Amateur
Registered User
They say "New Season, All New Game" -- an ambitious statement, but one that doesn't holds enough weight.
I think Konami is genuinely working to improve, and this latest press release is proof of that. Their whole approach seems different, more serious and detailed, more ambitious. It sounds promising..
But when you do read it a few times, you get to notice that some "Key Improvements" are missing:
* No mention of "All-New Stats".
* No mention of "Completely reworked Passing".
* No mention of a "New Engine".
I don't want to be skeptical but.. improved Graphics, improved Movements, improved AI, etc, etc.. Haven't we heard that before??
All the "Evolutions" of PES have been the same: movements, graphics, one or two new animations, and tweaking and balancing the gameplay.
Everyone knows about the "fluid and addictive gameplay" of the Older PES versions.. But something many fans overlook is the fact that, in the PS2 days, PES was well ahead of FIFA in terms of STATS. The Substance those Stats provided was a key factor in The King's dominance.
Is it a good sign of progress?? The FACT that PES4 and PES09 have the same exact set of Stats and Special Abilities.. is this progress?
Pro Evolution was appealing because it was more Realistic and Challenging than FIFA, FIFA was labeled as the "arcade-game" and PES was labeled as the more "realistic simulation".
What happened??
Pro Evolution Soccer went from "The King" to "Arcade-Mess" in less than 3 years.
This can happen when you keep doing the same things for long enough.. the same so-called "evolutions" every year, this was not going to work forever.
We still have the same one-dimensional Stats.. Stats like "Dribbling Accuracy". Should a Single Stat such as "Dribbling Accuracy" cover for:
* Cutting the Ball.
* Step Overs.
* Shielding the Ball.
* Body Feints.
* First touch
* Flicking the Ball.
* 360ª Roulette and 180ª spins
* Nutmeg.
* Avoiding Tackles.
This are all different abilities/attributes and therefore should be Individual Stats. Why is Konami still using out of date Stats?
It gets Unrealistic whenever I see Leo Messi doing Step Overs like Cristiano Ronaldo. Or Carlos Tevez doing some Outrageous Roulette, which he probably has never done in real-life.
Riquelme not doing any of his trademark South American Dribbles with the Sole of the Foot.
It is plain and inaccurate to have everyone from Leo Messi to Cristiano Ronaldo to Riquelme -DRIBBLING- in the same exact identical fashion. It's unrealistic and disappointing.
We need to have more Specific Dribbling Stats that work differently in every different situation. For example:
Shielding the Ball - The higher this attribute the better the player will hold the ball when going at Slow Pace or when in the Middle of the pitch.
The “Shielding the Ball” STAT would define very fundamental differences.. players like Zinedine Zidane, Carlos Valderrama, and Juan Roman Riquelme would have a great “Shielding Ability” that allows them to hold the ball and maintain possession at a Slow Pace – A very unusual and difficult thing to do.
People who do not play Real Football cannot fully appreciate just how difficult it is to hold and maintain possession whilst going at a slow pace. Only a handful of players have that unique ability.
Players like Kaka and Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard cannot do that, they need to run in order to maintain possession. They don’t have the Technique required to maintain possession at a slow pace.
Some players are better at “Close Control Slow Dribbling” whereas other players are better at “High Speed Dribbling”. This Fundamental Aspect of Football is completely non-existent in PES09.
To this I can add obvious improvements, such as changing the Old "Shot Accuracy" Stat and make it more Realistic and Specific. Dividing it into Stats like:
* Long Range Shot.
* Close Range Shot.
* Chip Shot.
Taking the old "Shot Technique" Stat and elaborating on it:
* Shot Composure.
* Shot Technique.
Why??
Shot Technique would determine the actual shooting technique of an individual, if he can shot right after dribbling, if he can shot accurately at high speeds, etc, etc.. On the other hand "Shot Composure" would determine how the player shots the ball under pressure.
One "Shot Technique" Stat cannot be that specific.
Running Attributes??
You have players who are faster in Short Sprints and Small Spaces.. take Diego Maradona for example, and compare him with Thierry Henry.
Thierry Henry (in his prime) had great Acceleration and Top Speed, but he was never comfortable in small spaces, he was not that good in short explosive sprints. He never had that "explosive burst of acceleration" that The Brazilian Ronaldo had.
This is why I think that the game needs a New Stat to complement with the Older Ones. We only have "Top Speed", "Acceleration", and "Agility". Not good enough anymore.
There is the old "Acceleration" Stat that determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed. Why not elaborate on it and make it deeper and more realistic?
Like for example, include a Stat for determining an individual's "Explosiveness” when he goes from “Stationary to Running".
The more explosive the individual the better he'll be in short sprints, in small spaces, when changing pace, or when shifting from stationary to sprinting.
Meaning that once the player shifts a few gears the "Acceleration" Stat should then take over. But in the Lower Gears, or when "changing from stationary to sprinting" the "Explosiveness" Stat would be much more relevant.
In other words, when going at a Slow Pace the “Explosiveness” would be more important. And when going at a 70% sprint the “Acceleration” Stat is more important.
The old "Agility" Stat simply doesn't cut it in this respect, because agility really haves nothing to do with "explosiveness". There are plenty of world class players, who are agile and fast, but do not posses that same "burst of speed" when going from "stationary to moving".
An individual can be agile and fast, but if he doesn't haves that "explosiveness" he won't make the most out of that agility and pace. Or at least won't be as much of a threat as he would be if he was an explosive player.
Compare the Brazilian Ronaldo with Cristiano Ronaldo.. The Brazilian Ronaldo didn't seemed as "agile" or as "quick with his feet" as Cristiano Ronaldo -BUT- R9 had an "explosive burst of speed" that made him lethal.
You can make the same comparison between Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi.. both have good Pace and Agility, but Leo Messi haves "an explosive burst of acceleration" that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't haves.
Leo Messi doesn't necessarily haves a higher Top Speed, but he goes from 0 to 60 like a Ferrari.
Whereas on the other hand, Ronaldo haves more or less the same Top Speed, the same Agility, good Acceleration once he is going at a quick stride.. but he needs more Space and Time to develop that velocity. He cannot shift from a Stationary stance to a 100% sprint like Messi or Maradona.
Acceleration, Agility, and Top Speed are simply NOT enough to define such differences.
Passing Stats??
Short Pass Accuracy, Short Pass Speed, Long Pass Accuracy, Long Pass Speed.. it's just not good enough for a Next Gen Simulation.
How can I say that one player is better at "Short Ground Passes" whereas another individual is better at "Long Ground Passes"?? How can I have that with the current Passing Stats?
Why not improve it?
* Short Ground Pass.
* Long Ground Pass.
* Short Lobbed Pass.
* Long Lobbed Pass.
Still only 4 Stats, but better organized and more specific. Those 4 Stats would determine Accuracy. To this we add a Stat for "Through Ball Technique".
And the “Though Ball Technique” STAT dictates the kind of passes an individual can pull off. Which haves little to do with "Passing Speed or Accuracy" and more to do with "Vision". Not everyone haves the same Vision and Creativity as Riquelme, not even good Accurate Passers like Steven Gerrard and Pavel Nedved
Meaning that if an individual haves great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” -- he will give accurate but simple passes, fail-safe passes.. BUT no Riquelme-Fabregas-Type passes.
The accuracy remains intact, but not the freedom. A player with great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” would still have “great accuracy”. But his options would be limited, because he doesn’t haves the Vision required to make complicated passes. So it would be simple and limited, but safe and accurate.
There's a difference between "good passers of the ball" and "great passers of the ball". This is why players like Riquelme and Fabregas are so useful, because although they are Not fast, they can create something out of nothing with their brilliant vision.
Players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have complete freedom when Passing the ball, more options and possibilities when Passing the ball.. because they can basically pull off any type of pass. This would make players like Riquelme and Fabregas far more appreciated within the game.
Which is something that the current Passing Stats are definitely NOT doing properly.. for one thing, when I use Leo Messi I have a huge advantage because the guy can get past anyone with his great pace and dribbling.
But when I use Riquelme or Fabregas.. I just don’t feel any advantages, I do Not feel like I have more Passing Opportunities because Vision is non-existent, something that greatly diminishes the use of players like Fabregas and Riquelme.
What’s my point??
* Pro Evolution needs to effectively Evolve along with its fans, and beyond PES6 and PES5.
Konami needs to understand that a polished-up version of PES6 is not good enough anymore. Many of us customers have grown past that.
For one thing, I can say that PES6 was a great "PS2 game" with great "replay value". But after 2 to 3 years of playing it, I can see the flaws more noticeably after each play.. PES6 is not good enough anymore.
It lacks depth and substance, it needs more Stats and Concepts.. it was a great PS2 game, but would make an average Next Gen game.
With all this said..
The press release did had a couple of interesting quotes:
----------------------------------------------------
"PES 2010: New Season, All New Game"
"Major gameplay additions will make PES 2010 the most realistic football simulation available"
"PES 2010 focuses on being a real football simulation, as it requires both strategic play and quick reactions, as in real life"
"thus returning PES 2010 to its simulation roots"
---------------------------------------------------
Interesting quotes from Konami.. Konami needs to dump the whole arcade approach, and start building on the "Simulation Roots" of the good old versions of PES.
There seems to be a lot of focus on achieving the "most realistic football simulation available".
And..
I just find it odd that Konami has not mentioned anything about implementing "all-new stats into the game to better define player attributes and individualism, for a greater level of realism".
I think the "most realistic football simulation available" should come hand-in-hand with a Stat Revolution, to achieve a greater level of realism.
Restoring the good old simulation roots is not good enough anymore.. Konami needs to build on their old "simulation roots".
They say "New Season, All New Game" -- How is it an All New Game?? Because it haves couple of new animations and flicks here and there? Because of improved graphics and movements?
We have seen that before, it's always the same Type of Evolution with PES.. Why does Konami Refuses to Update their Foundations??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game -- are The STATS.
If the Stats remain the same, the differences between Individuals will remain the same.. and as a result Individuals and Teams will pretty much play like Identical Copies.
This is why Inter Milan, Barcelona, Manchester United -all- feel the same.. different uniforms and faces, but same exact Ability -- it gets Boring and Repetitive.
New Season, All New Game?? Or New Update, Same Foundation?
P.S - Anyone Agrees??
I think Konami is genuinely working to improve, and this latest press release is proof of that. Their whole approach seems different, more serious and detailed, more ambitious. It sounds promising..
But when you do read it a few times, you get to notice that some "Key Improvements" are missing:
* No mention of "All-New Stats".
* No mention of "Completely reworked Passing".
* No mention of a "New Engine".
I don't want to be skeptical but.. improved Graphics, improved Movements, improved AI, etc, etc.. Haven't we heard that before??
All the "Evolutions" of PES have been the same: movements, graphics, one or two new animations, and tweaking and balancing the gameplay.
Everyone knows about the "fluid and addictive gameplay" of the Older PES versions.. But something many fans overlook is the fact that, in the PS2 days, PES was well ahead of FIFA in terms of STATS. The Substance those Stats provided was a key factor in The King's dominance.
Is it a good sign of progress?? The FACT that PES4 and PES09 have the same exact set of Stats and Special Abilities.. is this progress?
Pro Evolution was appealing because it was more Realistic and Challenging than FIFA, FIFA was labeled as the "arcade-game" and PES was labeled as the more "realistic simulation".
What happened??
Pro Evolution Soccer went from "The King" to "Arcade-Mess" in less than 3 years.
This can happen when you keep doing the same things for long enough.. the same so-called "evolutions" every year, this was not going to work forever.
We still have the same one-dimensional Stats.. Stats like "Dribbling Accuracy". Should a Single Stat such as "Dribbling Accuracy" cover for:
* Cutting the Ball.
* Step Overs.
* Shielding the Ball.
* Body Feints.
* First touch
* Flicking the Ball.
* 360ª Roulette and 180ª spins
* Nutmeg.
* Avoiding Tackles.
This are all different abilities/attributes and therefore should be Individual Stats. Why is Konami still using out of date Stats?
It gets Unrealistic whenever I see Leo Messi doing Step Overs like Cristiano Ronaldo. Or Carlos Tevez doing some Outrageous Roulette, which he probably has never done in real-life.
Riquelme not doing any of his trademark South American Dribbles with the Sole of the Foot.
It is plain and inaccurate to have everyone from Leo Messi to Cristiano Ronaldo to Riquelme -DRIBBLING- in the same exact identical fashion. It's unrealistic and disappointing.
We need to have more Specific Dribbling Stats that work differently in every different situation. For example:
Shielding the Ball - The higher this attribute the better the player will hold the ball when going at Slow Pace or when in the Middle of the pitch.
The “Shielding the Ball” STAT would define very fundamental differences.. players like Zinedine Zidane, Carlos Valderrama, and Juan Roman Riquelme would have a great “Shielding Ability” that allows them to hold the ball and maintain possession at a Slow Pace – A very unusual and difficult thing to do.
People who do not play Real Football cannot fully appreciate just how difficult it is to hold and maintain possession whilst going at a slow pace. Only a handful of players have that unique ability.
Players like Kaka and Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard cannot do that, they need to run in order to maintain possession. They don’t have the Technique required to maintain possession at a slow pace.
Some players are better at “Close Control Slow Dribbling” whereas other players are better at “High Speed Dribbling”. This Fundamental Aspect of Football is completely non-existent in PES09.
To this I can add obvious improvements, such as changing the Old "Shot Accuracy" Stat and make it more Realistic and Specific. Dividing it into Stats like:
* Long Range Shot.
* Close Range Shot.
* Chip Shot.
Taking the old "Shot Technique" Stat and elaborating on it:
* Shot Composure.
* Shot Technique.
Why??
Shot Technique would determine the actual shooting technique of an individual, if he can shot right after dribbling, if he can shot accurately at high speeds, etc, etc.. On the other hand "Shot Composure" would determine how the player shots the ball under pressure.
One "Shot Technique" Stat cannot be that specific.
Running Attributes??
You have players who are faster in Short Sprints and Small Spaces.. take Diego Maradona for example, and compare him with Thierry Henry.
Thierry Henry (in his prime) had great Acceleration and Top Speed, but he was never comfortable in small spaces, he was not that good in short explosive sprints. He never had that "explosive burst of acceleration" that The Brazilian Ronaldo had.
This is why I think that the game needs a New Stat to complement with the Older Ones. We only have "Top Speed", "Acceleration", and "Agility". Not good enough anymore.
There is the old "Acceleration" Stat that determines how fast a player reaches his Top Speed. Why not elaborate on it and make it deeper and more realistic?
Like for example, include a Stat for determining an individual's "Explosiveness” when he goes from “Stationary to Running".
The more explosive the individual the better he'll be in short sprints, in small spaces, when changing pace, or when shifting from stationary to sprinting.
Meaning that once the player shifts a few gears the "Acceleration" Stat should then take over. But in the Lower Gears, or when "changing from stationary to sprinting" the "Explosiveness" Stat would be much more relevant.
In other words, when going at a Slow Pace the “Explosiveness” would be more important. And when going at a 70% sprint the “Acceleration” Stat is more important.
The old "Agility" Stat simply doesn't cut it in this respect, because agility really haves nothing to do with "explosiveness". There are plenty of world class players, who are agile and fast, but do not posses that same "burst of speed" when going from "stationary to moving".
An individual can be agile and fast, but if he doesn't haves that "explosiveness" he won't make the most out of that agility and pace. Or at least won't be as much of a threat as he would be if he was an explosive player.
Compare the Brazilian Ronaldo with Cristiano Ronaldo.. The Brazilian Ronaldo didn't seemed as "agile" or as "quick with his feet" as Cristiano Ronaldo -BUT- R9 had an "explosive burst of speed" that made him lethal.
You can make the same comparison between Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi.. both have good Pace and Agility, but Leo Messi haves "an explosive burst of acceleration" that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't haves.
Leo Messi doesn't necessarily haves a higher Top Speed, but he goes from 0 to 60 like a Ferrari.
Whereas on the other hand, Ronaldo haves more or less the same Top Speed, the same Agility, good Acceleration once he is going at a quick stride.. but he needs more Space and Time to develop that velocity. He cannot shift from a Stationary stance to a 100% sprint like Messi or Maradona.
Acceleration, Agility, and Top Speed are simply NOT enough to define such differences.
Passing Stats??
Short Pass Accuracy, Short Pass Speed, Long Pass Accuracy, Long Pass Speed.. it's just not good enough for a Next Gen Simulation.
How can I say that one player is better at "Short Ground Passes" whereas another individual is better at "Long Ground Passes"?? How can I have that with the current Passing Stats?
Why not improve it?
* Short Ground Pass.
* Long Ground Pass.
* Short Lobbed Pass.
* Long Lobbed Pass.
Still only 4 Stats, but better organized and more specific. Those 4 Stats would determine Accuracy. To this we add a Stat for "Through Ball Technique".
And the “Though Ball Technique” STAT dictates the kind of passes an individual can pull off. Which haves little to do with "Passing Speed or Accuracy" and more to do with "Vision". Not everyone haves the same Vision and Creativity as Riquelme, not even good Accurate Passers like Steven Gerrard and Pavel Nedved
Meaning that if an individual haves great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” -- he will give accurate but simple passes, fail-safe passes.. BUT no Riquelme-Fabregas-Type passes.
The accuracy remains intact, but not the freedom. A player with great “Passing Accuracy” but average “Through Ball Technique” would still have “great accuracy”. But his options would be limited, because he doesn’t haves the Vision required to make complicated passes. So it would be simple and limited, but safe and accurate.
There's a difference between "good passers of the ball" and "great passers of the ball". This is why players like Riquelme and Fabregas are so useful, because although they are Not fast, they can create something out of nothing with their brilliant vision.
Players like Riquelme and Fabregas should have complete freedom when Passing the ball, more options and possibilities when Passing the ball.. because they can basically pull off any type of pass. This would make players like Riquelme and Fabregas far more appreciated within the game.
Which is something that the current Passing Stats are definitely NOT doing properly.. for one thing, when I use Leo Messi I have a huge advantage because the guy can get past anyone with his great pace and dribbling.
But when I use Riquelme or Fabregas.. I just don’t feel any advantages, I do Not feel like I have more Passing Opportunities because Vision is non-existent, something that greatly diminishes the use of players like Fabregas and Riquelme.
What’s my point??
* Pro Evolution needs to effectively Evolve along with its fans, and beyond PES6 and PES5.
Konami needs to understand that a polished-up version of PES6 is not good enough anymore. Many of us customers have grown past that.
For one thing, I can say that PES6 was a great "PS2 game" with great "replay value". But after 2 to 3 years of playing it, I can see the flaws more noticeably after each play.. PES6 is not good enough anymore.
It lacks depth and substance, it needs more Stats and Concepts.. it was a great PS2 game, but would make an average Next Gen game.
With all this said..
The press release did had a couple of interesting quotes:
----------------------------------------------------
"PES 2010: New Season, All New Game"
"Major gameplay additions will make PES 2010 the most realistic football simulation available"
"PES 2010 focuses on being a real football simulation, as it requires both strategic play and quick reactions, as in real life"
"thus returning PES 2010 to its simulation roots"
---------------------------------------------------
Interesting quotes from Konami.. Konami needs to dump the whole arcade approach, and start building on the "Simulation Roots" of the good old versions of PES.
There seems to be a lot of focus on achieving the "most realistic football simulation available".
And..
I just find it odd that Konami has not mentioned anything about implementing "all-new stats into the game to better define player attributes and individualism, for a greater level of realism".
I think the "most realistic football simulation available" should come hand-in-hand with a Stat Revolution, to achieve a greater level of realism.
Restoring the good old simulation roots is not good enough anymore.. Konami needs to build on their old "simulation roots".
They say "New Season, All New Game" -- How is it an All New Game?? Because it haves couple of new animations and flicks here and there? Because of improved graphics and movements?
We have seen that before, it's always the same Type of Evolution with PES.. Why does Konami Refuses to Update their Foundations??
You can improve the movements, the passing, goalkeepers, you can improve just about every aspect in the game -BUT- in the end, the factor that establishes the Differences between the Individuals and Teams within the game -- are The STATS.
If the Stats remain the same, the differences between Individuals will remain the same.. and as a result Individuals and Teams will pretty much play like Identical Copies.
This is why Inter Milan, Barcelona, Manchester United -all- feel the same.. different uniforms and faces, but same exact Ability -- it gets Boring and Repetitive.
New Season, All New Game?? Or New Update, Same Foundation?
P.S - Anyone Agrees??
:no:
