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Definitive Guide to Perfection

Salk

Registered User
Definitive Guide to Perfection Version 1.05

Hello! I am gonna post a pretty long message here as a guide concerning the necessary steps to be taken to create the definitive (or almost) football simulation.

First a small prefaction: I am 31, italian and have been playing soccer to amatour levels. I have also played several soccer games starting from C=64 (rest in peace Commodore), through Amiga, Snes, Psx and more.

In this post, we will take Pro Evolution Soccer 4 as reference game but the tips can be seen as a guide to soccergame development.

1 - Gameplay

Absolutely the most important aspect of a soccer simulation. This is where we will concentrate our biggest efforts. Fifa licences, the graphic, the animations, the sound, the commentators and all the rest have their own level of importance (not the same).

But *everything* comes *after* gameplay. Highest gameplay is a requirement to create the definitive football experience. Despite the critics' reviews, gameplay in the PES series is not quite ideal. Here I come with some suggestions to tweak it:

There are many good things that don't need revisions of course but I will just point out what needs correction instead.

Let's start from the most important: THE CONTROLS.
The controls are too convoluted and not very adequate at present. The series evolves in numbers but the gameplay doesn't evolve accordingly (although some improvements came with PES 4). Konami has forgotten what kind of gameplay they achieved using only four (4) buttons (International Superstar Soccer Deluxe) and seems to also have forgotten the roots of their special gameplay care that made the ISS series so much appreciated by people like me (although they were not perfect, of course). Sensible Software for Amiga developed a game (Sensible Soccer) of astonishing playability using a *single* button. Microprose's Soccer for C=64 was another great remarkable title. That one too, of course, used one single button. Nonetheless, that is objectively too small a number for the perfect simulation...Konami and the rest on the market (with the positve exception of Sega's Virtua Striker) is instead using definitely too many.

Today we are also presented with too many combinations for too many (often useless) kinds of acrobacies/dribbling/feints. It's *mandatory* to go back to a simpler and more intuitive way of playing the game. Perhaps we should keep ISS 64 for N64 as control reference. It was released some years ago and I'd honour it with the Gold Medal of Control System (which is a good share of the Playability cake). There should be no simultaneous use of both Manual and Automatic controls. They are just hard to combine, are reduntant and our goal is to diminish the number of buttons/combinations to use.

I woud eliminate the digital pad as opition for controlling the players' movements. Let's focus only on the best viable option: the left analog pad (which is the only way to perform precise passing and shooting).

"X" - should be short pass like it is now. But not semi-automatic like it is. It should always be me choosing its direction! It's not always so unfortunately. The AI partially directs the passage according to certain automatisms. This can't let the player feel really free and in control. To be revised.

"O" has been a great improvement over the prequels! Finally it's possible to change wings and pass long balls without feeling like you have no control over its destination. A welcome improvement, thanks also to the gauge bar, which must certainly be kept for future releases. When the ball is in the air though, I'd adapt Konami Mayor A's idea of having "X" for low headers and "O" for high ones. PES 4 (like the prequels) instead makes use of a single button. Even for the long pass, it'd be necessary to implement a more manual control. Very simple: I face a direction, I keep the button pressed, the more it's pressed the further the ball flies towards THAT direction. The height of the ball would be automatically adjusted by the distance of the pass. Obviously the longer the pass, the higher the ball. This simple and highly effective concept eliminates all the needs of the so called "crosses". Crosses are nothing but long passes towards the goal area. They shouldn't need any specific instructions.

The :triangle: for the "through pass" doesn't need corrections but I'd (again from Mayor A) implement the double :triangle: for a in-air through pass. It's intuitive and painless.

Now the shooting ( :square: ): here there's quite much to say. Again, we need to go back to a simpler way to shoot. And all to be done with ONE single button. We should have the gauge bar that would *just like for the long pass* decide how high the shoot should be (for the pass, the height decides the distance). The power of the shot is a false problem. We take for granted that one player wants to shoot as hard as he can. Because shooting hard doesnt mean to shoot unprecisely. The two things are not correlated. After releasing the :square: button, we have then set direction (via Analog Pad) and height (how long we keep the button pressed). With R1 and L1 we should be able to give a limited effect to the ball (easiest, smartest, "older" method, not my invention...) by pressing them just after shooting. That's all about "normal" shooting. The only "special" shot I'd implement is the Chip Shot (ONE kind - we do not need two, thanks Konami). It'd be executed by tapping twice the :square: button. We would have a slower to fill and different coloured gauge bar appear (because it's a shot that demands special precision and timing) and of course no ball effect.

With this, we have covered all the basics! As you can see, we are using a total of six buttons and NO annoying button combinations! We have banished things like the One-Two on the ground, on the air, from the bench, with the fans by the signs or the Feign 1, Feign 2, Feign 3 or the Jump over the tackle, Dribble 1, Dribble 2, Dribble 3 etc. etc. This is because our aim and goal is to have an intuitive, simple and immediate control. This is because an intuitive control system is the base of an excellent gameplay.

Many of you have certainly noticed the lack of even one single "Dash" button. We didn't forget it. We want to take full advantage of the analog pad in this case. It'll be the only thing that might take a little while to Master. In short, the speed will be set by it and it only, keeping in consideration each player's personal Speed and Stamina (the idea of individual skills should also be much more limited to just Pass, Shoot, Defence, Speed, Stamina, Intelligence, Strenght - we may speak about these in another paragraph). The pace will be set by where the analog pad is placed (the outer, the faster of course). Abuse of fast pace would cause "energy" to be wasted. As consequence we would have the player's indivdual abilities go lower and lower (hence a reason to make substitutions!). All this will result in a more arcade-like experience. I know that many think of "arcade" as an insult. I take it as a great compliment instead. "Simulation" and "Arcade" are two aspects that can profitably live together.

I want to close this small Guide praising Konami for introducing a fixed control on a single player in a match since PES3 (I was told by a friend down there - didn't even notice! :) ). This is a real improvement on the Controls. If now they'd care to make me happy about the other lines too... :)


Here ends the first part of this guide. Every comment or suggestion is appreciated. Thanks!
 

cracky

Registered User
Do you work for a games company because you sound as tho you have thought about this alot, but well done......
 

wrigh2uk

Registered User
Perfection is always in the eye of the beholder so in affect no soccer game will be perfect for everyone
 

Nick Neville

Registered User
I think it's quite a harsh point of view. The game is still incredible once you have mastered the controls. Anything now would hae to be amazing to see a significant job. I could play it for another 10 years. It's a definitive classic!
 

netbulger

Registered User
Fair comment I say, there does tend to be a relience on buttons when the AI should be more intuitive, 1-2 passes for example, the AI should offer a team mate for the pass rather than a button combo dictating it. I would just have one stepover feint, and I would map this to the right analogue stick, flick it right to left, or vice-versa to achieve a stepover. I bit more intuitiveness with the controls would enable them to cross platform control pads easier.
 

Salk

Registered User
I have slightly updated my first draft regarding pacing. In reply to #2: Thanks for the compliments. I work for no games' company although I'd love to develop my own football game. I didn't even think too much of the lines I proposed as they seem extremely logical. In reply to #3: I know what you mean! There is no perfection (I never gave a 100% or 10 as score to any game I reviewed because there is *always* space for improving). But I feel like Konami has lost the will to aim for it. They now care more (like the fans ?) about investing money in Fifa licenses or official products and sponsors. In reply to #4: I may sound harsh with my position. But I have so much admired Konami's job in the past that I did feel like I had to "pull their ears". However, I didn't point out "the good stuff" (and there's plenty) in PES4 just because it's a critic and it speaks of what doesn't work. Like a very good reviewer said: "PES and Fifa series are more and more converging in such a way that soon there won't be difference in their development priorities and plans". And I do agree. Note: it's Konami tending more to Fifa than viceversa (unfortunately).
 

Salk

Registered User
In reply to #5: You got the point! Thanks! :) I have several more issues to present to you all,guys. I will "release" another part of the guide soon. Perhaps we can then send it to Konamy TYO! :)
 

ljungberg_08

Registered User
netbulger said:
I would just have one stepover feint, and I would map this to the right analogue stick, flick it right to left, or vice-versa to achieve a stepover.QUOTE]
you can do that already ?????????
 

Estill

Registered User
One word matey: Paragraphs. Thats all I've got to say about that moaner. Pro is perfection, or as close to it as possible, and I think the majority of players believe the controls are better now than they have ever been on a game.
 

yonson99

Registered User
Sorry, i have to disagree about the controls, though to be honest i stopped reading half way through....
having full analogue control over your passing is NOT a way to improve gameplay....it's one of those things that people always think 'that would be cool' (including me in the past), but in practice makes the gameplay far too fiddly and annoying....the secret to great gameplay with simplified controls is actually to make the computer do what you want to do when you want it to do it, so that it seems like you have absolute control, without actually giving you it. an example of this would in Legend of Zelda, where Link jumps automatically.
it's like when you cross the ball in PES...when you're on the wing and alongside the box, you press chip and it automatically crosses, rather than you having to point in to the box to try to cross to players who probably aren't on your screen.
i'll stop now.
i'll read the rest of the post later when i have time, if my judgement has been rash then i apologise.
 

phz114n

Registered User
i remember those old games using only one button (i still play gary lineker's superstar soccer on my sacred c64 :) ) and it is amazing what the developers managed to do with such limited input.

i get annoyed every time i play pes because the use of the analog stick is so limited. instead of just emulating the digital cross, they could've at least implemented 16 directions instead of the measly 8 they offer today. i would be shocked if they don't improve their analog support in the next installation. and if they hang on the the 8 directions, they could at least take in consideration the angle at which you're holding the stick when making an x-pass. at least a couple of times in every game i pass to the wrong player because of the digital cross-emulation. it is complicated to explain, but everyone who play with the analog stick know what i mean. more exact short-passing without having to use the manual pass-option, which is to slow and unpredictable to work in hectic situations.

the main reason i don't like the manual pass in the game is that you have to first aim, then press r3. in the heat of the game i always seem to press r3 first, then aim with the analog, then release the button causing my player to pass straight forward or something. it seems like a split-second, and it is, to aim before pushing the button, but it is so unnecessary.

however, i don't agree that simplicity is the way to the perfect football game. at least not by limiting the players options by removing available moves and other actions. it should be simple for new players to begin playing the game, but the controls must be so versatile and advanced that you are able to do if not all, most of the things you would be able to do in real football. arcade style football can be entertaining as well, but i prefer the advanced simulator in the long run (i prefer gran turismo in front of ridge racer, pes before fifa).

i find it so rewarding to see a situation coming up on the screen, instinctively thinking of what i would've done if that situation had occured in real football and then be able to do it and see it succeed (or not succeed, but on the basis that it was a wrong decision, not because i couldn't act the way i wanted to). this goes from anything from doing a simple pass to a teammate who comes from behind with speed to break through the defence, to performing a more advanced dribbling technique with the correct timing.

this inevitably leads to some more or less advanced button combinations, but in a way that makes it more realistic. it is not easy to do "the ronaldinho" in real life, so why should you be able to pull it of by a simple push of a button? more advanced techniques should be harder to pull off, that is my way off looking at it. the most powerful combos in a fighting game takes a crapload off button pushing and perfect timing, that makes it rewarding when you manage to pull them off at the right time. i'm not suggesting that you should have to input the equivalent of a ten-hit combo to perform the roulette, but it should require some skill.

simplicity is good, but combined with versatility it beats everything else. i'm still waiting for the game that lets me act exactly as i've intended all the time, the perfect simulator.
 

GO-GO-GOAL!

Registered User
Some of your ideas salk, are actually good and I would welcome them on future pes series. It would help if the controls are simplified because when new PES games are released and new moves are introduced, then it won't make the controls overly complicated. Dunno about the passing and crossing as their quite good already, but the heading would be good cause you'd be able to do it for defensive headers and offensive headers. imagine just using a glancing header to score a goal and know that it was you that did that and not partly the computer.
 

t1000v2.0

Registered User
Good post, however. I dont understand the talk of simplifying controls and single button stuff. Games have progressed a great deal over the years, and controls pads have been adapted for greater control over different aspects of gameplay and character control. This is not just in a football sim sense, but in general. I think the controls are quite good. Although they can do with tweaking some parts of it. I mean we have to remember that developers are constrained in many ways. There is alot to take into account. The argument of Digital V Reality, is a dificult one to win.

What we know as being a better more real way forward isnt always possible to implement. Don't get me wrong, we have come along way, making steady progress. I mean pes4 for is far more fluid, in terms of animation, greater depth and AI than in pes1, and other previous titles. The football sim can only go so far on the current platforms, and I feel we are nearing the peak. Not graphically cos pes can do alot better, but in terms of complex calculations that need to be processed which equates to every movement, control, frame of animation etc. In terms of the overall playability, PES4 is miles ahead of the competition, so we can still argue it is the best out there with regards to the competition.

Also back to the single button stuff i cannot agree with that, for shooting or anything else. I cannot see how we can take a backward step to go forward in this case. Shooting i think is something they have got right. Don't forget we have the shot feint too, and if you use the analogue stick for direction, you can place it alot better than with the d pad. I do agree that perhaps we need better use of the analogue controls.
 

Salk

Registered User
Thanks for your replies, people. I give some answers to you. Simpler controls obviously would limit the amount of actions that a player can perform. Perfect! What I say is that we don't need many of them already and I would just remove them to give a more "arcade" feeling, which, I repeat, doesn't oppose to "simulation".

#Estill: We are at the antipodes about what a soccer simulation should be. You be happy with today's control. If you are lucky, in the next releases there will be even more and you could let your players perhaps "taunt" the opponents by pushing furiously R3+some other button or perhaps let your player perform one more "new sexy thingie" (some would suggest elbow-smash to the face of the opponents) by pressing :circle:, :triangle: and :L2: :D . Please...spare me....

About the "one single button" issue: I fear I was not very clear (ref: t1000v2.0). Adding more functions DOES NOT MEAN improving a game!! In this case, REDUCING them IS an improvement! The fact to associate ONE function to ONE button would be an epic victory!

In order to do so a strong analog function is needed (phz114n is right - the R3 button is an insult to gameplay) to bring the controls to a "newer and more realistic" level, making at the same time the player really feel to have a full control over the direction of long passes and shots.

#phz114n: a soccer simulation does not need to exasperate realism in such a way that the player needs to think "Now I want to make Ronaldinho's special move...Let me see...I push R2+Square while at the same time I rotate 180 degrees the right analog Pad". Look at this: it's difficult and it's fairly complex to imitate a special move. Should I be happy ? It's just ridicolous! The realism we DO NEED is of all another level! We need realism in the AI behaviour to a different extent! Exemple: It should not be ME, keeping a button pressed, ordering a teammate to move on the wing to get a through pass. It should not be ME, keepping a button pressed, to have a team mate go pressing on the ball carrier. Such situations should be handled by the AI based on the intelligence of the soccer players (otherwise, what are all those individual attributes good for ???). The realism we need in control should strive to make the player send the ball wher he intends without too much computer assistance!! So LESS computer assistance for passing and shooting, MORE computer assistance in the team's actions---> we should keep control ONLY of the player we are at the moment moving and NOTHING ELSE. My dream: to make you play with ONLY ONE player the whole match. This would be realism. I remember Euro 96 by Gremlin which could allow such a wonderful option (even for two people controlling two players in the field).

I have updated my guide so that there is no more need of ANY button combination. Also I paraghraphed it as another user has suggested doing, thanks. Cheers!
 

GO-GO-GOAL!

Registered User
Salk said:
My dream: to make you play with ONLY ONE player the whole match. This would be realism. I remember Euro 96 by Gremlin which could allow such a wonderful option (even for two people controlling two players in the field).

I have updated my guide so that there is no more need of ANY button combination. Also I paraghraphed it as another user has suggested doing, thanks. Cheers!

You can do that since PES 3. and you can do that on mutiplayer so you have up to 8 people on the same team in fixed positions :)
 

Salk

Registered User
GO-GO-GOAL! said:
You can do that since PES 3. and you can do that on mutiplayer so you have up to 8 people on the same team in fixed positions :)

This is just great! But is it possible to do such thing on the PSX2 version of PES 4 ? :) That would really be wonderful although I'd satisfy with playing with just a friend here, at home, without using the Internet.
 

GO-GO-GOAL!

Registered User
Salk said:
This is just great! But is it possible to do such thing on the PSX2 version of PES 4 ? :) That would really be wonderful although I'd satisfy with playing with just a friend here, at home, without using the Internet.

sure it works on the PSX version of PES4!! Just use L1 when doing the cursor speed until it goes on fixed and voila! You then pick the player you wanna use (Including the goalkeeper!)
 

Salk

Registered User
GO-GO-GOAL! said:
sure it works on the PSX version of PES4!! Just use L1 when doing the cursor speed until it goes on fixed and voila! You then pick the player you wanna use (Including the goalkeeper!)

Wonderful! My congratulations to Konami (but I should date them back to the PES-3 period then) for implementing something *really* important! This is the way to go! ;)
 

GO-GO-GOAL!

Registered User
I almost forgot to say that you can buy the option to have a "player view" on 1 player matches when playing. you can get this from the PES shop :) quite weired to play with at first, but its ok :)
 
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