My solution for speed merchant

[MysteryMan]

We all know Speed Merchant is OP in PES 2011, so I been thinking about how to make it work out in 2012.
The problem with Speed Merchant seems to be that no matter what stats someone has ( speed/acceleration/agility/dribble speed ), the transition and the change in direction will occur more or less at the same inhuman speed for all players.
Agility might have some effect on it, tho to be honest I didn't notice much at all.
So with the way it seems to work we seem to have an OP skill card, whoever has it can change directions like superman no matter the stats they have.

Messi is the only player in the world that resembles that change of direction, tho perhaps even Messi does not change it quite as fast as in PES with speed merchant, but we can't say its not a close resemblence.

Anyhow my solution for this problem would be to make speed merchant dependant on agility/acceleration much more, so someone with 90/90 vs someone with 96/96 or someone with 80/80 vs 88/88 would be a huge difference.

Either that or leave speed merchant for Messi only lol, and change agility to actually matter alot more in changing direction ( but the animation of it needs to change aswell ), because lets be honest without speed merchant players change directions like they have 50kilo leg weights , honestly.. It takes like 2 seconds for them to transition from changing the direction 90 degrees to having control again.

Either way both of these things are annoying and very unrealistic, probably made by KONAMI to improve the defense and tune down the offence, too bad they fail because those skills u have that u can perform are OP anyway, they should have just made the defense smarter and better positioned.

Comment on my suggestion pls and if you have ur own idea write it down.

 

[abu97]

I think you should be able to activate speed merchant when press R2 when running as some players like ribery or robben don't use it all the time so there should be a button to activate it.
Also, elia and arshavin do really dribble like that - watch this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huS3EIl7YpE - Elia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxVhsbl2L7M - Arshavin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKepilrJQB4 -Robben
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwtg5qjoMY - Robben
I can give you hundreds more examples

 

[MysteryMan]

I think you should be able to activate speed merchant when press R2 when running as some players like ribery or robben don't use it all the time so there should be a button to activate it.
Also, elia and arshavin do really dribble like that - watch this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huS3EIl7YpE - Elia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxVhsbl2L7M - Arshavin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKepilrJQB4 -Robben
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwtg5qjoMY - Robben
I can give you hundreds more examples

You do realize the direction change in the Arshavin vid was like 20 degres right? Kinda different than 90 degres, try changing the direction for urself and see the difference in speed.

Also I never said others don't dribble like that, robben and a few others change directions pretty fast but not as fast as speed merchant in pes, its like u don't lose any speed at all from changing the direction.

 

[abu97]

Yeah, I have to say your right however if you use a speed merchant, it isn't always 90 degrees, it is sometimes 45 degrees - watch this please
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kixD8tZr--U
If you see carefully, he sometimes turns 90 degrees and sometimes 45 degrees
And when you mention arshavin turning 20 degrees, this is why i think there should be something like an R2 button that makes you turn like that because as you said arhavin doesn't always act like a speed merchant.

 

[soc160]

You can take isolated cases of anything, including players turning at speed, it happens sometimes a player will turn like that, generally shrter players but in the game its silly how easily its done, often when they dont have the space to do it...

 

[Sabatasso]

If you really want to, you can stop nearly dead, then start running again at a rather quick pace, In PES it's either limber as a cat or sluggish as a snail. There is no in between, but that's where most players really are.

 

[firestorm79]

simple solution - get rid of 'speed merchant' and make their dribbling entirely dependant on the stats. there's no reason why players like messi/ronaldo/ribery/robben etc should get a superhero power - their dribbling ability is based purely on their great technique and dribbling attirbutes.

I mean who in this game should have dribble accuracy 95 but no speed merchant?! and why should someone like tamada get speed merchant but not super high dribble stats? doesn't make sense...

the only cards that should remain should be the ones that are not reflected in the stats. such as the type of dribbling (shoulder feint/step over skill/roulette etc) and also one-touch passing/passer etc. also cards that affect the way the player behaves off the ball is fine (though I can't see any reason why you can't instruct a winger to do incisive running even if they don't have the card).

 

[abu97]

simple solution - get rid of 'speed merchant' and make their dribbling entirely dependant on the stats. there's no reason why players like messi/ronaldo/ribery/robben etc should get a superhero power - their dribbling ability is based purely on their great technique and dribbling attirbutes.

I mean who in this game should have dribble accuracy 95 but no speed merchant?! and why should someone like tamada get speed merchant but not super high dribble stats? doesn't make sense...

the only cards that should remain should be the ones that are not reflected in the stats. such as the type of dribbling (shoulder feint/step over skill/roulette etc) and also one-touch passing/passer etc. also cards that affect the way the player behaves off the ball is fine (though I can't see any reason why you can't instruct a winger to do incisive running even if they don't have the card).

If you can do high speed turns, it does really mean you have high dribbling stats - if you watch the ucl between madrid and barca, in the first leg villa always did those turns but the only problem was he didnt keep it close to himself so speed merchant doesnt need to be scraped, just tweaked in my opinion or to use a button to activate it. Anyway, adam bhatti, member of wenb, went on a playtest for pro evo and said speed merchant was still in

 

[firestorm79]

Anyway, adam bhatti, member of wenb, went on a playtest for pro evo and said speed merchant was still in

nooooooooooooooooooo!

I guess turning on/off would be the next best thing then...

 

[magoo]

use a button to activate it

Do you mean as in 'activate when a player with this skill is running with the ball' or as in 'activate in a pre-game menu'?

If it's the former then I'm with you on that; if an attacker is running full-tilt at a defender then the defender should be able to take the ball off them every time unless the attacker slows down to change direction, because even a turn of 45 degrees should be hard to pull off and maintain full speed.

 

[abu97]

I mean 'activate when a player with this skill is running with the ball'

 

[magoo]

I mean 'activate when a player with this skill is running with the ball'

This would add an extra layer of learning to the game which I always consider a good thing because it reduces yet further the 'button-mashing' elements and requires some thinking.

 

[abu97]

Yeah i agree and adds a 'depth' to the realism of the game as well as the freedom

 

[Sabatasso]

This would add an extra layer of learning to the game which I always consider a good thing because it reduces yet further the 'button-mashing' elements and requires some thinking.

I find myself constantly pressing two-three buttons plus an additional fucking stick all the time I play, so if we have to add yet another button to constantly press I think I'll get tendinitis pretty quick.

Having to press a bucketload of buttons does not automatically require "skill". Besides, games in general does not require any skill anyway, it requires reaction, a lot of spare time and a very nice girlfriend/wife if you have one...

In PES, the "skill" is in reading the game, and outsmarting your opponent. Not how much you can make Ronaldo look like a ballerina while dribbling. You don't need to play many online matches to figure out that 95% of the PES community are retards or toddlers, though. Cuz there ain't much strategy going on, just a load of dribbling and ofcourse quitting before second half begins.

 

[magoo]

Having to press a bucketload of buttons does not automatically require "skill". Besides, games in general does not require any skill anyway, it requires reaction, a lot of spare time and a very nice girlfriend/wife if you have one...

In PES, the "skill" is in reading the game, and outsmarting your opponent. Not how much you can make Ronaldo look like a ballerina while dribbling.

Good point Sabatasso, this often seems to divide some of the community to me, some believe you show your ability by "reading the game" (so Rooney could put PES in his machine for the first time and destroy any PES veteran), while others believe it's in spending the time to learn the "ballerina" moves.

I feel it should be a little of both.

I don't have much spare time to learn the "ballerina" stuff either, but sacrifice more game time than I should to try and get myself prepared to use these 'weapons'. I'd say if PES took the FIFA route - making tricks harder to pull off - then it may stop some of these "toddlers" you speak of from spoiling your matches.

If it was all about reading the game though, then there would be less challenge in each new game iteration because reading the game can only benefit us as far as the programmers know how to read the game: The programmers can't code the players to make runs that only Javier Hernandez can see. (if they don't have the vision to see the runs, they cannot code the players to make the runs)

My comment was more because I hate playing against people who grab Ronaldo and just run full speed and - when attacking to the right - cycle between pushing diagonal 'up right' then 'down right'. These are changes in angles which no human is capable of changing between without losing some running speed and this creates an area too vast to defend against. This also doesn't rely on their ability to read the game either.

 

[Sabatasso]

I just want a good game, I don't care if online matches are any good, though. I have enough friends to play multiplayer without an internet connection.

But some of the ideas that Amateur has forwarded would definitely improve the game, like changing direction without actually running forward, stationary dribbles and feints, stuff like that. Having a pacey player in PES is a blessing and a curse. Because you move so far in a short while, and the controller to player response is so bad, you end up running the ball straight over the line, or straight into a defender too much. A slower player does not do this so often, but you have to worry about dribbling the same guy 3-4 times, which is also bad.

Closing down opponent in this game hardly exist, both AI and human players go straight for physical pressure. But if you look at real football, the physical pressure only happen when a) the ball is loose b) the ball carrier is not in full control of the ball (i.e. moving aggressively towards goal) c) in the box

When a team is keeping possession around midfield and in defense, there are hardly ever any serious pressure going on, but rather defensive positioning and marking to limit the passing possibilities.

So as for cards, I don't want any cards that improve shooting or passing for example, because there are already a perfectly good way of separating the good ones from the bad ones already in the game. (1-99 Shot Accuracy, Technique and Power). I'd like to see cards like Diving, Knuckle Shot, special feints and that sort. Things we already have, although we already have a few pointless ones.

 

[abu97]

Yeah but that is one thing pes lacks - annimations.
When you say you should have the ability to turn without the ball, just look at fifa, after you score you have the freedom to celebrate and you are in completely in charge of the footballer when he runs on the pitch. This is why pes doenslt have that system, because animations are robotic and no player can move freely. Hopefully this will improve in a few years time

 

[magoo]

both AI and human players go straight for physical pressure. But if you look at real football, the physical pressure only happen when a) the ball is loose b) the ball carrier is not in full control of the ball

This is something that a solution still needs to be found for, I think Konami may make the game forgiving of excessive physical pressure - which in real life a ref would blow against - because new people would be put off if fouls were given every time they got aggressive.

So basically I think they've made it this way to pull in the FIFA lovers (FIFA is even worse at the whole physical pressure thing)

They need to find a way to benefit non-aggressive play in the same way that the manual passing benefits over a normal pass: You can put the ball exactly where you need to as opposed to a predictable place where the defending team can anticipate.

 

[shaun7]

^You're right, however I think that pes 11 with HIGHER RESPONSE TIMES and no catch up bug will actually solve the issues you mentioned (about physicality). And I practically agree. Physical power is overrated by some football watchers. I play 5 a sides, it may be different I know, but physicality is not as important when you've got the technique to avoid it.

 

[Daymos]

This speed issue (catch up bug) has been sorted for PES2012 so there is no need to worry about it and for the guy talking about controlling a player when you score as a way to point out smoothness in animations..

Its a pretty poor example..

Thats a coding issue that Konami has chosen not to impliment in their game. you could argue that you feel it should be there which is fair enough but this feature does not have any link to animation smoothness.