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Does Anybody Else Hate How The Computer Cheats?!

PacMan

Registered User
@tr1n1ty: Beg to differ mate, losing 7-1 and still going on all-out-attack is not realistic in your country, in mine or in Beijing. I don't intend the game to be perfect, I think that's clear enough, but the AI really lacks depth. 'Cheating' is necessary because every team plays the same. What's worse, every team plays the same every time, home or away, win or lose, final or friendly. I mean, they don't even change their bloody strategy. So the only way they can vary their play throughout the match is by applying 'cheating'.

I agree the term 'cheating' might be somewhat incorrect, but 'luck' doesn't cut it either. It's not just luck. Yes, they get luckier, that's right, but the effect of that is minimal. Rather, there is a noticeable unbalancing that takes place when 'cheating' mode is activated: your players become sluggish, like they're all down-arrows or it was raining, and the AI players seem to get 99 response and 99 balance. They are tackled and get back on the ball immediately, they can force their way through 2 or 3 defenders at once, they can push through tackles and slides and even 2 metre-tall, heavy defenders smashing into them at top speed. And a looong list of other stuff. Not only the AI, though, there are matches in which OUR players will be unjustly boosted, and it is equally noticeable, even when my ego tries to find other explanations. You know, you get all the rebounds, you shoot from everywhere and score, you tackle every ball perfectly, etc.

I know that there ARE moments in a real match in which losing sides will experience 'momentum', to insert the FIFA term here, and things will just work for them, but that only happens once in a LONG while, a phrase Seabass should write on his whiteboard when designing the game. Momentum makes players more commited and alert, allowing them to reach their true potential, but it doesn't make them superhuman or give them the ability they don't have. And it surely isn't there in every match, nor every team is always predisposed for such a phenomenon to take place.

Seabass, make that your personal motto: Only once in a while. The problem with that, of course, is that your AI should be able to play differently on different occasions, something PES still can't do after years. I wonder how the guys designing tennis games got the different players there to actually have different styles.
 

PacMan

Registered User
Well, I concede few goals due to the fact that when I score, I decide to mess with my tactics a bit, and play a little more conservatively.

I'm sorry, but again you're teaching us how to play the game, so I see you've missed the point.

The reason lots of people concede so many, is because they score one and think...better get another, because the CPU is bound to score at some point.

I used to play as you advise up to PES 6, but PES 2008 makes it more difficult than it should be. I mean, it's 15 effin minutes in the first half, you don't need to send your attackers pressing every single defender in my team when I'm passing in the back as if you were losing 1-0 on 80 minutes. It doesn't make the game harder, only more annoying! Some teams DO play like that, so it'd be OK if it happened when playing some teams, but not every one! And then again, how many of those teams can apply deadly pressure the entire 90 minutes? It's just crazy. This is part of what I say in the previous post about the AI having no depth and not knowing how to play in different ways.

I'm not complaining about cheating because I can't win, I'm complaining because I can win too easily, and 'cheating' is only an annoyance I'd like to see removed. I'd love to have a truly challenging game, in which the AI tried to at least understand what you're trying to do, or your pace or style of play, and try to neutralize it, taking into account the difference in quality between the sides, and whether you're winning every game up to that point, losing everything, or having a so-so campaign.

Maybe we're a few years away from that, but I've seen similar adaptive AI in other games (remember F.E.A.R. commandos?), and even in other football games (what about FM's adaptive AI when it comes to tactics?), so why not PES?

EDIT: Regarding the last example about FM, I read something the other day about EA having hired one of the leading figures in developing the FM engine. Can't remember precise data. Perhaps we'll see something like this in FIFA 09?
 

Baddar

Registered User
I'm not trying to teach anybody how to play the game.

If someone rants in this thread, surely they expect people to reply...no?

And if I'm saying that I don't really notice the cheating due to the way I play, then why wouldn't I mention it...is all I'm saying.
 

LEGOFLAMB22

Registered User
Hey Baddar that's fair enough, I reckon you must be a really really patient bloke in real life. A real ice through your veins/never have an argument type.

I used to save replays of the cheats the computer did on older pro evos but stopped doing it as there was no point and far too many! I will start doing it now for you.

Last night I was playing bulgaria on top player in a world cup I'd started and it was 4-3 (lots of cheats allowing them to score) One cheat I noticed that I didn't mention before was the ball from one of their very bad passes somehow defying physics by slowing down loads and spinning enough to make it stay in rather than go out for a goal kick so they could have another attack.

With very little time left - surprise surprise they got a penalty in the dying moments making it 4-4. Now you can argue it and say well maybe you actually did a foul but I didn't do anything stupid and had been defending the same throughout the entire match, but conveniently they got a penalty for a nothing challenge.

I mean yeah yeah - you do get dodgy decisions in football but I never got a penalty for numerous bad challeneges where they bungled into me and never touched the ball in the same game - it's just too convenient they got a penalty in the dying moments.
 

byrnie05

Registered User
I had to laugh at the point that you score a goal and play a conservative game. Oh, how very 'bottom half of the Premiership'. I play the game to attack and it absolutely is not conducive to attacking when you try and string passes, only to pass in the opposite direction to where you told the player to pass and have the opposition mazy on through, magically missing standing tackles, players switching to the defender behind the man with the ball and seeing your keeper leave his line ad-hoc, despite not being called out. Brilliant game. Yeah.
 

mp78

Registered User
I had to laugh at the point that you score a goal and play a conservative game. Oh, how very 'bottom half of the England League'. I play the game to attack and it absolutely is not conducive to attacking when you try and string passes, only to pass in the opposite direction to where you told the player to pass and have the opposition mazy on through, magically missing standing tackles, players switching to the defender behind the man with the ball and seeing your keeper leave his line ad-hoc, despite not being called out. Brilliant game. Yeah.

Too right mate. The passing really gets me. How shit is it when you have strung 10 nice passes together then you attempt a 10 foot pass along the ground to your player that is stood there waiting, unmarked, and for some reason your player attempts to pass completely in the other direction! which usually ends up with the opposition going on a fast break and chance on goal! However much you love PES , there is no defending that shit, if i am pressing up on the stick i dont expect to pass to someone at a 90 degree angle to me
 

byrnie05

Registered User
Too right mate. The passing really gets me. How shit is it when you have strung 10 nice passes together then you attempt a 10 foot pass along the ground to your player that is stood there waiting, unmarked, and for some reason your player attempts to pass completely in the other direction! which usually ends up with the opposition going on a fast break and chance on goal! However much you love PES , there is no defending that shit, if i am pressing up on the stick i dont expect to pass to someone at a 90 degree angle to me

I was that fed up with it I traded it for £20 in Gamestation. I quite enjoyed PES6, so I'll hook up my PS2 again. Next gen my arse.
 

Baddar

Registered User
I had to laugh at the point that you score a goal and play a conservative game. Oh, how very 'bottom half of the England League'. I play the game to attack and it absolutely is not conducive to attacking when you try and string passes, only to pass in the opposite direction to where you told the player to pass and have the opposition mazy on through, magically missing standing tackles, players switching to the defender behind the man with the ball and seeing your keeper leave his line ad-hoc, despite not being called out. Brilliant game. Yeah.

I never meant "conservative" as in, keep it at 1-0 and just play out the rest of the game.

As I've already mentioned somewhere above, it's not as easy to do that on this version.

What I meant was, once I get a goal, I tend to change my shape a little and just take things a little slower. I don't try and just keep it in my own half, because you can't always do that. (see points made above by others about retarded passing)

If I go one goal up, I don't try as hard to "force" the chance, I just wait for the chance to come.

Criticise it if you like, but it's just the way I play. Forgive me for wanting to concede less goals.
 

byrnie05

Registered User
That's fine, but I wonder if the fact the new game doesn't seem to be receptive to playing the running game this year is a reaction to how the Premier League in particular, has become? That said, it doesn't seem receptive to any sort of game, it's just not fun.
 

mp78

Registered User
I never meant "conservative" as in, keep it at 1-0 and just play out the rest of the game.

As I've already mentioned somewhere above, it's not as easy to do that on this version.

What I meant was, once I get a goal, I tend to change my shape a little and just take things a little slower. I don't try and just keep it in my own half, because you can't always do that. (see points made above by others about retarded passing)

If I go one goal up, I don't try as hard to "force" the chance, I just wait for the chance to come.

Criticise it if you like, but it's just the way I play. Forgive me for wanting to concede less goals.

Well you have criticised how everyone else plays if they have a problem with the flaws in the game , its just right if someone does the same about your defensive " italian serie a " style play
 

Baddar

Registered User
Well you have criticised how everyone else plays if they have a problem with the flaws in the game , its just right if someone does the same about your defensive " italian serie a " style play

Trust me, it's not Italian Serie A by any means.

I still score on average about 3 per game...on match length 10mins/Top Player.

As I mentioned above, when I say conservative, I just mean I don't seem to go "gung ho" in search of a second goal, I just take more time in picking out the right pass and building my attacks.

And yeah, it's fair enough if somebody criticises the way I play, but I don't see anything wrong with it, especially when playing bigger sides. If I'm playing a smaller side, with less dangerous players on the opposing team, I can judge how I'm going to go into the game better.

It's hard to explain, but all I'm doing is giving the way that I combat the flaws in the game. People can argue or doubt the way I play all they want, because I still know that it works.

Just something else I sometimes do, if I'm leading in the second half, I tend to use the "defense only" strategy. Again, don't read too much into it, because I don't just play defensively...it just tends to get the CPU to play more attacking and make more mistakes.

In the games I go defense only, I probably score another goal in the game about 85% of the time.
 

tr1n1ty

Registered User
Baddar have you tried world tour mode i think you may like it.
one level i just completed you had to have a pass rate of 90% or more and possesion at 70% or more, perfect for your defensive stratergy if you get and early goal!! I spent nearly the whole 2nd half passing the ball through defence occasionally running forward!!!
 

Baddar

Registered User
Baddar have you tried world tour mode i think you may like it.
one level i just completed you had to have a pass rate of 90% or more and possesion at 70% or more, perfect for your defensive stratergy if you get and early goal!! I spent nearly the whole 2nd half passing the ball through defence occasionally running forward!!!

Nope, is that on the PS3? Can't say I've looked too much to be honest with you.

I only ever do the Master League, although that's been interrupted these days due to a mixture of FM and the fact that there's a lot of "NO PLAYER NAME" players playing for teams in the latest OF update, which is really annoying me. Any help on that via PM would be very much appreciated.
 

tr1n1ty

Registered User
Baddar, i have no idea what you just said!!

On the world tour mode yes it is on PS3 PS2 but not xbox!!
Before pes2008 i would just do the cups then play the master league till the next edition but since pes2008 ive played one game as the World Tour is so addictive, hard but addictive you should give it a go.
Its the best addition to the game and i cant understand why people havent tried it!!!! i am the WORLD TOUR spokes person (self appointed) and for the sake of PES you should give it a go and see how long before you get stuck/stumped by a level, have a look at my world tour help thread just to see what ive been doing!!!
 

tr1n1ty

Registered User
NO WAY FLICK!!!

Ok so now i know why people are getting so annoyed with pes2008 without world tour mode its near enough the same as the others!!

WORLD TOUR MODE RULES!!!
 
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