Pro Evo 2012 vs FIFA 12
- Thread starter Gareth_84
- Start date
Hi OCKRASS....why would that statement in bold crack you up?
For me, PES resembles what you see on tv the most. Here are my reasons.
1) This is difficult to explain but probably the most important aspect which makes the games different. The defensive unit AI is almost real life to a tee. On the higher levels, sometimes attackers close down players and space and sometimes they don't. Players filter into defensive positions on PES depending on the situation where the ball is and where the players are. If you defend properly then although you will concede ground basically your defensive units will all be in tact and there will be bodies behind the ball. If Walcott has the ball on the wing charging at the full back on PES then behind that full back will be a raft of defenders positioning themselves accordingly doubling up and cutting down space.
On FIFA, the CPU, on the highest levels anyway try and work a position so that the attacker (say Rooney or Walcott) is one on one with your man. Then the only goal that they score over and over again is trying to get into a position at the corner of the eighteen yard box where the CPU due to programming and better reflexes than the human can skin you for a one on one with the keeper.
There is no defensive support dropping in behind, there is no cover, and nine times out of ten even though Walcott may be one on one with Carragher all Carraghers team mates are in front of him not behind him!
Now this is vital for me. When I play FIFA I'm literally screaming at my team mates to be better in defense and get behind the ball.
2) FIFA has soft spots all over the place. I was bored of PES last week after a marathon stint and so went to FIFA just to have a change of pace. My FIRST game back for over a week and I won 5-1 against Fulham (Top Player, 8 min halves). LOL, I mean wtf is that all about? Within a week I had worked out that the same moves can be done (like in all FIFA titles) to open up the defence. I was one-two-ing and finesse shotting the CPU to death. Do you know how many 5-1 games I've had in probably 200 games of PES? NONE! And yet I marmalised the CPU on FIFA first game. I don't want a game that I can BEAT THE CPU AI in a week. I want to still be learning new things at Christmas!
3) As touched by other members, player individuality. This is huge for me. When I have a shot right foot with Charlie Adam I want the shot to be shit and dribble 3 miles an hour. But when it's on his left foot I want a space rocket of a shot. That's what PES can give me. In that 5-1 I was talking about I scored some seriously dubious goals, a Charlie Adam right foot stunner, a Dirk Kuyt left foot driller etc etc, it doesn't matter. I can honestly hand on heart say that I have almost never used the tactics screen in FIFA, there's just no need to. I seriously cannot tell any difference between any of the players or any of the tactics.
I could go on but I've just got up and need a PES fix
There's things which annoy the hell out of me with PES too like
1) Keepers - simply not good enough KONAMI. I don't care what any PES fanboy thinks, we're in the 21st century now and this is just really shoddy work from them.
2) Increasingly this is pissing me off more - the rails factor. You know when your players just get looked into an animation or motion that they just cannot shake out of, it's really, really irritating me now.
For me this year, the AI is vital and all important. I want players reacting to situations attacking wise and defensively and that's what PES can give me that FIFA cannot. I also feel that in PES the CPU uses build up play for a purpose, whereas in FIFA the build up play is illusory (as if it's saying look at me, I'm a sim now that the CPU can pass the ball about). In FIFA I constantly get the feeling that the build up play is all scripted just as eye candy because of the complaints last year that the CPU went from front to back too quickly. The point is I am still waiting for the CPU to open me up using good football as opposed to engineering the constant one v one situations at the edge of my box.
Hi
There is no defensive support dropping in behind, there is no cover, and nine times out of ten even though Walcott may be one on one with Carragher all Carraghers team mates are in front of him not behind him!
Now this is vital for me. When I play FIFA I'm literally screaming at my team mates to be better in defense and get behind the ball.
2) FIFA has soft spots all over the place.
3) A I seriously cannot tell any difference between any of the players or any of the tactics.
I could go on but I've just got up and need a PES fix
I think you maybe you are just repeating stuff others have said in an effort to make fifa look bad. Here is proof of good defending on Fifa 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f15B8j3sck
Here is PES 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Fd5elWiR4
Err, one video is a video of selected defending clips from human v human, the other is a PES goals compilation!?! Am I missing something?!?
My point about FIFA is not necessarily regarding human v human, it's regarding CPU v human.
The contain function is next to useless to be frank at the higher levels, it's virtually pointless. These are my observations of the two.
PES- players look to attack you, you can curtail the move by using the holdup function which lets the player get in close to the CPU player without having to tackle. CPU build up play is there, but if you defend well you can stop the moves eventually and force the CPU into giving the ball away/losing possession.
FIFA - the build up play is ALL ILLUSORY. By that I feel that the build up play from the CPU is just there in code just to make it look like build up play and is very non-organic. It is ALL designed to get the CPU guy one on one with the defender at the corner of the box to initiate getting past the defender. The attackers in this game are way too responsive v the defender and the CPU (or EA) know this, it has been programmed this way. So on the higher difficulties it is just a case of the CPU being programmed to get into that one on one situation where you either stop them by a 50-50 challenge, or they skid by you.
It is the unresponsiveness of the defenders v the responsivness of the attackers that make people change the sliders in favour of the human to balance things out. I have played probably a 100 FIFA games now, and it's the same thing over and over. The CPU almost always score a one on one when they skin your last man, or they get a tap in from two yards after that said player passes to another CPU team mate inside the 6 yard box. THERE IS NO VARIATION IN GOALS FROM THE CPU because the CPU AI is just dull as dog shit in terms of being creative.
So what you have is a long series of chess moves in which you either have the patience of a nun whilst Burton Albion string together 100 consecutive passes, or you lapse somewhere along the line (normally on pass 143) and then the CPU has engineered that one on one situation, from here it's a lottery as to whether the CPU has scripted a goal or not. If you use contain, all you do is delay the inevitable because eventually the CPU will have worked its way into the box where a simple lateral pass will give the striker a shot at goal from 10 yards.
Now you can slag off keepers and animations and presentation etc etc on PES, and I'll be 100% with you. But the guts of the game, the engine and the AI, there is just no comparison I'm afraid. In FIFA I'm yet to be undone with a great CPU move, and say 'fk me, where did that come from. that was good?', in PES it happens frequently. That's because essentially the AI is just so much better in PES. I can also score (on World Class or Legendary) pretty much at will now once you get into certain soft spot areas, like the attacker at their edge of the eighteen yard box doing a circle on himself and bamboozling the CPU defender, then you simply just finesse your way to a finish. It literally took me a day or so to suss FIFA out. PES is a different kettle of fish, I'm still learning strong after having caned both demos and played this game non-stop since release.
shaun7
Registered User
A plain and simple point.
fifa 12's AI sucks so bad that it makes fifa 11's bad AI look better.
Seriously, I cannot find words to describe the aweful AI of fifa 12.
In pes however, I cannot stand the fact that the defenders cannot really make pressure and so they back out. I totally hate it because there's no midfield pressure.
But fifa's midfield pressure is a joke aswell because it's just an illusion.
Both pes and Fifa are unbalanced this year, but I feel that although pes might look more unbalanced, IT IS actually more balanced than fifa in the long run.
In fifa, there's no real build up, the CPU AI just intercept like crazy and make crazy turns left and right with his superhuman dribbles. Not to mention the stupid tackling system that doesn't work well. It works when the game wants and there's no timing involved.
Oh and the obvious spots in the pitch where a standing tackle never works, regardless of the players on the pitch.
Ever wonder why the AI always plays the same game?
Going from the wing, either crossing the ball (which will result in a header on goal, because the CPU will hit 99.9% of air balls no matter how well you time your jump) or the AI may also try to dribble from the wing and suddenly become unstoppable, like no tackle would work. You know why that happens?
Because in fifa 12, there's a spot in the pitch, near the side of the goal that if you do not have any midfielder pressuring you and you're against the defenders only, you go from the wing, make a 90 degree turn so that the player will favour his foot, and then you can just run into the middle without ever being tackled. THIS BS makes me sick. The AI takes advantage of this glitch all the time and it makes me sick to death.
So all in all, fifa 12 is the most overrated game in the history of gaming because although it made steps forward from fifa 11, the game is riddled with bugs and glitches that are easy to exploit and the AI is atrocious. Not to mention the lack of individuality and lack of creative play.
Pes 12 on the other hand had an idea of how it would play, but failed to execute it PROPERLY thus making these bad things seem really bad and annoying.
fifa 12's AI sucks so bad that it makes fifa 11's bad AI look better.
Seriously, I cannot find words to describe the aweful AI of fifa 12.
In pes however, I cannot stand the fact that the defenders cannot really make pressure and so they back out. I totally hate it because there's no midfield pressure.
But fifa's midfield pressure is a joke aswell because it's just an illusion.
Both pes and Fifa are unbalanced this year, but I feel that although pes might look more unbalanced, IT IS actually more balanced than fifa in the long run.
In fifa, there's no real build up, the CPU AI just intercept like crazy and make crazy turns left and right with his superhuman dribbles. Not to mention the stupid tackling system that doesn't work well. It works when the game wants and there's no timing involved.
Oh and the obvious spots in the pitch where a standing tackle never works, regardless of the players on the pitch.
Ever wonder why the AI always plays the same game?
Going from the wing, either crossing the ball (which will result in a header on goal, because the CPU will hit 99.9% of air balls no matter how well you time your jump) or the AI may also try to dribble from the wing and suddenly become unstoppable, like no tackle would work. You know why that happens?
Because in fifa 12, there's a spot in the pitch, near the side of the goal that if you do not have any midfielder pressuring you and you're against the defenders only, you go from the wing, make a 90 degree turn so that the player will favour his foot, and then you can just run into the middle without ever being tackled. THIS BS makes me sick. The AI takes advantage of this glitch all the time and it makes me sick to death.
So all in all, fifa 12 is the most overrated game in the history of gaming because although it made steps forward from fifa 11, the game is riddled with bugs and glitches that are easy to exploit and the AI is atrocious. Not to mention the lack of individuality and lack of creative play.
Pes 12 on the other hand had an idea of how it would play, but failed to execute it PROPERLY thus making these bad things seem really bad and annoying.
Shaun do you PES post or pre patch? I agree totally that post patch you cannot put any midfield pressure on opposition teams because the CPU will just laser guide balls from A to B to C, therefore negating three or four of your players pressurising. So you HAVE to play a contain game in post patch. HOWEVER, pre patch is a different kettle of fish. I had a game v Chelsea yesterday where that's all it was was a midfield scrap, you can pressure high up the pitch because the sliders for both you and the CPU work and you can manually move your players into attacking pressurising positions to stem attacks high up the pitch; this simply isn't possible post patch because the sliders are fking useless, because the game both for you and the CPU is designed to have both sets of teams drop back, therefore the only way to defend in post patch is to drop and contain.
The problem with pre-patch as some say is the goalies, although I have to admit that I don't see that many blunders anymore with my combination of settings now and my defensive technique. Pre-patch you can also make the opposition lose the ball high up the pitch, it really is the better of the two patches. The fact that you can get penalised by better teams from pressing is neither here nor there, the fact is you have the option pre-patch to defend as you wish, either containment and drop, or pressure and high up.
In FIFA it doesn't really matter, I really am lost for words how any FOOTBALL fan can't see through this game. You have a contain function which puts five yards between you and the CPU, and the responsiveness in certain areas of the pitch as you quite rightly said means that the CPU get to that point on the pitch for cheap tactics. I've yet to see the CPU cut me open with a crafted move, or lovely bit of natural skill (apart from the Tevez skinning Carragher one on one corner of the eighteen box shit lol).
It's taken a while after the dust has settled and the jubilation has died down, but many people (finally) on the EA forums are seeing the game for what it is; cheap programming, cheap tactics, illusion based game. It's even more blatantly scripted than PES because you can feel the CPU kick in after you've stemmed them for so long. It's like the game says, fk this you've defended brilliantly against me for so long and stagnated my every chess move after nearly 1000 passes, shove this up your jacksey, and then Burton Albion get a speed surge, get one on one, leave Carragher on his arse because apparently defenders are shit unless they have speed 99 and response 99 and strength 99, and score a lovely crafted CPU one on one. It makes me smile....for a second...then I want to snap the disc.
The AI is really quite poor in FIFA games.
I believe that EA must be focusing more on human vs human, as the offline CPU modes are next to pointless.
The AI in pes, especially 12, is so much better and yes more realistic.
I think part of the difference in opinions is how you play and what mode.
I can play round the faults in pes better than the faults with fifa. Plus I mainly play against the cpu, where PES is undoubtably the better game, IMO. Ive always bought both, although I haven't bought FIFA12 yet, and Pes always ends up getting a lot more game time.
Even against humans I find FIFA too annoying to play for long. There is obvious scripting where its trying to manufacture a win, lose, win, lose etc pattern. I played numerous rematches with a friend online and it was blatant that it was either being made easier or harder to attempt to share the wins out. I find the cursor change on FIFA worse than the one on PES. Constant one on ones, players running through defences, too much space. I know 12 has a different defensive system, but previously the much fabled jostling system meant tackling was more akin to rugby. Barge someone off the ball from behind as a tackling method. How is that football? Even against a human opponent FIFA feels ultimately quite boring and empty.
Whats disappointed me more than PES's fall from grace and failure to adapt to next gen machines, is the complete overhyping of FIFA. EA went from making poor football games on the PS2, to average ones on the PS3. PES has gone from making good to very good games on the PS2 to average ones on the PS3. Possibly the difference in review scores could be down to FIFA's ability to impress out the box and feel like it promises more, but fails to deliver. PES is more of a slow burner. Its stand out feature over FIFA is the AI, and thats harder to appreciate in a short term review. FIFA, for me, will keep falling down until its AI comes anywhere near to matching its other features.
Im enjoying PES at the moment. Whether I'm playing it in 2 months plus will be the test of it regaining its mojo.
I believe that EA must be focusing more on human vs human, as the offline CPU modes are next to pointless.
The AI in pes, especially 12, is so much better and yes more realistic.
I think part of the difference in opinions is how you play and what mode.
I can play round the faults in pes better than the faults with fifa. Plus I mainly play against the cpu, where PES is undoubtably the better game, IMO. Ive always bought both, although I haven't bought FIFA12 yet, and Pes always ends up getting a lot more game time.
Even against humans I find FIFA too annoying to play for long. There is obvious scripting where its trying to manufacture a win, lose, win, lose etc pattern. I played numerous rematches with a friend online and it was blatant that it was either being made easier or harder to attempt to share the wins out. I find the cursor change on FIFA worse than the one on PES. Constant one on ones, players running through defences, too much space. I know 12 has a different defensive system, but previously the much fabled jostling system meant tackling was more akin to rugby. Barge someone off the ball from behind as a tackling method. How is that football? Even against a human opponent FIFA feels ultimately quite boring and empty.
Whats disappointed me more than PES's fall from grace and failure to adapt to next gen machines, is the complete overhyping of FIFA. EA went from making poor football games on the PS2, to average ones on the PS3. PES has gone from making good to very good games on the PS2 to average ones on the PS3. Possibly the difference in review scores could be down to FIFA's ability to impress out the box and feel like it promises more, but fails to deliver. PES is more of a slow burner. Its stand out feature over FIFA is the AI, and thats harder to appreciate in a short term review. FIFA, for me, will keep falling down until its AI comes anywhere near to matching its other features.
Im enjoying PES at the moment. Whether I'm playing it in 2 months plus will be the test of it regaining its mojo.
shaun7
Registered User
I agree, fifa 12's AI is not aweful. Aweful is not ENOUGH to describe how bad Fifa 12's AI is.
DO NOT MAKE ME RE LIST THE UTTER BS FROM FIFA 12'S AI again.
Oh and you're talking about player runs? Seriously? Pes 12 does it good, even fifa to an extent, however that's not the point. The point is how the cpu AI plays, and that's atrocious.
Can you even REVIEW a game?
N'gog le God
Registered User
This is my first year of moving to the dark side and i just can't get my head around FIFA. It is much better than i remembered but still something just not right with it. PES pisses me off so much how they have allowed FIFA to get the jump on them. If they hadn't of been pissing around for so many years they would have completely left FIFA behind in the dust by now.
The tackling system on FIFA is very weird. The shooting feels weird as well which PES is doing its best to copy now for God knows what reason.
I'm sure what i always liked about PES was that it just seemed more natural and SOLID where as FIFA always seemed like you weren't actually in control of a solid player or in contact with the ground ie more like air hockey but PES now seems to be moving in that direction as well.
I actually like the impact engine on FIFA, it obviously needs lots of work and is in its infancy but if they can't get it working properly FIFA will only continue to get better in my opinion. Whereas i always liked PES because i thought it felt more real and you were more likely to get random deflected shots etc. The ball physics are still well dodgy in FIFA but it seems like PES is now trying to move into that direction with horrible nasty floaty shots.
I have played racing games a little and what i would always notice first was whether you actually felt like the tyres were in contact with the ground or not. Somes games would feeling like you were merely skating along with that air hockey feeling whereas others you would actually feel like your tyres where burning rubber.
I always used to think FIFA was more of a ridge racer to PES's forza but PES seems to want to get more floaty and skatey now for some reason.
Personally i don't actually think the FIFA menus are all that, a bit too flashy and complicated for their own good, i couldn't care less about PES's menu system and i actually preferred the old nice and simple menus. All i ever used to hear was how good FIFAs menus were and how much better online it was and while there are a hell of a lot more options i can't really tell wtf is going on, maybe i just need to get used to them.
FIFA - ideas like 11 vs 11, which although often ends up in a mess, is a well implemented great idea.
PES - 2vs2 online on the XBOX 360 is in manual and on box and for all intenses and purposes, should be in he game, but is inexplicably left out for what seems to be nothing more than carelessness/ineptitude.
- Comes up with the single greatest computer game option ever! RANDOM SELECTION MATCH, shear simple genius, but then just leaves it out of all future games for no reason whatsoever!
I think it is clear to me that a lot more effort and care is going into FIFA than PES. I actually think PES has the better staff it is just that they are either lazy or being badly directed and i would think the latter. I don't think the money has anything to do with it. Money can buy FIFA all the licences and flashiness it wants but PES always used to have the actual simplistics of football over FIFA.
We need another games company to poach all the key PES staff that know what they are doing and make a the game they should of made years ago.
FIFA = broken mess being repaired and bettered each year.
PES = Once so close to perfection now just 1 step forwards 2 steps back.
The tackling system on FIFA is very weird. The shooting feels weird as well which PES is doing its best to copy now for God knows what reason.
I'm sure what i always liked about PES was that it just seemed more natural and SOLID where as FIFA always seemed like you weren't actually in control of a solid player or in contact with the ground ie more like air hockey but PES now seems to be moving in that direction as well.
I actually like the impact engine on FIFA, it obviously needs lots of work and is in its infancy but if they can't get it working properly FIFA will only continue to get better in my opinion. Whereas i always liked PES because i thought it felt more real and you were more likely to get random deflected shots etc. The ball physics are still well dodgy in FIFA but it seems like PES is now trying to move into that direction with horrible nasty floaty shots.
I have played racing games a little and what i would always notice first was whether you actually felt like the tyres were in contact with the ground or not. Somes games would feeling like you were merely skating along with that air hockey feeling whereas others you would actually feel like your tyres where burning rubber.
I always used to think FIFA was more of a ridge racer to PES's forza but PES seems to want to get more floaty and skatey now for some reason.
Personally i don't actually think the FIFA menus are all that, a bit too flashy and complicated for their own good, i couldn't care less about PES's menu system and i actually preferred the old nice and simple menus. All i ever used to hear was how good FIFAs menus were and how much better online it was and while there are a hell of a lot more options i can't really tell wtf is going on, maybe i just need to get used to them.
FIFA - ideas like 11 vs 11, which although often ends up in a mess, is a well implemented great idea.
PES - 2vs2 online on the XBOX 360 is in manual and on box and for all intenses and purposes, should be in he game, but is inexplicably left out for what seems to be nothing more than carelessness/ineptitude.
- Comes up with the single greatest computer game option ever! RANDOM SELECTION MATCH, shear simple genius, but then just leaves it out of all future games for no reason whatsoever!
I think it is clear to me that a lot more effort and care is going into FIFA than PES. I actually think PES has the better staff it is just that they are either lazy or being badly directed and i would think the latter. I don't think the money has anything to do with it. Money can buy FIFA all the licences and flashiness it wants but PES always used to have the actual simplistics of football over FIFA.
We need another games company to poach all the key PES staff that know what they are doing and make a the game they should of made years ago.
FIFA = broken mess being repaired and bettered each year.
PES = Once so close to perfection now just 1 step forwards 2 steps back.
N'gog le God
Registered User
On this AI issue i should say i barely play 1 player if ever. To me PES has always been a much better game 2vs2, in fact it is transformed as a game. This is why the fact they have left out 2vs2 online on the XBOX360 is such an f'ing disgrace.
Things like players making runs etc become much less of an issue when you have someone else in control with you. I think the 11vs11 on FIFA is a great idea if it was possible to actually get more than a few people who actually wanted to play properly and not score with the keeper.
Saying that when i play someone else on FIFA i don't like the runs my players often make and that is why i always try to play 2vs2 if i can, but i noticed the sam on PES before they put that new system in anyway.
I always used to moan that PES was trying to fix matches when i would thrash one of my mates then the next match have like 20 shots to 2 but then lose although i don't think i ever actually seriously thought the ai was fixing it more it was just like real life and a coincidence. Ie teams like Barca do lose and draw now and then but usually they still have all the possession and chances.
I will need to pay more attention to deliberate AI interference and "Catch Up" even in player vs player matches.
Things like players making runs etc become much less of an issue when you have someone else in control with you. I think the 11vs11 on FIFA is a great idea if it was possible to actually get more than a few people who actually wanted to play properly and not score with the keeper.
Saying that when i play someone else on FIFA i don't like the runs my players often make and that is why i always try to play 2vs2 if i can, but i noticed the sam on PES before they put that new system in anyway.
I always used to moan that PES was trying to fix matches when i would thrash one of my mates then the next match have like 20 shots to 2 but then lose although i don't think i ever actually seriously thought the ai was fixing it more it was just like real life and a coincidence. Ie teams like Barca do lose and draw now and then but usually they still have all the possession and chances.
I will need to pay more attention to deliberate AI interference and "Catch Up" even in player vs player matches.
I knew you would say that. Human vs Human ....well here is human vs CPU.
This is just on regular mode so...
As you can see in the below videos, all that is said about Fifa's defending is just bullcrap.
Stop making stupid accusations about a game you do not play.
Maybe you can post some matches of the horrible defending you and others continually complain about.
You are sounding pathetic now ...really. :blush:
Proof!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhtOqfbPczA
and of course legendary settings...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1p2GSwIiU
orlandoSPUR
Registered User
This
I can review A game better than you as i am neutral and you are completely biased. You don't expereince fifa as other gamers experience so you would be poor at reviewing
i have successfully converted to fifa after battering the demo for hours. It is way more realistic- the ball physics, player movement, individuality it's all there. And defending isn't hard and unlike pes there is a button to stick your foot out unlike pes where sticking your foot out is controlled by the ai