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360 degree movement in PES? - a games animator's views

Zygalski

Administrator
Seen stuff similar to this being brought up a bit around here so thought I'd share something I read a while back.
Both posts by gragra of www.issextreme.com

A. 360 degree animation:

gragra said:
Animation 101 4 Konami, 360 Movement? GOOD LUCK!
I have noticed a few of you complaining about PES series' 8 way directional movement and wishing it was 360 degrees.

Well here's why it will probably NEVER happen unless Videogames are revolutioized in terms of object tracking.

1. Every Player out there on that there Konami pitch is controled by a Master floor bone (lets call it the central node) that supplies the engine with XYZ co-ordinates of the position of the player.
When the coders/programmers move the "player" that node is really moving and it is in effect "pulling" or moving the player along with it*.

2. Herin lies the problem with 8 way movement and Animation:
a) Matrix, Spiderman Movies etc etc 3D animation moves chracters around using ONE "Planted Keyframe" for the Feet. Essentially they lock the feet into a position and then the rest of body is moveable.
That's why the 3D Spiderman and Keanus movement ROCK SOLID. They run across rooftops & leap from surface to surface with complete precision**.
b) Videogames using a central node can NEVER have this. The Heirachy for the feet and in esscence "destroyed" with the addition of this node. The feet can NOT be locked into position because they are always getting moved around from the node. If the node moves then so does EVERYTHING, it head, arms AND Legs. ALL Videogames (to this date) use this method.
c) To keep a Foot stationery using a central node system sometimes means setting individual Keyframes per Frame. That's right PERHAPS 30 Keyframes per second!!!!!!!!! Take a GOOD look at Beckham's free kick animation - That left foot of his SLIDES. In real life (and if you were animating for a movie) That foot would be firmly in place for 95% of the Kick.
d) Say Konami want to implement 16 way direction (sounds amazing with the possibilities but doh - wait on a minute....) they have to have all the exisiting animations for their current 8 way (ie North, NS, South, SE, East, EW, West & NW) PLUS animations for the new directions (ie NorthNorthWest, SouthSouthWest etc etc etc).
- That's double the animations! THAT'S JUST MOVEMENT - lets add the shooting on those angles, the passing, the tripping.
e) They need twice the Animation staff and twice the amount of time to get it right every "yearly" update.
f) PlayStation2's CPU could NOT handle double the calculations of 22 player movements.
g) Sliding Occurs when there are not enough Keyframes implemented and the foot's offset XYZ value is not kept constant.
h) Videogames using Motion Capture that is not "cleaned up" by a Traditional Animator has sliding.

So there you go. Perhaps with the Playstation3 and a re-work of the Videogame animation system we could get it to be nigh on PERFECT. Until then - enjoy your diagonal run guys!

You can see they have fudged it slightly this time around. Take a good look at the Diagonal runs - The arm movement is comical to say the least - the player looks like a Chicken trying to fly. Weird. The Straight runs (ie N,S,E,W) are a masculan & powerful run but the diagonals look like he has a pole up his arse. Perhaps the motion capture was a little off that day or the guy wasn't wearing the suit properly?

Hats off to their team though - The animation overall is EASILY the best on any Sports game!

NOTES:
* That Node is essentially the "parent/master" controller and the player in effect becomes a "child/slave" to the Node.
** Movie Characters are free roaming in an enviroment and the interaction is usually hand-done as opposed to an node-based engine controlling interaction and movement.

Taken from http://www.issextreme.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7986
with replies to be seen over there.




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B. Videogame 101:

gragra said:
Videogame 101 4 Konami, You are NOT a Jedi YET Konami

You are not a Jedi YET Konami.

I recently finished a Games Animation course at Qantm (www.qantm.com.au). We learnt Videogame 101 and Animation 101. Anyway, after you know what goes into making games you truly CAN comment.

Oh boy do I want to comment on my Favourite Game.

2 Steps Forward, 3 steps Back

Forward (GAMEPLAY): GOOD
1. Volleys and First time shots way better - finally thank you!
2. Trick moves - good for the aces out there that can do these with the good players. Loosening up the series that was getting a bit sterile.

Back (BASICS? HEARD OF THEM KONAMI??????????): BAD!
1. When you pass the ball to another player they can still just STAND THERE. User (Player) has the control NOT software application (game). Dust off your old copy of ISS2000 on PS2 (yes the launch Konami Soccer title) and remember how KCEO GOT IT RIGHT:
- Player SHOULD have complete control over player - no "auto runs", no "just stand there" - SHOVE SUPER CANCEL - Auto scripted events in games just SHOULD NOT be there!
2. Control Orientation - Play the game in Vertical Camera mode and the shooting directions make sense (ie diagonal left up for top left corner of goal if running upwards towards goal). BUT the mode most of us play is the Horizontal "TV"/"Default" Camera Angle LEFT to RIGHT (or other way).
- ROTATE ORIENTATION 90 degrees with Camera Orientation for God's SAKE!!!!!!!! If running left to right then Right on control stick is centre of goal and up or down are either of the Posts!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Curl on Shoots is too faint. Curl Physics model is iffy.
- Seen Pirez bend (in) a goal for Arsenal? Seen Lampard hit a powerful bending (away) shot for Chelsea? - DAMN STRAIGHT! Why is it not the same as free kicks (in terms of strength?)

Now guys - I LOVE PES3, don't get me wrong but this IS NO.3!!!!!!! Surely by now some of these glaring things should have been fixed by now!

Does anyone agree with me here?

From
http://www.issextreme.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7985
 

asher b

Registered User
on the new fifa, from what ive played of it, the players seem to run in more than 8 directions.

how come it cant be in pes but it can be in fifa?
 

asher b

Registered User
i use the direction pad if thats what u mean. i find it hard to play the game with the analogue stick.
 

mutu

Betting Guru
doesnt make a difference theres still no 360 degree movement with analogue stick

but thats rubbish there are games in which 360 degree movement is possible

or maybe im just thinking of the good old pc :(
 

mutu

Betting Guru
recently i played manhunt where they made you use analogue stick so now im pretty nifty with it :D

i still done get the stuff about the nodes
 

yr970255

Registered User
Winning Eleven on the Gamecube (Jap import) is 360 degrees turning when you use the analogue and i think it controls much better than the playstation version, I dont see why they dont make it the same on the playstation coz it make more playable than it already is
 

sheringham316

Registered User
The analogue for ps2 is different. Well its crap!! It moves too much makin it harder to play games with. Plus its too smalll and fat. The gamecube one is alot easier to move since its dosent move as easly makin it more steady, same with x-box. Infact i dont even think the analogue for ps2 A analogue, i think it too be a button which you press in so you can do taxi missions in GTA:Vice City/GTA 3
 

t1000v2.0

Registered User
No, there are definately games which use 360 movement. According to that post.....its not possible in games....but i'm pretty sure it is. I mean, I remember Fifa road to world cup 98 on the ps1 had a better rotation of the players, definately felt like you could anyways..although the game was pretty crap. But All Iss games have always had less rotation with their players. So i dunno about all this node stuff...cos its saying 360 movement is not possible.....or maybe I didn't quite get the gist of that post...hmmmm.
 

RAISH

Registered User
Reading that first post just goes to shows how the BIG BAND just did not happen all by its self, we all had a creator.
 

RAISH

Registered User
t1000v2.0 said:
No, there are definately games which use 360 movement. According to that post.....its not possible in games....but i'm pretty sure it is. I mean, I remember Fifa road to world cup 98 on the ps1 had a better rotation of the players, definately felt like you could anyways..although the game was pretty crap. But All Iss games have always had less rotation with their players. So i dunno about all this node stuff...cos its saying 360 movement is not possible.....or maybe I didn't quite get the gist of that post...hmmmm.

Thats fine,,,, turnng 360 is easy (BUT U DONT SEE AN ACTUALL AMOVEMENT OF THE PLAYER- THE FRAME FREEZES) .
 
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