Constructive Criticism on PES09

[Amateur]

Instead of the usual thread for expressing how much you hate PES09 or how much you love PES09.. I find it useful to have a thread, not just for ideas or suggestions, but for discussing both the Pros and Cons about PES09. So that we can have some sort of constructive debate.

And also, this would be a good Thread to Post any Question about PES09. So that we don't end up having 5 threads asking the same question.

Anyways, I'll start this thread by elaborating on both positives and negatives about PES09. Hopefully, this will lead to some sort of constructive criticism thread. If not, at least I tried.

PES09 is “tactical” in Intent, but “arcade-like” in Execution.

It is “tactical” in that “Long Balls” are very effective this time around, you can really alternate between Ground Passes and Lobbed Passes. This has opened new ways of “counter attacking” amongst other things. And Unlike PES6, it isn’t a game that forces you to play through the Ground.

It is tactical in that the use of the R2 “strategies” does makes a clear difference, gameplan A and B is actually effective for in-game purposes. But only 4 strategies for all the different situations??

It is tactical in that first-touch passes are better and more effective than single-handedly tacking on a whole team. PEES09 encourages the “passing game”, be it through the ground or through the air.

But for every tactical touch there’s an “arcade-like execution”.

The one-on-one play is very arcade-like, with edgy animations and a very Limited set of options. The edgy-robot-like animations are the main Reason for the game’s lack of Feeling and Intensity. And the limited set of options for both “dribbling and marking” make it worst.

The Defensive Play is very arcade-like, in that there’s no sense of “work rate” going on. I can basically defend well with every fast and agile player. Which means that it is usual to have forwards suddenly turning into world class defenders.

The Acceleration in the last-third of the pitch is very one-dimensional and arcade-like. With controls like having to hold the R2 and then tapping the R1 just so the player can go from slow to a 100% sprint. The control isn’t bad, but — the execution spells “arcade game”.

The Dribbling Ability of every player is pretty much the same, in the game Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi are equally good at “Cutting The Ball” and at “dribbling through small spaces”. Which again, leans closer to arcade game.

This is where the “finesse” of Football gets lost:

- When everyone runs just as much as Gennaro Gattuso. The game losses credibility, this is where Stats like “Work Rate” should be taking place.

- When there are barely any controls nor options for Defending and stealing the ball. This is where Stats such as “Marking”, “Defensive Awareness”, and “Defensive Composure” should be taken into consideration.

- When you only have a “Dribbling Accuracy” and “Dribbling Speed” Stat to cover something as important as the actual dribbling technique of every player — Cutting the Ball, Shielding the Ball, Body Feints, Flicking the Ball, 360ª Roulette — all different abilities, all individual attributes.

PES 2010 should be that start towards a more realistic interpretation of Football. How would you like to see that happen??
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Just a few questions about PES09, or PES in general:

- Is the Weight of a player relevant at all for in-game purposes??

- Does the Leg Length of a player affects his Dribbling??

- Balance = Strength??

 

[dan80]

i also agree on the defensive like i get anoyed when players go out of position like ronaldo i dont mind him switching to te left or right but i get annoyed when he starts defending running just to get the ball and then got the ball and then i could run him up field and score

but what i like about pes is its addictiveness to keep u coming back for more

 

[jenicek68]

Amateur: I know what you mean.. But the thing is, that FIFA fans coming constantly and disturbing with comparing how it is best.. I thing, that there should be some way, how to delete coments with word FIFA.. Even my own should be deleted..

 

[byondthought]

Amateur: I know what you mean.. But the thing is, that FIFA fans coming constantly and disturbing with comparing how it is best.. I thing, that there should be some way, how to delete coments with word FIFA.. Even my own should be deleted..

Why do you care about people saying good things about FIFA..???

if fifa has something good that pes can adopt i want to hear it...we are not at war, get over it !!

i want the best possible FOOTBALL game, if people have good ideas i dont care where they take them from, even if they were to take them from a TENNIS game ffs...

 

[shaun7]

^I am not at war with fifa since I like both. Fifa fanboys are at war with pes fans on this forum because they come here saying how great Fifa is and how bad pes is. And that's actually unfair because this is a pes forum.
OT: I think that the defnsive play has to go back to somewhere like pes 5. It had the best defence play out of all pes games.
Also more abilities can be inculded to define the players better. Amateur explained this really good.

 

[byondthought]

^I am not at war with fifa since I like both. Fifa fanboys are at war with pes fans on this forum because they come here saying how great Fifa is and how bad pes is. And that's actually unfair because this is a pes forum.
OT: I think that the defnsive play has to go back to somewhere like pes 5. It had the best defence play out of all pes games.
Also more abilities can be inculded to define the players better. Amateur explained this really good.

someone needs to flag up the negatives and if they flag up the positives about fifa at the same time its good for football gaming...

i have made no blood oath with konami and had no part in making the game so it doesnt hurt my feeling when people have a go..

Fan mentality for computer games is ridiculous

if you dont reply to their posts they will stop posting them, why let people get a rise out of you....

 

[shaun7]

^You are correct. But they are annoying.

 

[Luis_Garcia]

The edgy-robot-like animations are the main Reason for the game’s lack of Feeling and Intensity

Spot on, your whole post is top notch mate, rep for that. And I fully agree about the animation. It has all the basis of an incredible football game. It just feels so robotic and unnatural at times. Give it some fluidity and a LOT more animations, i.e 20 or more different passing animations etc etc, so each time can feel different. As well as MANY more running styles, so there is a sense of individuality with most players

Also agree with implementing more stats; composure, work rate etc. Which would further enhance the importance of the great tactical side of PES.

Top post

 

[PJACE1]

dont forget they need to improve the goalkeepers!!!
they seem to never grab the ball when saving,
fifas goalkeepers are much better so im hoping in pes2010 they sort that out!

 

[Amateur]

I’ve started playing PES09 again, and I’m getting more used to it. If you ignore the arcade-like movements and instead focus on the much better Graphics — PES09 could be fun for awhile.

But it is far from “Evolution” as the Title suggests. There are so many things that remain unchanged, a few things that have only changed for the worst. It isn’t what I expected from the Next Gen Evolution.

And perhaps, the programmers do not know how to actually work with Next Gen Consoles. Or at least that’s the impression I get.

Personally, if it weren’t for the “Blu-ray” player I’d say the PS3 has been a scam. At least in my case, as PES was the sole purpose of my PS2.

But enough about programmers, next gen consoles, and “Blu-ray” players. Let’s talk about PES and how it could or should improve.

This are just some of the improvements, that although simple, could make a great difference:

A better system for the Stats, they have used that same set of Stats and Special Abilities for years now. And I do not believe in that old “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.

Some of the things that I have yet to experience in any PES to date -is- a difference in Physical Strength. If I have fragile players like Xavi and Iniesta -I- would like it if I was forced to play a passing game.

If I’m Barcelona FC -and- I’m playing against bigger, less talented, stronger opponents.. I would like it if I was forced into playing a quick passing game.

But this never happens for any particular reason, at times I can have Xavi turning into something like Patrick Vieira in the middle of the pitch. And in other occasions Xavi gets bullied by an even smaller player.

And then there’s Romario, whom I always create and whom I always give a Defensive Stat of 10. But because of his agility and pace, he is better than Gattuso at winning the ball.

There never seems to be any Logical Reason for who can man-handle who — We only have Stats for Stamina and Balance. But what’s Balance exactly?? It seems as though in PES Balance equals “Strength”.

It’s very Limiting in my opinion. Because you have players like Drogba with great Balance/Strength. But you also have players with great Shielding ability, like Riquelme and Valderrama — players who aren’t physically powerful, but still manage to protect the ball against bigger and stronger opponents.

Which brings me to yet another ability that has been greatly misunderstood, the “Diving” ability — Del Piero, Riquelme, Drogba, Ronaldinho, Luis Figo, Cristiano Ronaldo — regardless of whom is stronger or bigger, this players know how to Dive properly.

It shouldn’t be some arcade-like system which never seems to work, and which doesn’t seems to have any Stat supporting its effectiveness and use.

The Diving Concept is a great concept to implement into a Football Sim, but Konami has done it very poorly. I think that Diving should require only a Tap from One button, but only in a particular situation.

So that if you have a strong player who knows how to dive, you could choose to Dive or to Finish what you started. For example, you get pushed, the game offers a very clear hint of “you can dive know” and — depending on the players strength, you either go to the ground and win a free kick, or if the player is strong enough you could decide against diving.

This would establish some much needed differences between players like Del Piero and players like Drogba. Both get away with plenty of “dives”, but out of the two, Drogba is the one who can really carry on after getting pushed and shoved.

And by the same logic, players like Riquelme, although not necessarily staying on their feet, would still maintain possession. Because once he goes to ground, the referee should blow the whistle and award the free kick — didn’t go through with it, but effectively maintained possession.

Significant differences defined by Stats like “Strength/Balance” and “Shielding Technique”.

And besides establishing some important differences, we would also get rid of those annoying fouls.. the type of fouls where you don’t go to ground, where you could easily keep on playing -and- yet for some reason, the Ref decides to blow the whistle and stop the flow of play in the process.

It would be better if we got to decide whether we want to keep on with the play, or if we prefer having a free-kick.

Personally, I think this would make a huge difference for the better. Because I cannot count the amount of times when I could have easily ended up scoring a goal -and- yet, for some reason the Ref blows the whistle without giving me the option of finishing the play.

This was the same Flaw that ruined PES5, the flow of the play kept getting interrupted excessively. However, this was “fixed” after PES5, as PES6 (PS2 version) gave you that option of continuing with play or taking the free-kick.

I fail to understand why Konami hasn’t included that into the Next Gen PES09. They took the most annoying thing about PES5 and implemented that into a Next Gen game. It really puzzles me.

With this said, I’ll continue my rant later.. if I get the opportunity. But will say that PES09 isn’t bad, but it isn’t an improvement on PES6 or PES5.

Konami needs to elaborate on the things that made PES the best Football Sim on the market. One of the things they had going for them back then, was that PES offered the best variety of Stats, plus the Special Abilities.

PES09 is still using the same exact Stats and Special Abilities.. Maybe it’s time for Konami to change something that every fan would notice both on paper and during gameplay.

 

[dan80]

yeh i agree i dont think pes knows how to be a next gen game it just looks like a ps2 version but with improved graphics on player faces but they cant seem to stick with the good stuff they put in previous games i feel this game is plain it needs something excitng and i feel that fans know best and konami should look at this read what we feel and try to implement some basic stuff cause im playing on a next gen console with a old gen game stuff they could do is make the players look alive by having animations on there faces experssions having sweat on there face like in euro 2008 game by ea when it rained players hair was wet i dont care if we copy fifa. i remember what seabass said i like toput real things in the game that happan in real life so why dont he there is so much konami can do by putting just a little bit more effot in

 

[alkemy007]

My main gripes are the silly transfers in Become A Legend..players like Agbonlahor at Fulham..Andy Reid at AC Milan for christs sake!..players and teams should have a calibre rating so that players with a 5 star calibre are really unlikely to join a 2 star calibre team..unless at the end of there career. Plus players play til they are 39 in Become A Legend..I am in my 9th or 10th season at Spurs and have these players in my team..Rocha-39..Stalteri-39..Ferdinand-39..Bent-37...its ridiculous.

Also, why cant we do transfers in the English League. I dont think the Master league works with smaller teams. It is totally unrealistic to have a team like Stoke playing Barcelona one week and Inter the next..I know its a gameplay thing but I also think that the reason most people play the Master League is to be able to purchase players..If you could have this option in your league of choice I think Master League would lose its appeal...and with the introduction of the Champions League in the game it would make the league format more interesting if the season after getting into the top 4 you could play in the Champs League with some better quality of players.

 

[byondthought]

yeh i agree i dont think pes knows how to be a next gen game it just looks like a ps2 version but with improved graphics on player faces but they cant seem to stick with the good stuff they put in previous games i feel this game is plain it needs something excitng and i feel that fans know best and konami should look at this read what we feel and try to implement some basic stuff cause im playing on a next gen console with a old gen game stuff they could do is make the players look alive by having animations on there faces experssions having sweat on there face like in euro 2008 game by ea when it rained players hair was wet i dont care if we copy fifa. i remember what seabass said i like toput real things in the game that happan in real life so why dont he there is so much konami can do by putting just a little bit more effot in

mm, gone are the days where only improved graphics is expected from a new generation...

 

[shaun7]

I think that pes needs to look at the player stats and take better notce of them.
Some stats aren't really useful. I want that to change.

 

[wilsybill]

I'm liking the idea of players playing more individually and stats having more of an impact on the game. PES 5 for me was good at this. It didn't just favour the fast players - the big strong players were just as important to the team. This would be fairly easy to programme if KONAMI catagorised players before stats were assigned. e.g. for strikers you could have 4 caragories = target man (like K. Davies of Bolton - not really quick but strong, physical ang good in the air), goal poacher (Michael Owen - fast over 10 yards, not particularly strong but good finishing and accurate shooting) Centre Forward (Like Drogba - strong like the target man but more skillfull and better finisher) Then finally a SS/playmaker (like Rooney or Arsharvin - skillful and accurate passers of the ball). Once players were catagorised then the stats could be applied to make players more individual within that catagory. So Drogba and Berbatov would both be catagorised as Centre Forwards but Drogba would have better strength an physical stats but Berbatov would perhaps be better skilled and be a slightly better finisher? KONAMI could also catagorise midfielders and defenders etc too. Midfield ball winners (like that little French guy who's name I forgot who played for Chelsea) then you'd have the midfield engines - box to box players like Gerrard and Lampard.

It would be fairly easy to programme and it would ensure that players who in real life don't dribble and are quite slow, don't outpace your quickest defenders and dribble around half your team before scoring! As Ricardo Fuller did against my Man Utd team in a friendly.

 

[dan80]

I'm liking the idea of players playing more individually and stats having more of an impact on the game. PES 5 for me was good at this. It didn't just favour the fast players - the big strong players were just as important to the team. This would be fairly easy to programme if KONAMI catagorised players before stats were assigned. e.g. for strikers you could have 4 caragories = target man (like K. Davies of Bolton - not really quick but strong, physical ang good in the air), goal poacher (Michael Owen - fast over 10 yards, not particularly strong but good finishing and accurate shooting) Centre Forward (Like Drogba - strong like the target man but more skillfull and better finisher) Then finally a SS/playmaker (like Rooney or Arsharvin - skillful and accurate passers of the ball). Once players were catagorised then the stats could be applied to make players more individual within that catagory. So Drogba and Berbatov would both be catagorised as Centre Forwards but Drogba would have better strength an physical stats but Berbatov would perhaps be better skilled and be a slightly better finisher? KONAMI could also catagorise midfielders and defenders etc too. Midfield ball winners (like that little French guy who's name I forgot who played for Chelsea) then you'd have the midfield engines - box to box players like Gerrard and Lampard.

It would be fairly easy to programme and it would ensure that players who in real life don't dribble and are quite slow, don't outpace your quickest defenders and dribble around half your team before scoring! As Ricardo Fuller did against my Man Utd team in a friendly.

i agree in pes 5 players felt like individuals they had there own style of running some players had realistic stats u couldnt just run past a player with anyone it took someone special its kind of like that in pes 2009 again but it still aint the same

 

[jenicek68]

Why do you care about people saying good things about FIFA..???

if fifa has something good that pes can adopt i want to hear it...we are not at war, get over it !!

i want the best possible FOOTBALL game, if people have good ideas i dont care where they take them from, even if they were to take them from a TENNIS game ffs...

It isn´t what i ment.. If it is constructive (they got this in fifa and they shoul put that in PES), then its fine..

But look at "Why i hate PES" or "to konami"..

 

[byondthought]

It isn´t what i ment.. If it is constructive (they got this in fifa and they shoul put that in PES), then its fine..

But look at "Why i hate PES" or "to konami"..

Yawn....

 

[Amateur]

I'm liking the idea of players playing more individually and stats having more of an impact on the game. PES 5 for me was good at this. It didn't just favour the fast players - the big strong players were just as important to the team.

This would be fairly easy to programme if KONAMI catagorised players before stats were assigned. e.g. for strikers you could have 4 caragories = target man (like K. Davies of Bolton - not really quick but strong, physical ang good in the air), goal poacher (Michael Owen - fast over 10 yards, not particularly strong but good finishing and accurate shooting) Centre Forward (Like Drogba - strong like the target man but more skillfull and better finisher) Then finally a SS/playmaker (like Rooney or Arsharvin - skillful and accurate passers of the ball).

Once players were catagorised then the stats could be applied to make players more individual within that catagory. So Drogba and Berbatov would both be catagorised as Centre Forwards but Drogba would have better strength an physical stats but Berbatov would perhaps be better skilled and be a slightly better finisher?

KONAMI could also catagorise midfielders and defenders etc too. Midfield ball winners (like that little French guy who's name I forgot who played for Chelsea) then you'd have the midfield engines - box to box players like Gerrard and Lampard.

It would be fairly easy to programme and it would ensure that players who in real life don't dribble and are quite slow, don't outpace your quickest defenders and dribble around half your team before scoring! As Ricardo Fuller did against my Man Utd team in a friendly.

You touched on some important points there, I have experienced this and I have also experimented with it. Back in PES6 I used to create some teams with all the Players Perfect, and by perfect I mean all the Stats in 99 and all the Special Abilities.

And by playing against those "Perfect Teams" I didn't win most of my first matches, I eventually came up with the right formula -but- the Point is that teams with better players have too much of an advantage. We all know that in reality -- having world class Individuals doesn't translates into a world class Team.

The game lacks "Team Chemistry". I can basically play with whomever in the same team, and still come out winning. I can play Riquelme, Valderrama, and Zidane all in the same team -and- still end up winning with no problem. Which is completely Unrealistic.

Anyways, I completely agree about Categorizing players.. But maybe players should be categorized by Stats. And maybe we can have a good List for Animations and Dribbling Movements, so that each and every player feels unique.

I have a lot of ideas on my mind, but right now I don't have the time. I think you touched on a very important point, something that Konami has never managed to implement into any PES, and something that deserves good Thinking. I hope I can "eventually" come up with something.

And as for the "Team Chemistry" Concept, I have something that I think would take the game from "Old Gen" to "Next Gen". I'll post the whole (long) elaboration below.
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Now to the point I wanted to post this time, it’s about the “momentum shifts” in a Football Sim.

I’ve played PES for years now, and there’s Cheating in all of them. It’s like some games are “Scripted” to a certain extent.

Those “lucky” goals that the COM seems to score countless of times. Goals product of GK spills, free-kicks, corner kicks, and penalties.

And then there’s the Super-Com mode, a Mode in which the COM is always faster and stronger than you regardless of the distance. At times you can even slide with a perfect tackle, and for some reason, the ball takes an unnatural effect and falls right back at the COM’s feet.

This is when I notice a difference in momentum, when the COM suddenly becomes significantly faster and stronger than me, I know the momentum is against me.

I think the “momentum” Concept needs to improve, because it’s Limiting the development of the PES series. It’s one of the key flaws holding PES back.

The momentum changes regardless of Logical things such as possession or player Stats. There doesn’t seems to be any Reason for the sudden changes in momentum.

I think Konami haves to revolutionize their game in this aspect, they need to have an unbiased concept, so that they can have a Reason behind every AI-Controlled shift in momentum.

This will require New Concepts such as an in-game “Confidence Level Gauge”. And also New Stats such as “Mentality” and “Consistency”.

A system consisting of 2 Stats and a “Confidence Level Gauge”. Both Stats Dictating the “momentum shifts” on the pitch -via- the Confidence Level Gauge.

The Confidence Level Gauge, to Represent each player’s Confidence or Form throughout a Match. It could go from 1% to 99%. And it would Vary depending on the Mentality and Consistency stats of each individual.

And how will the "Confidence Level" dictate the "momentum shifts" in a game??

Simple, if a player haves a Low confidence level of 50% -- his Stats will go down significantly, for a given time during the game, or until he can get himself back into the game.

And by the same logic, if a player haves a particularly High confidence level -- his Stats would go Up for a given time.. this is when everything seems to go right for that player.

Everything from Stats to the happenings on the pitch would have an influence on the Confidence Level of each individual and team.

So that the “momentum” can be measured by an unbiased concept. Meaning that if we summed up each Individual’s Confidence Level, that would lead to the Team’s overall Confidence Level.

Meaning that the “shifts in momentum” would be in favor of the Team with the better Confidence Level, and against the team with the lower confidence level.

And considering that Football is a game of stringing a few passes together, building up play, and “eventually” coming up with the End Product.

We need to take into further consideration that variations are endless. Sometimes a Play consists of just 3 Passes, whereas other times a Play consists of 15 Passes.

We should also acknowledge that If a game has an average of 30 Plays per game between Both Teams, a Football Sim should have an average of 30 Shifts in Momentum per Match.

Meaning that each Play had a Distinct momentum. Maybe in one particular play the momentum was 70% against you.

The momentum could keep increasing steadily for one side, or it can twist and turn for the entire 90 minutes. Maybe in one play the momentum is 30% in your favor, and if you keep building up on that for the next 5 or 10 plays, the momentum would be 80% in your favor by the 11th play.

Which would result in your team being faster and more focused than your opponents, you’d have more “luck” than your opponents. The momentum would be on your side.

This would come hand-in-hand with the “Team Chemistry” concept. It would introduce “Team Chemistry” into the game.

Because if your Attacking Midfielder doesn’t gets the ball, his confidence level will go down -and- consequently his Stats will go Down.

A player with a Low Confidence Level will also have Lower quality for some plays, because his Stats will go down momentarily, or until he starts getting himself back into the game.

So if your Defensive Midfielder is having an off-night, his Stats will go down. And probably, if the Defensive Midfielder is having a bad game, your Attacking Midfielder won’t see much of the ball. Meaning that some of your Attacking players will depend on some of your Defensive players — This is “Team Chemistry”.

And Team Chemistry isn’t just about having a star-studded team, it’s about fitting talent appropriately and balanced. In many cases quality isn’t the most important factor, most titles are decided by the Team with the best Chemistry.

Maybe the “team chemistry” concept can have more to it, but this would be a great start in my opinion. As well as it would fix the random “momentum shifts” that have become an annoyance.

 

[CapnKill]

The teamwork stat is the "team chemistry" equivalent from what I can see. The PES Guide says that new players automatically take an invisible team work stat hit for the first 3 or 4 games when joining your club.

I also find that when I buy new talent and infuse them into the lineup that I struggle at first... I always do much better in the 2nd half of a ML season than the 1st half... I just feel like things "click" better the more the team plays with eachother.

IMO team chemistry is pretty visible and works pretty darn well in PES 2009, at least from the impresssions that I've gotten...