Can the Gameplay improve??

[Amateur]

Im interested with the shielding concept amateur, and you ude the examples of Riquelme and Zidane.....

I think the "tactical dribble" was supposed to emphasise this feature, as the game manuel describes it as an ability that allows the player to retain possesion more effectively whiles dribbling....

I just think the creators have to increase the number of animations, so that the better players have a wider range than the not so good players...

Maybe awareness could be an attribute, range from 1-5 (5 being the best)

I agree with you -and- that is why I say that the "Old Gen System of Stats and Special Abilities is too limited and generic" -to- properly cover some basic aspects of the game.

The Tactical Dribble Special Ability is something very inaccurate -because- you cannot have a player with a Dribbling Accuracy of 85 -and- a Shielding Ability of 95. It is impossible to establish some KEY differences with such a system.

For example, the Defensive Abilities of a player are basically determined by ONLY one Stat; "Defense" -the- other Defensive Abilities are all Special Abilities; Marking, Sliding Tackle, Covering, D-Line Control.

So, if a Player haves a Defense of 85 -and- he doesn't haves "Sliding Tackle" as a Special Ability -then- what determines the effectiveness of this player's Tackling?? Nothing. And then again, if the same player haves "Sliding Tackle" as a Special Ability -then- I suppose his Tackling Ability is of 85, right?? Too generic.

The Dribbling Abilities are laughable -with- only 2 Stats to determine them; Dribble Accuracy, and Dribble Speed. And a couple of (again) inaccurate Special Abilities; Dribbling, and Tactical Dribble. This just doesn't cut it.

How do you differentiate players -HOW- can I say that Cristiano Ronaldo haves a Step-over Ability of 92 -but- a Roulette Ability of 75??

Examples are endless -but- the Bottom Line ultimately is that the Old System of Stats and Special Abilities is just too inaccurate, generic, and limited -it- SHOULD be improved.

And then again, if the Stats are properly organized -then- there is really no need for Special Abilities.

The Awareness of a player MUST also be turned into Stats -because- that is what determines if a player is a World Class Defender, or a World Class Poacher, or World Class Midfielder, etc, etc.. And currently, Konami haves a very poor system for determining a Player's Off-The-Ball Movement.

How hard can it be to simply include Stats such as; Tactical Awareness, and Defensive Awareness. Is it much to ask?? I think not, only 2 Stats -and- really if you discontinue the use of the inaccurate Special Abilities; Covering, D-Line Control, and Positioning -then- Konami would actually be taking one more (unnecessary) thing OFF the game.

In my opinion, most of the Special Abilities are merely "Guide Lines" -and- Konami should replace many of them with accurate and precise Stats -in- order to cover some Fundamental Aspects of the game properly.

 

[Amateur]

Im interested with the shielding concept amateur, and you ude the examples of Riquelme and Zidane.....

I think the "tactical dribble" was supposed to emphasise this feature, as the game manuel describes it as an ability that allows the player to retain possesion more effectively whiles dribbling....

I just think the creators have to increase the number of animations, so that the better players have a wider range than the not so good players...

Maybe awareness could be an attribute, range from 1-5 (5 being the best)

By the way, the Comparison between players like Zidane and Riquelme -with- players like Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo. The point wasn't that Zidane and Riquelme are better players -the- point is that Riquelme is a different player to Kaka.

It is a matter of opinion, and versatility -because- although it is a FACT that Riquelme is a better Playmaker than Kaka -it- is also a fact that Kaka is more versatile as he can play as Playmaker and Second Striker effectively (because of his great Pace).

So you could say that Kaka is less one-dimensional than Riquelme -because- Riquelme can only play effectively as a Playmaker. So point isn't that Kaka is better, or that Riquelme is better -the- point would be to establish key differences between different players.

So it would be more a matter of WHAT player fits better into your Tactical Scheme?? Wich is something that is currently missing in PES -because- you can basically fit any gifted player in ANY POSITION, and he will be effective (successful).

But anyways, I think a Stat that determines the Shielding Ability of a Player would make a noticeable improvement to the gameplay. And coupled with a Passing Range Stat it would be even better.

 

[muzza798]

What ever happend to you being able to press circle to stop the ball going out. i loved that. this has to be the only game ive ever had that i still play the older version more than the new 1.

The attributes are fine and cover everything. ANNIMATION is where making players act like themselves. It effects shooting, dribbling, goalkeepeping....just about everything you do when you touch a player.

And if im not mistaken they've come out and said there is alot more annimation so that should buffer up the gameplay but atmosphere needs to improve in about a million ways and they need to copy NBA 08's commentary as it emurses you into the game but sound of the fans need to be varied at minimum.

In the ML they should make the fans have an influence on your team and team performances so when playing your matches you feel passionet and caring about what the outcome will be.

The player models need changing as they look weird and samey but they have said their changing those aswell

 

[Amateur]

By the way, the Comparison between players like Zidane and Riquelme -with- players like Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo. The point wasn't that Zidane and Riquelme are better players -the- point is that Riquelme is a different player to Kaka.

It is a matter of opinion, and versatility -because- although it is a FACT that Riquelme is a better Playmaker than Kaka -it- is also a fact that Kaka is more versatile as he can play as Playmaker and Second Striker effectively (because of his great Pace).

So you could say that Kaka is less one-dimensional than Riquelme -because- Riquelme can only play effectively as a Playmaker. So point isn't that Kaka is better, or that Riquelme is better -the- point would be to establish key differences between different players.

So it would be more a matter of WHAT player fits better into your Tactical Scheme?? Wich is something that is currently missing in PES -because- you can basically fit any gifted player in ANY POSITION, and he will be effective (successful).

But anyways, I think a Stat that determines the Shielding Ability of a Player would make a noticeable improvement to the gameplay. And coupled with a Passing Range Stat it would be even better.

I just wanted to take the comparison between Kaka and Riquelme further. So here it is..

If Kaka cannot do what Riquelme does -then- by the same logic, Riquelme cannot do what Kaka does -and- this is because they have different skills. So, Riquelme haves a better Passing Range, better Passing Accuracy, exceptional Shielding Ability, great Dribbling Skills -but- an average (or maybe below-average) Pace and Acceleration.

On the other hand, Kaka haves great Pace and Acceleration, good Passing Accuracy, above-average Passing Range, good Dribbling Skills -but- an average Shielding Ability. And by having an average Shielding Ability -Kaka- cannot afford to dictate the tempo at a SLOW PACE, he must keep moving and use his strenghts; Pace, Acceleration and Passing.

So, Kaka cannot do the same things as Riquelme -he- cannot slow down the pace of a game without losing ball possession, he isn't comfortable in tight spaces -But- regardless of that, Kaka can effectively play as a Playmaker. Although, (unlike Riquelme) Kaka would dictate the play at a much faster Pace, and with a lot more "running with the ball" -because- he cannot afford to slow down play.

And he (Kaka) cannot afford to slow down play, because he doesn't haves the Shielding Ability required to do that. So by slowing down the pace -Kaka- would probably end up being cornered by a couple of defenders -and- because Kaka isn't comfortable in tight spaces (because of his average Shielding Ability), he would probably end up losing the ball.

You can easily notice this differences by comparing each player at their best. I've seen Riquelme at his best in matches such as Villarreal vs Inter (Champions League) -and- I also watched Kaka at his best in AC Milan vs Man Utd (Champions League).

By watching match footage -You- can clearly notice that Riquelme's style of play is more about holding the ball and slowing down the pace, and suddenly killing you with a perfect goal assist. On the other hand, Kaka is much faster than Riquelme, but doesn't haves the same Shielding Ability -and- this is why Kaka's play is more about running with the ball and dictating play at a higher pace.

And TIME is something that is incredibly overlooked by millions of fans today. For example, many Football fans think that Riquelme actually slows down his TEAM -however- they completely ignore the FACT that by slowing down the pace and holding the ball -Riquelme- is buying himself time to think, buying his team-mates time to make attacking runs, etc, etc..

This is why SLOW PLAYERS, or players that play at a Slow Pace include some of the Best Passers of all-time; Juan Roman Riquelme and Carlos Valderrama.

That said, Kaka cannot buy himself much TIME to think -and- consequently his team-mates don't have enough time to make attacking runs -or- his team-mates cannot keep up with Kaka's high Speed. So consequently (ultimately) Kaka is player who dictates play at a much higher pace, with less control, with less time to think, with more Individual Runs, etc, etc.. he dictates play Differently.

So Bottom Line here is that it is impossible to establish these BASIC differences between different players -it- is impossible with the current set of Stats and Special Abilities. This is WHY in PES6, Kaka and Ballack are better than either Riquelme or Zidane.

PACE is Overrated -while- the Shielding Ability of a player, and the element of TIME are completely ignored.

 

[Pierre]

Maybe change positioning to 'tactical positioning/awareness' with it adapting to the specific positions the players hold... again on a scale 1-5

with makelele at 5, and gerrard at 3 for example

 

[Amateur]

Maybe change positioning to 'tactical positioning/awareness' with it adapting to the specific positions the players hold... again on a scale 1-5

with makelele at 5, and gerrard at 3 for example

Yeah that would work (I think) -however- the Tactical Awareness of a player is extremely important to the gameplay.

Off-The-Ball Movement is essential in Football -and- I just think that Tactical (Awareness) Skills should be determined by Stats from 1 to 99. I don't think a scale from 1-5 would do it justice.

Tactical Skills are just as important as Technical Skills -and- they should be treated as such in the game.

That said, the "Tactical Positioning" thing would be a cool feature to have IF Konami includes Stats such as; Tactical Awareness, and Defensive Awareness.

So with the "Tactical Positioning" Feature we could adjust the players position in the pitch -but- regardless of that, the Tactical Awareness and the Defensive Awareness Stats would determine how well the player positions himself in that assigned position.

 

[Amateur]

Anyways, you also mentioned that "clubs are like players" -and- I completely agree with that. A team's consistency is only as good as the players consistency and ability to deliver -because- if you have a team full of inconsistent performers -then- the team as a whole will be inconsistent.........................
QUOTE]

I had a similar thought around this, however I believe that they exsist in the game but just not linked. I refer to the score given to each player after a game that is then averaged over the period of the season \ league and of course the arrows that are randomly given at the moment.

[7][9][8]
[5][0][6]
[3][2][4]

using the above grid type thing above imagine the colured arrows overlaying it, if all players start on 5 (green arrow) depending what the scores are from the first game would dictate their next arrow colour

so player A gets 5 B gets 4 C gets 8

The next game A would start with 5 Green arrow
B would start with 4.5 light blue arrow
C would start with 6.5 with an orange arrow

so on and so forth

But what if your star player gets a blue arrow I wouldn't play him I hear you say, well it depends on your back up really and also does it happen in real life? yes, what do you do to raise moral? give him 20 mins at the end and its back to basics when he comes on. build up the rating again and away you go!

You have a good Point -and- yeah, the arrows and the player ratings.. I guess this is Konami's way of dictating a player's form (and ultimately a Team's form) and Consistency.

That said, the arrows system relies hugely on the Mentality Stat -and- it was a cool feature up till a certain point. However, with the PS3 and the so-called Next Gen Game it is time to improve upon that concept.

Before, the Mentality Stat determined a players consistency -as- players with poor Mentality usually had the blue arrow, wich meant they where not in good condition to play.

I think that in order to improve in that aspect, Konami must include a New Player Attribute to work with the Mentality Stat.

In my opinion, this Stat could make a world of difference; Consistency, and Mentality -working- and complementing each other as a system. And along with that, an in-game Confidence Level gauge would certainly help in that respect.

Because with such a Confidence Level gauge we could see the a player's (and a team's) Confidence Level Throughout a game. So, depending on the players Mentality and Consistency -the- Confidence Level gauge will change throughout a match.

For example, If a player haves a good Consistency Stat -then- he is more than likely to begin the Next Match with a good Confidence Level -and- if the same player is having a bad run of form, say 4 bad matches in a row -then- regardless of that, he would start the next match with a decent Coinfidence Level.

On the other hand, a player with poor Consistency will rely hugely on the Mentality Stat and on performances alone -because- a player with poor Consistency is more than likely to start each game with a below-average Confidence Level.

So the concept is basically that the Consistency works outside of the gameplay (although it contributes slightly to the gameplay) -and- that the Mentality works in the pitch (in the gameplay). So it could be said, that the Mentality Stat haves a higher influence on a Player's Confidence Level throughout a match.

My idea is that the Confidence Level should be represented by a 1-99 gauge. And that the Mentality Stat determines how much a player is influenced by happenings in the pitch -and- the Consistency Stat determines a players ability to cope match after match.

This way, we can have Inconsistent players with good Mentality -or- Consistent players with average Mentalities, etc, etc..

And again, the Confidence Level gauge would depend on the Consistency and Mentality Stats -but- also on everything going on in a match; completed passes, mistimed passes, intercepted passes, goals scored, goals wasted, assists, yellow cards, etc, etc..

So, If a player is having a bad game -then- his Confidence Level will drop (Depending on his Mentality). And if the Confidence Level is represented by a 1-99 gauge -and- a player haves an in-game Confidence Level of 40% -then- he will stop looking for the ball, his Main Attributes will go down -ultimately- making it harder to play with that player in that particular time, moment, or match.

What do you think??

 

[2-Face]

I agree the positioning of the players and individual, own techniques and special ability's MUST be included in pes2009 otherwise the gameplay is not good enough. I have seen More and more of FIFA. What they have added is awesome. So KONAMI should really add 80% of what you said Amateur.

Can it improve the gameplay. yes it can, what we should ask our selfs is shall it work? Has SEABASS secretly working all these year to perfect these things, or was he giving us the same , like you said Amateur, crap again.

You have said some interesting things, things i haven't come up with. I just hope KONAMI, or at least Seabass watching all the boards out there.

But i am confident. KONAMI has seen FIFA. If it's going to sell allot of crap again with no improved gameplay with things included you all mentioned here then the chances are/ it's better for Seabass to just skip 2009 and sit down with KONAMI and have a good talk.Cause the time when pes2008 wasn't even out and KONAMi pushed them then... i mean they should really be on the same line rather than sell us crap for the next couple of years.

 

[Pierre]

Was just thinkin to myself, with the next-gen consoles so many football gameplay features could be implemented. Take for example trapping the ball. You see the best players, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic and Torres to name a few, able to trap a ball that is hit pretty hard in the air at shoulder/ midriff height with either the end of their toe or a jumping instep....

I think it would be great if Konami added the feature that any player can attempt to trap a ball that has been blasted in the air by a simple combination of buttons.

As it stands, a ball lofted in the air allows the player to be moved by holding the R2 button and moving the direction stick...

So as a variant what if you are running and "press" the R2 button at the point at which the digital player is closest to the ball, executing a mid-air trap?

eg. Scholes plays a long diagonal ball to C.Ronaldo... you the player hold R1 to move Ronaldo as close as possible to the lofted ball... then R1 is released and R2 is quickly pressed once to execute the trap...

this video highlights what I mean more succintly:-
http://youtube.com/watch?v=phsS9rYxrds
(at 31sec point shows best examples)

 

[muzza798]

We should stop thinking what we'd put in the game. Yh ok its fun and interesting but at the end of the day the reality is that they have finnished the game practically and now are just polishing it up so i think we should just concentrate on we think they will actually include in it and not some of these radical right wing views we know arnt gonna be included.

If i had to come up with thee single most important gameplay feature that we need desperately but Konami wont include this year is ' Off the ball movement '. How many times do you run with the ball and ur team is offering you nothing so you end up having to take it on and get tackled. So frustrating. Make a bloody run you idiot!!

 

[shaun7]

^Yeah off ball movements were bad on pes 2008. They were better on pes 6.

 

[Amateur]

We should stop thinking what we'd put in the game. Yh ok its fun and interesting but at the end of the day the reality is that they have finnished the game practically and now are just polishing it up so i think we should just concentrate on we think they will actually include in it and not some of these radical right wing views we know arnt gonna be included.

If i had to come up with thee single most important gameplay feature that we need desperately but Konami wont include this year is ' Off the ball movement '. How many times do you run with the ball and ur team is offering you nothing so you end up having to take it on and get tackled. So frustrating. Make a bloody run you idiot!!

That's 100% true in ACTUALITY -however- that's the kind of thinking that allows Konami to keep releasing the same shit year after year after year.

If we fans (and customers) keep posting our own Ideas of what in our opinion could revolutionize the GAMEPLAY -then- Konami would surely produce a better game. On the other hand, if Konami ONLY hears about fans saying "it only needs a tweak here and there" -then- consequently Konami will ONLY do subtle tweaks to the game.

This is the PS3 -and- we all know that it is easily capable of including 20 New Stats and much more.. it is capable of producing a "Complete Overhaul in every Aspect".

I'm aware of the FACT that most PES fans aren't as demanding as I am -BUT- then again, if most PES fans where just as demanding -PES- would surely be a better game today. Because at the end of the day, Konami just wants to satisfy their customers, their fans -and- if MOST of their fans only want "a tweak here and there" -then- that's exactly what they'll do.

PES5 and PES6 where good to a certain extent, however after 5 YEARS of playing it.. after noticing just how bad the off-the-ball Movement actually is, after realising how many BASIC Aspects aren't properly covered (or NOT covered at all), after noticing all the many flaws... I'm just bored by it.

In my opinion, we should keep posting "these radical right wing views" -maybe- if we do it long enough Konami will take notice.. Who knows??

If anything, posting this NEW ideas is better -than- just posting the usual POINTLESS replies about How Konami will NOT include this or that -or- How Konami will NOT do (for the 6th consecutive year) any mayor changes to the Gameplay, etc, etc..

There must be millions of Football fans with incredible ideas -for- Football Sim games. Many Football Fans with better Football Knowledge -than- the people who actually work with the game. I think hearing their ideas can only help Konami.

 

[Pierre]

amateur, whats your take on my air-trapping addition?

 

[Amateur]

amateur, whats your take on my air-trapping addition?

I think it is another ONE of those BASIC abilities that aren't properly covered by the current set of Stats and Special abilities.

Gabriel Batistuta (and Didier Drogba) quickly comes to mind, he was really gifted at winning all sorts of Crosses and Air-balls (Long-Balls).

My take on your "air-trapping addition" -is- that it is something that SHOULD be introduced into the gameplay, and that it is something that isn't properly covered by the CURRENT set of Stats and Special Abilities.

I think Konami should introduce New Controls such as "First-Touch Controls". For example, if you have a gifted player such as Matt Le Tissier (who was renowned for doing the "Sombrero" move) and you're in a situation -where- you're just about to give That First Touch to the ball.

In such First Touch Situations -with- gifted players such as Le Tissier, it would be more realistic if we had options such as; Simply controlling the ball to the ground, or Flicking the ball up, or pulling a "Sombrero Move" (Okocha Move), or using the Chest to control the ball, or using the Thigh to keep it slightly elevated in order to pull off a Volley, etc, etc..

It could be easily arranged, like for example -by- Tapping the L1 button in a "First-Touch-Situation" (either; Air-Trapping or Ground-Trapping), the player flicks the ball up slightly (just elevated enough to pull off a Volley) -or- by Double Tapping the L1 button in the same situation, the player does a "Sombrero Move", etc, etc..

There are plenty of buttons -to- have plenty of variations. For example, by Double Tapping the R2 button the player controls the ball with the Chest -and- by Tapping the R2 button the player simply controls the ball (or executes a Mid-Air Trap).

Yet another feature that could be easily implemented into the Gameplay.

 

[Amateur]

Another Feature that I think would help the Gameplay would be to further Elaborate on the "Arrows" System where you choose the Direction where you want your players to Attack, you could Only choose 2 directions.

I think it would add further Realism into the Gameplay -if- we could also choose "Defensive Runs", How we want our player's to move While Defending, this way we could control our Team's Tactical Movement while Attacking and Defending.

I think something Similar can only help the Gameplay -as- we still don't really have that Type of control over our Team's Defensive Movements.