KONAMI player stats are so retarded, it hurts!

[Luisao82]

You're playing a game that looks like PES but isn't. There's no way to know how much of the code they've chosen to ignore and override with those patches, and I do play them myself from time to time.

What I wrote, is still true for the unmodded 1.02 version of the game. At least, from my experience. I also played the unmodded version, and I never felt that higher OVERALL RATING players where overrated in stats they shouldn't, over other players.

The biggest folly with PSD is their interpretation of "form", because a red arrow turn an average Joe into Lionel Messi for the duration of the match in this game. PSD gives 6,7 and 8's to 85% of their database, where konami has maybe ten players at 8 originally, and the vast majority at 5 and 6 (not exact numbers).

You got a point there, about the 'FORM' issue.
Soon, I'll bring this subject up there at PSD. Red arrows and to a lesser extent, orange arrows give super-strengths to players, and we (at PSD) are probably overrating FORM in PSD.
Prolly, someone has already raised this subject up but I'll just have to check it out anyway. This needs to be thoroughly discussed.

BTW, I wasn't trying to discuss Jenkey's Gameplay Patch.... I was just pointing out that I'm using it.

Some people take ratings to literal. Having a high overall doesn't make him over-rated, it's based on individual stats that a player becomes over rated, e.g. a slow player being much quicker, not a player rated 75 on FIFA being 82 on PES.

Exactly my point.


EDIT: [MENTION=170451]Sabatasso[/MENTION], when you have the feeling that AI players are somehow overpowered, it doesn't necessarily means that it is related to OVERALL RATINGS. Moreover, this is kind of 'cheat' to make AI harder to beat (though I personally don't see it as a CHEAT, because human players can adapt to this and counter it with some training), and it's extended to all AI players, not to the ones with higher OVERALL.

 

[Sabatasso]

The match engine checks overall ratings first and foremost, and then decides what level of stupidity its going to perform at. With average and low rated teams the "mind reading AI defender" thing basically never happens, on highly rated teams it does happen a lot.

Personally I don't give a fuck about Overall Ratings when I buy ML players, I check Form, Response, Explosive Power, Stamina and the odd positional relative abilities. Those four are all that really matters though...

The "weaker" squad you manage to scrape together of decent players, the better game experience you're gonna get. Players like Defoe and G. dos Santos who for some reason have very low Overall Rating, but are good players all the same.

It is a combination of Dynamic Game Balancing and a poor balancing of abilities in combination with form. Konami have themselves said that the difference between 94 and 95, 95 and 96 (and up) are twice the difference between 84 and 85. A red form arrow increases Attack, Defense, Balance, Stamina, Explosive Power, Response, Shot Power, Jump and Mentality by 12% and the rest of the abilities with the exception of passing speed by 9%.

As you know, ability soft cap is 99 in this game, and with form arrows it is 108. That means there a 14(x2) points of godly boost you can get in this game. You know yourself how great a player with 94 in an ability are with green form arrow, imagine him with red arrow. 94*1.12~105, 94*1.09~102.

94+(11x2)= effectively ~116
94+(8x2)= effectively ~110

A player with 8 form has red form arrows more often than not, do you see the problem?

Therefore it would be sensible to do either one of three things;
A. Lower ability ratings for most players, and use PSD form.
B. Use PSD abilities and use (PSD form -2)
C. Accept Konami's interpretation of a system they know far better than most of us.

I've already said this on the PSD board in 2009, but I was stapled as PSD hater and ignored. Clearly any criticism against these precious stats are not welcome. Especially stupid since most players are rated by PSD in their top form, or at least it looks like it.

 

[Luisao82]

The match engine checks overall ratings first and foremost, and then decides what level of stupidity its going to perform at. With average and low rated teams the "mind reading AI defender" thing basically never happens, on highly rated teams it does happen a lot.

What I'm trying to say is that, for instance, a player with higher OVERALL RATING won't necessarily have better RESPONSE than a player with a lower OVERALL, as you were trying to imply here:

So in effect, it does not matter whether you think the overall ratings are uninteresting, if you fill the game with PSD stats, most defenders will be "overrated" and the AI as a result gets an extreme boost in reaction, making the game more arcade-ish than it would otherwise be.

Therefore it would be sensible to do either one of three things;
A. Lower ability ratings for most players, and use PSD form.
B. Use PSD abilities and use (PSD form -2)
C. Accept Konami's interpretation of a system they know far better than most of us.

I've already said this on the PSD board in 2009, but I was stapled as PSD hater and ignored. Clearly any criticism against these precious stats are not welcome. Especially stupid since most players are rated by PSD in their top form, or at least it looks like it.

I was browsing for that subject (how and why CONDITION is rated the way it is) yesterday at PSD, and I found out that it was already analysed and discussed.
The problem is that KONAMI doesn't consider form arrows at all. They simply rate player's abilities without having the precaution of testing the effects of the CONDITION value on them.
The explanation for this, IMHO, is that the arrow system simply SUCK!
You give CONDITION 6 to a player, and he'll still play 40%-50% of the games on ORANGE arrow, which is stupid considering how the arrows system works.
You give 5-, and he'll play dozens of games in blue arrows and some in purple (which is the worst form arrow).

I still agree, though, that we should decrease CONDITION stats at PSD. The range between 5-6 to the more regular players, and 4-5 to the less regular would balance things better... or least worse!
RED and PURPLE arrows are one of the dumbest thing ever by KONAMI. They should eliminate them and revamp the whole arrows system.

 

[Sabatasso]

What I'm trying to say is that, for instance, a player with higher OVERALL RATING won't necessarily have better RESPONSE than a player with a lower OVERALL, as you were trying to imply here:

My point is that the match engine generally ignores the AI player abilities in general, and just look at the overall rating to make sure the human player gets opposition "suitable" to the strength of the AI team. Speed, Balance and Response seems to be completely ignored by the AI, and put at an inhumane level just to make the game challenging.

There are several situations that affect this in a different degree; Champions League matches and it gets harder and harder regardless of opposition. For instance you meet Barcelona in the group stages and beat them, but Galatasaray tear you a new arsehole in the semi finals. Your human player skill haven't changed since the Barca match, your team hasn't changed much at all but still Galatasaray appears to have a much better team than Barcelona for some reason.

This is Dynamic Game Balance...

With Konami stats it is bearable, but with PSD stats this kicks in more often as most teams have quite good overall rated players.

The higher overall rating you put in the database in general, the more often this Rubber Banding effect will ignore AI player characteristics and replace it with something the Dynamic Game Balance see fit according to the importance of the match you are playing.

THAT's why I want all players in general to be rated lower, and not higher than Konami's database. The higher difficulty setting you play at, the more intense the effects of the Rubber Banding gets.

My personal stance is generally that Konami underrates many lesser known players and overrates a few, PSD generally overrates lesser known players and are quite spot on with most stars, except form.

The Form Arrows should only affect Stamina, Tenacity and pure accuracy stats imo. Red Arrow +6%, Green Arrow 0% and Purple Arrow -6%.

 

[Martyninho]

PSD have downgraded their form now, the majority are rated between 3 and 6.

 

[Luisao82]

The higher overall rating you put in the database in general, the more often this Rubber Banding effect will ignore AI player characteristics and replace it with something the Dynamic Game Balance see fit according to the importance of the match you are playing.

Now you have explained it better.
But as I said before, this affects all AI players in the same way (regardless of their OVERALL RATINGS differences). The problem then, is that it becomes harder to defeat AI controlled teams, as in general, they'll become considerably overpowered.
But this isn't unbearable at all. You can train, adapt, and after sometime you'll have no difficulties coping with the so called Rubber Banding Effect.

Moreover, playing with KONAMI stats makes it too damn easy to beat the AI (whichever level you're playing), so quite frankly I do prefer PSD's effect on difficulty.

My personal stance is generally that Konami underrates many lesser known players and overrates a few, PSD generally overrates lesser known players and are quite spot on with most stars, except form.

Can I challenge you to go to PSD and express your views?
I'm saying this because PSD is a discussion forum. If you have different views then it would be nice if you express them. Constructive opinions are always welcomed there.
But bear in mind that one will probably have to confront guys who spend much of their time testing things in the game, so make sure you're ready to discuss with that kind of people before you go there.

The Form Arrows should only affect Stamina, Tenacity and pure accuracy stats imo. Red Arrow +6%, Green Arrow 0% and Purple Arrow -6%.

It could also affect stats like DEF, Teamwork, etc... but not exaggeratedly as in the current arrows system.
The biggest problem is actually the rate at which each form arrows affect abilities, not so much the fact that it affects them globally.

 

[cjackass]

I'm actually starting to trust Konami's stats more than the PSD's these days. As has been mentioned, they understand the games mechanics best. There'll always be the odd overrated player and plenty of lesser-known gems that slip through the net- but overall they do a good job.

They have to allow for the player's development through ML so that giving a player high ratings as default, they'll turn into monsters after a few seasons. I noticed on the demo that Bayern's team stats weren't as good as Man U and a fair bit worse than Juventus, some of their individual stats seemed low (Gomez, Muller, Kroos eg) but they actually play really well and I can imagine these young players will develop to realistic level. The player cards also have a big say in how effective a player will be.

I've noticed that full-backs tend to have above average overall ratings and CFs have lower than average- say 70+ would be a decent goalscorer.

The PSD is obviously a great source of info for editing and I still use it for boosting a player who is clearly underrated by Konami or isn't in the game. You have to give players lower stats for COND, REAC, curve, BB and Teamwork imo. There seems to be a minimum value that all players of certain positions have according to PSD and this leads to players being very samey and I would imagine the game being full of PSD stats would be a bit dull (imo). I think the teamwork is the most important stat in combo with a players ATT/DEF ability. It dictates AI players movement off the ball and positioning and if you believe PSD nearly every player has a rating of 75+.

 

[Luisao82]

I'm actually starting to trust Konami's stats more than the PSD's these days. As has been mentioned, they understand the games mechanics best. There'll always be the odd overrated player and plenty of lesser-known gems that slip through the net- but overall they do a good job.

They do understand game mechanics... what they don't understand is player's real abilities, or players specific strengths.
KONAMI's reasoning can be summarize like this:
"He scores a lot of goals. Give him 95 for SHOT ACCURACY."

It's like knowing how to calculate a formula, but having missing data. You'll end up 'fabricating' data, thus getting wrong results.
The crude example in the first post is one among several.

I'll never trust someone who fails to do a basic evaluation (like knowing if he's speedy or one of the slowest players around) on some relatively known players, even if they don't play in Man Utd or Barcelona.

They have to allow for the player's development through ML so that giving a player high ratings as default, they'll turn into monsters after a few seasons.

ML is another subject. And the problem is not with PSD stats. The problem is within the Development System in ML.
Players shouldn't develop so fast and so.... globally as they do in ML.

There seems to be a minimum value that all players of certain positions have according to PSD and this leads to players being very samey and I would imagine the game being full of PSD stats would be a bit dull (imo). I think the teamwork is the most important stat in combo with a players ATT/DEF ability. It dictates AI players movement off the ball and positioning and if you believe PSD nearly every player has a rating of 75+.

That's why PSD is planning a total revamp and overhaul.
But even so, PSD stats are still MUCH MORE REALISTIC than KONAMI's. There's no comparison whatsoever.

As for playing a game full of PSD stats being dull, it depends on the person's point of view.
For me it certainly isn't. On the contrary, the game becomes much more interesting.

 

[Sabatasso]

I don't have a problem with winning with PSD database, it just makes a poorer game. More arcade, less authentic... I am not an arcade soccer player, if I were I would play Fifa till death. Not that PES is much better lately, but you get my point.

I am always aiming at making the game better, and I've tried every possible way to do so. In the process I've noticed all those other and adverse effects certain changes have on the game engine.

Nothing of what I've said is "what I think", it is based on clear signs and changes I've seen as a part of experiments. I'm not claiming I am 100% correct, but I am 95% certain I am not far off from the truth either.

The best result I've had so far is with PSD database and -8% on all abilities, but giving every single player in the database 8 form.
That basically means that the players are more or less like they originally were with PSD stats every time they play with red arrow, which is most of the time.

The adverse effect is that star players are more likely to be benched than with original database, as the AI seem to favor red arrows and also that a player on green arrow will be fatigued very early in the game

For ML and BAL this last "modification" is perfect, as the "super AI" and "dumb friendly AI" rarely kicks in as the best players have only just above 80 overall rating. Exhibition matches are generally fairly free for Dynamic Game Balance, so the changes aren't really noticed there.

 

[Luisao82]

Never had that 'arcadey' feeling you're always talking about. I play the PC version.
Maybe we play in different consoles?!

Yes, AI players become more aggressive, more responsive, they even start to shoot better... but if you ask me, the original stats are the ones that empoverish the game. I prefer overpowered instead of weakened.
And then again, when playing against a human opponent, none of that happens.
Well, we'll come to the conclusion that it all comes down to personal preferences, so it's pointless to continue this discussion.

But regardless of any personal experiences, one fact remains: PSD stats are much more approximated to reality than KONAMI's.
And that's what matters the most to me.

People are free of course, to edit the stats to their taste. You did it, and I also do it all the time.
For instance, a couple of days ago I edited the .csv file (using MS Excel) so that the minimum value for CONDITION is set to 4, etc..

Like I said, PSD stats are far from perfect. But I totally prefer it as a starting point to my editing, instead of the retarded KONAMI stats.
If I used KONAMI's, I would have to modify almost 100% of the stats. Using PSD's, my work is 90% facilitated

 

[menaceuk]

Never had that 'arcadey' feeling you're always talking about. I play the PC version.
Maybe we play in different consoles?!

Yes, AI players become more aggressive, more responsive, they even start to shoot better... but if you ask me, the original stats are the ones that empoverish the game. I prefer overpowered instead of weakened.
And then again, when playing against a human opponent, none of that happens.
Well, we'll come to the conclusion that it all comes down to personal preferences, so it's pointless to continue this discussion.

But regardless of any personal experiences, one fact remains: PSD stats are much more approximated to reality than KONAMI's.
And that's what matters the most to me.

People are free of course, to edit the stats to their taste. You did it, and I also do it all the time.
For instance, a couple of days ago I edited the .csv file (using MS Excel) so that the minimum value for CONDITION is set to 4, etc..

Like I said, PSD stats are far from perfect. But I totally prefer it as a starting point to my editing, instead of the retarded KONAMI stats.
If I used KONAMI's, I would have to modify almost 100% of the stats. Using PSD's, my work is 90% facilitated

PC version of Fifa is worse by far.

 

[Sabatasso]

Never had that 'arcadey' feeling you're always talking about. I play the PC version.
Maybe we play in different consoles?!

Or maybe you just aren't bothered by it, and therefore doesn't notice it.
I play on PC, I burn PS3's and XBOX360's when I see them.

 

[Luisao82]

Or maybe you just aren't bothered by it, and therefore doesn't notice it.
I play on PC, I burn PS3's and XBOX360's when I see them.

What I notice, is that AI players become overpowered (more aggressive, more responsive, ...)
But that overpower is basically proportional. For instance: Jon Walters can't dribble paste thru my defence like Aguero does, etc.

The stupid overration happens in shooting. Most AI players become Van der Vaart all of a sudden, but even so, there are ways to prevent their goals.

KONAMI's stats makes the game too easy.
PSD's overpowers players.

One just have to choose what's better.

 

[Sabatasso]

I just don't think it's right that Stoke manage to pressure Barcelona for 90 minutes. I don't want difficulty to the point of stupidity, but that's my personal opinion and I respect any opposing views.

 

[Luisao82]

Yes, but it's stupid either way.
It's also stupid when you play Newcastle and you manage to trash Real Madrid 6-1, dominating the whole game.

Like I said, it's a matter of taste.

 

[Sabatasso]

I'd like a balance. Take ML, for example, once you start out you get a fairly easy 2-3 matches but from that point you need to start grinding out results regardless of your squad strength and to be frank I don't notice much difference whether it's Real Madrid or Oțelul Galați we're up against.

That is a slight exaggeration to make a point, of course. If you go into the player marking section in the tactics section before or during a match, and have form arrows visible when you do so, you can actually check opposition form arrows. My testing has confirmed that during competition modes like ML, the computer teams more or less ignore these arrows. They pick the starting eleven based on the form arrows, but it doesn't seem to affect their players negatively if they're playing with a blue arrow.

So, my point is that Real Madrid is more likely to sport a team with "healthy" form that Oțelul Galați, so the difference between those two teams should be huge when facing them. If the computer actually had to limit their game based on their players' limitations and form, you would usually meet a Oțelul Galați team that you would have a fairly easy game against, unless they got lucky with form. Same with Real Madrid, they would usually be hard as hell to play against, unless they got unlucky with form arrows.

It's at least how I see it... the AI is too stable at the same level, a little variation wouldn't kill the game in my opinion.

 

[Luisao82]

I agree. The way that Dynamic Balance thingie works is quite annoying.

If players have a huge gap (even if exaggerated) in terms of stats, it will be more realistic in terms of balance, but the game will be far easier.
If players have a more realistic gap, it will be less realistic in terms of balance, but the game will be considerably more challenging.

Hope KONAMI fix this. I really enjoy playing against the AI. :/

 

[the nameless]

Baines from England is overrated. absolutely crazy

I am sorry but that is the stupidest statement ever. Baines has been one of the stand out players of the past few seasons in the PL. That is a typical "he doesn't play for a top 5 team so he should be avarege" comment.

Anyway, the stupidest stat in PES is Messi form = 4. I know he is silly good already, but he is a clear 8 if anyone is.

 

[menaceuk]

I am sorry but that is the stupidest statement ever. Baines has been one of the stand out players of the past few seasons in the PL. That is a typical "he doesn't play for a top 5 team so he should be avarege" comment.

Anyway, the stupidest stat in PES is Messi form = 4. I know he is silly good already, but he is a clear 8 if anyone is.

Yeah, Baines is Quality. Fantastic attacking Full back with great ball delivery. I actually rate him higher attacking wise than Ashley Cole who generally gets all the plaudits

 

[Sabatasso]

Ashley Cole is absolutely pants offensively on his older days, but he's quite good defensively.