Serious issues with basic gameplay in PES2009.

[Lucius]

Playing with my brother, same console, we seem to have a few items that we continuously have a problem with that should just absolutely not happen.

First issue, biggest issue. Passing. I haven't had this be an issue too much in 1 player mode, but when playing with two people (different teams), it seems it's very common for you to attempt a pass in one direction, only to have the ball go in a completely different direction. For example, trying to pass forward and having it go out to the wing, or passing into the center when near the goal and it going backwards towards midfield. This has been the cause of both missed scoring opportunities and weak goals given up when it happens in the back or off counter attacks that should have never happened. There's just no excuse for this happening. It seems to happen on a fairly frequent basis, maybe 5-10 times a game.

Poor goalie AI. I know goalies are supposed to be improved, but there's no excuse for a ball to be floated into the 6 yard box and I have to manually tell my keeper to grab it. What's worse is they hesitate a second before making a move if you manually tell them to come out. If a goalie can definitely get to a ball in the air I shouldn't have to tell them to attack it. I'd also like to be able to see goalies move on the ground and crawl or reach for a ball if they are already on the ground. Right now if they go to the ground and the ball is near them they just stand right back up. Also, lack of control when choosing who to pass to off a goal kick or throw to when the goalie has possession. It's a crap shoot I'm sure we've all let up a few goals because it doesn't pass who we want to (the logical choice).

Poor offensive AI. Players generally don't move off the ball all that well. They're ok if you are pushing forward, but if not you are generally out of luck. Players don't make runs unless you are actually advancing the ball. Sometimes I just want to stop and hold it for a second to maintain my passing angle, but if I stop pressing up so does the player making the run. Other times my outside back might be bringing it up the wing from the back with none of the other team around. For some reason my outside midfielder on that side decides they need to check back to him and get within 5 yards before he takes off up the field, at which time he's generally drawn a defender to my back and taken away any passing angles. Computer players never overlap either. If I hold the ball or cut inside I'd like to see the offensive players adjust to what I'm doing. Move to the open space.

2 defensive AI complaints. The first is computer controlled players slide tackling players on the wings when there is no reason to. They'll be running neck and neck and then my computer controlled character will just wipe him out for no reason. The second complaint is computer controlled characters going to where the ball is and not where it will be. For example, if there's a ball in the air, and the other team is clearly going to win it and take off up the field the defender doesn't drop back, take away angles, and contain, they just run to where the ball is supposed to hit the ground and then the offensive player blows right by them because the defender was never going to get there in time and just took themselves out of defensive possession. This also commonly happens with defenders coming over to help on a guy breaking down the wing. They don't cut off angles, they just go straight at the guy. This is even more frustrating when your defender is slower then the offensive player because he never has a chance of getting to the man with the ball.

One more defensive complaint I just remembered. It most often occurs on corners. Defensive players will have the ball coming directly at them and then just run up the field leaving an offensive player wide open to put it in the net. I've even had this happen when I've been controlling the player. There is no reason this should ever happen.

These seem to be the most egregious problems I've noticed playing and really go a long way to ruining the fun. If you lose the game you want to feel like it's because you messed up or the other team just made a great play, not because your AI teammates did something stupid or because of broken controls that start spraying passes in every direction except for the one you actually want the ball to go.

 

[What Lad]

Playing with my brother, same console, we seem to have a few items that we continuously have a problem with that should just absolutely not happen.

First issue, biggest issue. Passing. I haven't had this be an issue too much in 1 player mode, but when playing with two people (different teams), it seems it's very common for you to attempt a pass in one direction, only to have the ball go in a completely different direction. For example, trying to pass forward and having it go out to the wing, or passing into the center when near the goal and it going backwards towards midfield. This has been the cause of both missed scoring opportunities and weak goals given up when it happens in the back or off counter attacks that should have never happened. There's just no excuse for this happening. It seems to happen on a fairly frequent basis, maybe 5-10 times a game.

there are only 8 directions of play. if two players are standing within that same directional field the game has no way of telling which one you mean, sometimes if you hold X you'll pass to the furthest away player. but the only true solution is to use the right analogue stick to actually put the ball exactly where you wanted it to go yourself. unfortunately, this solution to the passing problem was disabled for pro 2009

Poor goalie AI. I know goalies are supposed to be improved, but there's no excuse for a ball to be floated into the 6 yard box and I have to manually tell my keeper to grab it. What's worse is they hesitate a second before making a move if you manually tell them to come out. If a goalie can definitely get to a ball in the air I shouldn't have to tell them to attack it. I'd also like to be able to see goalies move on the ground and crawl or reach for a ball if they are already on the ground. Right now if they go to the ground and the ball is near them they just stand right back up. Also, lack of control when choosing who to pass to off a goal kick or throw to when the goalie has possession. It's a crap shoot I'm sure we've all let up a few goals because it doesn't pass who we want to (the logical choice).

automated goalkeepers can be quite stupid. but if you turn on manual GK cursor you can get hold of him, he will still dive automatically but you can determine his standing position. usually this means even against the best strikers in 1-1 situations, if you can second guess the direction of the shot and position your keeper well, you can save absolutely anything. unfortunately this solution to the goakpeeping problem was inexplicably removed from pro 2009

Poor offensive AI. Players generally don't move off the ball all that well. They're ok if you are pushing forward, but if not you are generally out of luck. Players don't make runs unless you are actually advancing the ball. Sometimes I just want to stop and hold it for a second to maintain my passing angle, but if I stop pressing up so does the player making the run. Other times my outside back might be bringing it up the wing from the back with none of the other team around. For some reason my outside midfielder on that side decides they need to check back to him and get within 5 yards before he takes off up the field, at which time he's generally drawn a defender to my back and taken away any passing angles. Computer players never overlap either. If I hold the ball or cut inside I'd like to see the offensive players adjust to what I'm doing. Move to the open space.

if you press L1 when you pass, or R2 after you pass, the player that has just passed will dash forwards for a few moments, regardless of what you are doing. often its a good idea to send a player on a run, then knowing just as he's about to burst through the back line of defense, point the right analogue stick into the path of his run. true through balls, the beautiful game as intended. unfortunately this solution to the lay on problem was disabled for pro 2009

2 defensive AI complaints. The first is computer controlled players slide tackling players on the wings when there is no reason to. They'll be running neck and neck and then my computer controlled character will just wipe him out for no reason. The second complaint is computer controlled characters going to where the ball is and not where it will be. For example, if there's a ball in the air, and the other team is clearly going to win it and take off up the field the defender doesn't drop back, take away angles, and contain, they just run to where the ball is supposed to hit the ground and then the offensive player blows right by them because the defender was never going to get there in time and just took themselves out of defensive possession. This also commonly happens with defenders coming over to help on a guy breaking down the wing. They don't cut off angles, they just go straight at the guy. This is even more frustrating when your defender is slower then the offensive player because he never has a chance of getting to the man with the ball.

firstly, if you hold square or X, the defender may slide automatically if he thinks he sees enough of the ball to go for. he will not do this if you are just running.

secondly, when a player is waiting for a high ball to land, you can super-cancel (R1 & R2) to gain control over his positioning and movement. the earlier the better. this is possible in all situations, and almost vital. amazingly, this useful feature is still present in pro 2009!

One more defensive complaint I just remembered. It most often occurs on corners. Defensive players will have the ball coming directly at them and then just run up the field leaving an offensive player wide open to put it in the net. I've even had this happen when I've been controlling the player. There is no reason this should ever happen.

i tend to find the best thing to do is get hold of somebody by the near post as quickly as possible, move them slightly in front of the attacker, and just keep pressing square. there is no guarantee that certain players such as adriano won't just shoulder you out of the way, but if you have a player with a good jump or head stat and with decent body balance, you should almost always be able to clear your lines this way.

These seem to be the most egregious problems I've noticed playing and really go a long way to ruining the fun. If you lose the game you want to feel like it's because you messed up or the other team just made a great play, not because your AI teammates did something stupid or because of broken controls that start spraying passes in every direction except for the one you actually want the ball to go.

you have to use the right analogue stick. its tricky, but when you get used to it the passes become your own, the vision is your own, and the responsibility of misplaced or poor passes also becomes your own. unfortunately this feature was removed from pro 2009 etc

 

[shaun7]

It all comes down to this. Too much luck based when in 2 players since the AI decides the win sort of.

 

[Lucius]

there are only 8 directions of play. if two players are standing within that same directional field the game has no way of telling which one you mean, sometimes if you hold X you'll pass to the furthest away player. but the only true solution is to use the right analogue stick to actually put the ball exactly where you wanted it to go yourself. unfortunately, this solution to the passing problem was disabled for pro 2009

Understandable. I'm talking about when I have a player roughly 90 degrees above me (on the screen) and maybe another 90 degrees to the left. Not when I've got two players in the same general vicinity.

if you press L1 when you pass, or R2 after you pass, the player that has just passed will dash forwards for a few moments, regardless of what you are doing. often its a good idea to send a player on a run, then knowing just as he's about to burst through the back line of defense, point the right analogue stick into the path of his run. true through balls, the beautiful game as intended. unfortunately this solution to the lay on problem was disabled for pro 2009

I understand this. I'm not talking about a give and go. I'm talking about teammates moving off the ball when I'm dribbling. Maybe they never passed it to me in the first place, how am I supposed to make him make a forward run? Your solution does nothing for me with regards to my defender-midfielder problem.

firstly, if you hold square or X, the defender may slide automatically if he thinks he sees enough of the ball to go for. he will not do this if you are just running.

secondly, when a player is waiting for a high ball to land, you can super-cancel (R1 & R2) to gain control over his positioning and movement. the earlier the better. this is possible in all situations, and almost vital. amazingly, this useful feature is still present in pro 2009!

I understand the controls. With regards to your first paragrahp, I'm talking about a computer controlled character slide tackling in a situation when no one would in real life.

In the second paragraph, I'm talking about a computer controlled player, not the one I'm controlling. I cannot control two players at once. It's about how non-controlled characters anticipate. To be more exact, how they don't anticipate. Sometimes I like to use a defender not on the ball to cut off potential passing lanes while the computer controlled player plays D on ball.

i tend to find the best thing to do is get hold of somebody by the near post as quickly as possible, move them slightly in front of the attacker, and just keep pressing square. there is no guarantee that certain players such as adriano won't just shoulder you out of the way, but if you have a player with a good jump or head stat and with decent body balance, you should almost always be able to clear your lines this way.

Yeah, I mean...this is exactly the problem I've had. I do this and they end up taking off up field when the ball is halfway to the box. If they had held their position the ball would have come right to them. I have no problem with a player out-jumping or out-muscling one of my defenders for the ball. I have a problem with defenders not attempting to head a ball they can reach or running away from a ball that is coming directly to them.


No offense What Lad, but you didn't "fix" any of my issues with 2009. Not that I think I'm doing anything wrong. My brother has the exact same problems. That's why I'm hoping they're heard by Konami and they can hopefully eliminate the issues in 2010.

 

[What Lad]

i didn't fix any of your problems because you're playing 2009, which basically had all the solutions removed for some reason?

 

[Barca FC]

I absolutely agree with you Lucius

For me the game has been getting worse and worse for no reason whatsoever. I cannot understand why things that made the game more playable have been removed with every iteration of the game, especially when considering that the move to next gen gaming should have provided Konami enough memory etc. to put everything WE WANT and IMPROVE GAMEPLAY.

With regard to your first complaint I can actually expand on it.
Consider this, you are running through on goal with striker A and striker B is running into the box slightly behind you but in a perfect position for a simple tap-in...you get close enough to the gk to execute the pass only for the idiot striker A to make a pass soo weak it never reaches striker B but is simply cut out by a defender who should never have had a chance to catch up with our strikers.
Manual passing isnt a solution..its an alternative to automated passing and In my opinion a simple pass must always in a situation like that get to the striker because I have never seen any match were two strikers f-up a 1 on 1 due to a poor pass at top level football.

FIX IT KONAMI

With regard to GK's you got it absolutley right! Goal keepers in this game are HORRIBLE. How many times have you seen keepers save the ball when the ball has crossed the line...its waaay to common...it never used to be in PES but was added for no reason that makes sense. When a gk saves the ball behind the line I would rather he did that because he failed to make it across goal while scrambling...it is soo annoying when they do it for shots that are going straight at them.

AI is just stupid. Where is the balance? Why should the gk AI be smart enough to know when to dive but be dumb enough to think it has to STAND UP BEFORE it dives?
It is seriously annoying and its silly to even call it Artificial INTELLIGENCE. Why is it smart enough to dive but dumb enough not to know that if the ball is hit in the 6yard box it should catch it?

FIX IT KONAMI

Offensive AI. Personally I think any AI gets in the way when it comes to gameplay. AI is just silly and ONLY works in scripted games eg. CPU vs CPU. As a gamer No-one wants to be second guessing their AI. Whats the point in having attack arrows in the game if there is NO off-the-ball movement?

KONAMI PLEASE MINIMISE AI - It will never suite everyones game play style and its impossible to think you can develop an AI system that will appeal to everyone. Earlier versions of PES where successful and enjoyable because there was less AI.

I would go on...but im too tired...

Good post Lucius

 

[byrnie05]

I noticed quite a bit how little your offense attacks with you on a run. Coming from PES6 to PES09 via 08 and back to PES6, it was a real shell-shock.

PES6 had support all the time.