Amateur
Registered User
Bullshit. Mortal Kombat is a 2D game in a 2D setting. PES is a 2D game in a 3D setting. That fact alone, changes everything. Core principals cannot be the same.
In Mortal Kombat, you can see subtle movements before an attack and after an attack, where you have a split-second to attack or counter attack.
With PES, you don't have any of that attention to detail, you direct the left analog stick from south to north, the ball carrier automatically changes the direction of movement from south to north: it's fucking obvious, and incredibly flawed.
Tell me, if directing the left analog stick, determines a change in direction: then, which button determines *when* that change in direction takes place?
I ask that, because the analog buttons are not responsive buttons, and therefore, when directing the analog *without* the assistance of any other button is enough to determine a change in direction, there's no real CONSISTENT factor determining the actual timing of *when* that change in direction actually happens.
When you shot at goal: you direct the left analog stick + then you press the shooting button.
When you dribble? You just direct the left analog stick around + not touch any other button: the ball carrier starts moving across the pitch and also changes the direction of movement.
So which button determines *when* that change in direction takes place?
The unresponsive left analog stick? If so, you have a button that simultaneously determines both the *timing* of a change in direction, as well as the actual direction of movement: flawed and inconsistent.
Mortal Kombat is not ruined by such inconsistencies. One button determines direction. Another button determines timing. Simple. No button determines both timing and direction, which is why, you don't get any of the many inconsistencies that you will find in both PES13 and FIFA13.
Tell me, who determines the difference between, dribbling your way past a tackle, and loosing the ball to a tackle?
Tell me, who determines the difference between, winning possession of the ball via the perfect tackle, or the perfect tackle producing a free-kick against you?
Do you think that directing the left analog stick around, pressing the R2 button and R1 button at different times, is enough to determine such minuscule differences?
Bullshit. D-PAD control, on a 3D world, is not nearly close enough, to determine such level of precision and detail. Which is why the statistics need to end up doing, what the D-PAD cannot do: requires "skills" my ass, there's a reason why people complain about big teams -- because any noob can exploit a star player and win.
Anything else and it would be impossible to control with our hands? Why? Because you cannot visualize a video game where all of the stupid shit that you currently do is completely automatic?
FAN-BOY MENTALITY: "anything that is any different from what I have experienced, cannot possibly work because...."
Yes, what I propose is completely separate man and ball, which means that a simple 20 yard dribble would be extremely simple to pull off.
* Direct left analog stick + tap the dribbling control: dribble.
* Press the direction-change button + left analog stick: change of direction in terms of running (but not in terms of dribbling).
* Press the R1 sprint + with touching any other button: player runs towards a specified direction. Example, if ball carrier is running towards the north-east, and then pres the R1 sprint + no other button: the ball carrier continues running towards the north-east.
* Direct left analog stick + tap the dribbling button: dribbling. And simultaneously press the "power bar" R1 sprint: determines the speed of movement/running.
* No need to change the direction of running in order to dribble past a defender: you could use it if you want, but it would not be necessary, because the dribbling button would be precise enough for you to dribble past defender without having to change the running direction.
* No need to reduce speed. The game itself will automatically reduce speed as soon as the ball carrier is faced by a defender (though you could still loose the ball).
* No need to press the R2 in order to do any dribbling. No right analog stick gimmicks required to do any dribbling tricks.
Do you see anything particularly difficult about the proposed system? I don't.
A 20 yard dribble? What the fuck is that? A 20 yard succession of multiple dribbling moves + running, is possible. A 20 yard dribble? No player in the history of football has ever done that; you know why? Because it's not possible. There's no "20 yard dribble", you can link different dribbles in quick succession, and cover a distance of 20 yards of space by dribbling and running, but that cannot be described as a "20 yard dribble" because it's not just one dribble, it's a succession of multiple dribbles and feints.
By the way, a "20 yard dribble" is not fucking "simple", is it?
I'm not even saying that my way is the only way, I'm just saying that there are many better ways in which to simulate dribbling, than the fucking one dimensional D-PAD "run, run, run" shit dribbling that PES13 and FIFA13 are shamelessly milking in year 2013....
To me, it seems like you cannot visualize anything, anything, that isn't exactly what you have already seen for the past decade or so: essentially, fan-boy mentality.
Maybe for you, it is indeed too difficult to be forced into considering multiple factors in order to dribble past a defender, as opposed to the old and tested "pick up and play" formula where you can dribble past any defender without even noticing that you just dribbled past a defender (due to how fucking incredibly easy it is to dribble past defenders).
PES and FIFA are not sports games, PES and FIFA are pin ball games with nice aesthetic details. You disagree? Your opinion, the fact remains that PES and FIFA have absolutely no depth, in terms of the range of things that you can do with the ball, it's end to end "pin ball" bullshit, with zero midfield battles: non-negotiable fact.
Football, REAL FOOTBALL, is a lot like chess. That is why it makes a great deal of sense, to implement chess-like elements into PES, because real football indeed is a lot like chess.
Though of course, I should not expect you to comprehend what I mean when I say that "real football is a lot like chess", because you clearly are delusional enough to believe that PES actually resembles something close to real football.
Actually no, I have not gone "off mark" in any respect.
And actually, no, you cannot "know" that I have gone off mark, because it is blatantly obvious, that you do not actually know just what the fuck you're talking about.
This is more of your fan-boy type mentality, where instead of seeing the obvious validity of my claims, you assume that I cannot see the "practicality" of the system (even though the fact is that I've been playing video games for a very long time and do understand how PES works, which is not saying much if you understand just how simplistic PES actually is): fan-boy mentality, you attack the person who complains about the system, instead of acknowledging the fact that the system is indeed not up to date.
The fact is, you have no idea about the fuck you are talking about. You go on from "satellite brains" to "first person perspective" (what the fuck?)?
But I appreciate the fact that (at least) you've shown consistence in your posting, and also conviction in your (erroneous) reasoning, so I'm going to try to explain my point in a way that I think you might understand better....
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Tactical Controls,
* All the tactical controls, will only work when pressed and released before the receiver of the pass actually receives the ball.
* All the tactical controls, will work around a once time per pass, system. This means that only one tactical control button press will be needed per pass: you won't need to press three different tactical controls, at the same time. This also means that you have to wait until the ball is passed, again and again, in order to once again use another tactical control: one pass, one tactical button press, another pass, another tactical button press, until you manage to close in to the ball carrier, simple.
* Press 'x' before the receiver of the pass actually receives/touches the ball: when you think that the receiver of the pass will hold on to the ball for about at least 5 seconds before passing the ball....
* Press '□' before the receiver of the pass actually receives/touches the ball: when you think that the receiver of the pass will quickly pass the ball to another midfielder positioned in a central area of the pitch.
* Press 'Δ' before the receiver of the pass actually receives/touches the ball: when you think that the receiver of the pass will eventually pass the ball to any player positioned on the either flank of the pitch. This tactical control does not include the striker, so even if the striker was positioned in a flank area of the pitch, this feature would still not cover for a striker.
* Press 'o' before the receiver of the pass actually receives/touches the ball: when you think that the receiver of the pass, will send a long ball or any other type of pass to the striker, wherever the striker might be positioned....
* When playing with the ball, press the L2 button before the receiver of the pass receives/touches the ball: when you suspect that you have a high probability of loosing the ball..... By timing it correctly, it will be difficult for your opponent to steal the ball from you and then hit you on the counter. On the other hand, this feature would only work ONCE per possession, meaning that using it at the incorrect time/pass, would leave you vulnerable to a counter attack.
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The point of that RPG-Type tactical system, is not that you would play from a "first person perspective", but instead, that you would play from the same exact perspective that you currently use, but that unlike the current system, the effectiveness of the defensive (and offensive) off the ball movement, would be determined by how you read the game, as opposed to mindlessly directing the left analog stick without ever actually thinking.
In other words, the effectiveness of defensive (and offensive) off the ball movement, would be determined by your ability to predict the future; unlike the current system, which revolves around directing the left analog stick in order to *react* (as opposed to anticipate) to things that are already happening in accordance to a script that you have zero control of, therefore barely requiring any thought (or skill) whatsoever, since it's just senseless button smashing until you get close to the ball carrier.
Example: a noob who just wants to pass the ball to Cristiano Ronaldo, would need to break through the midfield.... this means that if he uses the very same identical pattern of passing time and time again, you will easily read him like a book by pressing the correct tactical buttons time and time again, therefore you would easily win the midfield battle, and your opponent would be forced into dribbling past you in order to break into the final third of the pitch; the problem would be, of course, that since your noob-opponent is getting his ass handed to him as far as the midfield battle is concerned, he won't be dribbling at you with Cristiano Ronaldo with the ball at his feet, but will instead be forced into using less dangerous players that will make it easier for you as a defender (or Cristiano Ronaldo would be forced into going down to the central midfield area in order to touch the ball, which would minimize his effect on more advanced areas of the pitch).
In other words, if you win the midfield battle, the computer will automatically close down the ball carrier (this already happens by the way, the only difference is that you have 0% control over how it plays out, added to the fact that no midfield battle ever takes place) and get you close enough to have a one vs one technical battle: this is where left analog stick input is necessary, in order to determine the direction of dribbling vs the direction of tackling.
How would you exploit that system? You can't. There may be some flaws here and there, but as a concept, the system would be impossible to exploit, because exploitation/repetition would mean that your opponent would easily read your play and as a consequence win the midfield battle, therefore making it impossible for anyone to take advantage of a cheap flaw that works every single time that you try it.
With the current system, passing the ball to Cristiano Ronaldo or to Lio Messi is as easy as sending the same exact long ground pass time and time again, every single time reaching the destination: no midfield battle required.
As a result, if you are a smaller team, there is really no way of defending yourself against the big teams, because the main thing that small teams do in real life, which is trying to win the midfield battle to the best of their ability in an effort to minimize the influence of star players, is impossible to do in PES13 and FIFA13, because any simple pass will break through the entire fucking midfield and into the feet of a star player who is positioned in an advanced area of the pitch: hence the "Pin Ball" feel that both PES13 and FIFA13 have, because the ball travels from one end of the pitch to the other, at a ridiculously unrealistic pace, with virtually no midfield battle ever taking place.
With the system that I propose: how would you over-use star players without playing some proper football? The system itself would force you into playing realistically, as opposed to allowing you to exploit cheap "pin ball" flaws that work 90% of the time that you use them.
With the system that I propose, you cannot get away with playing predictable copy-paste football, because then you'd easily loose the midfield battle, therefore greatly minimizing the effect that your star players will have over the game.
With the system that I propose, it would be impossible not to have a midfield battle, therefore small teams would have an actual chance at winning against big teams (on a consistent basis).
When you have "manual" control over the direction of the defensive off the ball movement of just ONE INDIVIDUAL out of ten, it is impossible to have midfield battles, because the midfield battle as a concept is impossible to implement into a game with such massive limitations.
Can you explain to me, how having manual control over the defensive off the ball movement of just one player out of ten, is more important than having manual control over how the actual midfield battle plays out?
This is where we disagree, this is where you think I'm going "off mark", and this is where I think you're wrong.... For the most part, I think you are a massive fan-boy who cannot distance himself from D-PAD gameplay, enough, to actually objectively visualize something different.
The fact that you would not "manually" control the direction of defensive off the ball movement, does not necessarily mean that the actual game would become a "football manager" type of game, as you seem to think. As a matter of fact, the fact that you would have real analog control over the direction of dribbling as well as the direction of tackling, would make the game feel much more "organic" and less "on rails" than either PES13 or FIFA13.
You have the wrong impression about me, you think that I'm missing the point, you think that I have no understanding of practicality issues in video games, and honestly, you look like a fan-boy who cannot see past his beloved drug, because it is obvious that you still have not realized how the defensive off the ball system of both PES13 and FIFA13 actually works: you think there's any "practicality" about the defensive off the ball system of PES13?
At the end of the day, your argument falls flat on itself.... you are arguing about the "practicality" of a system that you cannot actually control.... the rest of your argument is just more of your fan-boy bullshit, where you pretend to refute a blatant fact with your opinion.
If you prefer to have manual control over the defensive off the ball movement of just one player out of ten: fair enough.... that type of game will always be out there, because it's "pick up and play", because it's based on PS2 era D-PAD mechanics, because it's cheap to make and still sells for the same price of any other state of the art video game, that's why that type of game will always be available.... and fair enough if you prefer that type of "pick up and play" video game, as all art is subjective at the end of the day, but you really should try to open your mind to the fact that there are other, different, ways of simulating football....
Just because you haven't visualized other potential ideas, doesn't mean that the people who have actually invested time into the subject, deserve to be laughed at or insulted, just because you are enough of a fan-boy to believe that PES is that perfect balance between realism and video game: fair enough if you think that, but your opinion in no way refutes nor ridicules a well documented fact.
At the end of the day, this is the last I will say on this matter. I think you should just pretend that I have no idea about what I'm talking about, dismiss everything I have said, and simply not waste your time on something that clearly doesn't interest you.
For my part, I think this is the last PES rant I will ever write on PESGaming, fan-based mentality means that anything that I have to say will be described as either "rubbish" or "hating", and I'm pretty convinced that I'm done wasting my time with that, actually, I think a lot of the blame is on me for assuming that the average person is just as geeky as myself, I mean geeky enough to actually invest time into part time game design conceptualizing, which is evidently not the case at all since a lot of people clearly don't understand/visualize what I mean.
I'm not saying that I'm more intelligent in any respect, just saying that I've probably invested more time into this subject, than the vast majority of people who view video games purely as an entertainment source, rather than a subject to discuss.
From now on I'll just reduce anything that I have to say to the "they just need to tweak this.... and it will be perfect...." pretentious bullshit. Indeed, gaming forums and long essay type arguments, do not mix well, and to be honest, it's perfectly understandable why.
In any case, thank you for the time that you've dedicate to this discussion, it was appreciated even though I think you failed to see my point. At least we tried.
