Amateur
Registered User
Dear Konami,
I have purchased PES for many years now, and having seen the potential that games like PES5 and PES6 showed, I must say that I am disappointed with the lack of progress,
At the same time, I should also say that PES 2010 is in my opinion, the best PES to date,
I have read some very interesting things about PES 2011 and I just wanted to give some feedback, because some of the things that Seabass has mentioned so far... I think if done correctly, Seabass and Co could re-invent PES in a very positive way,
So I wanted to give some insight about a few things regarding PES, I have quoted comments from the Eurogamer article (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/pro-evolution-soccer-2011-hands-on?page=4) and I have divided my feedback into seven parts:
* ground-rules,
* super-human perception
* super-human stamina
* generic player individuality
* the football: an unbiased dictator
* real-life examples
* football sims: the "pin-ball" concept
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* ground-rules,
The old PES formula was original and fresh about five to seven years ago, offering the most realistic player individuality at the time, with a fluid and organic feel to the game; however, it must be clear that the game or genre has reached a stage where massive changes are required,
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Seabass: "We are always challenged to make a change," he says, speaking through a translator. "In order to make the game feel like PES, this perhaps became an excuse for not making enough changes. This time our hidden slogan is 'break what is PES' - we wanted to take the change much further and we wanted to make the next step."
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Having played both PES 2010 and FIFA10, I have identified a key problem that in my opinion -- is the key reason for the lack of innovation,
Like all PS2-PES games: PES 2010 is a game with no ground-rules to follow... no universal law to follow, no guidelines to follow, no instructions, no substance, etc, etc.
In other words, the game is broken from the ground up; the skills of the user must revolve around identifying and exploiting obvious flaws, which are all too familiar at this point... which explains the lack of a "learning curve" in the last three to four years,
The foundation of the building is falling down because of old age, and the only improvements that PES 2010 offered were a set of new doors, new windows, and new paint,
* super-human perception,
In PES 2010 we can — always — move in accordance to what we can see from our wide-view perspective,
This is a huge problem that has never been addressed, and because of that, there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player: it feels like the same exact thing,
Now when we look at real-life Football, we can see a clear difference between space-marking and man-marking; in other words, between marking the space and marking the player,
That difference between space-marking and man-marking, is one of the ground-rules or universal laws of Football; you NEED to do it, it is not a choice, it’s an inevitable decision,
And of course, TIME and SPACE are very important, as the more space you have between yourself and where the ball is positioned (from a defensive stand point) — the more you need to mark the space,
On the other hand, the less space there is between yourself and the ball (from a defensive perspective) — the more important it is to mark the player,
This is not a flaw of real-life Football, this is just a rule that must be followed and respected if you want to play Football successfully,
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Seabass: "FIFA is probably simpler because they have the overall gameplay balance just like we used to have - but the basics of football are one-versus-one, the ball carrier versus the defender," he explains. "So if you really want to go in deep, which we have, I think you'll get a more realistic flavour of this basic football element."
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Now an important thing happens in these "ball carrier versus defender" situations, a transition takes place, when the player shifts from a space-marking stance into a man-marking situation:
When that shift takes place, the defender who was marking the space is now focused on the ball and on the individual who has the ball at his feet; in other words, the defender is no longer marking the space,
And when this happens, the defender becomes unaware of whatever may be building-up behind his back, everything that may be happening behind his back is now "invisible" to his eyes; and therefore, once the defender is compromised in the play, the defender cannot move in accordance to something that he cannot see, to something that at this point, would be irrelevant...
I will give a link to a YouTube video-clip that will give you a brief and very modern example of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLU9ofb-i58
As you can see (at 0:06) in the video-clip, when the ball was at a distance of about ten feet from where Carles Puyol was positioned: Carles Puyol instinctively got himself compromised in the play,
As we can see (at 0:07), Carles Puyol compromised himself a bit too quickly, perhaps thinking that someone was covering at the back; but as we can see from our wide view perspective, he has no visual contact with the situation building-up behind his back, and therefore he CANNOT move in accordance to something that he cannot see.
Here is a three step explanation of what happened in that video-clip:
1st -- Carles Puyol and Gerard Pique have their eyes fixed on the ball and on the ball carrier, BOTH players are very close to where the ball is positioned, BOTH players have been effectively compromised in the play; at this point, they don't have visual contact with the situation building up behind their backs,
2nd -- The individual who's closer to the camera angle, instead of offering cover at the back, he stopped running... and he just looked at the ball even though he could not affect the play from where he was positioned; thus leaving a wide open space behind Puyol and Pique, by the time he reacted and started running it was already too late; the individual closer to the camera angle did not read the play correctly and did not reacted in time,
3rd -- Switzerland, by the use of intelligent ball movement and intelligent movement without the ball, created a gap at the heart of Spain's defense and they exploited that gap straight away; producing a goal and an unexpected victory,
You cannot really mark the space when the ball is five or ten feet away from you, this is why build-up play is not an alternative or option in real-life football: build-up play is necessary, midfield battles are necessary,
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Seabass: "We were running in many different directions; today I think we're pretty much stable on which direction we should go. We're not shy of saying we made our mistakes in the past, but we want to use that to give back double, even triple the expectations of our users today. I think we can do that with PES 2011."
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When we play PES 2010 (or FIFA 2010),
There is no difference between marking the space and marking the player; you can do all sorts of unrealistic curved movements to (both) mark the space and mark the player at the same time -- and -- consequently, this produces a mindless “pin-ball” type of game,
A “pin-ball” game that requires no thinking at all, the user simply runs after the player with the ball until he gets the ball, or until the COM decides that it is your turn to have possession of the ball — via a formulated script,
PES has been produced for about 15 years now, I think we are at a stage, where we need to start seeing improvements in this area of the game; that essential transition between marking the space and marking the player must be there,
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Defence, Seabass notes, "has changed massively". Using the dash button to close down and press the player with the ball has been replaced by a three-pronged system using the X button (it's all PS3 in Japan) and directional input.
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The key flaw in all PES games to date, is the fact that there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player: this is why scoring goals is so easy... this is why the Football Genre is stuck in the past,
By finally rectifying this long-standing flaw, Konami would effectively re-invent PES in a very positive way; if done correctly and realistically,
As far as I'm concerned, the new defensive system will determine how good PES 2011 will be; hopefully we'll see a trailer detailing the differences between the old defensive system and the new defensive system that we currently know nothing about,
Once we have that transition between space-marking and man-marking, once the players on the pitch start reacting and moving like human beings; once that happens, the game will start feeling like a proper current-gen simulation, a proper evolution,
* super-human stamina,
Another big flaw of all PES games, and one that still exists in PES 2010 — the fact that players never get tired,
I think this is somewhat a product of the super-human perception,
If we have no transition between marking the space and marking the player, if we have no ground-rules; then a simple way to hide that fact, would be by simply adding more elements of super-human attributes,
Thus if the players on the pitch have super-human stamina, you can always run after the player with the ball without thinking about any of your actions, or you can attack your opponent without the necessity of thinking,
You don't have to worry about your defenders loosing their ability to mark the space, no matter how close to the ball the defender may be, you know that you can always move in accordance to what you can see from your wide view perspective; and you don't have to worry about running out of energy, because players can run for days without needing to re-charge.
Like I said, I think this is just a product of the super-human perception, the only way of fixing this issue is by fixing the root of the problem.
If the transition between marking the space and marking the player is non-existent; fixing the super-human stamina flaw will only make the game more boring to play,
Therefore, fixing the super-human perception or perspective, would also produce improvements in terms of stamina,
* generic player individuality,
A lot of people like to boast about the “player individuality” that PES offers; but let’s be honest, has it improved a lot in the last 5 or 6 years?
Well, the lack of progress in this respect is simply a product of both, the super-human perception and stamina flaws,
It means that the physical attributes of the players will stand out in excess, whereas on the other hand, the “footballing brain” type of player will not stand out as much as it should,
And this is simply due to the fact that build-up play is never necessary, it’s just an option, an option that you can choose not to follow whenever you feel like it; and at times, you exploit the flaws of the game without really intending to do so,
Once the super-human perception and super-human stamina flaws are fixed; once that happens, if it happens... massive improvements in terms of “player individuality” would be possible,
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In tandem, physicality assumes greater significance on the field as players jostle for the ball, with the aim to make players consider more the attributes of the player they are controlling and the best tactics to employ during these encounters. The essence of PES 2011 for Seabass is found in these one-on-one moments. It's the feature he cites to distinguish the experience from its main rival.
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Both FIFA09 and FIFA10 are boring and excessively minimalistic in terms of defensive play; and fact of the matter is that whenever you are dribbling -- your opponent will be marking you,
So for all the right analogue dribbling tricks that the attacker has; there must be a defensive equivalent for that, the game must be fun when you have the ball and when you don't have the ball,
Dribbling and Defending go hand-in-hand, it would make no sense to improve dribbling tricks without improving the defensive side of the game,
And when I saw the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Jvkg0HAsI), well, the dribbling tricks are a bit too over-the-top for my taste; it looks very similar to FIFA in this respect... but unlike FIFA, it seems as though Konami wants to go down a more realistic route,
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Seabass: "We get asked if we'll lose the feeling of PES. I assure you this feeling will never be lost."
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People think the “pick up and play” factor is the reason why the game is “fun” and addictive; however, after 15 years of playing the same game, should our definition of the word “fun” evolve?
It must be clear, that the root of the problem must be fixed... Simply adding more and more details without addressing the root of the problem — will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
PES 2010 and FIFA10 are proof of that fact, adding details and more details without addressing the ROOT of the problem -- will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
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Seabass: "I always thought in all of our games like PES and FIFA, feints were just used to show off," Seabass says. "What I wanted to do in PES 2011 was to make the feints and dummies useful to the player. I didn't want to make the controls super-difficult. In PES 2011 I was able to make the user perform these feints quite easily. At the same time if you overuse it there's a high risk - so it's more fun when combined with the defending I described."
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I'm looking forwards to that new defensive system, I want to see just how different it is and where the improvement will be felt the most,
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
That basic "one-versus-one" element of the game, it should also affect off-the-ball movement in a big way,
By effectively implementing that essential and repetitive transition between space-marking and man-marking, you would effectively improve both the "one-versus-one" aspect of the game and the tactical aspect of the game,
* the football: an unbiased dictator,
I have mentioned it a few times already, but I need to reiterate the point once again: the key flaw in all PES games to date, is the fact that there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player,
This key flaw affects all areas of the game, because it affects the off-the-ball movement and on-the-ball movement of all the players; it generates unrealistic passing angles, it renders build-up play as something you don't really need to do in order to score goals, etc, etc.
How can the game have a clearly defined difference between marking the space and marking the player?
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
But what would determine or dictate when man-marking is necessary?
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Key to PES 2011’s new approach is a specially-designed control system that allows total control over every element of play. The triangulation of passes and making space using clever runs becomes paramount, and build-up play is everything. Likewise, dribbling and close control are tougher to master, and the days of making streaking runs through the centre of the park are over, as PES mirrors the real-life football.
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In real-life football, build-up play is everything,
The natural tendency that human beings have of fixing their eyes on the ball and on the ball carrier; the necessity of marking the player when you can no longer mark the space, when it is impossible to actually mark the space...
The necessity of marking the player when it is no longer possible to mark the space or when you have been effectively compromised in the play: should not be an option that you can choose not to follow whenever you feel like not following it, the user cannot decide to mark the space when he has already been compromised in the play; like in real-life, the ball is the most unbiased thing in the world,
Therefore, the transition between space-marking and man-marking should be determined by the position of the ball, the distance between the ball and nearby defenders; so that whenever defenders are too close to the ball, at a distance of approximately ten feet between the ball and the defender, the defender will be effectively compromised in the play,
And when a defender is COMPROMISED in the play, the defender will no longer have the ability of marking the space, instead, he would now have more precision in terms of man-marking,
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The changes will have an effect on how the game controls, said Takatsuka. Until now, they’ve had a “Famicom-like” belief that good controls means fast movement. But it isn’t this simple. He wouldn’t give share specifics about what kind of changes to expect, but he did say that the area of the game that most clearly shows the changes is the relationship between AI and player motions.
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A compromised defender should react differently in different positions of the pitch, if for example, the defender is compromised in the middle of the pitch; he will mark the space, or in other words, he will follow the trajectory of the ball,
This means that if a defensive midfielder is compromised in the middle of the pitch, he will fix his eyes on the ball and on the ball carrier, and he will man-mark the ball carrier; however, if the ball carrier passes the ball, the defensive midfielder will follow the trajectory of the ball,
On the other hand, if a defender is compromised in an advanced area of the pitch, nearby the penalty box or inside the penalty box: he will mark the player, regardless of where the ball is positioned,
By effectively implementing that essential and necessary transition between marking the space and marking the player, not as an option, but as a universal law that must be followed by all players equally regardless of the style of football they play,
By effectively doing that, Konami would effectively implement an unbiased and unbreakable ground-rule into the game; and this would open the doors to a new level of player individuality, effectively re-inventing PES in a very positive and progressive way,
* real-life examples,
I don't want Konami or anyone taking my word for everything that I have discussed, therefore I will provide real-life evidence to support what I have discussed,
The video-clips will focus on: an imaginary 30 feet radius that surrounds the ball wherever the ball goes,
Therefore, it is very important to never loose track of that imaginary 30 feet radius that surrounds the ball at all times; I have some guidelines to discuss before showing you the video-clips,
However, before discussing the mentioned guidelines, I feel it's necessary to briefly discuss how the (imaginary) 30 feet radius works:
1st -- The fictitious 30 feet radius or circle surrounds the ball at all times, once a defender falls within that 30 feet circle,
2nd -- Obviously, a defender whom is at a distance of 30 feet between himself and the position of the ball, cannot man-mark the individual with the ball at his feet, so in strict terms: he would not be man-marking the ball carrier,
3dr -- However, a defender who enters into the imaginary 30 feet circle will now be compromised in the play; this means that a defender who is at a distance of 30 feet between himself and the ball -- will not have the ability of reacting and moving in accordance to something that he cannot see,
4rd -- Therefore, you could argue that, even though the compromised defender cannot actually man-mark the ball carrier; the compromised defender can only mark the space in accordance to what he can actually see, and once he is compromised, once he falls within a 30 feet distance between himself and the position of the ball, the only thing the compromised defender can see at this point is the individual who has the ball at his feet,
4rd -- Therefore, it could be said that the compromised defender, although not engaged in a physical battle, is actually marking the player, and is no longer marking the space; because the compromised defender would be moving in accordance to how the ball carrier moves,
You will see plenty of examples of how the imaginary 30 feet circle works in real-life, I will give example of both past and present, Football has not changed as much as many of us think,
As for the guidelines that I mentioned:
1st -- I have explained and discussed the video-clips via the use of Pictures and Sequences; Pictures are just still-pics from the in-game action, and the Sequences could be two seconds or five seconds of play.
1st -- it is very important, in order to have a better understanding of what you will see in the video-clips, to read all Pictures and Sequences before actually watching the video-clip.
2nd -- pay attention to the position of the ball, I have used the "center circle" and the "penalty area" as my key references for the position of the ball,
3rd -- never loose track of the imaginary 30 feet radius,
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1st real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78363
2nd real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78364
3rd real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78365
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgk_H5p2yco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy0KokUGLBI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvezIFl4qo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S21ixV0qls&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1MDPPURug&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDpY-9BqE9A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlwVEhS3DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjmEfM1c88&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-HHp5dXl5o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcyqAdEyezk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87LlzzHYeI0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eqJqd3FQQQ&feature=related
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When watching the video-clips,
You can clearly see that essential transition between marking the space and marking the player, it is in fact impossible to mark the space and the player at the same time,
This is why build-up play is everything in real-life football, it is not something you can skip and neglect, it is something necessary if you want to play football successfully,
Real-Life Football is very similar to music, the football is like a music instrument, it is completely objective, a room without a piano is a silent and empty space, a room with a piano is a space to hear and produce music, you create your own tune, you create your own music; in football, you create your own space by moving the ball with your god-given talent, without the ball it's only a pitch with 22 individuals on it,
How would music sound if the musical instrument is damaged and doesn't works properly?
Now when we play either PES10 or FIFA10,
We can see everything from our Wide View Perspective, we can see everything at all times, and we can always move accordingly to what we can see from our wide view perspective,
In real-life football this would be impossible, because a human being whom is looking towards the north cannot see whatever may be happening south, and therefore he cannot react to something that as far as he's concerned, does not exists,
And this is why football simulation games are stuck in the past, because they don't capture the essence of football: build-up play, moving the ball to your own tune but without neglecting the strengths of your team,
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Konami: "The new level of control means that PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2011 enjoys a more considered pace of play, which varies dependent on situations. The game will burst into life as counter-attacks come into play, but players can dictate the pace via slow build up or exploiting available space to surge forward. It is harder to make long runs from midfield, and successful play will depend on making quick passes to make room."
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Possession Football like Barcelona's,
Like we just watched in the video-clips with Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta; it requires a rare type of footballer who has both, excellent technique to play in small pockets of space, and an excellent "footballing brain" to dictate the tempo of a match; but most importantly, it requires players going forwards and taking the initiative of the game,
This would make you vulnerable to counter-attacking tactics, which is exactly what Inter did when they played against Barcelona at the Champions League Semi-Finals,
Jose Mourinho knew that his players could not challenge Barcelona in terms of possession and attacking talent; however, he knew that they are vulnerable to counter attacks... and therefore he decided to do what any good manager would do: play to your strengths, allow Barcelona to have the ball, hit them on the break and capitalize on any mistake,
The same universal law of Football applied to counter-attacking football, the ball favors no one:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Texklt2bw
http://www.youtube.com/user/rampin14#p/u/5/1weRnUbbrAE
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* football sims: the "pin-ball" concept
Now having just watched how Football works in real-life, how the transition from marking the space to marking the player works in real-life; let's take a look at Konami's latest installment of the series, Pro Evolution Soccer 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lNmCsNFPU
The first thing that stands out is the lack of player individuality when the players don't have the ball,
All the players behave identically when they don't have the ball; therefore, physical attributes become more important, you can basically run circles around a defender, it's more about running than about actually playing football...
As we can see in the video-clip, the essential "one-versus-one" element of the game is hugely flawed and outdated,
There's no feeling of "one-versus-one" going on, there's no difference between marking the space and marking the player, there's no difference between dribbling against a defender and dribbling against the air,
A lot of people have complained about the lack of animations and dribbling tricks, the lack of fluid movements, etc, etc; however, FIFA10 does offer many fluid animations and many dribbling tricks -- did it fix the monotonous "pin-ball" feel of the game?
Let's take a look at FIFA10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2WIBcW2SU
As we can see, really, build-up play is not necessary in order to score goals; the gameplay concept revolves around exploiting obvious flaws that are all too familiar by now, giving the game a "pin-ball" feel... back to back attacking with no proper build-up play; FIFA10 feels like you are always counter-attacking,
EA Sports added more detailed dribbling into FIFA10 -- but -- the key flaw still is (as it is with PES) that there is no difference at all between marking the space and marking the player,
The essential "one-versus-one" aspect of the game is broken from the ground up, and as a result, the core of the game is broken from the ground up,
As we can see with both PES 2010 and FIFA10, adding details and more details without addressing the root of the problem... will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
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Famitsu Magazine: "The updates will come in both graphics and gameplay areas. Winning Eleven games until now, he said, have been just extensions of the Famicom era. Players were fine with this through the PlayStation 2 , but the development staff now need to change their concepts and ideas to something more appropriate for the new generation machines like Xbox 360 and PS3."
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The difference between marking the space and marking the player must be there, if the Football Genre is ever to move on from the outdated "pin-ball" concept,
When the distance between the ball and a nearby defender is of approximately ten to fifteen feet, the carrier of the ball and the defender must automatically react and move differently,
The position of the ball should dictate when you can mark the space and when you cannot mark the space; and once you have been compromised in a play, you can only un-compromise yourself by moving backwards and out of that 10 or 15 feet (imaginary) radius that surrounds the ball wherever the ball goes,
In "one-versus-one" situations,
If we don't have the ball, we should not worry about the direction in which we are running, because we can no longer mark the space; instead, the game should offer more control and precision in terms of man-marking,
Marking the right side or the left side of the carrier of the ball, left, right, center, keeping a constant distance between yourself and the ball, moving towards the ball, moving backwards; the use of your right leg or left leg in order to intercept a pass, etc, etc,
If you are man-marking Leo Messi, you would want to keep that left foot of his in place; in other words, you might want to mark the left side of the carrier of the ball if the carrier of the ball happens to be Messi,
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
By effectively doing that, Konami would effectively implement an unbiased and unbreakable ground-rule into the game; and this would open the doors to a new level of player individuality, which was the original ambition of the PES Concept,
I have purchased PES for many years now, and having seen the potential that games like PES5 and PES6 showed, I must say that I am disappointed with the lack of progress,
At the same time, I should also say that PES 2010 is in my opinion, the best PES to date,
I have read some very interesting things about PES 2011 and I just wanted to give some feedback, because some of the things that Seabass has mentioned so far... I think if done correctly, Seabass and Co could re-invent PES in a very positive way,
So I wanted to give some insight about a few things regarding PES, I have quoted comments from the Eurogamer article (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/pro-evolution-soccer-2011-hands-on?page=4) and I have divided my feedback into seven parts:
* ground-rules,
* super-human perception
* super-human stamina
* generic player individuality
* the football: an unbiased dictator
* real-life examples
* football sims: the "pin-ball" concept
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* ground-rules,
The old PES formula was original and fresh about five to seven years ago, offering the most realistic player individuality at the time, with a fluid and organic feel to the game; however, it must be clear that the game or genre has reached a stage where massive changes are required,
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Seabass: "We are always challenged to make a change," he says, speaking through a translator. "In order to make the game feel like PES, this perhaps became an excuse for not making enough changes. This time our hidden slogan is 'break what is PES' - we wanted to take the change much further and we wanted to make the next step."
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Having played both PES 2010 and FIFA10, I have identified a key problem that in my opinion -- is the key reason for the lack of innovation,
Like all PS2-PES games: PES 2010 is a game with no ground-rules to follow... no universal law to follow, no guidelines to follow, no instructions, no substance, etc, etc.
In other words, the game is broken from the ground up; the skills of the user must revolve around identifying and exploiting obvious flaws, which are all too familiar at this point... which explains the lack of a "learning curve" in the last three to four years,
The foundation of the building is falling down because of old age, and the only improvements that PES 2010 offered were a set of new doors, new windows, and new paint,
* super-human perception,
In PES 2010 we can — always — move in accordance to what we can see from our wide-view perspective,
This is a huge problem that has never been addressed, and because of that, there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player: it feels like the same exact thing,
Now when we look at real-life Football, we can see a clear difference between space-marking and man-marking; in other words, between marking the space and marking the player,
That difference between space-marking and man-marking, is one of the ground-rules or universal laws of Football; you NEED to do it, it is not a choice, it’s an inevitable decision,
And of course, TIME and SPACE are very important, as the more space you have between yourself and where the ball is positioned (from a defensive stand point) — the more you need to mark the space,
On the other hand, the less space there is between yourself and the ball (from a defensive perspective) — the more important it is to mark the player,
This is not a flaw of real-life Football, this is just a rule that must be followed and respected if you want to play Football successfully,
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Seabass: "FIFA is probably simpler because they have the overall gameplay balance just like we used to have - but the basics of football are one-versus-one, the ball carrier versus the defender," he explains. "So if you really want to go in deep, which we have, I think you'll get a more realistic flavour of this basic football element."
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Now an important thing happens in these "ball carrier versus defender" situations, a transition takes place, when the player shifts from a space-marking stance into a man-marking situation:
When that shift takes place, the defender who was marking the space is now focused on the ball and on the individual who has the ball at his feet; in other words, the defender is no longer marking the space,
And when this happens, the defender becomes unaware of whatever may be building-up behind his back, everything that may be happening behind his back is now "invisible" to his eyes; and therefore, once the defender is compromised in the play, the defender cannot move in accordance to something that he cannot see, to something that at this point, would be irrelevant...
I will give a link to a YouTube video-clip that will give you a brief and very modern example of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLU9ofb-i58
As you can see (at 0:06) in the video-clip, when the ball was at a distance of about ten feet from where Carles Puyol was positioned: Carles Puyol instinctively got himself compromised in the play,
As we can see (at 0:07), Carles Puyol compromised himself a bit too quickly, perhaps thinking that someone was covering at the back; but as we can see from our wide view perspective, he has no visual contact with the situation building-up behind his back, and therefore he CANNOT move in accordance to something that he cannot see.
Here is a three step explanation of what happened in that video-clip:
1st -- Carles Puyol and Gerard Pique have their eyes fixed on the ball and on the ball carrier, BOTH players are very close to where the ball is positioned, BOTH players have been effectively compromised in the play; at this point, they don't have visual contact with the situation building up behind their backs,
2nd -- The individual who's closer to the camera angle, instead of offering cover at the back, he stopped running... and he just looked at the ball even though he could not affect the play from where he was positioned; thus leaving a wide open space behind Puyol and Pique, by the time he reacted and started running it was already too late; the individual closer to the camera angle did not read the play correctly and did not reacted in time,
3rd -- Switzerland, by the use of intelligent ball movement and intelligent movement without the ball, created a gap at the heart of Spain's defense and they exploited that gap straight away; producing a goal and an unexpected victory,
You cannot really mark the space when the ball is five or ten feet away from you, this is why build-up play is not an alternative or option in real-life football: build-up play is necessary, midfield battles are necessary,
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Seabass: "We were running in many different directions; today I think we're pretty much stable on which direction we should go. We're not shy of saying we made our mistakes in the past, but we want to use that to give back double, even triple the expectations of our users today. I think we can do that with PES 2011."
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When we play PES 2010 (or FIFA 2010),
There is no difference between marking the space and marking the player; you can do all sorts of unrealistic curved movements to (both) mark the space and mark the player at the same time -- and -- consequently, this produces a mindless “pin-ball” type of game,
A “pin-ball” game that requires no thinking at all, the user simply runs after the player with the ball until he gets the ball, or until the COM decides that it is your turn to have possession of the ball — via a formulated script,
PES has been produced for about 15 years now, I think we are at a stage, where we need to start seeing improvements in this area of the game; that essential transition between marking the space and marking the player must be there,
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Defence, Seabass notes, "has changed massively". Using the dash button to close down and press the player with the ball has been replaced by a three-pronged system using the X button (it's all PS3 in Japan) and directional input.
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The key flaw in all PES games to date, is the fact that there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player: this is why scoring goals is so easy... this is why the Football Genre is stuck in the past,
By finally rectifying this long-standing flaw, Konami would effectively re-invent PES in a very positive way; if done correctly and realistically,
As far as I'm concerned, the new defensive system will determine how good PES 2011 will be; hopefully we'll see a trailer detailing the differences between the old defensive system and the new defensive system that we currently know nothing about,
Once we have that transition between space-marking and man-marking, once the players on the pitch start reacting and moving like human beings; once that happens, the game will start feeling like a proper current-gen simulation, a proper evolution,
* super-human stamina,
Another big flaw of all PES games, and one that still exists in PES 2010 — the fact that players never get tired,
I think this is somewhat a product of the super-human perception,
If we have no transition between marking the space and marking the player, if we have no ground-rules; then a simple way to hide that fact, would be by simply adding more elements of super-human attributes,
Thus if the players on the pitch have super-human stamina, you can always run after the player with the ball without thinking about any of your actions, or you can attack your opponent without the necessity of thinking,
You don't have to worry about your defenders loosing their ability to mark the space, no matter how close to the ball the defender may be, you know that you can always move in accordance to what you can see from your wide view perspective; and you don't have to worry about running out of energy, because players can run for days without needing to re-charge.
Like I said, I think this is just a product of the super-human perception, the only way of fixing this issue is by fixing the root of the problem.
If the transition between marking the space and marking the player is non-existent; fixing the super-human stamina flaw will only make the game more boring to play,
Therefore, fixing the super-human perception or perspective, would also produce improvements in terms of stamina,
* generic player individuality,
A lot of people like to boast about the “player individuality” that PES offers; but let’s be honest, has it improved a lot in the last 5 or 6 years?
Well, the lack of progress in this respect is simply a product of both, the super-human perception and stamina flaws,
It means that the physical attributes of the players will stand out in excess, whereas on the other hand, the “footballing brain” type of player will not stand out as much as it should,
And this is simply due to the fact that build-up play is never necessary, it’s just an option, an option that you can choose not to follow whenever you feel like it; and at times, you exploit the flaws of the game without really intending to do so,
Once the super-human perception and super-human stamina flaws are fixed; once that happens, if it happens... massive improvements in terms of “player individuality” would be possible,
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In tandem, physicality assumes greater significance on the field as players jostle for the ball, with the aim to make players consider more the attributes of the player they are controlling and the best tactics to employ during these encounters. The essence of PES 2011 for Seabass is found in these one-on-one moments. It's the feature he cites to distinguish the experience from its main rival.
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Both FIFA09 and FIFA10 are boring and excessively minimalistic in terms of defensive play; and fact of the matter is that whenever you are dribbling -- your opponent will be marking you,
So for all the right analogue dribbling tricks that the attacker has; there must be a defensive equivalent for that, the game must be fun when you have the ball and when you don't have the ball,
Dribbling and Defending go hand-in-hand, it would make no sense to improve dribbling tricks without improving the defensive side of the game,
And when I saw the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Jvkg0HAsI), well, the dribbling tricks are a bit too over-the-top for my taste; it looks very similar to FIFA in this respect... but unlike FIFA, it seems as though Konami wants to go down a more realistic route,
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Seabass: "We get asked if we'll lose the feeling of PES. I assure you this feeling will never be lost."
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People think the “pick up and play” factor is the reason why the game is “fun” and addictive; however, after 15 years of playing the same game, should our definition of the word “fun” evolve?
It must be clear, that the root of the problem must be fixed... Simply adding more and more details without addressing the root of the problem — will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
PES 2010 and FIFA10 are proof of that fact, adding details and more details without addressing the ROOT of the problem -- will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
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Seabass: "I always thought in all of our games like PES and FIFA, feints were just used to show off," Seabass says. "What I wanted to do in PES 2011 was to make the feints and dummies useful to the player. I didn't want to make the controls super-difficult. In PES 2011 I was able to make the user perform these feints quite easily. At the same time if you overuse it there's a high risk - so it's more fun when combined with the defending I described."
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I'm looking forwards to that new defensive system, I want to see just how different it is and where the improvement will be felt the most,
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
That basic "one-versus-one" element of the game, it should also affect off-the-ball movement in a big way,
By effectively implementing that essential and repetitive transition between space-marking and man-marking, you would effectively improve both the "one-versus-one" aspect of the game and the tactical aspect of the game,
* the football: an unbiased dictator,
I have mentioned it a few times already, but I need to reiterate the point once again: the key flaw in all PES games to date, is the fact that there is no difference between marking the space and marking the player,
This key flaw affects all areas of the game, because it affects the off-the-ball movement and on-the-ball movement of all the players; it generates unrealistic passing angles, it renders build-up play as something you don't really need to do in order to score goals, etc, etc.
How can the game have a clearly defined difference between marking the space and marking the player?
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
But what would determine or dictate when man-marking is necessary?
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Key to PES 2011’s new approach is a specially-designed control system that allows total control over every element of play. The triangulation of passes and making space using clever runs becomes paramount, and build-up play is everything. Likewise, dribbling and close control are tougher to master, and the days of making streaking runs through the centre of the park are over, as PES mirrors the real-life football.
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In real-life football, build-up play is everything,
The natural tendency that human beings have of fixing their eyes on the ball and on the ball carrier; the necessity of marking the player when you can no longer mark the space, when it is impossible to actually mark the space...
The necessity of marking the player when it is no longer possible to mark the space or when you have been effectively compromised in the play: should not be an option that you can choose not to follow whenever you feel like not following it, the user cannot decide to mark the space when he has already been compromised in the play; like in real-life, the ball is the most unbiased thing in the world,
Therefore, the transition between space-marking and man-marking should be determined by the position of the ball, the distance between the ball and nearby defenders; so that whenever defenders are too close to the ball, at a distance of approximately ten feet between the ball and the defender, the defender will be effectively compromised in the play,
And when a defender is COMPROMISED in the play, the defender will no longer have the ability of marking the space, instead, he would now have more precision in terms of man-marking,
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The changes will have an effect on how the game controls, said Takatsuka. Until now, they’ve had a “Famicom-like” belief that good controls means fast movement. But it isn’t this simple. He wouldn’t give share specifics about what kind of changes to expect, but he did say that the area of the game that most clearly shows the changes is the relationship between AI and player motions.
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A compromised defender should react differently in different positions of the pitch, if for example, the defender is compromised in the middle of the pitch; he will mark the space, or in other words, he will follow the trajectory of the ball,
This means that if a defensive midfielder is compromised in the middle of the pitch, he will fix his eyes on the ball and on the ball carrier, and he will man-mark the ball carrier; however, if the ball carrier passes the ball, the defensive midfielder will follow the trajectory of the ball,
On the other hand, if a defender is compromised in an advanced area of the pitch, nearby the penalty box or inside the penalty box: he will mark the player, regardless of where the ball is positioned,
By effectively implementing that essential and necessary transition between marking the space and marking the player, not as an option, but as a universal law that must be followed by all players equally regardless of the style of football they play,
By effectively doing that, Konami would effectively implement an unbiased and unbreakable ground-rule into the game; and this would open the doors to a new level of player individuality, effectively re-inventing PES in a very positive and progressive way,
* real-life examples,
I don't want Konami or anyone taking my word for everything that I have discussed, therefore I will provide real-life evidence to support what I have discussed,
The video-clips will focus on: an imaginary 30 feet radius that surrounds the ball wherever the ball goes,
Therefore, it is very important to never loose track of that imaginary 30 feet radius that surrounds the ball at all times; I have some guidelines to discuss before showing you the video-clips,
However, before discussing the mentioned guidelines, I feel it's necessary to briefly discuss how the (imaginary) 30 feet radius works:
1st -- The fictitious 30 feet radius or circle surrounds the ball at all times, once a defender falls within that 30 feet circle,
2nd -- Obviously, a defender whom is at a distance of 30 feet between himself and the position of the ball, cannot man-mark the individual with the ball at his feet, so in strict terms: he would not be man-marking the ball carrier,
3dr -- However, a defender who enters into the imaginary 30 feet circle will now be compromised in the play; this means that a defender who is at a distance of 30 feet between himself and the ball -- will not have the ability of reacting and moving in accordance to something that he cannot see,
4rd -- Therefore, you could argue that, even though the compromised defender cannot actually man-mark the ball carrier; the compromised defender can only mark the space in accordance to what he can actually see, and once he is compromised, once he falls within a 30 feet distance between himself and the position of the ball, the only thing the compromised defender can see at this point is the individual who has the ball at his feet,
4rd -- Therefore, it could be said that the compromised defender, although not engaged in a physical battle, is actually marking the player, and is no longer marking the space; because the compromised defender would be moving in accordance to how the ball carrier moves,
You will see plenty of examples of how the imaginary 30 feet circle works in real-life, I will give example of both past and present, Football has not changed as much as many of us think,
As for the guidelines that I mentioned:
1st -- I have explained and discussed the video-clips via the use of Pictures and Sequences; Pictures are just still-pics from the in-game action, and the Sequences could be two seconds or five seconds of play.
1st -- it is very important, in order to have a better understanding of what you will see in the video-clips, to read all Pictures and Sequences before actually watching the video-clip.
2nd -- pay attention to the position of the ball, I have used the "center circle" and the "penalty area" as my key references for the position of the ball,
3rd -- never loose track of the imaginary 30 feet radius,
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1st real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78363
2nd real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78364
3rd real-life example: http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78365
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgk_H5p2yco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy0KokUGLBI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvezIFl4qo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S21ixV0qls&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz1MDPPURug&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDpY-9BqE9A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlwVEhS3DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjmEfM1c88&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-HHp5dXl5o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcyqAdEyezk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87LlzzHYeI0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eqJqd3FQQQ&feature=related
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When watching the video-clips,
You can clearly see that essential transition between marking the space and marking the player, it is in fact impossible to mark the space and the player at the same time,
This is why build-up play is everything in real-life football, it is not something you can skip and neglect, it is something necessary if you want to play football successfully,
Real-Life Football is very similar to music, the football is like a music instrument, it is completely objective, a room without a piano is a silent and empty space, a room with a piano is a space to hear and produce music, you create your own tune, you create your own music; in football, you create your own space by moving the ball with your god-given talent, without the ball it's only a pitch with 22 individuals on it,
How would music sound if the musical instrument is damaged and doesn't works properly?
Now when we play either PES10 or FIFA10,
We can see everything from our Wide View Perspective, we can see everything at all times, and we can always move accordingly to what we can see from our wide view perspective,
In real-life football this would be impossible, because a human being whom is looking towards the north cannot see whatever may be happening south, and therefore he cannot react to something that as far as he's concerned, does not exists,
And this is why football simulation games are stuck in the past, because they don't capture the essence of football: build-up play, moving the ball to your own tune but without neglecting the strengths of your team,
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Konami: "The new level of control means that PRO EVOLUTION SOCCER 2011 enjoys a more considered pace of play, which varies dependent on situations. The game will burst into life as counter-attacks come into play, but players can dictate the pace via slow build up or exploiting available space to surge forward. It is harder to make long runs from midfield, and successful play will depend on making quick passes to make room."
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Possession Football like Barcelona's,
Like we just watched in the video-clips with Xavi Hernandez and Andres Iniesta; it requires a rare type of footballer who has both, excellent technique to play in small pockets of space, and an excellent "footballing brain" to dictate the tempo of a match; but most importantly, it requires players going forwards and taking the initiative of the game,
This would make you vulnerable to counter-attacking tactics, which is exactly what Inter did when they played against Barcelona at the Champions League Semi-Finals,
Jose Mourinho knew that his players could not challenge Barcelona in terms of possession and attacking talent; however, he knew that they are vulnerable to counter attacks... and therefore he decided to do what any good manager would do: play to your strengths, allow Barcelona to have the ball, hit them on the break and capitalize on any mistake,
The same universal law of Football applied to counter-attacking football, the ball favors no one:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Texklt2bw
http://www.youtube.com/user/rampin14#p/u/5/1weRnUbbrAE
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* football sims: the "pin-ball" concept
Now having just watched how Football works in real-life, how the transition from marking the space to marking the player works in real-life; let's take a look at Konami's latest installment of the series, Pro Evolution Soccer 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lNmCsNFPU
The first thing that stands out is the lack of player individuality when the players don't have the ball,
All the players behave identically when they don't have the ball; therefore, physical attributes become more important, you can basically run circles around a defender, it's more about running than about actually playing football...
As we can see in the video-clip, the essential "one-versus-one" element of the game is hugely flawed and outdated,
There's no feeling of "one-versus-one" going on, there's no difference between marking the space and marking the player, there's no difference between dribbling against a defender and dribbling against the air,
A lot of people have complained about the lack of animations and dribbling tricks, the lack of fluid movements, etc, etc; however, FIFA10 does offer many fluid animations and many dribbling tricks -- did it fix the monotonous "pin-ball" feel of the game?
Let's take a look at FIFA10:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA2WIBcW2SU
As we can see, really, build-up play is not necessary in order to score goals; the gameplay concept revolves around exploiting obvious flaws that are all too familiar by now, giving the game a "pin-ball" feel... back to back attacking with no proper build-up play; FIFA10 feels like you are always counter-attacking,
EA Sports added more detailed dribbling into FIFA10 -- but -- the key flaw still is (as it is with PES) that there is no difference at all between marking the space and marking the player,
The essential "one-versus-one" aspect of the game is broken from the ground up, and as a result, the core of the game is broken from the ground up,
As we can see with both PES 2010 and FIFA10, adding details and more details without addressing the root of the problem... will never revolutionize the Football Genre,
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Famitsu Magazine: "The updates will come in both graphics and gameplay areas. Winning Eleven games until now, he said, have been just extensions of the Famicom era. Players were fine with this through the PlayStation 2 , but the development staff now need to change their concepts and ideas to something more appropriate for the new generation machines like Xbox 360 and PS3."
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The difference between marking the space and marking the player must be there, if the Football Genre is ever to move on from the outdated "pin-ball" concept,
When the distance between the ball and a nearby defender is of approximately ten to fifteen feet, the carrier of the ball and the defender must automatically react and move differently,
The position of the ball should dictate when you can mark the space and when you cannot mark the space; and once you have been compromised in a play, you can only un-compromise yourself by moving backwards and out of that 10 or 15 feet (imaginary) radius that surrounds the ball wherever the ball goes,
In "one-versus-one" situations,
If we don't have the ball, we should not worry about the direction in which we are running, because we can no longer mark the space; instead, the game should offer more control and precision in terms of man-marking,
Marking the right side or the left side of the carrier of the ball, left, right, center, keeping a constant distance between yourself and the ball, moving towards the ball, moving backwards; the use of your right leg or left leg in order to intercept a pass, etc, etc,
If you are man-marking Leo Messi, you would want to keep that left foot of his in place; in other words, you might want to mark the left side of the carrier of the ball if the carrier of the ball happens to be Messi,
We must have more control and precision over man-marking when man-marking is needed; on the other hand, space-marking should be impossible to do when man-marking,
By effectively doing that, Konami would effectively implement an unbiased and unbreakable ground-rule into the game; and this would open the doors to a new level of player individuality, which was the original ambition of the PES Concept,