run when it is obvious that he should run; but that does not happen in PES11. In PES11 Samuel Eto'o becomes a dumb zombie *when* the computer decides that Samuel Eto'o should be a dumb zombie, regardless of the fact that the statistics say that Eto'o should be a tactical genius. That's what happens when the game gives it to you according to the team's stats.

What's the point of having Samuel Eto'o when the computer can decide that Eto'o will make the run a little too late this time or a little too early that other time, only to watch how the very same computer decides that an average center forward will move at the right time and will score a goal as a result.

That's how the computer makes it possible for an average team to attack once and score once, and for a world class team to attack countless of times with no end result. Because the computer decided that the world class team would have dumbed down center forwards, and the computer decided that the average team would have Romario as the center forward.

That's scripted gameplay. That's what happens in many occasions when you play PES11 and FIFA11. I think it is an outdated concept precisely because it CANNOT fundamentally improve, it can only improve in terms of visuals and in terms of gimmicks, but not fundamentally.

i don't think you read my earlier post or you just chose to ignore it but i won't sum it all up again, i'll just say this, a one two pass is basic so i love how that is being implemented in the game but giving a gamer that much control like you are talking about doesn't make the game a simulation anymore if you asked me.
the challenge is to find a formation or playing style that suits you and using the abilities of you players to get the most out of that formation.
so depending on all the stats of the day,fitness,mentality,the total teamwork depending on players that are on the field there will still be room for surprises,challenges but you won't be able to constantly force certain runs and will have to be on the look out for the players runs according to their abilities at that given time, on field situations and your selected formation.
at least that is my opinion on how a simulation should be implemented for a football game.
your great players should excel on their own by making intelligent runs depending on the situation and you should be on the look out for these runs especially when in control of a great passer but to constantly be able to force the issue doesn't sound too good to me and will make the game boring within weeks.
but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.
too give you an example: someone with a footballing brain that spots gaps in a defense easily would be able to take a team like Wigan and beat another gamer with a less defeloped footballing brain all day long even though that guy was controlling BARCELONA because he would be able to trigger runs that the real players of Wigan probably wouldn't dream of cause of their stats, formation or teamwork ratio.
the outcome of every game would be fully depending on the skills of the gamer and not on the selected team or players.
it would be the same like when you select a viper in a GT game and can beat the F1 all day just because you had the skill, because the selected vehicle didn't matter.

 

[Phat_Tok]

it has always in my opinion been better then FIFA so you can't see that as a standard to reach or to surpass.
KONAMI were the ones who set the footballgaming standards and with all the things missing in PES 2011 how the hell could they,the previewers and reviewers say the king was back.
every PES game has its problems but PES 2011 is by far the worst.
i still have every PES game i ever bought and believe me it is the worst i've come across and has received less playing time of them all.
saying the king is back a year ago and then mentioning all the problems i felt in my first ten games a year after:shocking::no: come on who are they kidding.
the only thing which you can say that has improved at KONAMI is their marketing skills, cause they are really doing it like FIFA nowadays, were when the final product is in your hands it is nowhere near that what they promised it would be.
the biggest problem is that the previewers that we would like to be on our side or helping them, but hey money talks so who could blame them.

Yep, 100% accurate. Ever since next gen consoles have been out Pro Evo has been a bag of shite. Ppl can argue about the pro's and cons of one against another but the day Pro Evo switched over to PS3 it lost the realism and became a shitty version of Fifa. Konami and seabass have yet to see this and more importantly realise this. I dont beleive a sinlge word about how good 2012 will be this, or how it will be that and how they have fixed everyhting. Until I play it i wont beleive anyhting.

 

[shaun7]

@Amateur. Everything manual means NO STATS INPUT. Why? Because YOU ARE CONTROLLING IT. MORE FREEDOM, I HIGHLY AGREE. AND MORE USER INPUT, A BIG YES, But I want to be able to do everything myself, but then one player does it better than the other because of his stats and 100% manual would mean, no stats involved.

So SEMI AUTO SOLUTION IS THE BEST, where you decide the direction, power, placement, movement, dribbling and stuff like that, but then STATS COME INTO PLAY and some players do it better than others.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

 

[Amateur]

Yes but if you sign messi, you wouldn't expect a slow midfielder like park ji sung to catch up with him even though this happened in the uefa cl final

Park Ji Sung is slow?

Anyways. The point is simple: how many times does that happen in real life football? and how many times does it happen in PES?

PES is a video game.... freak occurrences such as a slow player catching up with a fast player, are the type of things that can be simulated, only if there is a reason behind the freak occurrence. For example, Messi was very tired and Park Ji Sung was relatively fresh, and that is why a slow player can catch up with a faster player.

But that does not happen with PES. In PES, a slow player will catch up with a faster player, just because, no reason, no logic, simply because the computer randomly decided that the slow player should catch up with a faster player.

If you want that type of bullshit in a video game, that's your opinion, but it certainly makes little sense to have a video game that is supposed to revolve around stats and yet also undermines the stats. A lot of freak occurrences in PES11, but the video game lacks consistency and substance where it matters the most.

i don't think you read my earlier post or you just chose to ignore it but i won't sum it all up again, i'll just say this, a one two pass is basic so i love how that is being implemented in the game but giving a gamer that much control like you are talking about doesn't make the game a simulation anymore if you asked me.
the challenge is to find a formation or playing style that suits you and using the abilities of you players to get the most out of that formation.
so depending on all the stats of the day,fitness,mentality,the total teamwork depending on players that are on the field there will still be room for surprises,challenges but you won't be able to constantly force certain runs and will have to be on the look out for the players runs according to their abilities at that given time, on field situations and your selected formation.
at least that is my opinion on how a simulation should be implemented for a football game.
your great players should excel on their own by making intelligent runs depending on the situation and you should be on the look out for these runs especially when in control of a great passer but to constantly be able to force the issue doesn't sound too good to me and will make the game boring within weeks.
but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.
too give you an example: someone with a footballing brain that spots gaps in a defense easily would be able to take a team like Wigan and beat another gamer with a less defeloped footballing brain all day long even though that guy was controlling BARCELONA because he would be able to trigger runs that the real players of Wigan probably wouldn't dream of cause of their stats, formation or teamwork ratio.
the outcome of every game would be fully depending on the skills of the gamer and not on the selected team or players.
it would be the same like when you select a viper in a GT game and can beat the F1 all day just because you had the skill, because the selected vehicle didn't matter.

What makes you think that?

You are thinking about PES11, an ARCADE game. I am talking about a SIMULATION where even if you can easily "spot the gaps" you cannot easily exploit the gaps, because everything would work around the same rules, nothing would be exploitable: meaning that gaps would not be easy to exploit, regardless of your footballing brain.

Barcelona would win most games, because the stats would be a lot more important than your footballing brain; your footballing brain would make the difference when playing Barcelona vs Real Madrid.

but if i'm right what you are hoping for is already implemented in the PES games on the wii console so you would have a blast if you bought one.
the ratings for these wii games are also high so gamers seem to appreciate that amount of freedom but for me i just can't see how this can be a simulation.

You could not be more wrong. The wii versions of PES use a completely dumb system which works via the right analog stick. I am not talking about something dumb, such as off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick.

I am talking about something realistic and substantial, such as off the ball movement in accordance to a preset script, off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, and off the ball movement in accordance to a midfield target -- cannot be exploited, because it is impossible to exploit due to numerous reasons.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick -- can be exploited and is extremely dumb, because you can see all the gaps, thanks to the wide view perspective, and then you direct the right analog stick, and the player moves as if he had a radar for a brain -- dumb and easy to exploit, it's basically cheating.

I am not talking about a dumb right analog stick gimmick. I am talking about a substantial football simulation, wrapped into a simple control scheme: left analog stick to control the ball carrier, the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the rest of the game, simple.

I am honestly baffled, by the fact that some people find such a simple control scheme as "too manual". But it's all a matter of opinion, so.... I just think that you are looking too much into PES, which makes it impossible for you to honestly and neutrally consider a different type of game.

@Amateur. Everything manual means NO STATS INPUT. Why? Because YOU ARE CONTROLLING IT. MORE FREEDOM, I HIGHLY AGREE. AND MORE USER INPUT, A BIG YES, But I want to be able to do everything myself, but then one player does it better than the other because of his stats and 100% manual would mean, no stats involved.

So SEMI AUTO SOLUTION IS THE BEST, where you decide the direction, power, placement, movement, dribbling and stuff like that, but then STATS COME INTO PLAY and some players do it better than others.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

Directing the right analog stick, and a player moving without the ball in accordance to how you direct the right analog stick -- no stats input.

Creating a script, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and a player moving in accordance to the preset script -- does not affect the stats in any way, shape, or form.

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.

You are talking about stats determining how and when you use the stats. Therefore a player with a good "footballing brain" stat, would not be affected by the lack of footballing brain of the gamer.

Of course. The problem that this creates. Is that, since the gamer does not have control over the SCRIPT that determines how the stats are used: as a result, the gamer cannot possibly determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT.

And if the gamer cannot determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT: as a result, you get a video game that CANNOT fundamentally improve, because it is massively flawed at its foundation, where it matters the most.

Semi-auto is complete and utter bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. The same stats based concept could be applied to a completely manual game, it's just a matter of giving more precision to certain players and giving less precision to certain players.

Therefore the meaning of "semi-automatic" in my opinion is bullshit, because you could describe a completely manual system as "semi-automatic" just because the stats determine the range of things that each player can do.

Again. I do not understand your "semi-automatic" argument. The passing system of PES11 could be completely different and STILL take the stats into account, it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the passing system of PES5 was completely different, and it STILL took the stats into account.

What makes you think the system that I'm talking about would not take the stats into account? That's the part of your argument that I do not understand.

Oh and semi auto means scripting? NO.
That's AI. AI brings scripting. AI and full auto like pes is now in the shooting department means scripting and that's not what I was talking about.

Look at the passing in pes 11. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You control everything, BUT STATS COME INTO PLAY. Sure it could se some more refinement, but the core is there and I like it. I hope that all of the game is like that.

I think you are conveniently talking about the good aspect of the game, but you are conveniently ignoring the negative aspect of the concept that you are defending: movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer, and movement without the ball, at the end of the day, is just as important as passing the ball.

It does not matter how refined the passing system is, if the movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer.

I'm not making a convenient argument, I'm talking about the loose ends of PES, and how the mentioned "loose ends" can be fixed, and the fact that the mentioned "loose ends" cannot be fixed by simply refining the passing and shooting system.

I'm talking about expanding the player individuality into the tactical end of the game, and at the same time fixing the old "AI cheating" complaints; and you respond by saying that what I'm talking about would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality. I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

I can understand if you simply want a more simplistic experience such as PES11 or FIFA11, since it is a matter of opinion at the end of the day. But to say that implementing substance into the game, would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality, is just a very convenient and FALSE argument.

Yep, 100% accurate. Ever since next gen consoles have been out Pro Evo has been a bag of shite. Ppl can argue about the pro's and cons of one against another but the day Pro Evo switched over to PS3 it lost the realism and became a shitty version of Fifa. Konami and seabass have yet to see this and more importantly realise this. I dont beleive a sinlge word about how good 2012 will be this, or how it will be that and how they have fixed everyhting. Until I play it i wont beleive anyhting.

I do not 100% agree with you, though, I think PES12 will be a disappointment because the formula that Konami and EA Sports are using, is a formula that I strongly believe CANNOT improve anymore.

At the end of the day. I think people will complain about PES12 "not being enough of an improvement" or about "AI cheating" or about "PES12 is too easy", etc.

Because at the end of the day, Konami is just improving the AI, the ball physics, the animations, etc. Which are things that do nothing to fix the core flaws such as "AI cheating".

 

[Typho2k]

adfaf

in pes 11, the defenders catching up is a script thingy which will be gone in 12 they say..

Its time amateur studied game development i think

 

[Amateur]

in pes 11, the defenders catching up is a script thingy which will be gone in 12 they say..

Its time amateur studied game development i think

The "script thingy" cannot be fixed, because the "script thingy" is the foundation of PES. PES12 will have the "script thingy" without a doubt, maybe in a slightly different way, but it will be there at the end of the day.

PES12 will only offer a new cursor change system and improved AI, but other than that, the decade old flaws will remain. PES12 is just a yearly update; what makes you think one year is enough to fix a flaw that has not been fixed in ten years?

 

[shaun7]

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.

That was my POINT EXACTLY. This is what I want, however if stats come into play, then it's NOT MANUAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE AI USES THE PLAYER'S STATS TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME of something. So in the end, that's called semi auto, where you combine you skill and how you play, with the set of player's abilities.

Ans seriously, scripting has nothing to do with this, AI cheating? Yes, but scripting is a EASY WAY OUT for the developers to make the game SEEM HARD. It can be reduced but it can never go away.

Also, I want a different type of game NOT JUST PES, what was up with that? I mentioned that pes 11 was FULLY AUTO in the shooting and stuff like that AND I WANT A CHANGE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS AND FREEDOM. That for me, means that I WANT A BETTER PES.

If you're talking about a fully manual game, GO PLAY FIFA 10, seriously, it does it really well. Almost everything is manual. But guess what? The transfers will become irrelevant, speed and strength would be overrated badly since those 2 are the only 2 attributes that matter in manual and every team will be the same and all the goals will be the same. WHY? Because manual means you control everything and the stats do little to none.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Park Ji Sung is slow?

Anyways. The point is simple: how many times does that happen in real life football? and how many times does it happen in PES?

PES is a video game.... freak occurrences such as a slow player catching up with a fast player, are the type of things that can be simulated, only if there is a reason behind the freak occurrence. For example, Messi was very tired and Park Ji Sung was relatively fresh, and that is why a slow player can catch up with a faster player.

But that does not happen with PES. In PES, a slow player will catch up with a faster player, just because, no reason, no logic, simply because the computer randomly decided that the slow player should catch up with a faster player.

If you want that type of bullshit in a video game, that's your opinion, but it certainly makes little sense to have a video game that is supposed to revolve around stats and yet also undermines the stats. A lot of freak occurrences in PES11, but the video game lacks consistency and substance where it matters the most.



What makes you think that?

You are thinking about PES11, an ARCADE game. I am talking about a SIMULATION where even if you can easily "spot the gaps" you cannot easily exploit the gaps, because everything would work around the same rules, nothing would be exploitable: meaning that gaps would not be easy to exploit, regardless of your footballing brain.

Barcelona would win most games, because the stats would be a lot more important than your footballing brain; your footballing brain would make the difference when playing Barcelona vs Real Madrid.



You could not be more wrong. The wii versions of PES use a completely dumb system which works via the right analog stick. I am not talking about something dumb, such as off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick.

I am talking about something realistic and substantial, such as off the ball movement in accordance to a preset script, off the ball movement in accordance to the position of the ball, and off the ball movement in accordance to a midfield target -- cannot be exploited, because it is impossible to exploit due to numerous reasons.

Off the ball movement in accordance to the right analog stick -- can be exploited and is extremely dumb, because you can see all the gaps, thanks to the wide view perspective, and then you direct the right analog stick, and the player moves as if he had a radar for a brain -- dumb and easy to exploit, it's basically cheating.

I am not talking about a dumb right analog stick gimmick. I am talking about a substantial football simulation, wrapped into a simple control scheme: left analog stick to control the ball carrier, the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the rest of the game, simple.

I am honestly baffled, by the fact that some people find such a simple control scheme as "too manual". But it's all a matter of opinion, so.... I just think that you are looking too much into PES, which makes it impossible for you to honestly and neutrally consider a different type of game.



Directing the right analog stick, and a player moving without the ball in accordance to how you direct the right analog stick -- no stats input.

Creating a script, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and a player moving in accordance to the preset script -- does not affect the stats in any way, shape, or form.

The stats would still decide the range of things that a player can do, the massive difference is, that you would decide how you use the stats. Again. I do not understand your argument.

The stats would still determine how good Messi is with the ball; however, the stats would not determine how you get Messi into the game. Getting Messi into the game would be your job. Therefore, you can use the stats how and when you want to use the stats: having control of how and when you use the stats, would not affect the actual stats. Messi would be a great player regardless of your footballing brain.

You are talking about stats determining how and when you use the stats. Therefore a player with a good "footballing brain" stat, would not be affected by the lack of footballing brain of the gamer.

Of course. The problem that this creates. Is that, since the gamer does not have control over the SCRIPT that determines how the stats are used: as a result, the gamer cannot possibly determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT.

And if the gamer cannot determine the MOMENTUM OF THE SCRIPT: as a result, you get a video game that CANNOT fundamentally improve, because it is massively flawed at its foundation, where it matters the most.

Semi-auto is complete and utter bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. The same stats based concept could be applied to a completely manual game, it's just a matter of giving more precision to certain players and giving less precision to certain players.

Therefore the meaning of "semi-automatic" in my opinion is bullshit, because you could describe a completely manual system as "semi-automatic" just because the stats determine the range of things that each player can do.

Again. I do not understand your "semi-automatic" argument. The passing system of PES11 could be completely different and STILL take the stats into account, it's not as black and white as you make it sound. In fact, the passing system of PES5 was completely different, and it STILL took the stats into account.

What makes you think the system that I'm talking about would not take the stats into account? That's the part of your argument that I do not understand.



I think you are conveniently talking about the good aspect of the game, but you are conveniently ignoring the negative aspect of the concept that you are defending: movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer, and movement without the ball, at the end of the day, is just as important as passing the ball.

It does not matter how refined the passing system is, if the movement without the ball is completely determined by the whims of a computer.

I'm not making a convenient argument, I'm talking about the loose ends of PES, and how the mentioned "loose ends" can be fixed, and the fact that the mentioned "loose ends" cannot be fixed by simply refining the passing and shooting system.

I'm talking about expanding the player individuality into the tactical end of the game, and at the same time fixing the old "AI cheating" complaints; and you respond by saying that what I'm talking about would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality. I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

I can understand if you simply want a more simplistic experience such as PES11 or FIFA11, since it is a matter of opinion at the end of the day. But to say that implementing substance into the game, would produce an adverse effect on the player individuality, is just a very convenient and FALSE argument.



I do not 100% agree with you, though, I think PES12 will be a disappointment because the formula that Konami and EA Sports are using, is a formula that I strongly believe CANNOT improve anymore.

At the end of the day. I think people will complain about PES12 "not being enough of an improvement" or about "AI cheating" or about "PES12 is too easy", etc.

Because at the end of the day, Konami is just improving the AI, the ball physics, the animations, etc. Which are things that do nothing to fix the core flaws such as "AI cheating".

lets get this right, i hate PES 2011 SO I AM NOT IN ANY WAY HOPING FOR A REPEAT.
you don't want the same thing the wii game is offering at the moment, so thank god, other then that i don't really understand how you want this implemented and be able to trigger this with a button manually without messing up the meaning of the stats and formations.
if you mean being able to program predetermend runs in training, and your formations by your players so you know what to expect and can play exactly like you trained and programmed, it sounds great, but i still think you shouldn't be able to force it manually.
you should be on the look out for the opportunity in the match to execute this move when everyone is in position and the outcome would be depending on the stats, opponent etc but if its not that you mean then it still sounds too manual for me but hey lets hope they implement that as an option which you can turn on or off cause in the long run we are all paying for the game and should be able to get what we want but that of course is just theory.

 

[shaun7]

^So you're with me for the next pes?
A more user input game without messing the stats up?

I want a semi auto game. Where you decide everything like shots, passes, dribbling and stuff like that, basically the directions and THE GAME LISTENS TO YOU and then the stats come into play and players execute them differently depending on the stats.

 

[abu97]

i would rather have a half individual and a half statwise game because what is the point of messi not acting like messi. so you shouldn't have it ful individual or it would ruin master league on dynamic (if they still will put up that mode on pes 2012)

 

[RAMAXWY]

^So you're with me for the next pes?
A more user input game without messing the stats up?

I want a semi auto game. Where you decide everything like shots, passes, dribbling and stuff like that, basically the directions and THE GAME LISTENS TO YOU and then the stats come into play and players execute them differently depending on the stats.

Yes, that's my idea of a simulation. Can't seem to understand how it would work if they implemented what he is suggesting. It makes the stats seem useless to me.

 

[Makavelian]

The only way they can make a true sim is if they made it 90 minutes a game .Not going to happen pes is not a sim and never will be or has been.I actuaally like the players being able to catch up to faster players because it encourages more football in multiplayer.You guys are demanding way way too much for a yearly updated game and are going to be disapointed again.It's only a game just enjoy it .

 

[Amateur]

That was my POINT EXACTLY. This is what I want, however if stats come into play, then it's NOT MANUAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE AI USES THE PLAYER'S STATS TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME of something. So in the end, that's called semi auto, where you combine you skill and how you play, with the set of player's abilities.

I never described my idea as "manual". I mean, pressing and releasing the L2 button, and the player moving in accordance to a preset script CANNOT be described as something "manual".

Though having said that. I am talking about the stats determining how and when I can use the stats, but without randomly deciding things that I never wanted in the first place.

For example. Xavi Hernandez would have the ability of moving at any given time. Therefore pressing and releasing the L2 button, at any given time, would result with Xavi Hernandez moving from Point A to Point B.

On the other hand. An average midfielder, would *not* have the ability of moving at any given time. Therefore pressing and releasing the L2 button *when* the ball carrier is being man marked, would do nothing, because the average midfielder cannot move *once* the ball carrier is engaged in a one on one battle.

That's an example of STATS determining *when* I can use the stats, without the necessity of stats taking over the game and deciding things that you never wanted in the first place.

The stats could also determine *how* I can use the stats, because the stats could determine the range of directions in which a player can run without the ball, without the necessity of taking over the game. Such a concept could be described as "semi-automatic" because the stats would determine the range of things that each player can do; however, I do not want a "semi-automatic" system where the stats take over the game.

Hence the massive difference between the AI thinking for you, and, the AI merely giving you more tools to do more intelligent things.

Xavi Hernandez having unlimited range of directions and the ability to move at any given time, enables you to do more intelligent things with Xavi Hernandez than with the average midfilder. Yet the massive difference is, that Xavi Hernandez would not automatically do intelligent things simply because the AI is pulling the strings for you.

A gamer who lacks a footballing brain might not know how to make the best use of Xavi Hernandez; however, that would not change the fact that Xavi Hernandez is statistically equipped to do more intelligent things than the average player.

On the other hand. When the AI thinks for you. It means that Xavi Hernandez will do intelligent things without your input as a gamer, and in doing such a thing, the video game becomes an automatic arcade game.

Hence the massive difference between the gamer determining how and when he uses the stats, as opposed to the stats determining how and when the gamer uses the stats. Sounds trivial, but the difference is revolutionary.

CHESS is a game that revolves around player individuality, yet a computer is not determining when and how you use your pieces. The fact that the gamer has complete control over how and when he uses his pieces does not affect the player individuality in any way.

Ans seriously, scripting has nothing to do with this, AI cheating? Yes, but scripting is a EASY WAY OUT for the developers to make the game SEEM HARD. It can be reduced but it can never go away.

The SCRIPT is completely necessary due to numerous facts; however, as I was saying, the gamer could have control over the SCRIPT as opposed to the SCRIPT having control over the gamer.

That's the massive game changer. The game would still be SCRIPTED, but the game would be scripted by yourself. The AI would not think for you, the AI would act in accordance to your instructions. Therefore your footballing brain would gain more importance, but without undermining the stats of the players.

Hence why I mentioned the idea of creating the SCRIPT and manually triggering the script by pressing and releasing the L2 button. Because it would fix the "AI cheating" flaw, which is a core flaw. And at the same time, would not undermine the stats, and would actually maximize the player individuality. Therefore making it a win-win solution to a massive flaw.

Also, I want a different type of game NOT JUST PES, what was up with that? I mentioned that pes 11 was FULLY AUTO in the shooting and stuff like that AND I WANT A CHANGE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS AND FREEDOM. That for me, means that I WANT A BETTER PES.

If you're talking about a fully manual game, GO PLAY FIFA 10, seriously, it does it really well. Almost everything is manual. But guess what? The transfers will become irrelevant, speed and strength would be overrated badly since those 2 are the only 2 attributes that matter in manual and every team will be the same and all the goals will be the same. WHY? Because manual means you control everything and the stats do little to none.

FIFA11 is not really manual, because it cannot be manual, because the passing system cannot be manual due to numerous reasons.

FIFA11 is not manual in any respect. It is a flawed formula that cannot be manual. It is scripted gameplay with irrelevant gimmicks that give it a "manual" feel to it.

Long story short. FIFA has always been a shit game. The off the ball feature where you tap the shoulder button and the center forward runs forwards into space, is representative of what FIFA is: a scripted video game with irrelevant gimmicks that give it a "manual" feel to it.

You tap the shoulder button and as a result the center forward runs forwards into space: feels and looks manual, but in fact it is scripted and insubstantial.

I also want more freedom, but before having more freedom on the technical areas of the game, I think it should be higher on the list of priorities to actually have a foundation on which to build on, which is what PES11 does not have.

PES11 does not have a foundation on which to build on, Konami is simply perfecting the technical areas of the game, but the foundation of the game remains the same. Technical improvements can only go so far when the foundation of the game makes it impossible to improve, which is what is happening with the PES and FIFA series.

I think fixing the core flaws of PES should be the top priority, and after having a foundation on which to build on, then you focus on the technical areas of the game.

lets get this right, i hate PES 2011 SO I AM NOT IN ANY WAY HOPING FOR A REPEAT.
you don't want the same thing the wii game is offering at the moment, so thank god, other then that i don't really understand how you want this implemented and be able to trigger this with a button manually without messing up the meaning of the stats and formations.
if you mean being able to program predetermend runs in training, and your formations by your players so you know what to expect and can play exactly like you trained and programmed, it sounds great, but i still think you shouldn't be able to force it manually.
you should be on the look out for the opportunity in the match to execute this move when everyone is in position and the outcome would be depending on the stats, opponent etc but if its not that you mean then it still sounds too manual for me but hey lets hope they implement that as an option which you can turn on or off cause in the long run we are all paying for the game and should be able to get what we want but that of course is just theory.

We agree on one thing for sure, neither of us likes PES 2011. But as far as my idea goes, you are not looking at the bigger picture, in terms of how much the player individuality would improve as a result of such an off the ball system.

You implement different types of movement without the ball. And then you implement statistical importance into the tactical end of the game. For example, certain players would have the ability of moving at any given time, whereas the average player would not have the ability of moving at any given time; certain players would have an unlimited range of directions in which to run without the ball, whereas the average player would have limited directions in which to run without the ball, etc.

I know that the video game cannot fundamentally improve if the gamer cannot manually trigger predetermined runs.

I am talking about manually triggering the off the ball movement of just ONE individual; you would not manually trigger the off the ball movement of the center forward nor the off the ball movement of the second stricker, the off the ball movement of the mentioned targets would automatically trigger itself in accordance to your specifications. Therefore you are not "manually forcing" anything really.

The game would still feel organic and uncertain, because you would not exactly know how things would play out.

 

[S-D-P]

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/jon-murphy-pes-2012-video-blog/

Murphy blog with some interesting news, like what I'm hearing so far.

 

[Amateur]

The only way they can make a true sim is if they made it 90 minutes a game .Not going to happen pes is not a sim and never will be or has been.I actuaally like the players being able to catch up to faster players because it encourages more football in multiplayer.You guys are demanding way way too much for a yearly updated game and are going to be disapointed again.It's only a game just enjoy it .

That's not true at all mate. Have you ever seen 10 MINUTE highlights? 20 MINUTE highlights?

It is true that it is impossible to produce a proper football simulation if you want to squeeze all the substance into a 5 MINUTE game. However, 10 MINUTES and 20 MINUTES are more than enough to produce a true sim.

Therefore, I disagree with you. I do not think that I expect too much from a video game. I think that I am merely a REALISTIC person whom is asking for his money's worth. A PS3 console is quite expensive, and I'm playing shitty video games like PES11. Hey, I'm just asking for my money's worth, nothing more and nothing less.

Unrealistic expectations? Not at all. I merely know when a video game CANNOT improve anymore due to numerous facts, and with such a realization, as a consumer, it is logical to ask for something that can actually improve. I mean, what is the point of supporting a product that has no potential to improve?

It's only a video game? It is worth 60 dollars on a yearly basis. It sells millions of copies on a yearly basis. It is a powerful industry. I do not think you take it seriously enough.

I guess this is the difference between blatant FANBOYS who will like anything the company produces, and realistic people who are fed up of the yearly updates that remain inconclusive after a decade of development.

Do you think it should be deemed as acceptable that five years after PES5 we are playing PES11?

FIVE YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT!! and PES11 is the best "evolution" they can produce? Give me a break. I am not demanding too much at all.

It's called research. When you start supporting product, you might do some research on what Konami has previously produced. The ISS series, started in 1995, was a more clever concept than PES. The PES series, started in 2001, is a dumbed down version of ISS, more automatic because it revolves more around stats rather than ability.

So that's a total of 16 years since Konami started producing footy sims. And it shows a clear trend of dumbing down the product, in order to make the product more appealing to a wider audience . Which as a result, means that the "EVOLUTION" has not actually been an evolution, because the product has been dumbed down, the product has not actually improved for the better.

16 YEARS OF DEVELOPMENT!! That is why yearly updates are inconclusive, because the company is interested in making more money, the company is not genuinely interested in making a better product.

You would think that Konami would replace the ISS series with something better, due to the money that you, as a consumer, have invested into the series. But that's just wishful thinking, because Konami will use your money in order to produce a dumber product that can be appealing to a wider audience, in order to make more money!!

Therefore, yearly updates are inconclusive, because the product that you liked and supported five years ago, will get dumber and dumber down the line: it will not improve for the better, it will never be as good as you would hope, it is an inconclusive and repetitive and very successful business.

Am I asking for too much? No. I just think, and I have reason to think, that five years down the line, we will be playing a dumbed down version of PES which will be appealing to a wider audience. The game will be utter shit at its core, but a wider audience will find it appealing.

As a consumer, I am complaining and talking about better ways of playing a footy sim. There is always the possibility that a company is reading the complaints from certain fans of the PES and FIFA series, and that the company will look to produce exactly what Konami and EA Sports do not want to produce.

 

[Makavelian]

I take this serious enough .You just expect too much from a game that's updated yearly.Every time i read your posts it's always six paragraphs of nothing.Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action(go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead and they've got the balance perfect for 10 minute matches.it's just the tinted glasses of great games like pes 3/5/6 that people deprecating new pes games because everyone's getting older and being able to put up with less annoying things.Like older pes's were fucking riddled with flaws but we overlooked them because we were younger and not so critical ..
I like how you got a jab in about me being a pes fan boy , maybe your right but i only enjoy pes as fifa is to easy and the learning curve is a week at maximum .
Tbh though i would love for ea to shit on konami and produce the better game for all it's fancy dress etc..

Every year i give both both game an equal chance ,even when pes 2008 was released i preferred it over fifa release because pes you can always tune into and play a great game of multi-player offline or on with like minded individuals.
The only games that can be classed as a real sim is games like gtr/race 07 and certain other pc racing games .
If you think about football played worldwide, it is quite a tedius game majority of the time with fits and bursts in the 90 minutes .If they made pes too realistic it would be an abortion.I think pes 2011 with fixed responsiveness and cursor switching , toned down through balls on the ground and fixed referees would be amazing.


My pc costs alot more than a ps3 but i'm not bitching ,i don't expect the world every year when pes is released because it's yearly updated game.If it had been in the works for 3 years then that would be different.Despite stupid flaws what god only knows how the play testers didn't see or unless they had no time to fix them before the release they have done a great job of moving the series on in the space since 2010 was released.

 

[abu97]

Yeah, for me pes 2011 is hundreds times better than pes 6 because i am only 14 and i am young so pes 2011 is so better. Every game has it's negatives but pes 6 - no power gauge, passing was too automatic, goalies were crap and animations were worse and master league as crap. All hardcore pes gamers prefer old-gen rather than next-gen. I'm next-gen so i prefer pes 2011 or 2012

 

[Makavelian]

Don't worry you'll become a moaning cunt as well in a few years despite the quality of the new pes's

.

 

[Amateur]

I take this serious enough .You just expect too much from a game that's updated yearly.Every time i read your posts it's always six paragraphs of nothing.Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action(go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead and they've got the balance perfect for 10 minute matches.it's just the tinted glasses of great games like pes 3/5/6 that people deprecating new pes games because everyone's getting older and being able to put up with less annoying things.Like older pes's were fucking riddled with flaws but we overlooked them because we were younger and not so critical ..
I like how you got a jab in about me being a pes fan boy , maybe your right but i only enjoy pes as fifa is to easy and the learning curve is a week at maximum .
Tbh though i would love for ea to shit on konami and produce the better game for all it's fancy dress etc..

Every year i give both both game an equal chance ,even when pes 2008 was released i preferred it over fifa release because pes you can always tune into and play a great game of multi-player offline or on with like minded individuals.
The only games that can be classed as a real sim is games like gtr/race 07 and certain other pc racing games .
If you think about football played worldwide, it is quite a tedius game majority of the time with fits and bursts in the 90 minutes .If they made pes too realistic it would be an abortion.I think pes 2011 with fixed responsiveness and cursor switching , toned down through balls on the ground and fixed referees would be amazing.


My pc costs alot more than a ps3 but i'm not bitching ,i don't expect the world every year when pes is released because it's yearly updated game.If it had been in the works for 3 years then that would be different.Despite stupid flaws what god only knows how the play testers didn't see or unless they had no time to fix them before the release they have done a great job of moving the series on in the space since 2010 was released.

Or maybe. Just maybe. Old PES games such as PES5 and PES6 were released in 2005 and 2006. Meaning that at the time, flawed video games such as PES5 and PES6 were certainly good enough.

On the other hand. The video game that you hilariously described as "substantial" is in fact one of the dumbest video games ever made, in year 2011, and that's why it is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I do not think it has anything to do with my age. I think it has everything to do with the fact that Konami and EA Sports have not even attempted to do something innovative in the last six years. The years of experience of playing PES or FIFA or ISS, would have made me critical regardless of my age.

If I start playing PES when I'm ten years old. By the time that I'm 18 and I realize that Konami and EA Sports have not done anything innovative in the last eight years; as a fan of the series, I will certainly complain about it. I could be 25 years old or 14 years old, it has little to do with the age of the consumer, and more to do with the experience and knowledge of the consumer: a 14 year old kid could easily be better informed than a 25 year old adult who just started playing footy arcade games.

To suggest that making PES "too realistic" would be an abortion, is complete and utter bullshit, based on nothing concrete. On one hand, it is flat out impossible to make a footy sim too realistic, simply because it is impossible due to mathematical reasons. On the other hand, PES11 is an abortion, as far as I'm concerned.

Bottom line. You are a consumer who makes generic, false, and convenient, statements or arguments. I'm just talking about something quite simple, and unlike you, my ideas or opinions are based on something objective, as opposed to the fact that you think PES11 is substantial regardless of the numerous facts which show you how substantial PES11 really is. Unlike you, I'm not going around telling people that their expectations are too high or too low, because it contributes absolutely nothing to the content of the conversation.

You said that my expectations are too high. I responded to your comment. Simple. But I guess you like talking about how you think that PES11 is substantial, and how you think that my expectations are too high, and how you think that I bitch too much about the game, etc, etc. You obviously do not understand nor care about my point of view, but you wanted to say something anyways.

Your first sentence sum's it up that you want a pes game to be the highlights of a match where it's non stop action (go play pes 2008), when actually when you play a clever player in pes 2011 this game is miles ahead

The quoted sentence sums it all up. I should go play PES08 because that's what I want, which is why I spend time talking about new concepts to make the game slower and more substantial. And of course, somehow, PES11 is too substantial for me to handle, which is why I complain about PES11 being a dumbed down video game.

At the end of the day. You are correct. I just want non stop action like PES08, and PES11 is simply too substantial for my fickle mind to comprehend.

 

[Makavelian]

At the end of the day. You are correct. I just want non stop action like PES08, and PES11 is simply too substantial for my fickle mind to comprehend.

Very humble of you.
Thanks.