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Long Dull Boring Games........

MatTheCat

Registered User
I have played the demo for hours upon hours now....

I use the 'Yock' time expander and play 15 minute games.....

Mostly....I am finding my games to be arduous dull boring affairs and to be honest often find it to be more like effort than fun....

To extend the time of my matches, I have to Alt-Tab every game when in Formation settings and activate the 'Yock' patch......

But Sometimes I forget and end up playing 5 minute games....and lo-and-behold....whenever I just play 5 min games the way the demo was intended to be.....I get a bit of excitement!

Now, most of the mature PES gamers know full well that the AI bends the flow of the play in all sorts of ways in order to have the game mimic a 'real' football match.

So the fact that I get much more excitement in my 5 mins games than I do in 15 minutes, is making think that in a similar fashion to the early Juce timepatch which crudely ignored the 'Stamina' drain, which was set to simulate 90 virtual minutes over a 5 minute period.....I suspect that the time extenders which we are all using, are bypassing altering the 'RealMatchTempoSimulation AI', which is why so many of the 15 min demo games turn into long tight-arsed repetative affairs......and the 5 min games are more exciting.
 

PacMan

Registered User
You may be onto something there, since I also noticed a big difference in that area when using a time expander. But I have a completely different experience. Since I installed the patch, I'm finding it easier to win... or maybe it's just that my style of play requires more time. I usually score all my goals in the second half, for instance.
It could also be that I adapted to the new gameplay mechanics just about the same time I installed the time expander.
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
You may be onto something there, since I also noticed a big difference in that area when using a time expander. But I have a completely different experience. Since I installed the patch, I'm finding it easier to win... or maybe it's just that my style of play requires more time. I usually score all my goals in the second half, for instance.
It could also be that I adapted to the new gameplay mechanics just about the same time I installed the time expander.

Dont get me wrong...I beat Brazil 7-2 with France and I do win most of my games....

Its just that they are like........Sheeeeeeesh...

tbh.....the game plays a bit like PES1 did in terms of the flow.....perpetually tight......with any openings having to be truly worked at....(or manipulated by switching formations) this is cos the AI has ceased interfering with the flow of the game to make it 'more interesting'.

I reckon!
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
BULLSHIT SNIPPED!

I take all that back...just rebooted the game and had 3 of the most exciting matches ever with the exact same team and formation....

For some reason...the games were really open and flowing.....

Must be like when my media player keeps banging out Abba when it is set to Random play....sometimes the 'RealMatchTempoSimulation AI' randomiser in PES may get stuck in tight game mode.
 

john4

Registered User
'RealMatchTempoSimulation AI'
is this an actual name for part of the AI or have you just put it into quotation marks and made it up?
 

PacMan

Registered User
I know this is exhibition mode and all, but what Mat says is true. I don't think it's anything wrong with the game, though. Sometimes I fire up a game against Brazil and I'm able to score 2 in the first 20 minutes, and sometimes the game is so tough right from the start! (but with no CPU cheating) I don't think it has to do with condition, because it's always very mixed up, or formations & tactics, because I always start the same way.
Quite an interesting change. I mean, this happened before, but now the difference is extreme.
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
'RealMatchTempoSimulation AI'
is this an actual name for part of the AI or have you just put it into quotation marks and made it up?

Afraid its a made up name for the way the PES engine bends and scripts the flow of the game to try and force 'interesting' and/or dramatic footballing scenarios...

PES6 was the worst of all the series for this and as ProEv veteran yourself, I have no doubts that there was a good few occasions on PES6 where you given a doing from a 'NOOOOOOB' simply on the grounds of 'Luck'. Why did such freak occurences never happen in previous versions of the game???

Its a mathematical probability model.....no such thing as luck in PES6.

I know this is exhibition mode and all, but what Mat says is true. I don't think it's anything wrong with the game, though. Sometimes I fire up a game against Brazil and I'm able to score 2 in the first 20 minutes, and sometimes the game is so tough right from the start! (but with no CPU cheating) I don't think it has to do with condition, because it's always very mixed up, or formations & tactics, because I always start the same way.
Quite an interesting change. I mean, this happened before, but now the difference is extreme.

I like to play as France in the demo.....

And I generally win all games....EXCEPT AGAINST SPAIN......

For some reason I just cant seem to get past them no matter what...even if I go really attacking and play 2-4-4 I get dozens of great chances but none of which seem to go in unless I am already trailing 2-0. On the otherhand, whenever Spain gets a half-chance, the ball always pathetically trundles under the keeper into the net....

Its a FIX.....It dont feel like TEAMVISION AI to me, it feels like SAME OLD ProEV, ALWAYS CHEATING!!!

I do wish Seabass would not do stupid shit like make the AI tend to be bias to one player simply cos he has chose the 'right' team to play against a much stronger team.

For those who dont believe me Seabass has already admitted that he done this with Norway V Brazil in PES5 on the grounds that he once saw Norway beat Brazil in a friendly!!!!

Also, Seabass told that little Rob McLean wanker (Pes Rankings Champ) that he made the AI to favour attacking team in Stoppage time.....YES, THAT IS WHY U EITHER LOST OR SCORED SO MANY WONDERGOALS RIGHT B4 THE WHISTLE.
 

PacMan

Registered User
For those who dont believe me Seabass has already admitted that he done this with Norway V Brazil in PES5 on the grounds that he once saw Norway beat Brazil in a friendly!!!!

Why do you give me one more reason to hate Seabass? Is that true? That's downright retarded.

It should depend on your player's characteristics and, of course, tactics. Not on the badge on your shirt. Total crap.

I'll look into that to see if I can find that interview, or whatever it is.
 

murc

Registered User
I do wish Seabass would not do stupid shit like make the AI tend to be bias to one player simply cos he has chose the 'right' team to play against a much stronger team.

For those who dont believe me Seabass has already admitted that he done this with Norway V Brazil in PES5 on the grounds that he once saw Norway beat Brazil in a friendly!!!!

HOLY SHIT. That would be the reason why I ALWAYS beat those Brazil using cunts with Norway online in that version. The first time I used them I was just messing around and used them because of Riise's thunder leg and time after time after that(because I thought it was me playing well with them), not ONCE did I lose against Brazil with Norway online... I'd lose with better teams, but not with NORWAY. Who the hell else knows what else is scripted in this game? Too damn much already.
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
Here is the best remaining links to that I can find:

http://forums.pesfan.com/archive/index.php/t-86160.html

Interview with Seabass

We were three journalists from Gemany and Switzerland and we were given about 30 minutes to ask whatever we would like to know concerning Pro Evo Soccer 5. So, the questions came from all of us. A Konami CEO translated the questions and answers since “Seabass” does not speak English.


Q: We now got the fifth part of the ProEvo series. So what are the main parts you’ve developed? Is there anything special you like about PES5?


S: We have the online function in the PS2 version in the European territory, and, in addition to that, we have secured some new licenses from new clubs and leagues. And, we have new AI, artificial intelligence, added to the game system.

Q: We realised that you have made some major changes in game play, e.g. in defence, it is quite hard to get through. I have the impression that the game is a little more “work” rather than a game. It is harder to score compared to the previous games. Do you think it might be difficult for casual gamers to get into the game after these changes, especially in the defence?

S: It’s a nice question. I think there is only one way, one right way for defence. So it was easier for me to improve the AI for defence compared with other parts such as attacking and other elements. But in the meantime, I feel I have to make the AI for defence not so strong in the future, in the next version.

Q: You also made the dribbling harder. The ball isn’t fixed to the player as in part 4. It bounces a bit more from the feet. Why?

S: (smiles) I intentionally made the change since I think a football player traps the ball right under his feet. But in the meantime I think there should be more discussion about that point. There might be some change in that part in the future. (pauses) The game player can hold the ball right under the player’s foot if he uses “R2 trap” or if the player keeps the control pad in neutral position. Some players can make good traps.

Q: I played against a Japanese player yesterday and he showed me moves I’ve never seen before in the game. Dribbling, spinning, feinting over and over again. There are so many moves in the game that it seems they do not all appear in the manual.

S: (laughs) I think all the descriptions about the player movements should be mentioned in the manual. So, I think you can check them in the manual. Players can make more additional movement by changing the pace of dribbling or something, so I think you should play more to find additional movement. (pauses) Even I could not imagine that there were so many movements in the game. So, I was surprised, too, about the many movements.

Q: Why do you think the Japanese players are so much better than the European ones? We’ve seen your Japanese champion beating our European champion 4-0. (actually, the Japanese guy stopped attacking at half-time and let the Italian journalist “live”

S: (smiles) I think Japanese players are much stronger than European users because strong Jap game players travel all over Japan to have more serious games with many opponents. And so, I think it’s natural that jap players are stronger than European users. Japanese top rankers acknowledged with each other and they have good communication.

Q: Talking about the strengths and weaknesses of the different players: I would like to ask about the strength of the different national teams in the game. I wondered since the beginning of the PES series: It’s no secret that Brazil is the best team in the world, but there are so many teams, for example Germany and Switzerland, which are too weak compared to the international ranking of the FIFA. Where do you get the information about the teams; why are there so many differences between reality and the game?

S: It’s not only based on the FIFA rankings. I also check various games to decide the strengths of the national teams. In the meantime, I think national teams have similar strengths for the game which I think is good for the game to have serious fight among various national teams. I’m not sure if you know that Norway was difficult to beat for Brazil. So, I’m considering of incorporating such element in the game so that the game will have more serious competition.

Q: In almost every soccer game I’ve played the English team is always very good and I can’t remember when England won the WC. Does it relate to the several markets or is it because England is the founding nation of soccer or why is that? Is it because PES is so popular in England?

S: (laughs) No, it does not relate to the market for it. I always make impatient decisions for national teams strengths. I am planning to develop a good game in which each country’s players select their own country. I think it is a good game. So, I am planning to develop such a game in the future.

Q: How do you choose the teams that are in the game? For example, Egypt, a very strong country from Africa, is missing.

S: As you know, we have the limitations of the data capacity of the current platforms. So, I give the priority to the CL top 16 teams, so other teams could be dropped from the game. So, e.g., if a Greek club team advances to the CL final tournament, strong African teams could be dropped due to the limitation of the data capacity and hardware.

Q: Talking about hardware limitation: why are there no spectators in the stadium anymore? But, when you have a free kick, it’s all full. Is that a hardware limitation?

S: When the players rush to the corner, there are several slowdowns in the game. So, to avoid such situations, I made the stadium vacant, no audience, but of course I think I should improve such situations solve the problem on the next generation platforms.

Q: Talking bout the next gen consoles: Will there be games on the next gen consoles? What improvements do you expect for the series?

S: As announced, we will release PES on the next gen consoles, on X360 and PS3.

Q: When?

S: Sorry, we cannot tell you. The improvement point will be the number of club teams and national teams, and in addition to that, the game will be “more real”. It will be close to real human beings´ ability, not only controlled by AI, so, it will be a more human football game on next gen consoles.

Q: Do you prefer one of the next gen consoles, X360 or PS3?

S: I don’t have so much experience with Xbox compared to the PlayStation, so Í think the team, the WE team, is familiar to PS, but I think the platform will not be so big issue in the future. I will develop a PES for X360, PS2 and other platforms.

Q: Thank you for your time.

S: Thank you.
 

Jake Small

Registered User
........

And you take that to mean he made it so Norway has some weird AI favoring script when it plays Brazil?

You're crazy.

And no, the computer doesn't cheat. It just plays very well at times. The ball is governed by ball physics, not some weird AI-assisted script.
 

murc

Registered User
He kind of, uuuuhhh... said it... up there.

The comp doesn't cheat. It just favors itself.
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
........

And you take that to mean he made it so Norway has some weird AI favoring script when it plays Brazil?

You're crazy.

And no, the computer doesn't cheat. It just plays very well at times. The ball is governed by ball physics, not some weird AI-assisted script.

Yes, in ProEv5 at least, that was exactly the case and it was largely accepted amongst the community as well..

What you seem to forget, is that PES is NOT A SPORT. It is a mathematical model performing untthinkable numbers of calculations in order to display a series of graphics, and sounds that mimic a football match of sorts. The influence that you the 'User' of the model has on these calculations is what input you feed into the model via the instructions of the gamepad.

Whilst many gamers find it hard to divorce themselves from the 'artistic' experience of 'playing' the game and the delusion that we all have that we are really playing a game of football. Anyone with knowledge of mathematical modelling and/or computer prgramming will understand all too well the idea of feeding in different 'values' to the model in order that to increase the probability of a certain outcome.

In PES's case, 9/10 times that Norway is selected to play Brazil, values will be imputed into the AI which will tilt the game in Norways favour...i.e....they will be more lucky....Brazil will be unlucky.....players will be more favourably positioned etc etc...

And it dont stop there....PES6 in particular was notorious for the blatant AI cheating and scripting of games...1 player and 2 player alike.

Hopefully, this TEAMVISION AI will put all that horrible nonsense to rest.....except so far I dont see much change.
 

Dragonfly

Waiting....
The only cheating I found in PES6 was with injury time. If you're winning and the CPU has the ball, injury time is extended, but once you get the ball off them and look like you're about to attack, the whistle blows, and when you're losing, you don't get as much time to score a goal. Other than that, the game seems to be fine.

EDIT: I like the idea of making the Norway perform better/Brazil play poorer if Brazil tend to struggle against Norway in reality. It makes the game more realistic, even though it may be frustrating playing for Brazil when playing Norway.
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
The only cheating I found in PES6 was with injury time. If you're winning and the CPU has the ball, injury time is extended, but once you get the ball off them and look like you're about to attack, the whistle blows, and when you're losing, you don't get as much time to score a goal. Other than that, the game seems to be fine.

EDIT: I like the idea of making the Norway perform better/Brazil play poorer if Brazil tend to struggle against Norway in reality. It makes the game more realistic, even though it may be frustrating playing for Brazil when playing Norway.

Yup, that is what Konami are trying to acheive.... a mathemtaical model which replicates an exciting believable footie game in which the gamers feel they are the masters of and have the ultimate say in the outcome off....

Its just that many of us see through some of the cheaper elements of the AI and its flaws and shortfalls.
 

Dragonfly

Waiting....
I know many people moan about how some passes don't go where they want it to, but that's because when playing the basic passes (i.e. using the A or B on the Xbox or X and O on Playstation) the passes are aided by the computer, so that the ball doesn't get intercepted, which means that the ball can sometimes get played to empty space. This can be overcome if people used the manual passing, which is difficult to master, and to be honest, something I don't use. I don't really moan about the computer putting the ball in the wrong places much any more, only when it's spoilt one of my many excellent passing moves.
 

PacMan

Registered User
In PES 5, cheating got really heavy on 6* difficulty.

Talking about PES 2008, I have noticed that the AI can get tough when losing by 1 goal, for example, but I've not seen (or at least noticed) the blatant cheating of PES 6. You know, you never getting the ball, having it bouncing to an AI player always, etc.

I don't think the ball bounced differently during a "cheating session", but that the AI placed the players where it calculated that the ball was going to go, while at the same time it drove your players from that spot. I'm sure you have noticed that your defenders where suddenly crappy and opened up instead of closing down, so you had to make some changes in tactics and such. Besides, your players behaved as if they were on low form for that game.

The most incontrovertible evidence I ever got about cheating in PES 6 was on an away game in which one of my star players, Joe Cole, got the stamina bar completely depleted in the first 30 minutes of the game (I swear I'm not exaggerating), even though he had a red-arrow form for that game, and was completely rested. I noticed it when I went to replace him in the 36th minute (yeah, I even remember the exact time) because he was playing like crap, and when I saw the bar I understood why. I couldn't believe my eyes! You can imagine how pissed off I was.

Hmm, should've taken a screenshot...
 

Jake Small

Registered User
Yes, in ProEv5 at least, that was exactly the case and it was largely accepted amongst the community as well..

What you seem to forget, is that PES is NOT A SPORT. It is a mathematical model performing untthinkable numbers of calculations in order to display a series of graphics, and sounds that mimic a football match of sorts. The influence that you the 'User' of the model has on these calculations is what input you feed into the model via the instructions of the gamepad.

Whilst many gamers find it hard to divorce themselves from the 'artistic' experience of 'playing' the game and the delusion that we all have that we are really playing a game of football. Anyone with knowledge of mathematical modelling and/or computer prgramming will understand all too well the idea of feeding in different 'values' to the model in order that to increase the probability of a certain outcome.

In PES's case, 9/10 times that Norway is selected to play Brazil, values will be imputed into the AI which will tilt the game in Norways favour...i.e....they will be more lucky....Brazil will be unlucky.....players will be more favourably positioned etc etc...

And it dont stop there....PES6 in particular was notorious for the blatant AI cheating and scripting of games...1 player and 2 player alike.

Hopefully, this TEAMVISION AI will put all that horrible nonsense to rest.....except so far I dont see much change.


Whaaaat are you talking about?

PES uses a physics engine. It doesn't have some kind of weird mathematical model that is unique for every possible encounter. You push left on the control, the game makes your character's foot move left, and then that foot's textures impact with the textures of the ball and the ball moves according to a physics model, not according to whether or not Norway is playing Brazil. Accepted in the community my ass. All that Seabass meant was that he made Norway so that they have qualities that make them good at beating Brazil's type of team. Not that he actually tweaked his freaking physics engine or the AI somehow to favor Norway.

The AI does not cheat. There is nothing in the game that allows a ball to be 'programmed' to bounce toward a computer player when the computer is losing. The ball behaves according to the model. Always. What does happen is that occasionally the computer plays really well, and you think that's cheating because it wasn't playing as well before that and you have some crazy delusion that you deserve to win. When a ball bounces to a computer player's feet, it is probably because the computer is putting players in places where it is more likely to occur. They are probably also zone pressing.

When a computer player takes a shot, that ball flies according to the physics model, not according to whether the computer "wants" to beat you. Have you ever considered that maybe in the dying moments of a game, the computer is just more likely to strike the ball well? To use the proper amount of loft, to position his body correctly? And how is that cheating?
 

Jake Small

Registered User
I don't think the ball bounced differently during a "cheating session", but that the AI placed the players where it calculated that the ball was going to go, while at the same time it drove your players from that spot.

The computer plays the game with all the same tools as you. If this is happening it is probably just good positioning.

Do you really think that in a game where not more than one player can be fully controlled at once, even by the AI on the opposing team, there is some kind of secret cheating where the AI can make all of your players move away from where the balls will bounce to? Then why isn't off the ball movement better in general?

The most incontrovertible evidence I ever got about cheating in PES 6 was on an away game in which one of my star players, Joe Cole, got the stamina bar completely depleted in the first 30 minutes of the game (I swear I'm not exaggerating), even though he had a red-arrow form for that game, and was completely rested. I noticed it when I went to replace him in the 36th minute (yeah, I even remember the exact time) because he was playing like crap, and when I saw the bar I understood why. I couldn't believe my eyes! You can imagine how pissed off I was.
Hmm, should've taken a screenshot...

So you think the computer "cheats" by selecting random players from your team and taking their stamina away?
 

PacMan

Registered User
So you think the computer "cheats" by selecting random players from your team and taking their stamina away?

Any other suggestion?

And c'mon, you must have noticed this "cheating". As you said, the AI has the same tools you have, and I'm not saying that it bends the laws, just that it optimizes chances and reacts faster than any human being controlling the players with a pad would be able to. It doesn't happen always and it doesn't prevent you from winning or anything, it just unfairly wins a few points sometimes and is in overall annoying, considering difficulty in a game should be constructed on the basis of equal possibilities. But, considering you as a human have much more to your advantage than a simple AI, I guess they found that as the best solution.

What, you think a cheat-less AI that controlled only one player at a time and delayed its responses to mimic humans could compete with a good human player? No way.

But we've already discussed this earlier, I think. You'll not convince me and I'll not convince you.
 
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