A Next Gen "Script"..

[Amateur]

Firstly, I want to make it clear that this is Not strictly about PES09.. Maybe PES09 will feature something Similar, Who Knows?? But this Post just focuses on Future Versions of PES, be it PES09 or PES 2010.

Anyways, Most Experienced PES player know this, Games are many times "Scripted" to go one way, to favor one side more than the other.

And, this isn't bad, Not at all -but- what makes it at times annoying -and- what makes it Unrealistic is that the Com. already decides who will have That Advantage before the start of each Game.

So much, that at Times it becomes Easy to Predict When and How the Com. will score a Goal. It just becomes too Repetitive.

Sometimes it favors you -and- other times it favors your Opponent.. But there's Never a Good Reason behind it -as- it is always a Random Decision.

This could Improve with a New System of Stats.. and my Proposition (Idea) is to have a Reason behind every Reaction that Involves the AI.

The system would consist of 2 Stats and a "Confidence Level" Gauge. This 2 Stats will Dictate the Happenings on the Pitch -via- the Confidence Level Gauge.

First comes the "Confidence Level Gauge", a simple gauge to Represent each player's Confidence or Form throughout a Match. It should go from 1% to 99%.

Each Player's Confidence Level should Vary Depending (or according) on the 2 Stats -and- this Stats are; Mentality and Consistency.

1) Mentality - To determine how well a player copes with the Pressure In the Pitch. The higher this Attribute, the more Consistent the player is throughout a Particular Match.

- The Mentality Stat dictates the "Confidence Level" of each Player (and Consequently each Team) during Gameplay.

- The Mentality of each player will change Dramatically throughout the course of a Match; a Player can go from zero to hero -or- Viceversa.

- It all Depends on the Happenings on the Pitch; giving away possession, scored a great goal, Missed an easy chance, passes completed, mistimed passes, etc, etc.. Everything should Reflect on a player's Confidence Level.

2) Consistency - To determine a player's Consistency throughout the Season. The higher this Attribute, the more likely the player will start the Next Match with a good "Confidence Level".

- For example, if a player with a high "Consistency" Stat ends a game with a Low Confidence Level, say a Confidence Level of 50% -then- because he haves a good Consistency, he should start the Next Game with a Confidence Level of 80%.

- On the other hand, if a player with poor "Consistency" ends a game with a Confidence Level of 50% -then- because of his poor Consistency, he should start the Next Game -just- as he finished his last one; with a Confidence Level of 50%.

So the 2 Stats complement each other -with- the Mentality Stat having more of an Influence During Gameplay -and- the Consistency Stat winning more Importance in Longer Tournaments.

And this 2 Stats would Determine the "Confidence Level" of each player -whilst- the Confidence Level of each player -or- the "Confidence Level Gauge" would Dictate the "Shifts" in Momentum throughout a Match.

For example, if a player haves a Confidence Level of 90% during the game -then- Consequently, some of his Stats should go Up for a given time -making- him a better player for that Given Time.

On the other hand, if a player haves a Confidence Level of 40% in the middle of a Game -then- Consequently, his Stats should go Down Momentarily -making- him harder to find on the Pitch.

But the Confidence Level system should change Constantly. For example, if the player with the 40% Confidence Level scores a Goal -then- Consequently, his Confidence will go Up to at least 70%.

So Everything can change at any Moment.. Maybe it takes 10 Minutes -or- maybe it takes 1 Second.

With this said, you may be asking What are the "Shifts" in Momentum?? It's pretty much summing up each player's Confidence Level -and- Determining wich Team haves the better Confidence Level Overall.

For example, if one Team haves a Confidence Level of 80% -whereas- the Other Team (Opposing Team) has a Confidence Level of 50% -then- Consequently (in that Particular Play), the Momentum should "Shift" 30% in favor of the 1st Team.

The Important thing would be to Capture One of the Main Aspects of Football; The Unpredictability.. and Most Importantly, the FACT that Football Consists of "Plays".

Football can be Exciting, it can be Tactical, it can be Boring, it haves Many Faces.. But it Always haves the same End -and- that is To create Plays in order to reach an End Product. Unlike Tennis or Basketball -Football- is a Sport about Creating Plays.

It is a game of stringing a few passes together, building up play, and "eventually" coming up with the End Product. Sometimes a Play consists of just 3 Passes -or- other times a Play consists of 15 Passes, Variations are endless..

In Football Sims, we produce an Average of 15 Plays per game, while the Opponent (Human or Com) produces another 10 to 15.. And out of those 15 Plays we maybe score some 3 or 5 Goals. Meaning that some 30% of those "Plays" had an End Product.

So where am I going with this?? What I'm trying to say is, that IF a game has an average of 30 Plays per game between Both Teams -then- a Football Sim should have an Average of 30 Shifts in Momentum per Match.

Meaning that each Play had a Distinct Momentum; maybe in one particular Play the Momentum was 70% in your favor -or- maybe in another Play the Momentum was 30% Against you, etc, etc..

In a Collective Game played with 11 players Variations are Endless, each Match should be "scripted" in an Unique way.

A Similar System would make each game feel unique and more Realistic -because- more things would Decide the Outcome of each Game, and each game would have a Different "script".

Nothing would be Decided Before-hands, No Random Decisions before each game.. No Pre-Determined Script.

Meaning that each game would start with the same Uncertainty, developing their Own "Plot" with each passing Minute -and- ultimately reaching a Different "Climax" in each game.

Bottom Line?? What better way of Dictating the Momentum of a Match than -via- Unbiased, Reliable and Precise Stats..
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Any feedback is appreciated.. What do you guys think, is it too Over the Top?? Are Next Gen Consoles Easily Capable of such a System?? What are your thoughts on this Topic..

 

[fred741]

Sounds like a good idea Amateur - but perhaps it constitutes a bit too much work for Konami? It would mean a tweak to the gameplay system, and we all know they don't like changing it. Also, maybe persistently getting niggly little injuries would damage a player's confidence, or having offers made for them by other teams might have an effect? Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[PESFan92]

I think i heard theres going to be a momentum meter. Like if your momentum is low, tackles go wrong, shots go wrong, passes go astray. Sounds like a good adition by KONAMI. I also hear the AI is better this year, like say you want a touch and go, the AI will read it and goalkeepers are better

Personally i can't wait for PES2009

 

[fred741]

Me neither...it sounds like it's going to be awesome. I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much, but I'm happy to say that I'm failing miserably .

 

[Pierre]

Amateur, have you thought about writing a dossier of your ideas and passing it onto Konami or maybe PesFan? You have alot of ideas that you would love to see in a game that frustrates you in many ways...

 

[Amateur]

Sounds like a good idea Amateur - but perhaps it constitutes a bit too much work for Konami? It would mean a tweak to the gameplay system, and we all know they don't like changing it. Also, maybe persistently getting niggly little injuries would damage a player's confidence, or having offers made for them by other teams might have an effect? Just a couple of thoughts.

You know, after Reading the Post a few times I realized that Konami are already using something Very Similar. In fact, they already have the Mentality Stat, and the Condition/Fitness Stat -wich- are pretty much like the Mentality and Consistency Stats I mentioned.

However, the "Key" Difference is that the Konami System Decides things before-hands, before the game -and- the Decisions are Random, plus the Momentum Never changes throughout a Game.

Meaning that Once the Com. Decides the Momentum will favor one side -the- Momentum keeps going the same way for the Entire Game.

So you could say that My Proposition is like an Elaboration on that -but- Instead of being Randomly Decided before each game, and Instead of favoring One Side for whole game.

My Idea of Consistency and Mentality will favor each side Differently in Each Different Play -meaning- that the Momentum will change an Average of 30 Times per Game.

For example, maybe in one Play the Momentum is 40% in your Favor -or- maybe in another Play the Momentum is 30% Against you, etc, etc..

Or another example would be if, the Momentum is 70% in your favor, and everything is going your way -and- suddenly The Opposing Team pulls off a Stunner -then- as a Consequence, the Momentum should "Shift" Against you in the Following "Plays".

So, the Momentum will be Constantly "Shifting" (or changing) During Gameplay. And Unlike the current System, the Confidence Level of each player will be determined by Stats.

So every Reaction (or Action) that Involves the AI will have a Reason behind it. Meaning that each game will Develop Differently because of Many Different Reasons..

Each game would start with the same Uncertainty -developing- their own "plot" with each Passing Play -and- Ultimately reaching a Different "Climax" in each Game.

So a whole New Dimension of Realism would be Implemented into an already good Gameplay.

And then we would also have the "Individual" factor.. So even if the Momentum is against you, even if the Opponent haves a better "Team Confidence Level" -you- could have a couple of Individuals with good Confidence Level.

For example, maybe in One Play the Momentum is 60% Against you -while- at the same Time an Individual in your Team haves a 90% Confidence Level. So even in this case, you could end up winning -via- an Individual Geniality.

I think a Similar system is very Possible -because- Konami already uses something Similar. So it's just a matter of Konami introducing a similar Feature to the "Confidence Level Gauge" -and- then just Tweaking the System into perfection.

And By the way, Yes "Injuries" should also reflect on a player's Confidence Level.. Everything should reflect on a player's Confidence Level.

 

[fred741]

The other thing I find annoying about the "pre-destined" momentum in PES 2008 is the way that you very, very rarely score goals in stoppage time of either half, because the game has "decided" that the score should stay the same. So for example a snail-paced defender suddenly outpaces your quickest striker and then clears the ball, which never seems to happen outside of stoppage time. Has anyone else experienced that? By the way, I agree again Amateur, having momentum in matches decided randomly is a very annoying feature...maybe they'll fix it for Pro Evo 2010?

 

[Pierre]

I just stop the oppositions momentum by drawing loads of fouls then sticking men behind the ball, only to break pretty fast.....

mirrors real football ok to me...

 

[FutebolArte]

wait has nobody here ever had a 100% season on top player?

 

[Amateur]

I just stop the oppositions momentum by drawing loads of fouls then sticking men behind the ball, only to break pretty fast.....

mirrors real football ok to me...

It does mirrors real Football quite well.. But many times it gets so Damn Unrealistic. For example, a Slow Defender suddenly becomes faster than Obafemi Martins.. How in hell is that Possible??

Every ball seems to fall at the Opponent's feet, your players seem to stumble for No Reason, Stupid Decisions against you time after time, etc, etc.. It's just too Predictable and Repetitive.

And I must say I plain Dislike the Attitude of Many People in this Forum.. you say that the System "mirrors football ok for me.." -BUT- you Fail to consider that this are No Longer the PS2 days.

If you guys are "OK" with the game already -then- why bother buying a Next Gen Console?? Why bother buying Next Gen Games? I see No point in doing that if you don't want to see any Next Gen Features.

 

[Amateur]

The other thing I find annoying about the "pre-destined" momentum in PES 2008 is the way that you very, very rarely score goals in stoppage time of either half, because the game has "decided" that the score should stay the same. So for example a snail-paced defender suddenly outpaces your quickest striker and then clears the ball, which never seems to happen outside of stoppage time. Has anyone else experienced that? By the way, I agree again Amateur, having momentum in matches decided randomly is a very annoying feature...maybe they'll fix it for Pro Evo 2010?

Completely agree, and that's what I have mentioned plenty of times.. Anyways, I think there's a Lot of things that can be done Now with Next Gen Consoles.

And some people think I'm just some Frustrated Fan -when- I'm Not. In fact, I still play PES6, and I still have Fun playing it.. But I'm also Realistic, and I Openly admit that although the good Old versions of PES where good (and still are), they are full of Flaws that CAN be fixed.

One of the Most Renown flaws is the "Scripted" games.. The Com. already Decides the Momentum of a game -Before- the game even Begins.

Once the AI favors one side more than the other, the Momentum will keep going the same way for the whole 90 Minutes.. that's just Unrealistic.

And the "Arrows" System is Hugely Flawed, Konami can manage a much better System. With the Proposed System in this Thread, the one about the Mentality and Consistency Stat -and- The Confidence Level Gauge..

With such a system many things would be possible.. For example, the Consistency of each players keeps going between Matches -meaning- that the Team's Confidence will Vary between matches.

So Instead of having a Flawed System of "arrows" Dictating the Form of each player -it- would be better if the Consistency and Mentality Stat took care of that. This way, the Mentality of each Player (and Consequently each Team) will Vary with each passing Match.

So maybe in a particular match Team A starts the match with a poor "Team Confidence Level" (the Sum of each player's Confidence Level) -whilst- TEAM B starts the game with great Confidence.

So even if the Match starts with the Momentum Already favoring one Side more than the other.. There would always be a Reason behind it -and- the "Tides" could always change throughout the course of a Match.

 

[Pierre]

Once again amateur, it seems your venting a huge amount of frustration out....

Have you ot lobbied PESfan or somebody of that ilk who have close ties to Konami?

Sometimes its like you come across as a football fan on a phone-in who say "the manager should be playing this formation, with these players and should be spending x amount of money".....

As it stands, no football game has been able to closely match what your proposing, although it may be possible eventually but definetly not in a 1 year timeframe....

I think you gotta be a bit pragmatic...

 

[fred741]

True, Pierre, we can't expect too much, too fast. But just because nobody else has done it yet, doesn't mean Konami shouldn't have a stab at it - that would give them another selling point as "leader of the pack". I mean, it sounds like PES 2009's gameplay doesn't need too much work done on it, and as they're bringing back a good edit mode, they should have more time this year to make new additions to the game. Maybe develop it over the next couple of years to give Konami more time to perfect features like this, then include it in PES 2010/2011? I don't know how long it would take, not being a Konami employee.