R2 close control, left stick movement, sprint, and then tricks - all determined by timing and the skill of the human atacker and defender.
All determined by timing and skill? Really?
* Touching the R2 button whenever it is obvious that you should press the R2 button requires skill?
* Releasing the R1 sprint whenever it is obvious that you should release the sprint button requires skill?
* Pressing the cursor change button when it is obvious that you should do it requires skill?
* Left stick movement when you can only determine the direction of running (because it is in fact impossible to determine the direction of dribbling) requires skill?
My friend, we clearly have very different definitions for the term "skill". For me, the term "skill", is what you need in order to beat me at Mortal Kombat, but not something you'd need to beat me at PES13.
For me, the reality that I describe as "skill" is not present, in a video game, where any noob can pick Cristiano Ronaldo, get in front of me (press and hold the R2 button + direct the left analog stick around + release the R2 button + then suddenly press the R1 sprint + also a sudden change of direction via the left analog stick) when I know exactly what Cristiano Ronaldo is going to do before he even starts, and watch how Cristiano Ronaldo dribbles past me 80% of the time in spite of the perfect tackle that I execute every single time....
That's the reason why many experienced PES players do not like to play against Real Madrid nor any other big clubs, because the concept of the game is extremely simplistic, therefore making it very simple for any noob to find an OBVIOUS flaw and exploit it to no end.
That's not a video game that requires "skill", because the crucial factors that really determine whether or not Cristiano Ronaldo dribbles past you, are completely out of your control.
In other words, PES13 and FIFA13 are video games that use 2D mechanics on a 3D world, which means that in order for the system to function properly, your input as a player needs to be constantly undermined by statistics that work 100% automatically.
The reason why this happens, is because 2D mechanics are based on the D-PAD: the D-PAD does not offer any depth per direction (cannot be slightly nor dramatically directed towards any direction), which means that the D-PAD is never going to be technologically advanced enough to determine something as precise as the direction of dribbling or the direction of tackling.
And the way to work around that massive deficiency, is by simply allowing the statistics to do what the D-PAD cannot do. It was a cool system five years ago, but do you really want to play the same old stat-driven arcade game for the next five years?
Yes you hold the R2 button and direct the left analog stick around, but can you honestly say that it requires skill? Well I disagree.
Mortal Kombat,
* direct the D-PAD towards the south + then quickly (with the same momentum) direct the D-PAD towards the east + quickly tap the 'x' button: player executes a specific punch.
* direct the D-PAD towards the south + then quickly (with the same momentum) direct the D-PAD towards the east + quickly tap the 'o' button: player executes a specific kick.
PES,
* hold the R2 button + direct the left analog stick around + release the R2 button + suddenly press the sprint button: player executes the same exact copy-paste animations (slow R2 dribble, direction change, change in speed after releassing the R2 slow dribble to then suddenly press the R1 sprint button) time and time again, irrespective of how and when you press each respective button.
* you do not have a button for dribbling, you have a button for running. R2 is not dribbling, R2 is running slowly: big difference.
* Difference between running and dribbling? When dribbling, you can position the ball three feet in front of the outside of your right foot, five feet in front of the inside of your left foot: dribbling. When you are running, you can run towards the north, north-east, north-west, south, etc, but you cannot run towards the precise space (where only the ball can fit) that exists just about four feet in front of the inside of your left foot.
* Bottom line: the direction of running, when you are watching the pitch from the perspective of a TV spectator, is incredibly obvious, and does not require any real level of skill. I want to affect the direction of dribbling, the direction of standing tackles, I am tired of the old linear D-PAD design: run, run, run, R2 slow run, direct left analog stick around, R2, run, run, run, etc, bullshit. You never actually do any dribbling, you are always running, and running, and (what do yo know?) more fucking running.
Bottom line: dribbling consists of far much more individual factors than simply running, and therefore requires more skill. And here's the important fact: it is humanly impossible to affect both the direction of dribbling and the speed of running if both are 100% manual, because the control would be far too complicated for a human being.
Therefore, the footy sim genre needs to EVOLVE past the shackles of D-PAD mechanics, and in turn, prioritize by adding new features that require more skill, at the expense of old/current features that require absolutely no skill (as is proven by the fact that the most "winning" or "successful" players online are just noobs who like to exploit stats to no end).
Please do try to take note of the fact, that I'm not saying (nor suggesting) that dribbling should work in a specific way nor that tackling should work in a specific way (as there are many different approaches that could be implemented), but merely saying that the footy sim genre needs to evolve past the shackles of D-PAD mechanics.
Manually reducing speed (releasing the R1 sprint button so that the player stops running) and manually increasing speed (pressing the R1 button again so that the player increases speed) should not be as manual as it currently is, because when these factors are as manual as they currently are, other much more important factors are then impossible to implement into the game (due to lack of available buttons/space to implement new features).
The direction of dribbling, and the direction of the standing tackle, are both impossible to implement into either PES13 or FIFA13. Where dribbling consists of numerous factors, increasing or decreasing speed is an OBVIOUS and one dimensional procedure that requires little to no skill.
This is a video game, some things need to be about 100% or 80% scripted, in order to create space for new features that would take the genre to a whole new level. At the end of the day, it boils down to an extremely simple principle: prioritizing....
The direction of dribbling and tackling, is much more important than having manual control over increasing or decreasing speed. Hence why, manually reducing speed: get rid of it, make it about 80% scripted. That creates a lot of freedom (as well as space) to implement new dribbling features.
so we're not actually controlling anybody, the com is doing everything for us except we have buttons to tell them what they should? aka, taking away what makes this a playing game and not football manager numbers game
Friend, when you play PES13 (without the ball) you are not actually controlling a real aspect of the tactical game. Do you think that because you can direct the left analog stick in circles, and watch how a selected individual starts running in circles (without the ball), that you actually have control over the off the ball aspect of the game?
Bullshit.
Watch the midfield battle, watch the actual fucking game, it is 100% "on rails", and that's why you have "literal/manual" control over the direction of off the ball movement when defending, in order to hide or disguise the fact that the computer can, at any given time, tweak the movement of your center back (at a time when you are manually controlling a central midfielder) and leave you wide open: 100% on rails, you can have manual control over the off the ball movement of just one individual, but the other 9 individuals on the pitch, will do whatever the COM wants, at the end of the day, you actually have zero control over the tactical end of the game.
What we currently have with PES13 and FIFA13, is a system where you cannot actually determine neither the direction of dribbling nor the direction of tackling, a system where it is impossible to actually have midfield battles; but, when defending, if you direct the left analog stick in circles, you can watch how a player will literally move in circles....
That's not real control over the game: watch how the COM tweaks the off the ball movement of the strikers and the defenders, and tell me that you have a real level of control over the tactical end of the game?
Mistakes are a key aspect of real football, and as such, should also be a key aspect in football sim video games, but the way Konami simulates that aspect of the game is wrong, because as a player you have absolutely no control over it.
The only difference between PES13 and what I propose, is that I think that you (the user) should have control over the tactical end of the game, I think that if the center back (who is out of my "manual" control) leaves an obvious gap right in the middle of the defense, then it should be because I didn't pressed the correct button, rather than because the computer randomly decided that because the stats read a certain way that that particular defender should simply fuck up.
Ironically, in order to actually have control over the game, you cannot have "literal/manual" control over the direction of off the ball movement when defending: taking away what makes this a playing game and not football manager numbers game?
I ask you: how, exactly, is it, that by implementing a new system that allows you to have actual analog control over dribbling and tackling? That PES would become more of a "football manager" and less of a "proper video game"?
I mean, how is PES13, a game where simply double-tapping the 'x' button *without* directional input, will determine a standing tackle that is *magically* directed (seeing how it is impossible to actually determine the direction of the standing tackle) -- How exactly is that a "playing game" and not a "football manager numbers game"?
Please explain, because the more you argue your point the more I think that you have absolutely no idea about what you're talking about, to be completely honest with you.
How is 100% scripted dribbling and tackling, better than 100% manual dribbling and tackling? How is 100% scripted tactical game better than a 100% manual tactical game?
Why do you prefer to have directional-input in terms of defensive off the ball movement, at the expense of directional-input in terms of the standing tackle?
The way I see it, it is redundant to have manual directional-input in terms of defensive off the ball movement, because the computer still has control over the many many players (center backs included) that are completely out of your control.
And the bad thing about having manual directional-input in terms of defensive off the ball movement, is that it is effectively impossible to implement an analog-based standing tackle system. Why?
Because a system where a human being would be forced into having to simultaneously and independently determine both, the direction of defensive off the ball movement, as well as the direction of the standing tackle, would be unplayable, due to human beings not having enough fingers to determine every single independent element.
So considering that, I want to understand why you think, that having manual control over defensive off the ball movement at the expense of manual control in terms of tackling, is better than having manual control over tackling at the expense of manual control over the defensive off the ball movement?
I mean, I simply prefer to have control over standing tackles, because by having manual control over standing tackles, then it will be impossible for Cristiano Ronaldo to simply run straight through me just because the stats read "95 Dribbling Accuracy".
And don't get me wrong, Cristiano Ronaldo would still be much better than the average player, but the only difference is that the success-ratio of the stats would depend on your ability as a player, which clearly is not the with PES where every noob can simply mindlessly direct the left analog stick around and Cristiano Ronaldo will automatically dribble straight past any defender about 80% of the time.
Video games will always have limitations, so it always boils down to the priorities. With PES13 or FIFA13, we have absolutely no control over the tactical end of the game, and at the same time we also have absolutely no control over the technical end of the game.
What I propose is simply: RPG type controls to determine who wins the midfield/tactical battle. Analog directional-input in order to determine who wins the technical (dribbling vs tackling) battle.
I'm merely reducing the game to the essential elements, unlike PES13 and FIFA13, which are loaded with irrelevant gimmicks in order to hide the fact that you actually have no control over the important elements of the game: dribbling success-rate, the success-rate of the standing tackle, midfield battles, are mostly determined by stats, and are barely affected by your ability as a player.
But of course, for the vast majority of people, pressing the cursor change button, pressing the COM pressure button, directing the left analog sick in order to determine the direction of off the ball movement, pressing the R2 button, requires skills. I ask you, what is the thinking process underneath all that button bashing?
Not enough for noobs who don't understand the first thing about football, to not notice the blatantly evident flaws.
look above ^ this isnt football manager.
I am neither dumb nor gullible enough to not understand the difference between "football manager" and a more interactive (yet still highly scripted) system.
It seems to me like you are far too immersed in D-PAD games, to comprehend concepts that distance themselves from the shackles of D-PAD control. Football manager is one thing, what I propose is an entirely different thing.
To a great extent, I get the feeling that you are defending the D-PAD system, as opposed to expressing your honest opinion. In other words, fan-boy mentality, which is the reason why you have that black or white way of looking at things: either "football manager" or "PES", as if no other alternatives were possible.
Open your mind a little, you could have certain football manager-type elements implemented into an all-action video game, there's absolutely no need to be as black or white as you prefer to believe.
some of this stuff would be almost solved anyway with an actual indepth tactics board, with team shape and style, how they set up in possessiona nd out of possesion and individual player instructions. this is a huge part of what is missing from football games. its actually pretty laughable we cant give player instructions in this game.
If it was that easy to fix, why do you think that neither Konami nor EA Sports have fixed it?
It is a systematic flaw, it is not a flaw that exists because the game needs more stuff added to the core game, it is a flaw that exists because the core game cannot adapt to certain concepts, therefore making the implementation of certain concepts an impossibility.
The systematic or core flaw, is that the tactical game plays itself: this being a direct consequence of dated D-PAD mechanics.
Sure, it might look aesthetically more pleasing, if the attacking runs were more varied: no doubt. But at the end of the day (as you can see with FIFA12), it will do nothing to change the fact that the tactical game plays itself, therefore rendering you a passenger rather than a player, therefore requiring little to no skills from your part.
The only way to fix this fundamental flaw, is by making "midfield battles" manual, and in order to make "midfield battles" manual you need to change the whole foundation of the game: something, that neither Konami nor EA Sports, will do, because it costs more money but pays the same.
When you play PES13, you can easily reach the last third of the pitch by simply passing the ball around, you are never really contained by a tight midfield unit, you can always play "ping pong" football and reach the last third of the pitch by doing the exact same thing (no variety needed) over and over and over again.... because there's no method and no substance to how the game functions and flows.
You cannot fix that by simply adding more tactical gimmicks into the game, this flaw is a core systematic flaw, it can only be fixed by redefining the entire system.
again, look above ^ taking away player interaction and turning defense into some role-playing-turn based system is ridiculous
No..... Ridiculous is to refute a system that you haven't even heard about, therefore not knowing what the fuck it is, exactly, that you are refuting; therefore, looking like a blatant fool in the process.
Player interaction?
Tell me, what is this "player interaction" that you talk about? Watching how a noob can take Cristiano Ronaldo, abuse the speed of Cristiano Ronaldo, and effectively have Cristiano Ronaldo playing the Makelele Role in midfield, whilst at the same time scoring goals at the attacking end? That's what you call "player interaction"?
That's ridiculous. And you know why it happens? Because the "player interaction" revolves around "manually" determining the off the ball movement of any player that you select via the cursor change button, whilst at the same time watching the game from the perspective of a TV spectator: why even play football when all the players on the pitch, can see and move in accordance to satellite technology that is evidently implemented into their brains?
I for one, would not bother thinking at all, and would simply run into the space that I know I should run, because my satellite-technology brain is flawless and therefore there is absolutely no point to have a "midfield battle" when my brain is equipped to literally move in accordance to a fucking satellite map.
But I guess, manually determining the direction of off the ball movement when you can see the fucking pitch from end to end, is not ridiculous to you?
Oh well, that's your opinion I guess, but it still (in no way) changes the fact that "Football IQ" would be completely insignificant if all the players on the pitch were told (via satellite technology) where they need to be positioned: it kills the beauty of the game. And yes, PES is a video game, but why ruin it with stupid D-PAD features?
Essay long posts & Gaming forums don't mix
And since the "internet", "facebook", and "gaming forums", have clearly existed for over hundreds of years.... It is safe to say that essay long posts and gaming forums definitely do not mix: fact.
You know, you sound like the type of person who in the 1800s would have said something like "niggers and liberty do not mix". Perpetuating bullshit is not something I like to do, neither in gaming forums nor in any other place.
But, oh well, I guess people need to read "yes or no" responses because otherwise their attention span is rubbed the wrong way, apparently.
